| IVOD_ID |
152098 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152098 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-02 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-19-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
10 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-02T11:58:17+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-02T12:05:32+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:07:15 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db137b521aeb93ffb48e12ebde737ab3c1955be169921a0a7170ab1c07276b9cfa75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
賴士葆 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:58:17 - 12:05:32 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查：
一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。
二、本院委員柯志恩等17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。
三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。
四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。
五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案。
六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。
七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。
八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。
九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。
十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。
十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。
（詢答及處理，委員郭國文等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）【4月29日、5月1日及2日三天一次會】） |
| gazette.lineno |
732 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
賴委員士葆：（11時58分）謝謝主席及各位先進，有請經濟部王部長及財政部李次長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請王部長、李次長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
王部長美花：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
賴委員士葆：兩位長官，我們來看一下這個案子，原來的130%是民國105年通過的，對不對？民國105年。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
王部長美花：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
賴委員士葆：因為它前面有條條框框，說經濟要到一定的條件，GDP要成長到多少，這個細節是經濟部訂的，還是財政部訂的？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
李次長慶華：我們財經兩部一起會商訂的。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
賴委員士葆：一起會商，訂得「傷鹹」啦！總共只有啟動兩次，總共稅損多少？李次長說一下，稅損多少？啟動兩次的稅損。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
李次長慶華：金額很有限。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
賴委員士葆：金額多少？你說一下，我們聽一下。 |
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李次長慶華：第三十六條之二，因為它有不同的項次。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
賴委員士葆：全部加起來，lump sum。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
李次長慶華：第一項大概是兩千多萬元，第二項是兩百多萬元，第三項是一百多萬元。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
賴委員士葆：我給你數字啦！你都沒有加，我替你加，兩次加起來總共稅損8,400萬，中華民國的稅收每一年都是兩兆多、多、多、多、多，你兩次的稅損就八千多萬，所以你要關心中小企業，為基層的勞工來加薪，都是騙人的啊！130%在這裡，結果你們兩次啟動，就是因為門檻訂很高，只有啟動兩次。105年到現在113年，8年的時間只有啟動兩次，只有啟動兩次！ |
| gazette.blocks[13][1] |
我們看到數字，大家都知道這個數字，員工的薪水占GDP的比例，在先進國家裡面，我們算先進國家，我們幾乎是最低的，占43%，大部分的錢都給老闆拿走了，給財團的老闆拿走了，基層的員工分不到啊！這個要看清楚，三分之二的勞工是領不到平均薪資的，平均薪資現在是四萬二，68%的人領不到。這麼好的一個加薪的法案，就是因為財經兩部，本來我以為只有財政部，原來經濟部也插一腳，你們就訂那個條件，框框在那裡，所以總共稅損八千多萬，然後你們計較八千多萬，然後現在還不敢再放，只放150%，你預計150%的稅損是多少？次長講一下，如果是150%，稅損多少？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
李次長慶華：報告委員，其實我們這一次很重要的一個修法是把原來那些條件都修掉了，都刪除了，這是一個很大的修正。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
賴委員士葆：好，那你預估這樣一來，150%會稅損多少？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
李次長慶華：這一次修正以後，基本上…… |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
賴委員士葆：稅損多少？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
李次長慶華：我們減的稅收大概是…… |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
賴委員士葆：稅損多少？ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
李次長慶華：如果是以低推估，大概是2億左右。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
賴委員士葆：2億而已，但是有多少人可以受惠？ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
李次長慶華：可不可以麻煩經濟部說明一下？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
賴委員士葆：試算的，有多少人可以受惠？ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
王部長美花：我們的預估，高推估的話，兩個項目加起來大概是兩萬多人。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
賴委員士葆：兩萬多人。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
王部長美花：低推估的話，大概是九千多人。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
賴委員士葆：好，2億，這個帳很好算，稅損就是2億，我們一次把它拉到200%，了不起3億啊！稅損3億，那你說2萬人，我們可以到3萬人，為什麼不要做這樣的事情？我聽不懂啊！大家都一直講臺灣貧富差距越來越嚴重、越來越嚴重，那麼最近的數字也是這樣子，怎麼辦？那就讓基層的員工有機會加薪，這麼好的一個案子，你們也願意從善如流，這樣放一點、放一點、放一點，130%變成150%，步調太低太少了，就一次到底200%，部長，可以嗎？200%。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
王部長美花：謝謝委員，等一下在個案討論的時候，我們會就相關的占比再做討論。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
賴委員士葆：不是，你要先講一下啊！你贊成啊！反對的，後面那個人可能有意見啊！次長，講一下，2億到3億的稅損有要緊嗎？有要緊嗎？有要緊嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
李次長慶華：報告委員，主要是因為我們這次修法是完全無條件的，只要你加薪，微幅的加薪也可以適用，可能我們要考慮一下…… |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
賴委員士葆：本來就應該無條件、本來就應該無條件。 |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
李次長慶華：對，但是幅度如果過高，對於那些即使只對企業加薪一點點，是不是也要給它這麼優惠，可能要考量一下，後續能否達到我們的政策目的。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
賴委員士葆：加薪金額有關係喔！加1萬元與加5,000元是不一樣的喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
李次長慶華：是，我們是覺得如果…… |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
賴委員士葆：你怕什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
李次長慶華：不是，其實這個稅收損失真的不是很大，但是我們真的覺得必須要達到它的政策效果。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
賴委員士葆：政策絕對有效果，200%的效果絕對比150%好，而且你把框框拿掉了，申請的人絕對會越來越多，現在你是估2萬，我認為只要調到200%，絕對會超過3萬。3萬人而已，我們現在有120萬家中小企業，請問王部長，中小企業的從業人員有多少？ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
王部長美花：中小企業從業人員是九百多萬人，沒錯。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
賴委員士葆：九百多萬啊！只有3萬人受惠？ |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
王部長美花：但是，報告委員，我們評估過符合資格可以來算的大概是20萬家。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
賴委員士葆：20萬家？ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
王部長美花：對，大概是20萬家。 |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
賴委員士葆：20萬家能有多少錢，我就已經算過了，財政部說稅損是2億，調成200%之後，了不起就是3億、4億，好不好？去年就超收了三千六百多億，對不對？你還計較這個？部長、次長，真的，你們要看到臺灣現在是這麼扭曲的經濟社會，說GDP多讚又多讚，結果是有錢人越有錢、窮人越窮，這個是一點點而已，表示我們的決心而已，老實講受惠的人也不會太多、也不會太多，他要有加薪才能夠成嘛！老闆要撐得住才會幫員工加薪，鼓勵他，本質上他要能夠賺錢，沒賺錢也沒辦法加薪。真的，我建議主席，我們就一次從150%增加到200%，這樣比較快，年輕的220%，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
主席：請賴瑞隆委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
510 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-19-10 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
邱議瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
張智倫 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
郭國文 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
林岱樺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
呂玉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
陳培瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
羅廷瑋 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
419 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-05-02 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1133801 |
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1133801_00007 |
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立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
審查：一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員柯志恩等
17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬
具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中
小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業
發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例
部分條文修正草案」案；七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正
草案」案；八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及
第四十條條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、
第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展
條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例
部分條文修正草案」案 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
0.083 |
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9.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
兩位長官,我們來看一下, |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
30.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
52.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
這個案子原來130%是民國106年通過的嘛對不對民國106年因為他前面有條條框框說這個條件啊要經濟到一定的條件就GDP啊要成長到多少這個細節就是是經濟不定還是財政不定 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
54.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
55.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我們財經兩部一起會上庭。一起會上庭。 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
69.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
95.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
金額...金額很有限啊...金額多少?你講一下啊!問題啊這個!三十六條之二...因為它有不同的項次全部加起來!我們不算!我們不算!第一項大概是兩千多萬元然後第二項是...第二次!兩百...兩百多萬元然後第三項的話是...我跟你說!叔叔啦!你都沒有加我給你加啦!兩次加起來總共稅損八千四百萬啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
98.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
121.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
從華民國的稅收每一年都是兩兆多多多多多,啊你稅損就八千多萬兩千,所以你要關心你這個中小企業為基層的勞工來加薪,都騙人的啊。一百三十七啊,結果你們兩次啟動,就是因為門檻電容高只有啟動兩次。一百零五年到現在一百一十三年,八年的時間只有啟動兩次。 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
123.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
146.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
只有啟動兩次,我們看到數字大家都知道這個數字,我們的員工的薪水佔GDP的比例,在先進國家裡面,我們說先進國家呢,我們金稅低了13%,大部分的錢都給老闆拿走了,給財團的老闆拿走了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
147.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
173.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
bicy成的員工分不到啊,這個看清楚,平均的員工,平均勞工,他的薪資三分之二的勞工是領不到平均薪資的。平均薪資現在四萬二,百分之六十八的人領不到。這樣子的這麼好一個所加薪的法案,就是因為財經兩部,本來我以為就財政部,原來經濟部也差一腳。 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
174.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
184.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
你們就那個條件了,空空在那裡,所以總共稅損八千多萬,然後你們計較八千多萬,然後現在還不敢再放。 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
185.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
212.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
只放一百五,你一計一百五能夠稅損多少?來來來,次長公子,如果你的一百五稅損多少?是報告委員,其實我們這次修法是很重要的一個修法,是把原來那些條件都修掉了,都刪除了。對,這是一個很大的修正。那這次修正以後,基本上我們減的稅收大概是,如果是以低推估大概是兩億左右。兩億啊!兩億而已啊,各位! |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
215.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
221.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
但是有多少人可以受惠?是算的!有多少人可以受惠?兩萬多人!好!兩億啊!各位可以這個帳都很好算的喔!稅損就是兩億! |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
239.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
257.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我們一次把它拉到200%,了不起3億啊!所以損3億,那你說2萬人,我們可以到3萬人,為什麼不要做這樣的事情?我聽不懂啊!這個大家都一直講台灣貧富差距越來越嚴重,越來越嚴重!那麼最近的數字也是這樣子,然後再怎麼辦? |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
258.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
273.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那就讓基層的員工有機會加薪。這麼好的一個案子,你們也願意從善如流,一百三變一百五,步調太低太少了,就一次到底兩百八,可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
277.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
282.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
謝謝委員,那等一下照個案討論的時候,我們就相關的這個暫評再去討論。 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
292.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
314.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
bicyn 罷文其實主要是因為我們這次修法是完全無條件的,只要你加薪,微幅的加薪也可以適用,所以這個可能我們要考慮一下就是說,但是如果你幅度過高是不是對那些就是說一般他即使只對企業加薪一點點,是不是要給他這麼優惠,可能要考量一下,因為這個後面成果達到我們的政策目的啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
322.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
322.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
議員柯志恩等19人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
339.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
341.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
359.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
372.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
但是跟委員報告去適用到這一個的部分我們有估過大概合資格可以來算的大概是二十萬家啦。二十萬家能夠多多少錢。我的算過財政部說稅損兩億變成兩百趴了不起三億四億好不好。每年去年超收三千六百多億。 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
384.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
411.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
對不對,你要計較這個,這個東西啊。部長、市長,真的,你們要看到臺灣現在這麼扭曲的一個經濟社會,所GDP法戰、獨法戰,結果有錢人越有錢,窮人越窮。這個,這個是,這個也是一點點而已啦,表示你的,我們的決心而已喔。這個,老實講,受惠的人也不會太多啦,也不會太多,他要有加薪才能夠成。 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
412.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
431.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
|