| IVOD_ID |
152876 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152876 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-19-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
13 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-23T09:55:46+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-23T10:04:04+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:08:18 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4536c6f9cc30f1e1594f1f99622ceb699a7d34e896d657c5e8349d2664fa287e6015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:55:46 - 10:04:04 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。
二、審查：
（一）本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。
（二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。） |
| gazette.lineno |
350 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（9時56分）主席、各位委員。有請主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請李主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
李主任委員鎂：委員早。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主委好。有關今天這個多層次傳銷管理法的修正，多層次傳銷管理法在103年1月29號公布施行，條文第十三條規定，多層次傳銷事業於傳銷商參加其傳銷計畫或組織時，應與傳銷商締結書面參加契約，並交付契約正本。前項之書面，不得以電子文件為之。電子簽章法比多層次傳銷管理法更早公布施行，民國90年11月14號就制定了電子簽章法，而103年制定多層次傳銷管理法，為什麼會明定不得以電子文件為之？一定有它的用意、立法的目的，你知道嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
李主任委員鎂：我知道，我跟委員說明一下，因為當時的時空背景，傳銷商跟傳銷事業產生的糾紛比較多，當時的立法目的就是要白紙黑字寫清楚，所以要用書面來寫，這樣大家看會比較清楚，而且要交付正本。特別為了讓大家以後能夠對這個契約有所瞭解，所以才規定不可以用電子文件為之。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：完全正確。因為現在又要修正，我們有委員提案修正「得以電子文件為之」，因為這個多層次傳銷是透過傳銷商介紹他人參加，建立多層級的組織，介紹、再介紹、再介紹，沒有限次數嘛，所以在這樣的情形之下，第五條寫得很清楚，在這樣的情形之下，剛才主委提的沒有錯，當時受害的都是基層、最基層的，而這些最基層的通常都是很少用那個了，以現在的說法就是連LINE都很少用了，現在是不是還是這樣？所以當初103年已經是一個電子化時代了，對不對？103年了，而且電子簽章法民國90年就公布了，所以它之所以會這樣明定，就是因為剛才主委所講的。現在經過了10年，是不是就可以？我沒有說不可以，但是不是要有什麼配套？準備好了沒有？公平交易委員會能不能去保護這些最基層的人，讓他們知道？所以這個部分，以公平會今天的報告，敬表支持。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][1] |
因為我剛剛講過電子簽章法90年11月14號公布施行，今年有再做修正，今年5月15號又修正，修得更開放了，簡單用詞就是更開放、更好。但是就基層而言是不是就能夠不受當時的影響，或是當時的問題會不會再重新發生？尤其是你看修正後的電子簽章法第五條第三項，「前三項文件或簽章之使用有相對人者，除相對人已同意採用電子形式外，應於採用電子形式之前，以合理期間及方式給予相對人反對之機會」，最重要是下一句話，「並告知相對人未反對者，推定同意採用電子形式」，這個對最基層的這些傳銷人員，他是不是能夠完全掌握？他說我們加LINE，好，就加LINE，他說我現在傳給你，就傳了，你沒有回反對，甚至他就幫你按同意，幫你代按同意，也是用你的手機。所以這個部分要有配套，不然的話又是成為一個詐騙事件，都是最基層的成為被詐騙者，有沒有可能發生這種事情？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
李主任委員鎂：謝謝委員，雖然用電子方式為之，它還是要有一個契約，還是有一些權利義務的條款、法令規定的一些事項，因為現在我們的數位經濟發展很快，傳銷商還是可以下載的，這個契約是可以下載的。另外，您談到的配套措施，公平會對於傳銷事業會有一些業務檢查，這一部分我們將來也會特別去觀察。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為每個部會關心的不一樣，數位發展部要推動電子化的時代、AI等等，他們要去推動，不能怪他，但是不同的部會就自己所主管的業務，怎麼樣去因應、怎麼樣加強保護最基層的人員，這恐怕不只是公平會，包括別的部會也是一樣，當初之所以會發生，現在可能又會發生新的受騙情形，這部分有什麼因應的作法嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
李主任委員鎂：將來我們會特別注意，我們對傳銷事業做業務檢查時，對於電子契約或者是當事人之間的契約會特別觀察。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不只是這樣而已，你剛剛講的，因為之前發生那麼多，所以你們常常到地方去做說明嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
李主任委員鎂：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這部分恐怕要更…… |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
李主任委員鎂：我們在宣導和業務檢查方面會注意。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：要更加強，尤其是這種新的東西，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
李主任委員鎂：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為大家習慣用書面，現在要用這個好好的宣導，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
李主任委員鎂：是的。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][1] |
接下來請呂玉玲委員發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
202 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-19-13 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
邱議瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
呂玉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
李坤城 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
黃捷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
林岱樺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
153 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-05-23 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1134901 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1134901_00004 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及
對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢；二、審查：(一)本院委員邱志偉等16人擬
具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳
銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案 |
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主席、各位委員有請主委來請你主委委員長主委好那今天 |
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31.188 |
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這個多層次傳銷管理法的修正這個多層次傳銷管理法一百零三年一月二十九號公布施行當時這個現在就是現在條文 |
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第十三條多層次傳銷事業與傳銷商參加其傳銷計劃或組織時應與傳銷商締結書面參加企業並交付企業正本。前項之書面不得以電子文件為之。電子簽章法比這個多層次傳銷管理法更早公布施行。民國九十年了 |
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78.251 |
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11月14號就制定了電子簽章法。那103年制定這個多層次傳銷管理法為什麼會明定不得以電子文件為之?一定有它的一個用意、立法的目的。知道嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
104.273 |
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131.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
我知道 我跟委員說明一下因為當時的時空背景傳銷商跟傳銷事業產生的這個糾紛比較多所以當時的立法目的就是白紙黑字寫清楚所以要用書面來寫這樣大家看這個比較清楚而且要交付正本那特別為了讓大家以後能夠對這個契約有所瞭解那所以才規定不可以用電子文件為之往前正確 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
133.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
161.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那因為這個現在要修正我們有委員提案修正得以電子文件為之那因為這個多層次傳銷它是透過傳銷商介紹他人參加建立多層級的組織介紹再介紹再介紹沒有限次數嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
163.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
190.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
所以這樣的一個情形之下這個第五條寫得很清楚在這樣的情形之下你剛才主委提的沒有錯這個當時受害的都是基層最基層的而這些最基層的通常都是很少用那個以現在的說法就是連賴都很少用 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
192.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
218.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
現在是不是還是這樣所以這個是當初103年已經是一個電子化時代了對不對103年了而且電子簽署法民國90年就公布了所以他之所以會這樣這樣子明定就是剛剛主委所講的那現在經過了10年是不是就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
219.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
245.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我沒有說不可以但是就是是不是要有什麼配套準備好了沒有這個公平交易委員會能不能去保護這些最基層的讓他們知道所以這個部分以公平會今天的報告就這個競表支持了 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
248.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
274.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
因為我剛講過電子前章法90年11月14號公布施行今年有在做修正今年有在做5月15號這個又修正修得更更開放啦我簡單用詞叫更開放更好但是就基層而言是不是就能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
277.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
288.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
二、審查．一）本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。．一）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。． |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
296.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
322.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
前三項文件或簽章之使用．有相對人者．除相對人已同意採用電子形式外．應於採用電子形式之前．以合理期間及方式給予相對人反對之機會．並告知相對人未反對者推定同意採用電子形式． |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
325.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
353.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
這個對電最基層的這些傳銷人員他是不是能夠完全掌握我們加Line加Line加Line我現在傳給你就傳了你沒有回反對甚至他就跟你按同意我幫你代案同意你是你的手機所以這個部分的這個配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
355.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
368.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
不能的話又是成為一個詐騙事件的最基層的成為被詐騙者有沒有可能發生這種事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
369.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
390.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
謝謝委員,雖然用電子方式為之,它還是要有一個契約還是有一些權利義務的條款法令的規定的一些事項那因為現在這個我們的數位經濟發展很快我們的傳銷商還是可以下載的,這個契約是可以下載的那另外您談到的配套措施在公平會我們對於我們的傳銷事業會有一些業務檢查這一部分我們將來也會特別去觀察 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
394.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
416.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
因為每個部會的關心的不一樣。數位發展部他要去推動這個電子化的時代AI什麼什麼他要去推動,不能怪他。但是就不同的部會就自己所主管的業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
418.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
443.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
怎樣去因應這個怎樣去加強保護最基層的最基層的人員這恐怕是每一個不是不只是公平會了包括別的部會也是一樣這個因為當初所以會發生現在可能又會發生新的新的一個受騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
447.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
464.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
關於這個有什麼樣應應的做法嗎?將來我們會特別注意我們在對傳銷事業做業務檢查的部分的時候對這個電子契約或者是就是當事人之間的契約我們會特別去 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
465.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
493.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這個部分不是這樣而已啦我看之前因為發生你剛剛講的發生那麼多所以你們常常去到地方去做說明嘛是所以這個部分恐怕要更的我想在宣導方面在業務檢查方面我們更要加強尤其這種新的東西好不好因為大家習慣用書面了嘛現在用這個所以好好好地宣導好不好是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
494.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
494.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
謝謝鄭天財委員 |