| IVOD_ID |
149197 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149197 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-23-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-04T09:54:38+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-04T10:03:59+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:09:21 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad9f873b941d2dddecf368e836e14d86faa0e83a28976539f8ba9b0039caa7a67f871a20b79b72cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林俊憲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:54:38 - 10:03:59 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】） |
| gazette.lineno |
357 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
林委員俊憲：（9時54分）謝謝主席，本席要邀請工程會吳主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請吳主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：委員你好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
林委員俊憲：主委你好。主委，現在我們全國列管的閒置設施只有剩3件？我看你的報告這樣寫。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
林委員俊憲：恭喜耶！以前都一百多件，現在怎麼剩3件？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：其實公共設施閒置本來就不應該。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
林委員俊憲：本來就不應該啊！我舉個例子，我們臺南歸仁有一個公有市場，2、3樓閒置了快30年了，但是為什麼沒有在我們列管的名單裡面？以前全國列管的閒置設施大概都一、二百件，會不會是因為你改變了認定的方式？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：不是。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
林委員俊憲：不是喔？不然都解決了喔？都有解決了喔？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：以前喔，我跟委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
林委員俊憲：我覺得以前那麼多是因為他們都要報到工程會來，由工程會的一個審核委員下去審查…… |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：不是。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
林委員俊憲：現在都是縣市政府自己先審查，先決定這個算不算閒置設施、需不需要報到工程會來，會不會這樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：以前的幾百件是來自於媒體的報導或是人民的反映，說那個有閒置，就把它列管，是這樣來的。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
林委員俊憲：沒有啦！你自己的報告就這樣寫了。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：沒有，以前是這樣產生的啊，那後來我們研析結果…… |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
林委員俊憲：你看一下，件數都有百多件，這些數字都來自於你工程會，你還說那是媒體報導…… |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：是這樣產生出來的，那…… |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
林委員俊憲：你不要「黑白牽拖」啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：我沒有亂…… |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
林委員俊憲：但件數很多那時候應該不是你任內，102年你還沒來，你107年才上任，現在是這樣，像我們地方就有一個公有市場閒置20、30年，那個面積很大喔，我照片都拍給你看了，那為什麼沒有在列管裡面？我認為就是因為現在是不是閒置設施是由地方政府自己認定啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：本來管理…… |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
林委員俊憲：這樣件數就少了。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：本來使用機關就要去做好使用的公共設施。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
林委員俊憲：對啦，所以你看，你認定的只剩3件，哪有可能？ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：我覺得委員這樣冤枉，不是這樣…… |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
林委員俊憲：對不對？你看，主委…… |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：我不會去要求要數字好看，不會這樣。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
林委員俊憲：你當然不會，是他沒有報上來，縣市政府會要求數字好看，他就不會報給你啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：如果他沒有提出來，那我們該來做確認。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
林委員俊憲：對，因為他不會報給你啦！你聽不懂我的意思嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：絕對不是我們會來…… |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
林委員俊憲：就是縣市政府他自己先決定要不要報給你嘛，那這個數字怎麼會多，對不對？我如果是地方，我當然就列管越少越好，看面子嘛，對不對？所以當然他報給你就少了。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：我覺得這樣也不…… |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
林委員俊憲：報給你少，你乘下來的數字當然就少，你看現在全國閒置設施只有3件，這合理嗎？這可能嗎？這就不可能嘛！那地方政府不報，你當然就不知道，因為你授權給他啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：那他的設施要怎麼樣使用，他自己不用…… |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
林委員俊憲：我知道啦！他自己怎樣？你懂我的意思沒有？所以我認為現在這個數字已經不符合實際狀況了啦！應該是地方政府若沒有在用的都要報上來嘛，對不對？以前是我們工程會有一個委員會在審查算不算閒置設施、需不需要列管，現在工程會已經不做這樣的審查了，就直接丟給地方政府了，所以這個件數就會變很少了。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：對於地方政府有沒有實在申報，我們也會抽查，如果照委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
林委員俊憲：你現在只剩下抽查…… |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：如果照委員這樣講，那表示他不實在，我們抽查不確實，我們會檢討。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
林委員俊憲：那你就要去抽查，對嗎？你現在剩抽查而已，你又沒有在審查，你現在都完全靠縣市政府要很老實，良心發現自己主動報給你，不然你就不知道了。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：這個本來就他的職責。 |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
林委員俊憲：可是以前不是這樣，以前他都要報上來給你們審嘛，你們在去年（2022年）把規則改掉了。再來，工程會你要主動抽查啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：我們會來加強抽查。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
林委員俊憲：對，你只剩這樣，所以現在這個閒置設施的數字，我感到已經沒意義了。第二，今年工程會要開始實施公共工程的減碳性規定，尤其工程會的報告裡面說今年年中，年中我們就算6月，就說要鼓勵自願性的填寫，我們以後所有的公共工程都要填寫它的排碳數據，廠商都要自願性的揭露。現在這個資料庫你要趕快建立，工程會是不是說要自己建立自己的碳排放的資料庫？目前看起來是沒有啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：才開始在規劃。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
林委員俊憲：對，你知道主要的數字都在哪裡嗎？主委，都在環境部嘛！對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
林委員俊憲：那環境部根本還沒有做好啊！我舉個例子給你看，環境部的碳足跡資料庫現在只有列30種類別，其實還差的啦！你也知道我們公共工程會使用到的項目多得不得了啦！我舉一個例子，像這個水泥的碳排放數字還有2014年的，數字都很舊了，我認為連環境部的碳足跡資料庫都很不實在，那麼現在我們如何來請廠商揭露？就是公共工程的施作廠商要填寫其碳排放量，我覺得你如果要推動，這個一定要推動，因為這個是國際上的公約，大家都要這樣推動，但是你那個速度要快啦！要不然那些廠商會說是要叫我怎麼寫呢？我根本就沒有一個參考的數字嘛！所以要落實碳排放的機制，第一個，你們要跨部會去談嘛！像衛福部的碳足跡資料庫什麼時候可以建立？那我們才能開始要求別人嘛！包括你們工程會也要自己建立一個碳排放資料庫，這是你說的嘛！我不知道你們的資料庫是要自己蒐集資料還是要拿環境部的資料來，我不清楚啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[49][1] |
那麼我這裡要再舉個例子給你看，比如說環境部有碳足跡的資訊網，對於做公共工程只列了這幾項，像礦石還有窯業的製品，可能是像磁磚之類的，還有塑膠製品、管材、水泥、板材、金屬製品，但是這些資料庫都還沒有落實啦！如果按照工程會自己寫的，希望在今年年中開始就可以輔導廠商自願性地來填寫碳排放資料，你認為做得到嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：我覺得這個部分是配合環境部這邊的作業來推動，但是工程會這邊會從價值工程就開始切入，然後再來談碳排的問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
林委員俊憲：好，以目前這樣看起來，我是覺得你今年要推動，速度要快一點、要很加油啦！你現在根本不可能，1年至少有3萬件的工程，以我們目前的標準，至少有3萬件的工程要填報碳排放量，現在這些施作的廠商有這樣的能力嗎？有這樣的資訊嗎？看起來是完全沒有啦！而且廠商填報的數據對不對、正不正確，只有14家合格的查驗機構能夠進行查核，如果要這14家全部去查3萬件，大概也不可能達成，所以碳足跡認證的能力也嚴重不足。如果你們要推這種公共工程都要管控甚至要來申報它的碳足跡，那麼你們要跨部會以及提出相關的配套措施，希望工程會這邊能夠儘速跟環境部那邊做相關的聯繫，否則以目前的資料庫，如果今年就要開始推動的話，我認為根本來不及啦！好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
林委員俊憲：好，謝謝主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
林委員俊憲：主委，你對這個事情瞭不瞭解？你知不知道？ |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
吳主任委員澤成：瞭解。 |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
林委員俊憲：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
主席：林委員發言完畢，現在請魯明哲委員發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
254 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-23-2 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
李昆澤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
林沛祥 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
黃健豪 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
廖先翔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
徐富癸 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
林國成 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
林俊憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
魯明哲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
何欣純 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
陳素月 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
邱若華 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
游顥 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
蔡其昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
許智傑 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
211 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-03-04 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1130901 |
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1130901_00004 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告業務概況，並備質詢 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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好 謝謝主席本席邀請我們工程會吳主委請吳主委主委你好主委你好主委我們現在全國的列管閒置設施只有剩3件我看你的報告這樣寫恭喜以前都100多件那現在怎麼剩3件 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
31.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
48.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
其實公共設施閒置本來就不應該本來就不應該啊我舉個例子啦我們台南龜仁有一個公有市場啊二三樓啊那閒置了快30年了但是為什麼沒有在我們列管的名單裡面啊以前列管全國工程的欸列管的閒置設施大概都一覽百見齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
56.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
77.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
自從我們工程會改變了,會不會是因為你改變了認定的那個方式啊?不是。不是喔?不然都改過了?都解決了?以前齁,我覺得以前那麼多是因為啊,他們都要報到工程會來啦。由工程會一個審核委員的去審查。 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
79.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
79.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
以前是這樣產生的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
106.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
118.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
那後來我們明星結果﹖抱歉我沒有做起來,你看一下﹖數字都來自你工程會﹖你說現在媒體報導﹖後來我沒有亂挖﹖建築很多那時候應該不是你認內,102年,107年我現在是這樣子啦,就是說像我們地方就有一個公共市場閒置2、30年 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
135.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
144.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那面積很大喔我照片都拍給你看喔那為什麼沒有在列館裡面我認為是就是因為現在是不是閒置設施由地方政府自己認定啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
145.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
146.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
主任委員．林俊憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
175.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
199.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
就是說他縣市政府他自己先決定要不要報給你嘛那是數字怎麼會多 對不對我如果地方我當然就略管越少越好嘛看面子嘛 對不對啊所以當然報給你有借法捏報給你少那你成績數字當然就少啊你看你現在全國閒置設置只有3間這合理嗎這可能嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
201.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
219.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
這是不可能嘛那地方政府不報你當然就不知道啊啊因為你授權給他啊他設施要怎麼使用他自己不用 我知道啦他自己怎樣你懂我意思沒有啦所以喔我認為現在這個數字已經不符合實際狀況了啦應該是地方政府人不理你你都要補開嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
225.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
250.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那以前是我們工程會有一個委員會在審查你算不算閒置設施那你需不需要列管嘛那現在沒有這個工程會已經不做這樣審查了就直接丟給地方政府了所以這個建書就會變很少了啦我們對於地方政府有沒有報的實在我們也會抽查你現在只剩下抽查如果委員想這樣講那表示他不實在那我們抽查不確實我們會檢查那你就要去抽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
251.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
252.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我們會來加強抽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
281.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
310.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
對阿,你只剩這樣阿,所以你現在這個閒置奢侈的數字我覺得已經沒有意義了,對你齁我們現在今年阿,工程會要開始實施公共工程的簡單新規定齁尤其工程會的報告裡面說今年年終,年終應該算落尾吧就是要鼓勵自願性的填寫啦,我們醫藥社會公共工程都要填寫他的排碳的數據啦,廠商都自願性的揭露啦那現在這個資料庫你要趕快建立喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
311.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
334.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
工程會是不是說要自己建立自己的碳排放的資料庫目前看起來是沒有了才開始在規劃主要受理都在哪裡主要都在環境部嘛那環境部根本也還沒有做好我舉個例子給你看環境部的碳足跡資料庫他現在只有列30種類別 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
337.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
358.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
其實還差的啦,你知道嗎?我們公共工程會使用到的項目多得不得了啦那舉一個例子,它這個水泥啦水泥的這個碳排放數字還有2014年那年代的受理都很久了啦我認為連環境部的碳足跡資料庫都很不實在 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
359.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
386.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那麼現在我們如何來請廠商揭露就公共工程的施作的廠商他要填寫他的太盤這個我感覺你要推動這個一定要推動因為這個國際上的公約大家都要這樣推動啦但是你那個速度要快啦要不然那些廠商說你是要怎麼寫的我根本就沒有成一個參考的數字嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
387.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
405.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以要落實碳排放的這個機制第一個你們要跨部會要去談嘛你為了碳足跡資料庫他什麼時候可以建立那我們才開始要求別人嘛包括你工程會也要自己建立一個碳排放資料庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
406.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
435.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這是你說的吧?我不知道你自己收集資料還是要拿環境部的資料來 我不清楚啦那我這裡再舉個例子給你看啦你現在比如說環境部的有那個探足機的資訊網做公共工程他只列這幾項啦比如礦石啦還有窯業的製品可能像瓷磚之類的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
435.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
437.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我認為：你認為我做得到嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
463.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
463.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
目前這樣看起來齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
480.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
506.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我是覺得你今年你今年要推動啊要很要速度要趕快的要很加油啦你現在根本不可能啦一年至少有三萬件的工程以我目前的標準啦至少有三萬件的工程你要填爆碳排放量現在這些現在現在施作的廠商他有這樣的能力嗎他有這樣的資訊嗎看起來看起來是完全沒有啦而且啊能夠進行查核廠商填放的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
507.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
507.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
﹚林俊憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
533.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
557.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那麼你這個跨部會之間的以及相關的配套措施啊公共工程會這邊希望能夠啊競速啦永遠或者要跟環境部那邊要做相關的一個聯繫啦或者以目前的資料庫你今年就要開始推動的話我認為根本來不及啦好不好好謝謝主委主委你對這個事情了不了解啊你知不知道了解 |