| IVOD_ID |
153437 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153437 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-31 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-1-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期第16次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
16 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第1會期第16次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-31T16:12:27+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-31T16:43:06+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:30:39 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63981a741ba438d0712c51cde0193cbde212215d61b9ffb218019a0b70fe733be1d9fb632310eb915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林思銘 |
| 委員發言時間 |
16:12:27 - 16:43:06 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-31T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第1會期第16次會議（事由：一、行政院院長報告施政方針並備質詢。
二、5月31日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。
三、本次會議不處理臨時提案。） |
| gazette.lineno |
1203 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
林委員思銘：（16時12分）謝謝韓院長。有請行政院卓院長。 |
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主席：再請卓院長。 |
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卓院長榮泰：林委員好。 |
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林委員思銘：卓院長好。卓院長，我想我繼續跟您討論國會改革的議題，院長，我們立法院國會改革的法案是一部「讓陽光照進國會」的法案，讓行政、立法相互制衡監督，共同謀求國家的改革進步，所以此次的修法是立法院職權行使法以及刑法的相關修正。院長，您是否瞭解整個修法的內容，您瞭解嗎？ |
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卓院長榮泰：現在的階段我只能從報導上面看到，我還沒有看到正式的公文書。 |
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林委員思銘：是，我想早上您有回答傅總召，表示說您還尚未收到立院的公文，您不瞭解條文的內容嘛！ |
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卓院長榮泰：只能從新聞報導的角度來瞭解。 |
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林委員思銘：但是如果你不瞭解，為何您來拜會我們的黨團或者拜會民眾黨黨團，您在第一時間或者民進黨黨團……我們看到的，您有表示，在不瞭解條文內容的狀況下，你就要提出覆議？ |
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卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，不能說是不瞭解條文的內容，因為我看到的是許多國人對這個過程認為程序是否完備、是否侵害到人民的權利、是否有違憲之虞、是否有法律明確性的欠缺等等，我都看到了國人的這些疑慮，站在行政機關的立場必須解決這些疑慮，所以我看到條文、公文來的時候，大院來文時，我們來對照到底程度以及影響層面是多大。 |
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林委員思銘：院長，我大概跟你講一下，我們這次修法有五個重點，第一個是聽證調查權，另外是藐視國會罪、總統國情報告、加強人事審查權，還有正副院長的記名投票，這五個改革的法案。請問對這五個改革的法案，哪一部分您認為會窒礙難行，您必須提出覆議？ |
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卓院長榮泰：我想委員跟我都同時有觀察到，包括監察院也對於權力分立提出了他們的看法，其他的剛剛我已經舉例過了。至於院長、副院長的選擇，當然純粹就是院內先進、委員的事情。 |
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林委員思銘：所以聽證調查權這一部分您認為有…… |
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卓院長榮泰：監察院已經提出它的看法，我們必須要兼顧。 |
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林委員思銘：立法院擁有聽證調查權，您說監察院有意見，您自己也是同樣的意見嗎？ |
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卓院長榮泰：我覺得人事同意權，不要跟這些調查權等等混為一談，提供資料當然也是必須據實的提供資料，但院會跟委員會還是要有差別的。調查權跟調閱權，這個在字義上以及在功能上是不一樣的。 |
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林委員思銘：院長，您是大師兄，在民進黨，您有一定的地位。您剛才也提到整個立法過程，您接收到是有立法的程序不正義。我們來看一下執政黨過去在立法各項程序的表現，我們看一下影片。 |
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（播放影片） |
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林委員思銘：院長，這是過去民進黨在前瞻基礎建設條例的審查過程，您剛才有聽到，我們在審查的過程中，在委員會委員有異議，主席完全不理會，就說通過、通過、通過，這個叫程序正義嗎？我們這個法案經過了1次專案報告，3次公聽會以及黨團協商，還有院長的協商，民進黨委員發言次數也非常非常的多，所以這是一個公開透明的一個立法，一直誣衊說是程序不正義的立法、黑箱的立法，我想對於整個立法院所有委員，這個是我們不能接受的。 |
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卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，一開始委員有提到，這是一個讓陽光照進立法院…… |
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林委員思銘：照進國會的法案。 |
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卓院長榮泰：如果這是一個讓陽光照進立法院的改革，那時候的陽光為什麼照不進來？如果那個時候的陽光不是陽光，那現在我們要尋求的就不是那樣的陽光啊！ |
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林委員思銘：院長，我告訴你，你們的講法是說時空環境不一樣…… |
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卓院長榮泰：不是，時代要進步，不只不一樣，我們要進步。 |
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林委員思銘：時代要進步啊！所以時代進步，陽光要照進國會啊！我說你們的邏輯在哪裡啊？過去你們在野的時候…… |
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卓院長榮泰：在委員的標準裡面，當初這個也是陽光啊！ |
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林委員思銘：說要提出國會改革法案…… |
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卓院長榮泰：但是那個陽光…… |
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林委員思銘：現在你們在朝了，你們執政了…… |
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卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，林佳龍部長特別講得很清楚，他當初所說的是調閱權，而不是調查權，還是有程度上的不同，還是在憲政體制下做適當的分野。 |
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林委員思銘：那是他講的啦，整個草案我們都看過，甚至藐視國會也是有刑罰，還判比較重喔！林濁水、過去民進黨的大老，他說遲到30年的國會改革，民進黨若繼續緊抱五權憲法，將白白浪費進步的機會。所以我們要隨著時代的進步，就是你剛才講的嘛！國會改革轟轟烈烈鬧了30年，轟轟烈烈的鬧開了，等了30年，是好事，所以我真的不瞭解，進到國會我是第2屆，過去我沒有參與，但是我覺得這麼好的一個立法、國會的改革法案，讓國會能夠親民，讓國會能夠問政，更有監督制衡的力量，讓行政部門未來更有效能，更能廉能執政。這麼好的一個法案、相互制衡監督的一個法案，完全符合三權分立的原則，為什麼民進黨你們要抗拒改革？為什麼要抗拒？ |
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卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，沒有抗拒改革，我覺得我們當然必須制衡、監督，這是必要的。 |
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林委員思銘：院長，因為您說要覆議，要提釋憲，我們現在就來審視一下法條，您知道國會聽證調查權調查的範圍是什麼？ |
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卓院長榮泰：請委員明示。 |
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林委員思銘：我把法條翻給你看，依照三讀通過的第四十五條，「設調查專案小組，對相關議案或與立法委員職權相關之事項行使調查權及調閱權」，所以是限定於相關議案或立法委員職權相關之事項，它是在立法院的立法委員行使職權，對於特定的議案我們認為有弊端，我們要加以調查，不是漫無範圍的、漫無邊際的去加以調查。 |
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卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，外界有200位法律學者也提出對於法律內容的明確性是不是不足，這點都值得我們深思。 |
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林委員思銘：是，我想法律學者有200位有這種看法，我們尊重，但是有更多的法律學者看法是不一樣的。 |
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卓院長榮泰：我也會一併的重視。 |
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林委員思銘：我要明確的告訴你。 |
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卓院長榮泰：更多的意見，我也會一併重視跟考量。 |
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林委員思銘：正反意見都有。 |
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卓院長榮泰：會的。 |
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林委員思銘：但是我要告訴你，立法委員絕對是遵守憲法的分際，不會亂立法，不是你們講的好像我們蠻橫無理，要特別告訴你，所以我要給你看法條嘛！議案調查有一定的範圍。我舉例，比如就是光電弊案、查雞蛋弊案、查疫苗採購弊案、查快篩的弊案、查NCC讓鏡電視上架的弊案，都是查這些特定議題，立法委員在行使職權、在質詢時的一些特定議題有關的職權行使上的事項。 |
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卓院長榮泰：容許我跟委員報告，剛剛那幾個案子，司法檢調機關該調查都一定會調查。 |
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林委員思銘：司法會調查，我想立法院一樣要…… |
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卓院長榮泰：這就是談到權力分立的問題。 |
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林委員思銘：相對的行政調查權才能夠讓事情水落石出。 |
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卓院長榮泰：剛剛委員有提到，我國是三權分立，這個我不敢糾正，但是我們應該不是現在就是三權分立，我們還有司法權、監察權。 |
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林委員思銘：我知道您的意思。另外，調查的對象依第四十七條條文，請院長看一下第四十七條，「調查委員或調查專案小組為行使調查權，得要求政府機關、部隊、法人、團體或社會上有關係人員」，這個是照抄林佳龍部長的條文，所以是講人、人民啊！因為現在被散播謠言、散布不實訊息說我們一般老百姓也會被調來啊！但是我們條文寫得很清楚，是要跟這個特定議案有關係，「社會上有關係人員」才會被請來，邀請他做聽證嘛！ |
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卓院長榮泰：我還是覺得這個跟法律明確性…… |
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林委員思銘：所以你們去散布說人民也會來…… |
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卓院長榮泰：如果你願意，我也可以請林佳龍部長解釋一下。 |
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林委員思銘：不用，您回答就可以，我現在就給你看條文了嘛！ |
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卓院長榮泰：對象、事實相同，行為不一定一樣。 |
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林委員思銘：所以我們邀請來聽證會的對象一定是政府人員及社會上有關係人員。 |
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另外就所謂反質詢的部分，依照我們新修正的職權行使法，「質詢之答復，不得超過質詢範圍之外，並不得反質詢」，「被質詢人除為避免國防、外交明顯立即之危害或依法應秘密之事項者，並經主席同意者外，不得拒絕答復。」也就是除了國防、外交或者應秘密的事項，他是可以拒絕答復的。並不是外界傳的什麼可以把國防秘密、外交秘密，到聽證會或者調查時也一定要揭露，這有相關的要件。 |
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卓院長榮泰：但是跟委員報告，好像這個認定的標準很低啊！ |
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林委員思銘：OK，這個我們都很明確，這個法律條文很明確啊！這沒有所謂什麼不明確的。所以我在這裡要就教在座各位部長，我想今天所有的部長都到了，基於我上述講的，我們還有一個就是官員到立法院來接受質詢「不得拒絕答復、拒絕提供資料、隱匿資訊、虛偽答復或有其他藐視國會之行為。」這是就反質詢或者說謊、拒絕答復還是隱匿，這個條文是這樣規定，如果經主席制止或者主席要求答復卻仍違反者，經「出席委員五人以上連署或附議，經院會決議，處被質詢人二萬元以上二十萬元以下罰鍰」。所以我就教在座的各位部長，我剛才講的有關反質詢或者虛偽陳述的部分，請教一下各位部長，待會兒大家舉手，未來不管是到院會或者是委員會來備詢，您會不會擔心因為自己反質詢或者虛偽陳述而受到相當的處罰？我反過來問，您不會擔心的，請舉手。 |
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卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們不用舉手來代表，因為舉手沒有聲音留下紀錄，我可以代表我們部會首長來回答。 |
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林委員思銘：好，請院長回答。 |
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卓院長榮泰：說謊是政治人物的自殺，是人格的自殺，我們絕對不會用虛偽陳述，但…… |
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林委員思銘：對嘛！所以你根本不用擔心嘛！我想在座所有部會首長不用擔心嘛！ |
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卓院長榮泰：但是機密的認定，請容許行政機關有機密認定、自我保護、保護國家這樣的…… |
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林委員思銘：這當然之理。 |
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卓院長榮泰：對。 |
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林委員思銘：也請相信我們所有的立法委員會謹守這樣的分際…… |
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卓院長榮泰：既然機制已在…… |
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林委員思銘：不可能說我們已經做到立法委員這一個職務了，還會去洩漏所謂國家的國防外交的秘密，或者是個人隱私的秘密，不會那麼low啦！ |
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卓院長榮泰：我們曾經有討論過其他的案例。 |
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林委員思銘：不要把我們想得那麼low啦！ |
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卓院長榮泰：不會、不會。但是確實有發生過一些案例，我們曾經有過這樣的憂慮。 |
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林委員思銘：不要反質詢、不要說謊…… |
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卓院長榮泰：說謊是政治人物的人格自殺。 |
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林委員思銘：讓國會能夠真正發揮監督、制衡的力量，我想這絕對是有必要的改革，所以從我剛才幾個條文的揭露，院長您認為還要提出覆議嗎？ |
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卓院長榮泰：我還是要看到全部的來文之後，比照各方的意見，我來做最後的判斷。但是容許跟委員說明，既然是憲法賦予憲政機關的權力跟責任，我就必須負起這樣的責任。 |
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林委員思銘：我也期許您在詳細閱讀各項條文之後，能夠做出正確的判斷。 |
| gazette.blocks[72][1] |
接下來我還是關心能源政策的問題，關於能源的政策，我們從台電的發電成本來看，全年發電成本最低廉的是核能，核能發一度電是1.39元；燃氣是3.44元；燃煤是3.43元；燃油是7塊半。至於綠能的部分，風力發電的成本也要4.48元；太陽光電發電成本也要4.13元。所以看來最便宜的就是核電，但是我們核能的占比目前僅占台電發電量年總量的7%。核三廠1號機在7月即將要除役，所以請問未來要不要考慮讓台電1號機延役？馬上就造成7%的缺口了。 |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。 |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
郭部長智輝：我們現在的電力，即使核三廠下機，我們還是有充分的電可以滿足用電業者來使用。 |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
林委員思銘：院長、部長，你們有信心，就是即便核三廠1號除役，電還是夠嘛！你的回答是這樣。 |
| gazette.blocks[75][1] |
我再請教，歐、美、日這些世界先進國家、工業大國都在重啟核電，是現在進行式，在他們的G7公報中，也認為核電是乾淨、安全的能源。但我心中很好奇，為什麼我們的政府寧願捨棄便宜又乾淨的能源不用，卻偏偏選擇最貴的發電方式作為我們用電的選擇，道理在哪裡？我真的到現在還搞不清楚。 |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這樣的表格跟這樣的順序，表面上是如此沒有錯，但是它背後代表的核能廢料的處理，那個代價是相當相當龐大的；核能安全的顧慮，也是人類現在還積極在面對的，所以核安、核廢的問題都不是可以這樣量化出來的標準，這個我們都要算在政府長期的投資裡面。 |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
林委員思銘：從過去反核一直到現在已經幾年了？到現在還對核能安全的貯存有疑慮？有疑慮的話，為什麼世界上這些先進國家要繼續用乾淨的核能來作為他們現在用電的最大選擇？而且現在有多少核能專家認為核能是最安全的用電？核能的貯存也可以用最先進的設備來克服，為什麼我國就是不願意就相關的安全設備研發來繼續努力，讓核能發揮最大的效益？ |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，核一、核二，甚至沒有蓋成的核四，它所可能產生的核廢處理，我跟侯友宜市長一樣關切。他跟我一樣，到目前為止，還是要列在最優先的考量，所以這不是黨派問題，也不是反核、擁核的問題，是面對環境共同的問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
林委員思銘：院長，核廢料問題是可以克服的，您現在還在堅持說不能克服？ |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我會再去請教侯友宜市長。 |
| gazette.blocks[81][0] |
林委員思銘：其實您也沒有說出很確切的答案。有關這部分，因為時間的關係，經濟部長剛上任，我希望您就這一部分，也就是到底核廢料怎麼樣貯存是最安全的？到底臺灣現在有沒有辦法有效解決核廢料貯存的問題？請政府一定要做相關的研究，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
郭部長智輝：是的，謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[83][0] |
林委員思銘：這樣你才能講清楚啊。我是今天才聽你講，過去經濟部王美花部長就這個議題都沒有講得很清楚，他只認為非核家園就是他的神主牌，他就是要去貫徹，就是要去執行。 |
| gazette.blocks[84][0] |
卓院長榮泰：部長曾經講過，核能安全、核廢處理跟社會共識，這個就是我們大家目前的態度。 |
| gazette.blocks[85][0] |
林委員思銘：我們還是要去看世界各國對核能使用的看法，臺灣要跟得上世界潮流，不要再自己閉門造車，這樣不會進步。院長，我們看到你現在要貫徹非核家園政策，這會造成什麼樣的結果？ |
| gazette.blocks[86][0] |
卓院長榮泰：依照現在的環境基本法…… |
| gazette.blocks[87][0] |
林委員思銘：我想你心知肚明，台電虧損嚴重，一直虧損嘛！然後電價一直上漲，至於台電就靠補助！又認為電價太便宜，一直講電價太便宜，所以要上漲，但電價上漲造成物價上漲，所以通膨問題就來了，而且越來越嚴重，所以我想…… |
| gazette.blocks[88][0] |
卓院長榮泰：同樣的答復，如果核能發電持續增加，那我們承受不起…… |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
林委員思銘：院長，我請你承諾！明年電價會不會持續上漲？ |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們今年已經有過一次調整，我們現在希望大院能夠…… |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
林委員思銘：我請你回答兩個議題：一個是電價會不會上漲？還有，台電會不會持續虧損？明年。 |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我分兩個部分：第一個，我們今年已經逐步調整電價，現在希望大院能夠通過我們的追加預算，對台電財務做適當補貼。至於明年的問題，我們全力來管控，如果沒有特別重大的國際事件，沒有特別影響能源發展的問題的話，我們儘量來管控，以不增加人民負擔、不增加產業負擔做我們的前提考量。 |
| gazette.blocks[93][0] |
林委員思銘：所以你現在執行的能源政策，我再接下一個問題，你保證台電絕對不會再虧損？你要扣除政府的補助，不要靠政府的補助，畢竟這也是人民的納稅錢！ |
| gazette.blocks[94][0] |
卓院長榮泰：但是政府補助就是降低所有人的負擔。 |
| gazette.blocks[95][0] |
林委員思銘：你如何讓台電不要虧損啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[96][0] |
卓院長榮泰：政府適足、適當的補助，就是降低人民的負擔。 |
| gazette.blocks[97][0] |
林委員思銘：發電成本那麼貴，如何能夠讓它不虧損？所以這是一個惡意螺旋。我想請教你的是，如果台電不虧損，是不是我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[98][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們跟其他國家的電價比較起來是偏低的，所以我們不考慮用提高電價來讓台電不虧損。 |
| gazette.blocks[99][0] |
林委員思銘：你要漲價就違背過去的承諾，就是民進黨過去執政時說絕對不會漲電價，蔡總統說絕對不會大幅度調整電價。但是你現在告訴我，你要漲電價讓台電不虧損…… |
| gazette.blocks[100][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我沒有這樣說！我說我們跟世界各國比較起來，我們的電價偏低，但我們現在不會決定用漲電價來增加人民的負擔，我們用政府的補貼來穩定電價！ |
| gazette.blocks[101][0] |
林委員思銘：所以你可以承諾明年不會漲電價？ |
| gazette.blocks[102][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們用政府的補貼來穩定電價。 |
| gazette.blocks[103][0] |
林委員思銘：明年政府還是要補貼？ |
| gazette.blocks[104][0] |
卓院長榮泰：看狀況的發生。 |
| gazette.blocks[105][0] |
林委員思銘：所以台電就年年虧損！年年虧損是什麼造成的？如果聽你這樣的邏輯，你每年都要用政府來補助…… |
| gazette.blocks[106][0] |
卓院長榮泰：所以我們電價…… |
| gazette.blocks[107][0] |
林委員思銘：台電年年虧損啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[108][0] |
卓院長榮泰：電價要不要調整是經過審議委員會啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[109][0] |
林委員思銘：你要如何讓台電不虧損？我剛才一直提醒你的，台電要如何不造成虧損？ |
| gazette.blocks[110][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們的經濟部長…… |
| gazette.blocks[111][0] |
林委員思銘：部長有什麼對策？ |
| gazette.blocks[112][0] |
卓院長榮泰：他有經營產業、有經營企業的經驗。 |
| gazette.blocks[113][0] |
林委員思銘：你認為綠能一定能夠達標嗎？一定能夠來填補我們核能所造成的電力流失嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[114][0] |
卓院長榮泰：目前我們綠能發電是有一定的進展，但是覺得還不夠，所以要再加速進行，在穩定供電的情況底下，全面發展綠能是政府的政策。 |
| gazette.blocks[115][0] |
林委員思銘：好，你不敢保證明年嘛，那你認為多久台電就不會虧損？還要多久？ |
| gazette.blocks[116][0] |
卓院長榮泰：台電的財務狀況，政府會持續關注，我們不會用漲電價、增加人民負擔的方式讓台電不虧損。 |
| gazette.blocks[117][0] |
林委員思銘：這個惡意螺旋一直都在上升，每年重複不斷看到這個問題。現在最重要的問題來了，AI產業是目前，我想包含院長您的政策也認為AI是現在我國最重要的產業政策之一嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[118][0] |
卓院長榮泰：沒錯。 |
| gazette.blocks[119][0] |
林委員思銘：但是我們看到AI模型規模不斷的擴大，它需要消耗的電力更大啊，如果我們的能源政策，這個電沒有趕快來補足的話，當核電已經沒有的時候，你說要用太陽能光電或燃煤、燃氣、燃油等來做填補，我想這個都是違背世界的趨勢，也造成我們整個溫室效應以及淨零碳排進程可能在2050年沒辦法達成，這種種效應就來了啊！所以你既要發展AI產業，但你的能源政策又不能做調整，院長，您的能源政策到目前我真的看不懂，到底邏輯在哪裡？ |
| gazette.blocks[120][0] |
卓院長榮泰：報告委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[121][0] |
林委員思銘：又一直虧損、又一直補助。 |
| gazette.blocks[122][0] |
卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們的原意跟用意在如此，AI科技產業的高速發展，發展之後，政府國家建設必須要迎頭趕上，所以…… |
| gazette.blocks[123][0] |
林委員思銘：所以院長…… |
| gazette.blocks[124][0] |
卓院長榮泰：所以我們請一位AI專家來當我們的經濟部長，希望他能提出可行的方式…… |
| gazette.blocks[125][0] |
林委員思銘：我告訴你，院長跟部長…… |
| gazette.blocks[126][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是否可以容許部長來說明一下？ |
| gazette.blocks[127][0] |
林委員思銘：然後還有我們國發會的主委在還未上任前都說了實話，都希望核能要考慮來重啟，但是前幾天又說依照現行法令不能夠重啟。主委，您有提過喔，你不要跟我講你沒提過，你未上任前也提過核能是我們的選項之一喔，要考慮重啟，所以…… |
| gazette.blocks[128][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：報告委員，我可以很負責任的講，我當時並沒有講過這句話，我只是在講核能是一個低碳能源，但是它如果不能夠得到核廢料的最終貯存的話，它是無法被認定為綠能，但是我也講得很清楚，是有機會，但是目前歐盟並沒有同意它是一個綠能，所以對我們的企業在RE100是無法使用的。 |
| gazette.blocks[129][0] |
林委員思銘：你說歐盟並沒有認同它是一個綠能？因為我看到5月28號你對外表示你不排斥核能。 |
| gazette.blocks[130][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：當時我們是認定四個原則，第一個是新政府，我當時的講法是新政府和新國會的共識；第二個是安全必須無虞；第三個是法令；第四個是社會共識。我們是這四件事情，我對媒體講得很清楚的。 |
| gazette.blocks[131][0] |
林委員思銘：我想這一題我們講了很久了，主委或是部長，今天部長話講得比較少，部長，我給你講一下，對於核能這個議題，我們的能源未來面臨AI產業巨大的用電量，到底我們的能源政策要不要做調整？ |
| gazette.blocks[132][0] |
郭部長智輝：報告委員，以目前來看，我們現在擁有的發電能力是可以滿足到2028年這一段booming的狀況，但是如果在2028以後的部分，我想我們目前的狀況還是可以維持…… |
| gazette.blocks[133][0] |
林委員思銘：2028距離現在也只有4年啊！所以你要趕快提出來，要未雨綢繆啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[134][0] |
郭部長智輝：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[135][0] |
林委員思銘：你不能說4年後、2028年以後，我們的能源就缺了一大塊。 |
| gazette.blocks[136][0] |
郭部長智輝：我們現在其他的綠能機組，以目前的進度來看，是可以銜接到2030，所以如果在2025到2028這段期間因為AI的成長，我想我們可以在四、五年裡面建立新的供電能力。 |
| gazette.blocks[137][0] |
林委員思銘：所以你保證現在的能源政策不改變，在2030年前我們的能源絕對不會有缺口？ |
| gazette.blocks[138][0] |
郭部長智輝：以我們現在所擁有的供電機組跟將來要成立的供電機組，到2030年應該是可以滿足這個綠電的需求。 |
| gazette.blocks[139][0] |
林委員思銘：那您認為核能是不是乾淨的能源？ |
| gazette.blocks[140][0] |
郭部長智輝：核能，如果以歐盟他們的解釋，它是一個乾淨的能源。 |
| gazette.blocks[141][0] |
林委員思銘：是不是安全的能源？ |
| gazette.blocks[142][0] |
郭部長智輝：但是它不是綠能。 |
| gazette.blocks[143][0] |
林委員思銘：它不是綠能？ |
| gazette.blocks[144][0] |
郭部長智輝：它不是綠能。 |
| gazette.blocks[145][0] |
林委員思銘：好，這部分我到時候找相關數據到委員會再來問你。兩位部長可以先回座。 |
| gazette.blocks[145][1] |
最後一個問題要來請教院長，院長，我們的平面媒體「財訊」在520前調查了臺灣民眾對當今生活環境的滿意度和民怨，其中幾乎是跨越各族群共同的不滿意點就是高物價，這包含了我們對生活消費價格，還有居住正義的房屋價格，以及醫療、教育費用等整體高物價的感受。請問院長，端午節要到了，你知道現在一顆肉粽多少錢嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[146][0] |
卓院長榮泰：肉粽？ |
| gazette.blocks[147][0] |
林委員思銘：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[148][0] |
卓院長榮泰：看它的內餡是包什麼。 |
| gazette.blocks[149][0] |
林委員思銘：一顆肉粽要多少錢？ |
| gazette.blocks[150][0] |
卓院長榮泰：看它的內餡包什麼。 |
| gazette.blocks[151][0] |
林委員思銘：一般的。 |
| gazette.blocks[152][0] |
卓院長榮泰：從40塊到100塊都有。 |
| gazette.blocks[153][0] |
林委員思銘：一般店家的肉粽，一般價。 |
| gazette.blocks[154][0] |
卓院長榮泰：像昨天黃仁勳董事長去吃的，那個大概是50塊左右吧。 |
| gazette.blocks[155][0] |
林委員思銘：50塊？但是我告訴你，現在已經漲價了。 |
| gazette.blocks[156][0] |
卓院長榮泰：他昨天吃的。 |
| gazette.blocks[157][0] |
林委員思銘：50塊是陽春的。 |
| gazette.blocks[158][0] |
卓院長榮泰：對啊，要看內餡是什麼。 |
| gazette.blocks[159][0] |
林委員思銘：那是很陽春的，現在一般比較好吃一點的要七、八十塊啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[160][0] |
卓院長榮泰：有，100塊也有。 |
| gazette.blocks[161][0] |
林委員思銘：很多都要七、八十塊。 |
| gazette.blocks[162][0] |
卓院長榮泰：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[163][0] |
林委員思銘：也有業者表示今年肉粽一顆平均要漲5到12塊，所以民眾都哀號到快買不下手了，但我在院長的施政方針報告裡幾乎沒有看到你對民眾最痛的這一點有明顯的著墨。雖然說去年一整年的實質總薪資和經常性薪資雙雙呈現負成長，去年一整年的經常性薪資是負成長，實質總薪資更是7年來首度負成長，看到這種情況，院長，到底行政院要如何來解決通膨所帶來的人民痛苦？有沒有具體的政策？ |
| gazette.blocks[164][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們有觀察到今年的CPI還維持在可控的範圍內，但我們不以此為滿足，我們的財政政策曾經想用升息的方式，但是我覺得還是用提高薪資收入、穩定物價的生產計畫來…… |
| gazette.blocks[165][0] |
林委員思銘：院長，我想政府就如您現在說的，就說我們7年的平均經濟成長率、GDP是成長的，沾沾自喜，但是人民感受不到啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[166][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我沒有沾沾自喜，我們不以任何的數字為滿足。 |
| gazette.blocks[167][0] |
林委員思銘：所以希望您加油啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[168][0] |
卓院長榮泰：一起加油！ |
| gazette.blocks[169][0] |
林委員思銘：加油啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[170][0] |
卓院長榮泰：一起加油！ |
| gazette.blocks[171][0] |
林委員思銘：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[172][0] |
卓院長榮泰：謝謝林委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[173][0] |
主席：謝謝，謝謝林思銘委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[173][1] |
報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，謝謝卓院長、鄭副院長以及各部會首長列席答詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[173][2] |
現在作以下決定：另定期繼續進行施政方針報告之質詢。6月4日（星期二）上午9點繼續開會，進行討論事項。 |
| gazette.blocks[173][3] |
現在休息。 |
| gazette.blocks[173][4] |
休息（16時43分） |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
27 |
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院會-11-1-16 |
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韓國瑜 |
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1 |
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2024-05-31 |
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1135101 |
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立法院第11屆第1會期第16次會議紀錄 |
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報告事項 |
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謝謝韓院長有請我們行政院再請卓院長備詢並委員好卓院長好卓院長我想我繼續跟您討論國會改革的議題院長我們立法院國會改革的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
27.569 |
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50.815 |
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是一部讓陽光照進國會的一個法案讓行政、立法相互制衡監督共同謀求國家的改革進步所以此次的修法是立法院職權行使法以及刑法的相關修正院長您是否了解整個修法的內容?您了解嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
51.766 |
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65.327 |
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現在的階段我只能從報導上面來看到我還沒有看到正式的公文書我想早上您有回答副總召你表示說您還尚未收到議員的公文您不了解條文的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
66.55 |
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84.135 |
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只能從新聞報導的角度來瞭解。但是如果你不了解為何您這個還拜會我們的黨團或者拜會民眾黨黨團您第一時間或者民進黨黨團我們看到的您表示說您會在不了解條文內容的狀況下你就要提出復議 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
85.95 |
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107.182 |
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不能跟委員報告不能說是不了解條文的內容因為我看到的是許多的國人對這個過程認為程序是否完備是否侵害到人民的權利是否有違憲之餘是否有法律明確性的欠缺等等我都看到了國人這些疑慮那站在行政機關必須解決這些疑慮所以我會看到條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
108.183 |
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135.399 |
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公文來的時候,大院公文來文的時候,我們來對照到底程度以及影響層面是多大。那個院長我大概跟你講一下,我想我們這次修法是有五個重點。第一個是聽證調查權,另外是我們的藐視國會罪,還有總統的國情報告,還有加強我們的人事審查權,還有我們政府院長的記名投票,這五個改革的法案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
137.626 |
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152.916 |
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請問對這五個改革的法案哪一部分您認為你會自愛難行?您必須提出副意。我想委員跟我都同時有觀察到包括監察院也對於權力分立 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
154.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
177.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
提出了他們的看法那其他的剛剛我已經舉例過了那至於說院長、副院長的選擇當然就是純粹院內先進委員的選擇監察院已經提出他的看法我們必須要兼顧議法院擁有聽證調查權也是您說監察院有意見嘛那您自己也是同樣的一個意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
178.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
195.86 |
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我覺得人事同意權不要跟這些個調查權等等來混為一談提供資料那當然也是必須據實的提供資料但是院會跟委員會還是要有差別的調查權跟調閱權這個在質疑上以及在功能上是有不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
209.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
234.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
執政黨在過去在立法的各項程序的表現來我們看一下影片通過第四條有沒有意見?通過第五條有沒有意見?通過第六條有沒有意見?通過第七條有沒有意見?通過第八條有沒有意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
237.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
240.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
所以那個院長這是過去民進黨在這個前瞻基礎建設條例在審查的過程中您剛才有聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
259.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
279.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我們在這個審查的過程中在委員會委員有異議主席完全不理會就說通過通過通過這個叫程序正義嗎那我們這個法案經過了一次的專案報告三次的這個公聽會以及黨團的協商還有我們院長的協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
282.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
305.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
還有我們民進黨的委員發言也非常非常的多次數非常非常的多所以這是一個公開透明的一個立法一直污蔑說是程序不正義的立法黑箱的立法我想這對於我們整個立法院的所有委員我們覺得說這個是我們不能接受的 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
306.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
307.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
院長,我告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
327.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
340.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
你們的講法是說時空環境不一樣喔。不是,時代要進步。不只不一樣,我們要進步。時代要進步啊。所以時代要進步,陽光要照進國會啊。我說你們的邏輯在哪裡啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
344.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
369.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
在委員的標準裡面當初這個也是陽光啊但是那個陽光跟委員報告林佳龍部長特別講得很清楚他當初所說的是調閱權而不是調查權還是有程度不同還是在憲政體制下做適當的分野那是他講的啦我們在整個那個草案我們都看過甚至藐視國會這也是有刑罰還判比較重 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
371.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
400.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我想這個林佐水你們的這個過去民進黨的大佬他說10到30年的國會改革民進黨若繼續警報五權憲法將白白浪費進步的機會所以我們要隨著時代的進步嘛就是你剛才講的國會改革轟轟烈烈鬧了30年轟轟烈烈的鬧開了等了30年是好事 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
401.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
409.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
所以我真的不了解我想我這個進到國會我是第二屆過去我沒有參與但是我覺得這麼好的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
410.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
435.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
立法的一個改革國會的改革法案讓國會能夠親民讓國會能夠問政更有監督制衡的力量讓我們的行政部門未來更有效能更能連能執政這麼好的一個法案相互制衡監督的一個法案完全符合三權分立的原則為什麼民進黨你們要抗拒改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
437.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
461.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
跟委員報告沒有抗竣改革我覺得我們當然必須制衡監督這是必要的院長我想我因為您說要復議要提休閒我們現在就來審視一下法條了院長您知道國會聽證調查權調查的範圍是什麼請委員明示我這個法條翻頁看一遭三讀後通過的45條 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
465.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
494.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
對相關社調查專案小組他是對相關議案或立法委員職權行使相關的事項行使調查權及調閱權所以是限定在對相關議案或立法委員職權相關的事項所以他是在立法院我們的立法委員行使職權對於特定的議案我們認為有弊端我們要去加以調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
495.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
519.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
不是漫無範圍的、漫無邊距的去加以調查。議員報告外界有200位法律學者也提出對於內容法律的明確性是不是不足。這一點都值得我們深思。我想當然有法律學者有200位有這種看法我們尊重。但是有更多的法律學者看法是不一樣的。我也會一併的重視。我要明確的告訴你。 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
519.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
536.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
更多的意見我也會一併的重視跟考量正反意見都有啦但是我要告訴你說我們立法委員絕對是遵守憲法的一個分級不會去亂立法啦不是你們講的好像我們蠻無理啦要特別告訴你所以我要看法條嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
537.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
565.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
議案這個一定是調查範圍有一定的範圍我舉例比如說就是光電弊案查雞蛋弊案查疫苗採購弊案查快篩的弊案查NCC讓進電視上架的一個弊案都是查這些特定議題的立法委員在行使職權在質詢的時候的一些特定的議題的有關的一個職權上行使的一個事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
566.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
591.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
容許跟委員報告剛剛那幾個案子司法檢調機關該調查都一定會調查這個就是談到權力分立的問題剛剛委員有提到說我國是三權分立這個我不敢糾正但是我們應該不是現在就是三權分立我們還有司法權還有監察權另外調查的對象一47條請院長看一下47條 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
595.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
609.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
調查委員或調查專案小組未行使調查權得要求政府機關部隊法人團體或社會上有關係的人員。這個是照抄我們林佳龍部長的一個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
610.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
628.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
所以是講人啊,人民啊。因為現在被散播謠言啊,散播不實訊息啊,說一般我們的老百姓也會被調來啊。但是我們條文寫得很清楚啊,是你要跟這特定議案有關係,社會上有關係的人員啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
629.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
658.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
才會被邀請來做評審。如果你願意我可以請林佳龍部長來提示一下。不用,您回答就可以。我現在條文就給你看了嘛。對象事實相同,行為不一定一樣。一定是政府人員及社會上有關係的人員。另外就我們所謂的反質詢的部分。反質詢的部分依照我們新修正的職權新施法, |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
659.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
682.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
就是我們質詢的答覆不得超過質詢的範圍之外,並不得反質詢。被質詢人為避免國防外交明顯立即之危害或依法因秘密之事項並經主席同意者外,不得拒絕答覆。也就是做國防外交或者因秘密的事項,他是可以拒絕答覆的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
683.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
712.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
並不是外界傳了什麼可以把國防秘密、外交秘密也會到這個聽證會或者調查的時候一定要揭露。這是我相關的一個...跟委員報告,好像這個認定的標準很低啊。OK,這個我們都很明確,這個法律條很明確啊。這沒有所謂什麼不明確的啊。所以,這個我在這裡我要就教就教我們在座所有的各位部長。我想今天所有的部長都到了嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
713.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
715.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
基於我上述講的我們還有一個就是說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
718.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
746.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我們的官員到立法院來接受質詢不得拒絕答覆拒絕提供資料隱匿資訊虛偽答覆或有其他藐視國會的行為這個是就反質詢或者是說說謊拒絕答覆或者隱匿這個條文是這樣規定如果說經主席制止或者主席要求答覆卻仍違反者 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
747.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
770.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那麼經過我們出席委員五人以上的連署或附議,繼經院會決議,會處備質詢人兩萬元以上、二十萬元以下的罰款。所以我就叫在座的各位部長,我剛才講的這個有關於反質詢或者虛偽陳述的部分,各位部長請教一下,待會大家舉手。 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
771.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
798.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
您會不會擔心未來到不管是院會或者委員會來質詢您會不會擔心因為自己做反質詢或者虛偽陳述而受到相當的一個處罰我這樣反過來問您不會擔心的請舉手報告委員我們不用舉手來代表因為舉手沒有聲音留不下記錄我可以代表我們部會首長來回答說謊 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
800.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
824.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
是政治人物的自殺是人格的自殺我們絕對不會用虛偽陳述所以你根本不用擔心嘛我想在座的所有部會首長不用擔心機密的認定請容許行政機關有機密認定自我保護保護國家的這當然之理也請相信我們所有的立法會會謹守這樣的一個分際不可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
828.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
828.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
不要說謊 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
848.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
850.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我還是要看到全部的來文之後,比照各方的意見。 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
871.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
872.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我也期許您在詳細閱讀各項條文之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
886.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
904.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
能夠做出正確的判斷好接下來我還是關心能源政策的問題我想關於能源的政策我們從臺電的發電成本來看全年發電成本最低年的是核能核能發熱度電是1.39元燃氣是3.44燃煤是3.443燃油是7塊半 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
910.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
910.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
所以請問﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
939.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
939.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
請部長來署名 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
951.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
959.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
所以這個院長部長你們有信心就是你的即便這個河山廠的1號機除役還是購電嗎?你的回答是這樣,好我再請教。 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
977.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
997.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
歐美日這些世界先進的國家工業大國都在重啟核電現在進行是在他們的機器公報中也認為核電是乾淨安全的能源但我心中就一個很好奇為什麼我們的政府寧願捨棄便宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1001.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1008.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
報告委員這樣的表格跟這樣的順序表面上是如此沒有錯但是他背後代表核能廢料的處理那個的代價是相當相當龐大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1030.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1045.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
議員長：議員長： |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1046.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1061.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
到一直到現在已經幾年了到現在還對於核能安全的儲存您還說有疑慮有疑慮為什麼世界這些先進國家繼續要用乾淨的核能來作為他們現在用電的最大選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1063.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1085.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
而且現在多少的核能專家任務,核能是最安全的用電而且核能的儲存也可以用最先進的這些設備來去克服為什麼我國就不願意去就相關安全設備的研發來繼續做努力讓核能發揮到最大的效益 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1086.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1113.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
跟委員報告合一合二甚至那個沒有蓋層的合適他所可能產生的核廢的處理我跟侯友宜市長一樣的關切他跟我一樣到目前為止還是要列在最優先的考量所以這個不是黨派的問題不是反核擁核的問題是面對環境共同的問題議長核廢料的問題是可以克服的你現在還在堅持說不能克服 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1115.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1115.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我會再去請教侯友宜市長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1137.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1155.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
一定要來做相關的一個研究好不好是的 謝謝委員這樣你才能夠講清楚啊我是今天才聽你講過去不管是我們王美花經濟部長他就這個議題都沒有講得很清楚他只認為我們就是非核家園我的神主牌我就是要去貫徹我就是要去執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1156.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1184.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
部長曾經講過核能安全、核廢的處理跟社會的共識,這個就是我們大家目前的態度。我們還是要去看世界各國對核能的一個使用的一個看法。我台灣是要跟得上世界的潮流,不要再自己閉門造局,這樣不會進步。院長,那我們看到因為你現在要貫徹這個非核家園這樣的一個政策,造成怎麼樣的一個結果? |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1185.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1191.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
臺電虧損嚴重一直虧損然後我們的電價一直上漲臺電我們就靠補助電價又認為這個太便宜了一直講電價太便宜了所以要上漲電價上漲造成我們的物價上漲通膨問題就來了就越來越嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1211.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1224.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
同樣的答覆啊。如果核能的發電持續的增加,那我們是承受不起。明年我們的電價會不會持續上漲?我們今年已經有過一次調整。我請你回答兩個議題。一個電價會不會上漲?還有台電會不會持續虧損? |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1233.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1259.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
第一個我們現在今年已經有逐步的調整電價那麼現在經過大院希望能夠來通過我們的追加預算對台電的財務做適當的補貼至明年的問題我們全力的來管控如果沒有特別重大的國際事件沒有特別影響的能源發展問題的話那我們盡量來管控以不增加人民的負擔不增加產業的負擔做我們的前提考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1259.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1272.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
所以你現在執行的能源政策你保證我再接下一個問題你保證臺電絕對不會再虧損你要扣除政府的補助不要靠政府的補助這也是人民的納稅錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1273.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1293.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
但是政府的補助就是降低所有人的負擔政府適當的補助就是降低人民的負擔所以這個是一個惡意的螺旋所以我想請教你的是說如果台電不虧損那現在是不是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1294.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1306.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我們跟其他國家的電價比較起來我們是偏低的。所以我們不考慮用提高電價來讓台電的不虧損。違背您過去的承諾就是民進黨過去執政是講說我們絕對不會去漲電價。蔡總統講說我們絕對不會大幅度的調整電價。但是你現在告訴我說你要漲電價讓台電不虧損。 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1317.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1331.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我沒有這樣說。我說我們跟世界跟國比較起來,我們電價偏低了。但是我們現在不會決定用漲電價來增加人民的負擔。我們用政府的補貼來穩定電價。我們用政府的補貼來穩定電價。看狀況的發生。年年虧損是什麼造成的,如果聽你這樣的邏輯。你每年都要用政府來補助。 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1346.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1349.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
所以我們電價,電價要不要調整,我們是經過整理抹灰啊。我們的經濟部長,他有經營產業,有經營企業的經驗。 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1370.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1381.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
目前我們的綠能發電是有一定的進展,但是覺得還不夠,所以要再加速進行。所以在穩定供電的情況之下,全面發展綠能是政府的政策。 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1386.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1411.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
台電的財務狀況政府會持續的來關注我們不會用漲電價增加人民負擔的方式讓台電不虧損這個二一螺旋一直都在上升每年重複不斷的看到這個問題現在最重要的問題來了AI產業我想現在是目前我想包安院長您的政策也是認為AI是現在我國最重要的產業政策之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1412.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1436.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
但是我們看到說AI的模型規模不斷的擴大它需要消耗的電力更大所以如果我們這個能源政策這個電沒有趕快來補足的話當核電已經沒有的時候你說你要用太陽能關電或者用什麼燃煤或者用這個燃油 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1438.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1464.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
來這個做填補我想這個都是違背世界的趨勢也造成我們的整個我們的溫室效應以及我們這個排炭進行排蛋的一個進程可能會2050年沒有辦法達成這種種的效益就來了所以你要發展AI產業你的能源政策你又不能夠去做調整那到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1465.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1477.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
院長,你們的能源政策到目前我真的看不懂。到底邏輯在哪裡,又一直虧損,又一直輔助。我們的原意跟用意在如此。 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1477.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1482.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
國發會的主委在還未上任前都說了實話都希望這個核能要考慮來重啟但是前幾天又說不會依照現行的法令不能夠重啟 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1506.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1517.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那主委也講說核能 主委你有提過喔你不要跟我講你現在沒提過你過去會議上任前你也提過說核能是我們的選項之一喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
1519.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
1536.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
報告委員我可以很負責任的講我當時並沒有講這句話我只是在講核能是一個低碳能源但是他如果不能夠得到核廢料的最終儲存的話他是無法被認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
1537.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
1540.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
說歐盟並沒有認同他是一個綠能。因為我看你寫說你5月28號你對外表示你不排斥核能。 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
1556.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
1578.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我當時我們是認定四個原則第一個是新政府我當時講法是新政府跟新國會的共識第二個是安全必須無疑於第三個是法令第四個是社會共識我們這四件事我的媒體我是講得很清楚的主委或者部長今天部長話講的比較少 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
1580.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
1592.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
您認為對核能這個議題,我們的能源如果要未來面臨AI這個產業巨大的一個用電量,到底我們的能源政策要不要做調整? |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
1594.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
1594.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
報告委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
1626.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
1639.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
我們現在其他的綠能的基礎以目前的進度來看是可以銜接到2030所以如果在2025到2028這段期間因為AI的成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
1642.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
1646.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
您認為核能是不是乾淨的能源?核能如果以這個歐盟他們的解釋他是一個乾淨的能源 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
1672.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
1675.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
是不是安全的能源但是他不是綠能 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
1677.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
1704.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
他不是綠能?他不是綠能。好,這部分我想我到時候找相關的書記,我到委員會再來問你。好,那請兩位部長先回座。那最後一個問題來請教院長。那院長我們在平面媒體這個財訊在520前調查了臺灣民眾對當今生活環境的滿意度還有民怨,其中幾乎是跨越各族群的共同的不滿一點,就是高物價。 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
1705.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
1721.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
這包含了我們生活的消費價格還有我們的居住正義的房屋價格以及醫療教育費用等整體高物價的這樣的一個感受所以我請問院長端午節要到了你知道現在一顆肉種要多少錢嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
1722.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
1750.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
肉粽看它內餡是包什麼看它內餡包什麼從40塊到100塊都有一般店家的肉粽一般價像昨天黃仁勳董事長去吃的那個大概是50塊左右吧50塊但是我告訴你現在已經漲價了50塊是陽春的對啊內餡是什麼那是很陽春的現在一般要比較好吃一點的要7、80塊有100塊也有都要7、80塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
1753.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
1775.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
所以也有業者表示今年肉中一顆平均要漲5到12塊所以民眾都哀嚎到快買不下手了但是我在院長的施政方針報告中幾乎沒有看到院長就這一塊民眾最痛的點有明顯的琢磨那雖然說去年一整年的實質經常是薪資實質總薪資雙雙呈現這個是負成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
1783.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
1786.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
我們有觀察到今年的CPI還維持在我們可控的範圍內但我們不以此為滿足 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
1811.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
1811.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
謝謝林思銘委員的質詢 |