| IVOD_ID |
150482 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150482 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-26-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-27T10:56:18+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-27T11:06:08+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:09:50 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d5ba458698c23bcdd0a3d9204d572e03aff8ba9b0039caa7a6d3a823a3a41615605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
蘇清泉 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:56:18 - 11:06:08 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案(含報告事項45案及討論事項4案)。【如經復議則不予處理或審查】
【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】
【3月27日及28日二天一次會】） |
| gazette.lineno |
565 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
蘇委員清泉：（10時56分）謝謝主席。請部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
薛部長富盛：蘇委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
蘇委員清泉：部長，這是昨天總質詢最後幾張圖片，我再問一次。這是車城，上任行政院長說這是屏東最美麗的天際線，結果現在太陽能板蓋成這樣，還把樹砍光光，只看到土。你看這張，樹被推光，飛砂走石，整個車城鄉的百姓都來陳情說塵土飛揚啊！這張是空照圖，可以這樣幹嗎？你們不是有說將來要做光電的，一定面積就要做環評？有這項規劃嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
薛部長富盛：跟蘇委員報告，現在回想起來，早期幾個案子的確在環境、景觀各方面的考量比較不周到。不過跟蘇委員報告，由於大院要求環境部在6月底前要修改環評法，特別是針對光電這一塊，也就是並非只有重要濕地才要做環評，包括一定的發電量或一定的面積，一樣…… |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
蘇委員清泉：什麼時候開始要這樣一塊一塊…… |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
薛部長富盛：我們當初答應大院希望在6月底前修正草案可以出來，接下來再經過預告…… |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
蘇委員清泉：能不能提前？因為他可能在之前就來搶申請許可證，然後就搶光了…… |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
薛部長富盛：跟委員報告，在光電設置標準裡，環評並不是唯一，現在經濟部、農業部都有環境檢核的機制…… |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
蘇委員清泉：部長，你看，這是老埤農場，如果你到屏東的話，我帶你去看。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
薛部長富盛：好，可以找個時間。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
蘇委員清泉：700公頃，這麼漂亮的一個地方要全部推光做光電板，大家都在罵！所有立委參選人都罵，地方人士也都反對，就算這樣也硬要做，因為已經拿到許可證了。這種的能通過嗎？這個如果過了，我就跟你拼了！ |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
薛部長富盛：跟蘇委員報告，現在的修法方向，包括希望地方政府在光電設置上扮演一定角色。也就是地方政府如果同意的話，中央當然樂觀其成，讓地方政府對市區或發展要扮演某一個程度的角色，這個或許以前比較…… |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
蘇委員清泉：我覺得環境部要把關！ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
薛部長富盛：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
蘇委員清泉：因為你的位階比較高，眼界比較廣，地方政府有時候昧於情勢…… |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
薛部長富盛：委員這樣說，難道不相信地方政府？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
蘇委員清泉：我們回到今天的主題，今天是講碳費、碳稅，碳交易，我研究後發現，碳費好像是臺灣首創，在國外好像都是碳交易跟碳稅你們的報告是寫說碳費會弄成基金，統一管理，然後會把空污、水污也都納進來嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
薛部長富盛：不一樣，這個是針對溫室氣體的部分，空污有另外的空污法規，水污有另外的水污法規，所以不一樣。 |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
蘇委員清泉：所以你們環境部以後會有十幾個基金？ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
薛部長富盛：沒有，哪有那麼多？有六個，規模都是很小的。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
蘇委員清泉：李鴻源教授說，我們臺灣如果照現在這樣搞下去，到2030年，我們的碳稅會高達6,000億到8,000億臺幣，有這回事嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
薛部長富盛：我尊重學術界的教授發表的言論，我自己也在大學裡面擔任將近三十年的教職，我基本上尊重學術自由，任何學者都可以發表各自對某一些議題的觀點。但是我們既然發表這些觀點，事實上也要比較有科學的依據，會比較好一點。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
蘇委員清泉：好，如果是碳交易的話，我們屏東2,776平方公里的土地，我們種很多樹，這些樹能不能給產生污染的工廠來做碳交易？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
薛部長富盛：事實上，農業部現在擬訂森林碳權的相關法規，將來種樹可以擁有碳權，就可以在碳交所裡面去做交易。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
蘇委員清泉：這個事情你將來會做嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
薛部長富盛：我已經在做了，不是將來，已經在做了，但是必須經過…… |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
蘇委員清泉：我們的農民種水果、種經濟作物，不但有收入，還能有碳交易的收益，對農民比較有利。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
薛部長富盛：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
蘇委員清泉：對我們的偏遠地區才有意義，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
薛部長富盛：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
蘇委員清泉：所以這個我們屏東會爭取，尤其是屏東。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
薛部長富盛：謝謝蘇委員來支持。 |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
蘇委員清泉：我們屏東人口80萬，結果農漁民有38萬，嚇死人。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
薛部長富盛：但是我跟蘇委員提醒，難道你不怕傳播這個概念給農民後，他們都會去種樹？要知道碳權的價值…… |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
蘇委員清泉：會啦，會啦。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
薛部長富盛：多少要去注意，免得到時候他們會去找你抗議。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
蘇委員清泉：這部分和太陽能板的政策剛好互相衝突。各位，這很可怕，做太陽能板、光電板要砍樹，現在增加碳權則是種樹，吸收二氧化碳。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
薛部長富盛：我們很樂意見到種更多的樹，因為對我們的環境事實上是正面的，所以非常謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
蘇委員清泉：再來我要問你，我們臺灣醫療體系的碳足跡是4.6%，這是真的假的，我不知道全球平均是4.4%，醫療院所的碳足跡怎麼會那麼高呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
薛部長富盛：他們的用電量很恐怖，當然包括其他使用的電…… |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
蘇委員清泉：是不是因為我們用的電都是石化燃料燃燒發電產生的，所以會那麼高？是這樣的原因嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
薛部長富盛：我個人覺得應該是主要使用的電力這個部分。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
蘇委員清泉：是用電力來算？ |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
薛部長富盛：對，電力。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
蘇委員清泉：不是因為發電廠是用石化燃料，還是用其他的方式發電？我們用石化燃料發電已經占了快要80%。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
薛部長富盛：沒有，現在沒有那麼高。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
蘇委員清泉：沒有那麼高？ |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
薛部長富盛：對，沒有那麼高。現在發電能源的比重，煤已經降到幾乎跟天然氣差不多了，其他的包括再生能源和水力…… |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
蘇委員清泉：所以天然氣發電沒有算碳足跡嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
薛部長富盛：當然有，天然氣也是會排碳，只是它的排碳量會比生煤這一塊少。 |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
蘇委員清泉：好，那醫療院所這邊也沒有辦法輔導，也沒有辦法減少？ |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
薛部長富盛：是，我們積極來協助衛福部，我們希望醫學中心應該要當領頭羊，來帶動我們醫療界減碳。 |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
蘇委員清泉：因為這個太重要了，在醫療方面，開刀房、ICU、急診、疫苗的保存都需要電，沒有辦法降低用電，開刀房溫度都維持19度、20度，都很耗電。這一次要漲11%，大家都跳起來了，衛福部說只有漲11%而已，根本隨便亂講。臺北榮總昨天算一算，電價漲11%就要給多支出2億，高醫大說他們要增加6,000萬，所以光這二十幾家醫學中心加起來，至少要超過15億以上，其他的加一加是30億以上。 |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
薛部長富盛：跟蘇委員報告，醫療院所要開始進行碳盤查，就是要瞭解醫學中心最大宗的排碳來自哪裡。 |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
蘇委員清泉：看看能不能減少。 |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
薛部長富盛：對，要去做。 |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
蘇委員清泉：那我看你們也沒有找衛福部來檢討啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
薛部長富盛：有啦，現在有在幫忙。因為這一塊早期在氣候變遷因應法理面，衛福部參與的部分的確比較少，未來應該要加強力道。 |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
蘇委員清泉：要輔導所有的醫療院所，因為現在醫療院所都快倒閉了，剩下1%的結餘，還被要求要有韌性醫療，我不知道要怎麼韌性。現在又要漲電費，碳費又要來，這樣一來他們就要倒光光了，所以要好好考量，好不好？部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
薛部長富盛：好，是，對啊。所以這個當然也是我們在做事情應該要全面來考量的，站在環境部的高度。 |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
蘇委員清泉：好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
薛部長富盛：好，謝謝，謝謝蘇委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
主席：好，謝謝，謝謝蘇委員的發言。 |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
主席（林委員淑芬代）：好，下一位我們請王正旭委員發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
354 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-26-9 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
黃秀芳 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
林月琴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
陳菁徽 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
劉建國 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
盧縣一 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
陳昭姿 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
邱鎮軍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
涂權吉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
廖偉翔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
王育敏 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
蘇清泉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
王正旭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
林淑芬 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
洪申翰 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
李彥秀 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
陳瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
楊曜 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
1 |
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2024-03-27 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1132102 |
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1132102_00002 |
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1132102_00003 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行
專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍
結案49案（含報告事項45案及討論事項4案）（前接第一冊） |
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謝謝主席,我請部長。我們看看這個就是車程車廂我們上任行政院長說這是屏東最美麗的天際線 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
38.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
44.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
太陽能板給你蓋成這樣,整個車子坐在那裡,整個車頭滾滾滾,來下一張。這就是滾滾滾滾,你看看,灰砂走石,整個車程廂的百姓都來給我澄清,說煙蓬蓬,這就是空照圖,可以這樣幹嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
61.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
68.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
那你們是不是說有說要將來要做光電的要一定面積就要做環評告這個規劃部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
71.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
99.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
給書委員報告這個的確早期的幾個案子現在回想起來可能的確在環境的這個景觀各方面的考量是比較不周到不過跟書委員報告就是說現在環境部也因為大宴的要求在6月底前要修改環評法特別是針對光電的這一塊不是只有重要失地才要做環評 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
101.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
116.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
包括一定的發電量或者一定的面積一樣什麼時候開始要這樣一塊一塊我們當初是答應大宴說希望在6月底前草案修正草案可以出來那接下來再經過一個議告 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
117.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
145.816 |
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那能不能提前,因為齁,因為,他現在已經被禁檢,總要跟你搶申請許可證,啊總要抽尿尿,啊你沒用。但是,跟委員報告齁,其實並不是說環評是唯一的這個光電設置的標準,現在其實經濟部或是農業部,他們都有一個檢核,環境檢核的一個機制在做。沒錯,你說這個啦,這個叫做老鼻農庭,你如果來屏東我帶你來看一看齁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
147.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
151.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
7百公頃這麼漂亮的要把它擦一擦還要做光碟盤 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
153.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
169.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
委員會參選人都要負責負責負責負責負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
180.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
195.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
您若同意,這樣中央當然樂觀啟程。就是說,電能政府在市區或是發電,要扮演某一個程度的角色。這個或許以前是比較...我覺得我們... |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
196.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
218.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
環境部要把關要把關因為你的位階比較高而且你們的眼界比較高地方政府有時候吼媚儀情勢阿你這樣還不小心在台南政府喔好那今天我們回到今天的主題吼我們今天是講碳費碳稅碳交易是 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
220.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
240.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我研究起來這個碳費是我們是好像台灣首創在國外好像都是碳交易跟碳稅那你們的報告是寫說碳費會弄成基金統一管理然後會把空污水位都拉進來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
242.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
245.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
263.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
267.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
李鴻源教授說,我們台灣如果照現在這樣步下去,到2030年我們的碳稅要高達6000到8000億台幣,有這回事嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
277.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
305.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我尊重學術委員這個學術界的教授發表的言論我自己也在大學裡面擔任這個將近30年的一個教職我基本上尊重學術自由任何學者都可以發表他各自對某一些議題的觀點但是當然我們既然發表這些觀點事實上也要比較有科學的依據這樣會比較好一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
305.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
307.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
328.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
351.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
眾數事實上他可以將來擁有這個碳權就可以在碳交所裏面去做交易這個你們會將來會做嗎已經在做了不是將來已經在做了因為我們的農民經濟作物他還有收入以外還有碳交易人要收對我們比較有利對我們的偏遠地區才有意義對不對是 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
354.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
376.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以這個我們會爭取啦我們屏東尤其是屏東我們屏東人口80萬結果農民有農民移民有38萬但是我跟蘇園提醒你人家怕傳播這個概念農民到時候他都沒去種樹了但是你要知道他的探權的價值 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
377.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
379.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我們很樂意見到種更多的樹,因為多人的環境事實上是正面的,這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
402.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
420.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那再來我要問你我們台灣醫療體系的碳足跡就是4.6%這真的假的我不知道啦那全球平均是4.4那醫療院所的那個碳足跡怎麼會那麼高呢因為用電量很吃恐怖啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
421.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
446.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
當然包括他的這個其他的使用的這個是不是因為我們用的都是石化燃料燃燒的所以會那麼高是這樣原因嗎他這裡面應該我個人覺得應該是主要是使用的電力的這個部分是用電力來算不是說發電廠是用石化燃料還是用其他的因為我們的石化當發電的是佔了快要80% |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
451.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
472.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
無啦!現在沒得管啦!當然喔!這裡面煤已經也降到幾乎跟天然氣差不多啦!其他的包括再生能源啦!所以天然氣沒有算碳足跡嗎?當然有啊!天然氣牌蛋量會比生煤這一塊比較少啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
473.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
483.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
好那醫療院所這邊也沒辦法輔導沒辦法檢嘛是我們積極來協助衛福部齁我們希望特別是醫學中心應該要當領頭羊來帶動我們醫療界齁來這個檢探對 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
489.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
494.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
因為這個太重要了。因為我們醫療、開打房、ICU、急診、疫苗的保存,那沒辦法,那沒辦法降。開打房都維持19度、20度,那個都很耗電。這一次要漲11%大家都跳起來了。外務部說去10億而已,隨便亂講。農種,雖然是台育農種,只要給11%就要給2億。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
517.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
521.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
高一大說他們要6千萬所以剛才這20幾家醫學中心加起來就搶救超過15億以上其他都加起來30億以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
530.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
557.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
稍後報告醫療院所要開始進行碳盤查了解醫學中心裡面的排碳是來自哪裡就要看看能不能減少我看你們有沒有找衛福部來檢討有啦現在有幫忙啦因為這塊早期的確在氣候變遷因應法裡面衛福部參與的是比較少那未來應該要加強力道 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
559.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
585.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
要輔導社會醫療院所因為現在醫療院所大家都要賭博剩下1%的絕餘還要要求我們要有韌性醫療我們才變成韌性啊那現在又漲電費你的碳費又來就死了了啊所以要好好的考量好不好市長對啊所以這個當然也是我們在做事情應該要全面來考量了在在環境部的高度好謝謝謝謝蘇委員好謝謝蘇委員的發言 |