| IVOD_ID |
154395 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154395 |
| 日期 |
2024-06-28 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-1-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期第20次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
20 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期第20次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-06-28T15:19:33+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-06-28T15:51:19+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:31:46 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20593d2379a5c68a1b79a24fef19f4b46cd03fb23edab3c9084592ae7b5b568bf8f891d2cf65ac865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
張啓楷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
15:19:33 - 15:51:19 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-06-28T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。
二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。
三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。） |
| gazette.lineno |
194 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
張委員啓楷：（15時20分）謝謝主席，請卓院長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請卓院長備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
卓院長榮泰：張委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
張委員啓楷：卓院長你好。今天是國會改革以後第一天總質詢嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
張委員啓楷：我看你一大早進來就說今天是「以身試法」，我看你好像是說「嘗試」的「試」，其實應該是「合適」的「適」啦，「以身適法」，你本身就比較擅長協調啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
卓院長榮泰：但是絕不是「以身觸法」啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
張委員啓楷：不只不要觸法，而且現在不是「嘗試」的「試」，應該是來這邊做一個很合適的楷模、示範。事實上很簡單嘛，第一個，不要反質詢嘛；第二個，不要當木頭人，該知道的事情不要故意不回答，然後不要說謊話，就是不要做虛偽的陳述，很簡單嘛，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我一向如此。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
張委員啓楷：你今天已經經過一整天了，到目前很好嘛，對不對？今天一整天怎麼樣？感覺跟以前有不一樣嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
卓院長榮泰：到目前為止都不錯。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
張委員啓楷：還OK？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
卓院長榮泰：到目前為止都不錯。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
張委員啓楷：不只是以身「試法」，就是有「合適」的「適法」了！ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
卓院長榮泰：還可以。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
張委員啓楷：來，我們從「以身適法」開始。我們來看一下這個，看圖說故事，好不好？來，我們來看這個圖。我們的雞蛋，去年欠很多，對不對？所以去年我們買進口的雞蛋買了一億五千多萬顆，後來當然有出現五千多萬顆蛋作廢的事情，可是這個產銷的方式是對的，因為蛋不夠，買進口蛋對嘛，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
張委員啓楷：今年顛倒過來，今年反倒變成蛋太多了，對不對？先請問院長，今年要是再從國外進口蛋進來，對嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
卓院長榮泰：當然要很有計畫的去生產，而且要做調節的工作。那國外進口的蛋，它如果是慣例，我們可能把它做另外的使用，但是不要影響市場上的價格跟民生的需求。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
張委員啓楷：政府的責任就是產銷要平衡嘛，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
張委員啓楷：去年太少了，要加東西，所以從國外進來，今年國內生產太多了，應該減法嘛，所以我們剛剛講的答案就是不會從國外再進來了。可是，最近農業部中央畜產會做一個動作，它把去年的進口蛋當初做成液蛋還有滷蛋、茶葉蛋的，包括超思的巴西蛋，這個量我算過，不是一千萬顆，而是兩千兩百多萬顆放到市面上去，這個做法對嗎？已經太多了，部長稍等，請「以身適法」的院長先回答。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我想農業部跟蛋商一定有相當的計畫跟用途才這樣做，這個如果沒有影響到市場上的價格跟民生的穩定…… |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，有影響喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
卓院長榮泰：所以要進一步的來評估，這不是單從一個數字上來考慮的。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，有影響啊！上禮拜產地一斤是二十七塊五，這禮拜跌下去兩塊錢，而且已經快接近有史以來最低了，最低了喔，它當然是有衝擊啊！它當然是有衝擊啊！沒有、沒有，我做一個比較理性的呼籲，好不好？剛才民進黨的立委陳素月也在呼籲…… |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
張委員啓楷：我們現在趕快再幫我們的蛋農解決問題，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
卓院長榮泰：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
張委員啓楷：我們來動動腦，想幾個方法，我們來想幾個方法。第一個，剛才好像部長有講了，我昨天質詢你之後，你現在不會再賣了？ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
陳部長駿季：對，我們先…… |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
張委員啓楷：先停下來，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
陳部長駿季：我們先把它暫停，因為它現在是公告而已，公告的部分…… |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
張委員啓楷：先停下，對，公告要停下來。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
陳部長駿季：對，我們先把它停下來。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
張委員啓楷：我從2月份就開始追雞蛋了，只有最近這一、兩個月，你們從5月17號開始倒這個蛋出去，很多雞農是很抗議的，因為很多雞農他們也是支持你們民進黨的，先停下來，先停下來，你這個作法有點像落井下石，說實在的，他已經蛋就賣不出去，其實前幾天報紙是有報的，蛋已經多到有些──因為買飼料的錢還不夠，有些是拿去餵豬，因為要減少進到市面上的蛋的數量，結果你現在這邊還火上加油，他們實在很生氣，就像那句臺灣話說的「生雞卵的無，放雞屎的有」，這個很不好啦！人們會覺得政府應該多……我覺得部長平常評價還不錯，可是這個事情要趕快踩煞車。另外，我請你們答應一件事情，我現在發現不是只有這兩千兩百萬顆，對不對？後面還有去年買的還沒出來的加工蛋，做成液蛋、茶葉蛋、滷蛋的還有四千多萬顆，對不對？短時間都不能再賣了喔，不能再賣了，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
陳部長駿季：我想我們釋出一定會看市場的需求，如果國內的蛋供應市場的需求是夠的話，我們就不會釋出。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
張委員啓楷：對啦，你的意思就是如果過剩，你就不能再賣了，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
陳部長駿季：類似用庫存的概念，滾動倉儲的概念去處理。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
張委員啓楷：對、對、對，白話文就是如果過剩就不能賣了，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
陳部長駿季：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
張委員啓楷：這是簡單的數學問題嘛，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員，我們來要求以民生穩定跟價格穩定來照顧大家，把這個當作唯一的標準。 |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
張委員啓楷：對，所以我們現在第一個就是兩千多萬顆雖然公告了，今天很清清楚楚地跟我們全國民眾講：不會賣了，這是第一個。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
陳部長駿季：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
張委員啓楷：第二個，四千多萬顆原則上也不會賣了，除非到時候蛋不夠，好不好？好，那我們現在更進一步看怎麼來幫這些蛋農，目前蛋價就是一直在崩跌，就是剛才陳素月講的，那我們做一些事情啊！第一個，可不可以透過對國軍用雞蛋來加菜？這是不是一個方式？以前香蕉生產太多，那就買香蕉幫國軍來加菜啊！院長，我先跟你說，你知道這是誰的建議嗎？這是民進黨的鍾佳濱建議的，我覺得不分黨派，只要是幫人民解決問題的立委都是好立委，可以考慮一下這個事情嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
卓院長榮泰：這個絕對是有助於穩定供需。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
張委員啓楷：我跟你講，目前雞蛋每一天多出32萬顆，國軍如果有幫忙，這是一個方式，好不好？你們可以想一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
卓院長榮泰：現在已經在執行了，那我們也可以做，像我每天都吃兩顆蛋。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
張委員啓楷：大概在一個禮拜內做這個決定，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
卓院長榮泰：已經在做了。 |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
陳部長駿季：跟委員說明，我們已經有行文給國軍還有一些相關的團膳業者。 |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
張委員啓楷：你有跟他們聯絡是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
陳部長駿季：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
張委員啓楷：好，加油好不好？希望在一個禮拜內看到答案，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
陳部長駿季：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
張委員啓楷：第二個就是剛才在講的，你現在對雞蛋就補助關稅嘛！因為現在飼料老實說真的是很貴，已經比雞蛋的價格更高了，所以我覺得你要考慮去做一部分的補貼，可以嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
陳部長駿季：沒有，我們現在是分兩個部分，第一個部分，我們對進口飼料的營業稅已經減免到9月底，所以我們跟飼料公會在協商，希望能夠把這些降稅、免營業稅的部分回饋給生產端的雞農，對這個部分我們會先去處理。 |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
張委員啓楷：所以你在一個禮拜內提出你的評估報告，跟我們講你們要怎麼做，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
陳部長駿季：我們已經隨時在跟他們溝通了。 |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
張委員啓楷：這個要做。另外一個事情就是你昨天答應我的，這個你要馬上來做好不好？去年蛋太多，因為買了太多，對不對？你的方法是把它打成液蛋，因為打成液蛋之後可以保存1年，所以我就要問你了，你去年就知道蛋進口太多，所以你就做成液蛋，現在我們臺灣自己本土的蛋太多了，你為什麼都沒有想到趕快去收購一些進來，就先收購進來，一樣去做液蛋啊！跟去年一樣，去年蛋太多就做成液蛋，今年你去買了以後做成液蛋有兩個好處，第一個，你買了以後，市面上雞蛋的價格就上來了，我跟部長和院長講，如果你等一下宣布，我跟你保證明天雞蛋的價格就上來了。而且很重要的是，因為你做成液蛋，就可以用1年對不對？在明年還是以後如果真的有需要，就是所謂的產銷平衡了，你隨時蛋可以出去啊！好不好？可以做這個事情嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
陳部長駿季：我先跟委員報告，就是到市場裡面去把蛋收進來以後變成一個滾動倉儲的部分，對那個時間點要掌握得好，因為你的時間如果是先做的時候，我們產業界的這些蛋農認為反正有人收，就不會去淘汰老母雞，他就讓雞每天下蛋給你收，所以這個時間點…… |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
張委員啓楷：部長，你101招都是只有淘汰老母雞，你要想一下辦法，你昨天是答應你們要評估這個事情。 |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
陳部長駿季：對，我會評估，我是說要搭配著我們獎勵老母雞淘汰部分找一個適當的時間點去動手，而不是明天就去動手。 |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
張委員啓楷：所以這個事情你會做？ |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
陳部長駿季：對，那個時間點…… |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
張委員啓楷：會做，可是要一點時間嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
陳部長駿季：沒有，是對那個時間點要掌握得住。 |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
張委員啓楷：最晚差不多是什麼時候？ |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
陳部長駿季：沒有，我想我們在操作這個的時候，我們沒有辦法預告，如果預告的話，所有的蛋農就不淘汰老母雞了，所以我覺得時間點…… |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
張委員啓楷：我再問你另外一件事情，還有一個辦法很重要，我們以前的雞蛋其實是有銷到新加坡、銷到香港，甚至連美國都銷了，現在雞蛋剩這麼多，農業部趕快去幫忙外銷，有沒有可能？ |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
陳部長駿季：對，我們對這個方面也在努力啦！然後有關於到市場裡面去收的那個滾動倉儲的部分，我們會視時間點進場。 |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
張委員啓楷：來，部長，我再問你一件事情，我剛剛跟你講，你現在不是只有這兩千多萬顆，對不對？後續還有四千多萬顆不要再賣了，可能還出現一個問題，我來跟你討論一下，你那個蛋是包括去年超思進口的巴西蛋，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
陳部長駿季：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
張委員啓楷：我看了你那個公告，中央畜產會裡面有這個公告，院長，你看右上角，現在這些雞蛋從5月17號開始標售，我剛剛講的，我們有結論了，這個時間點蛋已經太多，再標售已經是不對了，可是另外有一個大問題，他賣雞蛋的時間是要賣到什麼時候？今年12月27號，滷蛋是賣到什麼時候？明年6月24號。部長，來…… |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告…… |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
張委員啓楷：我先跟你講，你先注意右上角，來，我再給你看下一張，去年超思的雞蛋最後進來，去年引起那麼多爭端的進口蛋，巴西蛋最後進來的有效期限就是9月，對不對？這個液蛋最多、最多可以放1年喔，它再怎麼撐、怎麼撐，撐到今年的9月27號應該也要到期了，對不對？你現在的蛋，你看看下面我寫的，你這個公告上面寫的，冷凍全蛋液跟滷蛋是什麼？是巴西蛋、土耳其、泰國、澳洲、美國等，你拿過期的蛋到市面上去賣喔？ |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
陳部長駿季：我想這個部分可能是委員的誤會，第一個部分，我們做加工的時候會根據……加工時的蛋一定不會過期才去加工，就是在效期之內就去加工了，加工後根據它加工的方法，它的產品會有不同的保存期限，這個保存期限一定是要符合相關的規定，因為每次加工的時候，它就會貼它的有效期限在那邊，不會說過期了還會賣。 |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
張委員啓楷：部長，對啊！要過期的雞蛋……過期了，你就能銷毀了，五千多萬顆你已經銷毀了嘛。 |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
陳部長駿季：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
張委員啓楷：我一直逼你，你銷毀了嘛。 |
| gazette.blocks[81][0] |
陳部長駿季：是，銷毀了。 |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
張委員啓楷：現在快過期了，就是即期蛋，你把它做成蛋液嘛。 |
| gazette.blocks[83][0] |
陳部長駿季：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[84][0] |
張委員啓楷：蛋液最長可以保存多久？ |
| gazette.blocks[85][0] |
陳部長駿季：它要跟它的那個製造的……包括液蛋或是蛋粉，那個…… |
| gazette.blocks[86][0] |
張委員啓楷：有可能超過1年？這個是…… |
| gazette.blocks[87][0] |
陳部長駿季：這個我要確認。 |
| gazette.blocks[88][0] |
張委員啓楷：這是專家跟全世界……標示最多就是1年，你要讓它變成化石液蛋，是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
陳部長駿季：不是，沒有，這個部分到底可以保存多久，會跟它的製程有關係，但是詳細的部分，我可能現在沒辦法回答你，我回去會去查。 |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
張委員啓楷：OK，好，因為現在所有的專家都講說最多1年，你也是專家，所以我尊重你，你回去查，如果有超過1年……如果沒有到1年…… |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
陳部長駿季：我可以保證我們釋出的時候絕對不會超過效期，如果說市場內的蛋是夠的話，我也絕對不會釋出，我一定會讓它報廢，我寧願報廢它也不會釋出而去影響到市場的蛋價。 |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
張委員啓楷：我今天是提醒你，如果你再…… |
| gazette.blocks[93][0] |
卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我會請部長很嚴肅地去看這件事情，一定站在民眾安全、食品安全這個條件上面，才做相關的加工跟釋出，如果違背了這個原則，我們寧願讓它就銷毀掉。 |
| gazette.blocks[94][0] |
張委員啓楷：很好。部長，今天禮拜五，你下禮拜一跟我說，這個事情很緊急，對不對？你總不能賣過期的蛋讓人家吃到肚子，這個是健康的問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[95][0] |
陳部長駿季：是，我們絕對會注意。 |
| gazette.blocks[96][0] |
張委員啓楷：你回去後馬上去問，然後下禮拜一跟我講。 |
| gazette.blocks[97][0] |
陳部長駿季：禮拜一我會馬上通知你。 |
| gazette.blocks[98][0] |
張委員啓楷：其實我的質疑是非常清楚，第一個，大部分的專家都說液蛋只能放1年，你是專家，我尊重你，請你回去問。 |
| gazette.blocks[99][0] |
陳部長駿季：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[100][0] |
張委員啓楷：第二個，畜產會的公告清清楚楚的講你現在賣的是什麼東西，包括當時的巴西蛋，我跟你說巴西蛋到9月就已經到期了，好不好？你是打在一起的嘛，你查清楚喔，好不好？不要賣到過期的。 |
| gazette.blocks[101][0] |
陳部長駿季：了解。 |
| gazette.blocks[102][0] |
張委員啓楷：我們繼續來看超思的問題，剛才說了那麼多，老實說，去年就是因為超思那時候買太多，銷毀完以後又有液蛋的問題衍生出來。到目前為止，我已經追超思……從2月份開始我已經好幾次質詢你，也索資了，這個案子很有可能就是我們國會調查的第一個案子，目前還有5個大問題，目前沒有合約，對不對？沒有實績，就是以前沒有經驗，第三，我跟你要證明，你到現在沒有給我，後面那兩個可能更嚴重。 |
| gazette.blocks[102][1] |
關於這個事情，前年去日本買雞蛋的時候，日本那時候是疫區喔！所以就一直跟你講說，你是從日本什麼地方來的？你到現在也沒有給我資料，我要你的檢驗證明。你聽我說，我先問你一件事情，我們看下一張，你看這張圖，2023（去）年巴西蛋要進來，超思去買那麼多巴西蛋進來的時候，那時候開了招商會，還提了要有條件，你要符合這個條件，包括超思才能夠去買雞蛋，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[103][0] |
陳部長駿季：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[104][0] |
張委員啓楷：上面寫的公開召集的主持人是誰？是你嘛，對不對？部長，那時候你是副主委嘛。 |
| gazette.blocks[105][0] |
陳部長駿季：對，我召開會議。 |
| gazette.blocks[106][0] |
張委員啓楷：對啊！你2023年都要召開會議，前年一樣是超思，為什麼前年就不用開？這不是黑箱，什麼才是黑箱？我再問一次，部長，我先把問題問清楚，去年同樣是超思，同一個超思，去年超思去巴西買蛋的時候，你自己開了公開召集的會議招商，你還訂了4個條件，符合了才讓超思去買蛋，對不對？現在超思出了很多問題，現在很多人去告，現在北檢裡面還告了陳吉仲，還告了中央畜產會的前主委，可是你看那時候你還做了這個事情喔！你現在往前推，前年你去日本買蛋，沒有會議，所以當然也沒有條件，現在我問你，你說還沒有合約，這不是黑箱，什麼是黑箱？「花彔彔」啊！所以到目前為止，我沒有看到它該有的東西啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[107][0] |
陳部長駿季：你可不可以給我1分鐘？ |
| gazette.blocks[108][0] |
卓院長榮泰：部長回答。 |
| gazette.blocks[109][0] |
陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我們要講清楚111年跟112年，112年的時候，超思第一個有合約，合約是符合這個條件，當初會用合約的方式，是因為那時候全球疫情的嚴峻程度、缺蛋程度是需要透過合約去做預約的生產跟交貨，所以那時候用合約。但是111年的時候，它的情況是不一樣的，同樣是缺蛋，但是它缺蛋的壓力沒那麼大，所以那個時候我們農業部是針對畜產會給它補助，用例行的產銷調節，並沒有用專案會議去討論，在這個前提之下，每個禮拜大概是一櫃的雞蛋進來，它是為了我們那時候的消費物價本身有點蠢蠢欲動，我們希望配合穩定物價的政策，以適當的進口雞蛋來做彌補。所以那個時候，我們說要用合約也可以，或用買斷的方式，我們都會尊重，而超思是用買斷的方式；所以111年是用買斷，112年是合約，它們是不同年度的。 |
| gazette.blocks[110][0] |
張委員啓楷：部長，現在人民的疑問，為什麼會說浪費人民納稅錢、有沒有官商勾結？這間超思只有50萬，前年的9月5號成立，是它誕生的日期，隔了不到一、兩個月，中央畜產會就給它一個大訂單──一億八千多萬，這裡面已經充滿了疑問，又沒有合約，你剛剛說用買斷的，這裡面都有很多事情要查、要再追啦！這就是為什麼要成立調查聽證委員會，要去查的第一個案子，這是第一個。聽我講，那你也要有一個證明方式嘛！去年你說它以前進口都是日本蛋，問題是那時候它也沒有經驗啊！你為什麼要找它？這麼小的一個公司，50萬資本額的公司，老闆出1,000塊錢，成立以後一、兩個月，馬上接到中央畜產會一億七、八千萬的蛋的生意。然後我跟你要為什麼找它的相關資料，它沒有經驗，查出來並沒有經驗，對不對？沒有像去年有經驗嘛！前年沒有嘛！更離譜的，你跟我說日本那邊有人推薦，我跟你要證明，你到現在也沒有給我啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[111][0] |
陳部長駿季：應該有吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[112][0] |
張委員啓楷：至少有一個推薦書吧？部長，我再問你，更嚴重的問題其實還在後面，我從6月13號向你索資，我剛才說過是為了人民的健康啊！院長，這是站在人民的立場，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[113][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[114][0] |
張委員啓楷：那時候日本爆發了禽流感，我跟你要兩個東西，從13號向你索資，到現在你不給我，我問的問題很簡單欸！既然是禽流感爆發的地區，那是日本哪個地方來的蛋？一定要有檢疫報告嘛！你為什麼到現在不給我？ |
| gazette.blocks[115][0] |
陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，這個東西其實在委員說明的時候，我回去就問了，而且查了，也看到了，就是說它在日本進口的時候是一個非疫生產區的，因為它是用府道縣市本身去做疫區的控管，所以我也確認那時候所進口的蛋並不是從疫區來的，防檢局在這個部分是有絕對的把關，至於沒有提供委員資料，我回去會去查，因為這個資訊是非常明確的，我在這邊可以確認。 |
| gazette.blocks[116][0] |
張委員啓楷：所以你要讓我問很明確的東西…… |
| gazette.blocks[117][0] |
陳部長駿季：對，一定跟你…… |
| gazette.blocks[118][0] |
張委員啓楷：是從日本什麼地方來的？ |
| gazette.blocks[119][0] |
陳部長駿季：對，我看過了。 |
| gazette.blocks[120][0] |
張委員啓楷：日本那個時候發生了什麼？它們叫做縣道，是哪個縣道裡面發生了疫情是清清楚楚，第一，它有檢疫的報告。 |
| gazette.blocks[121][0] |
陳部長駿季：對，所以這個部分我們一定…… |
| gazette.blocks[122][0] |
張委員啓楷：好，你回去查，你什麼時候可以給我？ |
| gazette.blocks[123][0] |
陳部長駿季：還有一個我要跟委員說明的就是，我在111年的時候不可能去預測112年會有那麼大的缺蛋狀況，然後去圖利超思，先讓它做業績，然後112年再讓它去賺這個錢。因為我們在111年絕對不可能預測112年會有這麼大的缺蛋狀況，這個我想是我必須要澄清的。 |
| gazette.blocks[124][0] |
張委員啓楷：問題就是裡面真的疑雲重重，你要證明它的話，第一個就要解釋為什麼…… |
| gazette.blocks[125][0] |
陳部長駿季：我們已經請檢調單位在查了。 |
| gazette.blocks[126][0] |
張委員啓楷：好啦！沒關係，這個我們找時間……就是它要有進口經驗，現在沒有嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[127][0] |
陳部長駿季：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[128][0] |
張委員啓楷：第二個，你說你要給我它的簡易報告和來源。 |
| gazette.blocks[129][0] |
陳部長駿季：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[130][0] |
張委員啓楷：什麼時候可以給我？一個禮拜？ |
| gazette.blocks[131][0] |
陳部長駿季：這個應該…… |
| gazette.blocks[132][0] |
張委員啓楷：你應該有了吧。 |
| gazette.blocks[133][0] |
陳部長駿季：應該下禮拜二、三就可以給你了。 |
| gazette.blocks[134][0] |
張委員啓楷：好，OK！我們再看一個重點，你看看，為什麼會出現這麼多問題？第一個，亮采那時候去買雞蛋，它到4月份就到期了，對不對？超思是9月去買的嘛，對不對？我去調資料，8月的蛋到底誰去買的？你跟我講只有兩家去買，對不對？一個是亮采，一個是超思，8月這批雞蛋，你看清楚。 |
| gazette.blocks[135][0] |
陳部長駿季：我看得非常清楚。 |
| gazette.blocks[136][0] |
張委員啓楷：對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[137][0] |
陳部長駿季：嗯。 |
| gazette.blocks[138][0] |
張委員啓楷：雞蛋誰去買的？ |
| gazette.blocks[139][0] |
陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我們在新聞稿有提到了，就是整個從4月以後的一些進口，有一部分是亮采進來的，然後由超思去賣的，由超思提款，對畜產會來講，它看到蛋，因為是買斷的，買斷的話，看到蛋驗收，然後根據發票去付款，這個程序是完整的。至於亮采跟超思的商業關係，它是屬於私法人的關係，以我們農業部為督導的角度來看的話，我們也覺得有一些必須澄清的，所以我們移送給檢調單位，我們請檢調…… |
| gazette.blocks[140][0] |
張委員啓楷：部長，我知道，你說移送檢調，我希望檢調沒有蓋牌，我們會好好追、我們會好好追，所以你現在是沒有解釋，到底9月是誰進口進來的，還是沒有？什麼人進口的？超思嗎？但9月超思還沒有成立啊！8月的雞蛋到底誰買的？ |
| gazette.blocks[141][0] |
陳部長駿季：它有一部分就是由亮采進來…… |
| gazette.blocks[142][0] |
張委員啓楷：不是，那時候超思還沒有成立，超思9月才成立，你8月買蛋當然不是超思進口的，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[143][0] |
陳部長駿季：就是亮采啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[144][0] |
張委員啓楷：是亮采嗎？亮采4月合約就到期了。 |
| gazette.blocks[145][0] |
陳部長駿季：它後面都是用買斷的，我剛才說了，4月以後不管是超思或是亮采都是買斷的…… |
| gazette.blocks[146][0] |
張委員啓楷：所以是亮采買的？ |
| gazette.blocks[147][0] |
陳部長駿季：都是用買斷的方式。 |
| gazette.blocks[148][0] |
張委員啓楷：所以是亮采去買斷？ |
| gazette.blocks[149][0] |
陳部長駿季：沒有，畜產會去買斷的部分，不是亮采買斷。 |
| gazette.blocks[150][0] |
張委員啓楷：跟誰買？ |
| gazette.blocks[151][0] |
陳部長駿季：畜產會買啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[152][0] |
張委員啓楷：跟誰買？你購買雞蛋不是只跟兩家，一間是亮采、一間是超思？ |
| gazette.blocks[153][0] |
陳部長駿季：對，就是亮采，我們跟亮采買。 |
| gazette.blocks[154][0] |
張委員啓楷：你為什麼之前說它合約4月就到期了，它還有雞蛋？ |
| gazette.blocks[155][0] |
陳部長駿季：沒有，這個是它3月跟4月有合約，4月以…… |
| gazette.blocks[156][0] |
張委員啓楷：我跟你講，你看一下那個圖裡面更嚴重的，超思去買雞蛋，在前年10月份那時候日本爆發了禽流感，結果你看那個圖，院長也順便看一下，這個有多嚴重？日本爆發禽流感的時候，它撲殺了很多雞，所以它的雞蛋應該是變少的，然後雞蛋價格就飆漲，對不對？結果我們出現兩個非常不合理的，你看，我們在前年10月份的時候，超思去買雞蛋，一飛沖天買那麼多雞蛋，以前只有買214、153、172，一下子跳到240、604、543；而且第二個，你看右邊的價格更奇怪，價格已經飆升了，結果超思去買進來的雞蛋竟然那麼便宜，一個量太大這是問題，第二個，價格那麼便宜，這個我會進一步再去查，到底裡面是什麼？當然這個解答就是部長跟我講的，你到時候如果拿出來它的檢疫報告不是從那邊拿，這個解答就可以解開；那你如果再不給我的話，這裡面就充滿了疑問，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[157][0] |
陳部長駿季：這個必須要澄清，這個我必須要澄清…… |
| gazette.blocks[158][0] |
張委員啓楷：我再問另外一個問題，因為時間關係，部長，你把…… |
| gazette.blocks[159][0] |
陳部長駿季：沒有，這個部分本身，它這邊提到的，我們8月份買的時候還是在非疫區，我一定會請防檢局提供相關的檢疫證明，它的出口檢疫證明可以證實。第二個部分就是，後續超思去買的比較便宜這些，那是它跟日本產地的關係，相對的就是，你有預約生產跟沒有預約生產用現貨的部分，它本身是不一樣的價格，這個部分我們還是尊重貿易商自己的私人行為。 |
| gazette.blocks[160][0] |
張委員啓楷：部長，看起來還是有很多疑點，第一個，我要的資料，你答應要給我的要趕快。第二，這個應該很有可能是國會調查委員會的第一案子，到時候我們在委員會好好查…… |
| gazette.blocks[161][0] |
陳部長駿季：我們相關的資料其實檢調單位已經在查了。 |
| gazette.blocks[162][0] |
張委員啓楷：沒有啦！部長，我知道那是前朝的事情，是陳吉仲的事情，你好好查清楚…… |
| gazette.blocks[163][0] |
陳部長駿季：111年的部分也在做調查…… |
| gazette.blocks[164][0] |
張委員啓楷：部長謝謝！接下來我要問麥寮的事情，你請回。院長，我先問你一下，昨天有17個團體北、中、南串聯去行政院門口陳情抗議，說麥寮電廠怎麼可以再延役啊？因為它跟台電簽的這個約5月31日就停止了，他們要求兩個東西，第一個，什麼延約的、怎麼訂新的契約或者是延長的？他們要求黑箱的合約要公開。 |
| gazette.blocks[164][1] |
第二個更重要的，他們就問你，台電這個契約裡面清清楚楚，到了5月31號就要停，而且已經燒了25年的煤炭了，政府的責任、政府的國策就是減碳，對不對？ |
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卓院長榮泰：是。 |
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張委員啓楷：結果你還一直讓它燒，他們就很生氣啊，他們有陳情書，你有接到嗎？ |
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卓院長榮泰：我知道委員所提的這個事情，重點來看，就是它合約期間已到，但是合約的發電量，因為配合當地縣政府生煤減碳的這個要求，降低了發電量，所以它合約的發電量還沒到，所以跟經濟部、跟台電有這樣的協調。 |
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張委員啓楷：所以院長，合約你看到的跟我看到的不一樣，你看到契約，我看到人民，對於那些人民來講，不是只有雲林，我住嘉義，從雲林、嘉義、臺南到高雄，往北走是彰化、南投跟臺中，他們都認為麥寮……你知道麥寮電廠是臺灣第幾大污染源嗎？ |
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卓院長榮泰：所以經濟部跟他們進行協商…… |
| gazette.blocks[170][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，我先問你，你知道全臺灣最大的污染源是哪裡嗎？ |
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卓院長榮泰：污染源很多…… |
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張委員啓楷：臺中…… |
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卓院長榮泰：有移動的污染源，有工業的污染源，有外來的污染源，都有。 |
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張委員啓楷：台中火力發電廠。 |
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卓院長榮泰：是，那個大家都知道，所以儘量用天然氣取代它。 |
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張委員啓楷：第二個我想你也知道，看一下，第二個就是麥寮電廠，這麼大的污染源不是只有雲林人忍受，嘉義人、臺南人、彰化人、臺中人也忍受25年。他看到那個合約上面寫得清清楚楚，5月31號就是要停，結果你們現在看到廠商的這個……另外你還沒看到一個很重要的，不是只有合約的內容，這跟你的國策是不一樣的，你要減碳，結果你現在繼續燒煤炭，對不對？第三個更重要，你有看到人民的健康嗎？有沒有看到人民的健康？ |
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卓院長榮泰：是，當然有。 |
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張委員啓楷：有，對不對？所以剛才說到雞蛋，我們要照顧蛋農。院長，今天我們要做一個很好的示範。 |
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卓院長榮泰：經濟部、台電有跟電廠協調如何進行，未來選擇最好的方式。 |
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陳次長正祺：25年前簽這個合約就是兩個條件，一個是發電量，一個是期間，要滿足它投資的成本。現在我們跟台塑公司重新談判、協商、修約，到明年年底不再續約，即使發電量沒發完也不再續了，這個是我們…… |
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張委員啓楷：沒有要等你到明年，人民哪有要等你到明年？我們已經忍受25年，明明跟你的國家政策不一樣，對人民的健康又有傷害，院長，你為什麼不能停？而且你一直講電是夠的，對不對？電都夠了，為什麼要讓麥寮電廠──全臺灣第二大污染源繼續傷害人民？ |
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卓院長榮泰：在整個發電系統的發電量當中，原來電廠的發電量都算在現在的供需當中。 |
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張委員啓楷：你是說假如缺少麥寮電就不夠？ |
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卓院長榮泰：我們會比較安全、穩定地供電。 |
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張委員啓楷：你不能夠這樣，你不是一直說電夠嗎？ |
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卓院長榮泰：夠。 |
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張委員啓楷：你一直講電夠了，現在……等一下，這個很重要，院長，你一直強調電是夠的，但是你剛才回答的意思是麥寮電廠要繼續燒煤電才夠。 |
| gazette.blocks[188][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們是整體規劃，台電的整個發電系統評估它的量，是這樣在評估…… |
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張委員啓楷：這個叫用肺去發電。 |
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卓院長榮泰：不是，這樣講不好。 |
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張委員啓楷：用肺去發電。 |
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卓院長榮泰：這樣講不好。 |
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張委員啓楷：兩個部分，你一直說電夠，這是一個。第二個，減碳不要再燒煤是你們政府的政策，結果現在繼續燒。 |
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陳次長正祺：報告委員…… |
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張委員啓楷：我要兩個東西，好不好？第一個，陳情的團體跟民眾很清楚要合約，對不對？而且裡面有一個很嚴重的問題，我先跟你講一下，你要延役，雲林縣政府要給燃煤的許可證，對不對？ |
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陳次長正祺：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[197][0] |
張委員啓楷：到目前為止都沒有給，雲林縣政府到現在都還沒給你燃煤的許可證書，你為什麼簽一個可能違法的合約？ |
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陳次長正祺：第一個，站在經濟部的立場，台電公司25年前簽的約我們要尊重，當時的合約並沒有明確講以期間為主或者以發電量為主，所以我們現在比較…… |
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張委員啓楷：次長，不好意思，你一直…… |
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陳次長正祺：改進的作法就是…… |
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張委員啓楷：次長，不好意思…… |
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陳次長正祺：第二個…… |
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張委員啓楷：你現在一直繞在發電，我跟你講一下，我已經查過了，你們的同仁都給我，台電都給我了，裡面沒有說保證要發多少的電量，這是第一個。我再講一次，目前我掌握的資料沒有這個事情。好，更嚴重的是我剛才講的，人民的健康，而且人民看得很清楚，合約的一個重點就是到今年5月31日。 |
| gazette.blocks[204][0] |
陳次長正祺：我們現在跟它講…… |
| gazette.blocks[205][0] |
張委員啓楷：為什麼不停下來？ |
| gazette.blocks[206][0] |
陳次長正祺：明年…… |
| gazette.blocks[207][0] |
張委員啓楷：好，沒關係。我們一樣，我們都尊重專業，把合約拿出來…… |
| gazette.blocks[208][0] |
陳次長正祺：報告委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[209][0] |
張委員啓楷：我們把合約拿出來攤給大家看，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[210][0] |
陳次長正祺：台電…… |
| gazette.blocks[211][0] |
張委員啓楷：看裡面有沒有剛剛講的容量要增加這個事情，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[212][0] |
陳次長正祺：報告委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[213][0] |
張委員啓楷：第二個，更嚴重的是像我剛剛講的，雲林縣政府如果沒有允許你，你怎麼去簽一個可能沒辦法落實的合約？這是個違法的合約。第三個更重要，院長…… |
| gazette.blocks[214][0] |
陳次長正祺：報告委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[215][0] |
張委員啓楷：人在公門好修行，你如果認為麥寮電廠──全臺灣第二大污染源會有問題，我覺得你應該出面踩煞車。 |
| gazette.blocks[216][0] |
卓院長榮泰：除了檢查合約，我希望能夠跟地方政府好好溝通，跟民眾也能夠好好溝通，大家再取一個最平衡的點來處理這個事情。 |
| gazette.blocks[217][0] |
張委員啓楷：縣政府到現在都沒要給你。 |
| gazette.blocks[218][0] |
陳次長正祺：沒有…… |
| gazette.blocks[219][0] |
張委員啓楷：不，現在你前後顛倒了，你應該先跟縣政府拿到許可以後再簽這個約。好，我們看最後一張。院長，你注意這件事情，那天你來拜會的時候，我就跟你講了，對不對？你堅持核三廠是要廢的，你有看到嗎？現在核三廠附近的四個鄉鎮都支持要延役，你看人家支持要嘛，那你偏偏不給嘛，對不對？麥寮人家不要嘛，你偏偏要給人家，你會不會永遠都是跟人民對著？院長，我要提醒一點…… |
| gazette.blocks[220][0] |
卓院長榮泰：核三廠是依照核管法的規定，而這個是民間的契約啊，我還是願意說我們站在人民的立場好好來考慮。 |
| gazette.blocks[221][0] |
張委員啓楷：你看一下，你知道核電一度電多少錢？1.12塊嘛，你知道嗎？你剛剛講的麥寮那個電多少？4.12塊，差不多四倍，你現在沒有污染的不用，你要用污染的；便宜的你不用，你要用貴四倍的。 |
| gazette.blocks[222][0] |
卓院長榮泰：如果算上核廢料的無法處理，這個不能用量計。 |
| gazette.blocks[223][0] |
張委員啓楷：好啦！院長，人在公門好修行。 |
| gazette.blocks[224][0] |
卓院長榮泰：好的。 |
| gazette.blocks[225][0] |
張委員啓楷：我們今天「以身適法」，我們很理性討論。 |
| gazette.blocks[226][0] |
卓院長榮泰：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[227][0] |
張委員啓楷：現在電的問題，讓人民不要缺電，產業一樣需要非常多的電。 |
| gazette.blocks[228][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們安全穩定供電為最優先。 |
| gazette.blocks[229][0] |
張委員啓楷：現在核能是全世界的趨勢，能不能腦袋不要停留在二十世紀，好不好？往前走，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[230][0] |
卓院長榮泰：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[231][0] |
主席：謝謝張委員，謝謝卓院長。 |
| gazette.blocks[231][1] |
報告院會，休息5分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢。現在休息。 |
| gazette.blocks[231][2] |
休息（15時51分） |
| gazette.blocks[231][3] |
繼續開會（15時56分） |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
88 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
院會-11-1-20 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
韓國瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
江啟臣 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
蘇清泉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
顏寬恒 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
馬文君 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
丁學忠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
郭昱晴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
陳素月 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
黃秀芳 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
蔡其昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
林德福 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
27 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-06-28 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1136401 |
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1136401_00002 |
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1136401_00003 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
施政質詢
對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─ |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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今天是國會改革議會第一天總質詢,今天是以身試法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
55.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
64.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我看你好像是嘗試的事其實應該是合適的事啦以心事法你本身就比較擅長協調阿但是就不是以身處罰啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
66.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
88.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
不只不要觸法,而且這不是常識的事,應該是來這邊做一個很合適的楷模、示範。事實上很簡單嘛,第一個,不要反質詢嘛。阿弟弟不要當木頭人,該知道的事情不要故意不回答。然後不要說謊話,就是不要做虛偽的陳述。很簡單嘛,對不對?你今天已經經過一整天了。今天一整天怎麼樣?感覺跟以前不一樣嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
89.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
111.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
到目前為止都不錯到目前為止都不錯不只是以身試著試就是有合適的試法了就可以好來我們從以身試法來開啟來我們來看一下這個看圖說故事好不好來我們來看這個圖我們的機能齁今年欠很多對不對所以這個今年我們去買進口的機能買1.5千萬多少對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
115.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
129.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
那後來當然有出現五千多萬顆這個蛋受賄的這個事情可是這個產銷的方式是對的,因為蛋不夠嘛對不對?進蛋隊嘛對不對?阿今年都必到病阿喔?今年到病太多嘛對不對?阿問問問請問議長阿今年呢這個韋國華再進口蛋進來對嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
134.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
162.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
當然要很有計劃的去生產而且要做調節的工作那國外進口的蛋他如果是慣例我們可能把它做另外一個使用但是不要影響市場上的價格跟民生的需求政府的政見就是產銷要平衡嘛對不對那今年太少了要加東西所以過關一萬對不對那今年這裡太多了應該減法嘛所以我們剛剛講的答案就是不會從國外再進來了可是最近都嚇爆中央市長會做一個動作喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
163.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
185.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
他把去年的進口蛋當初做成液蛋的還有柔軟的、茶葉蛋的包括超時的巴西蛋這個量我算過不是一千萬顆啦兩千兩百多萬顆放到市面上面去這個做法對嗎?已經太多了。以身試法的院長先回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
189.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
215.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我想農業部跟單商一定有相當的計劃跟用途這樣做,這個如果沒有影響到市場價格跟整個民生的穩定,所以要進一步的來評估,這不是單從一個數字上來考慮的。一定有影響,上禮拜產地一斤是27.5元,這禮拜落兩塊下去,而且已經快接近有史以來最低了, |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
216.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
229.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
最低了喔!他當然是有衝擊啊!當然是有衝擊啊!沒有沒有,我做一個比較理性的這個呼籲好不好?剛才陳素玥嘛,民進黨的立委也在呼籲啊!我們現在趕快再幫我們的鄧榮解決問題好不好?我們來想幾個方法。第一個, |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
237.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
259.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我昨天執行你完之後你現在不會再賣了先停下來我們先把它暫停因為他現在是公告公告的部分我們先把它停下來我從2月份開始追雞蛋了結果最近幾幾年各位你們從5月17號開始倒這個蛋出去很多雞籠是很抗議的因為很多雞籠也是雞裡面進動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
261.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
268.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
先停下來,先停下來,你這個有點像那個落井下石,恭喜你,他已經但就賣不出去,其實整整天要報仇是有報的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
269.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
292.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那個蛋已經多到有些那個,因為買飼料的錢還不夠啊,有些是拿去餵豬,因為要減少那個進到市面上那個蛋,那個數量嘛。結果你現在這邊還火上加油,一直氣啊,那句我們台灣話就這樣,生雞兩個沒生雞三個有,這個很不好啦。人民會這個政府應該多,我覺得部長平常評價也不錯,可是這個事情要趕快踩煞車,另外我請你們答應一件事情。 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
293.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
303.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我現在發現不是只有這兩千塊,兩千兩百萬塊嘛對不對?後期要再久年賣,要再還沒出來的加工蛋,做成液蛋的,茶葉蛋、滷蛋的,要再四千塊而已對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
304.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
306.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我們要求以民生穩定跟價格穩定來照顧大家這個當作唯一的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
335.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
364.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
今天很清清楚楚跟我們的全國民眾講,不會賣了,這是第一點。第二個,四千多萬顆,原則上也不會賣了,除非,除非到時候蛋不夠,好不好?好,那我們現在更進一步來看怎麼來幫這些蛋齁。目前就是一直在崩跌嘛,剛才陳師傅在講的。我們做一些事情啊,第一點可以嗎?透過國金桌桌有雞蛋來加菜,這是不是一個方針?以前香蕉太多就買香蕉啊,幫國金來加菜啊,一定我先跟你講齁,這誰的建議你知道嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
365.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
373.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這是民進黨的種植民建業啦!我覺得不分黨派只要是幫人民解決問題的立委都是好立委啦!可以考慮一下這個事嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
375.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
398.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這個絕對是有助於穩定...你沒聽我說,我們現在的雞蛋每一天多出32萬顆啦。國軍如果有幫忙,這是一個好不好,可以想一下。已經在執行了,那我們也可以做,現在我每天都吃兩顆蛋。好不好,大概一個禮拜內做這個決定好不好。我們已經有詢問給國軍還有一些相關的團戰業者。你有跟他聯絡了是不是?對,對。好,加油好不好,一個禮拜內看到答案,好不好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
400.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
413.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
你剛才講了,你現在雞蛋就給那些補助關稅嘛,看能不能,因為現在吃了,我們講實在的,現在是很貴的啦,他已經比那個雞蛋價格更高了,所以我覺得你要考慮一下,去做一部分的補貼,可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
414.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
443.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我們現在分兩個部分一個部分就是因為進口飼料我們的營業稅已經把它減免到9月底所以我們希望說飼料我們跟飼料公會在協商希望說他能夠把這些降稅有沒有免那個營業稅的部分能夠回饋給我們的我們個生產端的一個基農這個部分我們會先去處理所以你一個禮拜有沒有你一個禮拜內把你的評估報告你怎麼做我們已經隨時在跟他們溝通了還有另外一個事情就是你長大以外這台手機那台手機有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
444.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
468.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
九年能太多買到太多對不對?你的方法是把它打成液彈嘛,因為液彈打完液彈之後可以保存一年。我特別問你啊,你九年就知道能進口太多你就做液彈啊。啊現在我們台灣我們自己的本土能,太多了你想都沒想到說稍後去收購一些進來。收購進來啊,你一樣去做液彈啊,跟九年一樣,九年太多就做液彈嘛。今年你去買以後, |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
469.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
489.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
做成液彈有兩個好處,第一你買了以後市面上的雞蛋價格就上來了嘛。我跟你保證明天雞蛋的價格就上來了。而且很重要的,因為你做成液彈你可以用一年對不對。你每年是一年如果這麼有需要,就所謂的產銷平衡喔,你隨時當可以出去啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
491.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
510.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我先跟委員報告,就是到市場裡面去把彈收進來以後變成一個滾動倉儲的一個部分,那個時間也要掌握得好。因為你的時間如果先做的時候,我們產業界的這些彈籠反正有人收嘛,他就不會去淘汰老母雞,他就每天下彈給你收。所以這個時間點... |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
515.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
528.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
市長是答應說要評估這個事情對不對?對,我說時間點,那個時間點要搭配著我們的獎勵老母雞的淘汰的部分的適當的時間點去動手,而不是明天就去動手。所以這個事情你會做?對,那個時間點要掌握得住。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
534.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
548.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
沒有,這個我想我們在操作這個的時候,我們沒有辦法做預告。預告的部分,所有的彈籠這邊齁,他就,老母雞就不淘汰了。所以我覺得時間點...那以前的雞蛋其實有燒去新加坡、燒去香港,甚至連美國都燒了。現在雞蛋外剩這麼多? |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
554.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
572.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
農業部趕快去幫忙外銷有沒有可能?對,我們這個方面也在努力啦,然後那個有關於叫市長裡面去收的那個滾動倉儲的部分,我們會試時間點會進場。來,博定,我再問你一件事,你說你兩千萬賣出來,我剛跟你講,你現在不是只有這兩千多萬顆對不對,後續還有四千多萬顆不要再賣了,可能還出現一個問題齁,我來跟你討論一下,你那個蛋啊, |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
582.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
606.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
是去年包括巴西超市巴西蛋嘛對不對我看你那個公告中央續產會裡面有這個公告你看右上角一定你看這個右上角他這個雞蛋啊現在月五月十七開始喔飆售我等一下講啊那有結論啦嘛齁這個時間點已經太多在飆售已經是不對了可是另外一個大問題他賣雞蛋的時間要賣到什麼時候今年12月27號滷蛋賣到什麼時候明年六月二十四 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
612.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
639.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
你去年,保定來來我保定來我保定來,我先跟你講,我先跟你講,你先注意右上角,好來,我給你看下一張。你今年超市會給兩筒票一百,三,今年引起那麼多爭端的進口彈,巴西彈最後進來的有效期限就是到尾,對不對?所以最多最多,這個一彈人放一年喔,他再怎麼撐怎麼撐,撐到今年的9月27號應該要到期了,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
641.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
661.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
你現在的彈,你看下面我寫的,你這個公告上面寫的,冷凍前彈的液跟爐彈是什麼?巴西彈、土耳其、泰國、澳洲、美國。你拿過去的能到市面上去賣嗎?我想這個部分可能是委員的誤會。第一個部分就是我們做加工的時候會根據 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
663.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
664.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
對阿,阿你過期要過期的結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
689.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
690.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
但你想怎樣保存老古? |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
698.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
719.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
他要跟他的那個那個製造的包括你液氮或是氮粉啊那個我可能超過10年這個是自己專家跟這個專家跟全世界最多標示的10年你要變成化石液液氮是不是沒有這個部分到底可以保存多久會跟他的製程有關但是詳細的我可能現在沒辦法回答你我回去會去查OKOK好 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
720.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
742.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
因為現在所有的專家都講說最多一年了,我也是專家所以我尊重你,你回去查如果有超過一年。我可以保證我們絕對釋出的時候絕對不會超過效期,那如果說室內的蛋如果是夠的話我絕對也不會釋出,我一定會讓它報廢,我寧願報廢也不會釋出,去影響到我們市場的一個蛋價。 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
744.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
762.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我會請部長很嚴肅的去看這件事情,這個一定站在民眾安全、食品安全的這個條件上面,才做相關的加工跟釋出。如果違背了這個原則,我們寧願讓他就銷毀掉。好,那個部長,你明天下班前,今天拜我齁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
763.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
789.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
你下禮拜告訴我,這個事情很緊急,對不對?你總不能賣那個過期的蛋吃到肚子,這是健康的問題,好不好?你下禮拜拜告訴我,你到底有...其實我的質疑是非常清楚,第一台北的專家都說,蛋液只能放一年,因為你專家我尊重你,他回去問,第二,你續產會的公告清清楚楚講你現在賣的是什麼東西?包括... |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
791.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
818.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
當時的巴西彈。巴西彈我告訴你,到九月就一直停了。好不好?你是打在一起的嘛。OK,你查到情緒了嗎?好不好?不要賣到過期的。好不好?好來,我們繼續就來看超市的問題。剛才說到那一階段,就是因為你超市那時候買太多,銷毀完你又有液彈的問題才引申出來。超市到目前為止,我已經從2月份開始好幾次質詢你也所知了嘛。這個案子很有可能就是我們國會,國會調查的第一個案子。 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
819.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
843.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
國會調查的第一個案子目前還有五個大問題目前沒有合約對不對沒有時機就是沒有以前沒有經驗了第三我要證明你到現在沒有給我後面那兩個可能更嚴重這個事情我們去日本前年去買雞蛋的時候日本那時候是E區喔所以一直跟你講說你從日本什麼地方來你到現在還沒給我我要你檢驗證明你聽我說來來來我先問你一個事情來我們看下一張來你看這張圖來 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
850.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
851.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
你2023年都要召開會議。你是哪? |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
879.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
900.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
市長你昨年同樣是超市,是怎樣?今年就不用開?這不是黑箱,什麼才是黑箱?我再問一次,我問一次。市長我先把問題問清楚。你去年同樣是超市,同一個超市。今年為超市去巴西買農的時候,你自己開了公開召集的會議,召商。你還訂了 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
902.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
929.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
四個條件符合財政超知金買單,對不對?雖然超知出了很多問題,現在很多人去告。現在北檢裡面還告了陳吉仲,還告了中央續產會的前書委。可是你看那時候你還做了這個事情,你現在往前推,前年你再一次買兩個,沒有會議。所以當然也沒有條件。現在我問你,你說還沒有合約,是不是黑箱什麼是黑箱?回落落啊。所以到目前為止為止我沒有看到他該有的東西啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
930.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
946.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
可以給我1分鐘嗎?我跟委員說明,112年,我們要講清楚112年的時候,超市第一個有合約,那合約是符合這個條件,那當初會用合約的方式是因為那時候全球的一個疫情 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
946.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
946.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
韓國瑜 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
965.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
965.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
﹚張啓楷 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
984.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
987.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
現在人民的疑問為什麼會講說有沒有納匯人民納稅錢有沒有關上過節嗎?這間超市不知道辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1013.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1022.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
前年的9月5日成立誕生的日期,隔了不到1、2個月,你就給他一個大訂單,中央市長會就給他一個大訂單, |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1025.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1047.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
這裡面已經充滿了疑問你又沒有合約你剛講說用買斷這裡面都有很多事情要查要再追啦這就是為什麼要成立調查聽證委員會要去查第一個案子這是第一點聽我講那我也跟你那你有個證明方式嘛你就說李祖古你以後他以前進國都巴西蛋啊進國都日本蛋啊問題是那時候他也沒有經驗嗎你為什麼要找他這麼小的一個公司50億欸50萬資本額的公司老闆出1000塊錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1053.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1082.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
馬上成立後一兩個月,叫你中央市長會,七百千億的這個蛋的這個生意。然後我跟你要,他的,為什麼你要找他?他沒有經驗,查出來沒有經驗,對不對?沒有像去年時候有經驗嘛,前年沒有嘛。更離譜的,我告訴你,你告訴我一部分那邊有人推薦,我跟你要證明,你到現在也沒有給我啊。應該有吧。至少一個推薦書吧。來,保證我再問你,比較嚴重的其實是要在後面,來來來。我從6月13日去你所知啊,我剛才講過,為了人民的健康啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1083.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1090.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
這是站在人民的立場。那時候日本爆發了禽流感。我問你很簡單,既然是禽流感爆發的地區,日本兩個地方來的蛋啊,一定要檢疫報告嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1105.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1133.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
你為什麼到現在不給我我跟委員說明齁這個東西其實委員在說明的時候我回去就問了而且查了也看到了就是說他在日本進口的時候他是一個非疫生產區因為他是用輔導縣市本身去做疫區的控管所以我也確認說那時候所進口的蛋並不是從非疫區來的那防檢局在這個部分是有絕對的把關那至於說沒有提供委員我回去會去查 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1134.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1142.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
因為這個資訊是非常明確的。我在這邊可以確認。對,所以你要給他們很明確的名字。對,一定會跟你...對,我看過了。因為日本那個時候發生了什麼...他們叫做縣道嘛,那個縣道裡面發生了疫情。他有檢疫的報告嘛。對,所以這個部分我想我們一定... |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1152.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1166.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
還有一個我要跟委員說明就是說我在111年的時候我不可能去預測說112年會有那麼大的缺氮然後會去圖利超市先讓他做業績然後112年再去讓他去賺這個錢因為我們在112年絕對不可能預測112會有這麼大的缺氮這個我想我必須要澄清的 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1173.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1173.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
為什麼會出現這麼多問題? |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1203.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1221.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
他到4月份就到齊了對不對?他超市是到外去買的嘛對不對?我去調資料,你背後的資料到底是誰去買的?你跟我講只有兩家去買對不對?一個量財一個超市,啊背後這杯芥朗你看清楚我看得非常清楚 對不對?芥朗什麼人買? |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1223.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1235.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我跟委員說明我們在新聞稿也提到了就是說在整個從4月以後的一些進口有一部分是量財它進來的然後由超市去賣的由超市提款對續產會來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1238.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1239.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
所以你現在是沒有解釋那到底9月是誰進來還是沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1266.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1268.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
三、四月以後的不管是超市或量貸都是買斷的,都是用買斷的方式。 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1295.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1323.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
所以是量財去買斷?對,我們沒有,序長會去買斷的部分,不是量財買斷。是誰買?是序長會買啊。是跟誰買?就是只要有人...你買要多少不是兩斤,一斤量財,一斤超市啊。對,就是量財,就是量財,我們跟量財買。跟量財買,啊你為什麼之前說他4月就到期啊,他要有多少?沒有,這個就是說,他是3月跟4月有合約,4月以後...部長這個我們再好好查,另外一個更嚴重的,我告訴你,你看一下那個圖裡面,更嚴重的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1324.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1351.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
超市去買雞蛋阿在前年的10月份的時候日本那時候爆發了10月份的時候爆發了禽流感結果你看那個圖院長你順便看一下這個有沒有多嚴重日本發生禽流感的時候他扑殺了很多雞所以他的雞蛋是應該是變少然後雞蛋價格就飆漲嘛對不對結果我們出現兩個非常不合理的你看我們在前年的10月份的時候超市去買雞蛋 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1353.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1359.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
一飛沖天買這麼多,你看以前只有買214、153、172,一到一跳到240、604、543而且第二個你看右邊的價格也是很奇怪,價格已經飆升了結果超市去買一百多兩下就收 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1371.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1371.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我這個必須要澄清 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1391.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1420.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
沒有 這個部分本身就是說他這邊提到的我們8月份買的時候還是在飛魚區這個是我一定會請房檢局提供這個相關的一個檢疫證明他的出口的檢疫證明可以證實那第二個部分就是後續的這些超市去買的比較便宜那是他跟日本產地的關係那相對的就是說你有預約生產跟沒有預約生產用現貨的部分他本身是不一樣的一個價格那這個部分我們還是尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1421.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1440.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
就是貿易商自己的私人行為我一定看起來還是很多疑點第一個我要的資料你要答應給我的要趕快這個應該是很有可能就是國會調查委員的第一個案子到時候我們再委員會調查我們相關的資料其實檢調單位已經在查了我講這前朝疫情的事情陳吉仲的事情111年的部分也在做檢調調查我接下來要問那個賣料的事情你請回來經濟部因為我先問你一件事收集 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1450.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1476.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
有很多團體17個團體北中南喔串聯去行政院門口陳情抗議阿說那個賣了電廠怎麼可以再研議阿因為他跟台電簽了這個約沒辦法一直停下嘛他們要求兩個東西第一個什麼原約的什麼訂了新的這個契約或者是延長的他們要求黑箱的合約要公開第二更重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1478.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1493.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
人民、政府、台電這個一頓夜裡面清清楚楚,到了5月30日就要停啊。而且已經燒了25年的煤炭了。政府的責任、政府的國策就是減碳嘛,對不對?結果你這還讓他燒,他們就很生氣啊。他們有陳情書啊,你有接到嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1494.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1522.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我知道委員所提的這個事情這重點來看就是他期間已到合約期間但是合約的發電量因為配合當地縣政府生煤減碳的這個要求降低了發電量所以他合約的發電量還沒到所以跟經濟部跟台電有這樣的協調所以議長合約你看到我今天看不一樣你看到企業我看到人民對那些人民來講他們不是只有婚姻而已我帶自己婚姻、家庭、台南、到高雄 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1523.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1537.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我們北州、彰化、南投跟台中,他們都認為賣了那個,你知道賣了那個電廠是台灣第幾大污染源嗎?所以經濟部跟他們進行再協商之後?一定我先問你一下,你知道台灣最大污染源是哪裡?全台灣最大的污染源。 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1546.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1570.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
臺中火力發電廠,這個大家都知道,所以盡量再用天然氣來取代他。第二個看一下,第二個就是賣料。結果這麼大的一個污染源,不是只有雲林人,嘉義人、台南人、中華人、台中人,人數15年,他看到那個合約上面寫的清清楚楚,5月31號就是要停啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
1571.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
1574.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
今天我們要做一個很好示範經濟部台電有跟電廠來做協調如何進行未來選擇一個最好的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
1601.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
1630.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
發言委員因為當時25年簽這個約喔當時就是兩個條件一個是發電量一個是期間要滿足他投資的成本那現在我們跟財經公司同心談判協商修約到明年年底不再續約即使發電量沒發完也不再續了這個是文法阿就已經忍受了25年然後明明跟你的國策又國家政策又不一樣然後對人民的健康又有傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
1631.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
1631.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
已定 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
1633.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
1661.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
你為什麼不能停?而且你一直在講喔你電是有夠的對不對?你電都夠了你為什麼要讓麥寮電廠全團電汙染呢?積極傷害我們人民呢?在整個發電的系統發電量當中這個原來的這個電廠的發電量都算在現在的供需當中啦。你是說如果站麥寮你電就沒夠?我們會比較安全穩定的供電。你不能夠這樣你不是一直講電有夠啦你一直講電有夠啦那你現在...等一下等一下這個很重要一定一定 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
1662.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
1677.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
你一直強調電是過的,你現在剛才回答的意思就是要不要繼續燒煤,電才過?我們是整體的規劃,台電的整個發電系統它的評估它的量是這樣在評估整個規劃。這個叫以用廢氣發電嗎?不是不是,這樣講不好。一定要說你電有夠嗎?這是一個嘛,第二,減碳不要再燒煤是你的政策啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
1687.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
1714.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
你們政府的政策阿結果你現在繼續燒阿我要兩個東西好不好第一個陳情的團體跟民眾很清楚要合約嘛對不對而且裡面有一個很嚴重的問題我要先跟你講一下你要研議那要引領縣政府要有燃煤的許可證對不對到目前為止都沒有給喔婚姻管境戶到現在還沒給你這個燃煤的許可證書 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
1717.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
1736.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
你為什麼今天簽一個簽一個可能合法的約?報告委員這第一個喔政府跟這台電公司在經濟部立場當時25年簽的約我們要尊重喔那當時的約並沒有明確的講說以期間為主或是以發電量為主所以我們現在的的比較比較這個經濟重瓦就是你現在一直罩在那個罩在那個發電量我告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
1743.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
1767.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
我已經去查過了,包括你們的同仁都給我,台電都給我嘛,裡面沒有說要保證說要發多少的電量,這是低劣。我再講一次喔,目前我掌握的資料沒有這個事情。第一個好,更嚴重的對我剛才講,人民的健康嘛,而且人民看到的就清楚,你的合約裡面一個重點是到今年的5月30日嘛,那為什麼不停下來,好沒關係,來來來,好來,我們一樣嘛齁,我們都尊重專業啦,把合約拿出來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
1772.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
1798.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
報告委員 把合約拿出來我們給大家看嘛好不好 看裡面有沒有剛講的有沒有剛講的這個容量要增加這個事情好不好 報告委員 啊第二個還要嚴重的還要嚴重的其實我剛才說的 婚姻管政府如果沒有允許你你怎麼去簽一個可能沒辦法落實的合約這是個違法的合約啊 其實第三方更重要啦 硬定 人在公文好修行你若認為麥寮電廠這個全台灣第二大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
1800.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
1801.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
你堅持河山廠是要廢的嗎?你有看到嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
1827.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
1849.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
你現在河山廠附近的四個鄉鎮都支持要研議結果你看人家支持要嘛然後你偏偏不給嘛對不對阿賣寮人家不要嘛你偏偏要給人家你是跟人民會不會是一點都是對著河山廠是依照河管法的規定阿這個是民間的契約阿我們兩個我還是願意說我們站在那裡好好地來考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
1878.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
1879.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
好,謝謝好 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
1897.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
1903.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
謝謝張委員。謝謝卓院長。報告院會休息五分鐘,休息之後我們繼續進行質詢。 |