| IVOD_ID |
152877 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152877 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-25 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
25 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-23T09:31:31+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-23T09:43:55+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:24 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4536a6995608796e21dbde51848baade829d34e896d657c5e8351d9cde2851d34635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
謝龍介 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:31:31 - 09:43:55 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共4案。
二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案。
三、併案審查
（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。
（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。
（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。
【第三案（一）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；（四）如經院會復議，則不予審查】） |
| gazette.lineno |
500 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
謝委員龍介：（9時31分）主席，我請秘書長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請周秘書長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
周秘書長萬來：謝委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
謝委員龍介：秘書長辛苦，早安！我請教你，在走廊上都站了一些警察，二、三樓及樓下都有，我看委員、官員進來時，有時候他們都會客氣地請安、問好，如果主席要在這裡開會、主持會議，外面有人阻擋，警察維護主席讓他可以進入會議廳來使會議順利進行，這樣算動用警察權嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
周秘書長萬來：沒有，這個大概要這樣說明，以院會來說，第二條規定是會場，會場才有動用警察權的概念，一個議場裡面有議場的管理，是這樣的一個概念。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
謝委員龍介：所以主席如果要進來開會，警察維護他，讓他安全進入議事廳，這樣不算動用警察權？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
周秘書長萬來：沒有，在我的概念上是沒有。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
謝委員龍介：在立法院院會裡維護院長進入議場，因為我沒有看到警察進來議場裡面，這樣維護院長進入議場，這樣算不算動用警察權？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
周秘書長萬來：這個外界可能有點誤會啦！那是會場，我們在警察權的動用，就是因為警察權動用是不能影響到委員行使職權，在職權行使法裡面的概念是這樣的情形。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
謝委員龍介：感謝你，因為就是有人誤解，說韓院長動用警察權，你這樣解釋就很清楚。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][1] |
第二，有人說為什麼要舉手來進行表決？本席在現場有看到，但我沒有錄影，結果有其他的同仁錄影，就看到有民進黨的委員把表決卡抽掉，這樣會影響到表決的進行嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
周秘書長萬來：當然會啦！這個我來便在會裡面說明，不過這個會影響到表決的處理。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
謝委員龍介：譬如說再次開會時，我去把民進黨委員桌上的那張表決卡抽掉，人跑出來，這樣他就沒辦法表決了，我如果抽5張，他們就少5個可以去按表決器，這樣就會造成糾紛，不是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
周秘書長萬來：這會造成這樣。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
謝委員龍介：好，感謝你。主席，我現在請法務部跟金管會。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
主席：請法務部、金管會。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
謝委員龍介：次長，請教你，這次修法的目的，其實在洗錢的過程很多是要防制詐騙。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
徐次長錫祥：委員好。是！ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
謝委員龍介：過去所抓到洗錢的案件裡，你知道有多少是透過世界賭場洗錢的？比例是占多少？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
徐次長錫祥：沒有這方面的資料。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
謝委員龍介：金管會也沒有嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
黃組長錫和：我們也沒有這方面資料。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
謝委員龍介：這樣你們修法的過程中，考慮的層面就比較少了，我們看全世界這麼多賭場裡面，包括地下的賭場，很多洗錢行為就是這樣來的。次長，你們都應該有耳聞才對，為什麼不做一份統計？本席認為要做一份統計啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
徐次長錫祥：有所謂的犯罪黑數，可能在民間有很多朋友提供你資訊，但我們是以查到來作為…… |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
謝委員龍介：對啊，所以我問你過去查到的洗錢案件裡面，在賭場查到的比例占多少percent？ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
徐次長錫祥：我們只有統計詐欺的數額，沒有對他的手法做分析。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
謝委員龍介：這樣沒辦法打到要害啦！我跟你說所有的詐騙，本席接受到很多人陳情，你知道嗎？我們有個詐騙專線叫165，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
徐次長錫祥：是！ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
謝委員龍介：當錢匯完之後，單我個人接到的就有好幾個個案耶！錢匯完之後，感覺可能被騙了，打去165說我現在匯去這個帳戶，拜託把帳戶凍結起來，165跟他說：「你要先去報警，等報警之後，我才能把它凍結。」次長，是這樣嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
徐次長錫祥：這個部分作業的手續是內政部主政。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
謝委員龍介：沒有，是不是這樣啦？什麼人主政，這不是權責的問題啦！我是要問事情是不是這樣嘛？現在沒有一個受騙的人打去165就可以凍結帳號，必須要先去完成報案，在報案之後由警方通知，才會把這個帳號凍結，我說的意思你聽得懂嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
徐次長錫祥：我知道，這是明確性的問題啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
謝委員龍介：所以我在說修法的過程，包括金管會，依據你們過去的統計，在幾十萬的案件裡面，包括警示帳戶一年一年一直增加，表示你們有在注意啦！現在已經到達近11、12萬戶了，如果是這樣的話，過去抓到詐騙匯款的金額都是多少錢以上，還是以下？最高的金額是一次匯多少錢？是不是多數都是一次匯款在兩、三百萬以下？ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
莊局長琇媛：因為到底詐騙匯款的金額是多少，其實還是牽涉到最後警調單位的調查，不過一般來說的話，如果你是…… |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
謝委員龍介：我要跟你講的意思是你們都聽不到重點耶！因為很多人是錢匯完之後，匯錢是一個衝動，像跟買房子一樣，在簽約簽好之後，回家才覺得我買得對不對、有沒有買貴了，就一瞬間而已，錢匯了，他覺得受到詐騙，他會去報案；有一種是經過冷靜10分鐘、20分鐘之後，他覺得懷疑，他會開始詢問朋友覺得受到詐騙了，如果把匯款的作業，很多人說這樣會影響到金融機制，這筆錢匯了，冷凍期兩小時，我講的意思你有聽懂嗎？這筆錢匯了以後，因為對方都有在巡帳號嘛！有匯錢進來，他就叫車手去領了嘛！所以錢很快就被領走了，就算半小時後你把他擋起來也來不及了，錢已經被領走了。若是有兩小時的冷凍期，我還要顧慮到你的金融秩序，怕影響到人欠錢、商業調用耶！匯款你也要擋人家？所以我問你匯款詐騙的都是多少金額，譬如一次匯錢都差不多300萬、200萬、50萬、30萬、20萬不等，這樣你是不是可以抓一個適當金額以下的匯款去做一個兩小時左右的冷凍期啦！匯款人匯完之後，他覺得反悔還是他覺得受騙就可以快速反映，我跟你說，這樣可以減少很多詐騙的案件讓這個歹徒得手，你對這個說法有什麼建議或看法嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
莊局長琇媛：報告委員，金額應該多少以及冷凍期問題的部分，金額的多少我會覺得應該還是要跟檢調單位先瞭解啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
謝委員龍介：這樣法務部這個意思你有瞭解嗎？你們都沒考慮這個暫存，因為我們在民間收到很多受害者的陳情，所以一直在想要怎麼樣去突破，立法院協商也有冷凍期，冷凍之後大家會比較冷靜，一小時或兩小時的時間還不會去影響到我們的金融秩序與經濟、商業的行為，這是要去共同思考的，因為詐騙確實氾濫到今天，我跟你說，做賊的狀元才啦！我看你們快要江郎才盡了，所以不管是怎麼修，我們怎麼修，他就怎麼蛻變；我們怎麼修，他就怎麼蛻變，我們腳步若跟不上他們，我跟你說，我們的人民就受害越殘忍、越悲哀，你覺得可以對這個方法來考慮嗎？可以研議嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
莊局長琇媛：報告委員，我們可以研議看看，因為凍結的時間也不能太久…… |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
謝委員龍介：當然啦！我剛才有說你可能沒聽到，錢匯出去的10分鐘、20分鐘後他才會冷靜，錢還沒匯出去之前他會很緊張，就急著想要匯，等匯出去之後他就開始冷靜了，所以我跟你說，是要兩小時還是一小時，這很有效，你們研議看看，有什麼窒礙難行的地方，希望你可以提供一份說明給本席跟委員會，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
莊局長琇媛：好，這部分是不是我們也可以跟檢調單位、法務部一起來研議？ |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
謝委員龍介：可以啊！不然主席，我建議可以重新召開，大家…… |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
主席：請銀行局依委員的要求，配合法務部將這樣的程序要件納入未來的修正內容，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
徐次長錫祥：我們對於這個是不是另案報告？ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
主席：另案報告？ |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
徐次長錫祥：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
主席：好啦、好啦！另案報告。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][1] |
謝謝謝委員，也謝謝次長、局長。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][2] |
接下來請莊委員瑞雄發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
84 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-36-25 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
沈發惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
謝龍介 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
莊瑞雄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
林思銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
吳思瑤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
郭國文 |
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黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
傅崐萁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
吳宗憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
葉元之 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
1 |
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2024-05-23 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1135001 |
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1135001_00002 |
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立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共 4案；二、處理113年度中央政
府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案；三、併案審查(一)行政院函請審議
「洗錢防制法修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修
正草案」案、(三)委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案、
(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案 |
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主席我請到秘書長請周秘書長秘書長辛苦 老闆我請教你我們這朝龍齁都有騎一些警察啦齁 |
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33.803 |
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二、三、六、六、七都有那麼我看委員、國務院、立法會有人說他們都會站在清安門口阿卡蘇在這裡如果是主席要來開會、要來主持會議阿在外面有人會阻擋阿我們這警察這樣委託讓他進入這個會議廳輸我們的主席可以進入會議廳來讓會議順利進行 |
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這樣有算你們動用檢察權嗎?沒有。這個大概要這樣說明啦。會場跟議場,以院會來說,因為議場裡面有第二條規定是會場。那會場才有動用檢察權的一個概念啦。那一個議場裡面它有議場的管理啦。是這樣的一個概念。 |
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85.72 |
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所以在主席若要入來開會,警察跟維護給他安全,進入這個議事廳裡面,這樣不算動用警察權?沒有,在我概念上是...如果這樣在立法院議會裡面,維護議長進入議場,我沒看到警察入來議事廳裡面嘛 |
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此外這可能有點誤會了那是會場我們對警察的動用就是因為這一個警察人動用是不能影響到委員行使職權那職權的行使裡面的一個概念是這樣呢?好,這樣感謝你齁因為就是有人誤解說韓議長勒 |
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動用警察款來這樣解說就很清楚。第二有人說為什麼要走手來做標革本身在現場有看的但我沒有錄影結果有其他的黨人錄影就看到有民眾黨的委員把我們的標革卡丟掉了 |
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169.586 |
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當然,這樣會影響到表決進行嗎?會啦,但是這個我未必在會裡面說完啦。不過這一個會影響到這一個表決的一個處理。齁,所以若是譬如說在此開會,我如果去跟民進黨的委員的特定那張表決稿我把它抽掉,我人總要照出來,這樣他就沒辦法表決了嘛。 |
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197.551 |
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198.892 |
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主席我現在請法務部跟這個金管會來法務部金管會請 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
218.876 |
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229.985 |
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保證 出證請教你委員長我們這個修法的目的其實洗錢的過程中是進階是要封地詐騙是過去數年在這個洗錢裡面你知道有多少是透過世界的膠囊洗錢的比率這麼多報告員 |
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247.327 |
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沒有沒有沒有這方面的資料。金管會阿嗎?包委我們也沒有這方面資料。喔,這樣你們在修法的過程,這顆爐料就比較少了。你們簡單看全世界這麼多casino 裡面,包括地下的,很多洗錢就是這樣來的啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
273.894 |
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300.303 |
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處長應該你們都有聽到還是有什麼沒要這要做一個統計我本身認為說要有一個統計啦我報委員有有所謂的犯罪黑數齁就是說你可能在民間有很多朋友提供你資訊但是以我們是以查到來做委員我說我問說你過去查到洗錢的這個案件裡面在交通查到的比率降幾%啦這個 |
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306.129 |
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322.138 |
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我們只有統計詐欺的那個數額沒有說對他的手法來做分析這這樣沒辦法打到七成啦我來講所有的詐騙本身齁接觸到很多人認證你覺得怎麼樣就說我們詐騙有一個專項叫165嘛對不對 一集廢了啊我個人接到就久了耶 |
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334.861 |
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334.881 |
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一復議．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．． |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
361.254 |
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372.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這個部份作業的手續是內政部主政?沒有啦,我...啊是不是這樣啦?什麼人煮飯這不是看...這個人的問題啦,我想問是不是這樣嘛?現在沒有一個說受騙的人打去165他就可以動帳號啦,就是你要去完成報案報案了喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
386.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
399.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
有經法通知他才會把這個帳號凍結,我講的意思你聽得到嗎?我知道,這是明確性的問題啦。好來,所以我要說修法的規定,要報金管會來,卡蘇啦,您過去的統計。 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
406.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
418.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這麼多幾十萬件案件之中．．包括警示帳號一張一張一直寫著．．表示你們有在注意．．現在已經到十幾萬 十一萬幾千 十二萬幾千了嘛．．若是這樣的話．．所有的費款．．債券過去抓到的債券．．費款的金額 都是多少錢 以上還是以下．． |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
436.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
437.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
相關的金價一百費多少錢呢?是不是到手都是在三兩百萬以下一齣一齣費款啦!到手! |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
449.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
472.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
報告委員因為這個匯款到底詐騙的金額是多少其實還是牽涉到最後警教單位的調查啦那不過一般來說的話那個金融機構如果你是我要跟你講的意思是你這樣聽下去就重點了咳嗽我們今天日因為很多人是錢花了啊花錢是一個衝動會不會買出一樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
478.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
481.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
簽約簽了啊,我回去還是覺得我買了對了不對有比較貴嗎?一瞬間而已。一回去,他覺得是有詐騙。 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
490.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
493.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查． |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
519.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
530.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這條錢回去之後．．對方因為什麼．．他都在選對方．．有錢進來．．他就叫車手去捏．．．所以錢很快就捏掉了．．趁這我八點鐘後你把它動起來．．還不會浮啊．．他錢已經捏掉了．．若是有兩點鐘的冷凍期．．我還要保留你的金融特殊．． |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
546.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
557.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
怕說影響到人們欠錢．．．太弱調用．．．阿你肥款還要人家動．．．所以我問你說．．．肥款詐騴的都是在多少金額．．譬如說一百肥錢都差不多三百萬．．兩百萬．．．五十萬．．．三十萬．．二十萬．．不定．．．這樣你是不是可以抓一個適當的金額．．．以下的肥款．．去做一個兩小時遭遇的冷凍期啦．．． |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
572.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
575.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
發言人發了他感覺歡悔還是他感覺受騙．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．� |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
592.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
620.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
報告委員那個金額應該是多少?還有這個冷凍期的問題的話。金額的多少?我會覺得應該是還是要跟檢調單位去先瞭解啦。這樣我沒有這個意思你有了解嗎?你都沒有考慮這個戰促,因為我們在民間收到很多受害者的金錢嘛。所以一直在想要怎麼去突破嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
623.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
634.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
立法院協商也有聆討期,聆討後大家會比較冷靜。一小時或兩小時這個時間,還不去應用到我們的金融的特殊及經濟最弱的行為。這是要去共同思考的,因為詐騙比較是氾濫到今天。 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
644.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
662.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我告訴你,這才是最完善的。我看你們強強要降農財金了。所以不管是怎麼修,我們怎麼修它怎麼退變。我們怎麼修它怎麼退變。我們腳步如果對應不對,我告訴你,我們的人民的小孩越來越殘忍、越悲哀。你覺得可以對這個方法來考慮嗎?可以延期嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
672.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
690.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
報委員,我們可以演繹看看啦,因為時間,凍結的時間也不能太久。當然啊,所以我告訴你,我告訴你,你沒聽到嗎?一十分鐘、二十分鐘,錢被廢了處理,它才會冷靜啦。錢還沒被廢之前,它會很緊張的,就說說想被廢啦。但被廢處理之後,它就開始冷靜啦。我告訴你,是兩小時還是一小時,我告訴你,這錢有效的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
700.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
710.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
真有好辣。您願意看那樣（（阿有什麼地改燃燒的所在（（你希望你能一份索命（（來給本縣委員會好不好（（ |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
713.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
722.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
請銀行局一一委員的要求配合法務部將這樣的程序要件納入未來的一個修正內容好不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
737.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
742.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我們這個是不是另案報告?另案報告?好啦好啦好啦,另案報告,謝謝。好,謝謝。 |