| IVOD_ID |
153215 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153215 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-23-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-29T10:14:11+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-29T10:23:29+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:09:18 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331eda08ef201fb49a56bfa9387d0b459bd333bc5d453e1b1951b33c046150ad1425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
蔡其昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:14:11 - 10:23:29 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。
【5月27日及29日二天一次會】） |
| gazette.lineno |
220 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
蔡委員其昌：（10時14分）主席，請陳主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請陳主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
陳主任委員金德：蔡委員早。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
蔡委員其昌：主委早。今天就教主委，這幾年因為原物料上漲、人力短缺問題，所以我看減項發包問題愈來愈嚴重。以本席所在的臺中來講，我看到新聞也報導了嘛！「原物料上漲、市府減項發包成為常態」，臺北市魚果市場在前柯市長時減項發包在議會裡面也被批評。對於減項發包，本席一直覺得，如果我們面臨的是原物料波動當年度，也就是說預算已經編列好了，結果今年這一整年當中原物料大漲，但原物料大漲一定在一個期間內。簡單來講，原物料的波動在一年的時間內漲幅達到滿足的程度，接著就會進入盤整的狀態，不會連續好幾年都是一路噴出，以原物料的上漲來說不可能嘛！可是我發現減項發包並不是在原物料噴漲的那一年、那一個時間點的預算年度出現問題，而是現在看起來愈來愈嚴重。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][1] |
本席長期幫忙孩子爭取教育相關設施，從校舍、禮堂到操場等等，本席為臺中的孩子爭取這些，我以臺中市政府來舉例就好，看看減項發包這個問題有多嚴重。早期我們面對減項發包常常是什麼？是整個建築物的主結構完全蓋好，那減什麼？減裡面的課桌椅。也就是說，整個完整房舍要蓋幾樓都蓋好了，至於裡面學生要用的課桌椅等可移動式擺件，我們最後再爭取相關內部設備。現在呢？已經改成什麼？現在沒有這樣改了。本席最近去看了一項工程，是大甲國中──那也是我們爭取的。大甲國中的案子很簡單，原來是要蓋打手球的手球館。可是政府現在已經沒有手球館項目，所以學校裡面稱為活動中心，而臺中市政府依規定，針對活動中心，有多少學生，活動中心的面積就是多大，所以市政府教育局就編列給學校活動中心的預算。可是大甲國中手球隊非常有名，是手球的搖籃，結果空間太小，必須就既有、市政府補助的活動中心範圍擴大才能打手球。所以我們就協調體育署，公文來來往往再加上協調會，忙了將近一年啦！好不容易透過中央體育署、國教署與臺中市教育局把手球館跟活動中心合而為一。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][2] |
本席搞了一年，原本認為這件事情已經處理完畢，臺中市政府發包。結果發包完之後學校又來陳情，為什麼？因為只發包活動中心的主結構，只蓋一半。什麼叫蓋一半？譬如說沒有門，發包項目裡面沒有門啦！沒有門要怎麼辦？我只好把體育署、國教署、臺中市教育局再找來協調，詢問現在快蓋好了卻沒門，要怎麼辦？體育署就回答本席：「報告委員，我們體育署只補助體育設施，沒有在補助門的。」沒辦法補助門嘛！如果是蓋手球館，一開始發包的時候怎麼可能讓手球館沒有門？所以放在手球館這個項目下興建的時候，門沒有問題啦！但是先把其他部分都蓋好才來爭取門，體育署說門不屬於體育設施！我不是罵體育署啦！體育署沒有錯啊！以它的預算科目來講，這時候只做門，怎麼算體育設施？但地點是手球館啊！所以本席只好再請教育部潘部長出面協調市政府要出多少、中央的體育署跟國教署要分別出多少，這筆錢在預算科目裡誰可以出。我只是舉這個例子給主委聽，這就是減項發包的結果！臺中市政府的減項發包，我看照市議會講的，已經變成常態了。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][3] |
我再講順天案。那是什麼？現在的活動中心可以減項發包到什麼程度？四面圍牆蓋起來，沒有屋頂，這樣也可以發包！就是用討來的錢先把圍牆蓋起來。這筆錢也是本席討的啊！本席向中央爭取，補助臺中市政府啊！然後圍牆、四面牆壁蓋了、已經發包出去了，校長卻來跟我說「委員，拜託，第二階段爭取屋頂。」這樣也能減項發包欸！以後蓋一根柱子就可以了啦！若是要建什麼，就先把柱子蓋起來。臺北市也是這樣被市議會批評啊！原本樓層要蓋到八樓的，透過減項發包減掉其中幾項之後，讓樓層下降。但這是定案嗎？不是定案。未來蓋好之後，可能還要增加，不能不同意它蓋啊！但這樣在監督上就會有問題啦！也就是說，以後若先把一根柱子蓋好了，要是不給補助，就會變成蚊子館、變成蚊子柱子！蓋一根柱子在那裡幹嘛？這裡面衍生很多、很多爭議、問題，很多監督的程序都會被破壞掉。所以本席認為減項發包已經到了亂無章法、已經到了荒謬誇張的地步。所以本席也做了一項臨時提案，希望工程會好好地來管理。主委，你的看法呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
陳主任委員金德：謝謝蔡委員。的確，針對原物料的調整有物調的機制，也可以透過計畫修正的方式解決，比較不鼓勵透過減項發包來處理。對於減項發包，發包機關仍然有核定者以及需要決定這樣減項發包的機制，如果減項發包會導致原來的功能不在，那已經要透過修正計畫才行，而不是減項了。所以我們非常佩服蔡委員的高見，會全力改善整個在其他機關發包過程中所產生的問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
蔡委員其昌：OK。主委要管理啦！這不管理不行，亂象叢生啦！減項發包已經運用到這個程度，以後縣市首長可不可以在卸任之前把所有重要工程都發包出去，但每一樣都減項發包？反正下一任不是他嘛！叫下一任出來負責就好了。假設每一樣都發包出去，下一任卻不願意接，他還可以說「你看，你很無能，我已經開始蓋了，看看你這個下一任市長多無能。我都有辦法發包出去、也開始蓋了，結果你接不起來。」這就徒生爭議嘛！也徒生很多在民主國家、民主社會裡不合理的現象嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[5][1] |
對於減項發包，本席不是……很多事情沒有辦法啦！不一定是原物料上漲，也不一定是缺工的問題才導致可能面臨減項發包。本席不是說減項發包不好，但是減項發包不可以像臺灣現在這樣，已經浮濫、氾濫到這個程度，所以我希望工程會能夠好好地來管理跟監督所有中央政府與地方政府的工程。謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
主席：好，謝謝。蔡委員發言完畢。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][1] |
現在先處理臨時提案，本日計有1案，請議事人員宣讀。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][2] |
由於近幾年原物料價格波動浮動較大，且人力短缺，越來越多機關以「減項發包」的方式辦理工程採購，但卻常減掉主要功能，影響工程品質及功能需求，造成完工卻無法使用的荒謬狀況。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][3] |
鑒於減項發包嚴重影響工程品質、非常態的追加預算易生弊端，且更造成公共建設延宕，爰此，建請公共工程委員會應將減項發包納入列管，了解各機關減項發包原因並提供因應對策，避免減項發包情況過於浮濫。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][4] |
提案人：蔡其昌 陳素月 林俊憲 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
306 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-23-14 |
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李昆澤 |
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林沛祥 |
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林俊憲 |
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陳素月 |
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林國成 |
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徐富癸 |
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魯明哲 |
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蔡其昌 |
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何欣純 |
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許智傑 |
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邱若華 |
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游顥 |
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李柏毅 |
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黃國昌 |
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洪孟楷 |
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陳雪生 |
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黃健豪 |
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王美惠 |
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廖先翔 |
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267 |
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2024-05-29 |
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立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢 |
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主席請陳主委請陳主委蔡委員早主委早今天就叫主委這個這幾年因為這個原物料上漲這個人力短缺的問題所以我看這個減向發包的問題是越來越嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
33.513 |
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53.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
那以本席臺中來講我看這個新聞報導也報導了嘛原物料上漲市府檢向發包成為常態那這個臺北市啊這個漁果市場啊這個前科市長檢向發包也在議會裡面也被批評 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
55.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
75.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
剪相發包本席一直覺得如果我們面臨的是原物料波動的當年度也就是說我們已經預算編列好了但是今年這一整年當中原物料大漲但是原物料大漲一定在一個期間內就簡單講說原物料的波動在 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
79.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
106.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
一年的時間內漲幅到一個滿足的程度接著他就進入了盤整的狀態他不會連續好幾年他都是一路這個噴出啊原物料上漲不可能嘛可是呢我發現這個減項發包啊並不是在原物料噴漲的那一年那一個時間點出現預算年度出現問題而是現在看起來就是越來越嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
108.496 |
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129.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
本席長期在幫忙孩子爭取教育相關的設施從校舍、禮堂、操場等等本席為我們台中的孩子在爭取這些事情那我以台中市政府來舉例就好看這個檢像發包的問題有多嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
131.516 |
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158.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
早期我們面對檢像發包常常是什麼是整個建築物的主結構完全蓋好那檢什麼檢裡面的客桌椅也就是說整個環境要蓋幾樓都蓋好了連裡面這個學生用的客桌椅啦這個可移動式的這些擺件最後我們再來爭取相關內部設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
161.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
182.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那現在呢已經改什麼沒有這樣改本席最近去看了一個工程那個我們大甲國中的那個也是我們去爭取大甲國中的案子很簡單大甲國中的案子呢他是一個原來的手球的手球館可是呢政府現在已經沒有手球館所以政府就學校裡面叫活動中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
182.93 |
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201.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
台中市政府依規定活動中心多少學生活動中心的面積就是多大所以呢市政府的教育局他就編列給你這個活動中心的預算可是要蓋手原來學生在大甲國中手球隊非常有名是我們手球的這個這個搖籃 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
204.173 |
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230.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
結果呢他這個空間就太小他必須要在既有市政府補助的活動中心的範圍把它擴大才能打手球所以呢我們就協調體育署哇這個公文往往來來往往再加上協調會不必整年啦這好不容易跟手球館跟活動中心透過中央體育署國教署台中市教育局合而為一 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
231.567 |
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250.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
好了本市搞了一年認為這件事已經處理完結果臺中市政府發包他發包完之後學校又來陳情了為什麼因為他只發包活動中心的主結構只起一半什麼叫起一半譬如說沒門發包項目裡面沒門 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
260.282 |
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275.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我只好把體育署、國教署、臺中市教育局再找來協調。說阿現在企業要好阿沒問題要怎樣。體育署就回答本席說報告委員我們體育署只補助體育設施沒有再補助門的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
278.933 |
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300.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
302.165 |
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331.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我不是罵體育署啦我只是在講說體育署沒有錯啊他在以他的預算科目來講這時你只要做問這哪個體育設施但是他是手球館啊所以呢本時只好再請教育部潘部長出面來協調說好那這間市政府你要出多少中央的體育署跟國教署你要分別出多少這條集在預算科目裡面想可以出我只是舉這個例子給主委聽啦這個就是減相發包的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
332.925 |
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347.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
臺中市政府的檢像發包我看這個市議會講已經變成了常態啦好我再講一個順天那是什麼現在活動中心也可以檢像發包到什麼程度?四面圍牆蓋起來沒有屋頂這樣也可以發包對不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
352.659 |
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353.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
發言委員：陳金德列席報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
382.912 |
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412.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
他把樓層要蓋八樓的其中減項八包減掉幾項之後樓層讓他下降這是定案嗎?不是定案未來蓋好之後他可能要再蓋起來你不能不蓋啊在監督上面就會有問題啦就是說以後呢他先把一根柱子蓋好了你不給他補柱你不給他補柱他就變成蚊子管嘛變成蚊子柱子 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
413.387 |
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416.55 |
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主委本席也做了一個臨時提案希望工程會好好地來管理你的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
444.956 |
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458.527 |
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謝謝蔡委員的確是原物料的調整有物調的機制那也可以透過計畫修正的方式來解決那麼比較不鼓勵透過檢像發包來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
461.149 |
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488.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那檢向發包機關他仍然有核定者有核定的需要核定決定這樣檢向發包的機制那如果是檢向發包把你原來的功能已經不在了那個已經是要透過修正計畫採取的不是檢向了所以我們非常佩服蔡委員的這個高見那我們會全力來改善這樣的一個整個在其他機關發包過程中所產生的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
488.983 |
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517.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
OK 主要要慣例啦 這沒慣例不知道 這個亂象重生啦 這個已經到發包運用到這個程度 那以後縣市首長可不可以在卸任之前他就把所有重大工程都發包出去 然後每一樣都檢向發包 反正下一任不是他嘛 他就叫後一任出來負責就好了 他每天都去 都自己發包出去 你如果後輩沒得接 他就說你看你很無能 我就已經起碰了 你後一任的市長你看我無能 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
518.089 |
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519.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
委員會主席發言委員會主席發言委員會主席發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
533.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
558.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
謝謝 |