| IVOD_ID |
151557 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151557 |
| 日期 |
2024-04-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-15-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
13 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-04-22T11:36:04+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-04-22T11:45:10+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:09:06 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3364f22f0e5a19f302697e999b50eca937cdcb4691eb09bf4e211c02b0a35ec6cc75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:36:04 - 11:45:10 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計8案。
二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計1案。
三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。
四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案。） |
| gazette.lineno |
672 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
黃委員國昌：（11時36分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請秘書長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
黃委員國昌：秘書長好。今天行政院預算的解凍報告裡面提到有關於吹哨者保護法的事情，我看了報告，我必須要說，我非常震驚！吹哨者保護法，民進黨政府從2017年司改國是會議作成結論說要定，定到今天，我在院會質詢院長的時候，他告訴我還在研議，結果你們今天交出來的報告，秘書長，你覺得在行政院院長卸任以前，吹哨者保護法的報告提得出來嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：我的瞭解是，它在今年3月4日有再送到院，羅政委有密集地開會…… |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
黃委員國昌：我知道你們不斷地在審查啦！我的問題是，5月19日之前提得出來嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：我們朝這個方向來努力，但是…… |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
黃委員國昌：但是有困難，是不是？你有困難就說有困難嘛！有沒有困難？ |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：我的瞭解是羅政委還在持續地溝通，跟外界…… |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
黃委員國昌：好，我再問，你說：考量公部門制度較完善，清廉度要求較高，為了尊重公司治理，政策定調為公部門先行，私部門採取行政指導。請問這個政策何時定調、由誰定調？ |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：目前我的瞭解是，它的法案內容是以公部門的揭弊者保護作為主軸…… |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
黃委員國昌：你不用跟我講…… |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：私部門的部分，現在…… |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
黃委員國昌：今天你們提了書面報告到內政委員會來，行政院提這個報告就要負責，說政策定調是公部門先行，私部門再看看，用行政指導。這個政策何時定調、由誰定調？這是我的問題，請回答。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：我的瞭解是，目前法務部提出來就是這個內容，至於協商的過程，我可能還要再進一步地瞭解。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
黃委員國昌：今天行政院提給立法院的報告，做了這麼重大的政策宣示，到底是由誰定調、何時定調，這件事非常、非常重要。為什麼重要？司改國是會議的結論是，吹哨者保護法的部分是公私部門都要定，還是只要定公部門就好了？是公私部門都要定，還是只要定公部門就好了？ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：據我們的瞭解，當時大家的期待是希望公私部門都能夠有吹哨者…… |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
黃委員國昌：那不是大家的期待，那是司改國是會議的結論！ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：對，就是司改國是會議裡面與會的期待…… |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
黃委員國昌：第二個，行政院提出來的聯合國反貪腐公約第二次國家報告裡面，內容說的是公私部門要一起定，還是可以指定公部門？這份報告是你們行政院寫的啊！你們在國家報告裡面敢這樣寫，結果今天送到內政委員會來的報告，政策方向一百八十度大轉彎，誰有這麼大的權限，無視司改國是會議決議的內容？誰有這麼大的權限，把國家反貪腐公約最新的國家報告直接丟到垃圾桶，說我們現在只要定公部門，不要定私部門？所以我才問你，到底是誰做的決定、什麼時候做這個決定、憑什麼做這個決定？ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：並不是私部門就不受監管或是不入法，但這是一個循序漸進的過程，由公部門先行。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
黃委員國昌：你們當初拖了半天，所有的行政官員給搪塞的理由是私部門要訂、範圍要弄多大、是不是適合於上市櫃的公司，問題很複雜，大家還在討論，結果沒有跟社會報告、沒有跟社會溝通，推翻司改國是會議決議的內容，把自己聯合國反貪腐公約的國家報告丟到垃圾桶，做這樣的政策宣示出來，所以我才要問嘛，誰做的政策決定、誰要負責、憑什麼做這個決定？您回去瞭解清楚了以後，請行政院正式發一個新聞稿跟全體國人解釋，可以嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：我想這個部分並不是把私部門排除在外，這是一個循序漸進的立法過程，公部門先行，如果順利…… |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
黃委員國昌：你們上面不是寫政策定調，你們現在就是要做公部門嘛！我講白話文，就是私部門沒有在吹哨者保護法的範圍內，我有說錯嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：對，但是未來不排除會把私部門加進來。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
黃委員國昌：我跟你講，未來的事情就不要再講了，你的未來是多久的未來？ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：公部門先行，如果整個制度順暢，沒有社會的疑慮跟後遺症…… |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我還是一樣嘛，公部門先行、私部門不納入的這件事情，誰做了政策決定？基於什麼理由？誰要負責？行政院會後發新聞稿跟全體國人說明，可以嗎？這個要求有很過分嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：我們可以再來做說明。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
黃委員國昌：好，我接下來要請教你，就是有一個很皮的人叫張綱維，因為你接下來要接交通部部長了嘛。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
黃委員國昌：我直接先跟你檢舉，我為什麼說他很皮？2019年遠東航空無預警停飛，被交通部廢證了，當初張綱維政商關係很好，找了「一拖拉庫」人想要幫他解套，看可不可以不要廢證，還去找了廖燦昌來幫他「喬」貸款，現在廖燦昌詐貸的事情，因為遠東航空的事情被起訴，張綱維自己掏空遠航的事情也被起訴。然後我們從檢察官2020年7月的起訴書才發現，有人檢舉張綱維後臺很硬，原來是真的，除了找廖燦昌以外，後面還找了當初行政院副院長林錫耀，檢察官有跟監喔！起訴書裡面的內容，指證歷歷、指證歷歷，張綱維是仗誰的勢啊？行政院副院長幫他出面找廖燦昌搞詐貸，然後自己遠航被廢證以後，現在很皮啊！我今天就要跟準交通部部長檢舉，他很皮啊！松山機場遠航的總部賴著不拆、賴著不拆，還讓我們的交通部去聲請強制執行。秘書長，這件事情你有沒有掌握？ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：這個部分，我大概也是從包括相關的文件跟媒體的報導有所瞭解…… |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
黃委員國昌：你全部都是從媒體瞭解的？ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：如果就任之後，我會再進一步地深入瞭解。不過我知道這個案子整個是在…… |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
黃委員國昌：張綱維有沒有跟你提過這件事？ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：整個是在司法審查的階段。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
黃委員國昌：張綱維有沒有跟你提過這件事？ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：沒有。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
黃委員國昌：你認識張綱維嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：我認識這個人。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
黃委員國昌：你認識這個人？ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
黃委員國昌：他找你見面的時候都沒有講這件事？ |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：沒有。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
黃委員國昌：是沒有見面還是有見面沒有講這件事，說清楚。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：有一次我在一個朋友的聚餐裡面，知道有這個人的存在。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
黃委員國昌：只有在這個時候知道這個人的存在？ |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：是，他…… |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
黃委員國昌：真的嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
黃委員國昌：真的嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
黃委員國昌：我現在給你機會講清楚喔！因為現在我們的國會制度不夠齊全，在國會說謊是沒有關係啦，隨便亂講都沒有關係，不用負責任，所以我們現在才在推國會改革，未來在國會的時候，說謊就有責任，這一題我請秘書長回去回想，想清楚喔，你上任交通部部長的時候，我一定會問，我一定會問，今天我先把ground rules鋪好了，請你回去回想清楚，張綱維這一個人在行政院到底是借誰的勢，可以嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
李秘書長孟諺：可以。 |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[55][1] |
再來請麥玉珍委員質詢，謝謝。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
52 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-15-13 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
吳琪銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
張宏陸 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
黃捷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
蘇巧慧 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
王美惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
黃建賓 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
丁學忠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
高金素梅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
張智倫 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
李柏毅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
徐欣瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
許宇甄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
麥玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
莊瑞雄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
1 |
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2024-04-22 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1133201 |
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| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計 8案；二、處理113年度中
央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府
總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案；四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨
產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案 |
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來,謝謝主席,麻煩有請秘書長。委員好。秘書長好,今天行政院預算的結論報告裡面提到有關於追悼者保護法的事情。我看了報告,我必須要說,我非常震驚。追悼者保護法,民進黨政府從2017年,從2017年,撕改國事會議,做成結論說要定, |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
32.967 |
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51.367 |
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定到今天我在院會質詢院長的時候他告訴我還在研議結果你們今天交出來的報告你們今天交出來的報告是秘書長你覺得在行政院院長卸任以前吹哨者保護法的報告提的出來嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
53.438 |
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71.068 |
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我的了解是他在今年的3月4號有再送到院。我知道,我們不斷地在審查啦。我的問題5月19號之前提得出來嗎?我想我們朝這個方向來努力,但是...但是有困難是不是?沒有困難就說有困難嘛! |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
72.591 |
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94.148 |
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有沒有困難?呃我的了解是羅政委還在持續的呃溝通我再問你說考量公部門制度較完善清廉度要求較高為了尊重公司治理政策定調為公部門先行私部門採取行政指導請問這個政策何時定調?由誰定調? |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
97.068 |
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120.655 |
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目前我的了解是他的法案的內容是以公部門的接避者保護做為主頭你不用跟我講今天你們提了書面報告到內政委員會來嘛行政院提這個報告就要負責嘛說政策定調是公部門先行私部門再看看用行政指導這個政策何時定調由誰定調 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
123.001 |
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146.19 |
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這是我的問題請回答我的了解是目前法務部提出來就是這個內容那至於這個協商的過程我可能還要再進一步的了解今天行政院提給立法院的報告做了這麼重大的政策宣示到底是由誰定調何時定調這件事非常非常重要為什麼重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
147.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
155.458 |
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思改國事會議的結論崔少哲保護法的部分是公司部門都要定還是只要定公部門就好了? |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
156.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
185.496 |
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是公司部門都要定還是只要定公部門就好了我們的瞭解當時大家的期待是希望公司部門都能夠有配照品那不是大家的期待啦那是思改國際會議的結論啦思改國際會議的期待行政院提出來的聯合國反貪腐公約第二次國家報告裡面報告的內容說要定的是公司部門要一起定還是可以只定公部門這報告是你們行政院寫的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
187.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
199.584 |
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你們在國家報告裡面敢這樣寫結果今天送到內政委員會來的報告政策方向180度大轉彎欸誰有這麼大的權限無視施改國是會議決議的內容誰有這麼大的權限 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
207.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
236.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
把國家反貪腐公約的國家報告最新的國家報告直接丟到垃圾桶所以我們現在只要訂公部門不要訂私部門所以我才問你嘛所以我才問你嘛到底是誰做的決定什麼時候做這個決定憑什麼做這個決定並不是私部門就不受監管或是不入法但是這是一個循序漸進的過程因為當初拖了半天所有的行政官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
237.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
249.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
給唐賽的理由是私部門要定範圍要弄多大是不是限於上市櫃的公司問題很複雜大家還在討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
251.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
270.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
結果沒有跟社會報告沒有跟社會溝通推翻撕改國事會議決議的內容把自己聯合國反貪腐公約的國家報告丟到垃圾桶做這樣的政策宣示出來所以我才要問嘛誰做的政策決定誰要負責憑什麼做這個決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
274.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
281.911 |
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您回去了解清楚了以後請行政院正式發一個新聞稿跟全體國人解釋可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
283.407 |
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309.333 |
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我想這個部分就是他並不是把私部門排除在外而是這是一個循序漸進的立法的過程公部門先行那如果順利你們上面不是寫嗎對政策定調你們現在就是要做公部門嘛我講白話我就是私部門的沒有在吹哨子保護法的範圍內嘛我有說錯嗎對但是未來不排除會把私部門加進來我跟你講未來的事情就不要再講了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
310.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
315.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。我接下來要請教你就是說有一個很皮的人叫張剛偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
340.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
368.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
因為你接下來要接交通部部長了嘛我直接先跟你檢舉阿我為什麼說阿他很皮2019年遠東航空無預警停飛被交通部廢證了當初張剛維阿政商關係很好找了一堆阿股人想要幫他來去解套看可不可以不要廢證然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
370.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
396.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
還去找了廖燦昌來幫他喬貸款現在廖燦昌炸彈的事情因為遠東航空的事情被起訴囉張剛維自己偷空遠航的事情也被起訴囉然後我們從檢察官2020年7月的起訴書才發現有人檢舉張剛維後台很硬啊原來是真的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
397.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
423.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
除了找廖燦昌以外後面還找了當初行政院的副院長林錫耀檢察官有跟監喔起訴書裡面的內容指證歷例指證歷例張剛維是仗誰的事啊行政院副院長幫他出面找廖燦昌搞炸彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
425.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
446.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
然後什麼然後是遠航被廢證了以後現在很皮阿我今天就是要跟準交通部部長檢舉阿他很皮阿雙山機場遠航的總部阿賴著不拆賴著不拆還讓我們的交通部阿去申請強制執行秘書長這件事情你有沒有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
449.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
470.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這個部分我大概也是從包括相關的文件跟媒體的報導有所瞭解你全部都是從媒體瞭解的目前的那如果就任之後我會再進一步的深入瞭解不過我知道這個案子整個是在張崗偉沒有跟你提過這件事整個是在司法的審查的階段張崗偉沒有跟你提過這件事沒有你認識張崗偉嗎我認識這個人你認識這個人是 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
476.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
479.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
498.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
523.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我現在給你機會講清楚喔因為現在我們的國會制度不夠齊全啦在國會說謊是沒有關係啦隨便亂講都沒有關係不用負責任啦所以我們現在才在推國會改革嘛未來在國會的時候說謊就有責任喔這一題我請秘書長回去回想想清楚喔你上任交通部部長的時候我一定會問 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
525.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
542.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我一定會問今天我先把光入了鋪好了是請你回去回想清楚張剛維這個人在行政院到底是借誰的事可以嗎可以好謝謝好謝謝黃國昌委員再來請麥玉珍委員質詢謝謝 |