| IVOD_ID |
154356 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154356 |
| 日期 |
2024-06-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-19-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
17 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-06-27T10:36:56+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-06-27T10:48:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:04 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726cb5c22be70f55fa7821a3f23b3ad13ea2b8981cfbc017771b1f2764423691c52a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳超明 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:36:56 - 10:48:00 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】） |
| gazette.lineno |
580 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
陳委員超明：（10時37分）主席，首先有請農業部陳部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：我們請陳部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
陳部長駿季：委員早。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
陳委員超明：部長好。部長，我跟你請教，你是幾年次的？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
陳部長駿季：47年次。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
陳委員超明：47年次，好，這樣瞭解。部長，每次在委員會的質詢還有院會的總質詢，我一直強調，苗栗縣一定要成立低丘緩坡示範區，苗栗縣的土地裡面有86%是山坡地，我們受到限制，苗栗縣的喉嚨被鎖住了。我跟你說實際的情形，苗栗的山坡地1甲地大概是1,500萬到2,000萬，講難聽一點，在都市的臺北市、新北市，大概買不到10坪到20坪的房子，你看這個比例差了多少。部長，這真的對農民很不公平，農民又分成兩種，都市計畫區裡面農地的農民，都市計畫外一些農地的農民，他們的命運都不一樣，為什麼一樣的農地，都市計畫內的農地可以市地重劃，就不用承擔糧食安全各方面的問題，為什麼都市計畫外的農地要受到種種限制？尤其苗栗縣的山坡地占了86%，你們知道嗎？你們的農發條例一來，你們聽那些學者在講，只有說山坡地要保持安全。我跟部長說，現在的百姓太聰明了，自己蓋的房子比誰都照顧得好，不能發生問題。只為了一昧的假清高，把農民的財產都降下來，以前1甲地可以賣到三千多、兩千多，現在剩下一千五還沒有人要，這是天到地的差別，農民是靠這些財產過日子，現在老農民為什麼還在耕種呢？是做健康的，不是要賺錢的，給你農業部一個面子而已。所以在這裡我要再三跟你強調，我希望你跟我還有水保署跟我下去看，你看到時就會覺得退休的時候要到那個地方住，鳥語花香、人間仙境。為什麼現在不給開發？其實裡面你有開發，包括農地的耕作，你甚至可以組織農耕隊，你們要大膽的改革啊！你的AI內閣要有行動也要有創新，像我86%的山坡地都讓你們限制到死掉了，大家不敢種，也沒人敢去買，大家都很天真，沒有依照地形地物的狀況，學者是這樣寫，而且當初是在一個潮流上沒有人敢反對。我現在跟你要求一項，我比你年紀還大，但是我永遠是行動，我永遠敢於創新，我帶你來看，我們在苗栗縣政府裡面討論完我們山坡地要如何開發，我要把苗栗縣的山坡地打造像日本輕井澤一樣那麼舒適，也可以減低了很多都市人口的壓力，年紀大一點的人，可以在苗栗縣來康養非常好，觀念要改變。因為苗栗縣有獨特的地方，到臺北市高鐵40分鐘；臺中18分鐘；到高雄大概七十幾分鐘，而且從苗栗縣的高鐵站到苗栗縣每一個鄉鎮30分鐘就會到，非常輕鬆，是非常好的一個地方。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][1] |
我在這再三提出來，我覺得我們做事情一定要大膽、要創新、要物盡其用，不是這樣綁死在那邊，滿山滿野以前種的水果都沒有人在摘啊，缺工缺的很嚴重，年輕人也不想做，我們也要改變一下方式，換你來支持我這個計畫，我帶你去看，我們把問題提出來。真的是好地方，被你們農發條例限制變成垃圾，我一定要活化！不用怕，你給我們一個試驗地區，由縣政府來指導，法案跟你們討論通過以後做一次給人家看，這樣臺灣才會進步，而不是永遠保守在那邊什麼都不能破壞。我常常講都市人禮拜一到禮拜五你們在這邊燈紅酒綠，禮拜五晚上到我們鄉下地方，禮拜六、禮拜天我們的青山、綠水、好山、好水都可以讓你享受。你們有幫忙我們什麼？為什麼都市裡面的農地可以重劃變為住宅區、變為商業區，為什麼我們山坡地要特別受到你們規限，現在缺工幾乎沒有人在種，有時候你看到會覺得很悲哀，跟我說：超明，我山上的梨子，我那邊橘子都種的很多，你自己去摘，但誰要去爬？ |
| gazette.blocks[5][2] |
大家不要食古不化以為自己都清流，我這個叫做務實派，要不要答應支持我？我們兩個，還有水保局跟我去看，三個人，半天給你看到民間的力量有多麼偉大，創造一個美好地方，能實現大家人生要來修養、安養的一個地方。我講的你聽懂了嗎？你不跟我回答，我以為聽不懂，我國語太差了。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
陳部長駿季：委員我很仔細的聽，我記得委員在上次的總質詢也有提到，我那時候也承諾在會期結束以後，我一定會安排我的同仁好好的去看，看怎麼樣…… |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
陳委員超明：不要太多人，幾個人去看一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
陳部長駿季：我知道，我不會帶一群人啦，不會這樣，就是幾個人我們去瞭解。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
陳委員超明：再怎麼講他們也不要打擾人…… |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
陳部長駿季：因為我知道委員的那個想法…… |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
陳委員超明：當然你也瞭解很多地方，當初已經做了…… |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
陳部長駿季：然後我們看看怎麼樣用一個方式去協助，特別在坡地，因為苗栗地區的坡地大概有六萬多公頃，比平地多，都坡地啦，怎麼樣去做一個比較好的措施…… |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
陳委員超明：所以我們多可憐咧！稻子要種給大家吃，也不會開發、也不會進步，哪有這樣的道理？改變一下啦！世間這樣太不公平了。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們不能用……因為農地的價值不是只有錢而已啦，因為農地的價值，你如果跟都會區土地的價值在比，我覺得那個就是去弱化了農業的價值啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
陳委員超明：不是弱化，我還會再給你強化，我敢這樣跟你講。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
陳部長駿季：那很好啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
陳委員超明：我的觀念提出來你一定會認同，那是你們怕死，怕人去修理你們，沒做過你怎麼知道好壞？好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
陳部長駿季：好，我會去瞭解。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
陳委員超明：今天講到農業移工，現在的狀況失聯移工是占了一大部分啦，在農忙的時候看你部長夠不夠力，你外來的移工，現在從6,000人到1萬2,000人調度的問題，每一個農產品產季都不一樣。現在依我瞭解，這些農民要叫臺灣人來做，沒什麼人要做，要去拜託，拜託到很沒面子，那些主力才是主力，我先偷偷的跟你說。其實有時候不要感謝他們，為什麼？那段時間大家寧願錢高一點給他們，他們要出來做，永遠你要記得一個觀念，這些移工一進來他就是要賺錢，那一段時間有給他賺錢，他就會努力做，臺灣人做一天，他半天就給你完成了，我跟你講我碰很多，我在地方跑都會被問到這個問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][1] |
第二個，關於移工要進來，你們以農會系統的方式我也支持，但是我告訴你…… |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
陳部長駿季：合作社也有啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
陳委員超明：農業系統有放款的單位，當然也有輔導的單位，比較官僚一點，我說這句話不要以為就是我們那邊的農會，我相信你不會，我是把實情告訴你，因為我要替你解決問題…… |
| gazette.blocks[21][1] |
另外，我碰到了幾個農會的青年人不錯，像我們苑裡農會，像我們的西湖農會那些青農不錯，其實你真的要調用，農會行動可能會比較緩慢，那些青農都很熱心，不單是耕作，而且是地方有實力的，他認識的人很多，好好把持這個是重要的樁腳。所以他們為了要服務，將來他們要在地方發展的時候，只要農民來拜託他，他就會去幫解決問題，快速……好好的運用有效率的青農，我看過我們苑裡的青農真的很團結，也真的在做事情，西湖的也不錯，每一個地方的青農培養出來不一樣。我覺得這樣的青農，他有農業各方面的人在那邊，他們反應的速度很快，調整人力好好整合給他們去運用一下，可能會非常快。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][2] |
當然未來CPTPP進來，我們農會會碰到更大的麻煩，現在因應好，外來勢必是我們以後農業的主力，現在沒人要做了，我跟你說真的，而且收穫也不高，只維護他的土地，這些老人在做什麼？這叫做健康的啦！好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
陳部長駿季：謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
主席：好，謝謝陳委員。接下來我們請賴瑞隆委員做詢答，謝謝。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
302 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-19-17 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
林岱樺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
邱議瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
呂玉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
賴惠員 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
黃仁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
洪申翰 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
葉元之 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
235 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-06-27 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1136701 |
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1136701_00006 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢 |
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主席好首先有請我們農業部我們的陳部長我們請陳部長委員長部長好部長我自己請教你幾年出的47年次47年次好我這樣了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
30.663 |
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54.755 |
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那部長我每次在委員會的執行還有我們院會的總執行我一直強調苗栗縣一定要成立第一區反撲四萬區苗栗縣的土地裡面86%是山坡地我們受限到苗栗縣的這個喉嚨被鎖住的我告訴你一個實際的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
60.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
89.155 |
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苗栗的山坡地一甲地大概是一千五百萬到兩千萬說到拍拖地在土地台北市新北市大概買不到十坪到二十坪的房子啊你看這比例差了多少啊我也希望部長這開始對農民很不公平農民又分成兩種都市計劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
91.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
117.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
區裡面農地的農民都市計劃外一關農地的農民為什麼一樣的農地都市計劃內的農地可以濕地重挖他說不要承擔了糧食的安全跟外面的問題為什麼都市計劃外的農地要受到種種限制尤其苗栗縣的山坡地佔了86% |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
119.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
142.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
您知道嗎?你們在農挖條例以來,您條例學術在說,只要說山坡地保持安全,我告訴你們,現在北省太窮了,自己去的地方必須要照顧得好,不能發生問題。那主要為了一片的甲青溝,把農民的財產都把它降下來, |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
143.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
172.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
以前一甲地可以賣到三千多兩千多現在剩下一千五還沒有人要那是天道地的差別農民是客家宅散地國家宅散現在老農民在工作做什麼呢做健康的不是賺錢的自己農業部搞一個民主地所以我在這我要再三跟你強調我希望你跟我還有水寶石的跟我下去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
173.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
181.269 |
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你看到的時候你覺得退出的時候就要到那個地方來治鳥語花香人間仙境 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
182.912 |
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204.378 |
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那因為開挖現在為什麼不給你們想其實裡面你有開挖包括你農地的耕種你甚至可以組織農耕隊裡面要大膽的改革啊我們要有行動也要有創新你的AI內閣像我山坡地86%都在那裡喊著要洗洗地啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
205.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
211.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我現在要求一件事我比你年紀還大但是我永遠是行動我永遠敢於創新 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
228.069 |
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241.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我帶你來看我一定我們在苗栗縣政府裏面討論完我們山坡地要如何開發我要把苗栗縣的山坡地打造像日本輕型車一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
244.456 |
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259.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
來個試試也可以減低了很多都市人口的壓力年紀大的一點一點的人可以在苗栗縣來康養非常好觀念要改變因為苗栗縣有獨特的地方到台北市高鐵40分鐘台中18分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
263.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
273.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
到高雄那邊大概70幾分鐘而且苗栗縣的高鐵苗栗縣政府到苗栗縣每一個鄉鎮30分鐘就會到很緊張的很好一個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
279.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
306.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我再三提出來我覺得說我們做事情一定要大膽,我們要串心,我們要物盡其用,不是那麼白癡在那,滿山滿嶺以前種的水果都沒有人在摘啊,吹公吹得很動,年輕人也不想做,人家也要改變一個方式,旁邊要來支持我這個結尾,我帶你去看,我們把問題提出來,真的是好地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
308.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
330.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我被你們農化條例限制變成垃圾我一定要活化阿免驚你給我們一個試驗地區由縣長來指導法案跟你們討論通過以後做一次給人家看這樣不像台灣的進步永遠你保守在那邊什麼的不能破壞我常常講 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
331.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
355.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
都市人禮拜一到禮拜五你們在這邊燈紅巧麗。禮拜五晚上到我們鄉下地方禮拜六禮拜天我們的青山綠水好山好水都在你鄉上。為什麼都市裡面的農地可以重劃?變為自宅區變為商業區?為什麼我們山坡地要特別受您規限? |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
357.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
366.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
現在施工幾乎沒有人在種：有時候你看到很悲哀：誰要去爬：要不要答應支持我這樣：我們兩個：還有水保局跟我去看：三個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
383.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
395.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
半天給你看到民間的力量有多偉大他創造一個美好的地方之後他們都實現大家人生要來修養安養的一個地方在 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
403.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
413.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我記得委員在上次的總執行也有提到嘛那我那時候也承諾在我們的會期結束以後我一定會安排我的同仁好好的去看不要太多人 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
415.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
419.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我舉個人去看一看當然你會瞭解很多地方 當初以前做了這個說明 可有辦法可能的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
438.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
443.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
在我還要請給我們大家 還沒開發還沒進步 怎麼會這樣逐漸改變醫社啦 我跟委員報告 我們不能用農地的階段 不是只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
451.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
452.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
今天講到農業移工 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
480.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
503.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
啊現在狀況,失聯移工是佔了一個大部分那在流氓的時候看你部長夠不夠力你外來的移工現在從6000人到12000人條度的問題每一個農產品產的季節的問題都不一樣所以現在依我了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
504.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
530.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這農民要叫台灣人來做,沒人什麼人要做,要去拜託,拜託到很沒民主的那些主力才是主力,我先插頭跟你講其實有時候我們要感謝他們,為什麼?那段的時間大家寧願錢高一點給他們,他們又出來做永遠你記得一個觀念,這些移工一進來他就是要賺錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
531.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
541.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
談了一段時間又給他賺錢他就會問一座台灣人做一半天就把你完成了我跟你講我碰到很多我在地方跑都會問這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
543.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
572.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
第二個關於移工要進來農會你們以農會系統我也支持但是我會講農會系統歷史有換款的單位當然也有輔導的單位比較關咬一點我講這句話也就是我們的農會但是我相信不會我是把實情告訴你因為我要替你解決問題我要把真的錢另外我碰到了幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
574.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
599.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
農會的青年人不錯 像我們縣里農會 像我們的西湖農會 那些啊 青農不錯其實你真的在調用 那些農會 行動到緩慢 那些青年 青農都很多新的 不單更做 而且是地方有實力的 他認識的人很多 好好把持 這個是重要的裝潮 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
600.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
614.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
所以他們為了要服務將來他們要在地方發展的時候只要他的農民來拜託他他就會去幫他找解決問題快速好好的運用這個有效率的青龍 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
615.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
637.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我看過我們縣裡的青龍真的很團結也真的在做事情西湖的也不錯每一個地方的青龍培養出來不一樣我覺得你用這樣的青龍他有你農業各方面的人在那一邊他們還用的速度很快調整人力好好指揮給他們去應用一下可能非常快 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
639.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
661.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
當然未來我們CPTPP進來我們會更到 農業會更到更大的麻煩現在因應好 外來是來是我們以後農業的主力 現在沒有人要做 我只是跟你講而且收穫也不高 只維護他的土地 哎呀啦 我要去做什麼 只有做健康的啦 |