| IVOD_ID |
152440 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152440 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-35-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
19 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-13T11:00:56+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-13T11:08:25+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:07:29 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17349d25e550c2f54f00a2603b6fafef9a002d94006c6d412c4db6b03fad438834045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
賴士葆 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:00:56 - 11:08:25 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。） |
| gazette.lineno |
460 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
賴委員士葆：（11時）謝謝主席及各位先進。有請國安局徐副局長及田中光次長，兩位一起來。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請徐副局長，還有田次長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
賴委員士葆：我請教兩位長官，國安會跟兩位的單位，即外交部、國安局是什麼關係？國安局先講。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
徐副局長錫祥：國安會是我們的指導上級…… |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
賴委員士葆：是你上級單位，是不是？請教外交部，是不是你上級單位？國安會是不是外交部的上級單位？ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
田次長中光：依政府組織法來說，外交是屬於總統職權…… |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
賴委員士葆：當然、當然，但是總統旁有個幕僚單位─國安會啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
田次長中光：國安會提供總統國家安全政策的…… |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
賴委員士葆：所以國安會秘書長、國安會沒辦法管到你們？不會吧？他透過總統一樣可以指揮你們吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
田次長中光：我沒有這個意思說他管不到我們！按照組織法是這樣子，我們會相當尊重及遵循國安會給的指導。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
賴委員士葆：請問國安會有沒有常常跟你們有文書往來？有沒有？外交部？ |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
田次長中光：有。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
賴委員士葆：有嘛！直接發文給你們嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
田次長中光：有、有。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
賴委員士葆：有啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
田次長中光：我們也有發文。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
賴委員士葆：對不對？如果他下一次發文叫「林北」，吳釗燮在網路平臺說「林北」，你們沒有去看一下？不是Lin bay好油，他說「林北要戰到底」，要戰徐巧芯戰到底啊！這樣的國安會秘書長以後發文給你寫「林北」…… |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
田次長中光：有見諸文字嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
賴委員士葆：媒體一大堆，怎麼沒有呢？你都沒在看報紙嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
田次長中光：公文書沒有看到啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
賴委員士葆：公文沒有講，但他在網路平臺這樣寫啦。請教副局長，他以後是你的長官，他講「林北」你覺得怎麼樣呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
徐副局長錫祥：報告委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
賴委員士葆：他在網路平臺裡面講「林北戰到底」！ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
徐副局長錫祥：剛好我是讀法律的，每個文字根據不同的人、不同的時間，它要表達的內容可能評價上都不是很一致。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
賴委員士葆：「林北」是不是粗話？我問你是不是粗話？ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
徐副局長錫祥：有時候會…… |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
賴委員士葆：是不是粗話？我問你是不是粗話？ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
徐副局長錫祥：所以我跟委員報告，單就這個字來評斷是不是粗話，在法院的實務見解不會這麼認定。現在有很多……我講出來可能太不禮貌了，像有時候他媽的是口頭禪，法官也會認為這不是刻意侮辱人的意思，所以同樣的文字在不同的場合講出來，內容不能一致，不能單就一句話來認為是不是粗話。我想在法院這邊可能有所保留。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
賴委員士葆：所以吳釗燮講「林北」你可以接受？ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
徐副局長錫祥：我沒有看到全文，所以很難評斷。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
賴委員士葆：你媒體讀一下就有了，媒體記者一堆在這裡，他說「林北戰到底」，看了實在傻眼！以前只要有人講這話，人家會說「爆粗口」、「爆粗話」，「林北」這樣講，「教歹囡仔大細」！這麼大一個官，要接國安會秘書長，居然爆這樣的粗口，好嗎？次長，好嗎？他是你長官，你當然不敢講話，對不對？你如果講話，人家委員說你要篡位！我看你是個知書達禮的人，你覺得講「林北」好嗎？我請問你！次長，不敢評論長官的話？ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
田次長中光：當然。這是長官的話，我們不會批評，但我們還是要看他在什麼場合講的！如果說是在…… |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
賴委員士葆：公開場合！如果私底下就算了！私底下的口頭禪就算了，對不對？但他很大，講「林北」，怎麼會在公開場合、網路平臺這樣講呢？應該很不好啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
田次長中光：應該不是在政府機構的一些場域講的話！ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
賴委員士葆：他在Threads平臺裡面講的話，非常不好啦！然後他要帶領國安會，我就不知道以後你們國安會怎麼跟他搭配？國安會現在看到的吳釗燮是道地的戰狼，是不是？請問次長，現在來講，520之前有沒有可能再被斷交？原來部長講最可能有兩個國家，一個叫海地，一個叫瓜地馬拉，可不可能？ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
田次長中光：跟委員報告…… |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
賴委員士葆：危險不危險？ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
田次長中光：部長好像沒有提到這兩個國家的名字，他是說有兩個國家有危機。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
賴委員士葆：外面猜測是這兩個。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
田次長中光：外面猜測我不便置喙，但短期之內應該沒有這個憂慮，長期我們會非常、非常關注。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
賴委員士葆：請教副局長，現在5月了，520之前或者之後，短時間內外交方面有沒有被斷交的危機？ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
徐副局長錫祥：我們尊重外交部的說法。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
賴委員士葆：你們有沒有掌握到情資？ |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
徐副局長錫祥：以我們掌握的情資來說，目前還沒有這樣的跡象。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
賴委員士葆：再請教外交部，我們不追求正式邦交國了，我們追求一個叫……你們真的很會換詞彙，叫「價值外交」，什麼叫價值外交？次長講一下吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
田次長中光：價值外交就是臺灣現在所擁有、全世界所尊重的一個價值：民主、自由、人權，我們的…… |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
賴委員士葆：當然可以講價值外交、文化外交，什麼外交都可以，但最重要的是：要邦交國啊，不然外交部成立幹什麼？我們一個國家就是要有正式的邦交國，而且越多越好，越多人承認我們越好。現在退縮了，因為外交國不斷減少，所以換一個名詞「價值外交」，臺灣追求的民主、自由、人權，讓全世界來支持我們，這叫「黑龍轉桌」，你知道嗎？外交部的成績不好，所以只好轉這樣子！吳釗燮任內斷交這麼多國，他還好意思繼續當部長？還要做國安會秘書長？還要講「林北」？我們真是服了他了！不過站在政黨政治的立場、政黨競爭的立場，我們歡迎吳釗燮繼續當官。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
主席：時間關係，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][1] |
接下來請麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍、麥玉珍委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][2] |
請鄭天財委員、鄭天財、鄭天財委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][3] |
請王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][4] |
請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][5] |
請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][6] |
請張啓楷委員、張啓楷、張啓楷委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][7] |
請邱志偉委員上臺質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
384 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-35-19 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
馬文君 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
羅美玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
徐巧芯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
黃仁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
林楚茵 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
沈伯洋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
王定宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
陳培瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
林憶君 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
洪申翰 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
329 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-05-13 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1134401 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1134401_00013 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備
質詢 |
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有請國安局的徐副局長以及田中光次長兩位一起請徐副局長還有田次長我請教兩位長官這個國安會跟兩位的單位跟外交部、國安局什麼關係來國安局先講 |
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國安會是我們的指導的上級...是你上級單位嘛請教外交部是不是你上級單位?是不是?國安會是不是外交部的上級單位?我們依這個政府的組織法來說外交部的是屬於總統的職權當然當然但是總統旁邊有個幕僚單位啊國安會是提供總統對於國家安全的一些政策的 |
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所以對國安會秘書長這個國安會沒辦法管到你們不會吧?他通過總統就一樣可以指揮你們我沒有這個意思說他管不到我們我這按照組織法是這樣子我們會相當尊重以及遵循國安會的指導那國安會有沒有常常跟你們有文書的往來? |
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有沒有 外交部 有 有嘛 有有 直接發文給你嘛 有有 我們也有發文報告 對不對那再下發文如果下一次發文叫拎杯這樣啊 這個吳釗燮啊 吳釗燮在網路平台一直說拎杯啊你們沒有去看一下 |
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111.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
不是林北好友他叫林北啊要站到底啊要站徐曉新站到底啊這樣的國安委秘書長以後發文給你寫林北那個報文有建築文字嗎媒體一大堆怎麼沒有呢你都不看不見公文書沒有看到啊是嘛公文沒有我講公文沒有他的在網路平台這樣寫啦來來來請教副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
135.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
136.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
他以後是你的長官啊是他講林北你覺得怎麼樣呢報告委員好他在網路平台裡面講林北咱到底剛好我是讀法律的 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
152.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
165.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
每個文字根據不同的人不同的時間他要表達的內容可能評價上都不是很一致所以林北是不是出話我問你是不是出話 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
166.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
169.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
所以我跟委員報告單就這個字來評斷他是不是粗話在法院的實務見解不會這麼認定現在有很多包括我可能太不禮貌了有時候什麼他媽的是口頭禪 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
186.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
213.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
法官也會認為說這個不是有刻意的侮辱人的意思所以不同的這個同樣的文字在不同的場合講出來的內容不能一次就單一句話說是不是粗話我想這樣子可能在我們法院這邊所以吳釗燮想林培你可以接受我是沒有看到全文所以我很難評斷阿你媒體讀一下就有了阿這裡面媒體記者一堆在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
215.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
224.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
他就臨杯 戰鬥敵 喔實在是 看得容易啊以前 其他人講這話人家講 喔爆出口 爆出話 臨杯 是這樣這個假派 他們大小咧 這麼大的一個官 要接國安委秘書長居然爆出他的出口 感冒 市長啊 感冒 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
240.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
245.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
可是你長官當然你不敢講話啊!對不對?等一下你講話人家委員說你要篡位!是不是?來,次長講,我看你是這個知書大理啊!是不是?你覺得講林北豪嗎?請問你?次長,不敢評入長官的話是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
265.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
283.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
當然就是長官的話我們不會批評但是我們還是要看他在什麼場合講的他公開場合他如果私底下就算了你說私底下、私底下、口頭禪怎麼樣就算了對不對他很大這林北公開場合他網路平台這樣講勒很不好啦應該不是在政府機構的一些場域講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
294.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
309.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
他在Threaded平台裡面講的話非常不好啦這個東西然後他帶領國安會整個國安會我就不知道以後你們這單位怎麼跟他搭配國安會現在看到的吳釗燮到底的戰狼是不是現在來講我請問次長啊520之前有沒有可能再被斷交原來部長講的最可能兩個國家一個在海地一個在瓜地馬拉 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
324.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
348.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
跟委員報告好像部長沒有提到兩個國家的名字他是說有兩個國家有危機那外面猜測是這個外面猜測我不必言之會但是短期之內應該沒有這個憂慮長期我們會非常非常關注那個副局長520之前或者之後短時間520就五月了 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
351.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
358.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
外交方面有沒有被斷交的危機?有沒有?我們尊重外交部的說法你們掌握到的情勢有沒有?要講話是不是?我們掌握的情勢目前還沒有這樣的跡象 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
366.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
379.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
現在是不是在請外交部請交外交部我們正式幫交國不追求了我們要追求一個叫換我金高很會用詞彙叫做價值外交什麼叫價值外交來來來市長講一下吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
385.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
406.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
價值外交就是台灣現在所擁有全世界所尊重的一個價值,民主、自由、人權,我們的…如果,那個當然,價值外交、文化外交,什麼外交都可以,但是最重要的,要邦交國啊,不然外交部成立幹什麼?我們一個國家就是要有政治的邦交國,越多越好,越多人承認我們越好,而且退縮了,因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
410.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
425.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
外交不斷地,外交國不斷地減少了,所以換一個名詞說我駕駛外交,追求台灣,追求民主、自由、人權,全世界來支持我們,這個叫歐陵世度啦,你知道嗎?就自己外交的,外交部的成績不好,所以只好轉這樣子,吳釗燮任內斷交了這麼多國,他還好意思繼續當部長,還要做國安會秘書長,還要講林北,我們現在是福洛克啦,不過, |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
439.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
442.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
站在政黨政治的立場,政黨競爭的立場,我們歡迎吳釗燮繼續當官。 |