| IVOD_ID |
154531 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154531 |
| 日期 |
2024-07-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-35 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第35次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
35 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第35次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-07-04T10:02:44+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-07-04T10:15:06+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:22 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63671f30c17e5ce82b1be0a2ef0e33694ca3475b9734ef28f9b7c2a13ffe8bb56e357ca2c70d75735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:02:44 - 10:15:06 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-07-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第35次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部、金融監督管理委員會、經濟部、數位發展部、內政部列席就「洗錢防制法規範下洗錢防制對象在新興通路之風險評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| gazette.lineno |
185 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
黃委員國昌：（10時3分）麻煩有請法務部次長、金管會銀行局局長，以及國家通訊傳播委員會。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：好，請法務部黃次長、金管會銀行局莊局長，以及國家通訊傳播委員會法律事務處的蔡處長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
黃次長謀信：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
黃委員國昌：詐騙、洗錢造成無數人受害，在這整個詐騙、洗錢產業鏈裡面，一個過去一直被忽略，我們的金管會去年說要仰賴虛擬資產平臺的公會，黃天牧去年是不是這樣講的？金管會要納管，然後出台VASP指導原則，結果搞了半天，出了什麼事？VASP的籌備小組靈魂人物，自己是詐騙集團的首腦，這就是我們的金管會啊！要業者自律成立公會，結果公會的靈魂人物正是詐欺集團的首腦，這一路走來，法務部認為金管會的政策是不是錯誤的？有沒有重新檢討的必要？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這是主管機關的職掌，法務部尊重。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
黃委員國昌：到現在還在尊重喔！搞成這樣還尊重喔！來看一下事情有多嚴重。王牌交易所詐騙洗錢二十幾億，前一陣子終於起訴了，我整份起訴書看完了，我不可置信，我為什麼不可置信？今天要談虛擬貨幣、要談洗錢，我先具體請教，以詐欺所得成立的公司，是不是不法所得？這些不法所得要不要列入沒收的範圍？請教次長。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
黃次長謀信：前置犯罪所得，當然是詐欺所得，有可能會涉及到其他的犯罪…… |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
黃委員國昌：這一些在洗錢網絡裡面的公司、負責人、實際的行為人，應不應該被訴追？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個案子臺北地檢署已經做部分的偵結，相關的案情如果有涉及其他犯罪，本部相信臺北地檢署會做後續的偵查。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
黃委員國昌：會做後續的偵查？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
黃次長謀信：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
黃委員國昌：麻煩次長回去提醒臺北地檢署，我看完了以後感到非常的納悶，地檢署起訴書認定的犯罪事實，來，看清楚喔！王牌交易所4個主嫌──潘奕彰、林耿宏、林若蕎、王晨桓，下面詐欺二十幾億，層層的不法所得透過這些公司洗錢，洗到下面有一家叫萓篆股份有限公司，董事長謝詩瑩被起訴了，不法所得流到這裡了。但我看起訴書很奇怪耶！怎麼萓篆股份有限公司就輕輕放掉，在洗錢網絡裡耶！行為人要不要訴追、不法所得要不要沒收？是怎麼樣？偵辦到這家公司，發現背後有綠色媒體集團當重要的股東一起參與其中，就輕輕放下，是這樣嗎？請教次長。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我剛剛已經說明清楚了，臺北地檢署就它起訴的事實來講，當然如同委員PPT上所載，它只是起訴它目前認定的事實，至於有沒有其他的犯罪事實，我們相信臺北地檢署應該也一定會繼續來追查，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
黃委員國昌：我講話有一說一，我邀請次長跟所有法務部的長官回去看這個起訴書，它就在起訴犯罪事實裡啊！問題是它在起訴犯罪事實裡，在談到不法金流的時候、在追究刑事責任的時候，碰到這家萓篆公司，登記在三立集團大樓裡面的萓篆公司，談都不談耶！談都不談，為什麼這件事情可惡？來，我跟次長講，有很多人會受騙，大家都在想說哇！這個王牌交易所它發行的虛擬貨幣，在這個平臺上面交易的虛擬貨幣是不是真的貨幣？大家就會在網路上面去搜尋資訊嘛！結果搜尋資訊以後，發現，哇！這個交易所好棒棒、這個虛擬貨幣好棒棒，這麼多新聞幫它吹捧、幫它拉抬，非常的有前景，結果搞了半天是什麼？內容農場啊！還是詐騙集團養的內容農場啊！民生頭條、Potato Media上面講什麼？CSO全球最大Web3.0社群平臺Potato Media，CSO垃圾幣，拿來詐騙用的垃圾幣；NFTC是CHAEBOL社群平臺代理的貨幣，NFTC也是垃圾幣，拿來詐騙用的，結果呢？內容農場主嫌、犯罪組織成員在外面成立民生頭條、Potato Media，化名記者撰寫虛擬貨幣的內容，空洞、欺騙消費者，騙一堆無辜的人上這個平臺上去買它的虛擬貨幣，如果是內容農場的一定要訴追嘛！對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，從臺北地檢署的新聞稿及起訴書，我們可以看得出來委員所提到的相關媒體記者，它有用涉嫌散布假訊息的共犯起訴了。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
黃委員國昌：好，你說相關的人都以共犯都起訴了，我的問題是有嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
黃次長謀信：有，部分的所謂的假媒體散布假訊息…… |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
黃委員國昌：有嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
黃次長謀信：有。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
黃委員國昌：真的有嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
黃次長謀信：對，從它新聞稿裡面看得出來…… |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
黃委員國昌：部分被起訴了嘛！那其他的人呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
黃次長謀信：其他部分就如同我剛剛講…… |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
黃委員國昌：放掉嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
黃次長謀信：沒有，報告委員，絕對不會…… |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
黃委員國昌：可以放掉嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
黃次長謀信：報告委員，絕對不會，如同剛剛我跟委員報告的。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
黃委員國昌：來，我們繼續再往下看，這個就是我剛剛講的詐騙集團散播的假新聞嘛！來，看一下，姜建良、李燕南，一個是三立節目的製作人，而且他就是用這個三立的節目「BIBO願望合夥人」，把這個垃圾幣透過詐騙平臺在推廣；右手邊這個李燕南，他也是一模一樣，幹一模一樣的事，就在我剛剛講的那個洗錢犯罪網絡裡面。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][1] |
結果還不只是這樣，來，看一下，這個三立的政論節目竟然跟詐騙集團所成立的假新聞平臺強強聯手、抽黃金啊！這是他們的新聞，來，看一下，「完成三步驟、投票抽黃金」、「三立與Potato Media強強聯手」，我的老天啊！Potato Media就是我剛剛講的那個詐騙集團的內容農場啊！三立跟Potato Media強強聯手，可以這樣幹喔？ |
| gazette.blocks[27][2] |
來，請問一下NCC，新聞臺喔！新聞臺搞到成為幫詐騙集團，跟他們強強聯手，出假新聞騙一堆人上車，NCC要不要追究責任？知不知道這件事？NCC知不知道？ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
蔡處長志儒：向委員報告，這個案件我們現在才瞭解，當然如果有涉及到違反強制規定或者…… |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
黃委員國昌：來，我就具體的看嘛！我們的電視新聞臺跟Potato Media，這個被檢察官認證拿來詐騙洗錢的平臺，還強強聯手、抽黃金，剛剛法務部說了他們不是放水不辦，還沒辦到嘛！我們拭目以待，看檢察官是不是遇到綠色媒體集團就變得軟趴趴、不敢辦，我們拭目以待！我今天相信次長，因為次長說有的先一波solo，還有下一波嘛！我們拭目以待看下一波，但NCC知不知道這件事情？ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
蔡處長志儒：現在知道了。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
黃委員國昌：現在知道，要不要徹查？新聞臺可以這樣幹喔？ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
蔡處長志儒：有進一步檢察官…… |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
黃委員國昌：這樣還不夠明確喔？這樣還不夠明確喔？ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
蔡處長志儒：我們會依程序來進行瞭解調查。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
黃委員國昌：要不要立案調查？需不需要？ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
蔡處長志儒：我們就依程序來進行調查。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
黃委員國昌：依什麼程序？講清楚！不要講官話啦！這樣還不嚴重喔？NCC應該展現什麼態度？全民在打詐，痛恨詐騙集團、洗錢集團，竟然有我們的電視新聞臺涉入其中，非同小可、徹查到底，這才是NCC應該有的態度嘛！是因為人家背後有黨政高層撐腰，NCC看到三立，腰桿子都挺不直喔！要不要徹查？ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
蔡處長志儒：我們會依法來進行處理。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
黃委員國昌：依法處理，今天才知道，反應這麼慢喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[39][1] |
來，再看一下，詐騙集團在三立開節目推廣垃圾幣，出品的公司、出品人、監製，有兩個現在被起訴了，其他的還沒有追究責任，次長，有兩個被起訴了，其他還沒有追究責任，這個出品的應曄科技傳媒股份有限公司背後也有問題喔！然後還有三立新聞，幫詐騙的垃圾幣在散播假訊息，我們過去一段時間一直在講，網際網路散播假訊息很嚴重嘛！對吧？受害的人很多嘛！電視新聞散播假訊息，幫詐騙集團拉抬坐轎，嚴不嚴重？請教次長。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，如果他涉及我們刑罰的規定，當然法務部來處理；如果涉及相關部會的主管法規，必須要主管機關來依照它…… |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
黃委員國昌：除了刑法以外，還有洗錢防制法嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
黃次長謀信：如果有構成洗錢防制法，當然我們檢察機關會依法來…… |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
黃委員國昌：徹查到底喔！徹查到底喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[43][1] |
來，請NCC，我們現在都在講說透過網際網路搞詐騙，一堆人受害，很可惡、很嚴重，透過電視新聞直接散布嚴不嚴重？嚴不嚴重？要不要處理？ |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
蔡處長志儒：是，這些報導如果說涉及到違反強制或禁止規定…… |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
黃委員國昌：不是說有涉及啦！檢察官起訴事實就白紙黑字寫在那邊了啦！NCC這樣軟趴趴，難怪人家對NCC不信任嘛！遇到執政黨、遇到執政黨撐腰的媒體集團，軟趴趴整個快跪下去了！請回去帶給所有7位NCC委員知道，當一天和尚撞一天鐘，徹查到底。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝黃次長。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][1] |
接下來請羅委員智強發言，羅智強，羅智強委員不在。不過剛剛似乎在我們重新開會之前，他有在場，麻煩請國民黨團助理可以協助通知，他只要一在場，我們再適當安排。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
主席（陳委員俊宇代）：接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
24 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-36-35 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
鍾佳濱 |
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黃國昌 |
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莊瑞雄 |
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羅智強 |
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1 |
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2024-07-04 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1137002 |
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1137002_00002 |
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立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第35次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請法務部、金融監督管理委員會、經濟部、數位發展部、內政部列席就「洗錢防制法規範下洗
錢防制對象在新興通路之風險評估」進行專題報告，並備質詢 |
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來馬上有請法務部次長、金管會銀行局局長以及我們的國家通訊委員會好請法務部黃次長、金管會銀行局莊局長以及國家通訊傳播委員會法律事務處的蔡處長請委好詐騙洗錢造成了無數人受害在這整個詐騙洗錢產業鏈裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
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一個過去一直被忽略我的金管會去年說要仰賴這個虛擬資產平台的工會這個是黃天牧嘛去年是不是這樣講的金管會要納管然後出台VASP指導原則結果搞了半天出了什麼事啊VASP籌備小組靈魂人物 |
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自己是詐騙集團的首腦這就是我們的金管會啊要業者自律成立工會結果工會的靈魂人物正是詐欺集團的首腦這一路走來法務部認為金管會的政策是不是錯誤有沒有重新檢討的必要 |
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這是主管機關的執掌 法務部尊重到現在還在尊重喔搞成這樣還尊重喔來看一下事情有多嚴重啊王牌交易所詐欺洗錢20幾億啊20幾億啊前一陣子終於起訴了 |
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我整份請書書看完啊我不可置信啊我為什麼不可置信今天要談虛擬貨幣要談洗錢來我先具體請教詐欺所得成立的公司是不是不罰所得這些不罰所得要不要列入沒收的範圍來請教市長 |
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143.81 |
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呃...犯罪...前置犯罪所得當然是這個詐欺所得他有可能會涉及到其他的相...相...這些在洗錢網絡裡面的公司負責人實際的行為人應不應該被訴追呃...各位報告那...這個案子把台北地檢署已經...他已經做部分的偵檢相關的案子...相關的案情如果涉及其他犯罪那本部相信台北地檢署會做後續的偵查會做後續的偵查齁麻煩齁市長回去一下 |
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提醒台北地檢署我看完了以後我非常的納悶地檢署的起訴書認定的犯罪事實來看清楚王牌交易所四個主嫌潘毅章、林耿宏、林若喬、王承環下面詐欺二十幾億層層的不法所得透過這些公司 |
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洗錢洗到下面有一家叫移賺股份有限公司的董事長謝新穎被起訴了不罰所得留到這裡了但我看起訴書很奇怪怎麼移賺股份有限公司就輕輕放掉在洗錢網絡裡欸行為呢要不要訴追不罰所得要不要沒收 |
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是怎麼樣偵辦到這家公司發現背後有綠色媒體集團當重要的股東一起參與其中輕輕放下是這樣嗎請教市長呃 各位報告我剛剛已經說明清楚了那台北地檢署他就他的起訴的事實來講當然如同委員的PVP上所載他只是起訴他現在目前認定的事實那至於有沒有其他的犯罪事實我們相信台北地檢署他應該也一定會繼續來追查謝謝 |
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我講話有意思意啊我邀請市長跟我們所有法務部的長官回去看這個起訴書他就在起訴犯罪事實裡啊問題是他在起訴犯罪事實裡在談到不法禁流的時候在追究刑事責任的時候碰到這家遺傳公司啊登記在三立集團大樓裡面的遺傳公司啊 |
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289.725 |
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談都不談欸談都不談為什麼這件事情可惡 來 |
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291.363 |
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我跟次長講有很多人會受騙大家都在想說哇 這個王牌交易所他發行的虛擬貨幣在這個平台上面交易的虛擬貨幣是不是真的貨幣大家就會在網路上面去搜尋資訊嘛結果搜尋資訊以後發現哇 這個交易所好棒棒這個虛擬貨幣好棒棒這麼多新聞幫他吹捧幫他拉抬 |
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346.636 |
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非常地有前景結果搞了半天是什麼內容農場啊還是詐騙集團養的內容農場啊民生頭條Potato Media上面講什麼CSO全球最大Web3.0社群平台Potato MediaCSO垃圾幣拿來詐騙用的垃圾幣NFTC是Shopee社群平台代理的貨幣 |
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348.174 |
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NFTC也是垃圾幣拿來詐騙用的結果呢內容農場主嫌犯罪組織成員在外面成立民生頭條Potato Media化名記者撰寫虛擬貨幣的內容空洞 |
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騙消費者騙一堆無辜的人上這個平台上去買他的虛擬貨幣如果是內容農場的一定要訴追嘛對不對各位報告從台北地檢署的新聞稿集起訴書我們可以看得出來相關委員所提到的相關的媒體記者他有用涉嫌散佈假訊息的共犯起訴了好你說相關的人都共犯起訴了我的問題是有嗎 |
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來我們繼續啊再往下看這個就是我剛講的詐騙集團散播的假新聞嘛來看一下江健良李燕蘭一個是什麼三立節目的 |
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製作人欸而且他就是用這個三立的節目people願望合夥人把這個垃圾幣透過詐騙平台在推廣右手邊這個李彥南他也是一模一樣欸幹一模一樣的事就在我剛講的那個洗錢犯罪網絡裡面結果還不只是這樣來看一下 |
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453.244 |
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480.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這個三立的政論節目啊竟然跟詐騙集團所成立的假新聞平台強強聯手抽黃金啊這是他們的新聞啊 來看一下完成三步驟投票抽黃金三立與Potato Media強強聯手我老天啊Potato Media就是我剛講的啊那個詐騙集團的內容農場啊三立跟Potato Media強強聯手 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
481.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
505.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
可以這樣幹喔來請問一下NCC新聞台喔新聞台喔搞到陳為邦詐騙集團跟他們強強聯手出假新聞騙一堆人上車NCC要不要追究責任知不知道這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
507.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
521.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
NCC知不知道向委員報告 這個案件我們現在才了解那當然如果有涉及到說違反強制規定來我就具體的看嘛我們的電視新聞台跟Potato Media這個被檢察官認證拿來詐騙洗錢的平台還強強聯手抽黃金 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
534.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
560.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
剛法務部說囉他們不是放水不辦喔還沒辦到嘛我們拭目以待看檢察官是不是遇到綠色媒體集團就變得軟趴趴不敢辦我們拭目以待我今天相信次長因為次長說有的先一波solo還有下一波嘛我們拭目以待看下一波但NCC這件事情知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
562.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
590.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
現在知道現在知道要不要徹查新聞台可以這樣幹喔當然有進一步檢察官這樣還不夠明確喔這樣還不夠明確喔我們會依程序來進行了解調查要不要立案調查需不需要我們就依程序來進行調查依什麼程序講清楚不要講官話啦這樣還不嚴重喔NCC應該展現什麼態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
592.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
615.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
全民在打詐痛恨詐騙集團洗錢集團竟然由我們的電視新聞台涉入其中非同小可徹查到底這才是NCC應該有的態度嘛是因為人家背後有黨政高層撐腰NCC開刀三立腰桿子都挺不直喔要不要徹查 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
616.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
640.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我們會依法來進行處理依法處理今天才知道反應這麼慢喔來再看一下詐騙集團在三立開節目推廣垃圾幣出品的公司出品人監製有兩個現在被起訴了其他的還沒有追究責任喔次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
641.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
669.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
有兩個被起訴囉其他還沒有追究責任喔這個出品的硬業科技傳媒股份有限公司背後也有問題喔然後還有三立新聞幫詐騙的垃圾幣在散播假訊息我們過去一段時間一直在講網際網絡散播假訊息很嚴重嘛對吧受害的人很多嘛那電視新聞散播假訊息幫詐騙集團拉抬作教嚴不嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
672.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
699.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
請教次長關於報告如果他涉及我們刑法的規定當法部來處理那如果涉及相關主管部會相關的主管法規必須要主管機關他來依照他除了刑法以外還有洗錢防制法嘛如果有個人洗錢防制法當然我們檢察機關會依照徹查到底喔徹查到底喔來請NCC我們現在都在講說透過網際網絡搞詐騙一堆人受害很可惡很嚴重阿透過電視新聞直接散播嚴不嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
701.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
721.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
嚴不嚴重?要不要處理?不是說我涉及啦檢察官起訴事實就白紙黑字寫在那邊了啦NCC這樣軟趴趴難怪人家對NCC不信任嘛遇到執政黨遇到執政黨撐腰的媒體集團軟趴趴整個會跪下去了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
731.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
738.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
請回去帶給所有七位NCC委員知道當一天和尚撞一天鐘徹查到底 |