| IVOD_ID |
149323 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149323 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-1-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期第3次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第1會期第3次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-05T16:24:05+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-05T16:54:43+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:30:38 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d6f3e02e0bf46d5e6dcae243d809b70d886681d5001d2e43f8ba9b0039caa7a60a11d827798f0feb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
羅智強 |
| 委員發言時間 |
16:24:05 - 16:54:43 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-05T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第1會期第3次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。
二、3月1日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。
三、3月5日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。） |
| gazette.lineno |
504 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
羅委員智強：（16時24分）主席，有請院長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：再請陳院長備詢。 |
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陳院長建仁：羅委員午安。 |
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羅委員智強：院長好。民主國家的立法權包括聽證及調查權，釋字第585號明確指出，立法院為有效行使憲法所賦予之立法職權，本其固有之權能自得享有一定之調查權。立法院於院會決議後，可要求調查事項相關之人民或政府人員，陳述證言或表示意見，對於違反協助調查義務者科予處罰。失去調查權和聽證權的立法院就像缺了牙的老虎，根本沒有辦法有效監督，立法院應該儘速完成相關修法。請問院長，我的這一段話你同不同意？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
陳院長建仁：我看調查權的這個部分，實際上除立法院以外，監察院也有調查權…… |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
羅委員智強：我只問您，這一段話你覺得同不同意？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
陳院長建仁：本來在國會殿堂裡面，我們就有接受立委質詢的情況…… |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
羅委員智強：很簡單的問題，認不認同？如果違反了協助調查的義務，科予處罰，你認不認同？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
陳院長建仁：這個部分我個人是覺得在調查的過程當中，什麼叫作違反…… |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
羅委員智強：院長，你有憲政高度，答這個話支支吾吾的，也不太像你。我再問你一次…… |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
陳院長建仁：我沒有支支吾吾，我只覺得在立法院應該彼此尊重。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
羅委員智強：對於違反聽證調查義務者科予處罰，你認不認同？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
陳院長建仁：我覺得應該彼此尊重。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
羅委員智強：認不認同？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
陳院長建仁：在這裡我個人是覺得並不認同啦。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
羅委員智強：感謝你嚴重的打臉了陳其邁，這是2012年12月6號，陳其邁、鄭麗君立委們召開健全議事運作，賦予國會聽證調查權記者會當中的主張，我原文照念，恭喜你鄭重打臉了2012年的陳其邁，陳其邁明確要求建立國會聽證調查制度，並對違反者科予處罰。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][1] |
我再想請教院長下一句話，我已經在草擬國會聽證調查的法案，準備要修正立法院職權行使法，底下是我的修法理由跟修法方向，想請教院長是否認同。立院得設置調查委員會或專案小組，調閱文件及要求有關機關人員提供證言、資料。如果立法院對調閱文件之存在或真實性有合理重大懷疑，經院會決議，得要求政府機關提供原件。立法院行使調查權時，行政機關如果沒有法律依據、行政特權或正當理由，拒絕列席、提供證言或虛偽陳述時，可函請司法機關處罰、追訴。並制定藐視國會罪，官員公然說謊得處罰之。你覺得我的立法理由寫得好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
陳院長建仁：不太好。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
羅委員智強：不太好啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
陳院長建仁：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
羅委員智強：恭喜你打臉了柯建銘，這個提案是民進黨立法院黨團柯建銘總召等人，在2016年4月提出的修法版本和文字內容，而藐視國會罪的部分也是蔡同榮先生一貫的主張。在民進黨的版本裡面，他所修正的立法院職權行使法第七十四條之二，針對無法律依據、行政特權或正當理由而拒絕、拖延、隱匿不提供文件、資料或物件，或者是做虛偽陳述等等的行為，要科以新臺幣一萬元以上三十萬元以下罰鍰，並得按次連續處罰。可不可以請院長告訴我，為什麼你要打臉陳其邁？為什麼你又要打臉柯建銘呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
陳院長建仁：我覺得時空有改變，很重要的…… |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
羅委員智強：時空再度改變，就是你們屁股的位置不一樣，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
陳院長建仁：所以我們很重要的，就是需要審慎研議啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
羅委員智強：換了位置就換了腦袋。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
陳院長建仁：委員，讓我講完。我們需要審慎研議來聽取各方的意見，剛才我跟你說的是我個人的看法，那很重要的是…… |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
羅委員智強：院長，你今天備詢是以什麼身分在這邊備詢的？你是以行政院院長的身分在這裡備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
陳院長建仁：剛才你是問我個人的意見…… |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
羅委員智強：沒有關係。院長，我告訴你，你在這邊就充分展現了民進黨的反覆，身為民進黨的閣員，你公然打臉民進黨立法院黨團提出來的國會改革版本，連陳其邁高雄市長的面子你也不給，你就打臉他。可是我跟院長講，你完全正確，你知道為什麼？因為民進黨就是一個換了屁股就換了腦袋的政黨啊！ |
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陳院長建仁：這個我不同意，但是…… |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
羅委員智強：沒關係，你不同意。但是你剛答詢就證明了這件事情…… |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
陳院長建仁：我講時空會有改變…… |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
羅委員智強：2016年4月的民進黨版本，它贊不贊成國會聽證調查？白紙黑字喔！還是你要像上次一樣要去查資料，認為我講的是不對的？我講的是有憑有據喔！可是今天民進黨行政院長公然反對國會聽證調查，也反對對於違反國會聽證調查義務要科以罰鍰，這些都是民進黨2016年的主張，也是2012年陳其邁的主張啊！甚至蔡同榮一輩子要爭取的國會聽證調查，他的心願、遺願，就被你三言兩句輕輕地就把它抹煞了，可是為什麼我說你是正確的？你知道柯建銘總召現在講到國會聽證調查，他怎麼說你知道嗎？他說這叫毀憲亂政，你認同嗎？建立國會聽證調查制度叫毀憲亂政嗎？ |
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陳院長建仁：我想國會聽證調查目前在這個五權分立的…… |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
羅委員智強：你贊不贊成嘛？ |
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陳院長建仁：立法院不應該過度…… |
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羅委員智強：院長，我再給你一個修正的機會，你贊不贊成民進黨2016年4月版本提出來要建立國會聽證調查制度，贊不贊成？ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
陳院長建仁：我不贊成啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
羅委員智強：你不贊成？ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
陳院長建仁：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
羅委員智強：一路走來始終如一啦！ |
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陳院長建仁：但是很重要的就是說五權分立的這個情況…… |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
羅委員智強：我要做一個很簡單的結論，你講五權分立，請問你憲法大法官會議釋字第585號怎麼說？你告訴我怎麼說？ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
陳院長建仁：我沒有辦法記起來。 |
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羅委員智強：它直接說立法院就有調查權啊！這大法官釋字第585號寫的，而且如果對於違反聽證調查義務，它直接寫得以科處罰鍰啊！所以這是合憲的，何來毀憲亂政之說呢？我這邊做一個很簡單的結論啦！院長，我告訴你我不怪你，因為民進黨的柯建銘總召就自己在自己打臉嘛！打臉打到你最近可能都看他的說法，你可能就被他誤導了，回去讀讀憲法、讀讀民進黨2016年的版本比較實際。我在這邊跟院長報告，羅智強在這邊公開宣布，我今天百分之百站在2016年民進黨這邊，我會提一個跟民進黨2016年4月完全百分之百一字不差的國會聽證調查制度的修法法案，希望院長可以給2016年的民進黨一點鼓勵，可不可以？請院長回答，這個很簡單，可不可以？如果…… |
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陳院長建仁：我剛才已經講過這種事情需要討論…… |
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羅委員智強：沒有關係，我跟院長講，我就是要眼睜睜、瞪大眼睛看看民進黨去反對自己2016年4月提出來的國會聽證調查法案，我就要看看民進黨的屁股又長到腦袋上面，要不要繼續地打臉自己。院長，我想請教你下一個問題，NCC是採委員會制對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
陳院長建仁：是。 |
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羅委員智強：所以是幾個委員？ |
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陳院長建仁：7個。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
羅委員智強：要經院長提名、立法院同意嘛！ |
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陳院長建仁：對。 |
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羅委員智強：7月會有4位委員任期屆滿，按照法律請問幾月底要完成提名？ |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
陳院長建仁：4月底。 |
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羅委員智強：4月底，所以沒有意外是你來提名嘛！對不對？ |
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陳院長建仁：是。 |
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羅委員智強：那我想請問賴清德總統當選了有沒有來跟你溝通委員的人選？ |
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陳院長建仁：目前還沒。 |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
羅委員智強：沒有是不是？好，我想請教你，你已經多次在答詢當中說你不會留任行政院長嘛！對不對？ |
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陳院長建仁：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
羅委員智強：所以換言之，你在4月底提名了這些人之後，520以後這些委員就是新政府了嘛！對不對？那你不覺得你看守政府提名委員，我問你，你有沒有要跟新政府溝通一下？ |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
陳院長建仁：當然要啊！當然要，但是到現在為止還沒嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
羅委員智強：好，賴清德說要提名跨黨派人士擔任NCC委員，考量到立院有同意權，你會不會尊重立院的多數意見，事先做溝通，還是你就直接提名了，丟到立法院來投票？ |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
陳院長建仁：我想有各式各樣的溝通，而且各式各樣的徵詢…… |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
羅委員智強：你會溝通徵詢嘛！不會就自己直接提名人選就丟到立法院來投票了嘛！謝謝院長，我在這裡肯定你，跟在目前國會多數的在野黨好好溝通。我想問你，NCC最主要組織任務是落實保障言論自由、維護媒體自主嘛！對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
陳院長建仁：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
羅委員智強：可是過去8年民進黨執政也掌握了NCC的提名運作，外界有很多的批評，認為NCC喪失了獨立機關該有的獨立自主性，當然我相信你不認同啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
陳院長建仁：對，我是不認同。 |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
羅委員智強：可是我要問的，我們應不應該要有一個法律，明確保障報社、電視、廣播事業的獨立自主，不要受政府的侵害啊？ |
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陳院長建仁：要啊！需要。 |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
羅委員智強：要，是不是啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
陳院長建仁：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
羅委員智強：請問我們現在NCC關掉哪個新聞臺？ |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
陳院長建仁：但是它有它執法的依據，而且它是一個獨立機構，所以獨立機構有…… |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
羅委員智強：我直接告訴你，我剛講的話很簡單，我講的話就是民進黨黨綱裡寫的，我並沒有看到你們真的有去尊重民進黨黨綱裡面保護新聞自由的精神。 |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
陳院長建仁：我們有保護…… |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
羅委員智強：獨立自主的精神在我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
陳院長建仁：我們有保護新聞自由。 |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
羅委員智強：NCC委員、主委的治理之下，你看到的是我們的新聞被箝制。 |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
陳院長建仁：我們沒有箝制新聞…… |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
羅委員智強：沒關係，我請教你下一個問題。作為總統或執政者，無論電視臺或節目的好壞，就算很討厭某電視臺，要關掉電視臺或節目都不該是由政府去關，而是要由閱聽人也就是觀眾，透過市場機制來決定，請問院長認同這句話嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[81][0] |
陳院長建仁：我想NCC之所以成立，一定有NCC…… |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
羅委員智強：不該由政府去關新聞臺，你認同這句話嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[83][0] |
陳院長建仁：一定有NCC設立的道理。 |
| gazette.blocks[84][0] |
羅委員智強：院長，這句話只有認不認同，不該由政府去關新聞臺，你認不認同？ |
| gazette.blocks[85][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，我們依法律，有按照制度。 |
| gazette.blocks[86][0] |
陳院長建仁：主委，我沒有問你。 |
| gazette.blocks[87][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：我是跟委員說明一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[88][0] |
羅委員智強：我沒有問你喔！我問的是院長喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
陳院長建仁：任何如果是需要…… |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
羅委員智強：第4次問你，新聞臺跟節目不該是由政府去關，這句話你認不認同？ |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
陳院長建仁：我想我們要依法來處理，而依法處理的時候…… |
| gazette.blocks[93][0] |
羅委員智強：法律不對要不要改？ |
| gazette.blocks[94][0] |
陳院長建仁：通傳會…… |
| gazette.blocks[95][0] |
羅委員智強：法律今天授權NCC可以關新聞臺…… |
| gazette.blocks[96][0] |
陳院長建仁：通傳會…… |
| gazette.blocks[97][0] |
羅委員智強：我跟你挑戰的就是法律的正當性。 |
| gazette.blocks[98][0] |
陳院長建仁：換照是NCC來審查嘛，所以要落實…… |
| gazette.blocks[99][0] |
羅委員智強：我再問你一次，我就說這法律不對要修啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[100][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，法律是立法院…… |
| gazette.blocks[101][0] |
羅委員智強：我要問院長，抱歉！你沒什麼公信力，我不想要問你。 |
| gazette.blocks[102][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：這個是我的業務。 |
| gazette.blocks[103][0] |
羅委員智強：我要問院長，新聞臺跟節目不該是由政府去關，這句話你認不認同？第6次問你，認不認同？ |
| gazette.blocks[104][0] |
陳院長建仁：我是認同，但是…… |
| gazette.blocks[105][0] |
羅委員智強：謝謝你認同，請問你旁邊的那位關掉哪一個新聞臺？ |
| gazette.blocks[106][0] |
陳院長建仁：但是問題是它是發照…… |
| gazette.blocks[107][0] |
羅委員智強：你旁邊那位關掉哪一個新聞臺？ |
| gazette.blocks[108][0] |
陳院長建仁：這個不要…… |
| gazette.blocks[109][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：我們依法進行各種換照制度。 |
| gazette.blocks[110][0] |
陳院長建仁：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[111][0] |
羅委員智強：你們…… |
| gazette.blocks[112][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[113][0] |
羅委員智強：我講的是憲政當中新聞自由的價值。 |
| gazette.blocks[114][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：這個符合新聞自由…… |
| gazette.blocks[115][0] |
羅委員智強：今天我認為破壞了新聞自由的這個上位價值，法律就要修改，院長認不認同？ |
| gazette.blocks[116][0] |
陳院長建仁：我想新聞…… |
| gazette.blocks[117][0] |
羅委員智強：好，沒關係，院長，我倒退來再問你，請問現在的法律，你剛剛說你認同政府不可以關新聞臺，你剛剛講的嘛！你要收回啦？不會吧！ |
| gazette.blocks[118][0] |
陳院長建仁：沒有，現在就是…… |
| gazette.blocks[119][0] |
羅委員智強：你剛剛講的，再問你第二個問題…… |
| gazette.blocks[120][0] |
陳院長建仁：要有換照…… |
| gazette.blocks[121][0] |
羅委員智強：現在的法律違反了你的信念，你剛剛說你認同政府不可以關新聞臺，現在法律授權NCC這位新聞自由的屠夫去關新聞臺的時候…… |
| gazette.blocks[122][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：委員，我抗議！沒有什麼新聞自由的屠夫的問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[123][0] |
羅委員智強：沒關係，我跟你講…… |
| gazette.blocks[124][0] |
陳院長建仁：這個你…… |
| gazette.blocks[125][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：我表達抗議。 |
| gazette.blocks[126][0] |
羅委員智強：換過來我問你，我問你…… |
| gazette.blocks[127][0] |
陳院長建仁：你把NCC的功能做錯誤的解釋，不要在這裡…… |
| gazette.blocks[128][0] |
羅委員智強：我問你，你前面已經把你的前提講完了。 |
| gazette.blocks[129][0] |
陳院長建仁：不要在這裡…… |
| gazette.blocks[130][0] |
羅委員智強：來，院長，我再問你一次，現在的法律是不是讓NCC授權可以關新聞臺審查執照？ |
| gazette.blocks[131][0] |
陳院長建仁：它可以換照，它可以審查換照。 |
| gazette.blocks[132][0] |
羅委員智強：你不給它執照就關了啊！就是關新聞臺啊！你有沒有給中天執照？ |
| gazette.blocks[133][0] |
陳院長建仁：都是換照…… |
| gazette.blocks[134][0] |
羅委員智強：你給它執照它會關嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[135][0] |
陳院長建仁：換照制度本來就是法律規定的啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[136][0] |
羅委員智強：院長…… |
| gazette.blocks[137][0] |
陳院長建仁：那我們不是要依法行事嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[138][0] |
羅委員智強：我剛剛講的新聞，那我想請問你…… |
| gazette.blocks[139][0] |
陳院長建仁：我們不該依法行事？ |
| gazette.blocks[140][0] |
羅委員智強：國民黨威權時代的報禁，你總不認同嘛？你不會支持國民黨時代的報禁吧？那國民黨時代報禁也有法律依據啊！照這樣，報紙都是政府說關就關就可以，為什麼後來會解除報禁？就是法律不正義嘛！你認不認同？還是你要…… |
| gazette.blocks[141][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：委員，這個…… |
| gazette.blocks[142][0] |
羅委員智強：我沒問你，請你不要講話。我問院長。 |
| gazette.blocks[143][0] |
陳院長建仁：我想…… |
| gazette.blocks[144][0] |
羅委員智強：你贊不贊成解除報禁…… |
| gazette.blocks[145][0] |
陳院長建仁：我想…… |
| gazette.blocks[146][0] |
羅委員智強：取消政府關報社的權力？ |
| gazette.blocks[147][0] |
陳院長建仁：你不要把兩件事情給扯在一起，我們現在就講說NCC的功能，然後NCC…… |
| gazette.blocks[148][0] |
羅委員智強：院長，你剛剛前面自己講的話，你又要改口了嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[149][0] |
陳院長建仁：只要NCC…… |
| gazette.blocks[150][0] |
羅委員智強：你要改口了嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[151][0] |
陳院長建仁：我想在這個神聖的民主殿堂裡面…… |
| gazette.blocks[152][0] |
羅委員智強：我直接告訴你啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[153][0] |
陳院長建仁：不要去講這種…… |
| gazette.blocks[154][0] |
羅委員智強：神聖的民主殿堂，怯於捍衛新聞自由，連自己都知道政府不可以關新聞臺，你自己都知道政府不可以關新聞臺，結果你在旁邊說這叫依法辦理。 |
| gazette.blocks[155][0] |
陳院長建仁：對啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[156][0] |
羅委員智強：那照你的邏輯，威權政治的國民黨你也去加入算了！ |
| gazette.blocks[157][0] |
陳院長建仁：當時的法律不好的話，當然是不應該啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[158][0] |
羅委員智強：非常好！給你掌聲鼓勵，這個法律違反你的信念，不是羅智強的信念，是你陳建仁的信念，說政府不可以關新聞臺。我直接跟你講，你知道我剛剛講的這句話是誰講的嗎？也不是羅智強講的，是陳水扁總統講的，他非常反對關中天新聞台，他任內不會關新聞台，他不能理解現在你們徒子徒孫傷害新聞自由啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[158][1] |
我再請問您，NCC撤照中天已經三年多了，請問高等行政法院現在的判決結果怎麼樣？誰贏了？ |
| gazette.blocks[159][0] |
陳院長建仁：判決的結果還在訴訟當中。 |
| gazette.blocks[160][0] |
羅委員智強：我講高等行政法院。 |
| gazette.blocks[161][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：委員，可以我來回答嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[162][0] |
羅委員智強：你回答一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[163][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：目前高等法院我們是敗訴，我們要上訴最高行政法院。 |
| gazette.blocks[164][0] |
羅委員智強：謝謝你，我要這兩個字，你敗訴了。 |
| gazette.blocks[165][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：這個訴訟還在進行當中啊。 |
| gazette.blocks[166][0] |
羅委員智強：我要再問下一句話，這個訴訟進行下去，跟中天的官司，你總共花了多少律師費？ |
| gazette.blocks[167][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：律師費來講，我們有跟…… |
| gazette.blocks[168][0] |
羅委員智強：報紙說1,300萬是對的數字嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[169][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：不是。 |
| gazette.blocks[170][0] |
羅委員智強：那是多少數字？ |
| gazette.blocks[171][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：一個案子哪有可能1,300萬？ |
| gazette.blocks[172][0] |
羅委員智強：你打了26加1的案子耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[173][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：26加1，我們贏了14件，2件中天…… |
| gazette.blocks[174][0] |
羅委員智強：我要問你花了多少訴訟費，我告訴你，這要跟我依法論法，你知道行政機關…… |
| gazette.blocks[175][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：依法論法，1,300萬不是…… |
| gazette.blocks[176][0] |
羅委員智強：請你尊重我回答。 |
| gazette.blocks[177][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：是，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[178][0] |
羅委員智強：行政機關做的行政處分，在行政訴訟過程當中，敗訴是很顯見的。 |
| gazette.blocks[179][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：委員，基本上來講，要判決確定嘛。 |
| gazette.blocks[180][0] |
羅委員智強：你要輸掉10件官司，你跟我講你好棒棒。 |
| gazette.blocks[181][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：我們沒有輸掉10件官司哦！ |
| gazette.blocks[182][0] |
羅委員智強：沒有關係，至少百分之百你輸掉了。 |
| gazette.blocks[183][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：哪有百分之百輸掉？這個還在上訴當中。 |
| gazette.blocks[184][0] |
羅委員智強：今天撤照的這件事…… |
| gazette.blocks[185][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，這個還在上訴當中，怎麼會百分之百輸掉了？ |
| gazette.blocks[186][0] |
羅委員智強：以目前審級你就是百分之百的輸。 |
| gazette.blocks[187][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：那是只有高等行政法院…… |
| gazette.blocks[188][0] |
羅委員智強：上訴…… |
| gazette.blocks[189][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：上訴到最高行政法院，我們還在進行當中…… |
| gazette.blocks[190][0] |
羅委員智強：來、來、來，告訴你…… |
| gazette.blocks[191][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：委員，你也是學法律的，判決確定才是嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[192][0] |
羅委員智強：好，沒有關係，你當然可以上訴啊。 |
| gazette.blocks[193][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：當然啊！所以可以權利救濟啊。 |
| gazette.blocks[194][0] |
羅委員智強：你還在上訴中啊，沒有關係啊。我想請問您，為什麼高等法院判你們輸？ |
| gazette.blocks[195][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：高等法院並沒有完全查清楚，所以我們上訴。 |
| gazette.blocks[196][0] |
羅委員智強：哎呀！好了不起啊！原來是高等法院的錯啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[197][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：當然，所以我們要上訴啊。 |
| gazette.blocks[198][0] |
羅委員智強：陳水扁也錯了，高等法院也錯了…… |
| gazette.blocks[199][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，法院判決我們認為沒有查清楚…… |
| gazette.blocks[200][0] |
羅委員智強：陳其邁也錯了，柯建銘也錯了。 |
| gazette.blocks[201][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：委員，法院是法院，政治是政治，不要把兩件事情扯在一起。 |
| gazette.blocks[202][0] |
羅委員智強：今天真的是發現只有你陳耀祥是對的，只有你陳耀祥是對的。 |
| gazette.blocks[203][0] |
陳主任委員耀祥：我沒有說只有我是對的，這可受公評。 |
| gazette.blocks[204][0] |
羅委員智強：我再問一件事情，院長，你知道嗎？不用你回答，我問院長，就算今天終審NCC敗訴，你知道結果中天可不可以到52臺復臺？我告訴你，也沒辦法，因為你旁邊那位會再撤銷它一次，無限循環。這就是為什麼今天我要拜託院長，你發揮你的學者良知，你回到你的初心，你最初說的那句話政府不可以關新聞臺，我真的希望你能夠記住這句話，因為是在你的良知發光的那一刻講出的這句話，你被旁邊那個人影響啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[205][0] |
陳院長建仁：你這樣講我不同意。 |
| gazette.blocks[206][0] |
羅委員智強：你被旁邊那個人影響啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[207][0] |
陳院長建仁：我想很重要的，你剛才強調的…… |
| gazette.blocks[208][0] |
羅委員智強：我告訴你，我的主張很簡單，就是要修法節制NCC這種濫用政府職權傷害新聞自由的事情，你認不認同？你贊不贊成修法？ |
| gazette.blocks[209][0] |
陳院長建仁：我想NCC有它成立的必要。 |
| gazette.blocks[210][0] |
羅委員智強：你贊不贊成修法約束政府濫權關新聞臺的這件事？ |
| gazette.blocks[211][0] |
陳院長建仁：我不認為這是一種濫權。 |
| gazette.blocks[212][0] |
羅委員智強：好，沒關係，你又忘記前面10分鐘，不對，5分鐘前的陳建仁。 |
| gazette.blocks[213][0] |
陳院長建仁：我贊成要支持新聞自由，但是我不贊成造謠或是為題宣傳的這種媒體啦。 |
| gazette.blocks[214][0] |
羅委員智強：院長，我問你下一題，近年來詐騙橫行，許多善良百姓人財兩失，我想請問您，詐騙是國恥嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[215][0] |
陳院長建仁：詐騙確實在臺灣需要繼續加強打詐。 |
| gazette.blocks[216][0] |
羅委員智強：我想請問院長，你很愛跟馬英九比較，上次食安報告就跟馬英九比較，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[217][0] |
陳院長建仁：你更喜歡比啦。 |
| gazette.blocks[218][0] |
羅委員智強：來，讓你再來比一次，請問馬英九任內被詐欺的被害人多還是蔡英文任內多？ |
| gazette.blocks[219][0] |
陳院長建仁：全世界在這十年來詐騙案件都在增加…… |
| gazette.blocks[220][0] |
羅委員智強：我只講馬英九跟蔡英文，你不要……你馬維拉扯完還要扯世界維拉嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[221][0] |
陳院長建仁：我跟你講的是事實，這是全球的趨勢…… |
| gazette.blocks[222][0] |
羅委員智強：你講不知道就好了啦！我不會怪你不知道數字，我上次問你數字你也都不知道啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[223][0] |
陳院長建仁：不要在這裡……把它當作是一個秀場啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[224][0] |
羅委員智強：我再問你一個…… |
| gazette.blocks[225][0] |
陳院長建仁：我跟你講，很重要的一件事情，當電子媒體越來越…… |
| gazette.blocks[226][0] |
羅委員智強：立法委員質詢叫秀場？ |
| gazette.blocks[227][0] |
陳院長建仁：媒體的情形越來越……的時候…… |
| gazette.blocks[228][0] |
羅委員智強：主席時間暫停，主席時間暫停，請你尊重我的質詢權。 |
| gazette.blocks[229][0] |
主席：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[230][0] |
羅委員智強：我再問你一次，馬政府任內跟蔡英文政府任內，哪一個任內的詐欺被害人多？ |
| gazette.blocks[231][0] |
陳院長建仁：我可以回答了嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[232][0] |
羅委員智強：你說呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[233][0] |
陳院長建仁：我可以回答了是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[234][0] |
羅委員智強：你說呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[235][0] |
陳院長建仁：你不是要暫停…… |
| gazette.blocks[236][0] |
羅委員智強：你當然可以回答啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[237][0] |
陳院長建仁：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[238][0] |
羅委員智強：你要繼續拖我時間沒關係啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[239][0] |
陳院長建仁：這兩個時空不一樣，我要講的就是當電子媒體越來越…… |
| gazette.blocks[240][0] |
羅委員智強：好啦！謝謝你啦！馬英九年平均3萬3,519人…… |
| gazette.blocks[241][0] |
陳院長建仁：你這樣比沒有意義的啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[242][0] |
羅委員智強：蔡英文年平均4萬2,168人，多1萬人，我再問你…… |
| gazette.blocks[243][0] |
陳院長建仁：時空背景不一樣…… |
| gazette.blocks[244][0] |
羅委員智強：時空？你是時空切割之術，連新聞自由都可以切割！連憲法保障立法院的聽證調查你都可以切割！你乾脆叫時空切割次元王好了！ |
| gazette.blocks[245][0] |
陳院長建仁：這本來就是時空不一樣…… |
| gazette.blocks[246][0] |
羅委員智強：來！我再問你！馬英九任內詐欺嫌疑犯多還是蔡英文？ |
| gazette.blocks[247][0] |
蔡部長清祥：跟委員說明，我們破獲的也相當多，不能只用被害人來算…… |
| gazette.blocks[248][0] |
羅委員智強：我問你！部長，沒關係，因為我比較尊重您啦！剛剛那位我不尊重啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[249][0] |
蔡部長清祥：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[250][0] |
羅委員智強：因為那位就是殺害新聞自由的一個禍首，我讓你回答，馬英九任內詐欺嫌疑犯多還是蔡英文？ |
| gazette.blocks[251][0] |
蔡部長清祥：當然用人數來比，因為我們破獲的多，當然所呈現的數字多…… |
| gazette.blocks[252][0] |
羅委員智強：馬英九年平均是2萬人，蔡英文年平均3萬3,000人，多出1萬3,000人。院長，我再問，到你啦！前面都可以推給蘇貞昌也沒關係啦！去年5月院長拍板「打詐行動綱領1.5」，想請問院長，去年下半年在打詐國家隊的努力之下，詐欺案減少了嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[253][0] |
陳院長建仁：沒有。 |
| gazette.blocks[254][0] |
羅委員智強：非常誠實，2023年1月到5月1萬6,799件，6月到12月2萬1,485件，你知道我有個體會耶！我終於懂「打詐行動綱領1.5」是什麼意思了！不是要升級打詐行動，是件數增加1.5倍啦！院長，你還能夠自我感覺良好於你的打詐績效嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[255][0] |
陳院長建仁：當然啦！我們打詐……我可以講話嗎…… |
| gazette.blocks[256][0] |
羅委員智強：當然自我感覺良好，就像說…… |
| gazette.blocks[257][0] |
陳院長建仁：過去112年裡面，我們有1,851萬通的詐騙電話被攔阻，有801萬通的惡意簡訊被阻擋…… |
| gazette.blocks[258][0] |
羅委員智強：沒有關係…… |
| gazette.blocks[259][0] |
陳院長建仁：而且我們阻止的詐騙案件一共有1萬1,300件，阻擋的金額有75.9億，如果在查扣不法所得…… |
| gazette.blocks[260][0] |
羅委員智強：詐騙受害者比馬英九每年多1萬人，詐騙嫌疑犯比馬英九時代每年多1萬3,000人…… |
| gazette.blocks[261][0] |
陳院長建仁：通報越來越多的時候，自然就會增加…… |
| gazette.blocks[262][0] |
羅委員智強：連你自己執政，詐騙案件都增加1.5倍，我告訴你！你做最好一件事叫自我感覺良好啦！你自我感覺良好能力超越馬英九啦！我直接講啦！真的。 |
| gazette.blocks[263][0] |
陳院長建仁：你在講的不是我啦！是另外一個人…… |
| gazette.blocks[264][0] |
羅委員智強：你講的自我感覺良好，我就講簡單的，食安報告我也超級佩服你啊！你知道你被你的部長薛瑞元打臉嗎？我在問你食品中毒，你跟我講不是食安問題，上次我在部會質詢，他就說是食安問題，然後我跟你講，食品中毒人數…… |
| gazette.blocks[265][0] |
陳院長建仁：食品中毒不是食安事件的一個重大的…… |
| gazette.blocks[266][0] |
羅委員智強：我不跟你重複講食品中毒，我只跟你講的是…… |
| gazette.blocks[267][0] |
陳院長建仁：食品中毒…… |
| gazette.blocks[268][0] |
羅委員智強：食品中毒你每年比馬英九多400人，你連查驗食品的安全檢驗數字每年比馬英九少21萬件，你都可以講你食安做得比較棒，我當然能夠接受你說你詐騙做得比較棒啊！你自我感覺這麼良好，無敵宇宙切割刀，我當然只能佩服你的自我感覺良好啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[269][0] |
陳院長建仁：自我感覺良好不是我吧！是另外一個人…… |
| gazette.blocks[270][0] |
羅委員智強：我想再請問你，院長，你知道我們校園暴力8年漲多少倍嗎？校園暴力8年漲多少倍？我告訴你啦！從2016年到2023年，校園暴力跟偏差行為從6,959件暴增到2萬7,511件，漲幅高達4倍，你覺得我們校園暴力的問題嚴不嚴重？ |
| gazette.blocks[271][0] |
陳院長建仁：校園暴力的問題確實需要我們繼續來改進。 |
| gazette.blocks[272][0] |
羅委員智強：謝謝你，這次你很誠懇地回答，我感謝你，所以我們要一起來改進。我想請問你，校園暴力不只發生在學生，也對老師嘛！對不對？像部長那天我有跟你在質詢，對不對？部長你待會先不要講話，我現在要問院長知不知道最新時事，因為你上次被我考倒，我想再重複考一次，好不好？可以嗎？我想問院長，你有沒有看到最近一位高中老師被特教學生暴力毆打的一個影片，有沒有看過？ |
| gazette.blocks[273][0] |
陳院長建仁：有，好像在電視上有看過。 |
| gazette.blocks[274][0] |
羅委員智強：有看過，你知道最後怎麼收場的嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[275][0] |
陳院長建仁：不清楚。 |
| gazette.blocks[276][0] |
羅委員智強：那個老師站在那裡就是一動都不動，讓學生毆打他，完全不還手，沒有辦法處理，他叫教官，找不到教官，結果學生出去以後回來再繼續打他，打到最後是班上的同班同學去壓制這個施暴的學生。院長，如果你是那位老師，你作何感想？ |
| gazette.blocks[277][0] |
陳院長建仁：當然很難過。 |
| gazette.blocks[278][0] |
羅委員智強：我也很難過，所以這一點我真的要拜託院長，這個真的就跟任何我們講的政治立場無關了。 |
| gazette.blocks[279][0] |
陳院長建仁：這要改進。 |
| gazette.blocks[280][0] |
羅委員智強：真的要把校園安全網補起來，我遇到很多老師很痛苦啊！這些年來，我們教育的政策設計相對太過剝奪今天老師在安全管教、維護校園安全的職能，所以才造成今天這位老師站在那個地方只能捱打，我還真想不出他除了捱打以外他能做什麼？他也通報教官啦！教官也不可能立刻到啊！還要找人啊！然後就在那邊繼續被打。我就問，同學上去壓制他是對的SOP嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[281][0] |
陳院長建仁：這整個事件發生之後，讓我們非常地痛心，所以教育部也會積極再研擬一個新的管教要點，讓這種事情不會再發生。 |
| gazette.blocks[282][0] |
羅委員智強：我想要跟院長再講下一件事，我們不只暴力的問題越來越嚴重，我們青少年的自殺率也越來越嚴重，你知道吧？你知道我們6年來學生試圖輕生的統計是增加還是減少？幅度是多少，你知道嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[283][0] |
陳院長建仁：我想是增加。 |
| gazette.blocks[284][0] |
羅委員智強：6年增加10.7倍啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[285][0] |
潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，這個確實我們要注意，但是委員，這一部分…… |
| gazette.blocks[286][0] |
羅委員智強：我知道你要講你們在鼓勵通報嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[287][0] |
潘部長文忠：因為自殺防治法公布後，課予每一位教育人員一定要有通報的責任。 |
| gazette.blocks[288][0] |
羅委員智強：我剛剛說過，我知道你們是在鼓勵通報嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[289][0] |
潘部長文忠：確實應該要這樣做。 |
| gazette.blocks[290][0] |
羅委員智強：可是我要講，變得更嚴重也是事實啊！不是嗎？今天我們看到，現在校園不單是暴力的問題困擾著我們的老師，青少年也很憂慮啊！這一點真的是也要拜託部長跟院長，真的要從學生的角度、從老師的角度，不管是校園的安全管理還是今天校園學生的心理輔導，這些都是要好好地努力加強，院長可以做到嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[291][0] |
陳院長建仁：這個我們當然要來加強…… |
| gazette.blocks[292][0] |
潘部長文忠：我也跟委員報告，這個確實要持續努力，包含我們針對更多的輔導專業教師，也是希望能夠在這上面多給予學生幫助。 |
| gazette.blocks[293][0] |
羅委員智強：謝謝部長，我已經開始連署學生輔導法的修法草案，希望能夠明定學生身心調適假的準則，提升專任專業輔導人員的校園覆蓋率，獎勵輔導教師跟輔導人員進修與成效，明確中途離校學生的預防、追蹤及復學輔導之法源這四個面向，我希望部長我們可以一起來努力，可以嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[294][0] |
潘部長文忠：我想學生輔導法目前也正在做這方面的檢討，希望能夠來增強。 |
| gazette.blocks[295][0] |
羅委員智強：最後，我有個小禮物要送給院長，但是我發現今天我還蠻肯定院長的，你知道為什麼要準備這個東西嗎？因為我上次食安報告，我發現院長你的搶話蠻嚴重的，但今天我發現只有一次，所以我今天要給院長肯定啊！所以這個牌子我不用送給你了，我本來要說的是什麼？憲法增修條文第三條第二項第一款後段「立法委員在開會時，有向行政院院長及行政院各部會首長質詢之權。」沒有給你插話權，但今天你插話的狀況比較少，所以我肯定你，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[296][0] |
主席：謝謝羅委員智強的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[296][1] |
接下來我們請登記第45號的張委員智倫質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
174 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
院會-11-1-3 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
韓國瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
林宜瑾 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
黃仁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
林俊憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
邱若華 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
陳素月 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
高金素梅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
林月琴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
盧縣一 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
李昆澤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
許宇甄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
何欣純 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
張智倫 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
87 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-03-05 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1130501 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1130501_00004 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[1] |
1130501_00005 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期第3次會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
施政質詢
對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─ |
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主席有請院長再請陳院長備詢羅委員院長您好民主國家的立法權包括聽證及調查權4至585號明確指出立法院為有效行使憲法所賦予之立法職權本其固有之權能自得享有一定之調查權 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
46.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
72.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院與院會決議後可要求調查事項相關之人民或政府人員陳述證言表示意見違反協助調查義務者可以處罰。失去調查權和聽證權的立法院就像缺了牙的老虎根本沒有辦法有效監督立法院應該儘速完成相關修法請問院長我的這一段話你同不同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
73.43 |
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101.738 |
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我看這個調查權的這個部分實際上立法院這一邊以外呢還有這個監察院也有調查權我只問您這一段話您覺得您同不同意我們在這個國會殿堂裡面我們就有來接受這個很簡單的問題認不認同的情況認不認同如果違反了協助調查的義務科與處罰你認不認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
104.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
131.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
這一個部分我個人是覺得在這一個調查的過程當中我們叫做違反﹖ 院長你有憲政高度答這個話支支吾吾的也不太像你我再問你一次對於違反﹖在立法院應該彼此尊重對於違反聽證調查義務者科與處罰你認不認同我覺得應該彼此尊重認不認同我在這裡我 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
133.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
134.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
感謝你嚴重的打臉了陳其邁 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
140.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
161.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
這是2012年12月6日陳其邁、鄭麗君、立委們召開健全議事運作,賦予國會聽證調查權記者會當中的主張。我原文照念,恭喜你,鄭重打臉的2012年的陳其邁。陳其邁明確要求建立國會聽證調查制度,並對違反者可以處罰。 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
167.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
182.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我再想請教院長您下一句話我已經在朝你國會聽證調查的法案準備要修正立法院職權行使法底下是我的修法理由跟修法方向想請教院長是否認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
183.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
202.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
立院得設置調查委員會或專案小組,調閱文件及要求有關機關人員提供證言資料。如果立法院對調閱文件之存在或真實性有合理重大懷疑,經院會決議得要求政府機關提供原件, |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
203.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
229.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
立法院行使調查權時,行政機關如果沒有法律依據行政特權或正當理由,拒絕列席提供證言虛偽陳述,可含請司法機關處罰追訴,致令藐視國會罪,官員公然說謊,得處罰之。你覺得我的立法理由寫得好不好啊?不太好。不太好啊?恭喜你打臉了柯建民。 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
231.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
249.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這個提案是民進黨、立法院黨團、柯建民總召等人在2016年4月提出的修法版本和文字內容而藐視國會罪的部分也是蔡同榮先生一貫的主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
250.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
279.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
在民進黨的版本裡面他所修正的立法院職權行使法第74條之二針對無法律依據行政特權正當理由拒絕拖延引力不提供文件資料或物件或者是做虛偽陳述等等的行為要可以新台幣1萬元以上30萬元以下罰還並得按次連續處罰可不可以請院長告訴我為什麼你要打臉陳其邁為什麼你要打臉 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
280.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
306.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
何建民呢我覺得時空有改變那很重要的呢時空再度改變就是你們的屁股的位置不一樣所以我們很重要換了位置就換了腦袋委員我講完我們需要審慎嚴厲來聽取各方的意見剛才我跟你講跟你說的是我個人的看法那很重要的院長你今天備詢是以什麼身份在這邊備詢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
308.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
332.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
你是以行政院院長的身份在這裡培訓。沒有關係,院長,我告訴你,你在這邊就充分的展現了民進黨的反覆。身為民進黨的閣員,你公然打臉民進黨立法院黨團提出來的國會改革版本。然後呢,連陳其邁高雄市長的面子你也不給,你就打臉他。可是我跟院長講,你完全正確,你知道為什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
334.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
354.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
因為民進黨就是一個換了屁股就換了腦袋的政黨啊。這個我不同意。有耐心你不同意。但是你剛剛答詢就證明了這件事情。2016年4月的民進黨版本他贊不贊成國會聽證調查。白紙黑字喔還是你要像上次要去查資料認為我講的是不對的。我講的是有憑有據喔。可是今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
362.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
383.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
行政院長、民進黨行政院長公然反對國會聽證調查也反對對於違反國會聽證調查義務要刻意罰還這些都是民進黨2016年的主張也是2012年陳其邁的主張啊甚至蔡同榮一輩子要爭取的國會聽證調查他是心願、遺願啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
385.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
395.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
就被你三言兩句輕言輕輕的就把他抹煞了可是為什麼我說你是正確的你知道柯建民現在總召講到國會聽證調查他怎麼說你知道嗎?您知道嗎?他說這叫毀憲亂政 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
404.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
425.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
你認同嗎?建立國會聽證調查制度要毀憲亂政嗎?我想國會聽證調查目前在這一個5000分的立法院不應該...院長我再給你一個修正的機會你贊不贊成民進黨2016年版本4月提出來要建立國會聽證調查制度?贊不贊成? |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
427.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
428.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
他直接說立法院就有調查權啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
451.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
476.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這是大百萬4-585號寫字寫的而且如果對於違反聽證調查15號直接寫可以得以科處罰還所以這是何憲的何來毀憲亂政之說呢我這邊做一個很簡單的結論院長我告訴你我不怪你因為民進黨的柯建民總召就自己在自己打臉打臉打到你最近可能都看他的說法你可能就被他誤導了 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
477.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
506.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
回去讀讀憲法讀讀民進黨2016年的版本比較實際我在這邊跟院長報告羅智強在這邊公開宣布我今天百分之百站在2016年的民進黨這邊我會提一個跟民進黨2016年的4月完全百分之百一致不差的國會聽證調查制度的修法法案希望院長可以給2016年的民進黨一點鼓勵可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
507.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
535.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
可不可以?請院長回答。這個很簡單。可不可以?如果...沒有關係,我跟院長講,我就是要眼睜睜睜大眼睛看看民進黨去反對自己2016年4月提出來的國會聽證調查法案。我就要看看民進黨的屁股有沒有長到腦袋上面,要不要繼續的打臉自己。 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
536.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
564.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
院長我想請教您下一個問題NCC是才委員會制對不對?是這是幾個委員?7個要經院長提名立法院同意嘛對7月會有4位委員任期屆滿按照法律請問幾月底要完成提名?4月底所以沒有意外是你來提名嘛對不對?是 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
565.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
590.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我想請問賴清德總統當選有沒有來跟你溝通委員的人選目前還沒沒有是不是我想請教你你已經多次在答詢當中說你不會留任行政院長對不對是所以換言之你在4月底提名了這些人之後520以後這些委員就新政府了對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
591.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
614.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那你不覺得你開手政府你提名委員問你你有沒有要跟新政府要溝通一下當然要啊當然要但是到現在為止還沒嘛好那賴清德說要提名跨黨派人士擔任NCC委員那考量到立議院有同意權你會不會尊重立議院的多數意見事先做溝通還是你就直接提名丟到立法院來投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
616.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
624.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我想有各式各樣的溝通而且各式各樣的徵詢你會溝通徵詢嗎?不會就自己就直接提名人選就丟到立法院來投票了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
626.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
648.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
謝謝院長,我這裡自己肯定你,跟目前國會多數的在野黨好好溝通。那我想問你,NCC最主要組織任務是落實保障言論自由,維護媒體自主嘛,對不對?是。可是過去8年民進黨執政也掌握了NCC的提名運作,外界有很多的批評。 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
649.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
658.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
認為NCC上市的獨立機關該有的獨立自主性當然我相信你不認同可是我要問的我們應該有一個法律明確保障報社電視廣播試驗的獨立自主啊不要受政府的侵害啊要啊 需要要是不是啊那請問我們現在NCC關掉哪個新聞台啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
677.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
683.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我直接告訴你我剛講的話很簡單我講的話就是民進黨黨綱裡寫的我並沒有看到你們真的去尊重民進黨黨綱裡面保護新聞自由的精神啊獨立自主的精神在我們有保護新聞自由NCC委員主委的治理之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
704.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
710.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
作為總統或執政者,無論電視台或節目的好壞,就算很討厭某電視台,要關掉電視台或節目都不該是由政府去關,而是要由閱聽人,也就是觀眾,透過市場機制來決定。 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
730.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
741.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
請問院長你認同這句話嗎?不該由政府去關新聞台你認同這句話嗎?院長這句話只有認同不認同啦不該由政府去關新聞台你認不認同?部委我沒有問你喔我沒有問你喔我問的是院長喔第四次問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
760.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
787.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
新聞台跟節目不該是由政府去關,這句話你認不認同?法律不對要不要改?法律今天授權NCC可以關新聞台。我跟你挑戰的就是法律的正當性。我再問你一次,我就說這法律不對要修嗎?我要問院長,抱歉。 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
789.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
797.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
你沒什麼公信力我不想要問你啦我要問院長新聞台跟節目不該是由政府去管這句話你認不認同第六次問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
802.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
829.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我是認同,但是...謝謝你認同,請問你旁邊的那位關掉哪一個新聞台?但是問題是...你旁邊那位關掉哪一個新聞台?我們議法進行各種換照制度。你們...我講的是...我講的是憲政當中新聞自由的價值。今天我認為破壞了新聞自由的這個上位價值,法律就要修改。議員長你認不認同? |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
832.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
850.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我倒退來再問你,請問現在的法律,你剛說你認同政府不可以關新聞台嘛,你剛講的嘛,你要收回啦,不會吧?現在的法律違反了你的信念。 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
850.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
865.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
你剛說你認同政府不可以關新聞臺﹖現在法律授權NCC這位新聞自由的屠夫去關新聞臺的時候沒有什麼新聞自由屠夫的問題我問你你前面已經講你的前提講完了來 院長我再問你一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
875.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
895.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
現在的法律是不是讓NCC授權可以關新聞台審查執照?他可以換照他可以審查換照你不給他執照就關了啊就是關新聞台啊你有沒有給中間執照?你給他執照他會關嗎?換照制度本來就是法律規定的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
896.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
922.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
院長,我剛講新聞,那我想請問你啊,國民黨威權時代的報禁你總不認同嗎?你不會支持國民黨時代的報禁吧?那國民黨時代報禁也有法律依據啊,這裡現在是報紙都是政府說關就關就可以,為什麼快要來解除報禁?就是法律不正義嘛,你認不認同?還是你要,我沒問你,請你不要講話。我問你院長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
924.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
945.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我想你不要把兩件事情給扯在一起。我們現在就講說NCC的功能。你剛剛前面自己講的話你又要改口了嗎?你要改口了嗎?我想在這一個神聖的民主殿堂裡面不要去講這種神聖的民主殿堂 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
950.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
966.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
你確於捍衛新聞自由,連自己都知道政府不會關新聞台。你自己都知道政府不會關新聞台,結果你在旁邊,你說叫依法辦理。那照你的邏輯威權政治國民黨,你也去加入算了。非常好! |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
970.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
997.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
給你掌聲鼓勵這個法律違反你的信念不是羅智強的信念是你陳建仁的信念你說政府不可以關新聞台我直接跟你講你知道這句話我剛剛講的是誰講的嗎?也不是羅智強講的是陳水扁總統講的他非常反對關中天新聞台他認為他不會關新聞台他不能理解你現在的徒子徒孫傷害新聞自由啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
998.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
999.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
現在判決的結果還在訴訟當中我覺得可以我的回答嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1019.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1019.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我要再問下一句話這訴訟進行下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1034.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1043.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
你總要花多少律師費啦?跟中天的官司?你打了26加1的案子欸!我要問你花了多少訴訟費?我告訴你,這要跟我依法論法,你知道嗎?行政機關!給你!尊重我回答! |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1062.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1081.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
行政機關做的行政處分,在行政訴訟過程當中,敗訴是很顯見的。你要輸到實踐官司,你跟我講你很跑爆爆。沒有關係,至少百分之百你輸掉了。一天撤到了這件事。 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1082.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1083.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
為什麼高等法院判你們輸啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1107.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1135.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
高等法院並沒有完全查清楚說我們上訴 哎呀 好了不起啊 原來是高等法院的錯啊陳水扁也錯了 高等法院也錯了 陳其邁也錯了 柯建民也錯了今天真的是發現只有你陳耀祥是對的 只有你陳建和是對的 這可受公平我再問一件事情 院長你知道嗎 不用你回答 我問院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1137.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1161.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
就算今天中省NCC敗訴你知道結果中間可不可以到52台復牌可不可以我告訴你也沒辦法因為你旁邊那位會再撤銷他一次無限循環這就是為什麼今天我要拜託院長你發揮你的學者良知 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1162.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1180.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
你回到你的初心你最初說的那一句話政府不可以關新聞台我真的希望你能夠記住這句話因為那是在你的良知發波的那一刻你講出了這句話你被旁邊這個人影響了啊你被旁邊這個人影響了啊沒關係我告訴你我的主張很簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1185.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1205.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
就是要修法節制NCC這種濫用政府職權傷害新聞自由的事情你認不認同?你站不站在修法?你站不站在修法約束政府濫權關新聞台的這件事?沒關係你又忘掉了前面10分鐘不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1207.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1233.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我贊成要支持新聞自由,但是我不贊成造謠或者是未提宣傳的媒體﹖今天來詐騙橫行,許多善良百姓人財兩失。我想請問您,詐騙是國恥嗎?詐騙確實是在台灣需要再繼續加強,來打詐。我想請問院長,您很愛跟馬英九比較,對不對?上次食安報告就跟馬英九比較,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1234.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1252.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
來,詐騙,讓你再來比一次。請問馬英九任內被詐欺的被害人多還是蔡英文任內多?我只講馬英九跟蔡英文,你的馬維拉扯完還要扯世界維拉嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1253.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1255.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
主席時間暫停請你尊重我的質詢權我再問你一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1282.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1287.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
馬政府任內跟蔡英文政府任內哪一個任內的詐欺被害人多?我可以回答了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1296.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1314.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
你說呢?我可以回答了是不是?你說呢?你當然可以回答啊。你要去拖我時間沒關係啊。這兩個時空不一樣。我要講的就是說當這個月子媒體月圓...馬英九年平均33519人,蔡英文年平均42168人,多1萬人。然後再問你齁,你的時空切割之術,連新聞自由都可以切割。 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1327.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1329.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
來 我再問你馬英九任內詐欺嫌疑辦多還是蔡英文 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1343.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1345.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
馬英九任內詐欺嫌疑犯多還是蔡英文? |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1361.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1389.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
當然用人數來比,因為我們破獲的多,當然所呈現的...白鷹九年平均是兩萬人,蔡英文年平均三萬三千人,多出一萬三千人。院長我再問,到你了,前面都可以推給蘇貞昌也沒關係。去年五月院長拍板打詐行動綱領1.5,想請問院長,去年下半年在 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1390.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1405.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
打詐國家對努力之下,詐欺案減少了嗎?沒有。誒,非常誠實。2023年1月到5月16799件,6月到12月21485件。你知道我有個體會餒,打詐1.5行動綱領我終於懂什麼意思了。不是要升級打詐行動,是件數增加1.5倍啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1416.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1432.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
院長,你還能夠自我感覺良好於你的打詐的跡象嗎?當然啊,我們打詐我...你當然自我感覺良好,就像說...過去的1到112年這裡面我們有1851萬通的這個詐騙電話被攔阻 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1436.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1438.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我告訴你做最好一件事叫自我感覺良好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1466.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1485.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
你自我感覺良好能力超越馬英九啦我直接講啦真的你再講的不是我啦你講的自我感覺 我要講很簡單 食安報告我也超級佩服你啊你知道你被你的部長薛樂園打臉嗎我在問你說食品中毒你跟我講不是食安問題你們上次我在部會質詢他就說是食安問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1486.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1512.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我只跟你講的是食品中毒你每年比馬英九多400人你連查驗食品的安全檢驗數字每年比馬英九少21萬件你都可以講你食安做得比較棒我當然能夠接受你說你詐騙做得比較棒啊你自我感覺這麼良好無敵宇宙切割刀 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1514.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1519.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
我當然只能佩服你的自我感覺良好啊。我再想請問你喔,院長。你知道我們校園暴力8年漲多少倍嗎?校園暴力8年漲多少倍?我告訴你啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1534.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1543.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
2016 年到2023年,校園暴力跟偏差行為從6959件暴增到27511件,漲幅高達4倍。你覺得我們校園暴力的問題嚴不嚴重?謝謝你,這次你很誠懇的回答,我感謝你。 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1559.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1585.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
所以我們要一起來改進。我想請問您齁,校園暴力不只對待學生,也對待老師嘛,對不對?像部長那天我有跟你在質詢嘛,對不對?部長你先不要講話,我先要問問院長知不知道最新時事,因為你上次被我考倒了。我想再重複考一次,好不好?可以嗎?我想問院長,你有沒有看到最近一位高中老師被學生暴力毆打的一個影片,特教學生,有沒有看過? |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1587.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1616.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
有沒有看過?好像在電視上有看過。有看過齁。你知道最後怎麼收場了嗎?不清楚。那個老師站在那裡就是一動都不動,讓學生就是毆打他。完全不還手,沒有辦法處理。他叫教官,找不到教官,結果學生出去以後回來再繼續打他。打到最後是班上同班同學來去壓制他,壓制這個施暴的學生。 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
1618.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
1647.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
院長,你是那位老師,你作何感想?當然很難過。我也很難過。所以這一點真的我要拜託院長,這個真的就跟任何的我們講說政治立場無關。真的要把這個校園安全網補起來,我這遇到很多老師很痛苦啊。這些年來我們的教育的政策設計相對太過剝奪了今天老師安全管教維護校園安全的職能。 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
1648.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
1669.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
所以才造成今天這位老師站在那個地方他只能挨打欸我還真想不出他除了挨打以外他能做什麼他也通報教官啊然後教官也不可能立刻到啊還要找人啊然後就在那邊繼續被打然後我就問嘛同學上去壓制他是對的SOP嗎是對的SOP嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
1674.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
1676.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我想要跟院長再講下一件事。我們不只暴力的問題越來越嚴重,我們青少年自殺率也越來越嚴重,你知道吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
1698.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
1708.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
你知道我們6年來學生試圖親身的統計是增加還是減少?幅度是多少?您知道嗎?6年增加10.7倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
1715.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
1721.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
我剛說過我知道你們是在鼓勵通報嘛可是我要講變得更嚴重也是事實啊不是嗎今天我們看到我們現在校園不但是暴力的問題困擾著我們的老師新少年也很憂慮啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
1743.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
1748.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那這一點真的是也要拜託部長跟院長真的要從學生的角度 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
1750.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
1765.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
從老師的角度不管是校園的安全管理還是說今天我們校園學生的心理輔導這些都是要好好的努力加強院長可以做到嗎?這個我們當然要來加強二位顧問報告這個確實要持續努力我已經開始連署我已經開始連署學生輔導法的修法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
1776.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
1778.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
我想學生輔導法目前也正在做這方面的檢討,希望能夠來增強。 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
1802.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
1828.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
最後我有個小禮物要送給院長但是我發現今天我還蠻肯定院長你知道為什麼要準備這個東西嗎?因為我上次的實案報告我發現院長你的搶話蠻嚴重的但今天我發現只有一次所以我今天給院長肯定所以這個牌子我不用送給你了我本來是要出的是什麼?憲法徵修條件第三條第二項第一款後代立法委員在開會時有 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
1837.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
1837.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
謝謝羅委員自己。 |