| IVOD_ID |
149725 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149725 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-1-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期第4次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-12T14:46:31+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-12T15:11:40+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:25:09 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a29380261a02fc459c2c404b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a61e55ec2f4bd2b2985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳永康 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:46:31 - 15:11:40 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。
二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。
三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。） |
| gazette.lineno |
113 |
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陳委員永康：（14時46分）有請陳院長、邱部長。 |
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主席：麻煩請陳院長及國防部備詢，謝謝。 |
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陳院長建仁：陳委員午安，恭喜你當選立法委員。 |
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陳委員永康：首先，我感謝陳院長在本席就職之際贈送為民喉舌墨寶乙幀，現在掛在辦公室。 |
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陳院長建仁：好，謝謝。 |
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陳委員永康：我回想八年前我們在外交部參加替教廷駐華代辦榮升土耳其大使以及伊斯坦堡總主教的贈勳會場跟您結緣，這八年來，我佩服您在屬靈領域的卓著貢獻，也佩服您在心智上的堅定信仰，特別在這邊先表達敬意。 |
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陳院長建仁：謝謝。 |
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陳委員永康：本席軍旅生涯四十餘年，我也一直在懷抱追求和平的理念，奉信以國家安全、保衛人民、力行國家安全做為終極目標而努力，也看到院長近期長期備詢的辛勞，我覺得在質詢過程中間您可以放鬆一些，我會提出一些建言跟討論，請您做參考。 |
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陳院長建仁：好，謝謝，感恩。 |
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陳委員永康：因為本席目前專注於國防外交事務的監督審查，就議案權責與性質的覺知，融合國防外交做為國家安全的信念，我們希望把這個信念與價值觀用一個適宜的方法來討論並付諸實踐。 |
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在今年2月14日金廈水道發生三無漁船事件，因為海巡署的船艇在執法過程、追逐過程以及漁船的迴避過程，原來是企圖攔截臨檢登船，但是因為它做迴避，因此產生擦撞而翻船，最後不幸發生犧牲兩位漁民的結果。這個過程目前都在細部調查，我們不做預測，也不做論述，但是各位現在所看到的這個圖表，這是我們花了很多精神把整個過程中間所有引述的法案以及它的背景資料做出一個流程。事實上，我們用現在的科技已經幫它整合成一個資料庫，所以希望未來的每一個單位並不只是引述81年7月31日所公布的兩岸條例第二十九條、第三十二條，實際上，在這個裡面我們總共列選了14項，並不包括1982年聯合國海洋法公約裡面，所謂從3海里提升到12海里的臨海基線，以及每一個國家的臨海權這個範圍，但是基於這個流程，中間有過去動員戡亂法的這個宗旨，也有戰地政務的取消，也有人民條例的增設、修正，所以它實際上是一環扣一環。過去我們一般的政府機制，在回答問題的時候都是針對單獨一項引述某一個條例，我們現在做出這個流程，未來結合資料庫，所有的法案就掛在下面，那麼在跨部會協調甚至解釋的時候，可以做一個更清楚的論述，就不至於產生部分的疏漏或者是不周延的地方，而被引述成我們法律上有瑕疵，這一點值得共同努力。 |
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陳院長建仁：對。 |
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陳委員永康：尤其是這個，大家看到左側下方，依據國家安全法施行細則第二十五條的規定，所謂的海岸管制區是由國防部會同內政部根據海防實務需要，就臺灣地區海岸之海水低潮線以迄高潮線起算五百公尺以內，以及近岸沙洲來劃定之，但是這個文字實際上是非常地複雜，那麼我們的海圖所有的校正是由海軍的大氣海洋局來執行，做好了以後，這些圖由過去的聯勤現在軍備局的401廠來印製，但是整體的運用，國內所有不同的機制，商船、漁船的運用是由內政部來管制。目前除了紙本的海圖以外，已經有了電子海圖，分散不同，但是這個校準、精準度要有一個單位來統一協商，因此這一次產生這個漁船擦撞事件所衍生出來的法條問題、法源問題，以及運用不同的圖像、不同的電子檔的部分，我們並沒有一個完整的共同圖像來顯示整個事件發生的經過，因此由現在的法條上面產生的一個概念，我們希望提供行政院以下不同部會橫向協調參考的一個依據。 |
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陳院長建仁：謝謝。 |
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陳委員永康：各個部會可以在這個法條的方框裡面去延伸它更深入的連結，甚至哪些有修正，哪些要更新，因為回溯緣起，最早我們是取消動員戡亂，外島很多的法條取消了，一切回歸到國防部在外島的禁限制水域，可是這個禁限制水域又限制在108年的離島建設條例，它是89年4月5日生效的，依據條例第十八條，金馬地區試行通航，不受兩岸條例等法令之限制，也就是在解讀上面可能產生的一些前後不一致，我們是否要在這個上面做修正，以讓執法單位有所準、有所依據？就是在我們的領土主權以及依法執法上面，我相信第一線的部隊，不管是國軍或是海巡單位，它是貫徹命令、保障、維護我們國家的權益，但是在法源的依據上面，不應該產生解釋或者是認知上有不同的解讀跟落差，這一點我特別提出來，請院長來協助指導。 |
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過去我跟邱部長同事多年，現在國軍也在精進，在產生共同圖像。這一次金廈海事事件，共同圖像的功能還沒有產生它的效益，是不是請邱部長在這個上面提出您的看法跟回答？ |
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邱部長國正：是，我跟委員報告，共同圖像是我們軍中很注重的，因為我們共同圖像的運用就包含了陸海空三軍，同樣的狀況在這種共同圖像上看到的話是同樣的一個地點，不會有這種錯淆，現在要把各部會融在一道，這是一個很好的作法，因為畢竟我們國家的安全不光是國防部單獨的責任，我也不把這責任推給其他人，但最起碼各部會之間相互協調合作，共同來維護我們國家安全，這需要有一個共通的點，而這個點當中也包含了共同圖像，也是一個很重要的東西。我們會按照這個狀況跟各部會建議，不管是國安會或者院裡面，我會建議召開一個必要的協調會，怎麼樣把我們國軍目前有的共同圖像的作法，既能夠保密，又能夠運用很廣泛，這個我覺得是將來要很努力的一個方向，當然我們很樂見也期望可以達到國家安全大家共同維護的這個境地。 |
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陳院長建仁：也要謝謝委員，真的很認真，我學習了，我學了很多，真的很感動。 |
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陳委員永康：也特別感謝邱部長在這上面的大力支持，因為我瞭解我們目前的政府並沒有一個完整的國家安全戰略，雖然有安全的思維，但是沒有一個法定提報的國家安全戰略；美國在國家安全戰略上，每任總統就職都會提出；日本在2013年也提出了它的國家安全戰略，就是法制化。 |
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我特別要在這邊向各位解釋一下，這個發展的流程是經過怎麼樣的路徑、怎麼樣來收斂，首先，我們是要看全球環境影響力跟趨勢，它包括了區域的威脅、友盟的變質、國際組織、國際法律、資訊安全、氣候變遷、能源短缺、傳染病災難、國際經濟趨勢以及大規模毀滅性武器，最後嚴重影響價值觀，這是國際影響的。那麼國內的影響力及趨勢包括了經濟的情況、社會的需求、我們官僚體系的結構、政黨的形態、資訊的安全、能源的需求、媒體輿論、宗教文化、人口結構、環境保護、國會的結構，這兩個匯集起來統統影響我們國家安全戰略的制定。但是因為沒有國家安全戰略的制定，所以行政院在橫向協商，有關執法單位、有關國防單位，甚至海圖、甚至臨港、甚至是航圖，這個都是各司其職。但是就像剛才邱部長講的，並沒有能夠融合變成統一，就說大家有一個共同基準的概念，在一個相同的標準觀念下來執行，協商會比較方便。因此國家安全綜合評估的目標，包括兩岸、包括外交政策、包括國防政策，在這個部分行政院能夠協調的空間比較小，但是經濟政策、能源政策、資安政策、人口政策等等，整個7項融合起來會形塑國家安全戰略，它的目的是促進繁榮、確保民主、強化安全。因此現階段在下任政府接替之前，本席期許院長能夠朝這邊共同努力，先朝這個方向推動。 |
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我把國家安全戰略的施行方法在這邊向大家做說明跟報告，我們現在因為沒有國家安全戰略，所以在現況上產生了什麼呢？就是跨部會在資源分配不均、協商比較困難、策略執行不太容易、法制不夠周全、政策不容易同步，同時難以持續，因為換官員、換幕僚，它沒有一個上級政策的指導，很多東西就做了調整。我們國家安全戰略的預期目標就是確保國家安全與兩岸的和平穩定。我們如果制定國家安全戰略，我們的行動重心在政治面是趨利避害，在和平對等的前提下，堅守民主自由的體制；在經濟上，國際上也是互利互補，在公平正義的條件下，促進經貿與投資的成長；在軍事上要強軍慎戰，也是備戰、能戰、止戰，在國家安全的前提下，控管風險解決爭端；在社會上，我們要凝聚共識，在國防民生合一的前提下，強固基礎建設堅韌民心。 |
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在執行的手段上面，第一個，是可承擔的前提下，也就是在我們政府的負荷下，反映民眾的意志與決心，跨部會協調，這裡面還包括國際友邦及軍事友好同盟的關係，打造我們國家和平發展的環境。在可適用的前提下，評析當前與過去決策的落差，確認與國家安全有關的法源、組織與資源不足的地方，以及相關的限制因素。我們目前有國家安全法，裡面的細則都有對國內的要求，但是對於我們自己部會之間協調合作分攤的責任，沒有明確的制定。最後，在可信賴前提下，要設定預期的目標，以及可支助的能力，包括量能、權責，確保所需要的資源，並可有效建立全面性協調與可信條件。我們希望在下一任的政府接替以後，能夠推動制定國家安全戰略。現階段透過院長的指導，在橫向協調上給予各部會支援，也就是說責任的分攤跟有限的資源分配，以及反應的時間都是有極限的。 |
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陳院長建仁：對。 |
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陳委員永康：因此，如果沒有一個完整的概念，在協調過程中，國際情勢、國內情勢、兩岸情勢產生了變化，有的時候我們的決策是跟不上。所以這一點是需要大家共同的努力。 |
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最後，我顯示一個共同圖像。這張圖各位可以看到，包含東北亞朝鮮半島、東海、日本防空識別區、臺海防空識別區，還有中國大陸在2013年11月23日發布的東海防空識別區。因為中國大陸是國際民航組織的成員，所以它把國際防空識別區在國際的航圖上已經標註上去了，我們也希望國防部未來把東海防空識別區也能夠標註上去，因為我們防空識別區跟東海防空識別區重疊的部分就是中共最好運用的所謂「灰色地帶」，這個地方它對國際講我們是重疊區，所以這個區塊它的用兵跟它的兵力更容易消耗我們有形跟無形的戰力。但在法理上來講，防空識別區跟飛航情報區在國際航圖上是相同的，我們的防空識別區是在1954年由美國協防司令部協助我們規劃，但是到96飛彈危機以後共機出海，在國際民航圖上的顯示，就是海峽中線變成飛航情報區的邊線，因此很多的定義要在這個法條裡面略為說明。前一陣子，大家國內都關心503航線…… |
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陳院長建仁：對。 |
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陳委員永康：其實503是個航路，它是有一定的寬度，飛機南下北上，它有一定的距離，保持安全橫距上下2,000到4,000呎的間隔，所以它向左調向右調，如果是在航路範圍之內，我們尊重ICAO的要求，但是我們在監偵全程掌握情勢上仍然是不能夠放鬆。 |
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在這個圖上就顯示，比方講在與那國島、西表島、石垣島，以及美軍最近在巴丹島，還有菲律賓西南，菲律賓最近因為南海問題跟中共在引起爭端的就是中沙群島，我們在內政部的海圖，領海基線把它標註上去的，包括了黃岩島，我們又稱做民主礁，最近並沒有看到我們政府在這上面表達我們的政策跟立場，尤其是在南邊的仁愛礁，現在中共跟菲律賓的衝突算是蠻大的，但是中國大陸現在就是運用灰色區塊，它用它的海上民兵以及海上警察，其實他們的海警就是Coast Guard，問題是他們的海警並不是在一般的政府政策下，屬於非軍事單位，它是直屬中央軍委會，所以他們利用灰色區塊消耗鄰近國家有限的力量，這個是值得我們注意的。 |
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再下一步，各位看到這個圖塊，所有的國家安全是先由社會的堅韌、民心的安定、經濟的繁榮、軍事的堅強，才能夠達成海峽的和平，核心問題就是國家安全戰略，但是共同圖像是一個支持國家安全戰略的作業平臺，所以剛才向兩位提出來的，不只是國軍、不只是海巡，甚至跨部會在國防部協助支持下，可能構建一個基礎的共同平臺，大家對事物、對情勢的判斷有一個基本圖像，最後才會把政治、外交、經濟、軍事能源、社會、醫療、產業鏈納入我們國家安全的戰略體系，這對任何一個政府、任何一個政黨執政都是一個必須的條件。這邊請院長給我們一些回應，您未來如何在這方面支持跨部會的努力？ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
陳院長建仁：好，謝謝委員很完整而且很宏觀、很嚴密的說明國家安全體系，我學習到很多。實際上我也完全同意一個國家的安定，除了軍事的、外交的、兩岸的以外，還要有社會的、經濟的，這個我完全同意。目前在國家安全的體制上是由國安會在做通盤的整合，但是行政院這邊也會認真參考委員所提的意見，而且我們也會請同仁在國家安全體系的相關會議上，把這麼好的、很宏觀而且很細緻的建議在會議上討論。站在行政院的立場，在還沒有這樣討論之前，我們也會讓各個部會瞭解在國家安全上所扮演的角色，當然這裡面最重要的就是我們國防部，我請部長簡單的說明一下，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
邱部長國正：報告委員，委員剛才講得很精闢，我在這邊聽了以後歸納成兩個重點，第一個，沒有錯，按照我們的大戰略延續下來的話，一定要有國家戰略才有軍事戰略，這是下面的一環，而軍事戰略又分成略、術、鬥、技、具、作戰區等等，我想我們講的軍事術語，一般人很難瞭解，但我簡單的講，大學裡有一句話「物有本末，事有終始，知所先後，則近道矣」，要有大戰略，國家戰略是大的、是主，它也是先，要先有了以後，後續再延伸出來，所以我們目前好像聽起來還沒有一個頭，事實上我們國家在國防政策或國家安全方面都有一個很清楚的敘述，就為了要防衛國家安全。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][1] |
在軍事方面的話，我跟委員報告，我也相信略、術、鬥、技、具的概念，戰略、戰鬥、戰技、戰具等等，由上向下是指導，要有戰略才會有戰術，要有戰術才會有戰鬥，由下往上是支持，假如沒有一個好的戰具，戰技則沒辦法發揮，所以這個關係也很清楚，概念有了以後，跟各部會之間的協調，我們一定會針對我們該做哪一部分，各部應該要強調、強化哪一方面，我想這樣可以把目標定得很明確，各部會作業起來也很明快，這是第一個。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][2] |
第二個，剛剛委員講了很多有關共同圖像，尤其東海防空識別區，沒有錯，它都有一個來龍，才會有這個去脈的。目前我們國軍在每個圖上面，東海識別區、防空識別區是有畫出來，因為畫出來我們才發覺它跟日本、跟韓國會有一些重疊，甚至於就被貼到了，以至於造成東北亞跟東海這個地方，甚至於西太平洋方面，會有很多扞格，就是這個原因。這要透過一個國際管道跟我們平常各部會的努力，大家共同的圖像有了、認知有了、意念一致了，國家以後作業相互要合作的項目等等就會很快地明確了，在此跟委員說明。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
陳委員永康：最近美國蘭德公司2024發布的威脅評估裡面，特別強調了一個共同圖像（COP，Common Operational Picture），今天早晨本黨陳玉珍委員在問政時提到金廈水道的時候，也講到要有一個清晰的描記跟法條的引述，我想經由院長剛才的陳述以及邱部長的解釋，我們今後在跨部會的協商、橫向協調上，一定可以做得更為精進，感謝今天兩位給我的回應，我想我們共同努力，因為國家安全是需要整合全國的民心，在有限的資源、有限的時間反應下，我們要做出適當的決策，時間有限、資源有限，大家共同努力，也感謝兩位的回答，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
陳院長建仁：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
邱部長國正：謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
主席：謝謝陳委員永康的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][1] |
報告院會，下面一位是第5號楊曜委員，他改以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
184 |
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院會-11-1-4 |
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韓國瑜 |
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麥玉珍 |
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范雲 |
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陳玉珍 |
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謝龍介 |
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吳沛憶 |
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李彥秀 |
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馬文君 |
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李坤城 |
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沈伯洋 |
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張雅琳 |
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吳宗憲 |
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徐巧芯 |
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陳永康 |
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楊曜 |
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陳俊宇 |
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邱鎮軍 |
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蘇清泉 |
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劉建國 |
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張嘉郡 |
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陳超明 |
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陳秀寳 |
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99 |
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2024-03-12 |
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立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄 |
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施政質詢
對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─ |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
2.213 |
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陳委員午安,恭喜你當選立法委員首先我感謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
31.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
54.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
陳院長在本席就職之際贈送衛名喉舌墨寶以珍,現在掛在辦公室。我回想8年前我們在外交部參加替教廷駐華代辦榮生土耳其大使以及伊斯坦堡總主教的這個政訓會場跟您結緣。 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
57.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
57.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
﹚陳永康﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
73.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
73.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
議員：陳永康 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
97.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
122.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
質詢過程中間您可以放鬆一些。我會提出一些建言跟討論。請您做參考。因為本席的目前專注於國防外交事務的監督審查就議案全責他與性質的覺知融合國防外交作為國家安全的信念。我們希望把這個信念 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
123.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
126.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
與價值觀用一個示儀的方法來討論付諸實踐。那麼在 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
130.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
154.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
今年的2月14日的荊下水道發生三無漁船,因為海巡署的這個船艇在執法過程、追逐過程以及漁船的迴避過程,原來是企圖攔截、領檢、登船,但是因為他做迴避,因此產生擦撞、翻船,最後產生兩位不幸犧牲漁民的這個結果。 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
156.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
176.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
這個過程目前都在西部調查,我們不做這個預測也不做論述,但是各位你現在所看到的這個圖表就是我們花了很多的精神把這個整個的過程中間所有引述的法案以及它的背景資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
177.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
177.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
﹚陳永康﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
199.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
216.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
實際上在這個裡面我們總共列選了14項,並不包括1982年聯合國海洋法公約裡面所謂從3海里提升到12海里的領海基線以及每一個國家的領海權它的這個範圍。 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
218.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
234.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
但是基於這個流程中間有過去動員勘亂法的這個終止那麼也有戰地政務的取消也有人民條例的增設修正所以它實際上是一環扣一環 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
234.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
235.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
﹚陳永康﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
261.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
261.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
﹚廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
278.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
306.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
一、據《國家安全法》實例第25條所謂的海岸管制區是由國防部會同內政部根據海防實務的需要就台灣地區海岸的海水低潮線以其高潮線算起500公尺以內以及近岸沙洲來劃定之但是這個文字實際上是非常的複雜那麼我們的海圖所有的校正是由海軍的大氣海洋局來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
307.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
308.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
﹚陳永康﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
330.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
330.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
﹚陳永康﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
348.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
348.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
﹚陳永康 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
365.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
365.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
﹚陳永康 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
387.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
388.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
402.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
402.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
429.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
429.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
﹚陳永康﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
450.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
450.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
481.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
506.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
他是共同圖像是我們軍中很注重的因為這個我們共同圖像運用啊就包含了陸海空三軍就同樣的狀況在這種共同圖像上看到的話是同樣的一個地點的不過有這種錯遙那現在要把這個各部位來融在一道這是一個很好的一個做法因為畢竟我們這個國家安全啊不光是國防部單獨的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
507.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
522.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我也不把這個時間推給其他人,但最起碼各部會之間相互協調合作,共同來維護我們國家安全,這需要一個共通的點,而這個點也就當中也包含了共同圖像,也是一個很重要的東西。 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
523.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
551.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我們會按照這個狀況會跟各部會我們會建議不管是國安會或者院裡面我會建議要召開一個必要的協調會怎麼樣把我們國軍目前有的共同圖像的做法既然能夠保密又能夠運用很廣泛這個我覺得是將來很努力的要努力的一個方向但我們很樂見也期望可以達到國家安全大家共同維護的這個境地 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
553.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
571.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
謝謝委員,真的很認真,我學習了,學了很多,真的很感動。也特別感謝邱部長在這上面的大力支持,因為我了解我們現在目前的政府並沒有一個完整的國家安全戰略,雖然 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
573.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
574.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
日本在2013年也提出了他的國家安全戰略,就是法治化。 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
593.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
618.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我特別在這邊向各位解釋一下這個發展的流程是經過怎麼樣的路徑怎麼樣來收斂首先我們是要看全球環境影響力跟趨勢它包括了區域的威脅有盟的變質國際組織國際法律資訊安全氣候變遷能源短缺 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
619.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
621.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
國內影響勢力趨勢包括經濟情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
637.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
657.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
社會的需求、我們官僚體系的結構、政黨的形態、資訊的安全、能源的需求、媒體、輿論、宗教文化、人口結構、環境保護、國會的結構這兩個匯集起來通通影響我們國家安全戰略的制定。 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
658.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
687.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
但是因為沒有國家安全戰略的制定所以行政院在橫向協商有關執法單位有關國防單位甚至海圖甚至領港甚至是航圖那這個都是各司其職但是呢就像剛才邱部長講的並沒有能夠融合變成統一就是說大家有一個共同基準的概念在一個相同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
688.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
689.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
﹚陳永康 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
705.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
726.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
但是經濟政策、能源政策、治安政策、人口政策,它整個這個氣象融合起來會形塑國家安全戰略。它的目的是促進繁榮、確保民主、強化安全。因此在現階段在下任府接替之前, |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
727.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
754.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那麼本席期許院長能夠朝這邊共同努力先朝這個方向推動那麼我把國家安全戰略它的一個施行方法在這邊向大家做一個說明跟報告我們現在因為沒有國家安全戰略所以在現況上產生了什麼呢就是跨部會在資源分配不均協商比較困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
756.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
780.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
策略執行不太容易,法制不夠周全,政策不容易同步,同時難以持續,因為換官員換幕僚,他沒有一個上級政策的指導,很多東西就做了調整。我們預期的目標,國家安全戰略的目標,就是確保國家安全與兩岸的和平穩定。 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
782.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
802.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那麼我們如果制定國家安全戰略我們的行動重心在政治面是趨利避害在和平對等的前提下堅守民主自由的體制在經濟上是國際上也是互利互補在公平正義的條件下促進經貿與投資的成長在軍事上要強軍勝戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
808.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
808.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
﹚陳永康 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
826.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
849.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那麼在這個執行的這個手段上面第一個是可承擔的前提下也就是說我們政府的複合下反映民眾的意志與決心跨部會協調這裡面還包括國際友邦及軍事這個友好同盟的關係打造我們國家和平發展的環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
850.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
878.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那麼在可適用的前提下平息當前與過去決策的落差確認與國家安全有關的法案組織與資源不足的地方以及相關的限制因素我們目前有國家安全法裡面的細則都有對國內的要求但是對於我們自己部會之間協調合作分攤的責任沒有明確的制定 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
879.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
895.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
所以最後是在可信在前提下要設定預期的目標以及可資助的能力包括量能這個權責確保所需要的資源並可有效建立全面性協調與這個可信的條件。 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
899.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
925.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那麼我們希望在下一任的政府接替以後能夠推動制定國家安全戰略那麼現階段透過院長的指導在橫向協調上給予各部會的資源也就是說責任的分攤跟有限的資源分配以及反映的時間它都是有極限的因此如果沒有一個完整的概念在協調過程中 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
927.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
947.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
國際情勢、國內情勢、兩岸情勢,它產生的變化有的時候我們的決策是跟不上,所以這一點是需要大家共同的努力。那麼最後面我顯示一個共同圖像,這張圖各位可以看到包含東北亞、朝鮮半島、東海。 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
949.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
976.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
日本防空識別區、台海防空識別區還有中國大陸在2013年11月23日他發布的東海防空識別區因為中國大陸是國際民航組織的成員所以他把這個國際防空識別區在國際的航圖上已經標註上去了那麼我們也希望國防部未來把這個東海防空識別區也能夠標註上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
978.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
978.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
﹚陳永康 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
996.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
996.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
﹚陳永康 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1026.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1043.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
因此很多的定義要在這個法條裡面做略為說明。我們前一陣子大家國內都關心503航線。其實503是個航路,它是有一定的寬度,飛機南下北上它有一定的距離。 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1044.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1044.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
在這個圖上就顯示比方講在與那國島 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1070.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1071.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
﹚陳永康﹚陳永康﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1095.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1095.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
﹚陳永康 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1116.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1143.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
他用他的海上民兵以及他的所謂海上警察其實他的海警就是coast guard問題是他的海警並不是在一般的政策像政府像屬於非軍事單位他是屬於中央軍委會所以他利用灰色區塊消耗鄰近國家的有限的這個力量那這個是值得我們要注意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1144.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1158.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
由於這個圖塊在下一步各位看到我們的所有的國家安全是先由社會的堅韌、民心的安定、經濟的繁榮 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1159.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1160.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
主席﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1179.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1179.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
﹚陳永康﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1204.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1204.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
謝謝委員,這個很完整而且很宏觀。 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1228.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1252.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
嚴密的這樣的一個說明國家這個安全體系我覺得學習很多那從這裡我也完全同意實際上一個國家的安定除了軍事的外交的兩岸的以外還要有社會的經濟的這個我完全同意那目前在國家安全的這個體制上是由國安會在做通盤的這個整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1253.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1278.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
但是行政院這邊也會來認真的參考委員所提的這些意見而且我們也會請同仁在國家安全體系的這個相關會議上把這麼好的很這個宏觀而且很細緻的這個建議在這個會議上討論那站在行政院的立場在還沒有這樣討論之前我們也會讓各個部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1279.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1279.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
請部長簡單的說明一下。 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1291.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1316.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
報告委員,剛才那個委員講得很精闢,事實上我在這邊聽了以後歸納成兩個重點。第一個沒有錯,我們按照我們的大戰略延續下來講的話,一定要有國家戰略,才有軍事戰略,這下面的一環。而軍事戰略又分成一個略速鬥技具,作戰區等等。我跟你講我們講的軍事術語一般人很難去了解,但我簡單的講, |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1318.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1332.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我們大學裡有一句話,物有本末,事有終始,之所先後則盡道矣。 有大戰略,國家戰略是大的,是主,然後它是先,要先有了以後,後續延伸出來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1333.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1359.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
所以我們現在目前聽來好像還沒有一個頭出來事實上我們國家在國防政策或國家安全方面都很清楚的敘述就為了要防衛國家安全那在軍事方面的話我跟委員報告我也相信講說我們略出鬥技具的概念戰略、戰鬥、戰技、戰具等等它由上向下是一個指導的 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1359.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1388.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
要有這個戰略才會有戰術,要有戰術才會有戰鬥,但由下往上的是支持,你想你沒有一個好的一個戰距,你的戰績沒辦法發揮,所以這個關係也很清楚,但是概念有了以後,所以跟各部會是今天協調,我們一定會做一個,我們該做哪一部分,貴部應該要強調強化哪一個方面,我想這樣的話可以把這個目標定的很明確,各部會作業起來也很明快,這第一個。 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1389.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1411.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
第二,剛剛委員講了很多句有關共同土象,尤其東海防空識別區沒有錯,它都有一個來龍才會有這個去脈的。那我們目前國軍在這個每個圖上面,東海識別區防空識別區有話傳,因為話傳我們才發覺,它跟日本跟韓國會有一些啊,可以重疊甚而是一行,就可以貼到的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1411.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1435.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
所以以至於造成東北亞跟東海這個地方甚至於西太平洋方面會有很多這個啊這個看格就是這個原因那這要透過一個國際管道跟我們平常啊各部會這個努力大家共同圖像有了認知有了意念一致了國家以後作業相互啊要合作項目等等就很就很快明確我這跟委員處說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1437.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1464.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
最近美國蘭德公司2024發布的那個威脅, 裡面特別強調了一個共同圖像,COP,Common Operational Picture。那麼今天早晨本黨陳玉珍委員在問政提到金下水稻的時候也講到要有一個清晰的苗籍跟法條的引述。我想經由這個院長剛才的陳述以及邱部長的解釋, |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1464.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1486.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我們今後在跨部會的協商、橫向協調上一定可以做得更為精進。那麼也感謝今天兩位給我的回應。我想我們共同努力,因為國家安全是需要整合全國的民心。在有限的資源、有限的時間反應下,我們要做出適當的決策。 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1490.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1509.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
時間有限,資源有限,大家共同努力,也感謝兩位的回答,謝謝。謝謝陳委員永康的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的悲訓。報告委員會,外交及國防組織,喔對不起,下面一位。 |