| IVOD_ID |
149267 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149267 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-04T12:28:22+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-04T12:38:17+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:09:55 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddda71519351f5dfd832dd7be9832461c05f8ba9b0039caa7a6d6b39e882d62cf0b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:28:22 - 12:38:17 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。） |
| gazette.lineno |
809 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時28分）主席、各位委員、秘書長好。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：還有我們司法院所有的官員。這是一個花蓮地方法院刑事判決，請看一下，這個是幾年前的一個判決，這裡面特別提到了被告違反山坡地保育利用條例的案件，裡面的主文是：「犯山坡地保育利用條例第三十四條第一項之非法墾殖罪，處有期徒刑陸月，如易科罰金……」，這裡面最主要說到他違反的犯罪事實是，這個土地業經行政院公告為山坡地保育利用條例所稱之山坡地。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][1] |
我們看山坡地保育利用條例第三條，本條例所稱山坡地，是要經過行政院核定公告之公、私有土地。這個很清楚；然後山坡地保育利用條例第十條，在公有或私人、他人山坡地，不得擅自墾殖、占用；第三十四條第一項，違反第十條規定，處有期徒刑還有併科罰金；水土保持法也有類似的一個規定。很重要的一點，山坡地保育區不等於山坡地，山坡地保育區不等於山坡地，區域計畫法施行細則第十一條的山坡地保育區，它有這些定義。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][2] |
我們來看這個案子，他被判有期徒刑的案子，它是花蓮縣萬榮鄉紅葉段1457地號，按照行政院農委會當時的水土保持局，這個並不是山坡地，並不是山坡地；然後另外一筆土地，紅葉段1457-18地號，行政院未核定公告為山坡地。所以這個判決是錯誤的判決，一般的情況，當然他可以上訴，但是因為這個八十幾歲的老先生，撒奇萊雅族，他從小就在這個土地上耕種、使用，而且它又是原住民保留地，因為是在不同鄉，土地在另外一個萬榮鄉，他是住在瑞穗鄉，他是在隔壁，所以他也不是在申請保留，這是祖先留下來的土地，就繼續使用，然後就被隔壁的瑞穗農場提告，瑞穗農場是承租的，所以這個部分一提告後，結果被判有期徒刑，沒幾天他就過世了，因為非常、非常地生氣，一生所使用的、自己祖先留下來的土地，竟然被判有期徒刑，幾天之後他就過世了。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][3] |
現在是這樣的，現在上網查這個還在，所以這個人一生的清白，還有他的子女，人家上網一查就看到他的父母親就是有刑責的人，所以第一個要解決的是什麼？這個一直沒有解決，因為他人死了，沒有辦法上訴，對不對？他的子女可不可以代為上訴，也不行嘛，然後能不能再審？也是不行，那到底要怎麼還人家清白？秘書長，要還他清白啊！這個案子我質詢過，但一直沒有解決，因為你是去年才上任，所以一直沒有解決，秘書長是不是能夠再研議？好好去研究、去解決，可以嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：我們研議看看。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你面對麥克風，要有聲音。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：研議。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：一定要解決，我之前也問過你們的副秘書長說可不可以不要上網，現在上網它還在喔！他說回去會研議，研議到現在，現在上網還在，這涉及人一生的清白，這是一個需要去解決的部分。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][1] |
接下來，原住民族基本法第二十條，政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權利；山坡地保育利用條例第三十七條，山坡地範圍內原住民保留地，除依法不得私有外，應輔導原住民取得承租權或無償取得所有權。無論是原基法或是山坡地保育利用條例，都寫得非常明確，但是因為基層的或是中央的、縣的一直沒有做得很好，所以很多我剛剛講的案例，他從小在那邊耕作到了八十幾歲，耕作到後來被判刑，就是因為沒有輔導他取得所有權，它也是原住民保留地喔！我們也有所謂的增劃編原住民保留地，如果一般的國有土地，符合原基法或是增劃編保留地的條件，他可以去增編為原住民保留地，拿到所有權，但是這個工作辦了幾十年了，始終沒有辦完，還有很多的案子。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][2] |
所以我之前有特別希望我們司法院能夠做一個統一解釋，什麼叫統一解釋？就是希望只要涉及到我們人民可以證明說他這個祖先留下來的土地現在正在辦理增劃編原住民保留地的過程當中，他如果被相關的機關提起訴訟的時候，是不是可以就暫緩？就是暫緩判、暫緩審查，先讓他走完這個行政流程，因為行政流程很長，從去鄉鎮公所申請為保留地或是所有權，然後要經過縣政府，縣政府還要送到工廠管理機關，工廠管理機關還要送到原民會，原民會還要報行政院，那個程序非常的冗長，在這麼冗長的過程當中，是不是如果有這樣的案件被移送的時候能夠予以暫緩，等整個行政流程完了之後再處理？這個部分你們有做過開會討論，採否定說，否定說就是可以先不判刑，簡單講，一般的說法就是先不要判，但是沒有做決定、沒有做處理，說不予討論。所以這個部分是不是能夠重啟？因為這種案件我們就不要浪費司法資源，好不好？因為時間的關係，時間到了…… |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
主席：還有其他委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對。是不是能夠再重新討論？ |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：我們再研議。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：要再重新討論，因為當初說不予討論，所以再重新討論嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：這一部分會再提法律問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，下次我還會問，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
主席：謝謝。我們接下來請林沛祥委員、林沛祥委員、林沛祥委員，不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][1] |
我們請下一位洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪委員孟楷，不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][2] |
我們下一位請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員，不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][3] |
我們下一位請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][4] |
下一位請蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][5] |
接下來請張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][6] |
下一位請何欣純委員，何欣純委員、何欣純委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][7] |
我們下一位請黃珊珊委員發言，謝謝。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
384 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-36-2 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
吳宗憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
沈發惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
柯建銘 |
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羅智強 |
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莊瑞雄 |
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林思銘 |
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吳思瑤 |
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傅崐萁 |
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謝龍介 |
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陳俊宇 |
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鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
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黃珊珊 |
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329 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-03-04 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1130501 |
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立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢 |
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1130501_00019 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
0.429 |
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28.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
委員發言主席各位委員秘書長好還有我們司法院的所有的官員這個是一個花蓮地方刑事判決這個看一下這個已經幾年前的一個判決書這裡面特別提到這個被告違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
29.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
35.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
《犯山坡地百味利用條例》第34條第一項之非法懇職罪,處有期徒刑6個月,而亦可罰金。 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
49.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
76.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
這裏面最主要就是說這個他說違反犯罪的事實葉金行政院違反這個土地葉金行政院公告為山坡地保育利用條例所稱之山坡地我們看這個山坡地保育利用條例第3條本條例所稱山坡地 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
77.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
96.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
是要經過行政院核定公告之公私有土地很清楚啊然後三波地擺渡條例第10條在這個公有或私人他人三波地不得擅自懇職佔用然後違反的話第4條第1項違反第4條規定處這個有期徒刑還有病科罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
105.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
134.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
隨度保持法也有類似的一個規定很重要的一點山坡地保育期不等於山坡地山坡地保育期不等於山坡地七計劃法實行細則第11條山坡地保育期他有這些定義有這個定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
135.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
163.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
好我們看了這個案子被判有期徒刑的案子他是花蓮縣萬榮鄉紅葉段1457地號按照行政院農委會當時的水土保持局這個並不是山坡地並不是山坡地好另外一筆土地 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
165.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
193.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
紅葉段一四五七之十八地號也行政院未核定公告為三坡地所以這個判決是錯誤的判決一般當然他可以上訴但是因為這個八十幾歲的老先生八十幾歲的老先生沙其萊雅族 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
195.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
223.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
他從小就在這個土地上耕種使用而且他又是原住民保留地喔因為不同鄉住在鄉因為是另外一個望榮鄉啊他住是住在瑞穗鄉他是隔壁所以他也不知道要申請保留這就是祖先留下來的土地啊就繼續使用啊然後就被隔壁的瑞穗瑞穗農場 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
226.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
254.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那一告告瑞穗農場是成豬啊他是成豬所以這個部分一告結果被判有期徒刑沒幾天他就過世因為非常非常的生氣一生所使用的自己祖先留下來的土地竟然被判有期徒刑幾天之後就過世 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
257.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
282.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
現在是怎樣你現在上網還在所以這個人的一生的清白他的子女人家一上網一查他的父母親怎麼樣就是有行者的人所以第一個要解決的是什麼一直沒有解決他人死了沒有辦法上訴對不對我們說他的子女可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
284.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
313.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
大爺上書也不行嗎然後能不能再審意思是不行到底要怎麼還人家清白秘書長要還他清白這個案子秘書長因為這個我執行過一直沒有解決因為你是去年才上任所以一直沒有解決秘書長是不是能夠再研議好好的研究去解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
317.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
325.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我之前也問過你們的副秘書長 可不可以不要上網 現在上網還在喔他說回去演繹啊 演繹到現在啊 現在上網還在 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
343.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
347.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
岩柱民族基本法第20條政府承認岩柱民族土地及自然資源的權利山坡地百惠利用條例37條 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
369.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
396.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
山坡地範圍內沿住民保留地．除議法不得事由外．應輔導沿住民．取得成租權．或無償取得所有權．無論是沿基法．或是山坡地保育令條例．都寫得非常明確．但是因為基層的．或是中央的．縣的一直沒有做得很好．所以很多我剛講的案例． |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
398.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
414.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
他從小在那邊工作80幾歲工作到後來被判刑就是因為沒有輔導他起的所有錢他也是原住民保留地那按照 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
417.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
445.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我們也有所謂的增化編原住民保留地如果一般的國有土地符合這個原基法或是增化編保留地的條件他可以去增編我原住民保留地拿到所有錢但是這個工作辦了幾十年了始終沒有辦完了還很多案子所以我之前有特別希望我們這個司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
451.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
477.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
司法院能夠做做一個統一解釋什麼叫統一解釋就是說希望說只要涉及到這個我們人民可以證明說他這個祖先留下來的土地現在正在辦正在辦理真化邊連住民把留地的過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
479.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
503.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
他如果被相關的機關提起訴訟的時候是不是可以暫緩暫緩審查先讓他走完行政流程因為行政流程很長從鄉鎮公所去申請保留地 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
505.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
534.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
或是所有錢然後還經過縣政府縣政府還要送到工廠管理機關工廠管理機關還要送到人民會人民會還要報行政院那個程序非常的冗長在這麼冗長的過程當中是不是可以如果有這樣的案件被移送的時候能夠暫緩等整個行政流程完了之後再處理這個部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
536.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
560.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
你沒有做過開會討論才否定說否定說就是說可以先不判刑了簡單講就一般的說法就先不要判但是呢沒有做決議你看沒有做處理了不宜討論了 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
562.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
563.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
再提法律問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
591.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
592.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
好,下次我還要問,謝謝 |