| IVOD_ID |
150577 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150577 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-28 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
10 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-28T09:48:43+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-28T09:59:43+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8fc09d97f3151fdf6e4a601c445737e5eef14c05a86b4f80f8ba9b0039caa7a661ad045f983e26e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
謝龍介 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:48:43 - 09:59:43 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-28T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部、教育部、衛生福利部、內政部警政署就「青少年法治教育與犯罪防制成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預算關於法務部及所屬主管預算凍結項目共6案。
【其中各案如經院會復議，則不予審查、處理】） |
| gazette.lineno |
641 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
謝委員龍介：（9時48分）主席，我請部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：有請蔡部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
謝委員龍介：還有教育部跟警政署的局長。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
主席：還有教育部跟警政署的局長。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
蔡部長清祥：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
謝委員龍介：部長早。部長，關於少年犯罪，我請教你，詐欺跟毒品有關嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
蔡部長清祥：多少有關係。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
謝委員龍介：應該很有關係，這個警政署比較清楚，詐欺跟毒品，只要染上毒品，後面就變成詐欺，詐欺是最輕的、最方便的、最可以取得利益的，然後再去買毒品。本席在直播的時候，就有很多鄉親因遭詐騙然後call in進來，在此先給你看一個1分鐘的影片，裡面有兩個案例，這都是直播時鄉親打電話進來談他們是在什麼情況下被詐騙的。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][1] |
（播放影片） |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
謝委員龍介：第二個案例就是山道猴子的一生的翻版，這些租賃公司讓你用很簡單的方式就借到一台車，從這中間所衍生出來的詐騙。第一個案例，他被騙了160幾萬，但他很厲害，可以追回來130萬，在我所知道的詐騙案中，就這件追回來的錢最多，可是在追錢回來的過程中，關於這個犯罪所得，法院竟然要他打民事訴訟來追回。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][1] |
再來，我剛才請教你毒品跟詐欺有關係嗎？其實兩者關係有夠大，周局長，你曾經在臺南市當局長，而我在臺南市的時候，每任警察局長上任時，我都提到校園毒品氾濫真的有夠嚴重，大家都知道很嚴重，但都沒辦法查緝，警方是心有餘力不足，為什麼？因為教育部、學校不讓警方進去，不讓警方進去校園查，所以警方只能在外面監控，局長，是這樣嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
周局長幼偉：報告委員，那個是有校園自治，但事實上我們是有三級的聯繫管道。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
謝委員龍介：不要再提校園自治，你剛才跟我說，有校園聯繫機制？ |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
周局長幼偉：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
謝委員龍介：那完全失效啦！如果有效，今天校園毒品不會這麼氾濫，坦白說，我們應該要勇敢面對，這個問題法務部、警政署、教育部大家都不面對，你們有跨部會來處理嗎？校園如果不解禁，警方的警力、警方的辦案絕對沒辦法進去，它在校園孳生以後，他就變藥頭了，變成藥頭之後出了社會就詐欺啊！殺人啊！其實看你們的報告就知道，像去年青少年的嫌犯就增加了16%；如果是12歲到18歲，則是12.94%，而且是快速的成長。現在我們小孩的出生率呈現遞減的狀況，但犯罪率卻一直上升，所以針對青少年犯罪防制，法務部、教育部跟警政署有什麼樣的機制呢？千萬不要再用以前那一套了。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
蔡部長清祥：因為檢察官是負責犯罪的偵查，青少年法治教育要加強，這就要靠我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
謝委員龍介：司法院來這裡，我也跟他說了，檢察官「會呼雞袂歕火」抓了一大堆，警察也抓了一大堆，送進來後都是輕判，你應該有聽到call in的民眾談到應該要修法，因為判兩年以上的真的有夠少，尤其是第一次犯或第二次犯的，大部分都叫他回去，都不用關了，所以外面的車手才會越來越多了，他的兵源是源源不絕，反觀我們國軍的募兵卻一個都募不到，詐騙集團在募兵就是了，不用登報每天自動報名的有夠多。國軍募兵制士兵一個月領三十幾K，詐欺車手一個月七十幾K，就看你要當這個兵，還是當那個兵？這是一個很重要的問題。今天你們來報告青少年犯罪防制，部長比較有經驗，也比較有機會，這是跨部會！針對警政署、法務部在校園毒品防制上有何具體做法？ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
蔡部長清祥：高檢署負責執行，針對每一波的緝毒專案……看要針對什麼而定。我們也曾掃蕩校園藥頭，所以我們會持續來做這項工作。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
謝委員龍介：績效不彰啊！因為教育部堅持不讓警力進入校園，這點有辦法突破嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
吳司長林輝：警方如果查獲的話，都會通報校園。我們針對…… |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
謝委員龍介：會查獲就是因為在外面與社會人士接洽被抓，至於校園裡，警方根本沒辦法把手伸進去，你聽不懂嗎？局長，該怎麼要求教育部？ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
周局長幼偉：這部分其實就是跟委員剛剛談到報告一樣，分局跟學校都有在聯絡，有問題…… |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
謝委員龍介：那是聯絡假的！這點我在臺南都討論過了，學校不願意媒體報導這種事！大家都說要保護學生，那根本是騙人的，其實是在害學生！家長放心地把小孩送去學校，認為那裡是最安全的地方，結果小孩在學校沾到毒品，我們該怎麼對家長交代？你的孩子、我的孩子都有可能遇到這種事，因為我們認為校園是最安全的地方，這問題不跨部會討論，無法突破的話，那麼毒品犯罪，尤其青少年接觸毒品後，為了毒品可以源源不斷而成為詐欺集團的一員，那麼問題就永遠沒辦法解決！部長，有具體的解決辦法嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
蔡部長清祥：我們會再跟司法院商量，希望判決不要太輕，至於學校方面，我們也會跟教育部來聯絡，大家共同來努力…… |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
謝委員龍介：你們針對校園毒品防制提案，我們也提案，如果不採行霹靂手段……老實說，我曾跟賴清德討論過這問題，大家都很重視，但只要碰到教育部和校園保護就沒辦法……不論司法機關、警政署或警察都無法進入校園！現在有社會人士提倡校園自主，請問什麼校園自主？我的孩子送到我認為最安全的地方，結果居然沾到毒品？這樣還談什麼校園自主？又讓多少家長痛心？請部長與教育部共同提案，我們在立法院也會提案…… |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
蔡部長清祥：我們可以建議，不過還是需要行政院統合，這終究需要行政院來做跨部會協調…… |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
謝委員龍介：這是一股隱形的力量…… |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
蔡部長清祥：我們可以擔任幕僚作業。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
謝委員龍介：賴清德在臺南時覺得這樣做有道理，結果他當行政院長時還是無法執行，現在他當選總統！我們若不積極採行霹靂手段，以對抗某部分人壓力的話……我可以告訴你，校園犯罪以毒品犯罪為最大宗，而且南臺灣比北臺灣更嚴重！南臺灣比北臺灣更嚴重，只是黑數沒有浮現罷了，讓家長心裡七上八下！以前學校是最安全的地方，所以把孩子送到學校，只要車子載到學校門口就差不多可以放心了；現在不是，聽到學校打電話來，心臟都快跳出來了！部長，我們共同來努力，怎麼樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
蔡部長清祥：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
謝委員龍介：草案多久可以出來？ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
蔡部長清祥：我跟其他部會來商量看看…… |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
謝委員龍介：三個月？ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
蔡部長清祥：不一定要那麼久，如果有方法…… |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
謝委員龍介：三個月內，好不好？我等了幾十年了，沒差。三個月內可以嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
蔡部長清祥：可以…… |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
謝委員龍介：提一個草案出來，我們共同來努力，好嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
蔡部長清祥：中央反毒會報也有在做這件事，各部會大家來協調合作。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
謝委員龍介：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
蔡部長清祥：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
主席：感謝謝委員，謝謝部長。接下來有請陳委員俊宇發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
116 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-36-10 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
沈發惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
謝龍介 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
莊瑞雄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
林思銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
沈伯洋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
柯志恩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
羅廷瑋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
傅崐萁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
吳思瑤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
陳培瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
張雅琳 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
吳沛憶 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
林月琴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
吳宗憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
劉建國 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
1 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-03-28 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1132201 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1132201_00002 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
一、邀請司法院、法務部、教育部、衛生福利部、內政部警政署就「青少年法治教育與犯罪防制
成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預算關於法務部及所屬主
管預算凍結項目共6案 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1132201_00001 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
14.578 |
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19.74 |
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主席我請那個部長還有教育部跟那個警政署我們局長對好喂老臧齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
38.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
38.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
本身齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
69.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
73.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我希望那個什麼詐騙修法可以修得快一點我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
99.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
126.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
每天都看到這麼多人都被詐騙實在是看了有點難過像我自己也有被騙剛開始那個法官他叫我去打那個民視庭然後我覺得說你們詐騙集團把錢騙走然後要我們去打民視庭我就覺得有點太操控了吧你這個是犯罪所得欸你還叫我去打那個什麼民視庭我覺得然後我當庭的時候我就跟你被騙多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
127.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
128.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
兩三百塊啊?兩三百萬? |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
154.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
158.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
二十幾歲怎麼會有兩三百萬被騙?第二個案例齁,這個案例大概就是三道活指的一生了,這個翻版。 |
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174.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
193.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
所以這裡的主任公司一台車很簡單讓你坐這是中間延伸出來的詐騙第一個案例是他去騙了一百六十幾萬結果呢 這麼厲害他可以拖一百三十萬回來我所有住在的詐騙就對了 剛才這間拖太多錢回來來 拖的時候發現說你要去拋民俗叫他去拋民俗過世就對了犯罪所定他要拖回來叫他去拋民俗過世這一個 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
204.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
217.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
因為凍結的關係我剛才請教你說凍結及早期有關係有關係有夠大這局長你知道你在台南市做局長我在台南市的時候所有每一年的警察局長來我都要求說好行的凍結有夠嚴重大家都知道很嚴重都沒有辦法去查 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
229.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
234.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
警方便心憂於內部教育三民因為教育部整個學校不愛讓警方入理啊!校園不給警方入理查!所以警方只能在外圍監控啊!就像這樣啊!報告委員,那個是有校園自治啦!但事實上我們有三級的那個聯繫管道啊!沒有啦!不能叫校園自治啦!你剛才跟我說校園聯繫機制就對了啦!那完全失效啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
256.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
260.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
若有效就在於今天效應的特聘不會這麼煩惱。我們坦白說,要勇敢面對嘛。這個問題法務部、經政署、教育部大家沒得面對。你們看保肥有怎麼處理嗎?效應若沒得改進啦,近鋒的緊力、近鋒的氾濫絕對沒辦法進去。阿在效應出聲之後,我要講,它就變成了頭髮。 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
283.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
302.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
有頭阿伯出社會就炸棄啊、殺人啊。你看看你們的報告就對了,好像古年喔。古年青少年的憲法就增加16%了。如果算到12月到18月,是12.94%了。那種快速的行動,我們的年輕人靠…孩子出事是一個低價。結果, |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
313.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
314.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
因為今早官司府這個犯罪偵查 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
332.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
353.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
啊犯...青少年法治教育要加強啊這就要扣分了你的診察我...我也...司法院來我也跟他說了嘛對不對檢察官遭到會扣結不可以啊抓一大堆警察抓一大堆三年來都是欽判嘛你看不看那扣分的說叫我們就要修法看兩檔醫生的時候有夠久的尤其啦第一篇第二篇差不多都叫回去都不用說了 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
362.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
377.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
所以已經開始處理的車手越來越多了他的兵員是源源不斷啦我們國軍的募兵這幾個都募不到詐騙集團的募兵就對了每天一半不用看報紙主動報名有夠多我們的國軍一個位三十幾K啦平啦募兵制啦詐欺業的車手一個位七十幾K啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
391.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
393.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
啊你看你要去做那個兵還要做這個兵所以這是一個很重要的問題你今天來報告青少年犯罪的風地嘛不然你比較有經驗嘛你比較有機會啦 看補費啦針對經濟事務法有報告有什麼具體的做法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
414.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
422.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
高檢署是負責執行,我們都會針對每一波的緝毒專案,看是要針對什麼,也要針對校園的藥頭做一個掃蕩,所以我們也會持續來做這項考驗。績效不沾嘛,搞不好你們的建築沒有要經歷入口風,我就突破無了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
438.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
443.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
警方如果查獲都會通報校園我們針對查獲他就是在外面跟社會人士交接你聽到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
456.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
482.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這個部分其實就是跟委員剛才談報告一樣其實分局跟學校都有在聯絡那有問題的話 那個聯絡機會你聽我們在台南我已經都討論過了嘛好運他就不願意好運發生這個事情叫媒體報出來嘛大家都說保護核心保護核心那是騙的 那是害核心一個家長很放心的把孩子送去學校是最安全的地方結果孩子在學校去賣毒品 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
488.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
502.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我們不能對他交代。你的叫我的叫都有可能遇到的。合法是最安全的地方。不然這個看補費沒有討論,這個沒有突破啦。這個凍結的犯罪,尤其是青少年的凍結後變成早期的集團,會完完不斷。因為我們沒有辦法改革,有一個具體的辦法沒有。 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
513.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
534.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
呃,再來跟司法院來參詳啦齁,在判我上齁,不要想再輕啦,啊,這個好好的事情齁,我們也跟教育部來聯絡啦,齁,大家共同來努力來補貨啦。您提一個案,我們提一個案啦,齁,針對豪風毒品的訪地,沒有用配那個手段,我告訴你,這條我跟大廠直接給他討論過了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
536.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
547.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
大家都很重視,但是大家如果卡到告就報告候群,報復起來,都沒有辦法,包括司法機關,包括經濟署、警察,都沒有辦法入獄。啊現在一個社會人士出來講,哦,候群組織,候群是要組織什麼?我把,孩子上來我認為最安全的地方,孩子就去罰罪了,還叫候群組織。你看多少卡到外面聽到心? |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
562.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
587.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
您有願意跟政府共同提出一個方案嗎?我們立法院在這裡有什麼方案可以建議不過我還是要跟行政院來統合啦跨部會的協調還是由行政部這有一個溫馨的理由我們來擔任幕僚主委六年前在台南的時期覺得這很合理結果做行政議長時也是沒辦法執行現在凍算總統了 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
592.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
605.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我們沒有直接去做法律的手段就對了沒有去對抗一部分人的壓力就對了 毫無犯罪 尤其這個最大宗的毒品就對了我再跟你講 南台灣比北台灣比較嚴重南台灣比北台灣比較嚴重啊 這些黑素 黑素都沒有出來 黑素都沒有出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
615.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
620.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
而家中審判五月十月﹐孩子送入於校園﹐以前是最安全的﹐車載到校園門口差不多就放審了﹐現在不是﹐聽到校園電話的審判噼噼錯﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
627.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
647.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
否定我們共同來勞力,你看到嗎?好!你多久?多久你一個車輛出來?好啊,我跟其他的部會大家參詳嘛!三個月啦!三個月啦!不一定要那麼久啦!我們有空緩!三個月來嘛!我等幾十年也沒差,三個月來好不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
648.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
649.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
感謝教育部長 |