| IVOD_ID |
149714 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149714 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-1-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期第4次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-12T09:48:24+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-12T10:04:13+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:49 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a29388eb97fc1d2b59be704b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a6881215e59f4c0ebf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
謝龍介 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:48:24 - 10:04:13 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。
二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。
三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。） |
| gazette.lineno |
263 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
謝委員龍介：（9時48分）院長，我請陳院長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：麻煩再請陳院長備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
陳院長建仁：謝委員早。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
謝委員龍介：陳院長早，很遺憾在這裡，你還記得臺中的事件發生之後，我們剛好就延宕了大概二個禮拜都在討論西布特羅的事情 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
陳院長建仁：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
謝委員龍介：結果事情你也知道，我們臺灣人說的「賠錢的生意沒人做，殺頭的生意有人做」。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
陳院長建仁：沒錯。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
謝委員龍介：有暴利嘛！一開始發現蘇丹紅，當然你的態度很清楚，我也知道你看事情很科學，不過貴黨有一些委員在這裡，你卻變成配合他們，會讓所有臺灣人覺得很像是檢驗到的時候，應該要給當事人15天的緩衝期，剛好那個時候驗出蘇丹紅的時候，你看我們就多吃15天的蘇丹紅。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
陳院長建仁：沒有，這兩件事情不一樣。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
謝委員龍介：沒有，社會就是這樣，為什麼？當初你在這裡做這樣的發表時…… |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
陳院長建仁：不是這樣，你混淆了兩件事情。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
謝委員龍介：造成地方驗到時，行政院長就說這個單位要先讓人申訴15天啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
陳院長建仁：沒有，你這樣說完全不對。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
謝委員龍介：我這不是說……不是你的問題啦，問題不是你的問題，所以…… |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
陳院長建仁：雲林縣政府查出來以後馬上就有通報、馬上叫它下架，這兩件事情不能混為一談。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
謝委員龍介：因為本席在這裡有問你，我問你說零檢出驗到的時候是不是應該要即時公布，你也說是嘛，你那時是這樣回答我的，你忘記了？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
陳院長建仁：現在你在說西布特羅…… |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
謝委員龍介：我問你的時候你忘記了嗎？我跟你說，零檢出萊克多巴胺、乙型受體素是零檢出，但是地方檢驗機關如果驗到是不是要即時公布？你跟我說是啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
陳院長建仁：如果是正確的時候，是。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
謝委員龍介：我告訴你…… |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
陳院長建仁：對，我本來都這樣講。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
謝委員龍介：所有的那個……好，來，等你們最後的調查報告出來，也沒有說實驗室受到污染呀，這樣它為什麼不正確？ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
陳院長建仁：但是那個報告…… |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
謝委員龍介：你們當時怎麼樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
陳院長建仁：那個報告裡面…… |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
謝委員龍介：不是啦，你們當時是強力……我現在不是要跟你說過去的事情了，那也已經告一段落嘛﹗ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
陳院長建仁：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
謝委員龍介：你現在看到這蘇丹紅這麼嚴重，你就知道……我請教你，我要你去調查過去有這個案例嗎？海關驗到要求退關的時候如果沒有退關，有勾結，變更名稱又再進來！ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
陳院長建仁：它有退關。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
謝委員龍介：有退關？ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
陳院長建仁：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
謝委員龍介：你肯定全部都有退關？ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
陳院長建仁：蘇丹紅這件事情，如果有辣椒粉檢驗到蘇丹紅就要退關。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
謝委員龍介：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
陳院長建仁：退關…… |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
謝委員龍介：部長說怎樣？你的部長說，怎麼知道你們大家都很愛吃辣！我覺得你的部長回答這個實在是…… |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
陳院長建仁：這個大家愛吃辣…… |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
謝委員龍介：多少鄉親多麼憤慨呢！ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
陳院長建仁：愛吃辣這是我們人民的習慣啦，但是…… |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
謝委員龍介：那他怎麼可以怪我們愛吃辣呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
陳院長建仁：沒有啦，沒人怪啦、沒人怪！我覺得要尊重大家…… |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
謝委員龍介：部長就是這樣說啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
陳院長建仁：要尊重大家的口味啦。 |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
謝委員龍介：所以你要跟他溝通一下啦。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
陳院長建仁：好，我來跟他溝通。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
謝委員龍介：這種失言是沒必要的嘛。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
陳院長建仁：是，確實。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
謝委員龍介：我現在請教你身分證的事情，你知道吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
陳院長建仁：我知道，你說電子身分證嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
謝委員龍介：是啦。 |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
陳院長建仁：好，要講清楚。 |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
謝委員龍介：這件事情很嚴重啦，林部長，我看請教你一下，來。 |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
主席：麻煩請內政部。 |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
謝委員龍介：院長，有些細節我不知道你瞭不瞭解。 |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
陳院長建仁：有啦，這我知道有這個…… |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
謝委員龍介：現在我們臺灣人所聽到、理解到的就是我們要賠償2.8億啊，你們從官方發布的就是說，不是賠償、是降低損失啊。但是我請教院長，本席所接收到的是，不是2.8億欸，你們還有付一筆4.3億給人家，你知道嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
陳院長建仁：這讓我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
林部長右昌：委員，你說4.3億是哪一部分？ |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
謝委員龍介：所以院長你不知道，那我請教你，部長，2.8億有沒有包括那些機器？ |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
林部長右昌：機器是現在已經存在的。 |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
謝委員龍介：機器存在？不是啦，機器存在花多少錢？你跟我講一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
林部長右昌：機器存在因為它是已經支付出去、已經是架構…… |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
謝委員龍介：對啊！你把付機器的錢另外講，本來我們說的全部十億多就是包括機器喔，你現在說：「沒有，我們只降到2.8億。」讓我們覺得好像你很會做事啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
林部長右昌：不過委員那個機器是資產。 |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
謝委員龍介：只有2.8億就解決了。 |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
林部長右昌：機器是資產。 |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
謝委員龍介：資產？來，我跟你說，你的機器等到我們要重新發行數位身分證的時候，這些機器還可以使用嗎？沒有人知道。院長，你也不知道這些機器買好了。 |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
陳院長建仁：我知道、我知道，機器買好了。 |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
謝委員龍介：付錢了嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
陳院長建仁：但是機器就是…… |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
謝委員龍介：總共付多少錢？是不是付4.3億？部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
林部長右昌：這些機器從它進口之後全部都是依照我們相關的規定在做運作，它不使用之後其實就是封存。 |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
謝委員龍介：機器就是在整包裡面，又不是你進口的！也是廠商進的，所以我們討論的時候全部會有十億多嘛，你現在卻把機器繳的當作另外繳的，現在說只有2.8，你讓所有臺灣人以為說十億多你「喬」到2.8億，很厲害、真厲害，可以出國比賽！不能這樣啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
林部長右昌：沒有啦，不是，委員不是…… |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
謝委員龍介：你如果用這種手法，你要公開跟臺灣人說嘛！這條我們就是賠償了幾億，機器的部分我請教你一下…… |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
陳院長建仁：我講一下話好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
謝委員龍介：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
陳院長建仁：委員，是這樣的，如果我們要用數位ID的時候，我們就要有機器、要有卡片的材料，現在因為數位身分證還沒有要實施，但是這個機器和材料還可以用在其他的用途…… |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
謝委員龍介：院長這樣說就對了嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
林部長右昌：它還有其他的使用用途…… |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
謝委員龍介：你最講科學的嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[81][0] |
陳院長建仁：是啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
謝委員龍介：我問你，這些機器要怎麼保養？你跟我說要放在哪裡？ |
| gazette.blocks[83][0] |
陳院長建仁：這些機器現在是在…… |
| gazette.blocks[84][0] |
謝委員龍介：放在哪裡？ |
| gazette.blocks[85][0] |
林部長右昌：我跟委員報告，我如果沒有記錯，現在機器應該是在中央印製廠，但是它不是就把它封存，它必須要開機，不然機器會壞掉。 |
| gazette.blocks[86][0] |
謝委員龍介：這些機器要開機喔！不然會壞掉喔！各位臺灣鄉親聽到了嗎？還要吹冷氣喔！還不知道可以用多久，還要再維修喔！沒有啦，不要這樣啦！我跟你講…… |
| gazette.blocks[87][0] |
林部長右昌：它不是維修，是低度讓它運轉。 |
| gazette.blocks[88][0] |
謝委員龍介：我們說保養，保養啦！不要說維修啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
林部長右昌：讓它維持一個良好的狀態。 |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
謝委員龍介：低度運轉？院長我跟你說，因為當時所有的團體各界都說有個資問題，我知道這不是你的決策。 |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
陳院長建仁：隱私問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
謝委員龍介：明明有這個問題，卻還是硬要去做，硬要去做！ |
| gazette.blocks[93][0] |
陳院長建仁：在110年的時候就決定暫緩了。 |
| gazette.blocks[94][0] |
謝委員龍介：對，110年時就是你們好朋友賴清德，現在的賴總統，人不怕犯錯，但遇到事情要面對，院長這就是標準的「吃緊弄破碗」，你有這樣覺得嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[95][0] |
陳院長建仁：沒有啦！當初在溝通的過程中…… |
| gazette.blocks[96][0] |
謝委員龍介：不管是什麼，現在出來就是要賠這麼多錢，部長，機器是不是4.3億？ |
| gazette.blocks[97][0] |
林部長右昌：跟委員報告…… |
| gazette.blocks[98][0] |
謝委員龍介：是不是付了4.3億？ |
| gazette.blocks[99][0] |
林部長右昌：跟委員報告一下，因為這一個政策其實是一個持續性、從民國101年的時候就開始…… |
| gazette.blocks[100][0] |
謝委員龍介：部長，你花了多少錢你都沒有要向臺灣人報告。 |
| gazette.blocks[101][0] |
林部長右昌：沒有，剛剛委員已經講過了，因為這個機器是採購…… |
| gazette.blocks[102][0] |
謝委員龍介：採購多少錢嘛！你怎麼這樣？為什麼不能講呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[103][0] |
林部長右昌：委員剛剛已經講過了…… |
| gazette.blocks[104][0] |
謝委員龍介：有保密條款嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[105][0] |
林部長右昌：沒有，委員剛剛已經講過了。 |
| gazette.blocks[106][0] |
謝委員龍介：沒有，那我講的對不對啊？我說用4億3,000萬買機器，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[107][0] |
林部長右昌：這個數字我再跟委員確認，不過這個數字應該……我們有支付買機器的款項。 |
| gazette.blocks[108][0] |
陳院長建仁：對啦！確實有買機器。 |
| gazette.blocks[109][0] |
謝委員龍介：我跟國人報告，院長你要瞭解、你要去查嘛！要去瞭解一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[110][0] |
陳院長建仁：有啦！有買機器是事實。 |
| gazette.blocks[111][0] |
林部長右昌：這個本來就有啊！剛剛都跟委員說明了。 |
| gazette.blocks[112][0] |
謝委員龍介：當時在協議的時候就是包括買機器、維修、租金還有作業費，所以大約十億多，但你們現在讓我們理解的是全部只有2億8，只有2億8,000萬，所以我們已經降低損失了，不要這樣啦！部長，這是態度問題嘛！這也不是你任內的政策嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[113][0] |
陳院長建仁：不是啦！這機器還能用、材料也還能用…… |
| gazette.blocks[114][0] |
謝委員龍介：你要來的時候就買完了，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[115][0] |
林部長右昌：對，我到任的時候就已經採購完了。 |
| gazette.blocks[116][0] |
謝委員龍介：那為什麼不能把真相讓國人理解？ |
| gazette.blocks[117][0] |
林部長右昌：委員，這個之前都已經公開說明過了。 |
| gazette.blocks[118][0] |
謝委員龍介：我問問看臺灣人，看哪一個會知道，現在院長瞭解的跟臺灣人聽到的是不一樣的，這件事情等於我們要賠償2億8給廠商，但我們也已經付給他四億多機器的費用，這些機器還要維修、還要低度運轉，幾年後不知道我們還要不要做這個身分證，這些機器等於沒用了，你現在還在讓它運轉，所以沒有虧損，機器買來備用，你是學科學的，我覺得這樣…… |
| gazette.blocks[119][0] |
陳院長建仁：因為我學科學，所以這機器現在還有在備用就是可以用啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[120][0] |
謝委員龍介：院長，好，你說還在用，如果到時不能用，所有多出來的費用你要負責嗎？不可能叫你負責嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[121][0] |
陳院長建仁：我剛剛就說過，這個智慧數位ID本來就還在持續溝通當中嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[122][0] |
謝委員龍介：我跟你保證3年內不會做，那3年後這些機器要怎麼辦？不要只推給後面的人。院長，整個決策過程，為了數位身分證這件事情，你可以代表政府向臺灣人民道歉一下嗎？這個決策就是我所謂的「呷緊弄破碗」，道歉就好，說一聲抱歉你覺得有需要嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[123][0] |
陳院長建仁：這件事情當初在決定的時候，確確實實在溝通的時候大家有不同的意見，所以政府目前是暫緩實施，未來持續溝通以後再看結果是怎麼樣，到目前為止，確實讓大家等了好久，但還是沒有實施啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[124][0] |
謝委員龍介：你會覺得不好意思嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[125][0] |
陳院長建仁：我覺得政府針對這一點當然要向民眾表達確實在溝通過程當中沒有那麼順利。 |
| gazette.blocks[126][0] |
謝委員龍介：沒有那麼順利？一句抱歉這麼難說出口嗎？我認為這根本沒什麼，前面的人做的決策，你今天只要說一聲抱歉，這是代表你的高度，我是長期以來都很欣賞你，針對我所說的「呷緊弄破碗」，其實並不是虧損2.8億，現在等於是最少2.8億就拍板要付款賠償了，包括付出去的這4億多，包括未來維修的費用，我用謝龍介三個字向院長保證，整個加起來超過10億，包括內政部內部，現在就是所有機器假如最後我們要的方案……為什麼會因為個資的問題不敢做下去？難道這些機器沒有問題嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[127][0] |
陳院長建仁：機器是沒有問題啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[128][0] |
謝委員龍介：你不要想全部都是軟體的問題而已喔！如果你軟體改到很周全，我跟你說，這些機器還要再調整。我不是在逼你，我是說這件事情要讓國人理解…… |
| gazette.blocks[129][0] |
陳院長建仁：現在還在溝通當中。 |
| gazette.blocks[130][0] |
謝委員龍介：這不是只有2.8億，已經八億多了啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[130][1] |
不要緊，內政部還有一件事情，臺南市最近發生天坑的問題。院長，從有歷史以來，過去發生這種下陷的幾乎都是地下室開挖占70%以上，當然有一些是公共工程。這種預防性的監測，內政部之前也曾研究、研議過，國土署是不是要針對地下室開挖深度超過多少就要委外給公正單位和技術專業單位來進行監測，當然成本會提高一些，但是安全會無上增加，請問院長的看法呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[131][0] |
陳院長建仁：我覺得工地的安全很重要，這…… |
| gazette.blocks[132][0] |
謝委員龍介：你知道現在有超音波可以探測嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[133][0] |
陳院長建仁：針對專業的部分，我請內政部部長簡單說明一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[134][0] |
林部長右昌：謝謝委員。從臺北市基泰發生事情之後，其實一直在討論這個課題，當然我們相關開挖的規範都有，你提到第三方的監測，我們現在正在審慎評估這一部分。 |
| gazette.blocks[135][0] |
謝委員龍介：有沒有必要嘛？部長，有沒有必要？ |
| gazette.blocks[136][0] |
陳院長建仁：在評估中。 |
| gazette.blocks[137][0] |
林部長右昌：我想從安全的…… |
| gazette.blocks[138][0] |
謝委員龍介：院長，我們都很清楚這是必要的嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[139][0] |
林部長右昌：從社會…… |
| gazette.blocks[140][0] |
陳院長建仁：對啦，但是技術……你就說你要問…… |
| gazette.blocks[141][0] |
謝委員龍介：這個成本不會增加很多啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[142][0] |
陳院長建仁：你是問技術上可以提前、超前監測嗎？這就要研議嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[143][0] |
謝委員龍介：可以、可以，因為他們已經研議過了，只是細則還沒訂出來。 |
| gazette.blocks[144][0] |
林部長右昌：因為這個還需要跟…… |
| gazette.blocks[145][0] |
謝委員龍介：你和國土署再研究一下啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[146][0] |
林部長右昌：我們需要跟地方政府還有一些…… |
| gazette.blocks[147][0] |
主席：謝謝謝委員龍介，因為時間已到，我們請行政院給您書面答復好不好？謝謝陳院長備詢，也謝謝謝龍介委員質詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[147][1] |
接下來我們請登記第5位的吳委員沛憶質詢。吳委員沛憶的質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。 |
| gazette.blocks[148][0] |
委員吳沛憶書面質詢： |
| gazette.blocks[148][1] |
武漢肺炎疫情爆發後全球政經情勢轉變，未來通膨壓力將持續加深，雖然台灣物價相對國際控制得當，但仍造成貧富差距擴大、階級複製等問題。其中高房價為民怨之首，越來越多年輕人及中產階級有「買不起」、「租不起」或「住不好」的問題，「居住正義」成為台灣青年族群最關注議題，政府為確保人民基本居住需求獲得滿足，推動社會住宅興辦政策及租金補貼措施，雖初步收到成效，但仍須持續精進以保障人民居住權益。 |
| gazette.blocks[148][2] |
一、政府自2017年開始辦理社會住宅興建計畫，預定至2024年直接興建12萬戶及包租代管8萬戶。截至2023年底，已興建94,043戶社會住宅，包租代管媒合72,370戶，2024年底可望達成8年20萬戶目標。惟，已興建不等於可入住，目前興建之社宅實際可入住戶數為28,483戶，使外界質疑進度不彰，請內政部明確回覆興建社宅達可入住之具體期程，並提升社宅興辦速度。 |
| gazette.blocks[148][3] |
二、社會住宅原意為保障社經弱勢、青年及部分中產階級居住權益。然而，目前營運中社宅租金多以周邊市場租金行情8折為準，以臺北市明倫社宅為例，2020年開放招租時3房型租金高達40,500元，遭輿論熱議為「社會豪宅」。社宅租金收費基準，應依照「可負擔標準」訂定，請內政部盤點現行各地租金定價原則，盡速協調地方政府，制定全國一致性的原則，提供具體規劃方案。 |
| gazette.blocks[148][4] |
三、為照顧青年居住權益，內政部於2022年7月開辦租金補貼政策，去年確認續辦後更擴大為租金補貼2.0，放寬申請及適用標準，截至今年2月底核定件數已達43萬戶，預定今年7月可望超過50萬戶目標，雖然政策推行順利，但仍有房客表達遭房東惡意調漲租金或要求不可申請租屋補助之情形。內政部在執行政策的同時，除制定保障租客權益的措施，仍須加強對社會大眾做政策說明，使租屋族知曉自身權益，才能達到照顧青年、中產階級及社經弱勢者之政策初衷。 |
| gazette.blocks[149][0] |
主席：接下來我們請登記第6位李委員彥秀質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
184 |
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院會-11-1-4 |
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韓國瑜 |
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麥玉珍 |
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范雲 |
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陳玉珍 |
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謝龍介 |
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吳沛憶 |
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李彥秀 |
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馬文君 |
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李坤城 |
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沈伯洋 |
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張雅琳 |
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吳宗憲 |
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徐巧芯 |
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陳永康 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
楊曜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
邱鎮軍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
蘇清泉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
劉建國 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
陳秀寳 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
99 |
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2024-03-12 |
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1130601 |
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1130601_00004 |
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1130601_00005 |
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立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
施政質詢
對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─ |
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委員長我請那個陳院長麻煩再請陳院長備選陳院長好早好早好早很危險齁一隻要把你他會記你台中的事件發生之後齁我們的討論剛好就延宕了大概兩個禮拜都在討論那個西部討論的事情是 |
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40.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
59.315 |
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結果事情你也知道我們台灣人說的,瞭解的勝利沒人做,抬頭的勝利有人做,有博弈嘛。所以剛發聲蘇丹鴻,當然你的態度是很清楚,我也知道你看事情很苛刻,不然整棟一些委員在這裡你都變成配合了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
66.553 |
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78.562 |
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你怎麼會給所有台灣人的感覺,該行檢驗到的時候應該給當事人有15天的緩衝期。在那個時候,驗出蘇丹洪的時候,你看看我們就多吃15天的蘇丹洪。沒有沒有,這回事不太好。這回事就是這樣,因為什麼?冬季時你在這裡做一些我表的時候,做生意 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
95.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
113.063 |
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在臨檢出行政院後就說這個單位要聘人申訴申訴15天啊。你這樣講完全不對,這婚姻管政府,婚姻管政府查出來以後馬上就有通報,馬上就叫他下架,不能混為一談。我問你,臨檢出行政院是不是應該要即時公佈,你也說是嘛。 |
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122.891 |
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124.822 |
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吼,你那時候是這樣給我印的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
126.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
135.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
你不會記住嗎?我問你那時候你覺得不會記住?我問你臨檢出來賀多邦以前所提出是臨檢出但是地方檢驗機關若是檢到是不是要即時公佈?你跟我說是啊若是正確的時候是我告訴你所有的那些你不會記住的,好來 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
154.554 |
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171.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
但是你們最後的調查報告出來,也沒有說時間是否受到污染嗎?這樣他為什麼不進行?但是,那個報告... 那個報告裡面...不是啦,你們當機時是正在...我現在不是要跟你說過去的事情啦,那已經是大熱嘛,你現在看到這個蘇丹洪的東西這麼嚴重,你就知道我請教你,因為我要你去調查過去有這個案例有沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
182.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
191.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
海關檢到要求退關的時候,若沒有退關,有考決,變贏一個,變更名稱：有退關： |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
198.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
208.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
你傾斷全部都不提案?這個蘇丹紅這件事齁,若是有這個辣椒粉我怕喝到蘇丹紅,你就要退關。退關... 你的補充說什麼?你的補充說,還會知道你們大家都很愛吃香的,我感覺你的補充因這個事情,多的東西都親眼分開呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
221.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
222.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我現在要請教你 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
244.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
246.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
新聞證的事你知道吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
246.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
249.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我知道你說電子身份證嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
249.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
266.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
是的,好,要講我錢證。 今天還是很嚴重啦。 那個林博電給我看,請教理一下,來。 麻煩你。 一定有一些細節我不知道了解不了解。 有啦,這我知道有這個... 現在我們大家聽到的,理解到就是說我們要賠償2.8億啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
271 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
281.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
您對國防發布的不是賠償,是降低損失。但是我請教,我本席所接觸到的不是2.8億。您還有付一條4月3日給人家。你可不可以知道?委員你說4月3日是到期報告。所以我請教你,沒錯嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
299.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
323.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
二、二點八億有沒有包括那些機器?機器是現在已經存在的。機器存在?沒有啦,機器存在開多少錢?你給我說一下。機器存在因為它是已經支付出去,已經是架構機器。你把副機器的錢連外國,本來我們在說的全部十億多的就是包括機器喔。 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
324.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
346.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
你現在說我們只降到2.8億,讓我們感覺好像你很會做事啊,只有2.8億就解決了啊。 機器是資產啊。 資產,來我告訴你,你的機器等到我們要重新發行數位身份證的時候,這機器可不可以用錢? |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
347.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
355.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這些機器從它進口之後都全部都是依照我們相關的規定在做運作。它不使用之後其實就是封存。 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
375.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
383.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
所以,我們討論的時候,全部會有10億多嘛。 啊,你現在要跟我們說,我們不會認出來,我們不會出來說,只有2.8億。 你讓所有的台灣人,假設說10億多,你喬到2.8億,很高,很高,可以出國比賽。 不是這樣。 如果用這種手法,你要公開跟台灣人說嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
399.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
428.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這條我們就是要整個那機器來我請教你我講一個好嗎機器好來好委員是這樣如果我們要用數位ID的時候我們就要有那個機器嘛要有那個卡片的材料當然現在因為這個數位數位身份證還沒有要實施但是這個機器含這個材料還可以用在其他的用具你就這樣就對了嘛對他還有其他使用用具你說最可恨的嘛是啊我告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
430.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
436.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這台機器要怎麼保用?你告訴我,要放在哪裡?這台機器現在是在...放在哪裡?這台機器要開機嗎?不然會破機嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
453.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
456.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
因為當時所有的團體各界都說有各自問題 這不是你的國籍我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
484.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
498.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
隱私問題啦,隱私問題。 有這個問題拿走下去,拿走下去。 180年的時候就決定暫緩啦,對啦。 我說的,一八十年後你們好朋友,老兄弟啊,現在的老總統啊,阿人怕翻車嘛,都遇到事情要面對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
509.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
518.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這就叫做標準的吃緊都破碗,你有感覺嗎?沒有啦,當初在那個溝通的規定中間...不管嘛,溝通的規定現在出來,要了解事情,不對嗎?他還要審視4月3日? |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
525.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
527.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
是不是負了4.3億啦? |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
527.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
533.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
各位委員報告一下喔,因為這個政策其實是一個持續性,從民國101年的時候開始回報。沒有,剛剛委員已經講過了,因為這個機器是採購,採購進來的。 採購多少錢嘛?你怎麼這樣咧?為什麼不能講咧? |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
533.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
533.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
有保密條款嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
533.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
535.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
沒有,委員剛剛已經講過了啊。 沒有,我講的對不對啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
554.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
557.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我講四月三千萬,副理要買機器對不對啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
559.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
585.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這個數字我在跟委員確認,不過這個數字應該,我們有支付這個買機器的一個方向。我跟國人報告,你要了解,你要去查嘛。這個本來就有啊,剛剛都跟委員說明了。當時在協議的時候就是包括買機器、維修、租金還有他的作業費,所以大約10億多。但你們現在讓我們理解就是全部只有2億8。 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
587.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
610.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
只有2億8千,所以我們已經降低損失,不要這樣啦!不然就太多問題嘛!這也不是你們來的過程嘛!不是啦,這期期還可以贏嘛!你來的時候就買了嘛!對不對?對,我到任的時候當然就已經採購完。那為什麼不能把真相讓國人理解嘛?不過,委員這個之前都已經公開說明過了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
616.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
626.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我問臺灣人看回一個知識,現在你了解到的,臺灣人聽到是沒感覺。 這件事我們要賠償兩億八給廠商,但我們也已經付給他四億多機器的費用。 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
637.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
648.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這機器要維修、要低度運轉,那幾年後不知道我們要做這個身份證,這機器等於脫鉤了,那你現在說我還讓它再運轉,所以沒有虧損,機器買來備用! |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
656.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
658.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我給你保證三年來不會做啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
685.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
702.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
三年後就對了,這要繼續做什麼?不要說太多後面的人。 院長,整個決策過程,為了數位身份證這件事情,你能夠代表政府跟臺灣人民合謀一場嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
702.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
707.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這個很難。 我說的所謂吃筋都破碗,不好意思就好了啦,不然這個不好意思你覺得需要嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
709.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
730.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這件事當初在觀點時,恰恰是在溝通時,有大家不同意見。 所以說政府目前是暫緩實施,未來溝通後看能不能持續溝通以後看結果是怎麼樣。 到目前為止確實讓大家等了好久,但是還是沒有實施。 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
731.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
757.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
你會覺得不好意思嗎?我是覺得說政府當然這點要跟民眾來表達說,其實在溝通的過程當中沒那麼順利。不然是你一句不好意思才不好意思說出來,我們台灣人你看,這沒什麼意義,我一年這沒什麼意義,頭上人的刮青,你今天一個不好意思就對了,是代表你的管道,我是登記對你這麼謙遜的人。 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
760.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
761.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
包括內政部、內部啦。我們現在就是說所有機器 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
790.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
810.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
假如最後我們要的方案為什麼會為什麼會因為各自的問題不敢做下去?難道這些機器沒有問題嗎?機器是沒有問題啊。你不要想說全部都兩體的問題而已喔。如果你軟體改到了很周全我告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
812.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
823.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這幾期要再調整,所以我不是在騙你,我是說這件事要讓國人理解不是只有2.8億,已經將近8億多了。沒關係,來進步過這件事,我台南市最近天坑的問題, |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
837.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
838.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
當然有一些公共工程。那麼這一種預防性的監測來進步進展也有經歷過。 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
855.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
868.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
是不是要針對國土署來說,你地下是開挖深度超過多少的東西,你要委外公正單位及技術專業單位,來做一個監測。當然身份會提高一些,但是安全的無雙選擇。 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
874.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
876.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
謝謝委員,因為從那個包括台北市的這個雞胎的這個發生這個事情之後其實一直在討論這個課題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
896.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
915.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那當然我們相關開挖的規範都有阿你提到說第三方的一個監測我們現在有必要嗎?我們現在正在審慎平衡這一個規範沒有,有沒有必要?我想從安全的...他就說...他就說我們從情社這必要的嘛對啦,但是這個技術...這個在成本...成本減價不會很多啦沒有啦,你就問說這個技術上可以提前超前監測嗎?這就要研議嗎?可以! |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
938.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
945.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
謝謝謝委員龍介,能不能因為時間已到,我們請行政院給您書面質詢答覆好不好?謝謝陳委員長備詢,也謝謝謝龍介委員質詢。 |