| IVOD_ID |
152757 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152757 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
24 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-22T09:43:54+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-22T09:56:24+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:30 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9dbc8826b93f8c6e2142979da188194bea3b43bbf2d64d20173b1dc20caf5ad1f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
謝龍介 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:43:54 - 09:56:24 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。） |
| gazette.lineno |
666 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
謝委員龍介：（9時44分）主席，我請部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：有請鄭部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：委員早。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
謝委員龍介：部長，恭喜！ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
謝委員龍介：你離開臺南幾年了？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：十幾年了。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
謝委員龍介：你會思念、會想念嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：我常常回臺南。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
謝委員龍介：這樣好！這樣表示你對臺南這些事情都很清楚啦！我們的清德兄、賴總統聘請你當部長，有跟你做重點的指示嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：我想委員很清楚，總統對法務部的一些指示，在520的時候都講了，要…… |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
謝委員龍介：你有聽他演講嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：演講的時候我有在場觀禮。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
謝委員龍介：你在場喔！你聽一聽有覺得他少說一項嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：對法務部的部分，要求我們嚴打這些犯罪…… |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
謝委員龍介：就是黑金、槍、毒、詐騙，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
謝委員龍介：還少說一項，你忘記了嗎？他跟你說的工作報告和他的演講裡面，為什麼會少一項？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這個五打七安政策本來就是黑金槍毒詐…… |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
謝委員龍介：五打裡面他少說一項。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：請委員來指導。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
謝委員龍介：他少說官商勾結跟貪污這一條。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這部分就是黑金的問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
謝委員龍介：沒有啦！黑金歸黑金，他不把這個明說出來是什麼原因？因為臺南的案件你很清楚啊！你常常回去，等一下我再和你探討。我請教你，剛才在你的報告裡面有提到人權兩公約，這是一個很嚴肅的問題，4月23日大法官針對廢除死刑的辯論結束之後，大概三個月內要來裁定，過去蔡部長曾在本院很嚴肅且非常肯定說他反對廢除死刑，這是法務部堅定的立場，我聽了實在很感動，因為跟百分之八十七、八的臺灣民意相當符合，可惜520之後換你來，先恭喜你以外，本席在這裡希望你能表達這到底是蔡部長的個人立場，或者他所說的是法務部的立場？我現在要慎重請教部長，你的立場是什麼？針對廢除死刑，你的立場為何？ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：我想法務部的政策都有延續性，法務部的立場就如委員剛剛提到的4月23日憲法法庭的辯論中，我們講得非常清楚，我們主張死刑制度是合憲的，這個立場我們目前都沒有改變，我當法務部長…… |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
謝委員龍介：過去大法官也曾有三次的解釋嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：有三次的解釋。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
謝委員龍介：可以請教你個人的立場嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：我這邊不適合談個人的立場，我只能談法務部的立場。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
謝委員龍介：你有要執行法務部的立場嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：就是看憲法法庭的判決結果。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
謝委員龍介：法務部的立場是堅決反對廢除死刑，你說的啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：因為執行死刑的確是一個很嚴肅的問題，誠如委員所講的，我們有些的…… |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
謝委員龍介：所以你的意思是要等裁定下來，我現在再問明確一點，你現在就職之後，態度很重要，因為這不是你個人而已，這牽涉到萬一廢除死刑成真，未來的詐欺、治安事件、兇殺事件比現在更多的時候，所有的負面後果變成是賴清德要承擔，所以在這裡我要請教你的態度，在7月23日還沒裁定以前，你現在就任法務部長，有要執刑這37個死刑犯嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，執行死刑是非常嚴肅的一個問題，既然牽連在釋憲中，我想不管要不要執行，在這個時候我們靜待，應該是7月份會有一個結果出來。我想要執刑也不急於這樣，更何況這37名死刑犯目前都還在聲請非常上訴，法律的程序也還沒走完，我們這邊還是要靜待大法官的釋憲、憲法法庭判決的一個結果。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
謝委員龍介：好，如果大法官解釋出來是合憲，你什麼時候要槍決？ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：因為合憲的解釋還沒出來…… |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
謝委員龍介：如果它宣告合憲之後啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：如果有涉及到一些結論出來，我們會依照合憲的判決來做一個處理。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
謝委員龍介：多久的時間啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：我在等這個判決。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
謝委員龍介：你在等？都說你彷彿是司法的藍波、辦案很強硬，但槍決死刑犯卻還要再等，我有點失望，枉費我今天對你高度期待。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][1] |
你有說到打詐，過去的打詐，民進黨說八年了，錢也拿這麼多了，結果八年的政府，詐欺愈詐愈多、案件愈來愈多，你們玩真的還假的，我也想不通，法務部的檢察官、地方的警察一直抓，抓起來送去法院都判無罪，輕判的差不多50%，判三年以上是0.5%，200個詐欺犯只有一個判比較重而已。在520賴總統就職那一天，我們在南投抓到一個車手，你知道嗎？23歲的詐欺犯、車手，這個個案你可能不知道，抓到的時候，他跟警察說一個月前才被抓到而已，結果法院就放他出來了，還是檢察官連移送也沒移送？一個月後再抓到的時候，警察問他，他說現在裝備升級，出來收錢還帶點鈔機，他為什麼要拼？因為投資報酬率特別好，我們國防部募兵的兵源不足，詐騙集團的車手募兵，兵源源源不斷，一個月最差還有10萬、9萬，最差的喔！我們請一個兵替我們戰爭，一個月才三萬多，誰要當兵？詐騙還不用被關！你對詐欺的態度為何？ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：我想委員講的也有事實上的依據，的確我們打詐一定要讓他無利可圖才有效果，所以我們推出打詐專法，這部分請委員要支持，委員剛才提到輕判，我們的打詐專法對於1,000萬的…… |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
謝委員龍介：我們已經支持你們很多了啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：我們立法是滿重的，還有假釋的三振條款…… |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
謝委員龍介：我們對於打擊犯罪沒有不支持的，這裡所有的委員都支持你們很多了啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：你要支持我們的打詐四法，麻煩委員在我們送來審議的時候給予支持。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
謝委員龍介：要做出來給人家看啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：在法制面也要讓它重一點。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
謝委員龍介：關於掃蕩綠能蟑螂，你說常常回去臺南，我現在問你，你知道臺南有很多案件嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：檢察官有在分案偵辦中。 |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
謝委員龍介：還在偵辦中？ |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這一定要仔細蒐證，我們會要求全力偵辦。 |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
謝委員龍介：我知道，但是我檢舉的，你們都沒辦啊！我也知道在偵辦中，我重視的是官商勾結，你們都辦底下那些人而已，真正一直在產卵的那隻母蟑螂，你不把它打死，底下的那些小蟑螂怎麼也打不死，就算打死也沒用，我剛才問你就是因為你說常常回去臺南。我現在再跟你說，一間公司的資本額是10萬，各位聽聽看，你們不要再那麼辛苦考試當公務人員了，他一次成立五、六間公司，不然也出一點本，對不對？要騙我們、要官商勾結，你們也要出本，一間公司是10萬，買賣土地200萬，實價登錄變成800萬，800萬可以跟銀行借600萬，這樣就賺一堆錢了，經過四年，好幾間資本額10萬的公司都變成資本額上億，我跟你說再經過四、五年，他們都可以上市上櫃，這樣抓不到？你們現在辦的都只是那些技術面喔！真正是因為我們國家為了要綠能，所以融資開綠燈，全部的錢都是從銀行搬的，你們偵辦不到，不可能啊！怎麼可能會偵辦不到！你跟我說在分案中，我暫且相信你。 |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：委員關心的，我會要求各檢察機關加以嚴辦這些綠能案件。 |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
謝委員龍介：我再跟你說要怎麼偵辦，他如果跟你說查不到，我跟你說錢、金流，你賣3億，為什麼你只收1億？剩下的2億為什麼不給你？再來，土地的實價登錄比對下去，沒有查不到的，部長，這對你來說是簡單的嘛！對不對？你辦案這麼厲害，怎麼可能這個會查不到，要查跟不查啦！不要忘了賴清德總統的決心。他在臺南，去年3月15號叫臺南市民進黨所有市長、立委都站起來，向臺南人道歉，為什麼道歉？因為他發覺官商勾結很嚴重了，加油啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
主席：謝謝謝委員，謝謝鄭部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[57][1] |
先作宣告，今天有委員提出臨時提案，依本會往例，在登記質詢的本會委員發言告一段落後處理，預計在上午11時處理，如屆時委員正在詢答，則於該位委員詢答完畢之後即進行處理臨時提案。 |
| gazette.blocks[57][2] |
繼續請黃委員珊珊質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
152 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-36-24 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
黃國昌 |
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沈發惠 |
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林思銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
謝龍介 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
黃珊珊 |
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楊瓊瓔 |
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傅崐萁 |
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羅智強 |
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林德福 |
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洪孟楷 |
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吳宗憲 |
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吳思瑤 |
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莊瑞雄 |
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陳俊宇 |
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翁曉玲 |
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陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
77 |
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2024-05-22 |
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1134901 |
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立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況，並備質詢 |
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主席我請部長 邀請政部長委員長 部長恭喜 謝謝你去台南 你開幾年了台南 十幾年了 會不會輸廉 會不會銷廉我常常回台南這樣好 這樣表示你對台南這事情都很清楚 |
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我們的副副副副副副副副副 |
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關於這個有演講的時候我在場你知道喔你聽聽有感覺他檢控一項嗎這是最法務部的部分是我們要求我們要嚴打就是黑金槍毒詐騙嘛對不對檢控一項你忘記了他跟你講的工作報告蓋在庭園裡面是怎麼可以檢控一項為什麼 |
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123.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
這個武打棄煙的策反就武打就黑金探訪武打?他敢說一項?這個請委員來主...他敢說官商勾結及探討這條?這部分就是黑金的問題啊?沒有啊!黑金反黑金啊!因為他不要把這個名字說出來這是什麼原因?你台南的案件你很清楚啊!你常常會等他啊!等一下我幫你探討這個,我請教你 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
126.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
136.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
除了在你的報告裡面有提及到零款、零公約這是一個很嚴肅的問題那麼在4月23日在法官的針對這個匯度施行的辯論結束後大概有三個月要來採訪那麼過去的創博中在本議裡面有很嚴肅在那裡非常傾聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
152.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
181.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
說他反對匪奪私刑這是法務部堅定的立場我實在感覺聽了很感動因為加了百十七百趴的臺灣民意 相當的符合可是我理解的往來先把你講去以外本色在這希望你可以這是到底是剉薄到個人的立場現在是他所說的是法務部的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
183.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
185.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我現在要心中請教你,部長你的立場是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
185.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
186.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
針對匯度施行你的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
191.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
209.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
法務部的政策都延續性那法務部的立場在上次就該委員提的4月23日那個憲法法庭的辯論中我們那個講得非常清楚我們是主張實行這個制度是合憲的那這個立場我們目前都沒有改變有三次的解釋你個人的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
216.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
217.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
法務部的立場是經過反對匯率施行嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
235.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
251.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
現在那個整個一個一個我們也是資訊事情的確是一個很嚴肅的問題吼稱稱入委員所講的吼那我們有有些的所以你的意思就是你當他裁定下來我現在再問你比較明確的你現在集結之後太多很重要因為這不是你個人而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
262.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
264.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
所以在這 你的態度我要請教你 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
289.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
298.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
七月二三以前 阿蕾才下來以前你現在九年 法務部部長 有沒有執行這四項法這三十七年 你有沒有執行嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
304.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
321.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
執行、實行跟委員報告,執行是非常嚴肅的一個問題。那既然現在你在事件中,我想不管是要不要執行,我想這個時候這個是我們在靜待,我們應該是7月份應該會有一個結果出來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
322.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
340.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我想要執行也不急於這樣而且更何況只有37名的死刑患目前都還在有申請那個非常上訴那我想在法律的的一個的程序還沒做完我想我們這邊還是要靜待大法官的一個視線一個一個憲法法庭的看決結果阿咧阿咧好阿叔大法官若是解說出來是合憲阿你什麼時候要請什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
351.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
370.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這個合憲的一個解釋,因為我還沒有出來,如果說有涉及到一些的,他一定有一定的一些的結論出來,我想我們依照這個合憲的一個判決,我們來做一個處理。這個我在等這個判決。 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
376.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
388.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
你都說你不屬於司法委員會的,你扮演很恐怖的,這要清殺是行為就要再等?我稍微有失望,不知道今天我對你割斗的期待,你有說要打詐,過去的詐騙民進黨說八年了,一年拿那麼多了,結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
402.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
427.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
八年的政府 早期的越炸越多 案件越來越多 你們是在算錢還是算價 我也想不到啊你一直抓 法務部 檢察官啊 地方的警察啊 大家抓你來 去告法醫都判不上 勤判差不多50% 判三年以上的大概0.5% |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
431.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
436.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
2.5% 兩百個早期判的和一個半個當時的有什麼關係?那如果這樣,我旅行,老總統就在那一日,你敢知道我們有去抓到一個在南島有抓到一個車手,你知道嗎?23歲的早期判,車手啦!這個個人你可能不知道齁抓到的時候齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
459.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
473.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
他跟警察說他1個月前比較讓你們抓到而已,1個月前啦,比較讓抓到而已,結果當然放他出來,還是檢測我參審室把他關了也沒什麼,1個月後抓到的時候,那警察問他說我現在裝備升級啦,裝備升級啦,出來收錢又檢測電超機啦, |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
492.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
503.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
他為什麼要拚?他投資報酬率特別好啊!我們國防部的募賓啊!兵員不足啊!詐騙集團的車手募賓啊!兵員延延不斷啊!一個月賞賣還有10萬、9萬啊!賞賣的喔!啊咱!請一個兵要替我們去戰爭!一個月才3萬多啊!啊是不是要來做兵?啊詐騙又不用關! |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
520.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
541.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
你對這個炸棄的態度是怎樣?我想委員講的也是有這些的事實上的一個依據那我想 的確啦 的確我們打炸一定要讓它無利可圖才有效果所以我們推出打炸裝法這部分我們請委員要支持你剛才有說我現在打炸裝 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
545.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
546.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個稍當立能 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
567.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
584.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這個你兩個傢伙,你說你上次回到台南,我現在問你,你知道台南有很多案件沒有?這個檢察官有在分,我們爭半宗。阿哥在爭半宗?他這個,這個一定要仔細蒐證,我想我們會邀請權力來...我知道阿,我檢舉的你們都沒有辦啊。爭半宗我也知道爭半宗啊。我重視的是高雄高街,你們都辦在那裡的卡而已嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
595.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
601.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我現在再跟你說一間公司10萬 主本業各位 你們聽到沒有 我在說 你們人家科企那間科在做公務人員他一般成立5、6間公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
625.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
630.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
阿不然你也出一點點份對不對 要來給我們騙 要來給我們冠雙高記 你也要出份一間公司10萬啦 齁對賣土地 土地2百萬 實價登錄變成8百萬8百萬可以跟銀行借6百萬 賺一堆錢 錢賺一堆 經過4年 一間10萬的主本業的公司 再賺喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
655.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
664.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
變成主本業都很弱我會講 再再四五年 他們都可以做七十幾年這樣行不行你們現在辦的事都在那裡計算喔真的因為我們國家為了要綠能所以 農資開綠燈全部的錢都在銀行補的你們辦不成 不可能啊靠可能的辦不成你跟我說在雲南中 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
689.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
695.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那個委員關心喔 我想 我會要求我們各檢察機關來 嚴加來我告訴你 金流 你賣3億 為什麼你收1億而已春年2億 為什麼不給你 再來實價登錄 土地對了 閉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
713.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
726.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這對你來說是簡單的,對不對?你本人那麼年輕,有可能這個差沒有啦!要差到不差,也不記得老前總統的決心,他在台南,今年3月15日叫台南市民進黨所有市長、立委都站起來!跟台南人合謀!為什麼合謀?因為他發覺外雙高潔很嚴重啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
742.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
742.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
謝謝謝委員：謝謝鄭部長 |