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張委員啓楷：（9時1分）謝謝院長，請卓院長。 |
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主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。 |
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卓院長榮泰：張委員好。 |
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張委員啓楷：卓院長早安，我們今天來談經濟跟民生。 |
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卓院長榮泰：是。 |
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張委員啓楷：希望不要漲電價，不要吃到進口的壞蛋。今天大概有很多記者都在問你，前兩個月（6月到8月）的電費高達將近兩萬度對不對？用了人民的納稅錢15萬，為什麼用這麼多呢？ |
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卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，因為520之後還有一段整修的時間，我一直到6月中旬之後才陸續在官邸開一些跟部長的會議，我個人到6月底或7月初，詳細的日子我也忘記了，在6月底或7月初，我每個禮拜會使用兩天，但是只有我一個人，我的家人都沒有在官邸，所以這個用電的異常，我也覺得怪怪的，所以我們會請電力單位來做一些用電的檢查，同時我認為我還是要跟國人一樣，我們都要節約用電，我非常謝謝委員這樣的提醒。 |
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張委員啓楷：部長，你平常在官邸的時間應該沒那麼多啊！ |
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卓院長榮泰：沒有、沒有。 |
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張委員啓楷：像前陣子嘉義發生風災，我們就去嘉義東石勘災、上阿里山勘災…… |
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卓院長榮泰：是。 |
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張委員啓楷：現在這就是一個大問題了，你平常在官邸的時間那麼短，這個問題很嚴重，因為我對比了上一任陳建仁院長同樣時間的電費，人家少了你50%，你兩個月用了兩萬度，用了人民的納稅錢15萬，這是一個很重要的對比，所以現在有兩個問題要解決。第一個，院長，你用的是人民的納稅錢，對不對？ |
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卓院長榮泰：是。 |
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張委員啓楷：第二個可能更嚴重喔，你不是講要節能省電嗎？你的電怎麼會兩個月用到兩萬度？有人在開玩笑，你在裡面挖礦嗎？挖比特幣嗎？現在臺灣除了詐騙機房之外，一個官邸要用到這麼多的電嗎？ |
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卓院長榮泰：委員應該清楚，官邸不是我一個人在使用，有很多的安全維護人員，當我在大院在備詢的時候或是在外面，還是有安全維護人員在官邸裡面使用…… |
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張委員啓楷：所以我才會用這樣的對比，院長，所以我才會拿陳建仁院長、同樣是院長的官邸去做對比，同樣的時間點，你多出人家50%，這個趕快去改，好不好？你剛剛講你要去查，對不對？ |
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卓院長榮泰：對，要查。 |
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張委員啓楷：更重要的，這樣人民觀感就會很不好…… |
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卓院長榮泰：我們一定要查出來。 |
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張委員啓楷：所以要怎麼把這個電節省下來，好不好？ |
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卓院長榮泰：是。 |
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張委員啓楷：你要趕快去做這件事情。 |
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卓院長榮泰：4月到6月我使用的時間非常短，它也增加了3,700度左右；6月到8月，我有使用比較多一點，它增加了3,900度，我覺得這個數字都非常的異常。 |
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張委員啓楷：其實不是只有行政院院長的官邸出問題而已，給你看一下，你知道今年中央部會一共花了多少人民的納稅錢幫你們付電費嗎？今年喔！80億。更離譜的，送來的預算書，我們一本一本去翻，明年中央政府竟然要用到101億，暴增了21億，現在不是單純的、只有你自己的官邸用太多，多了50%出來，而是明年竟然一下子要用到101億人民的納稅錢，暴增了25%，會不會太離譜了？ |
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卓院長榮泰：好，這兩個部分跟委員解釋，111年我們電費漲了8.4%，112年跟113年各漲了11%左右，所以加起來這三年的30%，過去都沒有反映在預算裡面，而我們這次把它編了，這是第一部分。第二部分，過去台電吸收…… |
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張委員啓楷：你是說以前都沒漲的，現在一次把它漲足嗎？院長，以前為什麼沒有漲，就是人民不能這麼苦，店家不能這麼苦，所以你才會沒有漲這麼多嘛！你現在變成是以前沒漲的，把原因全部抹掉，然後再一次編足，在上面編了101億嗎？ |
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卓院長榮泰：不是沒漲，是以前漲價之後都是吸收，都沒有編漲價的費用。第二點，現在台電不再負擔這麼多的政策吸收，所以回歸到教育部、衛福部等等部會單位，由目的事業主管機關編自己的預算來支應電費，就是回到部會裡面來，所以在雙重因素之下，電費的編列是比較多的。 |
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張委員啓楷：院長，所以你講的是兩件事嘛！你以前在做政策補貼給某些單位，對不對？你現在要改嘛！這是第一個；第二個是我剛才提醒的，以前沒有漲，不代表現在可以漲，以前為什麼沒辦法漲這麼多、沒辦法補，因為人民已經很苦啊！很多店家跟產業已經很苦啊！所以才不能漲那麼多嘛！你現在倒果為因，以前沒有漲的就全部把它補足，沒有這種事情！ |
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卓院長榮泰：電費已經漲了！ |
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張委員啓楷：以前不能漲，現在就不能漲，對不對？而且以前沒有漲的全部都放在這一次，人民受得了嗎？ |
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卓院長榮泰：電費已經漲了，但是過去三年電費都沒有反映在預算裡面，都是機關吸收漲價的部分。 |
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張委員啓楷：80億還不夠多啊？院長，今年這80億還不夠多嗎？明年101億還不夠多嗎？ |
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卓院長榮泰：委員，你要聽我講清楚，是漲價的部分沒有反映在預算裡面，今年是把它放在預算裡面，把過去三年漲價的放進去。 |
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張委員啓楷：80億已經很多很多了，明年一下子漲到101億，你說這是把它一次補足，人民還是受不了啊！所以這個預算我們一定會嚴審，好不好？ |
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我更期待的是，現在總預算退回去了，我覺得院長可以去想一想，真的！以前沒有漲的，全部就在一年裡面，你要增加25%、增加21億，再想一下，好不好？回去總預算調整的時候，去調一下電費的部分。 |
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卓院長榮泰：過去三年漲了30%，所以現在把它反映在預算上面…… |
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張委員啓楷：你本來就有反映啊！沒有反映的原因，就是以前不能加這麼高，對不對？ |
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卓院長榮泰：是不是請委員在審查預算的時候實質討論，我們希望部會首長跟部會的官員都能夠向大院來清楚說明。 |
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張委員啓楷：好啦！我很期待、很期待，透過這一次總預算退回去程序委員會，不只是原住民的禁伐補償，包括我們農民的公糧收購，明年的總預算增加4,000億，但原住民那個部分預算才多少？21億；我們公糧收購一年也才60億，那個都是零頭，要照顧原住民你不照顧，要照顧農民你不照顧，卻一下增加4,000億，為什麼？現在有機會退回去程序委員會，我拜託院長重新想一下，電費不要多這麼多，這是要調整的。第二個，怎麼去照顧我們原住民？怎麼去照顧我們的鄉下？想一下，好不好？ |
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卓院長榮泰：任何一筆預算都要經過合理的編列。 |
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張委員啓楷：對！ |
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卓院長榮泰：程序要合法合憲，這樣我們才能夠保持預算的完整性。 |
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張委員啓楷：原住民禁伐補償條例是我們三讀通過的；我們台灣民眾黨提出公糧收購，一公斤提高5塊錢，是經過院會通過的，這都是法定的預算，這次有個機會退回程序委員會，請趕快補破網，好不好？ |
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卓院長榮泰：這個可以跟大院再好好地討論，這樣的編列方式如果可行，將來行政院編列預算的法定權利將會被破壞，我們不願意這樣做，但是我們希望各部會在編列預算的時候，能夠具體說明清楚；審查預算的時候，也能夠很清楚地捍衛自己的預算，這樣整個預算的完整性才能完整。 |
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張委員啓楷：院長，今年4月1日調的平均幅度是11%，民生用電只有5%到10%，我剛剛提醒你了，你一下增加了25%、101億…… |
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卓院長榮泰：那是連過去兩、三年的…… |
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張委員啓楷：我再給你看一個，我從你個人官邸談到整體的預算，現在進一步我們來看某些機關，總統府明年的水電費要增加28%；司法院一下子跳了60%。剛剛講了，這是在挖礦、挖比特幣嗎？ |
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卓院長榮泰：委員這種形容非常不當。 |
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張委員啓楷：為什麼總統府的…… |
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卓院長榮泰：委員這種形容非常不當。你說司法院在挖比特幣，這樣形容非常不當，我覺得不要這樣形容。 |
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張委員啓楷：這是民間在諷刺為什麼…… |
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卓院長榮泰：民間哪有諷刺在挖比特幣？ |
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張委員啓楷：總統府一下增加那麼多？院長我問你，這是誰的錢？ |
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卓院長榮泰：大家、國人的錢。 |
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張委員啓楷：用我們人民的納稅錢來付你們的水電費，結果幅度漲這麼高？你不掏人民的錢…… |
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卓院長榮泰：我剛剛跟委員講過，那是三年的比例，為什麼委員都不談論這一點，一直用你一開始的論調呢？這樣我們沒有辦法對話嘛！三年來調整了30%，但過去沒有反映在預算上，這次反映上去了，是這樣的計算方式。在進入實質審查之後，委員如果有意見，可以在審查時跟各部會首長好好去討論。不過這要做合理的編列，這個我們都接受。 |
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張委員啓楷：院長，你解釋是因為三年沒有漲，所以這次要漲足…… |
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卓院長榮泰：不是沒有漲…… |
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張委員啓楷：我剛剛已經跟你講…… |
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卓院長榮泰：不是沒有漲，是三年沒有反映。 |
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張委員啓楷：第一個，當初沒有漲一定有它的理由，而且已經漲得夠多了！這三年已經漲得夠多了，你也反映在上面。更嚴重的是，這次一次漲25%…… |
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卓院長榮泰：報告委員…… |
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張委員啓楷：人民不會接受的！ |
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卓院長榮泰：報告委員…… |
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張委員啓楷：人民是不會接受的！ |
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卓院長榮泰：兩、三年前…… |
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張委員啓楷：如同你說的，審查的時候我們再來好好討論…… |
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卓院長榮泰：4月或9月漲電價時，並沒有辦法適時反映在預算上，委員應該知道這個時程。 |
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張委員啓楷：院長，人民看到電費單都已經快昏倒了，你還說沒有完全反映？ |
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卓院長榮泰：我同意委員的觀點，就是…… |
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張委員啓楷：人民已經受不了，已經夠苦了，你還說沒有足夠的反映？ |
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卓院長榮泰：終結是要節約用電，沒有錯，所以我們全力在做，也鼓勵國人在做。至於預算的編列是反映過去三年的漲幅，把它反映在預算上，但終結還是要節約用電，這個我完全同意。 |
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張委員啓楷：院長，我們今年來談一個很重要的事情。今天最新的新聞說10月1日要漲電價，原來講要漲多少？若不給1,000億補貼的話就要漲12%到13%，現在一下子要漲13%到14%，為什麼突然又調高了？第二個，你們這是情緒勒索嗎？還是恐嚇取財？ |
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卓院長榮泰：先請經濟部答一下。 |
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張委員啓楷：一下子說一定要撥補，不撥補就要漲電價，有這種道理嗎？把人民當盤子、當肥羊，是不是？ |
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陳次長正祺：報告委員，撥補台電是為了改善台電的財務結構，跟電價沒有關係！電價是由電價審議會…… |
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張委員啓楷：次長，等一下。改善財務有很多方法，可以開源節流，有很多方法，為什麼要拿1,000億的人民納稅錢來補上？院長我提醒你，台電的資產可以重估，資產可以活化。既然說要改善財務，那麼這是最簡單的，臺鐵現在不是正在做嗎？ |
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陳次長正祺：是。 |
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張委員啓楷：為什麼不做資產重估或活化，反而拿1,000億又1,000億的人民納稅錢去補？ |
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陳次長正祺：經濟部已經請…… |
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張委員啓楷：我先提醒，第一個，不要為了台電本身的錯誤拿人民的1,000億撥補！然後不要再漲電價，可以嗎？ |
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陳次長正祺：第一點，電價要不要漲，要等電價審議會來決定，並不是政府能夠主導的，而且現在外部委員已經過半，所以未來電價是漲或跌，要由電價審議會來決定。第二點，1,000億的撥補，如同院長所說，由台電吸收之後他的財務結構需要補充。但是我要跟委員報告，我們已經請台電做資產重估、活化資產、改善經營效率、多方採購等等，這些都會照委員指示來做。 |
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張委員啓楷：上個禮拜郭部長在這裡說，如果這1,000億有撥補，應該就不會有漲價的問題。我現在進一步跟你講，根本不用為了台電的財務撥補這1,000億，有更好的方法嘛！台電資產達2兆1,000億，自己不努力、不開源節流，包括能源政策錯誤在內，然後從人民身上掏錢？所以這1,000億本來就不應該給！如果像郭部長上禮拜講的，那麼第一，1,000億要去想辦法，不要再從人民身上撥補；第二，10月1日不要再漲電價了！我問一下院長，你上禮拜五說4月1日民生用電已經漲了，民生很苦，對不對？ |
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卓院長榮泰：4月1日…… |
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張委員啓楷：今年愚人節已經漲過一次了，你上禮拜五說過，而且漲電價一方面會衝擊到物價，一方面要穩定民生，所以你也傾向10月1日不要漲，對不對？ |
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陳次長正祺：這個是政府的期待啦，但還是要由電價審議會來決定。 |
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張委員啓楷：院長，我在問院長，院長今天能不能清楚的跟全民允諾10月1號不要再漲電價了？ |
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卓院長榮泰：好，這個…… |
| gazette.blocks[87][0] |
張委員啓楷：你是比較接地氣的喔，我剛剛已經講了，第一個，現在電費已經太高，人民已經苦哈哈了，對不對？第二個，你上個禮拜也講了，你認為這個會衝擊到物價、衝擊到民生，甚至你之前都講了，4月1號漲了就不要再漲了啊，你今天…… |
| gazette.blocks[88][0] |
卓院長榮泰：好，報告委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
張委員啓楷：你今天要不要清楚的跟人民講不要漲電價？10月要不要漲？ |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
卓院長榮泰：報告委員，雖然電價審議委員會還沒有開，但是我想能夠擔任電價審議委員的這些先進們都會觀測到整個社會民生的需求。我個人認為，雖然我們的民生用電現在是低於台電的發電成本，但是基於民生用電的需求，政府應該想盡各種方法來對民生用電讓它有平穩的機制，不要再增加大家的負擔，這是要的。但是我們的產業結構，這些用電大戶的用電量跟用電單價，我覺得我們就讓電價審議委員會來討論，結論現在沒有人知道，但是我是希望…… |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，你講這個很重要喔，你說希望馬上要開的電價審議委員會民生用電絕對不要漲了。 |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
卓院長榮泰：這是我個人的期待。 |
| gazette.blocks[93][0] |
張委員啓楷：要嘛就去檢討包含工業用電這些，是不是這樣子？ |
| gazette.blocks[94][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是，我個人的期待。 |
| gazette.blocks[95][0] |
張委員啓楷：好不好？這件事是很重要的，你個人的期待是這樣子。 |
| gazette.blocks[96][0] |
卓院長榮泰：所以再跟委員報告…… |
| gazette.blocks[97][0] |
張委員啓楷：如果照經濟部上次部長在這邊的說法，就是10月1號儘量不要再漲了，好，我們進一步來…… |
| gazette.blocks[98][0] |
卓院長榮泰：所以一句話就是，這個討論跟追加預算的1,000億是不一樣的，追加預算就是要來看過去台電支付那麼多的政策目標之後，它的財政及財務上健全需不需要讓它能夠順利的經營，以及民生用電需不需要政府多投入一些來協助，讓它能夠平穩，我們要用這個方式來講。另外，台電花了很多錢做電網韌性的改善，這個要不要增加一些錢讓它處理。 |
| gazette.blocks[99][0] |
張委員啓楷：好，因為電價審議委員會馬上就要開了，我們要決定10月1號要不要漲電價。 |
| gazette.blocks[100][0] |
卓院長榮泰：這不是我決定的。 |
| gazette.blocks[101][0] |
張委員啓楷：但大家生氣的是今天媒體已經講了，不只是原來的12%至13%，它一下子要漲13%至14%，但我們經過今天這樣的對話，以人民為主，我們儘量民生用電不要再去碰到了，甚至更進一步的，老實講…… |
| gazette.blocks[102][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我只能說這是我的…… |
| gazette.blocks[103][0] |
張委員啓楷：現在很多產業用電也是很辛苦，儘量…… |
| gazette.blocks[104][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我只能說這是我個人的想法…… |
| gazette.blocks[105][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長、院長，我做個簡單的結論，第一個，我們儘量往10月1號不要漲電價方向去走，好不好？我們儘量往這個方向去走。 |
| gazette.blocks[105][1] |
OK，接下來我們來討論1,000億的部分，你在別的地方可以找到這1,000億啊，為什麼每一次都要從大家、人民的口袋裡面去掏錢呢？大家看一下，從2022年12月開始，你們透過認股增資1,500億，特別預算500億，然後經濟部又認股增資1,000億，過去3年已經拿了人民的納稅錢3,000億去補了台電。另外，大家看一下右邊這個表，過去三年漲了三次電價，一次漲8.4%，一次漲11%，一次漲11%，三年漲了30%！院長，我現在要提醒你，最重要的是什麼？你現在看到一個趨勢了，撥補、漲價，撥補、漲價，撥補、漲價，結果問題有解決嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[106][0] |
卓院長榮泰：沒有，因為…… |
| gazette.blocks[107][0] |
張委員啓楷：對啊，去年底的時候，三千八百多億的這個虧損，你們說今年4月1號讓我漲一下電價，結果虧損越來越嚴重啊，現在變成無底洞，就表示你現在用撥補，院長，你現在用撥補和漲人民的電價，你不只沒有解決問題，你變成一個無底洞啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[108][0] |
卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這個每次漲價都沒有漲到應該有的成本，這個是政策…… |
| gazette.blocks[109][0] |
張委員啓楷：你又繞回來了，人民已經很苦，當然就不能再漲啊，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[110][0] |
卓院長榮泰：所以要用撥補的方式來填補這個財務的狀況，今年4月漲價之後…… |
| gazette.blocks[111][0] |
張委員啓楷：可是你現在就是一方面還是要漲電價，10月1號馬上就要漲…… |
| gazette.blocks[112][0] |
卓院長榮泰：但是我說過去…… |
| gazette.blocks[113][0] |
張委員啓楷：第二個，你還是要撥補啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[114][0] |
卓院長榮泰：所以今年4月漲價之後，我現在數字忘記了，台電的營收狀況有所改善，漲價之後有所改善，但距離它的成本當然還是有相當的距離啦。這一次希望電價審議委員會能夠在這個時機點做什麼樣的決定，我們就尊重。 |
| gazette.blocks[115][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，透過我們這樣對話你有沒有發現，你在講漲電價的同時，在講撥補的時候，你都解決不了問題，就是台電的虧損是越來越大的，有發現這個問題嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[116][0] |
卓院長榮泰：因為過去它就是…… |
| gazette.blocks[117][0] |
張委員啓楷：如果行政院長和現在的執政黨沒有辦法解決問題，只能從人民的身上去掏錢撥補…… |
| gazette.blocks[118][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們就是要解決問題…… |
| gazette.blocks[119][0] |
張委員啓楷：一直漲電價，人民對你們不會很失望嗎？人民不會很苦嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[120][0] |
卓院長榮泰：也許委員認為是左手跟右手，目的事業主管機關來付或台電來付，在委員看也許是左手、右手，但是就台電來看，就是它財務能不能健全、經營能不能適妥的一個方式。現在我們就是把它的很多補貼政策移到目的事業主管機關來，希望台電能夠真正的自立、自營的來經營它的…… |
| gazette.blocks[121][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，你現在提了一個方法，就是用政策補貼的要改回去啦，例如說可能各個機關以前是台電負擔的，這個我贊成…… |
| gazette.blocks[122][0] |
卓院長榮泰：這才是一個正常之道。 |
| gazette.blocks[123][0] |
張委員啓楷：可是我要再提醒你，這個是杯水車薪，真正的財務解決要從根做起，最簡單的嘛，我們從國小就唸過…… |
| gazette.blocks[124][0] |
卓院長榮泰：好、好，我們就從這個地方開始大力地來推動。 |
| gazette.blocks[125][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，解決方法我們從國小就唸過了，開源節流嘛，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[126][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[127][0] |
張委員啓楷：開源節流嘛，我剛剛給你看的就是節流，從你的官邸到各個機關用的水電費，一直到各個機關，包括總統府跟司法院，不要用那麼多的電，你叫人民要省電，結果政府「歹鬼𤆬頭」，你們是「歹鬼𤆬頭」嘛！所以我們來得及補破網，院長，來得及補破網，趕快把政府的用電跟上人民的省電，金額不要那麼多，這是要省的嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[128][0] |
卓院長榮泰：好，我也承諾官邸的用電狀況我們一定馬上查清楚，跟大家報告。 |
| gazette.blocks[129][0] |
張委員啓楷：好，解決方法很簡單嘛，就是開源節流，你提的是開源節流的一部分嘛，對不對？政策補貼改變了嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[129][1] |
來，我們看一下，其實我們的電價應該是往下降而不是往上漲，每次你們要漲的時候，這是一個最重要的因素，你們每次都說俄烏戰爭以後天然氣價格暴漲，院長，我給你看一下，我們來看這張圖，這是天然氣最近這幾年的趨勢圖，給大家看一下這個圖，院長，你有看到嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[130][0] |
卓院長榮泰：有，我看到2022年跟2023年很高啊！不是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[131][0] |
張委員啓楷：你看喔，天然氣價格最暴增的時候就是在上面那個2022年到2023年，可是你有發現嗎？2023年就往下掉了。 |
| gazette.blocks[132][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[133][0] |
張委員啓楷：現在民國幾年？現在2024年嘛，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[134][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[135][0] |
張委員啓楷：2024年，你看右邊這個圖跟左邊的2017年、2018年相比，現在國際天然氣的價格從去年、2023年就開始掉了，掉到現在比2017年跟2018年還低，是不是這樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[136][0] |
卓院長榮泰：所以剛剛和委員報告，4月之後台電的盈餘狀況是有所改善的，跟這個也有相關啦。 |
| gazette.blocks[137][0] |
張委員啓楷：對啊，所以…… |
| gazette.blocks[138][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我剛剛已經講過啦。 |
| gazette.blocks[139][0] |
張委員啓楷：所以院長，這個就很重要，所以電費應該要降啊，你怎麼反而往上飆呢？你的成本，你的購電成本在往下掉的時候，竟然電費不是降而是往上…… |
| gazette.blocks[140][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是成本的關係，我們電費的原則第一個是反映成本，第二個是照顧民生，第三個是穩定物價，再來是節能減碳，所以第一個要反映成本，過去都沒有辦法反映成本，因為原料也高，各種都很高，現在是儘量把它接近成本。 |
| gazette.blocks[141][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，是你們跟大家說的，從上一任的總統跟院長，到你這一任的院長跟總統，還有經濟部，你們一直跟我們講為什麼虧損會那麼嚴重，包括要漲電價，你們的購電成本還是高的嘛，所以我今天給你看啊，你們一直講天然氣啊，但這個圖清清楚楚了吧，它已經掉下來了！ |
| gazette.blocks[142][0] |
卓院長榮泰：所以今年是改善的啊，今年是改善的…… |
| gazette.blocks[143][0] |
張委員啓楷：所以院長…… |
| gazette.blocks[144][0] |
卓院長榮泰：但過去虧損太多…… |
| gazette.blocks[145][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，所以改善了！院長、院長，既然改善了，所以電價是不是要往下降？你怎麼往上調？ |
| gazette.blocks[146][0] |
卓院長榮泰：過去虧損太多，我們距離成本還是有距離的，距離發電成本還是有距離的。 |
| gazette.blocks[147][0] |
張委員啓楷：你已經在過去3年撥補了3,000億以上，然後你也已經漲了3次電價了，你還跟我說還撥不夠？ |
| gazette.blocks[147][1] |
次長，你不要講。 |
| gazette.blocks[147][2] |
來，你已經撥補那麼多，也漲了那麼多，我再重複一次好不好，3年撥補了3,000億以上，3年漲價漲了30%以上，你不就是該補起來了嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[148][0] |
卓院長榮泰：那有相當的比例…… |
| gazette.blocks[149][0] |
張委員啓楷：怎麼還補不夠呢？這是第一點。 |
| gazette.blocks[149][1] |
第二個，你們一直掛在嘴邊的是什麼？天然氣的價格…… |
| gazette.blocks[150][0] |
卓院長榮泰：那是台電負擔很多的補貼政策，政府必須做這些補貼政策…… |
| gazette.blocks[151][0] |
張委員啓楷：你又繞回去了，補貼的不是你剛才說了嘛，我贊成嘛，你回去…… |
| gazette.blocks[152][0] |
卓院長榮泰：還有民生用電一直是低於成本的，所以政府也要穩定民生用電的成本計算，不要漲太多的民生用電，這個是已經存在多年的事實，所以它的財務狀況一直不是很好，尤其到了2022年、2023年整個燃料、能源上漲之後，它的級距是加深的。今年我們在4月調漲之後，以及現在能源的變化，今年度4月之後到現在是有所改善的，但過去的虧損仍然很多，就是那兩個原因，一個是穩定民生，一個就是政策的支應。現在我們把政策這部分回到各目的事業主管機關，我們希望用追加預算來填補民生用電的部分，這樣，我們期待一年、兩年之後的台電所呈現出來的，跟現在的經營狀況會有所不同。那天郭部長在這裡也很大聲的說，兩年之內他希望能夠有所改善，希望給經濟部這樣一段時間，也給辛苦、努力的台電同仁一個鼓勵。 |
| gazette.blocks[153][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，我們臺灣人民的水準是很高的。 |
| gazette.blocks[154][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[155][0] |
張委員啓楷：我想從這個圖很清楚的看出來，就是前幾年政府一直在講，因為天然氣價格暴增，所以電費必須漲，今天很清楚，從這個圖看出來，拜託一下，現在電費應該是考慮要往下降了，不是再往上漲，我進一步來…… |
| gazette.blocks[156][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們現在的電價跟發電成本還有距離。 |
| gazette.blocks[157][0] |
張委員啓楷：為什麼？對，問題來了，為什麼？你的發電成本應該是往下降，你用天然氣用那麼多，你以前漲電價，發電成本高也是因為天然氣，現在天然氣價格降啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[158][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們以氣換煤，這個是政策…… |
| gazette.blocks[159][0] |
張委員啓楷：來來來，所以問題出在什麼地方？一定還有另外一個漏洞，你沒有跟人民講，你有一個沒有跟人民講的真相。為什麼成本還在增加？天然氣明明已經降了，為什麼？這段時間出了什麼問題？你們廢核嘛！對不對？來，院長，我給你看一下…… |
| gazette.blocks[160][0] |
卓院長榮泰：不是，不是。現在核能的比例已經相當低了，所以核能發電的部分並不能降低太多的成本，因為現在是在彌補過去的狀況，過去的補貼政策，現在台電的財務是不健全的，希望能夠讓它的財務健全，兩年之後，那天郭部長講了，他很勇敢而且負責任的講，兩年之內要讓台電的經營能夠順暢，能夠進入到一個正常的經營狀態，那我們應該給台電這樣努力的空間，所以，我們儘量把它的財務狀況調得比較健全一點，不要負擔太多的政策責任。 |
| gazette.blocks[161][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，台電的要怎麼樣做才可以財務健全？ |
| gazette.blocks[162][0] |
卓院長榮泰：很多方式，可以討論…… |
| gazette.blocks[163][0] |
張委員啓楷：它本來是金雞母，回到剛剛那張圖給大家看一下，台電是一個金雞母，回到上面那張圖，台電為什麼從金雞母變成敗家子？你一直講財務的問題，你看喔！2017年、2018年的時候，台電都還是金雞母，都還是賺錢的。2017年，那時候台電賺多少錢？118億；2018年的時候還賺了35億，光是今年，2024年不只沒有賺錢，還要淨損2,124億，為什麼有這麼大的落差？ |
| gazette.blocks[164][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我也非常不能接受…… |
| gazette.blocks[165][0] |
張委員啓楷：你同樣用天然氣，現在天然氣的價格已經比2017年跟18年還低了，那時候是賺錢的，為什麼現在賠這麼多？你在講財務，問題在哪裡？我們看下一張，好不好，院長…… |
| gazette.blocks[166][0] |
卓院長榮泰：賠的就是兩、三年前…… |
| gazette.blocks[167][0] |
張委員啓楷：問題在你剛剛講的，你把核電廢掉之後，你有跟人民講嗎？你廢掉核電之後我們每一年要增加多少錢，你有跟人民講過這個事嗎？這就是你所謂的財務。院長，最便宜的電是什麼電？我們看下一張，你看台電，你知道核電一度電成本是多少？ |
| gazette.blocks[168][0] |
卓院長榮泰：當然，核電你在現場買很便宜，售後服務就很貴。 |
| gazette.blocks[169][0] |
張委員啓楷：你在講的售後服務，那部分有核後端基金，你不曉得這件事嗎？核後端基金已經有4,000多億擺在那裡啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[170][0] |
卓院長榮泰：對，但是報告委員，那也是人民的錢，不是嗎？那也是人民的錢啊。 |
| gazette.blocks[171][0] |
張委員啓楷：對啊，你的再生能源買很貴啊，現在是兩個問題嘛！你在講財務，你現在出了問題，我剛剛跟你講…… |
| gazette.blocks[172][0] |
卓院長榮泰：沒有綠能，很多先進產業需要用綠能的。 |
| gazette.blocks[173][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，我現在在跟你講，為什麼你以前是賺錢的，現在賠錢，那你有去看那個能源結構到底出了什麼問題？第一個就是因為你把核電停掉了嘛；第二個你買了很多再生能源，這兩個價格差很多，你有沒有跟人民講這個事情？而且，你那個真相沒有講，要跟全民去講清楚，核電，因為你明年還要廢掉核三廠的二號機，我們人民的用電成本會越來越高，所以它造成要漲電價。 |
| gazette.blocks[174][0] |
卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們還要很多的錢用於核二、核三的後續…… |
| gazette.blocks[175][0] |
張委員啓楷：第二個，再生能源我們沒有反對用，抱歉，讓我講完，院長，讓我講完。院長，我們沒有反對你去發展再生能源，可是太陽能出現那麼多的弊案，很多案子顯然就是花了太多錢，這才是兩個真正的原因嘛。 |
| gazette.blocks[175][1] |
我給大家看一下這個圖表，來、來、來，看一下上一個核三的。院長，你在廢核的同時是不是要跟人民講，這幾年為什麼一直在漲電價，一直在撥補，就是因為核一已經沒有了，核二已經沒有了，核三的一號機已經被你停了，明年二號機又要停，這代價有多高，你知道嗎？人民到底要付多少錢？你有沒有跟人民解釋過，跟人民講過這個事情？院長，你有去統計過這個嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[176][0] |
卓院長榮泰：報告委員，所謂的真相就是核電買起來很便宜，確實比較便宜，可是它事後的售後服務非常的貴，每一筆錢都是，而且它的建設費用也很高，這個都要算進去的，現在核電占的比例已經相當低了。 |
| gazette.blocks[177][0] |
張委員啓楷：你核一廠、核二廠、核三廠不都建好了，那核四廠都建好了，不是嗎？而且你講後端，我們每一度電裡面就會有核廢料的處理，有核後端的基金啊！四千多億放在那裡啊！本來就在那裡啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[178][0] |
卓院長榮泰：這也是人民的錢，所以繼續的用，就會繼續要處理核廢料。 |
| gazette.blocks[179][0] |
張委員啓楷：所以你剛剛講的是有問題的，院長，來、來、來，我覺得人民最關心的就是10月1日不要漲電價，第二個，你要跟人民把真相講清楚，因為你們廢核，這是你們的神主牌或者你們的意識形態嘛！這個代價有多高？來，我們來看看，這是從台電的官網抓下來的資料，核電1度電的成本是1.13元，對不對？夠便宜了吧！你剛剛在講的核後端處理基金四千多億也在那裡啦！用火力發電1度要多少？2.98元；用再生能源是5.39元。在這段時間你剛剛講為什麼一直在拿錢，漲人民的電價，一直在撥補？就是因為核一停了，核二停了，核三的一號機停了，那個代價有多高？來，你這個數學題，電是科學問題，也是簡單的數學題，你知道嗎？院長，你算一下，跳回去，你算一下，光是一個核三廠好了，核三廠去年……抱歉，請暫停一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[180][0] |
主席：時間到了，啓楷委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[181][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們可以私下再談。 |
| gazette.blocks[182][0] |
張委員啓楷：我們等一下再談，就是那個成本的問題要好好去解釋，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[183][0] |
卓院長榮泰：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[184][0] |
張委員啓楷：OK。 |
| gazette.blocks[185][0] |
主席：謝謝張啓楷委員，謝謝卓院長的備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[185][1] |
接下來我們請登記第9號陳培瑜委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
322 |
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院會-11-2-1 |
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韓國瑜 |
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張啓楷 |
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陳培瑜 |
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羅智強 |
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林國成 |
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陳瑩 |
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洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
黃秀芳 |
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謝龍介 |
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李柏毅 |
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賴士葆 |
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許智傑 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
黃健豪 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
陳素月 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
233 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-09-24 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1137501 |
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1137501_00003 |
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1137501_00004 |
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立法院第11屆第2會期第1次會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
施政質詢
行政院院長施政報告並備質詢─ 繼續質詢─ |
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1137501_00010 |
| 委員名稱 |
張啓楷 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢我們今天來談經濟跟民生不要漲電價不要吃到進口的壞蛋今天大概很多記者都在問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
51.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
52.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
五二零之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
72.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
72.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
張啓楷議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
91.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
94.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
博帝你碰喜在關底的時間應該沒那麼多阿沒有沒有像我們前陣子嘉義發生公災 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
118.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
121.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
陳建仁院長同樣時間的電費人家少了你50%你用了2萬度15萬人民的納稅錢這是一個很重要的對比所以現在兩個問題要解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
145.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
145.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
韓國瑜 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
165.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
165.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
施政報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
186.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
212.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
陳建仁陳院長同樣是院長的觀點是做對比同樣的時間點你多出人家50%欸這個趕快去改好不好你剛講就是說你要去查嘛對不對那更重要的更重要的人民的觀感就會很不好了嘛所以要怎麼去把這個墊節省下來好不好你要趕快去做這件事情4到6月啊我使用的時間非常短他也是增加了3700度左右6到8月 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
213.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
233.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
其實不是只有你 行政院院長的這個官邸出問題而已啦我給他看一下你知道今年 中央部會一共花了多少的人民納稅錢嗎幫你們付電費嗎 今年喔 八十億 更離譜的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
241.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
251.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我們送來的預算書裡面我們一本一本去翻明年的中央政府竟然要用到101億暴增了25億 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
256.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
266.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
現在不是只有你單純你自己的官邸用太多多了50%出來喔明年竟然一下子用到一百零億人民的納稅錢暴增了25%這個兩個部分跟委員解釋111年我們電費漲了8.4%112年跟113年各漲了11%左右所以加起來這三年的30% |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
279.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
307.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
過去的預算都沒有反映在預算裡面我們這次把它編了這是第一部分第二部分過去台電吸收以前都沒漲的現在一次把它漲足喔議員長以前為什麼沒有漲就是人民不能這麼苦店家不能這麼苦所以你才會不要漲這麼多嘛你現在變成說一次以前都沒漲的把盈利全部抹掉然後再一次要不要編足不是沒漲以前漲價之後都是吸收都沒有編漲價的費用那第二點我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
309.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
311.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
臺電不再負擔這麼多的政策吸收所以回歸到 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
312.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
337.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
教育部衛福部等等部會首長部會單位他們就目的事業主管機關編自己的預算來適應電費所以回到部會裡面來所以雙重的因素之下電費的這個編列是比較多的院長所以你講的是兩件事嘛你以前在做政策補貼給某些單位對不對你現在要改嘛這是一個第二個是我剛才提醒的以前沒有漲不代表現在可以漲因為以前為什麼沒辦法漲這麼多沒辦法補 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
339.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
350.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
人民已經很苦啊﹖很多店家跟產業已經很苦啊﹖所以才不能漲那麼多嘛﹖以前不能漲﹖以前不能漲﹖現在就不能漲對不對﹖而且你把以前沒有漲的全部放在這一次﹖人民受得了嗎﹖電費已經漲了﹖但是過去3年﹖電費都沒有反映在預算裡面﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
362.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
364.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以這個預算我們一定會延審好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
390.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
398.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我更期待了現在總預算退回去嘛我覺得院長你可以去想一想真的以前沒有漲的全部在才一年裡面你要增加25%增加21億 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
400.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
403.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
是不是讓請委員在審查預算的時候實質討論我們希望部會首長跟部會的官員都能夠向大院來清楚說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
424.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
425.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
明年的總預算增加4000億 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
441.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
468.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那個原住民那個預算才多少 21億我們公糧收購一年也60億 那個都是零頭你要照顧原住民不照顧要照顧農民不照顧 要增加4000億 為什麼現在有機會退回去城區委員我拜託 拜託院長重新想一下 一個是電費不要多這麼多 這是要調整的第二個怎麼照顧我們原住民 怎麼照顧農民 想一下好不好都要經過合理的編列都要經過合理的編列 程序要合法合憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
472.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
496.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
原住民的這個進法條例是我們三讀通過的我們台灣民眾黨提的公糧收購提高一公斤提高五塊錢是經過院會通過的這都是法定的預算這次有個機會退到程序會議趕快補破網好不好這個可以跟大院再好好的討論這樣的編列方式如果可行將來行政院編列預算的法定權利將會被破壞那我們不願意這樣做但是我們希望說各部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
496.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
524.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
在編列預算的時候能夠具體說明清楚審查預算的時候也能夠很清楚的捍衛自己的預算這樣整個預算的完整性才能完整院長今年4月1號調的平均的這個幅度是11%民生用電只有5到10那我剛提醒你了你一下增加了25% 101那是連過去兩三年的我再給你看一個我從你個人的觀底談到整體的預算再來進一步我們來看某些機關來 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
529.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
542.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
總統府明年的水電費要增加28%施法院一下子跳了60%剛剛在講在挖礦挖比特幣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
544.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
561.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
委員這種形容非常不當委員這種形容非常不當你說司法院在挖比特幣這樣形容非常不當我絕對不要用這樣的形容是民間在諷刺為什麼民間黨有這樣共識在挖比特幣這個錢是誰的錢大家國人的錢我們人民的納稅錢付你們水電費結果這個幅度漲這麼高 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
569.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
598.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
你不掏人民的錢我剛剛跟委員講過那是三年的為什麼委員都不談論這一點一直用你一開始的論調呢那我們這裡沒有辦法這樣對話嘛我說這是三年來調整的百分之三十過去沒有反映在預算上甚至把它反映上去了就是這樣的計算方式那進入實質審查之後委員如果有意見可以在審查的時候跟我們的各部委首長好好的去討論那這個要做一個合理的編列這個我們都接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
598.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
623.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
議員長你解釋了三年沒有漲 這次要把它漲熟我剛剛已經跟你講了 第一個當初沒有漲一定有它的理由 而且已經漲得過多了這三年已經漲得過多了 你都反應在上面 第二更嚴重的 你再一次要漲25%人民是不會接受的 人民是不會接受的 沒關係 今天你說的我們到審判桌好好來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
624.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
632.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
欸! |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
632.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
634.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
今天也是一個很重要的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
663.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
685.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
今天的最新的新聞啊說10月1號要漲電價而且幅度本來跟原來講的本來說要漲多少不給你1000億的補貼你要漲12到13%現在一下子要漲到13到14為什麼突然又調高了第二個你們這是情緒勒索嗎甚至什麼這恐惡取材嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
686.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
714.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
你一下子一定要給你撥補,你撥撥補我就要漲你的電價,有這種道理嗎?把人民當什麼?當帕納薩,當培養是不是?報告委員,撥補台電是為了改善台電的財務結構,跟電價沒有關係,電價是由電價審議匯率市長等一下等一下等一下等一下,你要改善你的財務也有很多方法啊你開源節流啊,你有很多方法,你為什麼要拿人民納稅錢一千億又補上去?院長我提醒你一下齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
716.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
741.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
臺電的資產可以重估他的資產可以活化現在你說要改善這個財務最簡單的啊臺鐵現在不是正在做嗎為什麼你為什麼不去做自己的財資產的這個重估或者是這個活化你反而拿這筆納稅錢一千億一千億這樣去補嗎我先提醒你這一點第一個所以不要為了所謂你本身臺電的錯誤要去漲人民的一千億 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
743.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
757.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
不要去讓我們撥補然後不要再漲我們電價可以嗎第一點電價要不要漲要等電價審議會來決定並不是政府能夠主導而且現在外部委員已經過半所以對於電價未來要怎麼樣漲或跌這要由電價審議會來決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
759.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
774.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
第二點一千億的撥補是因為過去向院長講由臺電吸收之後他的財務結構需要補充但是我要跟委員報告我們已經請臺電要做資產重估火化資產改善經營效率多方採購等等這些都會照原理自然做 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
776.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
805.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
郭部長說如果這個一千億有撥補應該就是不會有漲這個價的問題那我現在進一步跟你講你這一千億根本就是不用是為了臺電的財務去做這個一千億的撥補有更好的方法嘛你臺電的資產兩兆一千億欸你自己不努力不做開源節流的事情包括你能源政策錯誤你從人民的身上掏錢所以這個一千億本來就不應該給那如果是像郭部長上禮拜講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
806.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
825.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
第一個一千億我們去想辦法不要從人民身上再去撥補第二個10月1號就不要再漲電價了我問一下部長 問一下議員你聽我講你說4月1號民生用電已經漲了民生很苦對不對4月1號今年漁人節已經漲過一次了你聽我講這個漲電價一方面衝擊到物價一方面要穩定民生你也是傾向說10月1號不要漲對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
836.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
861.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這個是政府的期待但是還是要由電價審議會來決定你今天能不能清楚跟全民贏10月1號不要再漲電價了你是比較接地氣的我剛剛已經講了第一個現在電費已經太高人民已經哭哈哈的第一個你上禮拜也講了你認為這個會衝擊到物價衝擊到民生甚至你之前都講了10月1號漲了就不要再漲了你今天清楚的跟人民講 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
863.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
889.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
雖然電價審議委員會還沒有開啊但是我想能夠擔任是電價審議委員的這些先進們都會觀測到整個社會民生的需求我個人認為雖然我們的民生用電現在是低於台電的發電成本但是基於民生用電的需求政府應該想盡各種方法來對民生的用電 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
889.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
890.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
張啓楷 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
902.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
921.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我們就讓這個電價審議委員會來討論 結論現在沒有人知道 但是我是希望你講這個很重要啊 你說希望馬上要開的電價審議委員會 民生用電絕對不要漲了 要嘛就去檢討包括工業用電是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
921.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
926.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
所以一句話就是這個討論跟追加預算一千億是不一樣的追加預算那就是要來看過去台電支付那麼多的政策目標之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
942.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
952.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
他在財政財務上的健全需不需要讓他能夠順利的經營以及民生用電需不需要政府多投一些來協助讓他能夠平穩 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
952.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
975.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那我們要用這個方式來講另外臺電花了很多錢做電網韌性的改善這個要不要增加一些錢讓他處理因為電價審議委員會馬上就要開了我們要決定10月1號要不要漲電價那大家生氣的是今天的媒體已經講了不只原來的12到13%他一下子要漲13到14那我們經過今天這樣的對話以人民為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
976.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1002.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我們盡量民生用電不要再去碰到了甚至更進一步的現在很多產業用電也是很辛苦我只能說這是我我自己的想法我個人的想法第一個我們盡量再往10月1號不要漲電價的方向去走好不好我們盡量往這邊去走接下來我們來討論那個1000億別的地方可以找到這1000億阿你為什麼每次都要從大家的人民的口袋裡面去掏錢呢大家看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1005.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1024.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
從2022年的12月開始你們透過認股的增資1500特別預算500然後經濟部又認股增資1000過去的3年已經拿了人民的納稅錢3000億去補了台電另外大家看右邊這個表 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1027.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1047.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
過去三年 漲了三次的電價一次漲8.4一次漲11%一次漲11%三年 三年漲了三年漲了30%院長我現在提醒你最重要是什麼你現在看到一個趨勢了波普 漲價波普 漲價波普 漲價結果問題有解決嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1051.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1058.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
股泥 去年底的時候3800多億的虧損你們說今年4月1號讓我漲一下電價結果虧損越來越嚴重現在變成無底洞 就表示你現在用撥補跟漲人民的電價你不只沒有解決問題 你變成個無底洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1078.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1078.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
報告委員： |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1098.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1103.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
院長 透過我們這樣對話你沒有發現你在講漲電價的同時在講撥補的時候你都解決不了問題就台電那個虧損數越來越大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1127.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1133.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
也許委員認為是左手跟右手目的是使主管機關來付或是台電來付再委員看也許是左手右手 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1148.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1176.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
但就台電來看就是他財務能不能健全經營能不能適妥的一個方式現在我們就是把他的很多的補貼政策移到目的實業主管機關來我們希望台電能夠真正的自立自營來經營他的財務院長你現在提了一個方法啦就是用政策補貼要改回去啦例如說可能各個機關以前台電負擔這才是一個正常之道可是我再提醒你這個咧嘴車薪真正要財務的解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1177.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1204.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
要重更奏起 這簡單的嘛我們從國小就練過 從這個地方開始大體的來推動開源節流嘛 對不對開源節流嘛 我剛給你看的就是節流從你的官邸 到各個機關的用水電費一直到各個機關 總統府跟司法院不要用那麼多的電你叫人民說要省電結果政府拍幾串頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1206.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1206.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
其實我們的電價應該是往下降不是往上漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1236.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1246.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
每次你們在講說要漲的時候這是一個最重要的因素你特別都說烏鶴戰爭以後天然氣暴漲這張圖來我們看一下那張圖這個是天然氣最近這幾年他的整個趨勢圖給大家看一下這個圖你有沒有看到2022跟2023很高阿你看齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1264.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1279.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
天然氣最暴增的時候是在就是上面那個2022到2023年可是你有發現嗎2023年就往下掉了現在2024嘛對不對2024右邊你看右邊這個圖跟左邊的2017年跟2018年現在國際天然氣的價格從去年2023年就開始掉了掉到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1294.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1311.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
比2017年跟2018年還低是不是這樣所以剛剛跟委員報告四月之後臺電的盈餘狀況是有所改善的跟這個也有相關啊對啊我剛剛已經講過啦所以院長你這話很重要所以是應該電費應該降啊你怎麼反而往上飆呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1315.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1335.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
你的電費的原則第一個是反應成本第二個是照顧民生第二個是穩定物價再來是節能指引碳所以第一個要反應成本過去都沒有辦法反應成本因為原料也高各種都很高現在是盡量把它接近成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1336.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1362.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
一定是你跟大家說的從上一任的總統跟院長到你這一任的院長跟總統還有經濟部你們就跟我講為什麼虧損會那麼嚴重包括要漲電價你們的過電成本還是高的嘛所以我今天給你看啊你們一直講天然氣啊這個土清清楚楚了吧它已經掉下來了今年是改善的啊對所以它掉下來了今年是改善的但過去虧損太多院長所以改善了所以電價是不是往下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1365.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1389.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
你怎麼往上調過去虧損太多我們距離成本還是有距離的距離發電成本還是有距離的你已經過去3年撥補了3000億以上然後你已經漲了三次電價了你跟我講還撥不夠等一下市長你不要講你已經撥補那麼多漲了那麼多我再重複一次好不好3年撥補了3000億以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1391.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1401.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
三年漲價漲了30%以上那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例那有相當的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1411.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1436.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
還有民生用電一直是低於成本的所以政府也要穩定民生用電的成本計算不會漲太多的民生用電這個是已經存在多年的事實所以他的財務狀況一直不是很好尤其到了2022、2023整個燃料、能源上漲之後他的級距是加深的那今年我們在4月調漲之後以及現在這個能源的變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1437.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1465.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
今年度到4月之後它是有所改善的但過去的虧損仍然很多就是那兩個原因一個是穩定民生一個就是政策的撥補政策的這個政策支應那現在我們把政策這個回到各目的事業主管機關那我們在希望用最佳預算來填補現在的這個民生用電這樣我們期待一年兩年之後的台電呈現出來的可以現在經營狀況會有所不點那天郭部長在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1465.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1470.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
議員長我們台灣人民的出資是很高的我想從這個圖很清楚看出來就是前幾年政府一直在講因為天然氣暴增所以你的電費必須漲今天很清楚從這個圖看出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1490.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1509.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
拜託一下現在電費應該是考慮要往下降了不是再往上漲我們現在還跟發電成本還有距離為什麼你的發電成本應該是往下降阿你用天然氣用那麼多你以前漲電價發電成本高也是天然氣阿他降阿我們以氣換煤這個是政策所以問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1513.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1530.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
出在什麼地方?一定還有另外一個漏洞你沒有跟人民講嘛你有一個沒有跟人民講的真相嘛為什麼成本還在增加?天然氣明明也是這樣啊為什麼?這段時間出了什麼問題?現在核能的比例已經相當低了所以核能的成本並不能 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1537.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1552.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
降低太多的成本因為現在是要彌補過去的這個狀況過去的這個補貼政策現在台電的這個財務是不健全的那希望說能夠讓他財務健全兩年之後那天郭部長講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1553.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1581.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
他很勇敢的而且負責的講兩年之內要把台電的經營讓他能夠順暢能夠進入到一個正常的經營的狀態那我們應該給台電這樣努力的空間所以我們盡量把他的財務狀況調的比較健全一點不要負太多的政策的負擔責任院長你台電的財務怎麼樣才可以財務的健全很多方式他本來是金雞母我回到剛剛那張圖給大家看一下台電是一個金雞母回到上面那張圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
1583.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
1592.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
台電為什麼金雞母變成敗家子你在講他財務的問題你看喔2017年2018年的時候台電都還是金雞母都還是賺錢的2017年那時候台電賺多少錢118億2018年的時候還賺了35億到了今年你們累計要虧損多光是今年2024年不只沒有賺錢喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
1610.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
1625.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
要競損2124億為什麼這麼大的落差我也非常不能接受同樣天然氣現在天然氣已經比2017年跟18還低了那時候是賺錢的為什麼現在賠這麼多你在講財務問題在哪裡我們看下一張好不好問題在你剛講的你把核電廢掉之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
1641.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
1642.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
當然啦 核電你現場買很便宜售後服務就很貴阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
1659.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
1663.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那也是人民的錢不是嗎那也是人民的錢啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
1672.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
1696.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
對阿 你的再生能源買很貴阿現在這兩個問題嘛 你現在講財務你現在出了問題沒有綠能 現在跟你講 先進產業需要用綠能你以前是賺錢的 現在賠錢 那你有去知道去看那個結構到底 能源結構出了什麼問題第一個就是因為你把核電停掉了嘛 因為你買了很多再生能源這兩個價格差很多 你有沒有跟人民講這個事情 而且你又跟真相沒有講 要跟全民去講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
1698.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
1698.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
議員長 讓我講完 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
1715.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
1716.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
院長你在會合的同時是不是要跟人民講 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
1738.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
1755.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
這幾年為什麼一直在漲電價一直在撥股就是因為核一已經沒有了核二已經沒有了核三的一號機已經被你停了明年二號機又要停這代價有多高你知道嗎人民到底要付多少錢你們跟人民解釋過跟人民講過這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
1759.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
1787.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
議員長你有去統計過這個嗎報告委員所謂的真相就是核電買很便宜啦比較便宜對他事後的售後服務非常的貴每一筆錢都是而且他的建設費用也很高這個都要算進去的現在核電已經佔的比例相當低了那你核一廠核二廠核三廠都建好了連核四廠都建好了不是嗎而且你講後端我們每一度店裡面就有核廢料的這個處理有核後端的基金啊市場外有擺在那 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
1788.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
1816.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
這也是人民的錢這也是人民的錢所以繼續的用就會繼續要處理核廢料你剛講的是有問題的院長來來來最關鍵我覺得人民最關心的啦不要實力要不要漲電價第二個你要跟人民講真相要講清楚因為你們廢核這是你們的薪酬班或者你們的意識形態嘛這個代價有多高一度電來看看這是從台電的官網抓下來的資料核電一度電的成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
1820.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
1841.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
1.13對不對 過便宜了吧你剛才講核二端處理基金4000多億也在那裡啦用火力發電一度要多少 2.98用再生能源5.39你這段時間你剛講那個為什麼一直在拿錢 拿漲人民的電價一直在撥補就是因為核一停了 核二停了 核三的一號機停了 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
1852.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
1852.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
好 謝謝時間到了 請開會 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-09-24T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:00:47 - 09:31:50 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢） |
| IVOD_ID |
154864 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154864 |
| 日期 |
2024-09-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-2-1 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期第1次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-09-24T09:00:47+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-09-24T09:31:50+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |