| IVOD_ID |
154117 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154117 |
| 日期 |
2024-06-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-1-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-06-20T10:06:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-06-20T10:17:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ceaf6abec8b4a6d71adaf1859135dcc9dd1cafa7fa6f2716d9cf7c665f384393582eaed42b6d64d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
莊瑞雄 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:06:00 - 10:17:00 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-06-20T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議（事由：審查「立法院職權行使法」修正部分條文、「中華民國刑法」增訂第五章之一章名及第一百四十一條之一條文等覆議案。） |
| gazette.lineno |
475 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
莊委員瑞雄：（10時6分）謝謝主席，有請行政院卓榮泰院長，還有請法務部鄭部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請卓院長備詢、請法務部長備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
莊委員瑞雄：院長好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
卓院長榮泰：莊委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
莊委員瑞雄：我想今天整個覆議案，在立法院整部法律審完以後進入這樣的程序，我個人有很大的一個感慨，這一次整個國會職權行使法，就是國會改革法案，衍生到最後，民眾認為這是一個國會擴權法案，我為什麼說覺得很感慨呢？民主進步黨不管是在野，或者是執政，其實國會改革民主進步黨都有提出方案，在野的時候我們也提出，我們執政了以後，在國會是多數，我們也提出，那為什麼到最後都沒有繼續審議下去呢？國會沒有共識、社會沒有共識。我舉在第9屆時，我就跟我們現在的國防部長顧立雄，當初他擔任立法委員的時候，我們就有共提過版本。而這一次通過的版本，我相信社會大眾的眼睛都很雪亮，在程序上，當然就不用講了，有很大的問題，充滿著重大瑕疵；在這個內容裡面，我相信從行政院所提出的覆議理由也感受到了，這違反了整個權力分立，確實你去翻閱整本憲法，你找不到、不是很難看到──總統對立法院負責這樣的條文。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][1] |
剛剛院長被葉元之拐走了，你知不知道？葉元之葉委員，書讀得不通啦！我為什麼這樣講呢？他舉的叫作法國啊！他講的是第五共和，他沒有再往前去看第三共和、第四共和，其實就是在講內閣制。過去人類還沒進步的時候，哪有什麼叫憲政體制，接下來皇權時代，更別想有什麼憲政體制，是皇帝去迫害到人民、迫害貴族以後，老百姓起來反抗，然後就要求君主立憲，甚至到最後頒布憲法啦！過去在我們憲法的規定裡面，我相信院長你很清楚國會席次，你在擔任立委的時候有幾席？225席。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
莊委員瑞雄：到了2004年第7次修憲的時候，從225席砍到113席。院長，誠實地講，你還記得是什麼原因嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
卓院長榮泰：希望國會能更有效率。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
莊委員瑞雄：沒有啦！你亂說，不是這樣，你不好意思說。這個叫形象太差，立法院牛鬼蛇神一大堆，才被社會憤怒啦！把我們砍成一半啦！院長，你光是一直笑，我怎麼會不知道。本來憲法第五十七條的規定，確實是國會至上喔！憲法第五十七條的規定，本來是立法院對於行政院重大政策有意見的時候，我們都可以移請你們來做變更，後來修憲砍掉了，停止適用了，因為總統選出來了；不然，我從小時候看到立法委員在質詢，每一個人站在這個地方都跟你說我代表民意，「你碗糕啦！」代表民意！這次民意就是反撲了，這次民意就反撲了，但是我要請教院長的就是說，接下來立法院很有可能在野黨這樣聯手國會的多數，會通過很多可怕的法案，院長，你可能會創下有史以來提覆議最多的一個院長，你怎樣看待立法跟行政兩院這樣的對立，你有沒有什麼仙丹？我問你啊。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
卓院長榮泰：最重要的還是希望在大院裡面的討論能夠真的透過民主程序，大家好好地討論，很嚴謹地來審視所有的法案，這樣的話，出來的法案，大家依法行政，心裡都沒有任何的壓力，人民也會接受，這樣國家才能往前走。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
莊委員瑞雄：院長，你說的這個沒效，怎麼說沒效你知不知道？今天在覆議案我們才在逐條。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
卓院長榮泰：所以應該要透過民主程序好好地討論…… |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
莊委員瑞雄：覆議案啊！部長，不是嗎？我在司法及法制委員會，我很清楚啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：還是要逐條來討論。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
莊委員瑞雄：沒有一條逐條過啊！就只有大體討論，大體討論時我就提出來了，我說開什麼玩笑啊！本來按照在野黨的提案，藐視國會的部分，人民是處3年以下有期徒刑，官員是1年，還記得吧？那是我說的，他們是瘋了嗎？什麼老百姓把你選出來，你罰老百姓3年，要給他處罰3年，官員變1年，那邏輯在什麼地方？青鳥來了、抗議了、有壓力了，那一條趕快拿掉，人民的憤怒是有用的啦！但是我必須要請教的就是說，部長，你是檢察官出身的，叫證人來，不管是民事、不管是刑事，傳證人來，好啦，你傳我去，我不去，你了不起命拘提嘛！對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：合法傳喚的拘提。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
莊委員瑞雄：你傳我去我就不去，你就把我拘提去了，我到了法庭上，我還是拒絕證言，可以吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：可以，看有沒有拒絕證言的法律規定…… |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
莊委員瑞雄：是啊！然後處罰是多少？ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：罰鍰…… |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
莊委員瑞雄：3萬，立法院說變多少？10萬，那就怪了，這個邏輯我到現在都想不通，法院罰人民3萬，我們立法院叫來，你給我裝傻，10萬，這哪通？如果你找我去傳喚證人，我給你虛偽陳述、我給你亂講一通、我給你講顛倒，你要處罰我對不對？到時候我的律師提出來跟你講，你忘記具結，無效。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：那個拒絕的話就不成立偽證罪。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
莊委員瑞雄：是啊！我們立法院這個完全都不用具結，這就怪，所以這個過程裡面，在司法及法制委員會連一條都沒有逐條，到了朝野協商，我們韓院長在主持的時候，4條，所以這是萬惡的罪魁，韓國瑜院長逃不了責任，這樣哪對啊？「食緊挵破碗」。所以我這個地方非常誠懇地要來請教院長，明天這覆議案很有可能輸、不會過，你知不知道？你們準備釋憲了沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
卓院長榮泰：今天繼續努力，明天如果覆議案結果出來之後，有必要尋求憲法上另外途徑的救濟，我們會再經過思考。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
莊委員瑞雄：這個條文的設計，草率啦！我看到在野黨的朋友一直在講說，我們整個調查權的行使，就跟人家德國的調查委員會法很類似。是啊！但是人家調查委員會法裡面對證人的整個裡面的規定有整本、整套，我們現在是把辛辛苦苦來協助國會調查的人，我們現在認為說武器好用，弄了一大堆處罰的規定，這個對於人權的保障太過於草率了。剛剛葉元之還有講，你知不知道我們中華民國什麼體制？我們真的是亂七八糟體制，我也不知道，我也算熟讀憲法，院長，如果是內閣制，你根本就沒有機會當院長啊，不是這樣講嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
莊委員瑞雄：今天如果是內閣制，今天就應該你們國民黨跟民眾黨推一個來當行政院院長，現在就是不是內閣制，才卓榮泰院長來當行政院長，不需要國會的同意嘛！那好啦，總統也選出來啦！總統當然具備民意，但是我們看到這麼多的條文設計裡面荒腔走板，昨天傅崐萁還特別講，第四十六條之二我們全部是照民主進步黨的條文通過的，是啊！他的再修正案通過以後還講是三黨共識，你看到鬼啊？在偵查跟審判裁判確定前，確實不能侵害司法權，這一條就用我們的條文，可是接下來的第四十七條，部長要怎麼辦？他跟你說可以調副本，這個條文通過以後，法務部怎麼辦？你怎麼辦？你給還是不給？你給副本還是不給副本？ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：就只好配合辦理。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
莊委員瑞雄：你說什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這個法律如果三讀通過，總統公布的話，這就是有效法律文，只好依法律來處理了。但這是很不合理的一個規定，而且這不是只有對公務員，這個還對民眾、社會人士，不提供的話還有處罰規定，我想國會改革法案就處罰人民這部分是我們感覺比較遺憾的。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
卓院長榮泰：這個就侵犯司法權了。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
莊委員瑞雄：是，所以你看，覆議案大家開始在逐條，笑死人了！我不知道院長跟部長你們有沒有看過一部電影「讓子彈飛」，裡面提到「他要是體面，你就讓他體面，他要是不體面，你就幫他體面。」委員三分之一連署就可以了，既然這麼討厭你，你給他建議，等一下國民黨上來，你給他建議啦！倒閣，就這麼簡單，可以這樣講、可以解決啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
卓院長榮泰：很好，謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
主席：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
莊委員瑞雄：倒閣沒有過之後，你就坐在那邊一年，這樣多好，可以穩定、可以幫國人擘劃整個國家的施政，這一帖就是我剛剛跟你說的有效仙丹，大膽地告訴他，就攤開來，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
莊委員瑞雄：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
主席：謝謝莊委員，謝謝卓院長。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][1] |
下一位我們請林德福委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
372 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
全院委員會-11-1-1 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
韓國瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
江啟臣 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
陳昭姿 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
王定宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
徐巧芯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
賴惠員 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
葉元之 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
莊瑞雄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
林德福 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
黃捷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
王育敏 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
郭國文 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
柯志恩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
李坤城 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
李彥秀 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
蘇巧慧 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
黃健豪 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
吳沛憶 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
王世堅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
吳宗憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
沈伯洋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
301 |
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2024-06-20 |
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立法院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
審查「立法院職權行使法」修正部分條文、「中華民國刑法」增訂第五章之一章名及第一百四十
一條之一條文等覆議案 |
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謝謝主席。有請我們行政院卓榮台院長。請卓院長備詢。請我們法務部啊。請法務部長備詢。院長好。莊委員好。我想今天這個整個覆議案在立法院將在整部法律審完以後進入這樣的一個程序我個人有很大的一個感慨 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
35.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
63.968 |
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那這一次整個國會職權的一個行使法就是國會改革的一個法案衍生到最後民眾認為這是一個國會擴權的一個法案為什麼說覺得很感慨呢民主進步黨不管是在野或者是我們執政其實國會改革民主進步黨都有提出方案我們在野的時候我們也提出我們執政了以後我們在國會多數我們也提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
65.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
87.686 |
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為什麼到最後都沒有繼續審議下去了?國會沒有共識社會沒有共識我舉我們在第九 第十屆第九屆我就跟我們現在的國安部長我們的顧立雄當初他在立法委員的時候我們就共提過版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
88.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
115.917 |
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那這一次通過的一個版本我相信社會大眾眼睛都很血亮程序上那當然就不用講了有很大的一個問題充滿了重大的一個瑕疵在這個內容裡面我相信從行政院所提出的這些覆議理由裡面也去感受到了這違反了整個權力的一個分立確實你去從整本憲法你去把它翻了你很難去看到說你找不到不是很難看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
116.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
119.921 |
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總統對立法院職來負責這樣的一個條文在啊剛剛院長你去給岳元智去給他掛的你知道嗎岳元智 岳委員 要切糖沒通啦糖沒通啦我為什麼這樣講呢他舉的叫做法國啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
132.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
161.326 |
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他講的是第五共和啊他沒有再往前去看他的第三共和第四共和其實講的就是在講內閣制過去啊人類啊還沒進步的時候哪有什麼叫憲政體制那接下來呢皇權時代那你更別想有什麼憲政體制啊這皇帝去破壞到人民破壞到貴族以後還有老百姓起來反抗然後就要求君主立憲甚至到最後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
162.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
182.645 |
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這個頒布憲法了,那過去在我們憲法的規定裡面我們國會的席次,我相信院長你很清楚嘛,你在做的時候幾席?275席吧?到了2004年第七次修憲的時候,從222席砍到113席,院長你誠實的講啦,三百萬年你還記不記得? |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
189.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
197.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
本來憲法五十七條的規定確實是國會至上喔!憲法五十七條的規定本來是講說我們立法院對於行政院的重大政策有意見的時候我們都可以邀請你們來做變更喔! |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
219.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
235.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我來修正砍掉了停止適用了因為總統選出來了不然我從小時候在看到立法委員在質詢每一個人站在這個地方都跟你說我代表民意你挖坑了代表民意這次民意就反撲了 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
237.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
260.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這次民意就反撲了但是我要請教院長的就是說接下來立法院很有可能在野黨這樣聯手國會的多數會通過很多可判的法案院長你可能會創下有史以來提附議最多的一個院長你怎樣看待立法跟行政兩院這樣的一個對立你有什麼選擇嗎?我問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
263.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
290.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
最重要的還是希望在大院裡面的討論能夠真的透過民主程序大家好好的討論很嚴謹的來審視所有的法案這樣的話出來的法案大家依法行政都心裡都沒有任何的壓力人民也會接受這樣國家才能往前走今天在覆議案我們才在主條所以應該要透過民主程序好好的討論覆議案不等不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
291.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
314.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我在司法法制委員會我很清楚啊這是要主條來討論沒有一條主條過啊就只有大體討論啊大體討論我就提出來了我說開什麼玩笑啊本來按照在野黨的提案裡面啊藐視國會的部分啊人民是處三年以下有嫉妒刑官員是一年嗎?還記得吧?那是我講的 他們是笑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
318.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
319.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
請教的就是說部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
339.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
359.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
你若說你這感覺我出現的,叫政人來,不管是民事、不管是刑事,傳政人來,好啦你傳我去啊,我不要去啊,你了不起命狙題嘛,對不對?合法傳票狙題。你傳我去我就不去,你就把我狙題去了。我到了法庭上,我還是拒絕證言。 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
363.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
384.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
可以吧?可以。我們來看有沒有拒絕政員的這些法律的部分。是啊。然後處罰是多少?罰款的。三萬。立法院說變多少?那十萬啦!那很怪啦!這個邏輯我到現在都想不通。法院罰人民,三萬。我們立法院叫來,你給我介紹,十萬。這哪通啊?如果你找我去傳喚證人, |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
392.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
395.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我虛偽跟你陳述我跟你亂講一通跟你講顛倒你要處罰我對不對我到時候我的律師提出來跟你講你忘記拒絕無效 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
406.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
407.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以我這個地方非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
434.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
442.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
今天繼續努力明天如果覆議案結果出來之後有必要尋求憲法上另外途徑的救濟我們會再經過思考這個條文的設計草率 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
460.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
489.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我看到在黨的朋友一直在講說還要我們的我們這個整個調查權的行使啊就跟人家德國的調查委員會法就很類似的是啊但是人家整本啊調查委員會法裡面對證人的一個整個裡面的一個規定啊規本規特那我們現在是把辛辛苦苦來協助國會調查的人來協助的人我們現在認為說武器好用了弄了一大堆處罰的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
490.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
510.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這個對於人權的保障,這個太過於草率了。剛剛岳元智還要講,你說你覺得我們中華民國什麼體制,我們這些亂七八糟的體制,我也不知道。我也算熟讀憲法,一定有,如果內閣制,你根本就沒有機會當院長啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
512.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
536.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
今天如果內閣制今天就應該你國民黨跟民眾黨你們就推一個來當行政院院長現在就是不是內閣制在卓榮泰院長來當行政院長不需要國會的一個同意嘛 對不對那好啦 總統也選出來了那總統當然他具備有名義啊但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
537.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
555.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我們看到這麼多的條文的一個設計裡面,荒腔走板。昨天副分局也特別講,說那個四十六條之後,我們就全部照你民主進步黨的條文通過的。是啊,他的再修正案通過了以後,他還講說三黨共識,一看就跪了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
560.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
580.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
在偵查跟審判裁判確定前確實不能去侵害司法權這一條就用我們的條文啦可是接下來四十七條布丁你要怎麼辦?他該說可以調副本這個條文通過以後你法務部你怎麼辦?你怎麼辦?你給還是不給?你給副本還是不給副本?就只好配合辦理你說呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
583.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
583.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
所以喔 你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
607.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
607.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
636.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
644.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
謝謝莊委員、謝謝卓院長下一位我們請林德福委員質詢 |