| IVOD_ID |
153560 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153560 |
| 日期 |
2024-06-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-19-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
15 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-06-05T09:59:10+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-06-05T10:08:59+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:09:49 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98cd119d4e8c261a36a6cabf0dc0d1a8b768f95e3d087843c273a7b2597b81be3d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
張啓楷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:59:10 - 10:08:59 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。） |
| gazette.lineno |
229 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
張委員啓楷：（9時59分）謝謝主席，邀請比陸委會更瞭解中國大陸的郭部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：來，請郭部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
張委員啓楷：部長，從發布到現在，看起來各界對你的期待還滿高的，目前評價不錯。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
郭部長智輝：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
張委員啓楷：不過今天要談你的三大挑戰，這應該也是賴清德總統當初給你的三大挑戰。第一個，電到底夠不夠？而且不只要夠，它要是一個穩定的電，而且是低碳的電，剛才召委特別談到，這幾天黃仁勳、IC的巨頭現在都在臺灣，你剛剛的報告也特別提到了，整個AI跟半導體的發展是你的重中之重，可是其耗電都非常重喔，所以我現在要跟你討論的是，有沒有辦法做到穩定跟低碳的電？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][1] |
我們看一下第三張的PowerPoint，你第一次來，現在請看到螢幕上的右下角，我們先討論臺灣的電足夠之外，到底穩不穩定？你看右下角這張圖，這是每一個月風力發電的發電量，部長，哪4個月的發電量最少？從這個圖上看起來，比較高的發電量就高，對不對？比較矮的發電量就少，所以哪4個月發電量最少？ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
郭部長智輝：就是在夏天的時候。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
張委員啓楷：對啊！就是現在嘛！6、7、8、9月，但6、7、8、9月不就是我們最需要用電的時候？結果風力發電又是最少的，從這個圖還看出一個問題，你看12個月份裡面高低起伏非常大，而且1到3月跟10到12月發電是最多的，其他特別是我們要用電的時候非常地低，這是第一個重點，對不對？所以它不穩定嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[6][1] |
第二個點，它有先天的缺陷，天氣越熱的時候發電越少，它不見得是一個穩定的電，是不是這樣、對不對？這個結論可以嗎？第二個，不只是風電而已，太陽能也是嘛，對不對？太陽能不要講太陽下山就沒有發電了，有時候天空飄過一朵雲，電力就開始有波動，所以這兩個都是不夠穩定的電，老實講，國際媒體跟專家也都提出這樣的提醒。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][2] |
第三個，你要的是一個低碳的電，對不對？結果你看3月份連亞馬遜都扛不住了，亞馬遜花了多少？207.5億去買核電，所以你現在要克服兩個很重要的問題，第一個是再生能源，我們是要發展風電跟太陽能，沒有錯，可是它是一個不穩定的電，誠如你剛剛說的，你要發展AI、半導體需要非常非常穩定的電，對不對？看起來你的挑戰很大；第二個，核電到底怎麼辦？連亞馬遜都要花這麼多錢了。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][3] |
清大核工所的葉宗洸教授，他說特別要提醒你，剛才鄭正鈐委員在誇獎你把核三廠當成備援電力，我是比較擔心，覺得你的說法好像已經快渴死的人還在那邊挖井，你有這種感覺嗎？來，我分析給你聽，我用葉教授的方法分析給你聽，他說如果要當成一個備援電力，第一個，7月27日核三廠一號機馬上要停了、要除役喔！你要做幾個動作啊！其一，你先提出執照更新的申請；其二，你要進行必要的安檢跟測試；其三，你要取得管制機關的延役許可；其四，這個機組才能夠保持待機，隨時可以用啊！這些動作如果你都沒有做，怎麼會是備援電力呢？就會停掉了，還需要等你發現AI用電不夠，才開始來挖井，人渴都渴死了！我看你的解決方案，你說這個是國發會主委要去處理的，對不對？你要好好跟他討論一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
郭部長智輝：不是。報告委員，目前的法還存在，現在是在這個法的框架之下，我必須要依法行事，如果法修正了，我就會按照這個程序去進行，但現在因為依法，我是不能夠進行這個程序，所以這一點跟委員報告，我現在是…… |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
張委員啓楷：對啊！你是賴清德總統找來的，你就有責任，這個問題要解決…… |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
郭部長智輝：是、是！所以…… |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
張委員啓楷：執政黨自己要想辦法，要嘛執政黨修法，在不修法的狀態下，可以先提出執照更新的申請，你自己要去解套啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
郭部長智輝：對，是這樣子。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
張委員啓楷：你剛才說國發會主委要做這件事情，但你會更重要，這是你要用電的啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
郭部長智輝：我們現在是…… |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
張委員啓楷：我知道最能夠解決問題的是賴清德總統嘛，如果他找你，你要老實說啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
郭部長智輝：現在是這樣啦，我考慮在這個法的架構之下，還有其他的方法嗎？我有其他的方法可以解決現在目前缺電問題，如果有可能發生缺電要怎麼解決，因為這有法律的問題，我比較難處理，但是我可以利用風跟光的部分來解決這個問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
張委員啓楷：剛才談到風跟光發電不穩定，對不對？到目前為止，8年，蔡總統老實講很努力了。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
郭部長智輝：報告委員，因為過去…… |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
張委員啓楷：我跟部長講，我查台電的數據，只有增加差不多4%而已，8年4%，你說會增加多少，而且又不穩定。我知道你要講的是天然氣，四接跟五接接得上嗎？四接、五接，你到底接不接得上？現在三接要到明年6月份，這個能不能完工，老實講我們會畫一個問號，當然我們期待可以如期完工，影響比較大的是四接跟五接，到目前為止，四接跟五接都還在環評欸！你看一下喔，現在四接遇到什麼？珊瑚的生態、漁業經濟的爭議，五接影響更大了，有白海豚生態的爭議，從2021年3月開了第一次環評之後，相隔21個月，把現在時間加上去可能有三十幾個月都沒再開會了，四接跟五接真的接得上來嗎？如果接不上來，真的出了一個差錯，雖有天然氣還是沒辦法運轉喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
郭部長智輝：是，沒有錯。我們現在是把各種的狀況開始在做精密地評估，剛才委員所指教的不穩定的事情，現在已經有比較智慧整合、智慧調度的部分，包括AI也可以進來幫忙…… |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
張委員啓楷：智慧調度，不要調來調去，調到像桃園一下子停電四十幾次，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
郭部長智輝：對，好！ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
張委員啓楷：這個也很重要。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
郭部長智輝：是、是。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
張委員啓楷：所以我剛剛提到的，老實講這幾個都是很重大的挑戰，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
郭部長智輝：謝謝委員指導。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
張委員啓楷：我再提醒一個重要事情──風電，老實說最近風電出了一些事情，風電現在一度已經快賣到6塊錢，對不對？結果現在找不到買主，部長，前幾天包括財政部部長接受質詢都說了，連公股的聯貸銀行到現在仍在評估，可能都有風險啊！現在有兩個問題，公股銀行要不要貸款給它？這是第一個，因為價錢太高嘛！第二個，一度6塊錢都沒人要買了，所以在風電的推動上又是另外一個問題。另外，我特別提醒一件事，當然我們要推動風電國產化，可是部長，你一定在前陣子有看到幾個國外媒體的提醒，我們的國產化現在如果做得不好，包括興建成本太高，發電成本越來越貴，興建風電廠的能力又不足，最後淪為要政府去配合廠商的調度標準，再這樣下去電就賣不出去了，連國際媒體都在提醒，這樣你就會缺電喔！你要準備停電喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
郭部長智輝：我們這一部分會接受委員的指導，這個部分我們會深入評估。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
張委員啓楷：好，謝謝部長，大家對你都有期待，目前是肯定的。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
張委員啓楷：可是你看我一路這樣談下來，三大挑戰都是非常嚴酷…… |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
郭部長智輝：這一部分我們會來思考，如何來解決。 |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
張委員啓楷：期待你可以趕快處理，特別我剛剛講的，你真的把核三廠一號機、二號機當成備用的…… |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
郭部長智輝：是的。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
張委員啓楷：你要再想一想，你要怎麼解決這個問題，不要到時候問題已經來了，你再去挖那個井，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
郭部長智輝：好，謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
張委員啓楷：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
主席：謝謝張啓楷委員，也謝謝郭部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][1] |
接下來請楊瓊瓔委員發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
272 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-19-15 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
邱議瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
林岱樺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
呂玉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
洪申翰 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
陳培瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
王定宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
賴惠員 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
羅廷瑋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
涂權吉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[26] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[27] |
李柏毅 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
199 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-06-05 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1135601 |
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1135601_00005 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄 |
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邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢 |
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我們10點30分的時候會先休息5分鐘。謝謝主席。來,我們邀請比陸委會更了解中國大陸的國部長。來,請國部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
34.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
60.778 |
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法定主席發布到現在看起來各界對你期待還蠻高的啦謝謝評價不錯不過今天要談你的三大挑戰這應該也是賴清德賴總統當初給你的三大挑戰第一電到底有夠嗎而且不只要過它要是一個穩定的電而且是低碳的電我們看剛才我們的主席我們的召委對不對說這幾天 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
63.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
83.956 |
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黃仁鑫IC的這個巨頭都現在在台灣嘛這看起來你剛才報告也特別提到了整個AI的這個AI跟這個半導體的發展是你重中之重可是它耗電都非常重喔所以我現在要給你討論的它你有沒有辦法做到一個穩定的電跟低碳的電來我們看一下看一下第三張的這個砲盆來 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
87.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
100.028 |
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你現在看你的螢幕你第一次來你看螢幕裡面右下角我們先討論我們台灣的電到底足夠之外穩不穩定你看右下角這個圖這是每一個月風力發電的發電量對哪四個月發電發電量最少 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
112.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
127.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
你這個圖看起來,比較高的發電量就高嘛對不對?那這個比較矮的發電量最少嗎?對矽光灰發電量最小?這四個月,這是夏天的時候對啊,現在嘛67896789不是我們用電統計的時間,最需要電的時候,結果風地發電又是最少 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
139.959 |
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148.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
這裏面從這個圖還看出來一個問題你看十幾個月裏面高低起伏非常的大而且一到三月跟十到十二月 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
150.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
172.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
發電是最多的,其他特別是我們要電的時候,非常的低,所以它不穩定嘛,第二個點,它有先天的切線,天氣越來越少,所以它不見得是一個穩定的電,所以是不是這樣,對不對,這個結論可以嗎?對齁,第二點,不只是風電而已,太陽也會死, |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
177.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
204.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
太陽能也是嘛 對不對太陽能不要講說太陽下山就沒有發電了有時候天空飄過一朵雲電力就開始有波動嘛 對不對所以這兩個都是不夠穩定的電這老實講國際媒體跟專家也都提出這樣的一個提醒第一你要的是一個低碳的電 對不對是一個低碳的電嘛結果你看三月份連亞馬遜都扛不住啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
205.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
231.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
亞馬遜花了多少?207.5億去買核電所以你現在克服了兩個很重要的問題第一 再生能源 風電跟太陽能我們是要發展沒有錯可是它是一個不穩定的電 像你剛才在說的你要發展AI 半導體它要非常非常穩定的電 對不對?看起來你的挑戰很大第二 核電到底怎麼辦?我們再看下一個連亞馬遜都要發這麼多錢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
235.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
260.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
青大河工所的教授 葉教授 葉宗光他說他特別要提起你剛才鄭省委員說你有把這個河山廠當成這個備用的對不對備援的電力我是比較高興的你有覺得你的動畫好像那個已經快渴死還沒瓦解你有這種感覺嗎來我分析給你聽我用葉教授的方法分析給你聽他說你如果要當成一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
261.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
285.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
配員的電力跌下河山廠馬上一號機727馬上就要停了要處理你要做幾個動作第一個你先提出你的執照更新的申請第二你要進行必要的安檢跟測試第三你要取得管制機關的全域的許可第四你這個機組才能夠保持待機隨時可以用你這個動作如果都沒做你怎麼會是配員的電力停下 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
291.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
291.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
報告委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
310.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
324.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
這個目前的法還在存在我現在這個法是在這個法的這個框架之下我必須要依法行事所以這個部份那發修掉我就會按照這個程序去進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
326.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
354.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
現在是因為依法我是不能夠進行這個程序的所以這一點 給委員報告就是 說我現在是 現在這個問題要解 要解解就是 執政黨要 執政黨自己要想辦法嘛 要嘛你執政黨修法那不修法狀態下你要不要做到一個 可以先提出執照的這更新的申請你自己要去解套啦 是這樣 我放下講就說國發會主委要做這樣的事情嘛你又太重要 這要用電的啊 我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
356.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
375.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
所以能夠解決的要請德賴總統嗎?請你報告委員現在是這樣,我考慮在這個法的架構之下,我有其他的方法嗎?我有其他的方法可以解決現在目前欠電的問題,如果有可能發生欠電,這個要怎麼解決?這因為有法律的問題我比較難處理,但是我可以利用風跟光的部分來解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
382.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
386.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我查台電的這個數據,增加差不多只有4%而已,被你4%你都增加多少,又不穩定了,我們看下一個啦,我知道你在講的是那個天然氣啦,來,你4J到5J接得上嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
401.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
402.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
三福的生態、漁業經濟的爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
427.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
447.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
五街影響更大了五白海豚的這個生態的這個爭議他從2021年3月開的第一次的這個環評之後相隔21個月那把現在時間再加上去可能有30幾個月都不夠幾個啊你的四街跟五街真的接得上來嗎你如果接不上來真的出了一個插手 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
448.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
475.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
有天然氣你還沒辦法一轉是沒有錯我們現在是把各省的這個狀況開始在做這個精密的這個評估那剛才委員所指教的這個不穩定的事情現在已經有這個比較智慧整合智慧調度這個部分包括AI也是可以在禮拜來調什麼樣智慧調度不要調去調到那個調到像 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
475.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
482.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
陶園陶園 陶園 陶園 陶園 陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園陶園 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
504.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
531.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
執行的時候都說 現在連公股的聯貸銀行都評估可能都有風險 現在兩個問題 公股銀行要不要貸款給他這是一個 因為價錢太高嘛 啊第二你一堆六塊都沒人買所以在風電的推動上又是另外一個問題另外我特別提醒一件事 我們看一下風電當然是要推動國產化可是部長你前陣子有看到幾個國外媒體的提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
532.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
534.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我們這個這一部分會接受這個委員的指導這個部分我們會深入評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
558.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
558.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
588.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
588.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
謝謝張啓楷 |