| IVOD_ID |
149574 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149574 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-20-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-07T11:54:55+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-07T12:03:23+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:08:28 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe46d9b56a9c831c48f84c29b94b9165f0f8ba9b0039caa7a6d6f935e5ba50cb3a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:54:55 - 12:03:23 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。
【3月4日及7日二天一次會】） |
| gazette.lineno |
861 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
黃委員國昌：（11時54分）謝謝主席，麻煩請財政部部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請莊部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
黃委員國昌：請第一銀行邱月琴董事長。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
主席：請邱董事長。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
黃委員國昌：請合作金庫林衍茂董事長。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
主席：有請林董。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
莊部長翠雲：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
黃委員國昌：三位好，因為時間關係，就不一一問候。2018年開始追慶富獵雷艦弊案的時候，發現非常多公股行庫，基本上沒有什麼金融專業，只要抱對掌權者的大腿，就可以當董事長。因為慶富獵雷艦弊案而負責下臺的廖燦昌，蘇貞昌重新任用他的時候，跟大家說他這麼做是用人唯才，我那時候就痛批這種人事任用，結果蘇貞昌口中用人唯才的廖燦昌，後來繼續爆發的潤寅詐貸案、遠航詐貸案，統統都有他的份，從合庫的董事長，幹到一銀的董事長，全部都有他的份，部長不熟沒有關係，我直接貼給你看，兩個案子以特殊背信罪全部被起訴了。我的問題很簡單，第一個問題，請問現在合庫的損失、一銀的損失，你們有沒有向廖燦昌求償？請回答。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
莊部長翠雲：請合庫跟一銀來說明可以嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
黃委員國昌：當然啊，所以我才請兩位董事長上來，不要浪費時間啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
邱董事長月琴：目前沒有。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
黃委員國昌：為什麼沒有？可以不求償嗎？放水打假球喔！為什麼可以不求償，說個道理給大家聽！因為是老長官，所以官官相護？官股的錢，不是你們的錢，所以不跟他求償，可以這樣嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
林董事長衍茂：報告委員，我們是刑事案件有附帶民事的求償…… |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
黃委員國昌：求償多少錢？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
林董事長衍茂：沒有限定的金額。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
黃委員國昌：怎麼可能沒有限定的金額？你們提民事訴訟要求償，沒有限定的金額？我先問你，你們損失多少錢？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
林董事長衍茂：跟委員報告是15億。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
黃委員國昌：一銀損失多少錢？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
邱董事長月琴：慶富案的部分大概是57億。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
黃委員國昌：15億的有求償，57億的沒有求償？請你講清楚，損失15億的求償了多少錢？不好意思，董事長我在問你問題，損失15億的求償多少錢？您上台來，不是在上面打坐，我問你的問題要請你回答！沒關係，現在問題點出來了，請兩家銀行的董事長回去準備書面資料，回答兩個問題，第一個，有沒有求償？如果沒有求償，理由是什麼？第二個，有沒有進行假扣押？有沒有進行財產的保全？因為不知道官司打多久，等到判決確定後，全部脫產得乾乾淨淨的，拿債權憑證回家要幹嘛？兩位董事長可以承諾可以做到這兩件事情嗎？應該可以吧？沒有這麼複雜吧？是不是可以請兩位董事長回答？ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
主席：請兩位董事長用麥克風回答。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
林董事長衍茂：這個我們會再跟委員回報。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
黃委員國昌：另外一位董事長？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
邱董事長月琴：我們目前是對借戶在求償之中；對於董事長的…… |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
黃委員國昌：對借戶在求償？你的借戶是誰啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
邱董事長月琴：我們的借戶就是慶富跟這個…… |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
黃委員國昌：求償得到嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
邱董事長月琴：目前還在執行中。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
黃委員國昌：你執行了多少錢？ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
邱董事長月琴：目前執行中的部分，大概收回了十來億。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
黃委員國昌：57億？ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
邱董事長月琴：收回的部分有22億。 |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
黃委員國昌：所以你現在到底收回多少錢？還有三十幾億沒有追嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
邱董事長月琴：剩57億…… |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
黃委員國昌：對嘛！你還有57億沒有追嘛！可以這樣放水喔？來請部長…… |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
莊部長翠雲：是，委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
黃委員國昌：民進黨在野的時候，都說要修改財政收支劃分法，蘇貞昌2012年批判得很嚴重，那個時候要求修財劃法，還說：看到這些縣市編不出預算，嗷嗷待哺，米缸空空的，心裡很難過！我不曉得現在的行政院院長，會不會體會到地方政府的心情？然後，賴清德2018年當行政院長的時候，也承諾要修財劃法，到了現在2024年持續跳票，持續跳票！民進黨執政了以後，享受到錢跟權一把抓的滋味，財劃法不斷地暫緩，沒有下文。部長你一直說要凝聚各縣市的共識，凝聚社會的共識。我先問兩個基本的問題，第一個垂直分配不均的問題，統籌分配款規模太低，不管是民進黨執政，國民黨執政；民進黨在野，國民黨在野，所有的學者專家點出來的問題都一樣。我先不跟你扯水平分配的問題，要不然你又推給地方政府，說什麼沒有共識啦，沒有辦法修啦。從去年5月到現在，你的說詞都一模一樣，從來沒改變過，我去查過了，所以我繼續再聽你說要等社會共識或各縣市的共識，沒有意義啦！我們先處理垂直分配不均的問題，依照目前財政部規劃的版本，就擴大統籌分配款的規模，目前的規劃方案是什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，所謂的垂直分配，擴大統籌分配稅款的規模，這確實是我們在研議過程當中的一個方向。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
黃委員國昌：目前研議的結果是什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
莊部長翠雲：這個部分都需要試算…… |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
黃委員國昌：試算出來了沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
莊部長翠雲：中央跟地方這幾年的財政變化也很大…… |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
黃委員國昌：所以試算出來了沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
莊部長翠雲：目前還沒有。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
黃委員國昌：你從什麼時候開始試算？ |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
莊部長翠雲：這個部分因為一直在變動，一直在變動當中，我們也持續地在做試算…… |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
黃委員國昌：不會啊！你看我沒有你們的 data，我把2021年、2022年、2023年的，全部都試算出來啦！講空話，說地方政府沒共識！連垂直分配不均的問題，問你試算出來了沒有，都還沒有開始試算！ |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，持續都在做試算的工作…… |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
黃委員國昌：持續都在做試算？好，沒關係…… |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
莊部長翠雲：它會變動…… |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
黃委員國昌：不要說空話，今天會議結束後，把你們到此時此刻試算的結果給我，可以嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
莊部長翠雲：這個部分，我們要看一下資料的情況。 |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
黃委員國昌：你剛剛不是說持續地在試算嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
莊部長翠雲：對啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
黃委員國昌：那麼手上應該有數字啦，會後提供給我，可不可以？ |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分，我們還是需要審慎地研議。 |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
黃委員國昌：我請你給我試算的結果，你要研議什麼？研議這個試算的結果正不正確，回去重新打計算機嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
莊部長翠雲：不會啦，我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
黃委員國昌：所以，會後把試算的結果給我可以嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
莊部長翠雲：我們看一下內容…… |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
主席：我想你給委員一個時間會比較好。 |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
黃委員國昌：一個月可以嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
莊部長翠雲：一個月我們給。 |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
莊部長翠雲：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
主席：謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[65][1] |
接著請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[65][2] |
接著請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員也不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[65][3] |
接著請鄭天財委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
378 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-20-2 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
郭國文 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
林德福 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
吳秉叡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
李彥秀 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
王世堅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
賴惠員 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
顏寬恒 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
李坤城 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
羅廷瑋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
陳培瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
羅明才 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
陳玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
323 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-03-07 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1130701 |
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1130701_00007 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公股代
表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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謝謝主席是不是麻煩有請財政部的部長請莊部長第一銀行董事長邱有請邱董事長合作金庫董事長林衍茂林董事長三位有請林董委員好時間暫停 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
37.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
40.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
議員會議員會議員會議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
44.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
69.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
三位好時間的關係不一一問候2018年開始在追慶富烈爐建壁案的時候發現非常多公股行庫的基本上沒有什麼金融專業當董事長只要抱對掌權者的大腿就可以當董事長了那個時候因為慶富烈爐建壁案下台的我們現在的六餐艙 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
71.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
89.832 |
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那個時候負責下台蘇貞昌重新任用他的時候跟大家說阿他這個叫做用人為財阿我那時候痛批阿這種人事任用我痛批這種人事任用結果蘇貞昌口中用人為財的廖燦昌後來繼續爆發了什麼綠眼詐盜案 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
96.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
97.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
請合戶跟議員來說明可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
126.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
139.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
當然啊 所以我才請兩位董事長上來 不要浪費時間啊目前沒有為什麼沒有 可以不求償喔放手打假球喔為什麼可以不求償 說個道理跟大家講因為是老長官 官官相護 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
154.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
170.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我們是刑事案件有刑事案件附帶民事的求償求償多少錢沒有限定的金額怎麼可能沒有限定的金額你要提民事訴訟要求償沒有限定的金額那我先問你啊你們主持多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
172.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
176.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
跟國營報告是15億15億來議員損失多少錢?請勿按請勿按的部分代表是57億57億15億的有球場57億的沒有球場 來來來損失15億的講清楚球場多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
198.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
207.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
欸不好意思董事長我在問你問題欸損失15億的球場多少錢那個您上來不是在上面打坐我請問你問題要請你回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
211.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
238.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
沒關係啦!我現在問題點出來了齁請兩家銀行的董事長回去準備書面資料回答兩個問題第一個有沒有球場?如果沒有球場理由是什麼?第二個有沒有進行假扣押?有沒有進行財產的保全?要不然官司打多久?等到判決確定了以後全部脫廠脫得乾乾淨淨的拿債權憑證回家要幹嘛?這兩件事情兩位董事長可以承諾可以做到嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
240.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
252.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
應該可以吧沒有這麼複雜吧是不是可以請兩位董事長回答請兩位董事長用麥克風回答這個我們會再跟委員回報另外一位董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
253.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
282.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我想我們目前是對借戶在球場之中那對於董事長借戶在球場?你的借戶是誰啊?我們的借戶就是慶富跟這個球場的大嗎?目前還在執行中那對嘛!你執行的多少錢?目前執行中的部分大概十來億啦收回五十七億!快五十七億!收回的部分有二十二億 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
283.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
292.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
所以現在到底多少錢?還有30幾億沒有追?對嘛!你還有5、7億沒有追嘛!可以這樣放水喔?來請部長是委員你倆在野的時候都說要修財政收支劃分法蘇貞昌說2012年批判得很嚴重喔說 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
308.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
336.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那個時候要求要修財化法看到這些縣市編不出預算嗷嗷待哺米缸空空的心裡很難過我不曉得現在的行政院院長會不會體會到地方政府現在的心情然後在新德2018年當行政院院長的時候他也承諾要修財化法到現在2024年持續跳票持續跳票 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
337.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
360.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
民進黨執政了以後享受到了錢跟錢一把抓的滋味財化法不斷的上懷沒有下文部長一直說你要凝聚各縣市的共識我先問兩個基本的問題第一個垂直分配不均的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
361.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
386.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
統籌分配款規模太低不管是民進黨執政、國民黨執政、民進黨在野、國民黨在野所有的學者專家大家點出來的問題都一樣針對目前民進黨政府針對垂直分配不均的問題因為我先不跟你扯水平分配的問題要不然你又推給地方政府沒有共識啦沒有辦法修啦你去年五月的縮詞到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
387.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
407.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
一模一樣從來沒改變過我去查過了所以我繼續在聽你說要等社會共識或各界事業共識沒有意義啦我們先處理隨時分配不均的問題依在目前財政部規劃的版本就擴大統籌分配款的規模目前的規劃方案是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
408.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
427.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
跟委員報告啊怎麼樣就是所謂的垂直分配擴大統籌分配稅款的規模這個確實是我們在在研議過程當中的一個方向目前研議的結果是什麼那這個部分都需要試算都需要試算試算出來了沒有中央跟地方這幾年的財政變化也很大所以試算出來了沒有目前沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
428.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
441.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
你從什麼時候開始試算?這個部分因為一直在變動一直在變動大部分不會啊你看我沒有你們的data欸我2021年、2022年、2023年的我全部都試算出來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
442.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
464.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
講空話!地方政府沒共識!連隨時分配不均的問題問你試算出來了沒有?還沒有開始試算欸!呃,各位報告,持續的都在做試算的工作。持續都在做事,啊沒關係!不要再開話!今天或後以後,把你們到目前此時此刻試算的結果給我可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
466.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
486.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這個部分我們要看一下資料的一個...剛剛你不是說持續的在試算嗎?那手上應該有數字啦!會後提供給我可不可以?我想這個部分我們還是需要審慎的研議,對請你給我試算的結果你要研議什麼?研議這個試算的結果這麼正確回去重新打計算機嗎?不會的,我們...那所以會後把試算的結果給我可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
487.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
493.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
市長給個時間給個時間給個時間一個月可以嗎一個月我們給好謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢接著我們請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在所以我們請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員也不在接著我們請鄭天才委員質詢 |