| IVOD_ID |
153694 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153694 |
| 日期 |
2024-06-06 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-23-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
15 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-06-06T10:05:58+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-06-06T10:16:04+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:06 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5d0823be2e3185a6ab42b94709b0a08048282b1d5b897dd1c819318ace39e6e1f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林俊憲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:05:58 - 10:16:04 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。
二、邀請交通部就「台二線70K崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【合併詢答】【6月3日及6日二天一次會】） |
| gazette.lineno |
289 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
林委員俊憲：（10時6分）謝謝主席。本席邀請交通部陳次長及公總。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請陳次長及公總陳文瑞局長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
陳次長彥伯：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
林委員俊憲：次長好。次長，我們今天來關心基隆公路邊坡塌下來的事情，當然有很多委員來關心這個事情，都要求你要做個總體檢，其實公總應該在去年就完成了總體檢嘛！你們在一年前針對C級以上的邊坡就總體檢完了，也就是總體檢做過了，滿一年，在總體檢的報告裡面有沒有提出有可能會崩塌的邊坡？沒有啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
陳次長彥伯：據我的瞭解，總體檢…… |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
林委員俊憲：你們的總體檢裡面大概全部都及格啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
陳次長彥伯：沒有，總體檢完了以後，據我的瞭解，有些邊坡我們做了一些升級的處理，如果…… |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
林委員俊憲：只是級數的調整而已啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
陳次長彥伯：我想我們可以提供給委員參考。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
林委員俊憲：當然你們不可能完全預知，但有危險的要加強，不過今年落石的次數非常多，這就是一個徵兆，今年到現在才不到半年，落石通報件數已經有19件了，去年（2023年）才4件，前年11件，也就是今年到5月的落石事件就比前兩年加起來還要多。我們真正關心的基隆崩塌事件是最可怕的，就是毫無症狀，你們檢查也及格、也符合那個門檻，就是不需要特別巡查，你知道你們有一個特別巡查的門檻，你知道嗎？次長，你知道吧！陳局長，你跟次長講一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
陳局長文瑞：有。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
林委員俊憲：裡面提到3小時累積雨量要120啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
陳局長文瑞：對，降雨量、地震都有。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
林委員俊憲：然後前兩天累積雨量要350。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
陳局長文瑞：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
林委員俊憲：這個都沒有啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
陳局長文瑞：沒有。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
林委員俊憲：這個沒有，為什麼塌下來？這種狀況最危險，所以我認為你們的門檻要調整，為什麼？因為基隆在最近就有41次的大雨特報，然後臺灣又發生了大地震，花蓮地震嘛！是不是這樣子？所以這就是為什麼會造成，在地震以後光餘震就有一千多次，而且基隆大雨特報，最近兩個月內、從4月到6月發布了41次的大雨特報，但是對照你們必須特別巡查的門檻，通通不需要，如果以發生事故的這個地方，難道不是這樣嗎？是不是這樣？陳局長，是這樣嗎？所以我認為你們的特別巡查門檻應該要檢討，如果是有地震或者是有連續大雨，幾天以內達到多少次的大雨特報，就是你們所謂的檢討是要檢討這一次發生狀況前後的一些因素，不然這個邊坡如果這次沒有塌下來，在公總的紀錄裡面這個是安全的，也不用特別去檢查，它就沒事啊！難道不是這樣嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
陳次長彥伯：委員，有關這個門檻是不是要調整，我想我們會請公路局來做一些檢討，但是本次事件除了門檻這些，其實還有一大因素是地質上的，嚴格來講，我們相關的裡頭沒有把它考慮進去，這一部分是我們後續要檢討的部分。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
林委員俊憲：如果你沒有把它考慮進去也是一樣啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
陳次長彥伯：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
林委員俊憲：你就覺得那個不用特別去查啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
陳次長彥伯：對，就是有這種現象。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
林委員俊憲：以最近的天候狀況也不需要啊！難道不是這樣嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
陳次長彥伯：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
林委員俊憲：當然公總的資源應該要再加強，你看高鐵的預警山崩落石，高鐵管的邊坡有389處，其中有危險的幾乎都有裝落石警告系統，它還有地震偵測、邊坡滑動偵測、風速偵測、洪水偵測、豪雨偵測，甚至有闖入的警告偵測，通通有。公總管的邊坡就有一千七百多個地方，你們還要再分ABC級，有關你們的硬體設備，我記得交通部也編了很多錢給你們，你們不足的地方應該要再趕快補強，是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
陳次長彥伯：這個我想我們會請公路局來檢討。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
林委員俊憲：你們至少要達到接近高鐵的標準吧！你看高鐵有裝各種的偵測系統，還是高鐵比較有錢？ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
陳次長彥伯：不是高鐵比較有錢啦！我覺得高鐵的行車安全…… |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
林委員俊憲：高鐵的偵測系統當然主要全部都是預防嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
陳次長彥伯：是，而且它本身也是…… |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
林委員俊憲：因為高鐵速度快嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
陳次長彥伯：它在設計…… |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
林委員俊憲：只有傅崐萁開的高鐵會有兩秒鐘煞車啦！高鐵是兩、三百公里在開，它一定需要這些系統，確實高鐵營運以來都沒有發生邊坡塌下來而造成事故等等，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
陳次長彥伯：是，這個我們會看怎麼樣來做，但是高鐵也好或者是高公局，其實某種程度是人工邊坡比較多的。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
林委員俊憲：我認為你們特別巡查的標準要再檢討。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
陳次長彥伯：好，是。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
林委員俊憲：因為你們訂得太死了，像某個地區連續四十幾次的大雨特報，你總會感到緊張吧！或者是在地震以後，是不是特別警示的地方要再去看？ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
陳次長彥伯：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
林委員俊憲：我請教一下運安會主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
林主任委員信得：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
林委員俊憲：主委好。我現在比較擔心的是運安會，你們現在是國家級的機構──國家運輸安全調查委員會，我擔心你們的人才流失問題，你們的航空調查組有一位調查官是有執照的機師，結果被星宇航空給挖去了，為什麼？因為開了3倍薪水，如果是我，我也跑了，對不對？你們就留不住這種人才了。然後你們有一位水路調查官，這位調查官具有船長的資格，他也被挖角了，去擔任引水人，薪水也很高，是進出港的那種引水人，所以他也跑掉了。我看你們現在的調查官還有很多缺額，還缺8個人，航空調查官現在缺了3個，航空調查官的編制是10個，至少要有一位開過飛機吧！你們現在剩下7個，你們有飛行經驗的嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
林主任委員信得：我們現在有飛行經驗的…… |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
林委員俊憲：現在裡面都沒有了。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
林主任委員信得：還有3個。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
林委員俊憲：你們有嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
林主任委員信得：有3個，還有3個，我記得還有3個。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
林委員俊憲：你要怎麼樣留住人才？像這樣狀況的話，你們缺額補得起來嗎？我很擔心啦！因為你們最近六年就離職10個，今年就離職3個，通通都是被挖角。所以運安會，既然你們的位階現在是定為國家級的一個單位，那為什麼吸引不到人才？可能是福利、薪資等等以外…… |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
林主任委員信得：這個是…… |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
林委員俊憲：我舉個例子給你參考，因為我時間有限，像澳洲的運安會，從學校的大學、研究所就跟學術界配合，去培訓未來所需要的調查官，這點可以給你當參考。 |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
林主任委員信得：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
林委員俊憲：要不然你永遠留不住人才，因為你們所訂定的人力裡面有些要求的標準都很高，要有機師執照、要會開飛機，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
林主任委員信得：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
林委員俊憲：或者水路調查要有船長的執照，這兩類啊！有機師執照和船長執照在調查官裡面是薪水最高的，但是他再怎麼高都比不上民間，對不對？那麼你是不是很容易流失，怎麼辦？你現在缺了八個人，我看你最近6年每一年都有人離開，這樣業務會受影響嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
林主任委員信得：目前是OK啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
林委員俊憲：OK是怎樣？那就不用補了，還是你們沒有什麼事可以做？ |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
林主任委員信得：還是要補啊！現在有人來參訪、學校有來參訪或是我們去宣導的時候，我們都會告訴他們這個地方需要人才，那麼事實上人才的缺乏現在是普遍性的，航空公司也缺人，我們這邊也缺人，而且跟國內少子化也有一點關係，所以現在我們是多管齊下在做。跟委員報告，譬如我們航空組的調查官，我們的組成分子除了captain機師以外，我們還會修飛機、要懂航務系統…… |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
林委員俊憲：我知道，它有很多種，要有法律背景，又要有什麼背景，一大堆啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
林主任委員信得：把它整個組合起來的。 |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
林委員俊憲：但你至少要有會開飛機的吧！ |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
林主任委員信得：對，我們現在有3個。 |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
林委員俊憲：你不會開飛機怎麼調查飛安事故？至少要有經驗的嘛！你不會開車，你怎麼調查車禍？ |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
林主任委員信得：沒有錯。 |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
林委員俊憲：你連車都不會開，車禍你是要…… |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
林主任委員信得：我們人力整個調配在幾個…… |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
林委員俊憲：好，因為時間的問題，以上建議給你當參考。 |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
林主任委員信得：是，謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
林委員俊憲：謝謝主委、謝謝主席。 |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
主席：謝謝林俊憲委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[68][1] |
待會等徐富癸委員發言完畢，休息10分鐘。 |
| gazette.blocks[68][2] |
現在請黃健豪委員發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
436 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-23-15 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
陳雪生 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
林沛祥 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
林國成 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
李昆澤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
陳素月 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
林俊憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
黃健豪 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
徐富癸 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
蔡其昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
何欣純 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
許智傑 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
游顥 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
廖先翔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
魯明哲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
邱若華 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
林月琴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
381 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-06-06 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1135801 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1135801_00006 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通
部就「台二線70K 崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢【合併詢答】 |
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市長好謝謝主席本席邀請我們交通部陳市長陳市長請還有龔總龔總從內局長好委員好市長好市長我們今天要來關心啊就基隆那個公路邊坡塌下來的事情 |
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剛剛我們陸委員來關鍵這個事情都要求你要做個總體檢那其實公總應該在去年就完成了總體檢我們在一年前C級以上的邊坡就總體檢完了也就是說總體檢做過了滿一年那在總體檢的報告裡面有沒有提出會有可能有崩塌的邊坡 |
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沒有啦我的了解總體檢...你的總體檢裡面喔是大概全部都及格啦沒有總體檢完了以後我們有我的了解有其...有些邊坡我們做了一些升級的一個處理如果我想我們去報告委員可以送給委員參考啦當然你不可能說完全預知啦但有危險的你要加強 |
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106.003 |
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不過今年落實的次數都非常多這就是一個徵兆今年到現在才不到半年已經落實通報件數有19件去年2023年才4件前年11件也就是說今年到5月落實的事件就比前兩年加起來還要多了 |
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那其中今年就是我們真正關心的基隆這個崩塌的事件他是最可怕的就是毫無症狀那你們檢查也及格了那也符合那個門檻就是說不需要特別巡查你知道你有一個特別巡查的門檻你知道嗎?社長你知道吧? |
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158.004 |
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陳局長,你有出場說話嗎?有。就是說,你們就三小時累積雨量要120啦。對對對。然後前兩天累積雨量要用350。是是。啊這個都沒有。沒有。啊這個沒有為什麼要塌下來?這種狀況最危險。所以我認為啦,你的門檻要調整。為什麼?因為基隆啊,基隆在最近就有41次的大雨透爆。 |
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然後我們台灣又發生了大地震花蓮地震是不是這樣子所以這是為什麼造成地震以後光餘震就1000多次了然後基隆大雨特報最近兩個月內從4月到6月發布了41次的大雨特報但是你來對照你的必須特別巡查的那個門檻通通不需要 |
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如果以後發生事故這個地方,幹什麼呢?是不是這樣?陳局長幹什麼呢?所以我認為你這個特別尋找門檻應該要檢討你如果說有地震或者是有連續大雨幾天以內那達到多少次的大雨特報就是說你要有你所謂的檢討,要檢討這一次發生狀況前後的一些因素 |
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228.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
啊不然你這個邊坡如果他今天沒有塌下來在你工種的紀錄裡面這個是安全的啊也不用特別去檢查他就沒事了啊那不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
230.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
248.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我以為有關這個門檻是不是要調整我想我們會請公務局來做一些檢討但是本次事件除了這個門檻這些其實它有一大大因素是地質上的我們沒有嚴格來講我們相關的裡頭沒有把它考慮進去的那這部分是我們後續要檢討的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
250.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
265.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
如果你沒有把他考慮進去也是一樣啊。你就覺得那個不用特別去查啊。所以以最近的天候狀況也不需要啊。是不是這樣?當然工種的資源應該要再加強啦。你看高鐵。高鐵的那個預警三分落實。 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
268.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
282.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
高鐵管的邊坡389處其中大概有危險的幾乎都有裝落式警告系統地震偵測、邊坡滑動偵測、風速偵測、洪水偵測、豪雨偵測甚至闖入警告偵測通通有因為工種管的邊坡就有1700多個地方還要再分ABC級 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
293.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
314.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
你那個硬體設備我記得交通部也編了很多錢給你那你應該要趕快不足的地方應該要再趕快來補強是不是我想我們會請公務局來檢討你至少要達到接近高鐵的標準吧高鐵你看他有裝各種那種偵測系統還是高鐵比較有錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
319.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
345.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
不是高鐵靠近啦我覺得高鐵他這個政策系統當然當然就是覺得全部都是預防嘛是是而且他本身也是因為高鐵速度快嘛他在設計只有五分鐘開的高鐵會有兩秒鐘煞車啦所以高鐵啊他兩三百公里在開他一定需要這些系統那確實高鐵營運以來就沒有發生邊坡塌下來造成的事故等等對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
347.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
357.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我認為你那個特別巡查的標準要再檢討,因為你頂上市了,你像某個地區它連續四十幾次的大雨特暴,你總會覺得緊張吧?或者是說它地震以後那是不是要在特別警示的地方再去看? |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
373.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
376.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
好 我來請教一下運安會啦 運安會主委主委好 我現在比較擔心的是運安會 你現在是國家級的機構啦國家運輸安全委員會 我擔心你的人才流失的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
394.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
420.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我們的航空組吼,航空調查組吼,調查官吼,裡面有一位調查官吼,他是有執照的機師吼,結果被新的航空給挖去了吼,為什麼?薪水開了三倍,三倍薪水,那個人我也照他吼,對不對?你就留不住這種人才吼,然後我們一位水路的調查官吼, |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
422.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
449.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這位調查官具有船長的資格他也被挖角了去擔任那個飲水人那薪水也很高建築港的那種飲水人所以他也跑掉了我們現在的調查官我看還有很多缺額還有缺8個人那航空調查官現在缺了3個人航空調查官編制10個人那你至少要有一位開過飛機吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
450.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
479.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那你現在剩下7個,你們有飛行經驗的嗎?我們現在有飛行經驗的還有3個你們有嗎?有3個,我記得還有3個那你要怎麼樣留住人才?像這樣的那種狀況的話,你缺額你補得起來嗎?我很擔心啦,因為你最近6年就離職10個啦今年就離職3個啦,通通都是被挖角通通都是被挖角 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
480.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
510.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
所以我們運安會啊既然你的位階現在是定位國家級的一個單位那為什麼吸引不到人才可能是福利啊薪資等等以外我舉個例子跟你參考啦因為我時間有限像澳洲的運安會啊他從學校啊大學跟研究所啊他就跟學術界來配合他就去配合未來他需要的調查官 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
512.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
522.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這點可以給你當參考要不然你永遠都不是人才因為我們訂的裡面的人力有些要求的標準都很高你要有機師執照你要會開飛機 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
525.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
546.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
或者說你水路調查你要有船長的執照這兩類啊有機師執照和船長執照在調查官裡面是薪水最高的但再怎麼高都不會比不上你民間嘛 對不對那你是不是很容易流失那你怎麼辦你現在缺了八個人我看你最近六年每一年都有人離開還是你這樣業務會受影響嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
552.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
576.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
目前是OK啦 那就不用補啦我們現在有人在參訪學校有來參訪我們去宣導的時候我們都會告訴他們說這個地方需要人才那麼事實上人才的缺乏現在不普遍性的航空公司也缺人我們這邊也缺人而且跟國內少子化也有一點關係所以所以現在我們這個是多管齊下在做那跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
577.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
577.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
以上今天給你當參考 |