| IVOD_ID |
150506 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150506 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-35-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-27T11:56:16+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-27T12:03:49+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:07:33 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d554b441a78598fdf6f9597c3f3f044368f8ba9b0039caa7a6b530526dddbaabce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
賴士葆 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:56:16 - 12:03:49 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用的現況及發展」，併請行政院國土安全辦公室列席，並備質詢。） |
| gazette.lineno |
707 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
賴委員士葆：（11時56分）謝謝主席、各位先進。有請國防部邱部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
邱部長國正：賴委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
賴委員士葆：部長，我看到媒體報導有關於你對中國大陸在內蒙畫一個全尺寸的博愛特區要進行轟炸的事情，你有你自己的看法，我讀了一下，你有一句話還蠻有意思的。用白話文講，你說你對大陸也可以模仿一個地方做侵擾，你這樣講。用白話文講，它劃定我們這一塊準備打我們，我們也把它劃一塊準備打他們，有沒有這回事？你是不是這樣子講？ |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
邱部長國正：我沒有講我們也劃一塊打他們。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
賴委員士葆：但是你就講模擬某一個地方做侵擾啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
邱部長國正：模擬某一個地方或是國家來做軍事訓練的話，這都可以模擬啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
賴委員士葆：是啊？它模擬打我們，我們當然模擬打它啊！你不要嗎？這才是軍人的本色啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
邱部長國正：我沒有這樣講，這沒有意義嘛！別這個苗頭幹什麼？做戰鬥教練，不管城鎮或野外，他動作還是這樣子嘛！何必要搞一個假城鎮？假城鎮也有啊，我們有這種場地，但是以假城鎮代表北京或南京，那倒沒有這樣設定，沒有這個必要。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
賴委員士葆：沒有這個必要？ |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
邱部長國正：沒有這個必要嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
賴委員士葆：沒有這個必要，感覺氣勢矮了一點點！ |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
邱部長國正：委員這樣講的話，你看我們國家目前有哪幾個地方，如果它搞個什麼，我們也要搞什麼…… |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
賴委員士葆：最少要劃一個地方，我們也模擬一下讓他知道我們也有在準備，那不是更好嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
邱部長國正：委員如果覺得這樣很有意思，那你們去別苗頭，我們軍中戰訓本務設定這種狀況…… |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
賴委員士葆：好，所以就防守就對了。你是守的概念還是攻的概念？現在講不對稱的戰爭，就是我雖然小，但是我有機會打你的要害，也是個做法。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
邱部長國正：是這樣子啊！我們是有反應…… |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
賴委員士葆：它一定就用飛彈打，對不對？我們攔截率多高？對它的飛彈？ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
邱部長國正：我們有各種不同的飛彈。 |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
賴委員士葆：請問你最好跟最壞，可以攔截它的飛彈。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
邱部長國正：最好攔截、最方便就是它還沒發射就攔截掉了。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
賴委員士葆：它還沒發射，你就知道了？ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
邱部長國正：我們期望這樣，你剛才講最好跟最壞嘛！期望的就是…… |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
賴委員士葆：最好是百分之百，那最差呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
邱部長國正：最差的話，將近幾公里把它給處理掉嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
賴委員士葆：有沒有把握只要進來臺灣一定打下來，有沒有把握？ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
邱部長國正：沒有什麼把握不把握的，好不好？我們這個戰略誰能打包票？誰敢打包票？但我說最壞的打算…… |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
賴委員士葆：要讓老百姓安心啊，要讓老百姓安心啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
邱部長國正：安心我們要能夠腳踏實地…… |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
賴委員士葆：你說來一個打一個，來兩個打一雙…… |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
邱部長國正：要能夠做得到才能夠有把握讓人家安心。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
賴委員士葆：那你的意思是做不到喔？ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
邱部長國正：我不是做不到，我沒有把握啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
賴委員士葆：沒有把握做到？ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
邱部長國正：美軍也不敢有把握喔，哪個國家都不敢有把握，哪有說…… |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
賴委員士葆：有個將軍講攔截率大概七成啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
邱部長國正：那他有學問啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
賴委員士葆：你沒有學問吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
邱部長國正：對，我沒有學問啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
賴委員士葆：我覺得你很有學問耶，你是在講真話…… |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
邱部長國正：我們不要這樣講打嘴炮，這樣打個包票、做個承諾，我沒這個膽量，我也沒這個必要，我們講求很務實的，把我們的戰略準備做好。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
賴委員士葆：好，那我就跟你講務實的。今天主題是無人機，國防部準備要花錢，9月20日到25日，UAS系統跟C-UAS系統，就是反無人機系統跟無人機系統來臺灣，結果你報告沒有寫，你的報告只有寫MQ-9。事實上，這兩個系統也是要錢，請問報告為什麼不把這兩個系統放進來？你現在的53.4億有沒有包括這兩個系統？你知道我意思嗎？有沒有包括？你就知道我多用功，你只有寫MQ-9，沒有UAS跟C-UAS系統，沒有！來，講一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
李司長世強：報告委員，沒有包含C-UAS。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
賴委員士葆：也就是說，9月20日到25日，美國的軍售團來了，我們準備花錢買這個，準備花多少錢？講大概就好。 |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
李司長世強：報告委員，沒有這個案子。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
賴委員士葆：可是就要來啦，這是美方的資料咧，美國商務部公布的，沒有這個建案？ |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
李司長世強：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
賴委員士葆：所以你們就不寫了。好，最後一個問題，主席不要催我，我好不容易來這裡，以後不會來了──是比較少來，不要說不會來，我讓你站久一點好了。現在大家提到無人機，部長以前在這裡講的，很勇喔！實體侵犯第一級，對無人機是不是一定打？ |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
邱部長國正：不是啊！它只要到我們領空…… |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
賴委員士葆：一定打？ |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
邱部長國正：對啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
賴委員士葆：好，那現在來了！ |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
邱部長國正：打是之一啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
賴委員士葆：現在一個問題來了，你講的是過去無人機沒有線，現在我們看烏克蘭戰爭使用了有線的無人機，俄軍的中國製10公里、10 kilometer，烏克蘭自製的1 kilometer，這個用干擾槍沒有效啦！干擾不了啊，只能用飛彈打，對吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
邱部長國正：不見得用飛彈打…… |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
賴委員士葆：不然用什麼打？用槍打？ |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
邱部長國正：槍或者…… |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
賴委員士葆：用槍可以打？ |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
邱部長國正：委員，你這樣的話，好像把這個問題導向只有一個飛彈選項一樣。 |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
賴委員士葆：只有飛彈打，我想只有飛彈…… |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
邱部長國正：我們的方法有各項…… |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
賴委員士葆：我沒有任何專業，所以猜只有飛彈打。 |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
邱部長國正：能干擾就干擾，不能干擾…… |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
賴委員士葆：不能干擾…… |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
邱部長國正：還有其他器裝備，不能只有一個選項嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
賴委員士葆：可不可能？飛彈也是選項之一，是吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
邱部長國正：雖然是，但是作戰不是這樣。 |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
賴委員士葆：飛彈也是嘛！其實我是要提供數字啦，無人機一台，美國軍用的無人機一台是100萬起跳，講錯你可以指導，不過時間到了，可能沒有時間讓你講。飛彈一顆將近2,700萬，是2,600萬起跳，等於我們要打一顆的話，我們要26倍打它啦，這是我們外行人看的數字，邱部長好像一副很不屑的樣子。 |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
邱部長國正：我沒有，委員誤會了，你假如要以一個實體來比的話，我的比較很簡單，不要發生戰爭嘛！哪有這樣去比的，你想人命重要還是一枚飛彈重要？不能做這樣來比較，我不期望發生。 |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
賴委員士葆：不要戰爭，我絕對贊成，但是戰爭就是花這麼多錢。 |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
邱部長國正：一旦發生戰爭了，我們就有個選項，怎麼樣以最不對稱的方法來做一個克制。 |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
賴委員士葆：所以你的白話文就是再多錢也是要打下來，因為人命重要啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
主席：賴委員，後面委員等很久了，好不好？謝謝賴士葆委員，部長及各位請回。 |
| gazette.blocks[71][1] |
下一位詢答委員為楊瓊瓔委員。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
150 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-35-9 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
王定宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
黃仁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
羅美玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
徐巧芯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
林楚茵 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
沈伯洋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
洪申翰 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
陳永康 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
馬文君 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
林德福 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
鍾佳濱 |
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賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
林憶君 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
95 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-03-27 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1132001 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1132001_00007 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用的現況及發展」，併請行政院國土安全辦公室列席，並備
質詢 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
0.209 |
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4.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
主席及各位先進：有請國防部的邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
14.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
32.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我看到媒體報導有關於你對於中國大陸在內蒙畫一個全尺寸的博愛特區進行要轟炸的事情你有你體系看法我讀了一下你有一句話還蠻有意思的你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
35.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
57.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
你也那個用白話文講啦齁用白話文講啦你在大陸也可以模仿一個地方做親老你有這樣講做親?親老喔是對就是用白話文講啦齁他把我們這一塊準備打我們我們也把他劃一塊準備打他們有沒有這個意思你講的是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
59.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
62.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
我沒有講我們也畫一塊打他們你先就想想模擬某一個地方啊做清老啊每個國家要做一個軍事訓練的話都可以模擬啊他模擬打我們我們當然模擬打他啊不要嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
76.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
99.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
這才是軍人的本事而已我沒有這樣講 這沒有意義嘛 這別著苗頭幹什麼你在座教練不管城鎮或野外他動作還是這樣子嘛 何必搞一個假城鎮在講這個也有啊 我們有這個場地啊但假城鎮代表他北京或南京 這倒沒有這樣的設定沒有這個必要沒有這個必要沒有這個必要嘛你這個地方感覺氣勢矮你一定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
102.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
105.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
因為在委員這樣講的話你看我們國家目前有哪幾個地方他搞什麼我們要搞什麼我最少要換一個地方我們模擬一下讓他知道啊說欸看這樣喔我幫你準備喔那不是更好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
117.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
130.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
委員如果覺得這樣很有意思那就別嘛那你們去別別苗頭我們軍中戰訓本務設定各種狀況所以就防守就對了啦這個有關啦你是守的概念還是攻的概念現在講說不對稱的戰爭就是我雖然小但是我有機會打你的要害也是個做法是這樣子啊我們這個有反應的概念請問你啊他一定是用飛彈打吧對不對我們攔截率多高啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
147.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
166.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
最好跟最壞,可以攔截他的飛彈最好攔截,最方便就是他還沒發射就把他給攔截掉啦他沒發射你就知道了不然我們期望,你剛講最好跟最壞嘛,期望的就他沒發射最好百分之百,最差勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
167.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
179.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
最差的話將近幾公里的財政把他也處理掉嗎?有沒有把握他只要進來台灣一定打下來?有沒有把握?沒有什麼把握不把握的好不好?誰能打包票?誰敢打包票?要讓老百姓安心啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
185.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
203.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
你安心安心安心安心我不要能夠腳套死來一個打一個來兩個打一雙要能夠做得到才能夠有把握讓人家安心那你的意思是做不到喔我不是做不到我沒有把握我沒有把握做到美軍也不敢有把握打國家都不敢有把握有個將軍講說藍結栗他要七成阿他有學問阿你沒有學問是不是對我沒有學問阿我覺得你很有學問欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
213.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
216.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
請問你今天是那個無人機啦吼無人機啊這個國防部準備要花錢了9月20號到25號 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
239.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
263.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
UAS系統跟CUS系統就是反無人機系統跟無人機系統這個來台灣結果你報告沒有寫啊你報告只有寫MQ9事實上呢我們這兩個系統也是要錢他們就談這兩個系統請問報告為什麼不把這兩個系統放進來這兩個你現在的53.4億有沒有包括這兩個系統你知道我意思嗎有沒有包括有沒有包括有沒有包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
270.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
271.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
法定人數不足法定人數不足法定人數不足法定人數不足法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
299.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
302.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
最後一個問題,讓我講完了主席不要催我 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
315.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
317.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
實體侵犯第一集無人機是不是一定打? |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
330.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
337.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
他只要到我們的領空,一定打,那現在來了,現在一個問題來了,你講的是過去無人機沒有限,現在啊,來我們看下一頁,烏克蘭戰爭使用了有限的無人機,俄軍的中國制10公里10km,烏蘭自治的1km, |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
355.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
356.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
干擾槍不好啊干擾不了啊只能夠飛彈打對吧用槍打用槍可以打 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
367.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
383.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
委員你這樣的話,以後把這問題導入一下,只有一個飛彈選項就只有飛彈打,我想只有飛彈打,我們沒有任何專業,所以才只有飛彈打不能干擾,能干擾就干擾,不能干擾有其他武器裝備,那一定是一個選項嘛那這我把它問完,那可不可能還是有,飛彈也是選項之一是吧?飛彈也是嘛,沒有我只是要提供數字啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
395.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
415.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
無人機一台美國軍用的無人機一台一百萬起跳,錯了你們可以知道了,不過時間到了,沒有時間讓你講,飛彈一顆是將近兩千七百萬,兩千六百萬起跳,等於我們要打一顆的話,我們要二十六倍打它了,就是正是我們外行人看的這個數字, |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
416.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
420.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我知道邱部長好像一路很不炫亮沒關係以後下來再講你家要以實體來比的話我的比較很簡單不要發生戰爭嘛哪有這樣去比的人命重要還是一枚飛彈重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
432.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
432.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
賴士葆 |