| IVOD_ID |
154074 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154074 |
| 日期 |
2024-06-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-1-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期第18次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
18 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-06-18T11:34:16+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-06-18T12:04:55+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:30:39 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/237480b52e5f529a5f283f6c67b2e0e584a337f76c37b5ea7057cd429a8f12ad59d8f2b9dd4f3d665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳雪生 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:34:16 - 12:04:55 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-06-18T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。
二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。
三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。） |
| gazette.lineno |
597 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
陳委員雪生：（11時34分）謝謝主席，請行政院卓院長。 |
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主席：卓院長請備詢。 |
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卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。 |
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陳委員雪生：卓院長早，首先恭喜您榮任行政院長，非常高興。 |
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卓院長榮泰：不敢，謝謝。 |
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陳委員雪生：今天主要大概有三個單元向你請教，第一個最重要就是馬祖大橋；第二個是靶場，第三個是土地的轉型正義。提到馬祖大橋之前，先跟院長說明一下，馬祖小小的地方原來有兩座機場，這兩座機場都是軍用機場轉型的，南竿機場原來是運輸機空投物品用的，大概有1,500公尺，它在山頂上、三面環海；第二座機場在北竿，北竿機場跑道有1,150公尺，跑道非常短，所以它限載量72人只能坐50個人左右，因為要視貨物的重量來決定。 |
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北竿機場成立以後，飛機失事兩次，包括我親弟弟在內，一家5個人全部罹難，所以我在擔任立法委員時就極力推動飛安的問題，也就是希望馬祖兩座機場能夠有一座標準的機場，這兩座機場都是非常不安全的機場，人家說不丹的機場是全世界最危險的，但我覺得我們馬祖兩座機場是不合格的機場，所以才有3C機場、合格機場的倡議，飛行員飛馬祖，都要兩位正駕駛才能夠飛；在蘇院長的時候已經提出來了，提出來以後，蘇院長也同意，後來再到陳建仁院長，最後北竿機場的207億也在陳院長任內已經核定，它需要的工期為7年3個月。 |
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問題來了，在上次選舉期間一直針對先蓋機場還是先做大橋有所討論，所以執政黨候選人不停的提出質疑，但本席對這個問題非常困擾，為什麼呢？因為我提出來的，本來就是要先做馬祖大橋，這跟蘇院長也好、陳建仁院長也好，我們的意見是一致的，問題這主控權不在我啊！也不在縣政府。機場的興建主要是民航局主政，大橋的興建是交通部公路局主政，所以不在縣政府。民眾提出來，興建北竿機場需要7年3個月，他們在這個空窗期要坐船到南竿去坐飛機，他們對機位、在地人口就業等等問題都提出了質疑，所以縣長跟我也極力的對當地民眾進行安撫，當然一定會有配套的措施。執政黨候選人也質疑我，究竟是先做機場，還是先做大橋？我的立場當然是先做大橋啊！因為大橋完成以後可以把兩岸，也就是南竿跟北竿的民眾能夠疏運，當然不只是民眾的疏運，包含軍事各方面的配電、水、電、醫療、警政全部都結合在一起，所以我希望先做馬祖大橋，但是這個馬祖大橋…… |
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好，現在我跟院長報告，馬祖大橋從106年開始推動，我想跟院長報告的是，雪生從第三屆國大代表，經歷了兩屆的縣長，再經歷了4屆的立委，一共26年執政的時間，對馬祖最熟悉、對馬祖有宏觀遠見的應該是我本人，所以我覺得這個基礎建設對馬祖來講是非常非常的重要，在此特別跟院長提出報告。針對馬祖大橋，從106年開始，我們希望加入前瞻建設計畫，當時任院長的賴清德總統也同意連江縣南北竿跨海大橋可行性評估還有綜合計畫，由全國最有名也是公信力最好的世曦工程規劃公司承包，經過兩年的鑽探、可行性評估等等，所有手續全部完備，到110年就開始報院，由交通部開始報院，縣政府開始報交通部，到了110年第三次報院，111年行政院秘書長函復表示再檢討本案，就經費的部分，就工法的部分，也就是工法上有沒有困難的部分，希望可以提出來，所以就是一直在裡面打太極拳、轉來轉去、上上下下大概有3年的時間，最後國發會龔主委把它送到英商奧雅納工程顧問公司，因為他們得標了，由他們再去評估並做第三方的公證，但是據我的瞭解，這個公司大概只有用500萬就得標，500萬怎麼樣去對海底做鑽探？這是不可能的事情啊！所以他們回頭又來問世曦的施董這裡面的問題在哪裡？施董說：沒有問題。既然在工程上、技術上沒有問題的話，我又去找了金門的王董，金門大橋的承商王董，我問他多少錢能標，他說300億一定能得標，當然今天核定的可行性評估是288億，他說300億一定可以，就我的評估，因為最近工程上常常講到缺工等等的問題，所以350億應該沒問題，我們的評估是分10年進行，因為工期要10年，由我們公路總局分10年，一年大概不過35億，政府非常重視偏鄉離島，是不是請院長幫忙，能夠早日核定？這個大橋的案子若能早一日核定，因為機場的部分已經核定了，我希望順序上能夠做一點調整，先做這個大橋，大橋做好以後，北竿、南竿的民眾就可以互通，互通以後就開始做北竿機場的建設，北竿機場的建設完成了，我們南竿機場就把它廢掉或是做其他的用途，因為它的面積滿大的，這樣子的話，可以給馬祖未來的子孫留下一條非常好的後路，這是最重要的基礎建設，希望我們院長能夠育成。 |
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我想縣長是我的好朋友，今天當然你當院長我也非常高興，在民間的時候，我們也相處地非常融合，這個大橋主要長度大概3.1公里，它講工期是8年，但是我評估要10年左右。賴總統在當行政院長的時候曾去過馬祖，他也做了很多的承諾，他說經費不是問題，就是當院長時曾經講過的話；然後擔任副總統候選人到馬祖去的時候，也曾經提示過，攸關馬祖未來百年發展大計的橋，是馬祖人應得的，大橋案在自己的手中推動，一定會全力的促成。我想他在擔任院長時講的話，在擔任副總統時講的話，我想他依稀還記得。 |
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卓院長到馬祖去的時候，我也當面跟卓院長報告這個案子，我想卓院長也非常認真、努力，也希望能夠促成、實踐。現在我請卓院長觀賞一段影片，這段影片是關於我們這個橋如果做成了，大概會是什麼樣的一個地貌。 |
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（播放影片） |
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陳委員雪生：謝謝院長。澎湖有澎湖到西嶼的大橋，金門有大金門到小金門的大橋，前天我又從金門大橋走了一遍。在我們偏鄉離島，大金門連接小金門，金門的土地馬上就漲了；馬祖南竿是我們政經中心，現在土地已經飽和了，蓋旅館蓋不下去了。現在不是一位難求，到馬祖看藍眼淚時已經不是一位難求，而是住屋難求！想租個房間很困難！所以已經發展到極限了，需要北竿的土地來做三星級旅館。我想澎湖大橋也好，金門大橋也好，為了我們馬祖未來長遠的計畫著想，我希望把橋連貫起來，把北竿土地做最有效的開發。蘇院長曾經講過一句話，蘇前院長講說：我們要做，就要做得比金門更好！所以東丕的王董要去邀標，否則不管288億、300億，甚至是400億，只要沒有人來標問題就出來了！現在至少有一家了，是不是？所以我非常放心。至於工程技術上的問題，英商大概9月份資料就會回來，我評估英商只有500萬得標，因為裡面有很多的機具要測試海底、海床、海流、水流等等東西，這都要從世曦來。世曦是國內頂尖的顧問設計公司，施董也不停的跟我講：絕對沒有問題，絕對沒有問題！經費方面，我想350億左右，我們從288億給他漲到350億好了，王董說只要300億他就來做。院長，我們也是好朋友，你現在也是老長官，所以我想聽聽您對這個大橋的看法？ |
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卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。首先對委員令弟跟家屬遭遇空安問題表示非常遺憾！但也因為這樣子，知道委員長期關心飛安問題，所以委員對北竿機場、南竿機場的關心，我們都非常清楚。現在北竿機場已經要進行整建改善，照委員所說要7年3個月，將近8年時間來整建改善北竿機場。至於馬祖大橋，從一開始大家到現場看，經過工程單位、顧問單位去看，結果確實存在很多工程技術上的複雜，以及對海事工程的重大挑戰，所以目前都還在很慎重的評估當中。當然，過去我們到現場去看，都認為有橋連接可以讓南北竿居民有便利性，但因為現在北竿機場在興建，至於南竿機場，由於離島有兩個機場是很少見、很特殊的，所以南竿機場將來要做怎麼樣的營運管理或做怎麼樣的規劃，其實跟馬祖大橋、北竿機場都有相關的連動性。所以我們現在在重新評估，到底南竿機場未來的走向如何，它跟馬祖大橋的興建，在交通上的需求以及互相支援的過程有沒有，這個部分交通部已經有一個想法或是初步的規劃，但這個都還是初步的。 |
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陳委員雪生：院長，現在問題在於我們的機場已經核定了，建設計畫大概需要2年到3年時間，我也拜託院長，是不是在最近等英商的評估回來後，第三方的公正報告出來之後，能夠趕快把馬祖大橋核定？我也希望在順序上是馬祖大橋先建，建得差不多的時候，我們再來啟動北竿機場的興建計畫，這樣也沒有政治上問題出現。因為民眾覺得恐慌，為什麼？他要到南竿來坐船，8年的時間耶，不是短短的3年或2年，他可以忍耐，所以這一點我想請院長幫忙，好不好？ |
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卓院長榮泰：好，我們請…… |
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陳委員雪生：因為時間的關係…… |
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卓院長榮泰：是不是請部長簡單…… |
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陳委員雪生：沒關係，我跟部長在交通委員會還可以再探討，好不好？因為時間的關係。 |
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卓院長榮泰：好。 |
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陳委員雪生：下一個議題是北竿塘岐靶場，這牽涉扯到國防部，有關這個靶場，我跟院長報告，它在我們的蛋黃區，這個蛋黃區周邊是國中、國小、衛生所、鄉公所、運動中心，運動場也在那裡，靶場就在正中央，這個靶場你看能不能夠存在？就您的眼光去看，以我這樣的敘述，這個靶場就在這些建物的中間，你看行不行？你看？ |
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卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，這個靶場我沒有進去過，但周遭我曾經經過，塘歧這個地方我有經過，這是非常漂亮的馬祖的地方，但靶場的存在對當地的國軍是有必要性、使用上的問題，有沒有做進一步的規劃，我請國防部來做說明。 |
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陳委員雪生：好，請顧部長回答。 |
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顧部長立雄：因為它是北竿地區唯一完整的輕重兵器實彈射擊訓練靶場，如果要把它拿掉的話，我們要求一定是要有另外一個新的靶場讓我們使用，所以現在是在風山地區有找到一個適合靶場的預定地，我想委員應該很清楚，但是這個靶場在召開說明會的時候好像也有部分不同的意見，所以我們是秉持代拆代建、先建後拆，也就是說，我們一定要有一個靶場蓋好了以後，才能夠把既有的靶場…… |
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陳委員雪生：部長，您知道這個方案要多少錢嗎？代拆代建要多少錢，您知道嗎？ |
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顧部長立雄：代拆代建，我們現在的評估好像是有兩塊地，有A、B兩塊地，有一塊地是4億多元…… |
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陳委員雪生：好，我告訴你，第一個方案是5億，第二個方案是10億。現在的靶場就是一個靶溝，貼幾張紙，阿兵哥在距離100公尺、200公尺的地方放個沙包，槍架在上面，砰砰砰砰砰，打共匪打不死，打我們自己的靶兵一槍就命中了，準得很，正中腦袋。這樣一個破破爛爛的靶場，你要縣政府代拆代建，而且還要先建後拆，這怎麼可能！我已經提了8年了，歷任國防部長我都提了，院長，您看看，這個東西值得5億或是10億嗎？現在有個臺灣地區地方政府舉辦公共工程拆遷國軍營區設施處理原則，這個原則要改，這個原則不改，國防部鐵板一塊，一定要代拆代建。 |
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曾經在邱部長的任內，我告訴他，我們的國中蓋好了，醫院蓋好了，運動中心蓋好了，我不讓他們在靶場裡打任何一發子彈，打了的話，我把民眾排在那邊睡覺，躺在馬路上！我們國防安全及國軍的訓練是非常重要的，我已經講了8年了，你們都不動，這裡不是臺南的砲兵學校耶，臺南的砲兵學校可以蓋5個現代化的靶場，部長，您可能不知道吧，院長，你說說看，這個靶場擺在這裡一定不可以嘛，怎麼可以呢，一定要遷走嘛，不然…… |
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卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們當然會關心…… |
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陳委員雪生：你現在先建後拆，然後來個代拆代建，叫縣政府哪裡來的錢？ |
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卓院長榮泰：我們當然會關心居民生活的安寧跟學生的安全，這個一定要關心的…… |
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陳委員雪生：當然！不要講居民…… |
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卓院長榮泰：你說8年到現在，至少國防部的進度，就我所了解，它已經提出二、三個場地在做選擇，他們選擇的其中一件就是風山地區，現在是經費問題還在做一些評估，跟縣政府做一些討論…… |
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陳委員雪生：這個要請主計總處另外撥款啦，按照這個原則，這個原則不改，靶場就不拆，他們就不走，不走的話一定會跟居民發生衝突嘛！馬祖是軍民感情最融合的地方耶，水乳交融耶，你看金門那邊還有老百姓跑到軍營裡面打阿兵哥，馬祖有這樣的事嗎？沒有耶！ |
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卓院長榮泰：這個我要請部長多跟委員溝通、協調一下，地方上居民的問題也請您幫我們理解，看能夠怎麼樣去跟居民做溝通，但是本案除了場地目前已經擇定之外，它的進度跟預算，工程的預算，我們還是可以進一步來做協商。 |
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陳委員雪生：院長，它第一個方案要5億，第二個方案要10億…… |
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卓院長榮泰：是、是，我知道。 |
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陳委員雪生：那個靶場值5億嗎？我看5,000萬都不值得啊！你要我代拆代建，不是笑死人了？全場所有的首長來評評理嘛！第一個，你要不要搬走？你們評評理。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
卓院長榮泰：如果是一個新的靶場，應該會有比較好的設備，而不是拆了之後就隨便找個地方，不是這樣的。 |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
陳委員雪生：那個地啊，還有老百姓的地在裡面耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
卓院長榮泰：所以要再進一步的溝通啊，做更多的協調。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
陳委員雪生：所以這個我想請院長重視一下，好不好？我每次提，每次都不理我，上次總質詢也提了啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
卓院長榮泰：現在我們已經有進度了，跟委員報告，至少有一個地點，我們就在做努力。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
陳委員雪生：蘇院長那時候的總質詢我也提了，陳建仁院長的時候我也提了，國防部就不理啊，就以這個理由、這個原則說是準此原則辦理，地方指揮官也是這樣，他也沒辦法，所以這個拜託一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
卓院長榮泰：好，請國防部多跟委員溝通。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
陳委員雪生：部長，您回去研究一下，我覺得如果有困難，你要跨部會的請行政院主計總處或財政部要專案撥款給你來處理這個事情，而不是一個代拆代建、先建後拆，你丟給縣政府，縣政府丟到哪裡去？丟到我這裡啊，我再丟給你，就丟來丟去啊，到最後居民抗爭嘛，一定是這樣嘛，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
卓院長榮泰：請委員多多幫忙，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
陳委員雪生：因為時間關係，我們就不談了。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][1] |
第三個問題是土地的公平正義，報告院長，你知道阿兵哥跟國有財產局在馬祖占領我們多少土地，你知道嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我知道這個現在…… |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
陳委員雪生：您不知道，我來跟你報告。 |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
卓院長榮泰：在馬祖地區的公有土地比例是比較高。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
陳委員雪生：80%都是他們的啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
卓院長榮泰：比例是比較高，我知道。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
陳委員雪生：我們縣政府、老百姓只有百分之十幾，還有未登錄的土地，國產署動不動就告我們老百姓，我們還想告它咧！我們還想告國產署耶，你是強盜啊？是土匪還是強盜？比共產黨還壞啊！可以這樣嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
卓院長榮泰：不會、不會。 |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
陳委員雪生：我們都口不出惡言，我都不想去講這個話，財政部可以這樣搞嗎？上次已經質詢過一次，部長你也上台了，我有請你回答嘛，你們回去以後，我最近的了解是只有2個案了，現在國產署告老百姓的只剩下2個案，我說那很好，我感到非常窩心，什麼事情你知道嗎？一共二十幾個案，有20個案判老百姓輸，全部都是輸，沒有一個贏的，我真的想跳樓啊，我氣死了，你不知道，我氣得想跳樓啊！你們國產署哪裡來的地嘛？阿兵哥哪裡來的地嘛？我爸爸也是軍人啊，到那邊也是強占民地來住的啊，我是這樣生出來的耶，我是在老百姓的房子生出來的，我自己本人啊！你們阿兵哥哪裡來的地？現在因為預官懂得寫字，80年以前是實施戰地任務，80年以後，馬祖哪有什麼地政事務所，陳雪生是下雪的時候生的，陳耳聾是耳朵聾了，陳瞎眼是眼睛瞎了，名字是這麼來的啊！是不是？那你們現在這樣登記，一個是62年的問題嘛，62年才成立地政局，才給馬祖老百姓登記土地，你現在要他舉證，82年要舉證，老頭子已經走光了，怎麼舉證嘛！你說怎麼舉證？法院就這麼判，還教國產署說你們不告就瀆職喔，還叫你們去告，這什麼法官啊？我以前相信司法獨立，我現在不相信了，司法獨什麼立啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我想有關馬祖地區要申請返還土地的部分，其實國產署也都是從寬處理，所以整個來說，返還的國有土地已經超過四千多筆，只是說有一些因為有很明確的瞭解是政府曾經有償，也就是有付對價的，不管是徵收也好，或是價購也好，或者民眾占用有中斷時效的部分，才會就相關的案件提起異議，目前來說，案件算是非常少的…… |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
陳委員雪生：部長，我跟你報告，你說的話我一句都聽不下去，你要以行動來表示，國產署實在是窮凶惡極啊。 |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
莊部長翠雲：不會啦。 |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
陳委員雪生：實在窮凶惡極，我跟你講。你們是管理機關，軍備局只是使用機關，回去跟你們國產署署長好好討論一下，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
莊部長翠雲：是，會請署長好好處理。 |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
陳委員雪生：要有慈悲的心，這個地是你們的嗎？你們自己摸摸良心，對得起自己嗎？對得起自己嗎？你們要摸摸良心，好不好？請你回去。 |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們是一個法治的社會，部長剛剛所說的，國產署一定是基於我們曾經有償的購買，或是有提出…… |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
陳委員雪生：院長，我們老百姓沒唸書欸…… |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
卓院長榮泰：申請人在這一段時間沒有完整的…… |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
陳委員雪生：你法治的社會，你都只講法條…… |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
卓院長榮泰：才會去提出異議，否則我們都是依照馬祖地區土地申請返還實施辦法來依法做處理。 |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
陳委員雪生：好，因為時間的關係，好不好？部長你請回，我想請衛福部部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[60][1] |
跟院長報告，我們最近從馬祖緊急醫療後送過來的民眾都會做斷層掃描，馬祖不是部立醫院，在選舉的時候，曾經有人講馬祖要成立部立醫院，馬祖有馬祖的特殊環境。好，我們現在的斷層掃描用了幾年，院長知道嗎？這是全世界、全中華民國最舊的一部電腦斷層，20年了，斷層照完以後拿到臺灣來，到醫院去，看不清楚再重照一次。輻射對人體的傷害，我們還不談，從搶救生命的角度來看，這是浪費時間嘛！是不是？所以，院長，我拜託，今天部長也在，送我們一臺斷層掃描，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
卓院長榮泰：部長研究看看，怎麼樣提高馬祖地區的醫療水準跟服務。 |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
陳委員雪生：我們會做成使用計畫報到衛福部來，是不是請部長幫個忙？ |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
邱部長泰源：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
陳委員雪生：送我們一臺斷層掃描，不要在那邊照完以後，送到這邊來上傳，傳了以後模模糊糊看不清楚，還要再照一次。 |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想我跟馬祖那邊的醫界都是好朋友，我再來跟他們討論，了解現在的情況是怎麼樣，一定要讓馬祖的民眾得到相當好的一個儀器來檢查跟治療。 |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
陳委員雪生：好，我想謝謝部長，你請回。院長，還有一個是高雄飛馬祖的航線，我還要請你幫忙。 |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
卓院長榮泰：高雄飛馬祖。 |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
陳委員雪生：馬祖有兩座機場，那麼從臺灣到馬祖，這是你們交通部的事嘛，是行政院的事嘛，難道要老百姓去買飛機，或是縣政府買飛機來運載客人嗎？不可能嘛！所以你們有提供行的便利的責任嘛，是不是？所以最近開了很多的會，我也要求交通部，拜託他們，新的部長也非常的謙虛，非常的客氣，我拜託他們找民航局等單位，看看怎麼做嘛。你用包機，它一趟來回要72萬，72萬等於一張票是多少呢？要5,000塊。票價5,000塊觀光客怎麼肯來，是不是？觀光客一直講說希望弄高雄飛馬祖的航線，一直地提，我想請院長或是部長，你回答我一下，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我知道馬祖的航班一向都是一票難求的機會，因為時間相當長，而且受到天候的影響，所以相當不穩定，那是不是交通部跟航空業者能夠來進一步的協調看看怎麼樣提高馬祖的運量？ |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
陳委員雪生：部長，好不好？我也曾經在交通委員會質詢過你。 |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
李部長孟諺：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
陳委員雪生：就是希望部長可以在一個月內認真一點督促民航局促成這件事情，這樣對觀光也好，像我們那邊的阿兵哥有一半的人是住在高雄、中南部，阿兵哥不停地在叫，觀光客也不停地在叫，我們的鄉親也想要去高雄玩、去佛光山等地，可是都沒有飛機可以搭。部長，好不好？請你回答我。 |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
李部長孟諺：現在有請林國顯次長找民航局還有觀光署談，大家在找一個最佳的方案。 |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
陳委員雪生：是的，謝謝部長。院長，您也可以協助嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們一定請交通部盡力來促成提高馬祖航空運量的這件事情。 |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
陳委員雪生：好，因為時間的關係，那就謝謝院長、部長，你們辛苦了！ |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
主席：好，謝謝陳委員，謝謝卓院長。 |
| gazette.blocks[78][1] |
報告院會，上午質詢到此為止，本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案，就不進行臨時提案之處理。 |
| gazette.blocks[78][2] |
下午2時30分繼續開會進行質詢，現在休息。 |
| gazette.blocks[78][3] |
休息（12時5分） |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
200 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
院會-11-1-18 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
韓國瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
江啟臣 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
廖偉翔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
林楚茵 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
王世堅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
李彥秀 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
陳雪生 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
林岱樺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
林沛祥 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
何欣純 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
陳玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
陳菁徽 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
105 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-06-18 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1135701 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1135701_00004 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[1] |
1135701_00005 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
施政質詢
對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─ |
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今天主要大概有三個單元向您請教一個是最重要就是馬祖大橋 |
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38.257 |
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那麼第二個是靶場第三個就是土地的一個轉型正義我想提到馬祖大橋之前先跟院長說明一下馬祖原來小小的地方有兩座機場是那麼這兩座機場都是軍用機場轉型的我們的南竿機場原來是運輸機空投物品用的它大概有1500公尺 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
64.81 |
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他在山頂上那麼四面都是黃海,三面黃海第二座機場在北竿機場北竿機場跑到1150公尺跑道非常的短所以他的限載量72個人只能坐50個人左右因為要是貨物的重量來決定那麼北竿機場成立以後大概飛機試是兩次 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
94.296 |
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117.902 |
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飛機失事兩次大概我弟弟在內我親弟弟五個人一家全部罹難所以我在擔任立法委員的時候就極力推動飛安的問題也就是希望馬祖兩座機場能夠有一座標準的機場這兩座機場都是非常不安全的機場 |
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119.264 |
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134.482 |
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人家說布丹的機場是全世界最危險的但是我覺得我們馬祖兩座機場是不合格的機場所以才有這個山西機場一個合格機場的倡議飛行員飛馬祖都要兩位正駕駛才能飛那麼在蘇院長的時候 |
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138.753 |
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已經提出來了。提出來以後,孫院長也同意,後來到陳建仁院長。那麼這個機場,最後北竿機場,207億,那麼也在陳院長任內已經把它合訂了。他需要的工期需要7年3個月。那問題來了,上次在選舉期間一直針對掀蓋機場先做大橋, |
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165.199 |
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190.522 |
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所以執政黨的候選人不停提出質疑,但是本席對這個問題非常困擾。為什麼?因為我提出來的本來就是要先做馬祖大橋,這跟蘇院長也好陳建源院長也好,我們的意見是一致的。問題主控權不在我,也不在縣政府。這個機場的興建主要是民航局主政。 |
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191.547 |
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219.401 |
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大橋的興建是我們交通部的公路局主政所以不在縣政府那民眾提出來說興建北竿機場需要7年3個月那這一個空窗期他們要到南竿要坐船到南竿去坐飛機還有他們的機位還有他們在地人口的就業等等問題都提出了質疑所以縣長也跟我勒我們極力的也在 |
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220.686 |
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248.376 |
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對當地的民眾進行安撫當然一定會有配套的一個措施那麼執政黨候選人也質疑我就是說先做機場還是先做大橋那我的立場當然是先做大橋因為大橋把它完成以後然後這個可以把兩岸就是南竿跟北竿這個民眾能夠輸運當然不只是民眾的輸運這裡面軍事各方面的配電、水、電 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
252.248 |
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274.965 |
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醫療、警政全部都結合在一起所以我希望先做馬祖大橋但是這個馬祖大橋好現在我跟院長報告馬祖大橋我從106年開始推動我想跟院長報告的是雪生從第三屆國大代表然後經歷了兩屆的縣長再經歷了四屆的立委我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
279.059 |
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307.481 |
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一共26年執政的時間對馬祖最熟悉的對馬祖的宏觀、遠見應該是我本人所以我覺得這個基礎建設對馬祖來講是非常非常的重要所以在此特別跟院長提出報告那麼這個大橋106年我們希望加入前瞻建設計畫那麼時任院長的賴清德總統同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
308.294 |
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334.915 |
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也同意。那麼臨江縣的難給人看來大家可靜性評估還有綜合計畫經過我們全國最有名的也是供給力最好的四溪工程規劃公司他們承包經過兩年的鑽探可靜性評估等等所有手續全部完備全部完備那麼到了110年我們就開始抱怨了由交通部開始抱怨縣政府開始抱交通部 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
336.092 |
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365.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那麼到了110年,第三次報院,111年行政院秘書長有含複,說再檢討本案。就經費的部分,就公法的部分,也就是公法有沒有困難的部分。那麼提出來,一直在裡面打太極拳,轉來轉去,上上下下,大概有三年的時間了。 |
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366.619 |
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395.863 |
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最後國發會公主委把他送到英國英商的奧亞納工程顧問公司他們得標再去評估做地倉班的公認但是據我的了解這個公司大概只有500萬去得標500萬怎麼樣去做鑽探對海底這不可能的事情所以他們回頭又來問世襲的施董說這裡面的問題在哪裡施董說沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
397.025 |
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425.144 |
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那在工程上技術上沒有問題的話我又去找了這個金門的王董金門大橋的陳生王董我說你多少錢能飆他300億一定得飆當然今天核定的是可信性評估是288億他300億一定可以所以我評估最近公財上漲缺工等等350億應該沒問題那我們的評估也就分10年因為這供給要10年 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
425.97 |
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453.034 |
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我想由我們公路總局分十年一年大概不過35億我想政府非常重視偏鄉離島我想是不是請院長能夠幫忙找一日核定因為把大橋的案子找一日核定因為機場已經核定了我希望順序上能夠做一點調整先做大橋大橋做好以後北竿跟南竿的民眾就互通了 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
453.717 |
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465.352 |
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互動以後開始做北竿機場的建設北竿機場的建設完成了我們南竿機場把它廢掉或是做其他的用途因為它的面積蠻大的那這樣子的話讓馬祖 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
467.423 |
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496.753 |
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未來的子孫給他們留下一條非常好的後路這是最重要的基礎建設我希望我們院長能夠育成我想現在也是我的好朋友我們今天當然你當院長我非常高興在民間的時候我們也非常的相處非常的融合那麼這個長程主要大概3.1公里攻擊他講是8年但是我評估要10年10年左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
498.906 |
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527.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
賴總統在行政院長的時候到馬祖去他也做了很多的承諾他說經費不是問題賴院長曾經講了然後在副總統候選人那時候到馬祖去的時候曾經提示過攸關馬祖未來百年發展大切的橋是馬祖人應得的大橋 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
528.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
553.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
在自己的手中推動,一定會全力促成。我想賴總統在院長的時候講的話,在副總統的時候講的話,我想他一起來記得。那麼卓院長到馬祖區的時候,我也跟卓院長當面也報告這個案子。我想卓院長也非常認真努力,也希望能夠觸及實現。那現在我是不是請賴院長, |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
554.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
556.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
大橋建設,串聯南北竿,整合南北竿資源,銜接主要空運及海運場站。 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
576.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
601.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
串聯馬祖地區景點,整合舊衣、舊學、舊業資源,公職水深及初步地質調查。海域最深達60公尺,其餘水深落在30至40公尺。海床覆土深以東側較淺、西側較深,橋址大多覆土為10公尺以內。 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
602.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
630.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
復土層下方,其為堅硬岩層,東側淺,西側深。公址鄰近既有南北竿機場。受到機場未來發展的限制,橋面及附屬設施,限高為海平面上57公尺。橋樑跨越既有航道,橋下需滿足通航高度之需求。馬祖大橋,採用粵粒混凝土相形樑橋。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
634.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
653.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
畫徑約140到200公尺起點位於南竿環保路規劃設置P字路口岔出橋面設置中央格欄雙向各一快車道及一機慢車道寬一公尺人行道 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
661.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
687.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
橋下航道才雙孔單向配置,並設置導航及防撞設施。大橋向北連接北竿尼姑山西路後,進入陸域段範圍。陸域段配合地形,以陸體及橋樑形式配置。 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
693.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
715.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
總點則銜接至白沙港南碼頭。馬祖大橋建設將提供南北竿全天候、快捷、穩定、運輸的路廊、 完善馬祖地區道路交通網、串聯南北竿一日生活圈、 促進馬祖地區的觀光發展。 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
716.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
745.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
馬祖大橋優美的外形搭配在地壯闊的海景將成為馬祖最吸引人的地標。馬祖歡迎您的列寧。好,謝謝院長。澎湖有個澎湖到西宇的大橋。金門有大金門到小金門的大橋。我前天又從金門大橋又走了一遍。那麼我想我們偏鄉離島 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
747.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
776.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
大金門連接小金門金門的土地馬上就漲了我想馬祖南竿是我們政經中心那麼現在土地已經飽和了蓋旅館蓋不下去了現在不是一味難求馬祖在看藍眼淚的時候不是一味難求而是一個住屋難求你要去租一個房間很困難所以他已經發展到極限了需要北竿的土地那麼來做三星級的旅館我想從馬祖 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
777.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
804.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這個澎湖大橋也好,金門大橋也好。我在在我想我們馬祖未來長遠的計畫,我希望把這個橋連貫起來,把北竿的土地做最有效的開發。那麼蘇院長曾經講過一句話,蘇賢院長講說,我們要做,要做的比金門更好。那麼這個東坯的這個王董啊,為什麼?要去邀標啊。不要說等一下288億、300億,你講了400億, |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
806.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
834.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
沒有人來標你這個問題出來了至少起碼有一家了嘛是不是所以我覺得我非常的放心所以工程技術上的問題我想殷商大概八九月份資料就回來我評估殷商他只有五百萬得標他這裡面有很多的機具要測試海底海床等等的一些東西海流水流等等所以他都要從世襲來世襲是我們國內頂尖的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
837.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
862.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這個顧問設計公司施董也不停的跟我講,絕對沒有問題,絕對沒有問題。那麼經費我想350億左右啊,2818我們給他漲到350億好了。黃董則說只要300億他就來做。所以我想這個院長,我們也是好朋友,你現在也是老長官,所以我想聽聽您對這個大橋的看法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
864.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
888.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
謝謝委員首先對委員令地跟家屬遭遇空安的問題我們表示非常的遺憾但也因為這樣子知道委員長期關心非安的問題所以對北幹機場南幹機場委員的關心我們都非常的清楚那現在北幹機場已經要進行整件的改善照委員所說要7年3個月將近8年的時間要整件改善這個北幹機場 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
888.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
914.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那至於馬祖大橋從一開始大家到現場看經過工程單位顧問單位去看看結果他確實存在很多工程技術上的複雜以及對這種海事工程的重大的挑戰這個目前都是還在很慎重的評估當中當然過去我們到現場去看都認為有一個橋就是連接南北竿 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
915.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
915.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
﹚陳雪生﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
942.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
946.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
現在問題在我們的機場已經核定了,他大概建設計畫需要兩年到三年的時間。 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
963.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
985.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我也拜託院長是不是在最近等殷商的評估回來以後,第三方的公正報告出來以後,能夠趕快把馬祖大橋合定。我也希望在順序上馬祖大橋先建,建得差不多的時候我們再來啟動北竿機場的興建計畫。所以這樣的話也沒有政治上的問題出現。 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
986.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
1010.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
因為民眾他覺得會恐慌,為什麼他要到南竿來坐船?八年的時間不是短短的三年或者兩年,他可以忍耐,所以這一點我想請院長幫忙好不好?因為時間的關係我想,沒關係部長我在交通委員會我還可以再探討好不好?因為時間的關係。下面的問題就是北竿唐崎靶場牽涉到國防部。 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
1013.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
1041.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
這個靶場跟院長報告,它在我們的淡黃區,這個淡黃區的周邊是什麼呢?是國中、國小、衛生所、商工所、運動中心、運動場也在那裡,靶場就在正中央。這個靶場你看能不能夠存在,就您的眼光去看,我這樣跟您的敘述,這個靶場在這些東西的中間,你看行不行,你看。 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
1042.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
1045.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
國防部因為它是北甘地區唯一完整的輕重兵器的實彈設計訓練靶場所以如果說要 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
1072.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
1098.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
要把它拿掉的話,我們要求一定是要有另外一個新的靶場。那所以現在是在豐山這個地區有找到一個適合靶場的一個預定地。我想我也應該是很清楚。但是這個靶場在召開這個說明會的時候,好像也有部分不同的這個意見。所以我們是秉持待拆待建,先建後裁。就是說我們一定要有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
1103.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1122.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
部長您知道這個方案要多少錢嗎?待拆待建要多少錢?您知道嗎?待拆待建,我們現在評估好像是兩塊地,AB兩塊地,這個有一塊地是4億多。第一個方案是5億,第二個方案是10億,現在的靶場 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1124.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1145.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
就是一個把鉤,貼幾塊紙,然後阿兵哥在距離100公尺到200公尺放個沙包,槍架在上面,啪啪啪啪啪,打共匪打不死啊,打我們自己打那個把兵啊,一槍就命中了,準得狠,準得狠啊,正中央腦袋,這樣一個破破爛爛的靶場 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1146.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1174.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
你要先政府待拆待建而且還要先建後拆這怎麼可能我已經提了8年了歷任國防部長我都提了院長您看看你這個東西值得5億或是10億嗎他有一個臺灣地區地方政府舉辦公共工程拆遷國軍營區設施處理原則這個原則要改這個原則不改國防部鐵板一塊一定要待拆待建 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1175.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1203.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
我曾經在邱部長任內我告訴他我們的國中蓋好了我們的醫院蓋好了運動中心蓋好了我不讓靶場在裡面打任何一發子彈打了我把民眾排在那邊睡覺躺在馬路上我們國防安全國軍的訓練是非常重要的我已經講了八年了嘛你們都不動這裡不是台南的砲兵學校台南砲兵學校可以蓋五個現代化的靶場 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1205.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1222.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
部長,您可能不知道吧?陳院長你說說看,這個板板擺在這裡一定不可以嘛,怎麼可以勒?一定要遷走嘛,那你現在先見後差,然後來個待差待見,你叫縣政府拿你來的錢? |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1223.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1252.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我們當然會關心居民生活的安寧跟學生的安全,這個一定要關心的。那你說8年到現在至少國防部的進度我所了解他已經提出了兩三個地區在場地在做選擇,他們選擇了其中的一件就是封山地區,那現在這個經費的問題還在做一些評估。這個要請主席出另外撥款,你按照這個原則不改,這個原則不改他把場就不拆。 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1254.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1262.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
他就不走,不走的話軍民一定發生衝突嘛。馬祖是軍民感情最融合的一個地方。 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1263.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1291.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
水乳交融欸,你看金白那邊還有老闆一跑到軍營裡面打冰哥,馬祖有這樣的事嗎?沒有欸。這個我要請部長跟委員說溝通協調一下,地方上居民的問題也請你幫我們理解能夠怎麼樣去跟居民做溝通。但是這個事件,這個本案啊,除了這個場地目前已經擇定之外,它的進度跟它的預算、它的工程的預算,我們還是可以進一步來做協商。院長他第一個方案要五億。 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1291.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1319.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
第二個方案要10億,你那個靶場值5億嗎?我看值五千萬都還不值得啊。哈?你要我代菜代件,笑死人啊。全場所有的首長們來平平理理嘛。第一個你要不要搬走?你要不要平平理理?第二個。那個地啊,裡面還有老百姓的地在裡面。所以要再進一步的溝通啊。所以這個我想請院長重視一下好不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1320.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1349.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我每次提啊,每次都不理我,但是董事卿也提了。蘇院長的時候董事卿我也提了,陳建元院長的時候我也提了。那國防部都不理啊,就以這個理由,以這個原則,准此原則辦理。地方的指揮官也是這樣,他也沒辦法。所以這個拜託一下,部長,林慧欽研究一下,我覺得如果有困難啊,你要跨部會的請行政院主計處或是財政部啊,要專案撥款給你來處理這個事情。 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1350.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1356.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
第三個問題就是土地的公平正義。報告院長你知道阿兵哥跟國有產產局在馬祖佔領我們多少土地你知道嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1380.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1402.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
你不知道我來跟你報告好不好在馬祖地區的公有土地的比例是比較高百分之八十都是他們的啊我們縣政府啊老百姓只有百分之十幾還有未登陸的土地動不動啊國產署去告我們老百姓我們還想告他咧我們還想告國產署欸你是強盜啊你是土匪還強盜比共產黨還壞啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1403.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1430.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
是不是可以這樣嗎?我們都口不出惡言我都不想去講這個話了財政部你可以這樣子搞嗎?上次已經質詢過一次,部長你也上台了我有請你回答嗎?你們回去以後我最近了解只有兩個案了現在國產署告老百姓的只剩下兩個案我說那很好啊,我非常窩心什麼事你知道嗎?一共二十幾個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1431.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1457.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
有20個案判老百姓輸全部都是輸沒有一個贏的我真的想跳樓啊我氣死了你不知道我氣得想跳樓啊你們國產署哪來的地嘛你阿兵哥哪來的地嘛我爸爸也是軍人啊到那邊也是強占民地住的啊我是這麼生出來的勒我在老百姓的房子生出來的勒我自己本人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1458.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1483.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
你們阿彌陀佛哪來的地?現在因為御官懂得寫字,八十年以前是實施戰地政務,八十以後馬祖哪有什麼地政事務所?陳雪生下雪的時候生的,陳耳隆是耳朵隆了,陳瞎眼是眼睛瞎了,名字是正本來的,是不是?那你們現在這樣子登記, |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1485.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1511.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
一個是62年的問題嘛62年才成立地政局才給馬祖老百姓登記土地你現在要他說要舉證82年要舉證老頭子已經走光啦老頭子走光怎麼舉證嘛你說嘛怎麼舉證法院就這麼判還教你們國產署你們不告就瀆職喔還叫你們去告這什麼法官啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1512.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1518.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我以前相信司法獨立,我現在不相信了。我現在不相信了。司法獨什麼立啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1519.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1519.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
部長部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1549.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1576.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
部長我跟你報告,你說的話我一句都聽不下去,你要以行動來表示,國產署實在窮凶惡極,實在窮凶惡極我跟你講,你們是管理機關,軍備局只是使用機關,回去跟你們國產署署長好好討論一下好不好?要有慈悲的心,這個地是你們的嗎?你們自己摸摸良心,對得起自己嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1577.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1589.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
啊?對你洗自己嗎?你們要默默良心欸。好不好?請你回去齁,來。報告委員,我們這個法治的社會啦,國參署,部長剛剛所說的國參署一定是基於我們曾經有長的購買。 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1592.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1612.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
院長,我們老百姓沒念書欸,你法治的社會該講法條。 申請人在暫用時間沒有完整的這個時間才會去提出異議,否則我們都是在依照這個馬祖地區土地申請條例裡面來做依法的處理吧。好,因為時間的關係好不好。那部長你請回,我想請衛福部部長跟院長報告,我們最近馬祖民眾送來的都會做斷層掃描嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1620.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1647.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
緊急醫療護送馬祖不是部立醫院在選舉的時候曾經有人講說馬祖要部立醫院馬祖有馬祖特殊的一個環境好,我們現在的斷層掃描用了幾年院長知道嗎這是全世界全中華民國最舊的一部電腦斷層20年了斷層造完以後拿到台灣來,到醫院去看不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1648.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1675.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
再重蹈一次,這種輻射對人體的傷害我們還不談,浪費時間嘛,搶救生命嘛,是不是?所以院長我拜託,今天部長也在齁,送我們一台斷人掃描好不好?部長研究看看怎麼樣提高馬祖地區我們的醫療水準跟服務。我們會做成使用計畫,報到衛福部來。是不是請部長幫個忙,送我們一台斷人掃描,不要! |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1676.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1702.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
在那邊照完以後,送到這邊來上船,船裡又模模糊糊,看不清楚啊。再照一次。報告委員,我想我也會跟我們馬祖那邊的醫界都是好朋友,我再來跟他討論,說現在的情況是怎麼樣。一定要讓馬祖的民眾得到相當好的一個儀器來檢查治療。好,我想謝謝院長,謝謝部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1706.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1729.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
還有一個事,高雄飛馬祖航線,我還要請你幫忙。高雄飛馬祖?馬祖有兩座機場,那從台灣到馬祖,這是你們交通部的事嘛,是行政院的事嘛。難道要老闆去買飛機或是縣政府買飛機來運載客人嗎?不可能嘛。所以你們有刑的便利,有刑的責任吧,是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1731.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1756.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
所以最近開了很多的會,我也要求交通部,拜託他們。新的部長也非常的謙虛、非常的客氣。我拜託他們,你找民航局找這些,看看怎麼做嘛。你用包機,他一趟要72萬來回。72萬一張票等於是多少呢?要5000塊。5000塊觀光客怎麼肯來?是不是?觀光客一直講說希望弄高雄飛馬祖的航線。 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
1757.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
1780.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
一直的提,我想請院長或是部長回答我一下好不好?報告委員,我知道馬祖的航班一向都是一票難求的機會,時間相當長而且受天候的控制相當不穩定,那是不是交通部跟航空業者能夠來進一步的寫下看怎麼樣提高馬祖的運力?我想在交通委員會曾經質詢過你嘛,就希望一個月以內啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
1781.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
1803.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
部長,您認真一點督促民航局把這件事情促成,對觀光也好。我們那邊阿兵哥有一半是住在高雄中南部的。阿兵哥也不停的在叫,觀光客也不停的在叫。我們鄉親也講說要去高雄玩,去佛光山去等等。所以都沒有飛機可以搭。 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
1805.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
1806.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
謝謝陳委員,謝謝左院長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
1834.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
1838.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
報告院會上午質詢到此為止。本次會議 |