| IVOD_ID |
149250 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149250 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-04T11:46:04+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-04T11:56:33+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:29 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2ddd7e9e18978acf0f362dd7be9832461c05f8ba9b0039caa7a68bcbbb6a65c2654e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
謝龍介 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:46:04 - 11:56:33 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。） |
| gazette.lineno |
688 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
謝委員龍介：（11時46分）秘書長你好。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
謝委員龍介：你提到刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條，就是說禁止辯護人在場陳述意見跟筆記權是採取事後救濟的機制，辯護人這些權利一旦被限制、禁止以後，影響到被告的律師倚賴權，事後的救濟他會有什麼樣的實益？ |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：我請刑事廳就這一部分，我們都已經請行政院會銜過…… |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
謝委員龍介：沒有，因為…… |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：我們有整個配套。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
李廳長釱任：跟委員報告一下，有關於第二百四十五條之一這個部分，就是限制律師辯護權的部分，我們有完整的配套，包括在時間……在檢察官或是司法警察對限制律師辯護或是禁止他辯護的時候，我們要求他記明在筆錄裡面，做事後的救濟，而事後救濟如果是被撤銷的話，這部分可能影響到他證據能力的問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
謝委員龍介：就是說事後救濟成功以後，筆錄的證據能力有沒有撤銷？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
李廳長釱任：證據能力就由法院來判斷，假如認為說他違反的話，那可能是因為當時…… |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
謝委員龍介：如果你現在這樣修法，那沒有實質…… |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
李廳長釱任：這真的會影響他的證據能力，會影響他的證據能力的判斷。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
謝委員龍介：會影響？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
李廳長釱任：對，會影響。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
謝委員龍介：以法院的實務，就是證據能力會喪失。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
李廳長釱任：受影響。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
謝委員龍介：是不是這樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
李廳長釱任：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
謝委員龍介：那你們修法有沒有考慮採取檢察官保留或是法官保留的立法模式？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
李廳長釱任：我們在諮詢會的時候曾經有考慮過這樣的模式，但是在法務部的立場，他們認為在偵查中貴在機密性跟迅速性，如果說事先透過所謂的檢察官保留或法官保留的方式，對他們偵查詢問的方式可能在進行上不是那麼順利，所以才會採取事後救濟的方式來處理，以上。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
謝委員龍介：所以基本上就是採取讓他對於辯護人的倚賴這條被告權益的保障。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][1] |
有一個問題比較曖昧，就是增設檢察官助理，我調資料看，這個倡議去年立法院就有了，然後朝野的立法委員都很支持，可是司法院好像還沒有提出草案。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：向委員報告，在這個部分，我們有提出在第4案，也有把法院組織法要增設檢察官助理也都列入我們立法計畫。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
謝委員龍介：你這就是要揹小孩嘛！你好像擱置這個，然後……因為朝野支持的是檢察官助理的增額，你們現在還順帶提出來高等法院也要增設司法事務官嘛！是不是這樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：就是評估是認為，因為在業務單位…… |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
謝委員龍介：那你增加的好像……你這就是擺明……我覺得你在綁架啊！你在綁票他！ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：因為一般我們修法會徵詢各個業務廳。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
謝委員龍介：不然為什麼那個案件大家都支持，你卻一直都送不出來？在等你們，就是在等你們啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：因為他也是最近才拜會我們，2月6號才來拜會我們司法院。機關之間本來就有一套流程…… |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
謝委員龍介：那你現在法院組織法的修正草案到哪裡了？進度到哪裡了？ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：有關要修的條文，我們內部都在整理、會辦當中。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
謝委員龍介：這個是司法院還要到行政院會銜的，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
謝委員龍介：那你現在還沒到司法院，還沒出來啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：我們會儘快。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
謝委員龍介：那我們這會期就審不到了。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：我們會儘快。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
謝委員龍介：對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：因為…… |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
謝委員龍介：這個會期就不可能在司法委員會…… |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：因為畢竟修法有一個格式、有一套流程…… |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
謝委員龍介：本席的看法，這好像是你們自己耽誤到的，你是為了要增加高等法院這些人的設置。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：就是說在2月6號他才正式來拜會我們。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
謝委員龍介：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：公文都還沒有過來。 |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
謝委員龍介：秘書長，對於法務部草擬棄保潛逃罪，還有司法關說罪，你有什麼看法？ |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：這些我們都會…… |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
謝委員龍介：我看你剛才都沒回應他們啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：我們都會支持啦！其實我們都會支持啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
謝委員龍介：是不是因為你們反對，所以這個法案就一直沒有辦法送到立法院來嘛！基本上你們就是抗拒啊！尤其是司法關說罪。 |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：其實我們都尊重，因為這個法是法務部主責，我們會尊重。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
謝委員龍介：因為棄保潛逃跟司法關說，譬如說朱國榮棄保潛逃，剩那麼多錢，為什麼國人對司法沒有信心？你對朱國榮這件事有什麼看法？雖然是個案，他已經走了、跑了、棄保潛逃，社會影響這麼大，你覺得怎麼樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：那個結果就是社會一定會有落差。 |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
謝委員龍介：結果就是跑了，法律明明就賦予法官可以羈押。你看臺南市那個經發局長，他一審判8年，二審減到6年半，法官為什麼不准予他交保？桃園那個局長一審判13年就交保了哦！那為什麼臺南不准允他交保？就法官他看到很多事證，因為他可以限制他嘛！所以才會有臺南市的光電現在還可以繼續偵辦啊！如果交保，他就跑出去了，對不對？光電牽扯那麼多，朱國榮這件也是啊！明明就能夠將他羈押，那你這樣就是讓我們的國民對於法律的情感受到傷害。所以，這些權貴、有錢人只要判刑一個就跑掉一個，你身為司法人，你不會覺得很難過嗎？所以棄保潛逃罪跟司法關說罪本席是希望你們能夠支持啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：這個我們會支持。 |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
謝委員龍介：你會支持？ |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：會支持。 |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
謝委員龍介：那有沒有什麼具體的作為？ |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：我們會跟法務部那邊一起，當然這個主責是法務部，但是我們會支持，會後我們廳也會把這些意見轉達法務部。 |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
謝委員龍介：好。刑法第三百三十九條之四加重詐欺罪是1年以上、7年以下，那你知道現在電信詐騙很多的案件量刑都是在6個月以下，被判2年以上的微乎其微。法院的量刑偏輕，所以造成這些詐欺犯盛行。更誇張的就是一罪一罰，一罪一罰理論上是罪責要更重，可是定刑、執行刑的結果卻是犯越多，他優惠越多啊！秘書長，你看所有實例都這樣啊！這樣一罪一罰還有什麼精神？所以司法院針對量刑，你講一下你怎麼具體來改善。 |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：這個我們有…… |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
謝委員龍介：不然社會上詐騙的越來越多啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：我們有編這些量刑參考加重的這些手冊。 |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
謝委員龍介：那為什麼判出來都不是這樣啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：所以我們法官也要傾聽各界、外界的聲音，我確實…… |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
謝委員龍介：你們內部都沒有檢討過？ |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：當然我們刑事廳也都隨時要去留意這些…… |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
謝委員龍介：我給你提的這個數據是事實嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：現在…… |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
謝委員龍介：那你看國人怎麼看待司法嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：現在就是說這種…… |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
謝委員龍介：詐騙這麼普遍，你身邊一定有人被騙，我也有一個退休的法官朋友被騙了，來向我陳述，我也愛莫能助啊！詐騙是有夠多的！坦白講，他們不怕嘛！那些騙子不怕啊！關幾個月就出來了。不是說一定要……因為你看嘛，它最後包括判2年的也沒幾件，幾乎都是2年以下，騙再多錢都一樣！ |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
主席：謝謝龍介委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[70][1] |
接下來我們請傅崐萁委員發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
384 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-36-2 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
吳宗憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
沈發惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
柯建銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
莊瑞雄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
林思銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
吳思瑤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
傅崐萁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
謝龍介 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
329 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-03-04 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1130501 |
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1130501_00011 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢 |
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1130501_00019 |
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提到刑事訴訟法245禁止辯護人在場陳述意見跟筆記權是採取事後救濟的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
24.502 |
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49.903 |
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那辯護人這一些權力一旦被限制以後,禁止影響到被告的律師依賴權事後的救濟,他會有什麼樣的實意?這一部分,請我們刑事廳,就這一部分我們都已經有請行政院都會刑,我們有整個配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
51.561 |
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51.641 |
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主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
81.861 |
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82.061 |
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主席 |
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99.997 |
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112.637 |
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以法院的實務就是政績能力會喪失那你們修法有沒有考慮說採取檢察官保留或是法官保留的立法模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
113.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
113.67 |
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基本上就是採取讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
142.978 |
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162.17 |
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他對於辯護人的依賴這條被告的權益的保障那你有一個問題比較曖昧就是說檢察官他 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
163.841 |
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191.34 |
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徵社檢察官助理這個倡議在去年我看調資料立法院就有了然後草野的立法委員都很支持可是司法院好像還沒有提出草案我們這一部分有向委員報告我們有提出在第4案那個也有把法院主持法有要 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
192.747 |
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218.214 |
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要徵涉檢察官助理也都列入我們立法計畫你這就是要捍衛孩子嘛你好像擱置這個然後因為朝野支持的是那個檢察官助理的徵額嘛你現在還審査拿出來高等法院你要徵涉司法事務官嗎?是不是這樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
219.659 |
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246.713 |
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就是評估是認為說因為在業務單位啊那你增加的好像你這就是擺明我覺得你在綁架啊你在幫票因為一般我們修法會增刑各個業務 業務廳啊那不然為什麼那個案件大家都支持還會一直刪不出來在擔任就是在擔任啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
249.858 |
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因為之前他也是最近才拜會我們之前2月6號才來拜會我們司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
260.41 |
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283.336 |
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那機關之間本來有一套流程那你現在法院組織法的修正草案到哪裡了進度高的我們都內部在有關條文都在要修的這些條文都在我都在整理會辦這個是司法院還要到行政院會選的嘛對不對那你現在還沒到司法院還沒出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
285.011 |
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311.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我們會盡快 會盡快 這個會期就不可能在司法委員會因為畢竟修法它有一個格式 修法它有一套流程我個人本身的看法 這改正是你們自己合意的 你是為了要增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
313.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
318.151 |
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對於法務部草泥棄保潛逃罪還有司法關縮罪你有什麼看法? |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
335.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
355.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我看你剛才都不敢贏啊是不是因為你們反對嘛所以這個法案就一直沒有辦法送到立法院來嘛基本上你們就是抗拒啊尤其是司法關說罪啊因為棄保潛逃跟司法關說譬如說朱國隆棄保潛逃嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
364.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
370.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
為什麼國人對司法沒有信心?你對出國龍介你有什麼看法?雖然個案那已經走了嘛 跑了嘛 棄保潛逃嘛 那社會影響這麼大嘛 你覺得怎麼樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
382.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
408.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那個結果就是社會一定會有落差法律就是明明賦予法官可以羈押你看台南市那個金華局長他一審判8年二審檢到6年半法官為什麼不准以他交保桃園那個局長一審判13年就交保了那為什麼台南他不准以他交保 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
410.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
437.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
就法官他看到很多事證因為他可以限制他嘛所以才會有臺南市的光電現在還可以繼續偵辦啊如果交保他就照處理啊對不對而且光電牽扯那麼多那祖國龍這也是啊明明就可以給他支啊那你這樣就是讓我們的國民對於法律的情感就受到傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
439.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
464.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以權貴這麼有錢人變判刑一個判一個招一個判一個招一個你做司法人你不會覺得很辛苦嗎所以為什麼棄保潛逃罪跟司法關稅罪本席是希望你們能夠支持啊我們會支持你會支持會支持這樣有什麼具體的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
469.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
492.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那這個我們會跟法務部那邊一起來就是這個當然這個是主責是法務部但是我們會支持我們會後也會我們聽會把這些意見轉給法務部來請法339條制是加重詐欺罪是一年以上七年以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
494.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
523.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那你知道現在電信詐騙 很多的案件 量刑 都是在6個月以下那各位一哈 被判兩年以上的被判兩年以上 判刑兩年以上的微乎其微那法院的量刑偏輕 所以造成這些詐欺犯盛行更誇張的就是說一罪一罰一罪一罰理論上是罪責要更重 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
524.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
543.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
可是．定型執行型的結果呢．卻是換越多．他優惠越多啊．比如你看所有實例都這樣啊．這樣一做一法有什麼情形．所以司法院對這些．針對量刑啊．你講一下你怎麼具體來改善．那這個我們有．沒你想到炸片的越來越多啊． |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
552.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
555.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那為什麼判出來都不是這樣啊?那你們內部都沒有檢討過?我給你提的這個數據是屬性嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
582.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
596.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
現在...那你看國人怎麼看待司法嘛現在就是說這種...詐騙這麼普遍你身後邊一定有人說我某一個法官的朋友退休了叫我們陪他來給我陳述捏我也愛莫能助啊詐騙是有夠多的 因為坦白講他們不怕嘛那邊誰不怕啊 乖乖乖乖的出來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
611.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
618.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
不是說一定要,因為你看嘛,他最後包括破2年沒幾件幾乎都是2年以下騙多少錢就這樣 |