| IVOD_ID |
149766 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149766 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-26-5 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-13T10:28:16+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-13T10:39:25+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:09 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903c76f884008139d5c14b75c67118f492bf8ba9b0039caa7a6130a6e79d11c52415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
楊曜 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:28:16 - 10:39:25 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。
【3月13日及14日二天一次會】） |
| gazette.lineno |
621 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
楊委員曜：（10時28分）謝謝主席。主席，請一下許部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請許部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
許部長銘春：楊委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
楊委員曜：部長好。部長，今天的業務報告是有關年金改革準備的部分，部裡面這邊還是一直停留在蒐集意見，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
許部長銘春：蒐集意見跟溝通。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
楊委員曜：會不會蒐集意見跟溝通的時間太長了？我知道這是一項很嚴峻的工程，我也不是想為難你，可是我覺得好像每一次的業務報告中有關年改的部分，大概都是一直停留在蒐集意見跟評估，這樣一來，到底年改什麼時候可以啟動、什麼時候可以落實，讓廣大的勞工可以得到安心，到底是什麼時候？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
許部長銘春：委員，關於期程部分，我們會來通盤的規劃，只是說因為…… |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
楊委員曜：部長，我打岔一下，假如說今天來業務報告就已經有期程，那我可能還可以接受。可是這6年來，部長也已經任滿6年了，是一個非常長壽的部長，但對於跟勞工這麼息息相關、影響這麼重大的一個政策，卻一直停留在準備、蒐集意見以達到共識的階段，這點本席真的沒有辦法接受！ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
許部長銘春：謝謝委員。因為這部分的確不容易，因為…… |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
楊委員曜：我知道。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
許部長銘春：因為勞工人口數實在太多，然後每個產業的職業勞工意見又都不同，關心的點也都不同，所以我也認為其實應該要更…… |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
楊委員曜：我曾經在委員會跟部長討論過，我覺得任何一項改革都不可能有共識。我也知道勞工的年金改革為什麼困難，因為他原本可以領到的給付就少，廣大的受薪階級勞工，並沒有因為臺灣經濟成長而使其薪資等比例增加。所以要增加保費有一定的阻力，要延後退可能會引發很大的風波。我知道困難在哪裡，可是也正因為困難，所以選民才給民進黨機會，就是要民進黨面對困難。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][1] |
記得我們在從事軍公教年改時，大概整個民進黨黨團受影響最大的就是我，因為澎湖的軍公教比例太高了！但我還是戴著鋼盔挺過了年改，我又當選兩屆了。如同蔡英文總統講的，應該要改革的就是必須要改革，必須要想出一套方案讓退休的不恐懼，讓正在繳保費的心安，這是我們的責任。這幾年提撥成為改革唯一的選項，這個本席也不反對，甚至我已經提案把政府負擔最終給付責任入法。為什麼我這麼重視這件事情？因為必須讓勞動者有一個安定的心情，讓他知道不管任何人執政，都不會放棄這一千多萬的勞工朋友，這一千多萬對於臺灣經濟有卓著貢獻的勞工，所以我覺得我們必須要去面對，現在就是這樣。就像我剛才講的，我知道改革困難，為什麼？不要說減少給付，就以目前的給付來看，目前請領勞工給付的人數大概有174萬…… |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
許部長銘春：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
楊委員曜：平均每個月領到的是一萬八千多，可是臺灣最低生活費，以臺北市來講，已經高達一萬九千多。臺北市以外的地方平均值也將近一萬五千，現在領這樣子，在臺北市已經未達最低生活費標準了，萬一再減少給付的話怎麼辦？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
許部長銘春：對。跟委員報告，以臺灣的產業勞工來看，退休給付包括兩個：一個勞保，另外一個就是勞退…… |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
楊委員曜：勞退。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
許部長銘春：這兩個加起來……當然還有健保、長照，這都是照顧我們的退休人員…… |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
楊委員曜：健保跟長照是另外一回事，我們聚焦在勞工部分，也就是勞保與勞退。我認為勞退比例太低了，自提的部分太低了…… |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
許部長銘春：自提比較低，但雇提也達到七百多萬…… |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
楊委員曜：大概是這樣子，全體提繳數在106年時，大概是百分之十四點多…… |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
許部長銘春：對、對。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
楊委員曜：現在呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
許部長銘春：自提部分，去年是14.17%…… |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
楊委員曜：14.17%？ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
許部長銘春：對，人數是106萬。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
楊委員曜：好，14.17%。就像部長講的，沒有錯，我們對勞工退休保障的設計架構是在勞保與勞退，問題是勞退本身有一個現象，即這百分之十四點多，你仔細去看，薪資所得越高的，越願意配合自提；越低的，因為他所得本來就低，所以要再提出6%可能有困難度。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
許部長銘春：還有雇提6%，這6%是雇主一定要提撥的。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
楊委員曜：對，我知道。那6%大家都有…… |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
許部長銘春：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
楊委員曜：我現在講的是6%加6%…… |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
許部長銘春：自提等於另外…… |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
楊委員曜：特別是薪資低的勞工來看，6%加6%才足以保障他的退休生活！因為他本來就低薪，可以領的勞保給付本來就低，然後又因為職涯過程、生活所需、教養子女、孝敬父母，所以自提6%對他來講，會馬上面臨生活的困頓，部長懂我的意思嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
許部長銘春：我知道。如果是低薪可能…… |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
楊委員曜：多數都是低薪，既是低薪，自提的很少。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
許部長銘春：我們現在有統計，月投保薪資平均大概是三萬七千；如果以三萬七千來看，他的勞保，按照現制，大概領一萬七千左右。如果再加上勞退，就是雇提，只算雇提不算自提，大概一萬，所以勞保加勞退，大概二萬七千七百。以現在一個退休勞工的平均月投保薪資三萬七千來看，我們平均大概抓三萬七千，這樣領起來有二萬七千多，替代率68%。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
楊委員曜：這種平均值會比較看不到真正的弱勢，保障弱勢是民進黨邁向執政最重要的一個東西。目前勞保加勞退的平均值有二萬七千，看起來好像夠，暫且不管目前的通貨膨脹，可是我們是不是能夠多替這些低薪的勞工想想辦法？ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
許部長銘春：弱勢要特別照顧，我覺得委員您的建議，我們會…… |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
楊委員曜：我也知道很困難，可是我常說，不困難的事怎麼輪得到我們做？我最後問一個問題，本席已經提出由政府擔負最終的支付責任保證，對這樣的提案，勞動部的立場會支持嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
許部長銘春：我們支持。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
楊委員曜：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
主席：謝謝楊曜委員。我們現在休息10分鐘。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][1] |
休息（10時39分） |
| gazette.blocks[40][2] |
繼續開會（10時50分） |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
主席：接下來請王育敏委員。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
286 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-26-5 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
黃秀芳 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
陳昭姿 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
陳菁徽 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
盧縣一 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
邱鎮軍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
蘇清泉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
涂權吉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
王正旭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
楊曜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
王育敏 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
李坤城 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
林淑芬 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
林月琴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
李彥秀 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
劉建國 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
張雅琳 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
黃仁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
吳春城 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
陳瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
廖偉翔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
林德福 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[26] |
葉元之 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
193 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-03-13 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1131301 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1131301_00005 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢 |
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1131301_00004 |
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謝謝主席。主席請一下許部長。請許部長。兩位委員好。部長好。部長我看...部長我看今天的業務報告,就有關年金改革的準備的部分,部裡面這邊還是一直停留在收集意見。 |
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對不對我看你們的給我報告收集意見跟溝通會不會會不會收集意見跟溝通的時間太長了部長不是我不是不是不是我我我知道這是一項很很嚴峻的工程我也不是想為難你可是因為我覺得好像每每一次 |
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每一次的業務報告有關年改的部分大概一直都是停留在收集意見跟評估那這樣子到底年改革什麼時候可以啟動什麼時候可以落實讓讓讓廣大的勞工可以得到安心到底什麼時候 |
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委員這個期程部分我們會來通盤的規劃只是說因為不是 現在部長我打岔一下部長我打岔一下就是說你假如說說今天來EO報告已經有期程 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
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那我可能還可以接受可是這6年來我看部長也已經認滿6年了這個是一個非常長壽的部長可是對於跟勞工這麼息息相關影響這麼重大的一個政策一直停留在 |
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在準備跟收集意見達到共識這個階段本席真的沒有辦法接受 |
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謝謝委員因為這部分的確是不容易因為勞工的人口數實在是太多每個產業勞工職業勞工的意見都不同關心的點都不同所以這個部分我也認為說這個其實應該要更我曾經在委員會跟部長討論過我覺得任何一項改革都不可能有共識 |
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吼都不可能有共識那我也知道欸勞工的的年齡改革為什麼困難就是因為他原本的的可以領到的給付就少那欸廣大的勞工也沒的受薪階級也沒有因為台灣的經濟成長的 |
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他的薪資等比例的增加所以要增加保費也有一定的阻力那要延後退可能會引發很大的風波所以我知道困難在哪裡可是也正因為困難所以才 |
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選民給民進黨機會就是要民進黨面對困難我還記得我們在從事軍功校年改的時候整個民進黨黨團大概受影響最大的就是我因為我澎湖的軍功校比例太高了可是我還是帶著鋼盔挺過了年改 |
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我也已經又當選兩屆了就是說應該像蔡英文總統講的就是應該要改革的就是必須要改革必須要想到一套方案出來讓退休的不恐懼讓正在繳保費的喜難這個是我們的責任 |
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296.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那我看這幾年就是提撥成為改革唯一的選項那這個本席也不反對甚至於我也已經提案把政府負擔最終的責任入法為什麼我這麼重視這件事情就是我講的這必須要讓勞動者有一個安定的心情 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
297.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
315.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
欸讓他知道知道任何人執政都不會放棄這一千多萬的老公朋友這一千多萬對台灣經濟有卓著貢獻的老公我我我 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
317.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
342.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我覺得我們必須要去面對現在就是這樣子就我剛才講的我知道改革的困難為什麼呢因為不要說減少給付就以目前的給付來看我們目前在請領勞工給付的人數大概有174萬平均每個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
346.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
367.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
領到的是18000多18000多可是最低台灣的最低生活費以台北市來講就已經高達19000多其台北市以外的地方平均值也已經將近到達15000 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
369.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
383.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那他現在領這樣子已經快要快要未達在臺北市已經未達未達最低生活費的標準了現在萬一再減少幾副怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
385.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
413.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
對,各位報告但是我們其實臺灣的產業勞工來看他其實他退休包括兩個一個就勞保另外一個就勞退這兩個加起來那當然還有一些健保啦長照現在是照顧我們的退休的人員健保跟長照是另外一回事啦我們就聚焦在勞工的部分就勞保跟勞退可是呢勞退的比例呢就是太低了 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
414.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
439.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
字體的部分太低了。字體比較低,但是固體拿到700多萬喔。大概是這樣子啦。前體體角數大概在106年的時候大概是14%多啦。那現在呢?就是到字體的部分。 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
441.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
464.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我們到去年年底是14.17%人數是106萬所以就是像部長講的沒有錯勞工的退休的保障我們的設計是架構在勞保跟勞退可是問題是勞退本身有一個現象就這14點幾% |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
467.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
493.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
他你你你仔細去看新知所得越高的越願意自提配合自提的部分那越低的呢因為他的所得本來就低所以他要再要再提出6%他可能有他的困難度不過我也還有一個固體6%固體6%是僱主一定要提撥的對我知道我知道那6%就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
495.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
497.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
響鈴 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
498.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
525.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那6%呢是大家都有我現在講的是6加6特別是以薪資低的勞工來看6加6才足以保障他的退休生活那因為他假如說本來就低薪他可以領的勞保給付本來就低 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
527.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
544.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
然後呢他又因為職涯的過程生活的所需教養子女孝敬父母所以他可能要自提這六趴對他來講就馬上面臨生活的困頓 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
547.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
569.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
部長你懂我的意思嗎?我知道我知道不過當然啦如果是低薪的齁可能多數都是低薪的低薪的字題很少啦對我們現在大概有統計啦齁大概平均啦齁報告委員平均我們那個月投保薪資大概就是平均大概3萬7啦齁如果以3萬7來看喔他的勞保 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
570.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
583.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
應照按照現在限制他大概是領1萬7左右然後再如果他的再加上勞退就是固體只算固體不算自體啦齁大概1萬所以這個加起來勞保加勞退大概有27700 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
585.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
610.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
就是像一個退休勞工以平均的月頭保薪資來看如果是37000平均大概我們抓大概37000這樣領起來有27000多對啊這種平均值就是這種平均值就是比較看不到看不到真正弱勢的啦保障弱勢呢是民進黨邁向指正最重要的一個一個一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
611.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
637.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
對對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
638.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
649.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我也知道很困難可是我常說不困難的事情怎麼輪得到我們做呢那不然我最後問一個問題就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
652.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
667.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
本席已經提出來政府擔負最終的支付責任的保證那這樣子的提案勞動部這邊的立場會支持嗎我們支持好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝楊耀文委員 |