| IVOD_ID |
154919 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154919 |
| 日期 |
2024-09-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-2-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期第2次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期第2次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-09-27T10:45:29+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-09-27T11:16:19+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:30:50 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| 委員名稱 |
陳雪生 |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7581ac2c05948052ac3ff2db64862b81b4afc9d995ccd4a25fd62ecd5454ce025a65960676c3fd835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
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接下來我們請登記第22號陳雪生委員質詢委員長早安 是不是請行政院卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢 |
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68.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
陳委員好 剛剛不好意思院長早安謝謝您關心我的健康大家都關心我想托院長的福好不好保重這兩天新聞說這個中央政府總預算被退回了其實我心裡面也很難過那麼在答詢裡面當然也有很多地方的建設我也了然於胸用錢 沒有錢的話地方工程再再沒辦法那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
69.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
97.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我想以院長您的態度謙卑謙卑我想對一個政治人物來講也沒算丟人的事情所以剛才蔡行商副院長也講到希望跟韓院長還有找幾位總召茶敘喝咖啡都可以聊聊天把這個困境解決這比較重要而不是說對抗三黨對抗我覺得這不是上色院長你覺得怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
99.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
121.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
謝謝委員的提醒跟督促我們就是朝這個方向在進行我覺得能夠跟韓院長坐下來談談話我們都能夠了解彼此內心想法那我們只要把這個想法現在如何化成為一個做法實際上的作為我會繼續請我們的部會首長能夠說明清楚主動的跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
122.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
148.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
朝野各黨團說明清楚反對黨的議事也是主要說立法院三讀通過的一些法案那麼行政院沒有照沒有依法行政沒有列入他們主要的抗爭我覺得問題所在是在這裡雪生也願意藉著老命綿薄之力我也希望能夠充滿也能夠促成謝謝這是雪中送炭謝謝接下來都是幾個老問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
152.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
162.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
在這邊是不是也請報告主席,請交通部長一起備詢?請交通部長備詢北竿機場從102年,我們馬祖沒有一個安全的機場,連3C都沒有從102年民航局估計北竿大概4C的機場建設經費需要300億 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
175.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
203.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那麼經過可行性評估還有這個環評都已經通過了當然行政院也核定了200億的預算200多一點的預算做山西機場的一個興建我再次強調 院長我弟弟一家五口在北竿的上空歷難我每次回馬祖去尤其在南竿機場的跑道跟航空母艦降落一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
204.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
230.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
每一次的冊封我想去的乘客都提心吊膽所以拜託院長對山西機場要特別重視這個案通過以後民航局也找了一些相關的部門配套等等這些做事都要做因為北竿機場興建很重要很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
232.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
260.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
執政黨在我們馬祖基層的黨部很像不停的放話覺得說我們老百姓反對我們在前幾天的會議裡面北竿的鄉代也好村長也好一共13席出席那麼有11個人贊成吳晉民投票11個人贊成一個人沒意見一個人缺席所以表示大家是支持的但是這裡面就是興建機場的同時 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
262.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
284.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
會有一些噪音、空污等等我希望交通部回去檢討督促民航局做一些配套的措施那麼這個機場關閉以後有一些航空站的消防員、民航的這些作業人員要到南竿去要到南竿去上班所以坐船的費用等等我們可以優惠或者免費 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
286.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
306.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
對北竿地區的一些商業活動可能也會減少我們可以借著消費券或是幹什麼等等做一些配套的措施來做那麼地方的執政黨部覺得說很像我們縣政府或是立委都不管其實錢都在民航局主政單位是交通部 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
308.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
333.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我們沒有意見是不是請部長在幾個月之內回答我好不好能夠把它完成配套措施配套措施的部分目前正在跟地方政府正在協議正在協商當中 連江縣政府也有提出一些想法在建設計畫啟動之前還有一些其他工程的相關配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
336.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
361.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
建設計畫的期程是不是也請部長告訴我能不能在短短幾個月之內趕快把配套措施做好配套的部分現在跟地方大家都還在討論我們也不是只有民航局我們的港務公司他們也要協助來辦理這件事情所以橫向的聯繫也還在聯繫在溝通當中這個部分我們會盡快 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
363.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
374.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我們希望把雜音剪到最低的程度好不好也拜託周院長您利用你的影響力跟地方黨部講一下不要再去阻擋了好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
374.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
399.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我們有聽到一些關於這個工期較長而且工程進行之後產生的一些影響乃至於未來南北間之間交通的狀況跟方便性這個我們都有聽到但是跟委員我們不會聽少數的聲音但是我們會綜合大家的意見做一個大家地方上最圓滿和諧的方式來進行我希望執政黨的執政黨部跟我們縣政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
402.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
428.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
大家合作 大家團結在一起來 為馬祖地區如果委員認為合適 我也願意到馬祖再去走一趟看看大家真正的地方的反應是如何是是是 好不好另外一個就是 了掉重產 馬祖大橋我想我跟院長提過好幾次了馬祖大橋的興建在107年12月10號由我們現任總統 也是前行政院院長賴清德先生 同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
429.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
458.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
連江縣南北跨海大橋可行性的評估案辦理綜合規劃我們的公路總局也花了一億五千萬去做了綜合規劃這個綜合規劃做出來以後經過我們世西 周院長知道世西嘛世西是我們頂尖的工程顧問一個公司說是民營其實大部分都是公股 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
459.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
480.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
他的可靠性是很高的那麼交通部三次報院院裡面秘書是轉到國發會國發會每次一直退都是以技術性為由一直退那麼在去年國發會把他送到 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
485.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
512.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
跟我說明了花了五六百萬拿到英國去做最後的技術性的一個確定院長你知道英國的人事費多高嗎五百萬我評估只夠花人事費因為對這個整個的海床水文鑽探這問題這些要花很多的錢世襲花了一億多去搞這個東西所以我聽說 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
514.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
540.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
英國這家公司又回頭來問世西底下海底的狀況是怎麼樣水溫是怎麼樣氣候是怎麼樣這樣一個評估報告國發會主委您回答我一下好不好這個報告我們星期一會送到院回來了沒有下個星期一會送我們今天應該會完成他們有什麼意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
542.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
570.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這個可能要報院之後我們才好好回覆我想院長我們講陳無信不立陳信我認為是很重要的這一個案子經過可行性評估經過綜合規劃經過交通部下面的學者專家一次又一次的檢討報院再送國發會已經那麼久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
572.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
599.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
從開始到現在已經有7年的期程了老闆一直說我在騙他們我在騙選票院長我今年73歲我想幹完應該是退休的年齡我想應該安享一些天年那麼院長也關心到我的健康我確實跟以前體力確實差了很多我也希望退休但是鄉親覺得這個事情沒有完成很像我在騙人 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
601.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
628.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我跟他們一直解釋在裡面有他的困難度賴總統也講了好幾次攸關馬祖未來百年發展大計的橋是馬祖人應得的大橋案在自己手中推動一定全力以赴這是賴總統講過的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
631.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
657.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我想請院長也跟賴總統報告這個案子在蔡英文總統手上蔡英文總統答應我了當然她現在卸任了蘇貞燦院長也答應我了OK沒問題那麼她也卸任了那麼現在我們是卓院長我想以我跟卓院長我們私交也好公語也好我希望卓院長能夠跟賴總統報告因為你看金門已經有大橋 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
658.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
686.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
彭胡有大橋甚至楊耀委員要做第二座的大橋馬祖能夠把南竿跟北竿能夠做一個連結兩座機場並為一個機場作為一個連結的話第一個我們把地域面積擴大區域面積擴大都市計畫做一個重新的規劃整理做一個更新對馬祖未來的發展那個是非常深遠的所以這是我任立法委員期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
688.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
699.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
是最重要的任務,我也跟前總統、先前總統都報告了這是我的最後一里路,希望主委長能夠成全,您覺得可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
701.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
719.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
首先委員健康一定無恙一定繼續為地方來轉達聲音爭取各項的建設我雖然過去到現在我們一直知道這座橋的工程從水文從海象從工程本身的進行都具有相當的複雜性跟挑戰性 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
720.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
722.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
國發會主委我是沒見過啦我是希望齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
744.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
765.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我們世襲花了1億5千萬在做這樣的一個技術性的評估你去相信英國花500萬他們寫出的報告你會相信嗎而且他所有裡面的資料很多都是截取我們世襲的公司裡面的一些資料所以您要做審證的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
766.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
767.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
賴清德總統講 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
789.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
815.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
經費不是問題你說預計八年完工我昨天前天找了航港局來他要做旁邊的護體工程護體工程以後對施工的期程還可以縮短一兩年所以不要那麼久的時間所以拜託了院長這樣子一直公文來來去去來來去去來來去去來了六七年你覺得很好玩嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
816.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
843.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我們加緊來把這個事情看看報告之後如何迅速的來做一個方向確定我們共同來討論我還會再問我想我說也說得很煩了您可能聽也聽得很煩陳雪生每天找我都是馬祖大橋的事我們知道委員對橋對機場的關心是一直如此的這個是橋是馬祖的百年大計這個橋跟機場如果能夠連結 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
846.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
868.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我想我們中央政府重視離島偏鄉我這幾年說實在話我對執政黨的聲音是非常小的為什麼我一直抱著感恩的心所以我在崇禎很少去介入黨派的立場介入黨派的立場只有剛才說預算被退回我希望從中能夠做一點努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
868.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
894.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我也希望院長能夠以更謙卑的態度找韓院長諮商找兩位的總召大家都有個下台階把這個事情能夠圓滿的解決因為1月1號很快很快就要到了這裡面有公務人員的加薪加薪是不成問題的那是法定的一個基礎那錢是可以發的所以我拜託這幾個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
896.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
897.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
好跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
904.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
932.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我會請陳世凱部長不僅從一座橋跟一個機場的存廢問題我們希望從連江線四鄉五島整體的交通運輸未來經濟發展上面來做整體的規劃來做一個比較全盤性的規劃我想這個我會請交通部跟經濟部或是相關的部會我們都來做這樣的思考我會從縣長、議長去行政院看院長因為院長剛上任我們考量到你的公務一定很忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
933.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
948.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
所以我盡量不去炒你我可以去我可以去好不好我們盡量但是馬子你沒去過吧去過阿只是上任之後還沒有去過上任的時候我一直想再去走不管怎麼樣連江縣也是我們中華民國的一個縣市當然是縣長找適當的時機 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
952.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
981.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
找天后比較好一點不要你飛機降落的時候在那邊提心吊膽的好不好我還很懷念秦碧的美麗那再謝謝這個委員一直談到對總預算你的關心我再請委員幫忙我也會努力你的幫忙真的是雪中送炭民生有望我在黨裡面我一定盡全力去處理好不好不管怎麼樣他們不看金面看佛面不管怎麼樣我也是一個老幹部嘛是不是他們也會給我一些面子但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
981.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
1003.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
你們一定要很努力好不好不要去對抗去對抗的話不是好事情不是人民之福不是社會國家之福好不好好那交通部長跟主委請回好不好我想請國防部部長有沒有來今天不曉得 顧部長顧部長能不能請您上台一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
1006.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
1019.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
最近這幾天北竿的民眾從鄉長鄉在村長我電話至少接了100多通什麼事呢北竿靶場的事情北竿靶場我講了幾年了我講了7年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
1021.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1046.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那麼顧部長到馬祖去的時候我還不知道我後來聽說他來了我匆匆忙忙跑到機場去給他送行顧部長對不起這個不知道您大人歷歷馬祖我沒有跟你做接待沒有跟你做接待我到機場跟你會個面這個靶場在我們的堂崎淡黃區也就是現在的東區跟西門町的這個比喻 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1048.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1077.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
旁邊是小學、中學、醫院、運動場他不是打槍喔不是射擊不是光步槍射擊喔機關槍在那邊ㄉㄧㄤㄉㄧㄤㄉㄧㄤㄉㄧㄤㄉㄧㄤ的然後他又沒有時間的問題喔部隊他不會通知你啊他可能隨時啊打籃球打到一半了突然發生放鞭炮了不知道什麼事齁這個對我們周邊的噪音也好居民的安全也好大大造成問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1078.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1103.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我講了7年了好 軍方現在提出來了提出來一個A案一個B案A案要4億9千多萬B案要9億多要9億多那麼他的一個原則國防部的立場非常堅定要再拆再建院長清朝的靶場花了20萬塊錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1104.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1132.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
就是弄幾張一個靶勾幾張靶紙這邊對一些草包中間都是草在以前設計是這樣設計訓練的現在你要做一個五億九億的一個現代化的靶場我們部隊有多少部隊700多個人在去掉休假的官兵不過剩下500個人嘛你覺得這個經濟效益評估在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1133.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1162.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
你要做個9億5億的靶場要連江縣政府來出這個錢我們才願意搬走在座的各位領導你們覺得是不是笑話一則我們今天是幹什麼我們準備反攻大陸嗎那我也不去自損自己的威風現在大陸不是要金門馬祖用打的嗎我看也不可能他不要嘛他外海那邊把你圍起來餓都可以把你餓死是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1163.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1183.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
所以我們一直希望就是說藉著金門馬祖跟彼岸的一個緩衝能夠來對台灣跟大陸能夠做一個緩衝我們金門馬祖民眾的心態一直是這樣的當然我們也心傷著台灣一定是這樣雖然有一些因為在那邊自殘 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1185.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1214.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
有一些冠冕堂皇的話我們也不得不說啊是不是不得不說啊所以畢竟啊都是中華的子孫嘛中華的炎黃子孫那我們的親戚也都在對面對面親戚也都在這邊所以這個事情靶場啊部長我跟你報告我在前幾年的總諮詢裡面我說給你兩年的時間如果你繼續打靶我躺在那個地方躺在靶溝讓你打你可以來打我 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1215.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1240.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
你覺得怎麼樣跟委員報告因為現在這個靶場的這個要作為一個訓練用這個是必要的那靶場現在的一個要求在經過這個工程公司針對這兩筆土地實施評估的結果是根據專業評估的結果所需要的一個經費那 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1242.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1272.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
您剛剛也提到了A案跟B案A案的部分是比較錢比較少一點這個是經過專業的評估的我們還是需要這個靶場來作為駐地軍隊的訓練這件事情我不需要拿到議會裡面來向卓院長來討論這件事情拿到國防委員會去報告就可以了去質詢你就好了我為什麼拿到這裡來所以太久了已經7年了我跟你報告明年1月份開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1273.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1293.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
明年1月份開始你們一地訓練500個阿兵哥大概打靶訓練射擊訓練不過100個人不得了了坐船移到南竿去打靶我們不再妥協了如果你明年1月份還要繼續打靶的話我躺在那邊跟你抗爭委員萬萬不可這個國軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1298.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1326.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
保衛國家的安全是政府的責任更是國軍神聖的任務所以國軍必須接受到基本的訓練來守護他這個守護的能力這個是必要的至於說這個過程當中長年來的問題我想顧部長會很積極的去想一個方式跟委員再討論我們如何能夠也符合國軍基本的訓練那也能夠地方大家不再有這麼大的反彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1327.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1353.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那國防部一團死水在那邊一直給我拖一直拖馬祖防衛部跟我講說等中山國中蓋好中山國中現在去標的沒有人標欸馬祖工程沒有人標台灣搶標搶得要死啊馬祖現場要一個一個去拜託為什麼呢缺工缺料工材上漲而且海象不好充滿了變數預期罰款罰得非常重沒有人標工程欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1355.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1369.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
沒有人表明,都是用拜託的所以院長、部長拜託,靶場的事情12月底為止請馬祖防衛指揮部一地訓練可以不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1370.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1397.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
你後面慢慢規劃我沒有意見你後面規劃個10年我都沒意見馬黃布就我了解9月18號已經發函給連江縣政府還是我們還是希望連江縣政府能夠盡速確認這個簽件的薪資用地的範圍縣政府哪來的10億5億啊院長你很清楚吧小小一個連江縣政府哪有5億10億的錢啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1399.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1424.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
怎麼可能 我們五千萬都拿不出來你知道我拿五億而且你這個是清朝的時候蓋的靶場你現在是民國的官還在想清朝的事怎麼可能我是不是顧部長跟委員乃至於跟縣政府我們談一下有沒有新的地方確定可以去談過很多次了確定新的地方之後我們再來想這個後續我建議部長要跟主席長跟財政部部長去談這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1426.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1445.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
因為他們有內規他們的規定是待拆待建而且是建好以後我才你要先建好先建後拆除了待拆待建還先建後拆這個很煩所以我跟院長跟部長報告一個月份 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1446.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1472.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
你不要怪我不客氣我發動全民抗爭拜託委員再給我們一點時間不要說你剛剛說的代猜代鑒或是先鑒後猜就是邊鑒邊猜到年底也不可能完成我們還是在想一個方法不可能完成的啦不可能完成的我評估他去發包都發包不出去所以我們再大家談一個適合的時間方式地點我們請部長跟委員繼續溝通我覺得你們這個承諾不算數 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1473.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1500.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我上一次質詢 全面質詢七年了勒 到現在原地踏步 原封不動老闆已經在罵 立委我說你去找縣政府嘛縣政府說我們公文商業大國防部根本不理我們啊是不是 那我沒辦法啦 他們又找到立委什麼東西都是立委是不是 你叫我怎麼辦 我手上也沒有尚方保健我手上也沒有武器部長幫忙解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1503.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1531.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我雖然很話講在前面但是你們真的要好好去思考一下國防部連想都不去想這個事情有這樣的事我不會跟你們妥協這件事我不會跟你妥協我們還是希望能夠不影響這個戰備演訓的前提之下來進行那靶場的設置是有對我們的戰備訓練是有必要的他預定坐在這裡這個山坡怎麼挖 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1532.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1559.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
這還要環評當然他不是一公頃以上一公頃以上要環評你這怎麼做九億五百個人去做個九百億的靶場我以前在中山分局服務中山分局還不止五百個人你去問他靶場有多大他一直跑到翠山上面去打他跑去哪裡打移地嘛做個船到南竿去打嘛要那麼大的空間來做個靶場幹什麼浪費 真的是浪費 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1562.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1585.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
人家說浪費比貪污還可怕這個就是叫浪費你知道嗎 500個人還會少我聽報宅講金門馬祖還要再撤兵你部隊還要再撤你還要再撤到時候兵會更少所以部長你好好思考一下這個問題好不好那部長我想不浪費時間你請回好不好我剩下的時間還要問一下那個國產署 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1590.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1615.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
財政部財政部是財政部麻煩請財政部中央部長備選部長你再留步一下好不好部長對不起 顧部長因為這裡面牽扯到軍備局再請國防部顧部長備選院長你知道國防部軍備局跟財政部的國產署占領我們馬祖的土地占比是多少你知道嗎馬祖的 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1617.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1637.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
土地 整個馬祖土地 請部長說明是 跟委員報告在馬祖地區已經登記的有2500多公頃那國有的部分事實上佔了88%所以國有的部分包含國防部也包含國產署金管大概佔了百分之八成院長你聽到了沒有國產署軍備局佔領我們全馬祖88的 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1645.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1673.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
百分之八十八的土地院長你如果是林鄉縣縣長你對這個縣你準備怎麼規劃我們只有百分之十二的土地在玩喔是委員一定清楚這一定是有他的歷史的因素歷史你講的歷史更好暫地政務以前是阿兵哥阿兵哥以前根本都沒有人管的那個地方啊我們跟大陸那邊魚啊換來換去交易啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1675.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1699.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那個袁大頭換來換去都沒事的現在管得可緊了金門發生牛疫馬祖這邊豬肉也管制我們養一隻土雞生幾個雞蛋出來還要經過檢查我們已經是次等公民了你說為了國人的安全我請問馬祖人是不是國人金門人是不是國人 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1700.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1701.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
現在國產組我還是麻辣 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
1724.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
1754.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
真的比強盜土匪還凶悍土地的一個情況您也很清楚第一個在辦理總登記的時候民眾如果認為是私有的他可以申請登記部長你如果有空的話我去拜訪你好不好我來拜會委員請你接見我一下好不好我來拜會委員我想請你接見我一下好不好時間可以的話我就來拜會委員因為時間的關係好不好那個部長具備局最近有表現比較好一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
1755.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
1779.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
國產署是表現得很兇悍軍備局啊 軍備局比較好一點我以前總支區一上台就是請軍備局局長跟國產部長下台為什麼 他們做了一些很糟糕的事情好不好 那麼兩位請回另外請教院長今天衛福部部長有沒有來邱部長對不起請邱部長備詢我在選舉期間執政黨地方黨部 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
1784.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
1814.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
一直要求說馬祖的縣立醫院應該改為部立醫院我今天是很慎重的我今天是很慎重的跟院長報告這件事情您覺得縣立醫院改為部立醫院如何據我所知先前的連江縣政府好像有不大一樣的評估的報告不是把縣立醫院改為部立醫院就好了這禮拜要一公頃的土地 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
1814.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
1825.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
雖然之前地方政府好像有不同的見解但是我認為衛福部所俠所有能夠提升離島地區醫療服務水準的工作我們都不會放掉我們都會列為重點在做我想衛福部也已經有相當多的進展 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
1843.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
1843.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
陳雪生議員 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-09-27T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:45:29 - 11:16:19 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢） |
| gazette.lineno |
616 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
陳委員雪生：（10時45分）院長早安，是不是請行政院卓院長？ |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。 |
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卓院長榮泰：陳委員好，剛剛不好意思。 |
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陳委員雪生：院長早安，謝謝您關心我的健康，我想托院長的福，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
卓院長榮泰：大家都關心，保重。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
陳委員雪生：這兩天新聞說中央政府總預算被退回了，其實我心裡面也很難過，在答詢裡面，當然也有很多地方的建設，我也了然於胸，要用錢沒有錢的話，地方工程在在沒辦法推動。我想以院長您的態度，謙卑謙卑，我想對一個政治人物來講的話，也沒算丟人的事情，所以剛才蔡其昌副院長也講到，希望跟韓院長還有找幾位總召茶敘、喝咖啡、聊聊天都可以把這個困境解決，這個比較重要，而不是說三黨對抗，我覺得這不是上策。院長，你覺得怎麼樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的提醒跟督促，我們就是朝這個方向在進行，我覺得能夠跟韓院長坐下來談談話，我們都能夠了解彼此內心的想法，我們現在只要把這個想法如何化成為一個作法、實際上的作為，我會繼續請我們的部會首長能夠主動的跟朝野各黨團說明清楚，那我特別也拜託韓院長…… |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
陳委員雪生：反對黨的意思主要也是說，立法院三讀通過的一些法案，行政院沒有依法行政沒有列入，他們主要的抗爭，我覺得問題所在是在這裡，雪生也願意盡這條老命的棉薄之力，我也希望能夠從旁促成，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
卓院長榮泰：謝謝，這樣真是雪中送炭，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
陳委員雪生：謝謝。接下來大概都是幾個老問題，在這邊是不是也報告主席請交通部長一起備詢，好不好？ |
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主席：請交通部長備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
陳委員雪生：北竿機場從102年，我們馬祖沒有一個安全的機場，連3C都沒有啦！就102年民航局的估計，北竿大概建設4C機場的經費需要300億，可行性評估還有環評都已經通過了，當然行政院也核定了二百多億的預算做3C機場的興建。我再次強調，院長，我弟弟一家五口在北竿的上空罹難，我每次回馬祖去，尤其要降落在南竿機場的跑道上跟航空母艦降落一樣，每一次的側風，我想去的乘客都提心吊膽，所以我拜託院長，對3C機場要特別重視。此案通過以後，民航局現在也找了一些相關的部門擬定配套等等，這些措施都要做。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][1] |
因為北竿機場的興建很重要、很重要，但是執政黨在我們馬祖基層的黨部好像不停的放話，覺得說我們老百姓反對。我們在前幾天的會議裡面，北竿的鄉代也好，村長也好，一共13席出席，無記名投票，有11個人贊成，一個人沒意見，一個人缺席，所以表示大家是支持的。但是興建機場的同時會有一些噪音、空污等等，我希望交通部回去檢討，督促民航局做一些配套的措施。在這個機場關閉以後，有一些航空站的消防員、民航的作業人員要到南竿去上班，所以對他們坐船的費用等等我們給予優惠或是免費，北竿地區的一些商業活動可能也會減少，我們可以藉著消費券或是幹什麼等等做一些配套措施。那麼地方的執政黨部覺得很像我們縣政府或者立委都不管，其實錢都在民航局，主政單位是交通部，所以我們沒有意見啦！請部長在幾個月之內回答我，好不好？你們能夠完成配套措施。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
陳部長世凱：好，關於配套措施的部分，目前正在跟地方政府協議，正在協商當中，那連江縣政府也有提出一些想法，對這個部分我們在幾個月內儘量來溝通。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
陳委員雪生：好，那麼在建設計畫啟動之前還有一些其他工程的相關配套，進入建設計畫的期程，是不是也請部長告訴我，能不能在短短幾個月之內趕快把配套措施做好，比如航港局跟運研所。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
陳部長世凱：是，關於配套的部分，我們現在跟地方大家都還在討論。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
陳委員雪生：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
陳部長世凱：那也不是只有民航局，我們的港務公司他們也要協助來辦理這件事情，所以橫向的聯繫也還在溝通當中，那這個部分我們會儘快。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
陳委員雪生：我們希望把雜音減到最低的程度，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
陳部長世凱：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
陳委員雪生：也拜託卓院長利用你的影響力跟地方黨部講一下，不要再去阻擋，好不好？他們很像希望這個機場蓋不成啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是，我們有聽到一些關於這個工期較長，而且工程進行之後產生的一些影響，乃至於未來南北竿之間交通的狀況跟方便性，這個我們都有聽到，但是跟委員報告，我們不會聽少數的聲音，但是我們會綜合大家的意見，來以一個大家、地方上最圓滿、和諧的方式來進行。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
陳委員雪生：我希望執政黨的地方黨部跟我們縣政府大家合作。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
陳委員雪生：我們大家團結在一起來為馬祖地區做事。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
卓院長榮泰：如果委員認為合適，我也願意到馬祖再去走一趟，看看地方、大家真正的反應是如何。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
陳委員雪生：是，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[25][1] |
另外一個就是老調重彈──馬祖大橋，我想我跟院長提過好幾次了，馬祖大橋的興建在107年12月10號由我們現任總統也就是前行政院長賴清德先生同意「連江縣南北竿跨海大橋可行性評估案」辦理綜合規劃，我們的公路總局也花了1億5,000萬去做了綜合規劃，這個綜合規劃做出來以後經過世曦……卓院長知道世曦嘛！世曦是我們頂尖的工程顧問公司，雖然說是民營，其實大部分都是公股，它的可靠性是很高的。交通部3次報院，院裡面秘書處轉到國發會，那國發會一直退、一直退，都是以技術性為由一直退。在去年國發會把它送到英國去，聽說花了五、六百萬，龔主委跟我說明了，花了五、六百萬拿到英國去做最後的技術性確定。院長，你知道英國的人事費多高嗎？依我的評估500萬只夠付人事費，因為對這整個海床、水文、鑽探的問題，這些要花很多的錢。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
陳委員雪生：世曦花了一億多去搞這個東西，我聽說英國這家公司又回頭來問世曦在海底的狀況是怎麼樣、水文是怎麼樣、氣候是怎麼樣，對這樣一個評估報告，國發會主委，請您回答我一下，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：這個報告我們在星期一會送到院。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
陳委員雪生：回來了沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：在下個星期一會送，我們今天應該會完成。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
陳委員雪生：他們有什麼意見嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：這個可能要報院之後，我們才好回復。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
陳委員雪生：好，院長，我們講誠無信不立，是不是？我認為誠信是很重要的，這個案子經過可行性評估，經過綜合規劃，經過交通部下面的學者專家一次又一次的檢討，報院再送國發會，已經那麼久了，從開始到現在已經有7年的期程了，老百姓說我在騙他們、我在騙選票。院長，我今年73歲，我想幹完應該是退休的年齡了，我想應該安享一些天年，院長也關心到我的健康嘛，我跟以前體力確實差了很多，我也希望退休，但是鄉親覺得這個事情沒有完成，很像我在騙人，我跟他們一直解釋說這裡面有它的困難度。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][1] |
賴總統也講了好幾次，攸關馬祖未來百年發展大計的橋是馬祖人應得的，大橋案在自己手中推動，一定全力以赴。這是賴總統講過的話，我想請院長也跟賴總統報告，這個案子在蔡英文總統手上，蔡英文總統答應我了，當然她現在卸任了，蘇貞昌院長也答應我了，OK，沒問題，他也卸任了，現在是卓院長，我想以我跟卓院長的私交也好，公務也好，我希望卓院長能夠跟賴總統報告，因為你看金門已經有大橋，澎湖有大橋，甚至楊曜委員要做第二座大橋，馬祖能夠把南竿跟北竿做一個連結，兩座機場併為一個機場做為一個連結的話，第一個，我們把地域面積擴大、區域面積擴大，都市計畫做一個重新的規劃、整理、做一個更新，對馬祖未來發展的影響是非常深遠的，所以這是我在立法委員期間最重要的任務。我跟前總統、現任總統都報告了，這是我的最後一哩路，希望卓院長能夠成全，您覺得可以嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
卓院長榮泰：首先，委員健康一定無恙，一定繼續為地方來轉達聲音、爭取各項的建設。雖然從過去到現在我們一直知道這座橋的工程從水文、從海象、從工程本身的進行，都具有相當的複雜性跟挑戰性，不過，剛剛我們國發會劉鏡清主委說下禮拜會把最新的報告送院裡面來看，我跟委員報告，我一定會非常詳細的看看內容如何進行下一步，如何來跟委員做報告，以及對整個案子我們朝哪個方向能夠迅速的來進行或推動。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
陳委員雪生：國發會主委，我是沒見過啦，我就是希望，我們世曦花了1億5,000萬在做這樣一個技術性的評估，而英國花500萬，他們寫出的報告你會相信嗎？而且它所有裡面的資料很多都是擷取我們世曦公司裡面的一些資料，所以您要做審慎的評估。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：是的。委員，其實當時為什麼是用500萬，就是有一部分的資料來自於世曦，尤其是對60米的那個部分，所以我們只是希望再由國外的角度來做一個比較有經驗跟安全的評估，所以這個報告我們會整合就回到院內。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
陳委員雪生：賴清德總統講經費不是問題，你說預計8年完工，我前天找了航港局來，他們要做旁邊的護堤工程，做護堤工程以後，對施工的期程還可以縮短一、兩年，所以不要那麼久的時間，拜託了！院長，這樣子一直公文來來去去、來來去去、來來去去、來來去去六、七年，你覺得很好玩嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們加緊來把這個事情看看報告之後如何迅速的來做方向確定，委員，我們共同來討論。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
陳委員雪生：我還會再問，我想我說也說得很煩了，您可能聽也聽得很煩了，怎麼陳雪生每天找我都是馬祖大橋的事。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
卓院長榮泰：不會，我們知道委員對橋、對機場的關心是一直如此的，我們也非常欽佩。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
陳委員雪生：這個橋是馬祖的百年大計，這個橋跟機場如果能夠連結，我想我們中央政府重視離島偏鄉，這幾年說實在話，我對執政黨的聲音是非常小的，為什麼呢？我一直抱著感恩的心，所以我從政很少去介入黨派的立場，介入黨派的立場只有剛才說預算被退回，我希望從中能夠做一點努力，我也希望院長能夠以更謙卑的態度找韓院長諮商，是不是找兩位總召，大家都有個下臺階，把這個事情能夠圓滿的解決？因為1月1號很快就要到了，這裡面有公務人員的加薪，當然加薪是不成問題的啦！那是法定的一個基礎，那個錢是可以發的啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[41][1] |
所以我拜託院長能夠承諾我，這幾個月到底是做還是不做，能不能給我一個具體的答案？ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
卓院長榮泰：好，跟委員報告，我會請陳世凱部長不僅從一座橋跟一個機場的存廢問題，我們希望從連江縣四鄉五島整體的交通運輸、未來經濟發展上面來做整體的規劃。 |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
陳委員雪生：謝謝、謝謝！ |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
卓院長榮泰：來做一個比較全盤性的規劃，我想這個我會請交通部跟經濟部或相關的部會都來做這樣思考，我再跟委員討論。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
陳委員雪生：我本來好幾次要會同縣長、議長去行政院看院長，因為院長剛上任，我們考量到你的公務一定很忙，所以我們儘量不去吵你。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我可以去、我可以去。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
陳委員雪生：我們儘量，但是馬祖你沒去過吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
卓院長榮泰：去過啊！只是上任之後還沒有去過。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
陳委員雪生：上任的時候…… |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我一直想再去看看。 |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
陳委員雪生：不管怎麼樣，連江縣也是我們中華民國的一個縣市。 |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
卓院長榮泰：當然是、當然是！ |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
陳委員雪生：院長找適當的時機，找天候比較好一點。 |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
陳委員雪生：不要你飛機降落的時候在那邊提心吊膽的，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我還很懷念芹壁的美麗。 |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
陳委員雪生：這樣喔？ |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
卓院長榮泰：再謝謝委員一直談到你對總預算的關心，我再請委員幫忙。 |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
陳委員雪生：我也會努力。 |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你的幫忙真的是雪中送炭、民生有望。 |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
陳委員雪生：我在黨裡面，我一定盡全力去處理，好不好？不管怎麼樣，他們不看僧面，看佛面，不管怎麼樣，我也是一個老幹部嘛！是不是？他們也會給我一些面子，但是你們一定要很努力，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
卓院長榮泰：一定，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
陳委員雪生：不要去跟人家對抗，去對抗的話不是好事情，不是人民之福，不是社會國家之福，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[63][1] |
交通部長跟主委請回。我想請國防部部長，不曉得今天顧部長有沒有來？顧部長，能不能請您上臺一下，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[63][2] |
最近這幾天，北竿的民眾從鄉長、鄉代、村長，我的電話至少接了一百多通，什麼事呢？就是北竿靶場的事情！針對北竿靶場我講了幾年？我講了7年了，顧部長到馬祖去的時候我還不知道，我後來聽說他來了，我匆匆忙忙跑到機場去送行，顧部長，對不起喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
顧部長立雄：沒有、沒有。 |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
陳委員雪生：不知道您大人蒞臨馬祖，我沒有接待您。 |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
顧部長立雄：哪裡、哪裡！ |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
陳委員雪生：我沒有接待您，就只到機場跟您會個面。 |
| gazette.blocks[67][1] |
這個靶場在我們的塘岐蛋黃區，也就是現在的東區跟西門町這個比喻，旁邊是小學、中學、醫院、運動場，它不是打槍喔！不是射擊，不光是步槍射擊喔！而是機關槍在那邊「答！答！答！答！」，然後它又沒有時間的問題，部隊不會通知你啊！可能隨時打籃球打到一半，突然發生放鞭炮了，不知道什麼事，這個對我們周邊的噪音也好，居民的安全也好，大大造成問題。我講了7年了，好！軍方現在提出來了，提出來一個A案、一個B案，A案要4億9千多萬，B案要9億多啊！它的一個原則，國防部的立場非常堅定，要代拆代建！院長，那是清朝的靶場，花了20萬塊錢，就是弄一個靶溝、幾張靶紙，這邊堆一些草包，中間都是草，在以前是這樣射擊訓練的。結果現在你要做一個5億、9億的現代化靶場，我們部隊有多少人？部隊有700多個人，再去掉休假的官兵，不過剩下500個人嘛！你覺得這個經濟效益評估在哪裡？你要做個9億、5億的靶場，要連江縣政府來出這個錢才願意搬走。在座的各位領導，你們覺得是不是笑話一則？我們今天是幹什麼？我們準備反攻大陸嗎？我也不去自損自己的威風，現在大陸不是要金門、馬祖啊，用打的嗎？我看也不可能，他不要嘛！只要把外海那邊圍起來，餓都可以把你餓死！是不是這樣？所以我們一直希望藉著金門、馬祖跟彼岸的一個緩衝，對臺灣跟大陸能夠做一個緩衝，我們金門、馬祖民眾的心態一直是這樣的，是不是？當然我們也心向著臺灣，一定是這樣的，雖然有一些因為在那邊置產，有一些冠冕堂皇的話，我們也不得不說，是不是？不得不說啊！畢竟都是中華的炎黃子孫，我們的親戚也都在對面，對面親戚也都在這邊，所以這個事情關於靶場，我跟部長報告，我在前幾年的總質詢裡面，我說給你兩年的時間，如果你繼續打靶，我會躺在那個地方、躺在靶溝讓你打，你可以來打我，你覺得怎麼樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，因為現在這個靶場要作為訓練使用，這是必要的，靶場現在的要求在經過工程顧問公司針對這兩筆土地實施評估的結果，是根據專業評估的結果所需要的經費，您剛剛也提到A案跟B案，A案的部分是錢比較少一點，這個是經過專業評估的，我們還是需要這個靶場來作為駐地軍隊的訓練。 |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
陳委員雪生：這件事情我不需要拿到院會裡面來向卓院長討論這件事情，拿到國防委員會去報告就可以了、去質詢你就好了，我為什麼拿到這裡來？這個太久了嘛！已經7年了。我跟你報告，明年1月份開始，你們移地訓練，五百個阿兵哥，大概打靶訓練、射擊訓練不過一百個人，不得了了，坐船移到南竿去打靶，我們不再妥協了，如果你明年1月份還要繼續打靶，我躺在那邊跟你抗爭。 |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
卓院長榮泰：委員，萬萬不可、萬萬不可！國軍保衛國家的安全是政府的責任，更是國軍神聖的任務。 |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
陳委員雪生：我們也是保衛，你以為國軍很厲害？ |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
卓院長榮泰：所以國軍必須接受到基本的訓練來提升他守護的能力，這個是必要的，至於這個過程當中，長年來的問題，我想顧部長會很積極的去想一個方式跟委員再討論…… |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
陳委員雪生：不是，行政院主計長也在場嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們如何能夠也符合國軍基本的訓練，地方也能夠大家不再有這麼大的反彈。 |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
陳委員雪生：主計長在場，財政部長也在場，可以處理的啊！國防部一團死水在那邊一直給我拖、一直拖，馬祖防衛部跟我講等中山國中蓋好，中山國中現在沒有人標，馬祖工程沒有人標，臺灣搶標搶得要死啊！馬祖縣長要一個一個去拜託，為什麼呢？缺工、缺料、工材上漲，而且海象不好，充滿了變數；逾期，罰款罰得非常重，沒有人標工程，都是用拜託的。所以院長、部長，拜託！靶場的事情，12月底為止，請馬祖防衛指揮部移地訓練，可以不可以？你後面慢慢規劃，我沒有意見，你後面規劃個10年，我都沒意見。 |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
顧部長立雄：馬防部，就我了解，9月18日已經發函給連江縣政府了，我們還是希望連江縣政府能夠儘速確認遷建的新址、用地的範圍…… |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
陳委員雪生：縣政府哪來的10億、5億啊？院長，你很清楚吧！小小一個連江縣政府哪有5億、10億的錢啊！怎麼可能？我們5,000萬都拿不出來啊！你叫我拿五億喔？而且這是清朝的時候蓋的靶場嘛！你現在是民國的官，還在想清朝的事喔？怎麼可能！ |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
卓院長榮泰：委員，是不是顧部長跟委員，乃至於跟縣政府，我們談一下有沒有新的地方確定可以去…… |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
陳委員雪生：談過很多次了，院長。 |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
卓院長榮泰：確定新的地方之後，我們再來想這個後續該怎麼進行。 |
| gazette.blocks[81][0] |
陳委員雪生：我覺得部長要跟主計長、財政部部長去談這個事情，因為他們有內規，他們的規定是代拆代建，而且是建好以後，你要先建好，先建後拆，除了代拆代建，還先建後拆，這個很煩！所以我跟院長、部長報告，元月份你不要怪我不客氣，我發動全民抗爭，誰在裡面打靶…… |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
卓院長榮泰：拜託委員再給我們一點時間，不要說你剛剛說的代拆代建或是先建後拆，就是邊建邊拆，到年底也不可能完成，我們還是再想一個方法。 |
| gazette.blocks[83][0] |
陳委員雪生：不可能完成的啦！不可能完成的，它去發包，我評估它去發包都發包不出去。 |
| gazette.blocks[84][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是，所以我們大家談一個適合的時間、方式、地點，我們請部長跟委員積極溝通。 |
| gazette.blocks[85][0] |
陳委員雪生：院長，我覺得你們這個承諾不算數，我上一次質詢，前面質詢7年了耶！到現在原地踏步、原封不動，老百姓在罵立委，我說你去找縣政府嘛！那縣政府說我們公文上去到國防部，根本不理我們啊！是不是？那我沒辦法啦！他們又找到立委，什麼東西都是立委，是不是？你叫我怎麼辦？我手上也沒有尚方寶劍，我手上也沒有武器，部長，幫忙解決這個問題，我雖然狠話講在前面，但是你們真的要好好去思考一下，國防部連想都不去想這個事情，有這樣的事喔！我不會跟你們妥協這件事喔！我不會跟你妥協喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[86][0] |
顧部長立雄：我們還是希望能夠不影響戰備演訓的前提之下來進行，那靶場的設置對我們的戰備訓練是有必要的。 |
| gazette.blocks[87][0] |
陳委員雪生：你看這圖片上有，它預定做在這裡，這個山坡怎麼挖啊？這還要環評耶！當然它不是一公頃以上，一公頃以上要環評，你這怎麼做啊？9億啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[88][0] |
顧部長立雄：這個多次…… |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
陳委員雪生：你500個人去做個9億的靶場，我以前在中山分局服務，中山分局還不只500個人耶！你去問他靶場有多大，他也是跑到翠山上面去打啊！不然要跑去哪裡打？移地嘛！坐個船到南竿去打嘛！要那麼大的空間來做一個靶場幹什麼呢？浪費！真的是浪費！人家說浪費比貪污還可怕，這個就是叫浪費，你知道嗎？500個人，還會少！我聽報紙講金門、馬祖還要再撤兵，部隊還要再撤，你還要再撤，到時候兵會更少，所以部長你好好思考一下這個問題，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[89][1] |
部長，我想不浪費時間，你請回，好不好？我剩下的時間還要問一下國產署…… |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
卓院長榮泰：財政部。 |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
陳委員雪生：國產署是財政部。 |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
主席：麻煩請財政部莊部長備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[93][0] |
陳委員雪生：還有……部長你再留步一下，好不好？部長，對不起喔！顧部長，因為這裡面牽扯到軍備局。 |
| gazette.blocks[94][0] |
主席：再請國防部顧部長備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[95][0] |
陳委員雪生：院長，你知道國防部軍備局跟財政部的國產署占領我們馬祖的土地，占比是多少你知道嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[96][0] |
卓院長榮泰：馬祖國有的土地是比較多。 |
| gazette.blocks[97][0] |
陳委員雪生：整個馬祖的土地。 |
| gazette.blocks[98][0] |
卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。 |
| gazette.blocks[99][0] |
莊部長翠雲：是。跟委員報告，在馬祖地區已經登記的有兩千五百多公頃，那國有的部分事實上占了88%，所以國有的部分，包含國防部，也包含國產署經管的…… |
| gazette.blocks[100][0] |
陳委員雪生：88%。 |
| gazette.blocks[101][0] |
莊部長翠雲：大概占了八成，對。 |
| gazette.blocks[102][0] |
陳委員雪生：院長，你聽到了沒有？國產署、軍備局占領我們全馬祖88%的土地，院長，你如果是連江縣縣長，你對這個縣準備怎麼規劃？我們只有12%的土地在玩喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[103][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是，委員一定清楚，這一定是有它的歷史的因素，沿革到現在。 |
| gazette.blocks[104][0] |
陳委員雪生：歷史，你講到歷史更好，戰地任務以前是阿兵哥，阿兵哥以前根本都沒有人管的那個地方啊！我們跟大陸那邊的魚換來換去，交易啊！那個袁大頭換來換去都沒事的啊！現在管的可緊了，金門發生牛疫，馬祖這邊豬肉也管制，我們養一隻土雞生幾個雞蛋，出來還要經過檢查耶！我們已經是次等公民了、已經是次等公民了。 |
| gazette.blocks[105][0] |
卓院長榮泰：不是、不是，委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[106][0] |
陳委員雪生：你說為了國人的安全，我請問馬祖人是不是國人？金門人是不是國人？ |
| gazette.blocks[107][0] |
卓院長榮泰：當然，包括馬祖在內，所有離島都是中華民國的領土，我們對於所有上面的居民、國人都一樣的當作一家人在看待。這個領土，我們更要維持它的安全，所以我也希望大家在這種共同的國家基本認識底下，我們來做更多的溝通跟協調。 |
| gazette.blocks[108][0] |
陳委員雪生：現在國產署，我還是罵它，真的比強盜土匪還兇悍，金門的那個主任我還沒找他來…… |
| gazette.blocks[109][0] |
莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，土地的情況您也很清楚，第一個，在辦理總登記的時候，民眾如果認為是私有的，他可以申請登記…… |
| gazette.blocks[110][0] |
陳委員雪生：部長，你如果有空的話，我去拜訪你好了，好不好？到時候我去拜訪你…… |
| gazette.blocks[111][0] |
莊部長翠雲：我來拜會委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[112][0] |
陳委員雪生：請你接見我一下，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[113][0] |
莊部長翠雲：我來拜會委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[114][0] |
陳委員雪生：請你接見我一下，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[115][0] |
莊部長翠雲：時間可以的話，我就來拜訪委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[116][0] |
陳委員雪生：因為時間的關係，好不好？部長，軍備局最近有表現比較好一點，國產署是表現得很兇悍，軍備局有比較好一點，我以前總質詢一上台，就是請軍備局局長跟國產署署長下台，為什麼？他們做了一些很糟糕的事情。那麼兩位請回。 |
| gazette.blocks[116][1] |
另外請教院長，今天衛福部邱部長有沒有來？ |
| gazette.blocks[117][0] |
主席：請邱部長備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[118][0] |
陳委員雪生：我在選舉期間執政黨地方黨部一直要求，馬祖的縣立醫院應該改為部立醫院。我今天是很慎重的，我今天是很慎重地跟院長報告這個事情，您覺得縣立醫院改為部立醫院如何？有可能嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[119][0] |
卓院長榮泰：就我所知，先前的連江縣政府好像有不大一樣的評估報告，認為還是維持…… |
| gazette.blocks[120][0] |
陳委員雪生：不是把縣立醫院改為部立醫院就好了，這裡還有1公頃的土地，你要擴充面積嘛！心臟內科、心臟外科、神經內科、神經外科、麻醉科很多科都要的咧！這些醫生從哪裡來？它的人員配比、人員配置從哪裡來？金門現在還在後送。 |
| gazette.blocks[121][0] |
卓院長榮泰：報告委員，雖然之前地方政府好像有不同的見解，但是我認為衛福部所轄所有能夠提升離島地區醫療服務水準的工作，我們都不會放掉，我們都會列為重點在做，我想衛福部也已經有相當多的進展。 |
| gazette.blocks[122][0] |
陳委員雪生：不是換湯、換藥啊，你瞭解沒有？部長我們下次再談好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[123][0] |
邱部長泰源：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[124][0] |
陳委員雪生：院長，謝謝你。 |
| gazette.blocks[125][0] |
卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[126][0] |
主席：謝謝陳雪生委員質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[126][1] |
接下我們請登記第23號吳春城委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
19 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
院會-11-2-2 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
韓國瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
1 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-09-27 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1137601 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1137601_00002 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
報告事項 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1137601_00001 |