| IVOD_ID |
152874 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152874 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-26-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
17 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-23T09:45:52+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-23T09:54:33+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:08:41 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa45386d7c795984acb509f2fcaa3dc194f7380469f81d00442834a6488c8a1a4c8885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
蘇清泉 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:45:52 - 09:54:33 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。
【5月22日、23日二天一次會】） |
| gazette.lineno |
398 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
蘇委員清泉：（9時46分）謝謝主席，我請部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請何部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
蘇委員清泉：部長辛苦了。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
何部長佩珊：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
蘇委員清泉：現在人家都拿你以前的話來頂你現在怎麼回答，你剛才講的也很誠懇，就是角色不同、位置不同，這個也很實在，就跟我們在國會要講實話一樣，這樣講我反而很欣賞。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
蘇委員清泉：「新任勞動部長何佩珊，勞團驚呼：勞保年金大刀要砍了」，有這個事情嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員，絕對不會，絕對沒有，我剛剛已經講得很清楚。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
蘇委員清泉：你剛剛在報告的時候，我在辦公室有看，你說政府會撥補嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
何部長佩珊：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
蘇委員清泉：政策是「多繳、少領、延後退」，這就是瘋話嘛！繳多一點、領少一點、比較慢領，這個歐巴桑就會了，還需要你嗎？我們機構的清潔勞務公司的經理跟我說：「現在這個部長是讀什麼的？」我說：「我不知道耶！查看看。」他說：「這種政策，還需要他嗎？」繳多一點、慢一點領，最好做到死都不要領，是不是這樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員，這是過去年改在討論的方案，基本上不可能…… |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
蘇委員清泉：這個是賴總統講出來的，他在演講的時候這樣講耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
何部長佩珊：賴總統沒有講過這樣子的方案，這是過去8年蔡總統執政的時候，曾經討論過的年改方案，不過基本上這在勞保年改是不適用的。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
蘇委員清泉：好。法國只有把退休年齡延長兩年，暴動差不多持續將近兩年，到現在還在亂，你的看法怎麼樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
何部長佩珊：這就是我們如果要進行所謂的「多繳、少領、延後退」這個東西，事實上它付出的社會代價跟成本是非常高的，而且恐怕我們整體社會都承擔不起，因為勞保是1,050萬人的保險，那麼它幾乎已經等於是國民基礎年金的角色了。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
蘇委員清泉：政府的角色在哪裡？你搞這個就是把問題丟給勞工，叫他慢一點退、以後領少一點，要有心理準備，叫雇主要繳多一點。然後政府的角色是什麼？政府的公共投資要夠，這個跟我們醫療是一模一樣的嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
何部長佩珊：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
蘇委員清泉：現在醫療搞一個總額預算，全部把財務的壓力丟給醫界，然後這十幾年來，政府很好幹啊！他們沒有壓力，到年底就是總額預算，就是浮動嘛！浮動就是1點變成0.8、0.6、0.7，都你家的事！還好我們勞動部不錯，還會撥補，知道政府的角色在哪裡。現在的衛福部就是擺爛嘛！我看起來這兩個問題是一模一樣，就是政府的公共角色、政府的投入要夠多，才能穩定這兩個，醫療是臺灣最大的穩定力量，醫療如果崩塌，整個就崩塌了，勞工更是我們心中的一塊肉。所以我要跟你講，你剛剛有講了會破產或什麼的，我問一個問題Uber Eats跟foodpanda要合併，併了嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
何部長佩珊：現在他們宣布而已。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
蘇委員清泉：宣布而已。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
何部長佩珊：對，合併的過程會走很長的。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
蘇委員清泉：這個我比較擔心……因為我很少在叫外送，但我覺得做吃的人，我這裡要給他們肯定，我去餐廳，不管哪一個餐廳吃飯，坐下來都很感恩，人家要煮一頓飯給我們吃，我就很感恩了，好吃、不好吃，我從來不會嫌棄。來了就吃，吃一吃就感謝付錢，嫌高嫌低……因為做吃的實在很辛苦。好啦，現在Uber Eats跟foodpanda如果合併變成一家，費用它自己訂，外送員的薪水、權益就它訂，它說了算，會不會這樣？部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
何部長佩珊：有可能啊，因為是第一名跟第二名的合併，這茲事體大，對消費者跟對外送員的權益，都可能會產生嚴重的傷害。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
蘇委員清泉：所以你的看法是不好嘛？我們醫界有兩個國家醫院，一個是臺大醫院，一個是臺北榮民總醫院，為什麼以前會扶植兩家都當國家醫院？就是競爭嘛！既競爭又聯合，醫療水準才會提高…… |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
何部長佩珊：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
蘇委員清泉：如果只有一家太大、獨大，這樣它就自以為老大最厲害，全世界我最厲害，如果是榮總也是危險耶！所以兩家在評比，你看這次在國外評比，榮總的分數竟然贏過臺大，雖然贏不多，臺大的院長很不服氣，但不服氣就拼嘛！所以Uber Eats跟foodpanda要合併，我們是審慎，要很審慎。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
何部長佩珊：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
蘇委員清泉：部長，再來我要問你一個問題，剛剛你有講，高虹安的事情、國會助理的事情，你在老柯那邊當過主任，什麼回捐、回扣亂七八糟，你的看法是什麼？這個很重要，因為你是勞動部長，所以我要問你這個問題，很難回答對嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員這一題，我沒有很瞭解耶，真的抱歉！ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
蘇委員清泉：因為這也是一個大問題啦，那你就準備好再來說吧！ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
何部長佩珊：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
蘇委員清泉：剛剛震災的措施，我看你也講的非常多，昨天我在屏東縣小琉球做交通的考察，次長有去，而交通部長就親自打電話給我說他陪行政院長在花蓮勘災，我就給他拍拍手，他去講什麼我不知道啦，但是至少馬上去啦！所以在勞工這邊的措施，你有什麼亮點？ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
何部長佩珊：我剛剛特別在業務報告有提到，訓練補助跟僱用獎勵，這個是第一次我們就安基金使用在對企業補助，讓它能夠不解僱勞工，這個是第一次使用，大概要花4.6億，就是所謂的僱用獎助啦！所以這一點請委員務必要支持。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
蘇委員清泉：這一點我們一定支持。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
何部長佩珊：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
蘇委員清泉：還有幾十秒，我問一個，現在立法院在表決這個事情，十幾年前你是同意的；十幾年後，你像是保留？還是反對？沒辦法回答？ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員，容我講一點心裡話喔，這個條文進行二讀，我十分震驚悲傷啊，我期待我們大院的委員能夠看到我們國際友人的呼籲，包括像司徒文教授他們的看法…… |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
蘇委員清泉：美國的參眾議員，很多都說這個本來就應該要通過的，我們要注意外電的報導，你講的是那一面，你以前的行事作風非常的強悍，我們也非常的佩服，但是你當勞動部長，不一樣了喔！如果你在這邊隨便嗆會出問題喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
何部長佩珊：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
蘇委員清泉：大家要圓融啦，不然我們會走得很辛苦，這是對你的期許啦，以上，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
主席（林委員月琴代）：謝謝蘇委員的發言。接下來我們請黃秀芳委員發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
464 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-26-17 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
黃秀芳 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
陳昭姿 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
林月琴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
陳菁徽 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
盧縣一 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
蘇清泉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
王育敏 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
涂權吉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
林淑芬 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
王正旭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
何欣純 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
麥玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
廖偉翔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
吳春城 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
陳培瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
林國成 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
陳瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
劉建國 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
楊曜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
邱鎮軍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[26] |
李彥秀 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[27] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[28] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
383 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-05-23 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1135001 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1135001_00006 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢 |
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1135001_00005 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
0.269 |
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18.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
發言好,謝謝主席我請部長請何部長我也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
19.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
37.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
部長辛苦了謝謝現在人家都拿你以前的話來頂你現在怎麼回答你剛才講的也很誠懇就是角色不同位置不同這很實在這就跟我們要在國會要講實話一樣這樣講我反而很欣賞謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
45.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
64.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
新任勞動部長何佩珊,勞團金夫,勞保年金大刀要砍了,有這個事嗎?委員,絕對不會,絕對沒有,我剛剛已經講得很清楚了是你剛剛在報告的時候我在那個辦公室有看喔,你說政府會撥補嗎?是下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
69.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
92.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
政策是多領、少領、延後退,這就消費嘛。 高到多的、娘到少的、客人娘,這就歐巴桑就要,踏到你。 我們那個機構的清潔勞務公司的經理跟我講說,現在這個部長是特性的。 我說我不知道耶,我不知道差什麼。 他說這就政策這樣,那踏到他。 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
99.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
101.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
9月22日、23日二天一次會議員：蘇清泉 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
129.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
140.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
好,華國只有把退休年齡延長兩年,暴動持續將近兩年,到現在還在亂,你的看法怎麼樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
141.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
164.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
這就是我們要如果要進行所謂的這一種多腳少領、延後退中這個東西事實上它付出的社會代價跟成本是非常高的而且恐怕我們整體社會都承擔不起因為這勞保是1050萬人的保險那麼它幾乎已經是等於是國民的基礎年金的角色了 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
165.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
182.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
政府的角色在哪裡啦?你搞這個就是把問題丟給勞工,叫人家看盤才拿,要有心理準備,然後叫僱主說你要搞多一點,然後政府的角色是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
183.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
203.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
政府公共投資與政策投資要夠嘛這個跟我們醫療是一模一樣的嘛現在醫療搞一個總額預算全部把財務的壓力丟給醫界然後這十幾年來政府很好幹啊他們就沒有壓力啊到年底就是總額預算就是浮動嘛浮動就是一點變成0.8、0.6、0.7都你知道的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
208.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
233.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
現在我們的勞動部不錯,還有多普 知道政府的角色在哪裡現在的衛福部就是擺爛嘛這樣我看起來這兩個問題是一模一樣就政府你的公共政府你的角色政府你的投入要過多才能穩定這兩個醫療是台灣最大的穩定力量 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
234.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
241.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
醫療幫全都幫勞工更是我們心中的一塊肉所以我要跟你講下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
243.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
262.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這個你剛剛有講了嘛,吧啦吧啦吧啦,會破產會什麼的。好,我問一個問題。Uber跟Fupanda要合併,變了嗎?現在他們宣布而已。宣布而已。對,這個合併的過程會走很長的。那這個我比較擔心的,因為我很少再叫外送了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
265.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
290.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我覺得我們做這家人,做吃的人,我這裡要跟他們肯定我去餐廳吃,不管哪一個餐廳吃,我坐下來都很感恩人家要煮飯給我們吃,我就很感恩,好這裡壞這裡,我從來沒在想的再來就吃,吃了吃了就感謝父親,欠官欠家,我坐在這邊,因為煮這家實在有夠辛苦好啦,那現在Uber跟副胖達如何變成一家? |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
291.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
314.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那現在不用他自己定然後這個接送員的薪水他的權益由他定他說了算會不會這樣部長有可能啊因為他是第一名跟第二名的合併這知識體大對消費者跟對外送員的權益都是很可能會產生嚴重的傷害所以你的看法是不好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
315.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
333.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我們一屆齁兩個國家醫院一個是臺大醫院一個是農民總醫院臺北齁那為什麼以前會扶持兩家醫院都當國家醫院這就競爭嘛具競爭又聯合醫療水準才會提高對齁如果只要一家泰大獨大愛的老大我想搞的全世界都要想搞齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
334.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
334.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
阿那榮總? |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
334.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
360.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
也是危險的所以兩家在評比你看這一次在國外評比榮總的分數竟然贏過台大雖然贏不多啦台大的院長都很不無氣阿不無氣就拚嘛所以這個Uber跟富邦達要合併我們是省慎喔要很省慎是是是部長那再來我要問你一個問題喔這個剛剛你要講這高峰安的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
363.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
363.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
呃...拍回答齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
383.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
395.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我覺得這題我沒有很了解耶真的抱歉因為這個也是一個大問題啦好下一張那你就準備好再來說吧謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
398.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
425.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那剛剛震災的措施我看你也講的非常多昨天我在屏東縣在小陽橋做交通的考察那次長去那部長就親自打電話給交通部長說他陪行政院長在花蓮看災我就給他拍拍手我說去講什麼我不知道但是至少你馬上去所以你這些勞工這邊的措施有什麼亮點 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
427.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
450.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我剛剛有跟特別在剛剛業務報告有提到訓練補助跟雇用獎勵這個是我們第一次救安基金使用在對企業來補助他能夠不解雇勞工這個是第一次使用當然要花4.6億所以這就是所謂的雇用獎助 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
450.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
467.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所以這一點請委員務必要支持這樣子對這個這一點我們一定支持謝謝謝謝好那還有幾十秒問一個現在這個立法院在表決這個事情十幾年前你是同意的那十幾年後好像你是保留還是反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
469.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
471.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
美國的參眾議員很多都說這個本來就應該要通過的我們也有對於外面的報導你講的那一面 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
498.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
498.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
謝謝蘇委員的發言 |