| IVOD_ID |
153212 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153212 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
27 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-29T10:24:13+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-29T10:35:49+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:36 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331db21c865c780fdf8db3ca66b34e87331333bc5d453e1b195c20b7cb045a4d1385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
謝龍介 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:24:13 - 10:35:49 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「強化社會安全網─暫行安置與監護處分制度及執行機構場域安全之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| gazette.lineno |
434 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
謝委員龍介：（10時24分）主席，我請部長跟警政署。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：麻煩部長還有警政署代表。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
謝委員龍介：部長好，早安。我在這裡先跟清德兄呼籲一下，馬英九當了8年總統，他沒有對在野黨做政治偵防。當時我在中常會跟他說，總統你如果做這個事情對臺灣是很大的傷害。他說他保證絕對不會對在野黨做政治偵防，我說這樣最好，因為你今天可以對在野黨做政治偵防，相對的你就可以對黨內的同志，跟你意見不一樣甚至還是不一樣的派系，你也是一樣會做政治偵防，是不是這樣？所以國民黨執政8年完全沒有對民進黨做所謂的政治偵防。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][1] |
那麼到了民進黨執政之後，前4年2019年你的好朋友，我們的清德兄，在2019年的3月18日挑戰蔡英文登記總統初選。我要跟所有的公務人員講，這很重要也很可惡，清德兄當時說：「請總統不要用國家的機器對付我，請總統不要再用網軍對付我。」這句話我聽了心裡很難過，因為在他初選之後我拿到資料，我為什麼要請警政署出來？現今因政治而在通訊裡面去監控人民，這是非常可怕的。賴清德現在深受其害，如果你今天繼續用這個手段來對付臺灣人，對付在野黨，甚至控制公務人員，這是非常惡質的思想。為什麼呢？因為在2019年賴清德3月18日挑戰蔡英文的時候，他的民調是贏蔡總統26%至28%。初選登記後45天就要比賽，結果一延再延，就算讓你延兩次也不可能在兩個半月內逆轉。這26%的支持度用什麼逆轉？因為中間所做的民調，就是每一次集會……我請問警政署這位同仁，你有沒有待過刑事局？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
范副組長織坤：沒有。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
謝委員龍介：沒有？你不曾待過刑事局。這套通訊系統是我們打擊犯罪在抓通緝犯時用的，第一套是在刑事局採用的，所以只要歹徒帶著手機，很快的我們就可以監控他的行蹤。國安單位看到韓國瑜在板橋舉辦活動，現場有18萬的群眾進入這個基地台範圍之後，從MSC出去，出去之後轉換一個基地台。一個基地台的覆蓋範圍若是3公里，設定譬如說12分鐘，這樣你在這個基地台停留15分鐘以上表示你有來參加這個活動，他們是這樣控制的。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][1] |
現在民進黨在轉移焦點，他說沒有啦！新北市在辦活動時也有使用。新北市辦大型的活動或者是國家的燈會，只是利用這樣來統計人數，但這個不是！他們的活動已經是針對手機了。我當初登記的手機不是我個人的名字，因此會以為為什麼有一個80歲的老人來這裡？其實那是登記我媽媽的名字。所以不管男性、女性及年紀，所登記的戶籍在哪裡都有，這是國安單位嚴重介入！警政署原本就有這個作業，但是不是可以調查到這樣我們不知道。這種大數據的分析，還有民調過程裡有很多黑暗的東西，使得當今的賴總統清德兄深受其害。如果今天民進黨的政策會敢把這些大數據公佈出來，部長你不覺得臺灣的前途堪憂嗎？所以問題不在合法不合法，這是絕對不合法！絕對不合法！警政署應該很清楚，我們在抓通緝犯用這套系統，當時國安局有一位胡為真，最後到國安單位，他是判讀數據的高手。現在每一場大型活動，公務人員的手機有進來停留15分鐘以上、停留30分鐘以上、停留45分鐘以上都一清二楚，這可以做政治偵防，所以這是一個很嚴肅的課題。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][2] |
部長，我要跟你說的是，關於這種問題你不能有也好沒也好，要很嚴肅面對，若有機會總統問你的時候你要跟他說，謝龍介說你過去深受其害，內部怎麼有人可以去公告這個數字？你記得嗎？我之前在媒體上說，在分析這些事情的時候很多人跟我說不可能啦，哪有這種事情？一直到疫情大爆發，針對萬華一次發出60萬通的簡訊，你記得嗎？那個時候人家才跟我說，龍介你說得對，因為有些事情本來就不便在檯面上說。為什麼會知道什麼人曾去過萬華？那60萬通的簡訊怎麼發出來的？數據本來就在，國安單位要拿隨時可以拿，但是你不應該拿出來做政治用途，這非常惡質。警政署代表請回。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][3] |
部長，我上次來，但上禮拜你沒來，我有提到詐騙匯款的問題。金管會跟你們次長有來，但那天不是黃次長，不知道金管會有沒有跟你們會同研議？也就是匯款要有冷靜期，因為有人被騙了，所以大家要匯款都很謹慎。但即使我們勸他，親人勸他、警察也勸他，他都說你們不懂啦！等到200萬元匯出去之後，他才開始想問問女兒或其他人，問了才知道可能被騙了。所以我提出匯款之後要有2小時或者是多久時間的冷靜期，金管會說要會同你們，大家重新來這裡做報告。他們有沒有跟你們開會討論？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：委員提的這個意見是屬於金管會主政的業務，這部分…… |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
謝委員龍介：是啊！但打擊犯罪的是你們，因為你們要提供一些辦案數據以及幾小時或是多少金額的數據出來，不要妨礙到金融秩序，在這樣的情形下法才能完美，而且還可以減少詐騙案件。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：因為這牽扯到金融秩序的問題，我們還是尊重金管會的…… |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
謝委員龍介：我知道啦！你要提供詐騙的金額大概是多少？不然企業家趕著籌錢、要軋支票，有的沒的，金管會不能用這個當理由！所以要定出多少時間為冷靜期，才不會妨礙到商業秩序、金融秩序，然後可以幫助我們打擊犯罪、防止詐騙。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：我了解。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
謝委員龍介：我是說他們說要重新來報告，要找你們研議，我現在問的是他們有沒有和你們研議？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：目前還沒有。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
謝委員龍介：這部分你們要主動，因為針對犯罪的形態、內容、模式你們比較清楚，他們比較不清楚；但是針對金融跟商業的部分他們比較清楚，我們比較不清楚。所以這就是跨部會業務，你們一定要磨合之後來跟本會重新討論，這很重要﹗因為我提出之後，各方的意見都覺得匯款出去之後應該有2小時、3小時，還是1小時的冷靜期，對方才可以去領錢。因為很多人是錢匯了就反悔了，即使報案也來不及了。我這樣說你聽懂了嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：我清楚，有關冷靜期的部分，我們會跟金管會反映委員的寶貴意見。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
謝委員龍介：這部分拜託你提醒他一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
謝委員龍介：好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
主席：好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[18][1] |
下一位我們請陳俊宇委員發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
148 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-36-27 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
吳宗憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
莊瑞雄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
沈發惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
羅智強 |
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謝龍介 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
林思銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
吳思瑤 |
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翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
109 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-05-29 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1135301 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1135301_00004 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「強化社會安全網─ 暫行安
置與監護處分制度及執行機構場域安全之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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主席,我請保證及警政署麻煩部長,還有警政署代表保證好,給我站我是在這裡先把清廳保育一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
42.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
51.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
馬英九做被當的總統﹐他沒有對於在野黨做境地驚鴻﹐當然我在中相會跟他說﹐總統你如果做這個事情﹐是對台灣很大的傷害﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
56.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
73.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
他說他保證他絕對不會對在野黨做政體金融我說這樣最好因為你今天可以對在野黨做政體金融相對你就可以對東來的同志跟你意見不一樣甚至他還是不一樣的派系你還是一樣的做這個政體金融是不是這樣所以北黨國民黨的執政完全不去對著民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
85.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
107.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
來做所謂的全體進行那麼到了民進黨執政之後前四年李鴻一九年你的好朋友我們的情人在三月十八李鴻一九年的三月十八挑戰蔡英文定居總統初選我要跟我們的國務委員說這很重要也很誇張 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
116.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
120.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
聖殿下你當時是說什麼?請總統不能用國家的機器對付我請總統不能再用盟軍對付我這句話我聽起來很難聽因為在他初選後的後面我拿到的資料我為什麼要請經濟事務出來搞到 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
147.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
149.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
今天所有的在政體通信裡面可以去監控人民這是非常可怕如果今天你繼續用這個手段來對付台灣人、對付在野黨甚至控制公務人員這是非常惡劣的訴訟為什麼呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
178.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
188.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
因為在19年大清朝三月十八挑戰蔡英文的時候她的民調是贏蔡總統26%至28%初選定期是45天就要比賽了結果一年再年給你年兩倍也不可能在兩個半月內逆轉這26%的支持度用什麼逆轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
209.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
215.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
因為中間的所作的民調．他就是所有每一次執法．我請問經濟事務局的董林．你覺得大過的刑事局．沒有．你不罰．不罰．一套通信系統是我們的當局犯罪．在立法院執法的時候．刑事局是第一套．在刑事局採用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
239.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
248.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
所以只要你若是台獨提到手機﹖很快我們就能監控他的行動那麼這國安單位呢﹖夠我看到﹖在半截韓國禄舉辦一個活動﹖現場有十八萬的群眾﹖設立﹖進入這個基地大樓﹖對MSC處理﹖入來告處理﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
268.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
285.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
出獄後轉換一個基地台這個基地台合間的範圍如果是3公里如果這樣它的設定 譬如說12分鐘例如在這個基地台停留15分鐘以上標示 例如來參加這個活動他們是這樣控制的所以民進黨在轉移焦點 他說我沒有啊 這新北市在辦活動也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
296.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
309.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
新北市市,我們辦大型的活動,其實是說國家的經費是利用這樣,在覺得說有很多人,統計人數,他這不是,他這活動已經針對你手機了,我同時是經費的手機了,不是我個人的名字了,所以說,喔,這手機現在有一個80歲的老人在這裡,不是,那是我媽媽的名字,喔,南省、陸省幾歲? |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
326.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
331.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這是國安單位嚴重概念競證書原本就保有這個作業但是是不是可以調到這樣我們不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
341.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
356.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
所以 立法院在最後 避到這種大數據的分拆之後 又在民調裡面 過程裡面 有很多黑暗的東西這是現在的東京 聖殿下 立總統 新手機械如果今天你的民進黨的政策會 敢這樣大肆的 把這些東西公佈出來不然你不覺得台灣的前途堪憂嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
371.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
374.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
不是說這有合法沒合法的,這是絕對沒合法的!絕對沒合法!尤其,經濟術應該很清楚,我們的立法院用這套系統,當機時的平時局,我們有一個歐盛局長姓歐, |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
398.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
401.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
不要理會國安黨 這個是個手在叛讀這裡的訴苦 這個是個手但是每一張大型的活動公務人員的手機啊 有進來停留15分鐘以上 停留30分鐘以上停留45分鐘以上 都一清理車他可以對你做整體監控所以這是一個很嚴肅的課題 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
428.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
433.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以部長我要跟你講的就是關於這種問題你不能說有也好沒也好,要很嚴肅,有機會總統問你的時候你要告訴他你要說謝龍介在說你過去心事有機害,來補考人家可以講個這個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
450.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
463.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
你會記得嗎?我之前在媒體在講的時候在分架的時候,很多人跟我說不可能啦,怎麼會有這個事情一直到我們疫情大爆發,芒果一般發出60萬桶的檢訊,你會記得嗎?那個時候人家跟我說啊!龍介你說得對,本來因為我們看到有的事情,我們不便在台面上說嘛為什麼你什麼人經過芒果那四口冷凍,那60萬桶的檢訊怎麼發出來? |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
482.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
489.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這所有本來就都在的,國安單位要拿誰是可以拿,但是你不應該拿出來做政治用途啊!這非常惡質啊!經理你請回答,不然我頂著來,頂著拜,因為你沒有來啊!我有探討這個... |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
505.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
518.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
詐騙匯款的問題,金管匯跟你們出席,那天不是他們出席啦,有來,我不知道金管匯跟你們匯董去演繹,就是說我們匯款處理,要有一個冷靜期啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
524.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
550.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
有的人給我們便宜大家開始要花錢都很謹慎甚至人家扣錢、親人扣錢、警察扣錢你不要啦單錢花掉了兩百萬花出來他才開始想說讓我這樣我問我女兒有沒有,問我女兒有沒有問了她知道你這可能給我們便宜所以我在提出說花款了有一個兩點鐘左右或者是多久的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
552.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
559.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
有一個冷靜期 啊金管委說要回動令 大家重新來這裡做一個報告 敢不敢跟你們回憶討論啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
562.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
576.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這個委員提的這個意見齁這個是屬於金管會主政的業務那這部分我們是主...但是當局犯罪時你如果因為你要提供一些辦案的訴苦跟他要定幾點鐘或是多少金額啊不要去封他就金融特殊這樣情形下這個法不可以完美而且還可以檢焦詐騙的案件啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
587.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
593.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
因為這牽扯到那個金融的秩序的一個問題我們還是尊重金管會的一個我知啦你愛提就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
597.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
597.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
他有說要重新來 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
626.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
637.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
報告 接您 要延期嘛 我現在問他講合理延期啊目前還要在 還沒有不是啦 這您在主動應該是前 是因為這部分我告訴你 沒錯 就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
641.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
651.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
針對犯罪的形態及內容及模式 他們比較不知道但是針對金融及最佳的特殊維護 他們比較知道 我們比較不知道所以這就是看保護的 你們一定要磨合了 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
659.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
668.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
來到本會來重申說這很重要因為我現在這樣提出之後 各方的意見都覺得這個會款處理 後面有一個兩小時、三小時或是一小時的認證期對方那個會期那個帳戶比較可以去捏錢這樣因為很多人是集會了就換會了 比較保安不會付啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
683.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
691.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我講這樣 意思是你聽得懂嗎不清楚這個冷靜期這部分我們會跟警方 反正說委員的寶貴意見這部分我們拜託你邀議一下是好 謝謝 |