| IVOD_ID |
152598 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152598 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-23-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
12 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-16T10:02:48+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-16T10:10:20+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:07:32 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc3085af88a3346919533ce650d47ebc8884e01ba30ddb4afe0f87ea78fc2deb64d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林俊憲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:02:48 - 10:10:20 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部率所屬相關單位就「公路系統道路及橋梁安全改善辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| gazette.lineno |
311 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
林委員俊憲：（10時2分）謝謝主席。本席邀請交通部陳次長、高公局趙局長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：陳次長、趙局長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
陳次長彥伯：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
林委員俊憲：次長，高公局的工程有發生弊案，你知道嗎？這個是2021年檢調開挖高公局在月世界中寮隧道，開挖的結果發現隧道工程邊坡的岩栓，岩栓應該就是要栓到斜坡岩石上面的，開挖的結果，第一次不合格率有62%，超過一半不合格；第二次再去檢驗，有46%不合格，這個是關係到工程安全最重要的，營造公司把砂漿調包，本來要灌砂漿，調包改成清漿，岩栓數量不合格以外，他還拿去偷賣，拿去偷賣錢，多的還拿去賣給廢料公司，這個案子高公局現在怎麼處理？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
趙局長興華：跟委員報告，這裡面就是涉及到不法廠商跟監造顧問公司，已經在法院審判當中，這個邊坡是109年完成的，檢測結果有缺失的部分大概是第3、第4階的部分，我們針對這個部分有做一個補強，這個補強做完…… |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
林委員俊憲：有補強就算了？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
趙局長興華：有經過…… |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
林委員俊憲：2021年檢調就去開挖了，新聞今年才出來，發生1件了…… |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
趙局長興華：我們當年度就已經做補強。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
林委員俊憲：又發生了第2件啦！大園交流道到台15線新闢道路工程因為發生了工安事件，工人掉下來被鋼筋砸死了，後來去檢查才發現偷工減料、沒有按圖施工，跟前面的中寮隧道發生的原因都一樣，就是他沒有按圖施工，然後都偷工減料。那我們的監造在哪裡？我們自己高公局派在現場的人員在做什麼事？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
趙局長興華：跟委員報告，這個部分現在高公局沒有那麼多的人力，所以現在都是委託監造，關於這個部分…… |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
林委員俊憲：所以你們都沒事？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
趙局長興華：它是樣架筋的部分，並不是在橋梁的主筋裡面。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
林委員俊憲：所以可以偷工減料？所以沒關係就對了？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
趙局長興華：它這個是臨時設施…… |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
林委員俊憲：偷工減料、不按圖施工都沒有關係？你現在跟我說這個的意思是這樣嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
趙局長興華：沒有、沒有、沒有！我跟委員報告，第一個就是說它的品質是沒有問題的，第二個就是…… |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
林委員俊憲：怎麼會沒有問題？偷工減料叫品質沒問題！你在「裝肖仔」！ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
趙局長興華：它有問題的部分是在施工的、臨時的，一個設施樣筋的部分。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
林委員俊憲：出人命耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
趙局長興華：是，這個部分法院有判決。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
林委員俊憲：這判定就是說那工人為什麼會掉下來，因為你偷工減料啊！你沒有按圖施工嘛，結果你現在跟我說品質沒問題、沒有關係！ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
趙局長興華：不是，我是跟委員報告說，做在裡面的部分是沒問題的，但…… |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
林委員俊憲：所以你說你人不夠，你自己的工程你就不負責了？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][1] |
次長，像這種，公路局內部要不要行政處分？負責工程的人要不要處分？ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告，在交通部現行督導上，有關發生工安的時候，我們大概都會要求…… |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
林委員俊憲：不是工安，這是弊案！偷工減料，沒有按圖施工！ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
陳次長彥伯：這部分，我先跟委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
林委員俊憲：而且你那個中寮隧道，在它剛開始做，施工的過程，2018年，你們交通部自己內部有一個工程查核小組啦，這是部設在交通部裡面的，他去檢查中寮隧道，他就查出了32項缺失，查出缺失以後，然後這件事情就被掩蓋下來，就放在抽屜裡面，不然為什麼這32項缺失已經都查出來了，後續竟然還是一樣發生了沒有按圖施工，然後偷工減料的問題！如果不是因為檢察官接到密報去開挖，這個事情讓他灌漿蓋過去後，這件事情沒人知道啦，你說啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
陳次長彥伯：委員，有關這個部分，我們回去請我們的綜規司再來瞭解一下，如果相關的人員有疏失…… |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
林委員俊憲：我知道你也答不出來啦。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
陳次長彥伯：是，我們再來處理。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
林委員俊憲：交通部這個制度就有問題嘛，自己部裡面的稽核小組查到自己的單位、你們部裡面的工程有出現問題，然後官官相護啦，32項缺失耶，不是3項喔，你們早就檢查出來了。然後更離譜的，那個監造也是啦，監造部分你說交給監造公司嘛，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
趙局長興華：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
林委員俊憲：監造公司還作弊啦，工程日誌檢查的時間都寫錯了啦，還寫在灌漿以前，你聽懂了嗎？連作弊就不會作弊，一般是灌漿後才會去檢查，對不對？他那個檢查日期寫在灌漿以前，這個也被檢察官捉到啊，這種工程品質你要嚇死人嗎？而且這個是跟安全有關係的嘛，對不對？但現在你們這位局長的意思是怎麼樣，這個沒有那麼嚴重？ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
趙局長興華：跟委員報告，我們都已經，這個是在四年前發生的一個事情嘛，我們現在來講，也經過我們整個再補強，然後也經過大地工程學會，我們有第三方的認證，目前這個邊坡是穩定、安全的。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
林委員俊憲：所以這個案子發生就發生了！ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
趙局長興華：案子已經在法院審判中。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
林委員俊憲：你們相關的單位，包括你自己本人，一件接著一件，又不是一件而已，高公局，國家最重要的國道都是你們管的，每次發包重大工程，我這裡找到兩件都有弊案耶，而且都是偷工減料、不按圖施工，甚至還要有出人命的！次長，你們這裡面不需要行政處分嗎？你們自己不用檢討嗎？還有你們的稽核流程都不用改嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
陳次長彥伯：是，我想委員提出來的這些問題，我們內部會做一些檢討，如果相關人員有疏失的話，我們會做相關的行政處分。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
林委員俊憲：你給我打官腔喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
陳次長彥伯：不是、不是啦。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
林委員俊憲：你說這些都是廢話嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
陳次長彥伯：我跟委員剛才也有特別提到…… |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
林委員俊憲：你一定要有處分啦，請問你要回去檢討什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告，我剛才有講，但被你打斷了，就是那個工安的部分，我們都有要求，假設有工安的時候，包含監造雙方，甲、乙雙方，甚至工程單位，我們也都會要求做相關的一個行政處分。這裡頭有特別提到這種施工上弊案的這些，我想我們會一併做檢討。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
林委員俊憲：都是高公局的，這個單位要多注意一點！ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
陳次長彥伯：我想交通部管的都要注意啦。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
林委員俊憲：好，謝謝次長，謝謝局長。 |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
主席：林俊憲委員發言完畢。先做以下的報告及說明，等一下許智傑委員發言完畢之後，我們休息10分鐘，請各黨團告知其他尚未發言的委員，以便他們時間的安排。 |
| gazette.blocks[48][1] |
另外，本日有委員提出臨時提案，依本會往例，在登記質詢的本會委員發言告一段落後處理，稍後我們將在陳素月委員詢答完畢之後，隨即處理臨時提案。 |
| gazette.blocks[48][2] |
現在請林沛祥委員發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
462 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-23-12 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
李昆澤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
廖先翔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
林國成 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
游顥 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
蔡其昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
黃健豪 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
林俊憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
林沛祥 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
邱若華 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
許智傑 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
何欣純 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
魯明哲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
陳素月 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
徐富癸 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
顏寬恒 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
徐欣瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
林月琴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
黃仁 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
401 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-05-16 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1134703 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1134703_00006 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請交通部率所屬相關單位就「公路系統道路及橋梁安全改善辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質
詢 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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委員好 市長 高工局的工程有發生弊案你知道嗎這個是2021年 檢調去開挖高工局在國道中遼隧道 越市間中遼隧道那開挖的結果發現 因為他們的隧道工程也有邊坡他岩栓 岩栓應該就是要摔到那個斜坡岩石上面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
34.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
59.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
開發的結果第一個不合格率有62%超過一半不合格那第二次再去檢驗有46%不合格那這個是關係到工程安全最重要的那這個營造公司他把沙漿吊包本來要灌沙漿吊包改成青漿那個鹽酸 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
64.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
72.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
他數量不合格以外他還拿去偷賣還拿去偷賣錢啊還賣給 多的還拿去賣給廢料公司啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
74.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
98.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
那這個案子啊那你高公局現在怎麼處理跟委員報告那這裡面就是說涉及到那個不法的廠商跟建造的那個顧問公司他已經在立那個法院審判當中那我們針對的鞭波是109年完成的那我們在檢測的結果他這個有缺失的部分大概是第三第四階的部分那我們針對這個部分有做一個補強那也這個補強做完再補強就算了 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
100.516 |
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122.189 |
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2011年剪掉就去開發了那新聞今年才出來那發生一件了那又發生了第二件了大園交流道到台15線新闢道路工程因為發生了公安事件那工人掉下來被鋼筋砸死後來啊去檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
127.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
149.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
從才發現啦,那偷工減料,沒有按讀施工,跟前面的中遙隧道發生的原因都一樣,就是他沒有按讀施工,然後都偷工減料。那我們的監照在哪裡啦?我們自己高工局派在現場的人員在做什麼事? |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
151.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
179.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
跟委員報告 這個我們現在高工局沒有那麼多人力所以我現在都是委託監督那這個地方的部分他是樣價金的部分他不是在橋梁的主金裡面的所以可以偷工減料?所以他是臨時設施臨時設施不安途施工也沒有關係啊你怎麼說這個意思是這樣沒有沒有沒有 我跟委員報告就是說第一個就是說他的一個品質是沒有問題的第二個就是他有問題的部分偷工減料叫品質沒問題他有問題的部分是在施工的臨時的一個設施的樣金的部分出人命欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
182.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
201.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
這判定就是說那工人為什麼會掉下來?因為你頭工減料啊,你沒有教導師工啊你現在跟我說品質沒問題,沒有關係我是跟委員報告是說,坐在裡面的部分是沒有問題所以你工人能不夠,你自己的工作你就不負責了來,市長,像這種你工人內部要不要行政處分啊?你為這工程的人要不要處分啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
206.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
226.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我跟委員報告有關這個有關在交通部現行督導上有關這個發生公安的時候我們大概都會要求不是公安是這是閉案是偷工減料沒有按圖施工這部分我想我先跟委員報告而且你那個中寮隧道 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
227.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
250.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
在他剛開始做施工的過程2018年交通部你們自己研究部有一個工程查核小組這一部設在交通部裡面的他就去檢查中寮隧道他就查出了32項缺失啦那查出了缺失以後啊然後呢這件事情就看掉了就放在抽屜裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
251.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
268.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
阿不是啊 這32項缺失啊 已經都查出來了 後續竟然還是一樣發生了沒有暗途施工 然後呢 偷工減難的問題如果不是因為檢察官接到密報去開挖 這個事情讓那灌漿蓋過去啊 這事情沒人知道的你講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
276.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
296.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
委員有關這個我們回去請我們的中規司再來了解一下如果有相關的人我知道你也答不出來啦你交通部這個制度就有問題啦你自己部裡面的集合小組查到自己的單位你們部裡面的工程有出現問題然後關關相護啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
302.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
322.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
欸!32項缺失耶!不是3項耶!你們早就檢查出來啊!是!然後更離譜的啦!那個建造也是啦!建造,你說高有建造公司嘛!對不對!建造是!建造公司齁還作弊啦!他在工程日誌啊!檢查的時間啊!那寫錯啦!還寫在灌漿以前!你看喔!做...做表就不要做表!一般是灌漿之後才可以檢查!對不對! |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
330.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
333.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
他寫那個檢查日期寫在灌漿以前這個也被檢察官抓到啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
338.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
360.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
這個港鐵評決要嚇死人而且這個是跟安全有關係的嘛對不對你現在港鐵的意思是什麼這個沒有那麼嚴重根委員報告我們都已經這個在4年前發生了一個事情我們現在來講是說也經過我們那個整個在補強然後也經過大地工程學會我們有第三方的認證目前是這個邊坡是穩定安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
361.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
379.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以這事：所以你一件發生就發生案子已經在法院審判了嗎你們相關的單位包括你自己本人一件接一件又不是一件的你工具都是國家最重要的國道都要管的每次發發重大工程我才找到兩件都有弊案的而且都是那種偷工減料的不按圖施工真的還有出人命的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
391.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
407.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
市長你這兩天你們有行政處分嗎?你們自己不用檢討嗎?還有你們的集合流程你們蓋嗎?是我想委員提出來的這些問題我們內部做一些檢討如果有相關人員疏失的話我們會做相關的行政處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
409.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
437.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
你給我打官腔的喔?不是阿你講這個會違規阿我跟委員剛才有特別講你一定要有處分阿你現在要當檢討生?我有話講啦我剛才有講被你打斷了就是那個公安的部分我們都有要求假設有公安的時候包含監照雙方甲乙雙方甚至工程單位我們也都會要求做相關的一個行政的處分那這裡頭有特別提到這種施工上的弊案的這些我想我們會一併做檢討是 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
439.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
449.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
投訴高峰局的啊這個單位要注意的我想交通部管的都要注意啦好 謝謝市長 謝謝局長 |