| IVOD_ID |
150480 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150480 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-1-15,23-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-27T10:53:58+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-27T11:04:12+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:14 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d52505616009c096dde53fb40122520aebf8ba9b0039caa7a6f23c89a8fa09eda05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林俊憲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:53:58 - 11:04:12 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查「行人交通安全設施條例草案」(一)行政院函請審議「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案。(二)委員黃捷等16人擬具「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案。【上開議案如經院會復議，則不予審查】） |
| gazette.lineno |
518 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
林委員俊憲：（10時54分）謝謝主席，本席要請內政部林右昌部長、國土管理署吳欣修署長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：好，請部長、國土管理署吳署長，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
林部長右昌：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
林委員俊憲：部長好。現在內政部總算提出了道路交通安全基本法，我們當然肯定這樣的立法進步方向，從106年即2017年到2021年，內政部投資了212億，提出了道路交通品質計畫，然後2022年到2025年，現在正在執行，我統計了一下，交通部和內政部一共投入將近300億來改善交通品質，也就是說，從2017年到現在，光是交通品質部分，中央就投入了500億，但是請問部長，對於整體人行道的改善狀況，你滿意嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
林部長右昌：我想當然是不滿意，不過各地方政府在這幾年也的確做了相關的努力。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
林委員俊憲：好，我再統計六都的數據給部長看一下，我們政府有統計人行道普及率，我發現還是出現嚴重的南北差距，甚至所謂的城鄉差距。很不好意思喔！臺南市是最低的，但是你看，就算是最高的臺北市也不到七成，只有67%；新北62%，然後從桃園開始就不到五成，桃園只有47%，臺中48%，臺南最低、35%，高雄市可能是個老直轄市，它還有55%。也就是說，未來對於人行道的普及率，政府還要再加油，中央與地方確實都要聯手。尤其母法訂出來後，應該要能夠考評地方政府的人行道普及率，我希望未來內政部、交通部應該加強這點。我再請教部長，人行道最嚴重的是施工問題，譬如有時候會遇上大樓施工，施工時就必須設立臨時人行道，我給部長看幾張照片。有一張是公車要過來，旁邊有一個人在等公車，可是根本沒有人行道可以讓他站立，他只好直接站在快車道上面。再來，左下角有大樓在施工，所以擺了很多三角錐，那就是一個臨時的人行道。我每天坐高鐵到臺北站，再走路到立法院，途中有一棟大樓在施工，就隨便做了一個臨時人行道，走起來高低不平，甚至很危險，你知道嗎？我每天都從高鐵站走到這裡，旁邊就有一棟大樓在施工。接下來看右下角，右下角所發生的車禍上了新聞，騎樓在施工，所以沒有人行道可以走，只好走到外面來，結果被車子撞到。我認為應該要規範當人行道在施工的時候該怎麼辦？這叫道路維持計畫，是不是？但現在內政部提出的法案「道路交通安全設施條例」的方案裡，完全沒有寫到交通維持計畫。也就是沒有一個上位法規來規範交通維持計畫。交通維持計畫在哪裡？各地方政府自己亂訂，而且訂得很鬆散。我舉個例子，像新北市的道路交通維持計畫只要送道安會報備查就好；甚至高雄市說會不定期召開道安會報，但由施工單位負責所謂的道路維持計畫，等於是政府不負責這個部分，只要備查就好，要不然就是交給施工單位自己去負責，所以有些根本是亂做的臨時人行道！所謂道路交通維持計畫都做得很爛，為什麼？因為沒有上位法規去規範它！部長或署長的看法呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
林部長右昌：我先回應一下委員。我覺得剛剛提到的那個問題的確是有必要，也就是施工的時候沒有實際落實交維計畫。現在的交維計畫層級比較低，我想我們可以在法的位階上來做一些加強。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
林委員俊憲：本席有提修正案，我的修正案就是你們現在提出來的母法，即在道路交通安全基本法裡納入交通道路維持計畫…… |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
林部長右昌：委員，跟你報告一下，我想方向上我們認同，不過交維計畫是很細的東西，法上面該怎麼樣處理？是不是容許我們跟交通部再研商討一下？ |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
林委員俊憲：本席提的是第二條第一項，我認為要新增一個「常態性或臨時性」，也就是說臨時性的措施，就是這種道路交通維持計畫應該要納入行人交通安全設施的定義，因為現在的行人交通安全設施的定義沒有包含這種臨時性的道路交通維持計畫，就是你把它剔除在政府管轄的範圍外，這種臨時性的道路交通維持計畫不在你定義的行人安全設施範圍內，這顯不合理，因為人行道一定會施工，大樓施工或是人行道施工、道路施工都會破壞到人行道的通行，你應該要在法規上要求施工單位和地方政府，一定要做好臨時性的替代通道讓人可以走過去，之前已經發生過很多的車禍了，甚至你要把它納為考評項目。部長，你的看法呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
林部長右昌：我想這個我們瞭解，我請吳署長說明一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為這個法本身是一個作用法，也就是說若前面有名詞定義的話，後面應該有它相對應的條文，但是因為這個交維設施它本身是一個非常細節，而且要因地制宜訂出很彈性的作法的，所以…… |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
林委員俊憲：你就是非常有彈性，彈性到沒有人管啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
吳署長欣修：我說明一下，因為在母法裡面，它後面沒有對應的措施，或者對應的措施應該…… |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
林委員俊憲：那你的交維計畫算不算…… |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
吳署長欣修：容我說明一下…… |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
林委員俊憲：你定義的行人安全設施？你現在不算欸！ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
吳署長欣修：所以我才會跟委員報告說，是不是下午我們討論一下，看是在母法跟細則裡面通通都去定義，還是母法只要有定一個項目…… |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
林委員俊憲：好，所以你們趕快去做這方面的討論，要把它彌補過來。 |
| gazette.blocks[18][1] |
第二個，你規範要設立行人安全友善設施的場域，就是你規範要設立有人行道的場域，我認為你少納入商圈。你看，這是臺中的一中街商圈，根本沒有地方可以讓人走；臺南的國華街商圈，假日都是人山人海，人走在哪裡？走到快車道上面。不只臺中的商圈，很多商圈都一樣，然後簡報右邊我給你看一個日本的商圈，日本定義為商圈，它一定設立行人可以走的徒步區，這必然的嘛！這樣消費者才可以來，顧客才可以在那邊散步。你現在規範必須要設立所謂「行人友善區」的場域有哪些？你只規範了醫療院所、學校、機關、大眾捷運場站等行人密集場所，我認為應該把商圈納進來。這樣讓以後地方政府在規劃商圈的時候，他不得不、一定要把行人友善設施納進商圈的必要附屬設施中，你的母法要有規範，這部分我也有提修正版本。署長，你的意見呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
吳署長欣修：的確因為我們在這個條文裡面，大概後面都會留一個就是讓地方政府去公告，這是屬於列舉公告，所以地方政府如果覺得有需要其實也都可以，當然，我知道委員也特別注意到商圈，其實現在知名的觀光商圈行人都比車多…… |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
林委員俊憲：你開放給地方政府的結果就是你看到的，商圈都沒有設立啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
吳署長欣修：我瞭解，瞭解。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
林委員俊憲：所以你母法不規範，有的地方政府就是便宜行事嘛，是不是這樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
吳署長欣修：是，就是說他們大概也考慮實務。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
林委員俊憲：你現在再不規範，它也是不會改變啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
吳署長欣修：瞭解。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
林委員俊憲：你應該把商圈納進來，因為經濟部也在大推要提振商圈的計畫，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
吳署長欣修：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
林委員俊憲：中央補助地方政府做商圈，你做商圈竟然沒有規範他必須要做行人友善區，不能讓行人走路，那你在做什麼商圈啊！我覺得臺灣的法令規範實在很落伍耶，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
吳署長欣修：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
林委員俊憲：此事涉及跨部會的合作，我認為這部分你要先負起責任，內政部應該先把商圈納進來，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
吳署長欣修：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
林委員俊憲：謝謝部長，謝謝署長。謝謝主席。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
主席：謝謝林俊憲委員的質詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][1] |
下一位換蔡其昌委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
152 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
聯席會議-11-1-15,23-1 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
吳琪銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
黃捷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
黃建賓 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
蘇巧慧 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
李昆澤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
張宏陸 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
麥玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
許宇甄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
王美惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
黃健豪 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
林俊憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
蔡其昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
徐富癸 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
何欣純 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
林沛祥 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
徐欣瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
廖先翔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
吳思瑤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
游顥 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
洪申翰 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
李柏毅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
吳沛憶 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[26] |
陳素月 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[27] |
魯明哲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[28] |
黃仁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[29] |
劉建國 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[30] |
林國成 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[31] |
張智倫 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[32] |
丁學忠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[33] |
林月琴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[34] |
張雅琳 |
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2024-03-27 |
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立法院第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
審查「行人交通安全設施條例草案」(一)行政院函請審議「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案；
(二)委員黃捷等16人擬具「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案 |
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謝主席。本席要請我們內政部林部長,國土管理署吳信修署長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
16.273 |
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總算內政部提出道路交通安全基本法,肯定這樣的一個立法的進步方向。從2016年2017年到2021年,內政部投資了212億,提出道路交通品質計畫。 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
36.021 |
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56.738 |
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然後2022年現在正在執行到2025年交通部我統計一下和內政部一共投入將近300億的改善交通品質也就是說從2017年到現在國家投入中央光是用交通品質就投入了500億 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
58.824 |
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85.909 |
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請問部長你覺得整體人行道的改善狀況你滿意嗎?我想當然是不滿意不過各地方政府在這幾年也的確做相關的一個努力我再統計一下六都給部長看一下我們政府有統計人行道的普及率我發現還是出現嚴重的南北南北的差距甚至所謂城鄉差距 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
87.148 |
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114.989 |
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不好意思,台南市是最低的啦。但是你看,就算最高的台北市也不到七成啦,只有百分之六十七啦。新北六十二。你看,然後呢,桃園開始就不到五成啦。桃園只有四十七啦,台中四十八,台南最低三十五啦。高雄市可能是個老直轄市啦,但還有五十五趴啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
117.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
117.515 |
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主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
141.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
148.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
人行道最嚴重是施工的問題。人行道也會有大樓在施工。施工的時候就必須要設立臨時的人行道。我給部長看這幾個照片。 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
163.263 |
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163.404 |
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議員黃捷等 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
183.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
204.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
有一個大樓施工啦,他擺了很多三角錐啦,那個其實就是一個臨時的人行道啦。我跟你講你知道,我每天坐高鐵到台北站,我都是走路到立法院來,那邊有一棟大樓在施工啦,他隨便給你做一個臨時的人行道,我走的都是道路高低不平啦,那身體也很危險啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
206.758 |
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229.915 |
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我每天都是從高鐵站走到這裡,旁邊就有個大樓在做了。接下來右下角,右下角也是啦。右下角這個發燈車,這個上了新聞,騎樓在施工,所以他沒有人行道可以走,所以他走到外面來,被車子撞到。那我們現在應該要規範啦,當人行道在施工的時候你怎麼辦? |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
231.289 |
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254.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
這個叫做道路維持計劃。是不是?但是你現在內政部提出你這個法案,道路交通安全計劃,你現在內政部剛剛提出來這個法案,裡面完全沒有寫到那個交通維持計劃。也就是說你沒有一個上位法規範交通維持計劃。所以交通維持計劃在哪裡?各地方政府自己亂定的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
255.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
261.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
新北市大陸交通維持計劃送給大安匯報備查高雄市不定期召開大安匯報由施工單位負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
279.468 |
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299.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
所謂的道路維持計劃你等於說政府就不負責這一塊部分了你只要備查要不然就去交給施工單位自己去負責所以有些亂做的一些臨時人行道所謂道路交通維持計劃都做得很爛為什麼因為你沒有上位法規去規範它 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
301.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
330.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那部長或者是署長你有看法嗎?是,我先回應一下委員我覺得剛剛提到的那個問題的確是有必要就是說你在施工的時候他沒有實際去把交委的計畫把它落實那因為現在的交委的計畫它的那個層級比較低所以我想我們可以在法的這個位階上面來做一些加強分析有提修法,我有提修正案 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
331.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
334.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
本期提的是第二條第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
358.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
376.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我認為要新增一個所謂常態性或臨時性也就是說臨時性的措施就是這種道路交通維持計畫應該要納入行人交通安全設施的定義因為你現在的行人交通安全設施的定義沒有包含這種道路臨時性的維持計畫就是你把他剔除掉在你所管轄的範圍內 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
384.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
386.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
委員黃捷等16人擬具《行人交通安全設施條例草案》案 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
410.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
432.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
甚至你要把他納回考評項目啦。部長你有什麼看法?我想這個我們了解,我請吳事長說明一下。我跟委員報告啦,因為這一個法本身是一個作用法。就是說你前面有名詞定義的話,後面應該要有它相對應的條文。但是因為這一個交違設施它本身是一個非常細節而且要因地制宜定出很彈性的做法的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
432.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
437.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以我才會跟委員報告說是不是下午我們討論一下看是在母法跟細則裡面通通都去定義還是母法只要有定義一個項目所以你們趕快去做這方面的討論要把它擬補過來第二個啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
460.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
472.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
在你所謂定義上要設立行人安全友善設施就是你規範要設立有人行道的部分我認為你少納入商圈你看這是台中一中街商圈根本沒有地方可以走台南國外街商圈那個嫁入都是人山人海 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
488.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
516.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
人走在哪裡?走到快車道上面啊。台中的商圈,很多商圈都一樣啦。然後我右邊給你看一個是日本的商圈。日本定立為商圈,它一定設立行人可以走了。這必然的嘛。你稍微走才可以來啊。顧客才可以在那邊散步啊。但你現在啊規範啊必須要設立所謂的行人友善區啊。你只規範什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
518.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
539.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
你只規範了醫療院所、學校、機關、大眾捷運場等行人密集場所,我認為你應該要把商圈納進來啦。只要你要讓地方政府在規範商圈的時候啊,他不得不他一定要啦,要把行人友善設施納進商圈的必要的那個附屬設施裡面。你無法要規範啦。我也有提修正版本在這個地方啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
545.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
571.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
來,署長您的意見的確啊,就是因為我們在這條文裡面大概後面都會留一個留一個就是說讓地方政府去公告啦那所以地方政府在這次屬於列舉公告所以地方政府如果覺得有需要其實都可以當然我知道委員也特別注意就是說商圈其實現在知名的觀光商圈其實很多比車多啊你考量給地方政府的結果就是你看到的啊商圈都沒有設立啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
572.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
579.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
所以你母法不規範有地方政府他就是陪你行事嘛是不是這樣你現在再不規範他也是不會改變啦你該把商圈納進來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
584.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
585.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
拜託林俊憲的資訊 |