| IVOD_ID |
149883 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149883 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-20-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-14T11:08:30+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-14T11:21:07+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:37 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135fde118715c01bac79acded3ffe6c80faf8ba9b0039caa7a65bdf70add8e932595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王世堅 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:08:30 - 11:21:07 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。
【3月13日及14日二天一次會】） |
| gazette.lineno |
736 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
王委員世堅：（11時8分）主席，我請央行楊總裁。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請楊總裁。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
王委員世堅：謝謝主席。楊總裁，這麼多年來，中央銀行不管在你或者前任總裁領導下，坦白講對於我們整個國家金融的穩定，對於匯率、利率這一些的掌控，其實社會給你們的評價都很高。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
王委員世堅：可是我今天提到的有兩個，我覺得也是當務之急，我希望這兩個問題請你回答，就是先前為了抑制房市的過度飆漲，央行已經採取選擇性信用管制，已經採取了五波。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
楊總裁金龍：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
王委員世堅：這五波下去以後，我們看到，房市不但繼續熱絡，而且價格直直上揚，那等於全國不僅蛋黃區，全國22縣市都一起上漲。所以我要問你，在前5波對房市的選擇性信用管制成效不大之下，是不是應該再祭出第6波？你有沒有這個打算？ |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，第一，選擇性信用管制我們每次的理監事會都會討論、做滾動式的檢討；第二，在我們的健全房市方案裡面，選擇性信用管制的主要目的也不是在於要抑制房價，因為說實在的，臺灣房價上漲也有它的道理，第一是中美貿易衝突以後，臺商回來投資…… |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
王委員世堅：總裁，這些我們都知道，不只我們立法院知道，全民也都知道啦！你不能在全民的期待下，現在突然說：沒有啦，我先前採取選擇性信用管制不是要打房價。我是直接挑明跟你說，這其實就是在打房價，而且我認為這是對的！這是全民的期待！ |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
楊總裁金龍：是啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
王委員世堅：合理的管制房價！因為房價不合理的飆升，不是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
楊總裁金龍：對。好，那我現在就直接回答委員的問題，我們對選擇性信用管制的措施一直都會做滾動式檢討，必要的時候，我們也不是就到這裡為止而已。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
王委員世堅：所以我請問你嘛！短期內你有沒有打算祭出第6波的選擇性信用管制？ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
楊總裁金龍：我們的理監事會會討論。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
王委員世堅：理監事會什麼時候會討論？ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
楊總裁金龍：3月份的時候。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
王委員世堅：那就是這個月囉？好，我靜待你們討論的結果。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
楊總裁金龍：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
王委員世堅：雖然你採用選擇性信用管制，但是我覺得國內這38家銀行好像有聽又好像沒聽，沒在當一回事，所以成效不彰。照理說，央行訂了這個政策，全體銀行都應該跟進才對，調皮搗蛋不跟進的就要予以處罰了，不是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
楊總裁金龍：有！ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
王委員世堅：結果這麼多年來，從108年、109年到111年，總共才處罰3件，這3家當初比較調皮搗蛋：臺企銀、合庫和國泰世華。好啦！也是一樣4個字──高舉輕放！罰款最高可以罰到2,000萬，結果你們都罰最低的100萬！那就難怪了！調皮搗蛋、不配合、不聽中央銀行指示的都只被罰100萬，其他更多沒被查到、沒配合的，大家當然都敢這麼做了嘛！了不起他們就準備繳交這個100萬的入場券，再來就隨他們做了，不是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
楊總裁金龍：我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
王委員世堅：所以央行指示的選擇性信用管制，38家銀行裡面除了那些模範生以外，對多數調皮搗蛋的銀行而言，我認為可以用8個字來形容他們，就是自由發揮、我行我素，他們做他們的就對了，中央銀行歸中央銀行，你們說你們的就對了。我覺得這是非常可惡的事情，也就是說，我認為應該好好檢討前5波有哪幾家沒配合，好好地查，還是要把它抓出來罰，而且不能只罰100萬，100萬對他們而言是零錢當中的零錢啦！連最高額罰2,000萬他們都沒在聽，更何況只罰100萬！好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
楊總裁金龍：好！這個…… |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
王委員世堅：央行3月召開理事會以後，這方面如果有結論，你看能不能3月底、4月初馬上向我們財委會做一個說明，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
楊總裁金龍：我們會有一個檢討報告給委員，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
王委員世堅：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
楊總裁金龍：我們送一份檢討報告給委員，可以吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
王委員世堅：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][1] |
另外一個問題就是，其實中央銀行法第二十九條不只是針對房屋的部分，對於耐久消費品的貸款也可以管，我講的這一部分是什麼呢？就是現在對一些年輕人造成悲歌的BNPL（先買後付），也就是消費貸款。消費性貸款現在很離譜的現象是，國內三大租賃公司大筆地向這38家銀行借款，借款金額是多少呢？比方說中租迪和借了2,346億，和潤借了972億，裕隆汽車成立的裕融不公開，我們也跟金管會說你要查、你要問，金管會竟然自廢武功，不但不管他們，連金額要它報，它也不報，結果裕融繼續在做。楊總裁，你看這樣對嗎？銀行如果要借消費性貸款，就直接借給消費者嘛！我們信賴銀行體系，它有一套徵信制度，而且銀行知道這些用於放款的錢來自2,300萬納稅人的存款，那些存款應該絕大多數用在生產事業，幫助民眾買土地、蓋廠房、買機械設備、買原料、做週轉金，這些都是生產性或商業性的，消費性貸款應該受到限縮，但是突然跑出這幾家租賃公司，好啦！它大筆地跟我們的銀行體系借款，而且是低利的，然後再用高利貸的方式借給消費者，尤其是初入社會的年輕朋友，我覺得這不只是錯誤的，而且還非常的不道德、非常的不道德！ |
| gazette.blocks[28][2] |
這些租賃公司向銀行借錢，我不客氣的講，這叫做有牌的地下錢莊，不是嗎？有牌的地下錢莊！就因為它掛個牌，說自己是租賃公司，然後就可以把社會大眾的資金從銀行那邊大筆地轉過來，去幹地下錢莊的事情！你知道它違約金多少嗎？你知道它利息多高嗎？你知道他們討帳怎麼討的嗎？表面上叫兩個穿西裝的過來，後面跟著兩個嚼檳榔的，討債公司！青年朋友們、初入社會的，你看，給他們這麼大的誘惑，買輛80萬的車，租賃公司借你100萬，你買車子不但不用出錢，還有20萬可以當零用金。有些年輕朋友沒有考慮那麼多，結果父母親做保，租賃公司也不怕討不到，而且年輕朋友還有三十幾年的工作餘命，他們覺得這都一定討得到就對了，所以就用這種方式變相吸血，這是在殘害我們的社會，尤其是殘害我們國家未來的希望──年輕人，我覺得這是殘害他們的一個非常可惡的方式、手段。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][3] |
金管會的部分我會另外找他們算這筆帳，金管會不但自廢武功，而且動不動就搬出個資法，我們大家的個資被賣得差不多了，當我們立委要查的時候，他們才說：基於個資法的規定，不能給你，種種資料都不能給你。這個我會另外找它算帳。但是根據中央銀行法，央行事實上就可以針對這個部分。中央銀行法第二十九條規定得很清楚，你們不只可以管銀行辦理購建房屋的貸款，也可以管購置耐久消費品的貸款。對於金管會管不住的、沒本事管的，央行展現一些態度嘛！可不可以？ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
楊總裁金龍：這個我們來檢討看看，好不好？我們也檢討…… |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
王委員世堅：楊總裁，我對你跟中央銀行寄予厚望，既然法令有了，你有中央銀行法第二十九條，你可以處置啊！這件事情，你針對這一些調皮搗蛋的銀行，把大量的錢借給這三家租賃公司讓他們去剝削、去吸血青年朋友們，這個就是錯誤，那樣子的行為，這三家租賃公司叫做有牌的地下錢莊，這些貸款給它的銀行，當了最大的幫凶，這些貸款給它的銀行，對不起我們全體的存款人，是不是這樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
楊總裁金龍：那個委員的意見，我們會來檢討…… |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
王委員世堅：我希望這個會期下一次會議我們碰面的時候，你可以針對這個部分，下去管制他們這些銀行，警告他們這些銀行，請你將一些處理的情況，跟我們做一些說明，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
王委員世堅：謝謝總裁。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
主席：謝謝。王委員，金管會他有講說剛剛講的那三個不歸他們管，金管會有說了。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
王委員世堅：金管會不能講不管，那這樣子這三家租賃公司叫「三不管」喔？沒有喔！主席，我再找時間…… |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
主席：需要的話，我再來安排。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][1] |
接著請李坤城委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
192 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-20-3 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
羅明才 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
林德福 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
吳秉叡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
郭國文 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
李彥秀 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
賴惠員 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
王世堅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
李坤城 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
陳玉珍 |
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顏寬恒 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
129 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-03-14 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1131301 |
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1131301_00004 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質
詢 |
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主席我請楊總裁楊總裁謝謝主席楊總裁這麼多年來我們中央銀行 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
16.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
42.051 |
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不管在你或者前任總裁領導下其實坦白講對於我們整個國家金融的穩定對於匯率利率這一些的掌控其實社會給你們的評價都很高謝謝委員可是我今天提到的是兩個我覺得也是當務之急我希望兩個問題那麼請你回答後就是說 |
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43.166 |
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68.064 |
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先前為了抑制房市的過度飆漲我們央行已經採取選擇性信任管制已經採取了五波這五波下去以後我們看到房市不但繼續熱絡而且價格直直上揚那等於全國不僅 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
69.105 |
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94.053 |
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但黃區那全國22縣市都一起上漲所以我要問你的就是說那前5波選擇性信用管制成效不大之下是不是我們應該再祭出第6波的針對房市這個選擇性的信用管制你有沒有這個打算 |
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95.673 |
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123.103 |
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我跟委員報告就是說第一個我們選擇信心的管制我們每次的理監事會都會討論滾動式的檢討這是第一點第二點呢也就是說我們的健全房屋方案裡面就是說我們選擇信心的管制的主要的目的也不是在於就是說要抑制房價因為我們的台灣的房價說實在的它也有它上漲也有它的道理第一個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
124.571 |
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145.077 |
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中美貿易衝突了以後呢台商回來投資這些我們都知道不只我們立法院知道全民也都知道啦你不能說全民的期待下你現在突然說沒有啦我先前選擇性信用管制不是要打房價 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
146.357 |
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173.698 |
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我是直接挑明跟你說其實就是打房價我認為這是對的這是全民的期待合理的管制房價他們房價不合理的飆升不是嗎那當然現在呢就好我就直接回答委員的我們對選擇信心管制的措施呢我們一直都是會滾動式的煎刀可以必要的時候呢我們也不是說我們就到這裡為止而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
174.549 |
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199.249 |
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所以我請問你嘛那短期內你有沒有打算第6波的選擇性信用管制我這個就是說李建世會會討論李建世會討論那什麼時候李建世會我們3月份的時候是李建世的討論那就是這個月囉好我靜待你們討論的結果但是你既然採用選擇性信用管制我覺得我們國內這38家銀行 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
203.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
221.718 |
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視乎有聽沒聽沒當一回事所以啊這個成效不章那你們照說央行訂了這個政策我們全體銀行應該要跟進的那調皮搗蛋不跟進的那就要處罰他不是嗎結果這麼多年來從108年109到111年總共處罰三件 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
229.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
256.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這三家當初比較調皮搗蛋台積銀和庫國泰市華好了也是一樣四個字高舉輕放可以喔最高罰款可以罰到兩千萬的結果你們都把他罰一個最低罰一百萬那難怪調皮搗蛋不配合不聽中央銀行指示的都 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
257.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
267.561 |
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此備罰一百萬的那其他更多沒查到沒配合大家都敢這麼做嘛啊了不起他就準備啊繳交一百萬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
269.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
296.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這個入場券再來就隨他們做了不是嗎所以我認為銀行指示的選擇性信用管制對38家銀行那些裡面那些除了模範生以外對多數這些調皮搗蛋的銀行而言我認為8個字形容他們啦他們就是自由發揮我行我素 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
298.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
307.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
好,他們做他們的就對了阿中央銀行那中央銀行的你說你的就對了所以我覺得這是非常可惡的事情也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
308.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
337.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我認為好好檢討前5波哪幾家沒配合的還是要叉叉還是要抓出來罰不能只罰一百萬啊一百萬懶散了又懶散了連最高額罰兩千萬他就沒得聽了更何況說你只罰一百萬好不好那個理事會以後3月的這個理事會以後我希望有結論你看有沒有3月底4月初馬上向我們財委會做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
338.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
355.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
說明好不好我我我我我們會有一個檢討報告給委員好不好可以我們一個檢討報告給委員另外另外第二問題就是說針對其實我們中央銀行法第29條不止是對房屋的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
356.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
381.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
其實我們對於這個耐久消費品啊這個部分那麼我們事實上這一部分的貸款我們也可以管那我講這一部分是什麼呢就是說關於這個現在對年輕人造成一些悲歌的啦就是VNPL所謂齁這個先買後付就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
383.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
403.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
消費貸款消費金貸款現在很離譜的是什麼呢這3家國內3家這些租賃公司他們大筆的向我們的這38家銀行借款那借款金額多少呢你比方說 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
406.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
433.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這個中租敵核他借了2346億核亂972億那家裕榮汽車成立的裕榮啊他不公開他不公開那我們也問啊我們請金管會說你要查你要問金管會竟然自廢武功不但不管他們連金額要他報 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
435.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
458.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那也不報結果愈容繼續再做那你想想喔那個楊總裁你看這樣對嗎銀行你如果要借消費性貸款那你有你就直接你就借給消費者嘛我們信賴銀行的體系他有一個徵信體制而且銀行知道說這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
461.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
487.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
存款去放款這些存款來自2300萬我們的納稅人他們的存款那些存款應該絕大多數用在生產事業幫助民眾買土地蓋廠房買機械設備買原料做桌展機生產性的嘛或者商業性的結果消費性的貸款應該受到限縮 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
488.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
507.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
但是突然跑出這幾家租賃公司好啦他大筆的跟我們的銀行體系借借低利的然後他用高利貸的方式借給消費者尤其是年輕朋友們出入社會者那 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
508.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
522.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我覺得這不只是錯誤這是非常的不道德非常的不道德然後他們向銀行借錢當這些租賃公司我不客氣的講這叫做有牌的地下錢莊不是嗎有牌的地下錢莊就因為他掛個牌我租賃公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
534.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
549.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
然後他就可以把社會大眾的資金從銀行那邊大筆的轉過來去幹地下錢莊的事情你知道他維維金多少嗎你知道他利息多高嗎你知道他們討帳怎麼討的嗎表面上叫兩個穿西裝的過來後面跟著兩個嚼檳榔的討債公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
559.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
581.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那青年朋友們出入社會的你看給他們這麼大的誘惑買個80萬的車出定公司借你100萬你車子不但不用出錢還有20萬可以當零用金那年輕朋友們有的沒有考慮那麼多的結果父母親作罷 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
582.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
607.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
竹林公司也不怕討不到啦難道年輕朋友還有30幾年工作餘命啊他覺得這個都一定討得到的就對就用這種方式變相的吸血這是殘害我們社會尤其是殘害我們國家未來的希望青年人我覺得殘害他們的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
609.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
637.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
非常可惡的一個方式手段所以我認為那個軍管會我另外會找他軍管會我另外會找他算這筆賬軍管會不但自廢武功而且動不動拿那個什麼個資法啦我們大家個資被賣的差不多啦然後他才說這個個資法我們立委要查他說個資法不能給你總統什麼都不能給你這個我另外會找他算賬 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
639.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
657.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
當事央行你根據銀行法你事實上你就可以針對這個部分銀行法第29條很清楚不只是對辦理構建房屋你另外購置耐久消費品的貸款你們也可以去管 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
659.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
661.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我我我我我我我我我我我 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
676.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
689.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我對你跟中央銀行寄予厚望既然法令有啦你有中央銀行法第29條你可以處置啊這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
690.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
710.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
你針對這些調皮搗蛋的銀行把大量的錢借給這三家租賃公司讓他們去剝削去吸血青年朋友們這個就是錯誤那樣子的行為這三家租賃公司叫做有牌的地下錢莊 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
712.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
721.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這一家貸款給他的銀行當了最大的幫兇這一家貸款給他的銀行對不起我們全體的存款人是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
725.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
743.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我希望這個會期下一次會議我們碰面的時候你可以針對這個部分你有下去管制他們這些銀行警告他們這些銀行這些你做出一些有處理的這個情況跟我們做一些說明好不好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
752.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
754.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
王偉那個金管會他有講說那個剛剛講 |