| IVOD_ID |
152516 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152516 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
22 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-15T10:21:30+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-15T10:39:07+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:17:37 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c03d231d69fd68739c96869206de9aca73abc25b9e10ac7e453c5bd6785be991ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
謝龍介 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:21:30 - 10:39:07 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「總統行使特赦後，該案未沒收之不法所得及停審未定讞案件之處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| gazette.lineno |
338 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
謝委員龍介：（10時21分）主席，我請秘書長和次長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：麻煩秘書長、次長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
謝委員龍介：秘書長，我請教你，陳水扁前總統停止審判的規定是什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：因為生病啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
謝委員龍介：依照什麼規定呢？是刑事訴訟法就對了，生病。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：刑事訴訟法第二百九十四條。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
謝委員龍介：我現在慎重地請教你，我跟你說，你們跟蔡英文就是明修棧道，暗渡陳倉，你們搞一個大陰謀來幫阿扁特赦兼脫罪，我希望司法院不要當幫兇，你們不要成為共謀者。我現在請教你，在停止審判的期間，追訴權的時效是有繼續進行，還是沒有繼續進行？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：我們刑事廳這個…… |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
謝委員龍介：沒有啦！這是你的業務欸！ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：這個沒有繼續、沒有繼續。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
謝委員龍介：主席，他是司法院的秘書長耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：因為我們今天有主管廳也出席。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
謝委員龍介：聽不懂！來，聽不懂，你聽得懂嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：今天我們刑事廳也有來。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
謝委員龍介：不用啦！你是秘書長！拜託！你怎麼會這樣啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：因為有時候我們各廳…… |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
謝委員龍介：停止審判期間，追訴權時效是進行，還是不進行啊？主席，時間停下來！你是怎麼回事啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
主席：時間暫停。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：不是，因為這種有時候要很精準啦！要很精準，所以有時候…… |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
謝委員龍介：各位全國的好朋友、各位臺灣的鄉親，我剛剛講了蔡英文跟陳水扁，甚至包括清德兄，你們就是在進行這個大陰謀，不是只有特赦而已！今天如果只有特赦，我們還勉強接受，你幫助他脫罪，你不知道嗎？亂來！停止審判期間，就是我們其他的追訴期，你的追訴權時效是有在進行，還是沒有進行？拜託，你是司法院的秘書長！來，次長，請你說明一下，今天我讓你當老師。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
黃次長謀信：追訴權時效會因為起訴跟停止審判而停止進行，停止進行到一定期間之後，最後停止期間消滅也會再繼續進行，達到追訴權時效第八十條三分之一的話，會接續繼續進行他的時效。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
謝委員龍介：所以追訴權的時效就會繼續進行嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
黃次長謀信：他要停止審判期間超過刑法第八十條三分之一的期間。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
謝委員龍介：那他從哪一年開始停止？你剛剛有說了。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
黃次長謀信：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
謝委員龍介：秘書長，你知道他何時開始停止審判？ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：他現在停止審判有四個案件，那期間…… |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
謝委員龍介：對！那時間超過了嗎？次長，現在的追訴權是進行，還是不進行？ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
黃次長謀信：現在停止審判，當然追訴權是停止的。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
謝委員龍介：追訴權停止？ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
黃次長謀信：他是停止審判期間…… |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
謝委員龍介：那超過時效沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
黃次長謀信：這個要司法院依個案再去計算，但從刑事上看起來，目前是還沒有，但從個案上我不清楚，因為個案是法官要去判斷的，我不能夠代法官去判斷追訴權時效的計算。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
謝委員龍介：停止審判四件啦！到最後查扣的，我等一下再問你。陳水扁有疾病不能到庭，他都可以幫女兒出庭，做主持人、開節目、直播，笑咪咪的，他就不能到庭來出庭，如果是這樣，秘書長，這是什麼原因？ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：原則上這個還是屬於審判核心事項，基於審判獨立是由個案承審法官…… |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
謝委員龍介：審判獨立，你認為合理嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：本於權責來判斷。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
謝委員龍介：你認為合理嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：因為這個由個案的權責判斷…… |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
謝委員龍介：個案歸個案，不談個案嘛，你認為這種狀況合理喔？你不是口口聲聲都說要司法改革，你認為合理嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：因為基於審判獨立，那麼…… |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
謝委員龍介：審判獨立是很獨立嘛，已經獨立了好幾年了！ |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：不是，我們司法行政…… |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
謝委員龍介：他這種狀態下不出庭，你認為合理嗎？你個人認為合理嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：這個是由個案的承審法官依權責來判斷。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
謝委員龍介：你當作來這裡把我們「裝肖仔」！那你認為這個法官是恐龍嗎？還是把我們百姓當成傻瓜？ |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：這個是個案，由承審法官本於權責，屬於…… |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
謝委員龍介：我問你有沒有合理，你就在那邊避重就輕、答非所問，你還給我微笑，你故意來這邊「抓鰻」！ |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：沒有，我是很嚴肅啦，很嚴肅來看待這種問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
謝委員龍介：我們要來也要看很多資料，秘書長，每次我問你，你都這樣，你這樣讓臺灣人民對司法的改革失去信心，我沒有騙你！ |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：因為司法行政有一定不逾越…… |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
謝委員龍介：我跟你講，你們就是故意的啦！停止審判以後，他現在已經定讞的案子特赦了，然後停止審判到最後無法審判，這樣就變成追訴期過了，屆時剛好「脫手尾支七」，你們實在很厲害，你們做這種事情當作臺灣人都是瘋子就對了！ |
| gazette.blocks[52][1] |
那我再請問你，他個人停止審判，那其他的人呢？他也沒有生病，為什麼不能開庭？這是根據什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：這個還是屬於審判…… |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
謝委員龍介：沒有，根據哪一條啊？法律哪一條啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：個案的承審法官本於權責會來判斷。 |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
謝委員龍介：你們司法院有沒有在下級管考？ |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：因為司法行政有一定的分際。 |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
謝委員龍介：有沒有管考嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：我們當然…… |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
謝委員龍介：有沒有管考業務啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：這些當然都要管考的啦…… |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
謝委員龍介：一般法官的案件如果超過3個月沒有進行，你們就開始管考了嘛，行政管考，有沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：這個就恢復到…… |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
謝委員龍介：有沒有啦？ |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：就會管考嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
謝委員龍介：有嘛！那這個案子你們有沒有管考嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：這個管考有一定分際啦！管考跟司法行政之間我們有一定的分際在，當然…… |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
謝委員龍介：你有沒有對這個法官進行檢討啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：就回復到剛剛，這個都是屬於審判核心事項，審判獨立。 |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
謝委員龍介：你放了阿扁一個，其他的共犯也全部都一起放走，這樣不是放水，不然什麼叫放水？現在不談阿扁嘛，總統要特赦他嘛！難道總統是連其他人都特赦嗎？你已經比總統的特赦權還大，你赦了好幾個，總統也才特赦一個，對不對啦？ |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：向委員說明…… |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
謝委員龍介：現在連總統都不必發布特赦令，其他人都沒有罪了啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：向委員說明，如同剛剛說明的，這個還是回復到…… |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
謝委員龍介：個案？ |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：個案審判的部分。 |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
謝委員龍介：好啦，個案，你回去你家研究個案啦！秘書長，我們這樣沒辦法對話下去，你請坐、你請坐啦！拜託一下啦！以後你就不要再來立法院說要司法改革了，真的，你會漏氣啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[76][1] |
次長，檢察司有來嗎？司長嗎？次長，現在這個案件不法的所得已經執行完了嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
黃次長謀信：對，犯罪所得的部分幾乎執行完畢了。 |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
謝委員龍介：4個還沒確定的案件，就表示現在扣的錢都是那4個還沒確定的案件嘛，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
黃次長謀信：對，原則上是。 |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
謝委員龍介：部長怎麼沒來？ |
| gazette.blocks[81][0] |
黃次長謀信：部長沒來，剛剛有跟委員會報告了。 |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
謝委員龍介：我2個月前就在這裡問他了，你知道嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[83][0] |
黃次長謀信：我有看轉播，你問他是不是有接受到指示。 |
| gazette.blocks[84][0] |
謝委員龍介：對！我問說，依照特赦法第六條，總統有權力請行政院長要求業務單位來研議。我問他說，有去總統府做這個研議嗎？他說沒有；我說2月份有沒有？他說沒有；那1月份有沒有？他說有，有去過，1月13號選完之後有進去。 |
| gazette.blocks[84][1] |
我現在很慎重，你是常務次長嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[85][0] |
黃次長謀信：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[86][0] |
謝委員龍介：你要摸你的良心回答臺灣人民，我請教你，因為這是密件，他們都很愛用密件，不是你啦。我請教你，法務部有收到總統府的咨文說要研擬特赦陳水扁的案件嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[87][0] |
黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，整個法務部的公文基本上我都會看到，我到目前為止沒有收到、看到任何一件…… |
| gazette.blocks[88][0] |
謝委員龍介：每一件公文你都能看得到？ |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
黃次長謀信：原則上，除非是特殊密件，特殊密件有特殊處理，就我本身接觸的，我是沒有看到。 |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
謝委員龍介：你可能沒有看到？ |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
黃次長謀信：有可能我不知道。 |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
謝委員龍介：你有可能沒有看到。今天是113年5月15日，我很慎重跟你……為什麼我要問你這個問題？因為我很有把握有啦，但是我要問你，如果你個人有看到，你不能在這裡說沒有。 |
| gazette.blocks[93][0] |
黃次長謀信：我沒有，我百分之一千萬沒有看到。 |
| gazette.blocks[94][0] |
謝委員龍介：你個人沒有看到，但你有可能也看不到，是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[95][0] |
黃次長謀信：這個我就不知道。 |
| gazette.blocks[96][0] |
謝委員龍介：有沒有可能有公文，但你看不到？ |
| gazette.blocks[97][0] |
黃次長謀信：當然有可能有公文我沒看到，當然有可能。 |
| gazette.blocks[98][0] |
謝委員龍介：為什麼會這樣，你知道嗎？因為這很機密，1月份就處理了，但我現在相信你的，在立法院的公報將來會留下紀錄。 |
| gazette.blocks[99][0] |
黃次長謀信：沒問題、沒問題！ |
| gazette.blocks[100][0] |
謝委員龍介：陳水扁的案件現在有4件停止審判，他是什麼理由停止審判？ |
| gazette.blocks[101][0] |
黃次長謀信：這是司法院的業務，他是按照刑訴法第兩百九十四條…… |
| gazette.blocks[102][0] |
謝委員龍介：他說他生病所以不能審判，但他可以替他的女兒出庭打官司、可以主持節目、還可以邀請人去訪問，他有沒有要邀請我，我是不知道啦，他如果要邀請我去，我也可以去跟他說一下，恭喜他馬上得到特赦。這樣的話，為什麼不能出庭？當然，你會說這是法院的問題嘛，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[102][1] |
有關法院的認定，我現在要請教你，停止審判以後要怎麼樣可以繼續審判？ |
| gazette.blocks[103][0] |
黃次長謀信：訴訟法第兩百九十八條有規定，停止原因消滅的話，他當然可以，當事人本身也可以申請法院繼續審判。 |
| gazette.blocks[104][0] |
謝委員龍介：他也可以申請就對了。 |
| gazette.blocks[105][0] |
黃次長謀信：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[106][0] |
謝委員龍介：第兩百九十八條就是審判的原因消失了，法院應該繼續審判，對不對？然後當事人亦得申請繼續審判，請問有沒有這一條？ |
| gazette.blocks[107][0] |
黃次長謀信：有，剛才講的。 |
| gazette.blocks[108][0] |
謝委員龍介：那我請問你，檢察官是不是當事人？ |
| gazette.blocks[109][0] |
黃次長謀信：檢察官在訴訟法上的確是當事人。 |
| gazette.blocks[110][0] |
謝委員龍介：依照第兩百九十八條，他是不是當事人？ |
| gazette.blocks[111][0] |
黃次長謀信：看條文，如果指當事人的話，檢察官是當事人。 |
| gazette.blocks[112][0] |
謝委員龍介：沒有喔，我們主席在這裡，你不要…… |
| gazette.blocks[112][1] |
依第兩百九十八條，當事人得申請繼續審判，請問檢察官是不是當事人？ |
| gazette.blocks[113][0] |
黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，事實上這個個案在審理當中，公訴檢察官在個案上的確有表示意見，看是不是原因…… |
| gazette.blocks[114][0] |
謝委員龍介：他是不是當事人嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[115][0] |
黃次長謀信：他是，他一定有表示意見……原因是否消滅，請法院審酌。 |
| gazette.blocks[116][0] |
謝委員龍介：是就好，既然檢察官是當事人，他可以聲請法院繼續審判，請問法務部，為何你們一直以來都不聲請？ |
| gazette.blocks[117][0] |
黃次長謀信：我剛剛有跟委員報告了，我們公訴檢察官在個案上他有提請法官要注意原因是否已經消滅了。 |
| gazette.blocks[118][0] |
謝委員龍介：是否……應該要注意，你沒有聲請要繼續審判喔。 |
| gazette.blocks[119][0] |
黃次長謀信：他有沒有提一個聲請…… |
| gazette.blocks[120][0] |
謝委員龍介：你沒有聲請喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[121][0] |
黃次長謀信：對，跟委員報告，它是不是提一個聲請狀的形式，我不清楚，但個案上他的確有提請法官要注意這件事。 |
| gazette.blocks[122][0] |
謝委員龍介：有聲請還是沒有聲請，這是很簡單的事情，你可以跟本院說明嗎？有或是沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[123][0] |
黃次長謀信：我剛剛已經跟委員報告了，有沒有聲請這個形式我沒有把握，因為這是個案嘛，但是在個案上，我知道他有提請法官要注意是否原因已經消滅這個事情，公訴檢察官有做到這點。 |
| gazette.blocks[124][0] |
謝委員龍介：那停止審判的這4個案件，不法所得總共有多少，你知道嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[125][0] |
黃次長謀信：因為他還沒有判決確定，沒有辦法去估他的不法所得，因為他沒有判決確定，但是我們起訴的時候…… |
| gazette.blocks[126][0] |
謝委員龍介：沒有辦法估，你為什麼給人家扣那麼多錢？ |
| gazette.blocks[127][0] |
黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，起訴的時候，二次金改的部分是4億。 |
| gazette.blocks[128][0] |
謝委員龍介：那個時候多少錢？ |
| gazette.blocks[129][0] |
黃次長謀信：4億。 |
| gazette.blocks[130][0] |
謝委員龍介：那是國泰嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[131][0] |
黃次長謀信：對，國泰併世華。 |
| gazette.blocks[132][0] |
謝委員龍介：那買官的呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[133][0] |
黃次長謀信：買官一千多萬吧。 |
| gazette.blocks[134][0] |
謝委員龍介：陳敏薰買官的？ |
| gazette.blocks[135][0] |
黃次長謀信：一千多萬…… |
| gazette.blocks[136][0] |
謝委員龍介：那罰鍰呢？就這個案件、這4個案件…… |
| gazette.blocks[136][1] |
4億，那你為什麼扣他8億？ |
| gazette.blocks[137][0] |
黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，因為他還有刑的部分，可能有罰鍰，他可能有……不是罰鍰，罰金！他有可能有罰金。所以不法所得會宣告多少、罰金刑多少…… |
| gazette.blocks[138][0] |
謝委員龍介：你在今天下班以前，把你們針對這4個案子所有不法所得總共羅列了多少數目送來給本席，可以嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[139][0] |
黃次長謀信：還是我們送給委員會？ |
| gazette.blocks[140][0] |
謝委員龍介：可以，送到委員會。 |
| gazette.blocks[141][0] |
黃次長謀信：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[142][0] |
謝委員龍介：我最後一個問題請問，有關陳水扁被赦免這個案子，褫奪公權有沒有一併赦？ |
| gazette.blocks[143][0] |
黃次長謀信：褫奪公權是不是及於的話，就要看赦免的範圍。 |
| gazette.blocks[144][0] |
謝委員龍介：這是總統的特權，所以我現在很明確問，畢竟17日就要特赦了。 |
| gazette.blocks[145][0] |
黃次長謀信：赦免有兩種，看是「刑」之執行的赦免，還是「罪刑」都赦免？罪刑都赦免的話，當然他的褫奪公權會被赦掉。 |
| gazette.blocks[146][0] |
謝委員龍介：我知道。現在只赦刑，但刑有牽扯到褫奪公權。 |
| gazette.blocks[147][0] |
黃次長謀信：刑的部分，如果赦免只赦免「刑」的部分，按照刑法第三十七條第五項，是在赦免後開始計算他的…… |
| gazette.blocks[148][0] |
謝委員龍介：他不會講只赦刑的部分，現在就是你們已經作業到這一次，本次蔡英文總統對前陳總統的特赦─刑，但褫奪公權的部分有沒有作業？ |
| gazette.blocks[149][0] |
黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我剛才已經說了，如果只赦免「刑」的部分，則褫奪公權的計算期間開始，係依刑法第三十七條第五項規定，赦免後開始計算他的褫奪公權。所以原來確認判決褫奪公權多久，就從那個時間開始起算。 |
| gazette.blocks[150][0] |
謝委員龍介：所以赦免以後開始計算？還是赦免以後，連褫奪公權也沒有了？這很重要！因為很多人支持阿扁再選啊！下一任就要把賴清德幹掉啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[151][0] |
黃次長謀信：所以我說赦免分兩種，如果總統要赦免的話看是赦免哪一種。 |
| gazette.blocks[152][0] |
謝委員龍介：現在因為你們是業務單位，這件事在你們手上作業，所以部長今天沒來真的不對！因為他知道啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[153][0] |
黃次長謀信：赦免的範圍要總統決定，如果有赦免的話。 |
| gazette.blocks[154][0] |
謝委員龍介：如果要赦免他的褫奪公權，你現在也可能不知道？但17日可能會公布有，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[155][0] |
黃次長謀信：我沒有辦法預測。 |
| gazette.blocks[156][0] |
謝委員龍介：就是這樣！我說可能性就這樣，是不是？如果總統特意的話，連褫奪公權也赦的時候，你可能到今天都還不知道，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[157][0] |
黃次長謀信：對，我不知道。 |
| gazette.blocks[158][0] |
謝委員龍介：感謝主席。 |
| gazette.blocks[159][0] |
主席：接下來我們請傅崐萁委員發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
218 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-36-22 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
吳宗憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
莊瑞雄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
謝龍介 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
傅崐萁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
林思銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
沈發惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
吳思瑤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
147 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-05-15 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1134501 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1134501_00004 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「總統行使特赦後，該案未沒收之不法所
得及停審未定讞案件之處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢 |
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1134501_00003 |
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主席我請秘書長及處長來麻煩秘書長、次長委員好委員好秘書長我請教你這個藍水秘政總統停止審判的規定是什麼因為生病啦依照什麼規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
45.092 |
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是刑事訴訟法就對了刑事訴訟法我現在心中要請教我跟你們說你們跟蔡英文齁就是民修戰鬥暗渡城牆你們在拚一架阿兵的特赦兼託罪的大陰謀我希望司法院不能做幫兇啦你們叫不無責來齁我現在請教你 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
74.417 |
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停止審判的期間,對所款的事項,是有繼續進行,還是沒有繼續進行?沒有啦,這你的檢問勒?欸欸欸,主席啊,他是屬案院的秘書長勒? |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
96.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
98.346 |
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停止審判期間,追訴權實效是進行還是不進行? |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
123.446 |
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139.769 |
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因為這種齁有時候要很精準啦要很精準啊所以各位專科的好朋友各位台灣的鄉親我剛剛講了蔡英文跟陳帥扁甚至包括秦德兄你們就是在進行這個大陰謀不是只有特赦而已耶今天如果只有特赦我們還勉強接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
150.998 |
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152.459 |
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你把他拖出來你知道嗎亂來捏停止審判期間就是我們其他的追溯期你的追溯權 時效是有在進行還是沒有進行拜託 你是我的秘書長好 來書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
182.807 |
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192.657 |
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追訴權時效會因為起訴跟停止審判而停止進行。那停止進行到一定期間之後,停止期間會消滅,會再繼續進行。達到追訴權時效80條的三分之一的話,會繼續進行它的時效。 |
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199.483 |
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221.516 |
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所以追訴權的時效就會繼續進行嗎?他要停止審判期間超過刑法80條的三分之一那他從哪一年開始停止?你剛剛有說了秘書長你知不知道他講是開始停止審判?這個他現在有停止審判有四個案件這樣時間超過了嗎?秘書長現在現在的追訴權 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
229.696 |
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256.543 |
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是進行還是不進行?現在停止審判當然追訴前是停止的追訴前停止?那超過時效沒有?這個是要司法院他的個案再去計算但從形式上看起來目前是還沒有但個案上我不清楚因為個案是法官他要去判斷我不能夠帶法官去判斷這個追訴前是要計算停止死刑了這狗尾仔齁這查庫的我等一下再問你齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
258.339 |
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273.637 |
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那陳水扁有疾病不能到庭喔他都可以幫女兒去出庭啊做主持人、朱祁鈴啊開節目啊、直播啊、笑BB啊然後他就不能到庭來出庭那這樣秘書長這是什麼原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
282.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
308.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
這個還是 原則上這個還是屬於審判核心事項啦齁那基於審判獨立齁審判獨立有個案成審法官你認為合理嗎本於前者來判你認為合理嗎那因為這個由個案來個案歸個案不談個案嘛你認為這種狀況合理欸你不是口口聲聲都說被司法改革你認為合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
309.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
326.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
因為基於審判獨立齁審判獨立啦是很獨立嘛已經獨立了好幾年了他這種狀態下不出庭你認為合理嗎?你個人認為合理嗎?這個是由個案的審審法官骨離前者來判斷阿你是認為這個法官是恐龍嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
332.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
333.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我是很嚴肅來看待這種問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
358.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
386.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我們要來也要看很多資料啊秘書長你每次我問你你都這樣你這樣給台灣人民對司法的改革失去信心我沒便宜因為司法行政有一定不意願我跟你講你們就是故意的啦你們就是故意的停止審判以後他現在已經定讞的案子特赦了然後停止審判到最後沒得審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
388.186 |
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407.985 |
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啊你大變成追溯奇軌啊是高端脫臭不及漆你們實在有夠厲害的你創這個抗逃你動作台灣人都笑的就對了那我再請問你他個人停止審判啊那其他的人呢他也沒有生病為什麼不能開庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
410.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
411.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那你們司法院有沒有在下級管考? |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
430.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
452.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
有沒有管考嗎?有沒有管考業務啊?法官一般法官的案件如果超過三個月啊沒有進行啊,你們就開始管考了嗎?行政管考有沒有?有沒有啦!有嘛!那這個案子你們有沒有管考嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
454.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
483.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那這個這個管考那就是說這個有一定分際啦有一定分際司法行政管考跟司法行政之間我們有一定的分際在啦分際在那當然那你有沒有對這個法官進行檢討啊那就回復到剛剛這個都是屬於審判核心事項你放了阿扁一個其他的共犯全部也都一起放走這樣不是放罪沒什麼叫放罪啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
486.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
490.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
現在不談那邊嘛 總統要特赦他嘛 難道總統是連其他人都特赦嗎你已經比總統的特赦權還大了 你赦了好幾個 總統也才特赦一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
501.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
530.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
對不對啦這個就向委員說明你現在連總統都不必發布特赦令其他人都沒有罪了啦喔就向委員說明這個就就剛剛說明的就是說這個還是回憶到個案個案審判好啦好啦你個案你回去你老公叫個案啦喔秘書長我們這樣沒辦法對話了你先坐你先坐啦拜託啦以後你人忙再來立法院說要司法改革啦真的啦你會漏氣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
532.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
561.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
處長 那個檢察司敢不敢來喔齁齁齁 處長你 齁現在這個 處長 案件齁不法的所得已經執行了嗎對 犯罪所得的部分已經執行 幾乎執行完畢啦啊 市的案未確定的案件 這樣就表示現在考的錢 都是那市的案未確定的案件嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
562.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
584.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
對 原則上是這樣喔 補充怎麼沒來喔 部長沒來 剛剛有跟委員會報告了我 我兩個月前我就在這裡問了喔你知不知道我有看轉播 你問他是不是有接受到指示對 我問說依照特赦法第6條 總統有管理請行政委員要求任務單位來延期 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
593.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
602.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我問他說有去總統府做這個經濟嗎?他說沒有!我說二月份有沒有?他說沒有!那一月份有沒有?他說有!有!有過了!選了的時候,這月十三選了的時候,有立委,好來!我現在又很心中,你是政府處長嘛!對!你要問你的良心,把台灣人民回答!我請教你齁! |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
621.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
626.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
因為這是密件啦,密件啦,他們都很愛用密件,不是你啦我請教你,法務部有收到總統府的諮問,說要延期特赦單位列席的案件的公文嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
639.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
663.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
跟委員報告整個法務部的公文基本上我都會看到我到目前為止沒有收到看到每一件公文你都能看得到原則上那除非特殊密件對特殊密件有特殊密件就我本身最初的是沒有看到你可能沒有看到有可能你有可能沒有看到今天是113年5月15日我很慎重跟你為什麼我要跟你問這個問題因為我很有把握有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
664.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
685.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
阿但是我要問你你個人如果你有看到你不能在這裡說沒有我沒有我百分之一千萬沒有看到你個人沒有看到但你有可能也看不到是不是這我就不知道沒有就是如果是密切就是你有沒有可能沒有公文但是你看不到當然有可能有可能我沒有看到當然有可能有可能當然有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
686.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
706.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
為什麼會這樣你知道嗎?因為這是很機密啦一過分就處理了啦但我現在相信你的在立法院的公報將來會留下記錄啦沒問題沒問題但最近的案件現在有四件嘛停止審判對那這樣它是什麼理由停止審判? |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
708.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
725.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
他是按照司法院的業務啦 但按照刑訴法294條所以說他有判罰嘛 所以不能審判嘛那這樣他可以替員長出庭去判官司 可以主持節目還可以邀請人去訪問 他不知道要邀請誰 我是不知道啦他如果要邀請我去 我有怎麼可以來跟他說一下 共識一下 讓他在場特赦 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
733.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
739.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
如果這樣為什麼不能出庭?當然你會說這是法院的問題嘛,對不對?來如果這樣法院的問題我現在要請教你,停止審判以後,要怎麼繼續可以再審判? |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
749.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
778.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
訴訟法298條規定他停止這個原因消滅的話他當然可以那當事人他轉身也可以申請法院來繼續審判喔 因為他可以申請就對了好 298條就是審判的原因消失法院應該繼續審判對不對然後當事人亦得申請繼續審判請問有沒有這一條那我請問你檢察官是不是當事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
780.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
792.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
來檢察官他在訴訟法上他的確是當事人?298條他是不是當事人?看條文 他是當事人的話檢察官他是當事人?我們主席在這裡喔 你問298條這個當事人得申請繼續審判請問檢察官是不是當事人? |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
802.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
819.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
呃 各位報告事實上齁 這個個案在審理當中檢察官公訴檢察官在個案上他的確有表示意見 呃 看這是不是原因他是不是當事人嘛對 他是 他一定有表示意見是不是因事本消遣而被法院審訟那既然檢察官是當事人 他可以申請法院繼續審判請問法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
822.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
836.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
為何你們一直以來都不申請?跟委員報告 我剛剛有跟委員報告了我們在個案 我們公務檢察官有在個案上他有提醒法官是否要注意是否原因是已經消滅了是否 應該要注意喔 你沒有申請繼續審判喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
838.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
866.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
你沒有申請喔對 跟委員報告他是不是提一個申請狀的形式我不清楚但個案上他的確有提醒法官要注意這件事你有申請沒有申請這很簡單的事情你可以跟本意說明嗎有或是沒有我剛已經跟委員報告了有沒有申請這個形式我沒有把握因為他個案嘛但是在個案上我知道他有提醒法官要注意這一個是否原因已經消滅這個事情公訴法 公訴檢察官他有做到這一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
866.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
889.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那停止審判的這四個案件不法所得的都算有多少你知不知道因為他還沒有判決確定他沒有辦法去估他的不法所得啦因為他沒有判決確定但是我們起訴的時候沒有辦法估你為什麼給人家扣那麼多錢起訴的時候我們的二次經改的部分是4億那是國泰嘛那買官的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
897.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
913.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
陳敏興買官的那罰還呢?就這個案件這四個案件啦四億那你為什麼扣他八億?因為他還有可能刑的部份他有可能罰還啊他可能不是罰還罰金他有可能罰金啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
914.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
915.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
陳水扁被赦免此奪公權有沒有一併赦? |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
945.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
966.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
呃,此頭公權是不是即宜的話,這要看赦免的範圍這是總統的特權,那我現在很明確問你,十七就要寫啊?因為我們赦免有兩種嘛,他是刑之執行的赦免,還是罪行都赦免罪行都赦免的話,當然他的此頭公權會被赦掉我知道嘛,現在只赦刑,但是刑有牽扯到此頭公權嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
966.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
968.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
他不會講指涉刑的部分他現在就是你們已經作業到這一次本次蔡英文總統對錢城總統的 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
983.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
1002.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
特赦、刑、刺駝公權的部分有沒有作業?跟委員報告我剛才已經說了他如果指赦免刑的部分他刺駝公權的計算期間開始要從刑法37條第5項規定赦免後開始計算他的刺駝公權所以他原來確定辦決有刺駝公權多久從那個時間點開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
1003.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1027.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所以赦免以後開始計算還是赦免以後連此奪公權也沒有這很重要因為我要支持很多人要支持阿扁還在算阿下一任就要把賴清德幹掉阿所以我說看他赦免了 剩下兩種看總統如果有赦免是赦免哪一種如果現在因為你是業務單位嘛在你們手上作業的嘛補到今天沒來就做不對阿嘛因為他知道阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1029.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1029.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
感謝主席 |