| IVOD_ID |
149151 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149151 |
| 日期 |
2024-02-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-1-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期第2次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-02-27T15:17:56+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-02-27T15:49:02+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:31:06 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ee9543ba39e9681049e55fb71d765ef04c3dd4484df4233ff8ba9b0039caa7a6b6d5a35e119f76195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林國成 |
| 委員發言時間 |
15:17:56 - 15:49:02 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-02-27T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。
二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。
三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。） |
| gazette.lineno |
239 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
林委員國成：（15時17分）謝謝主席。我要請行政院陳院長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請陳院長備詢。 |
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陳院長建仁：林委員午安，恭喜你當選。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
林委員國成：院長，其實本席第一次跟你質詢，所以我一定要把我的個性讓你瞭解一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
陳院長建仁：好，請。 |
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林委員國成：因為本席過去在從政質詢的時候，我最在乎的就是不喜歡答非所問，但是請你放心，我一定用理性跟務實的態度來問政，所以請院長特別放心。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
陳院長建仁：我也會理性務實，我也會。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
林委員國成：另外，看到報紙說院長要連任嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
陳院長建仁：沒這回事。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
林委員國成：首先，真的在我本身來講，對於你在科學家、在學者之間，我確實對於你學者的風範，我是非常尊重。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
陳院長建仁：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
林委員國成：但是我不希望你當了官員以後，就會答非所問，這一點我期許…… |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
陳院長建仁：我沒有答非所問，我不會。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
林委員國成：我期許院長能夠針對問題來答問題，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
陳院長建仁：好，我針對問題來回答。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
林委員國成：院長，我冒昧請教你一個問題，我今天要跟你談的是勞保年金破產的問題，這個問題當然看起來對立的機會不會很大，但是探討的價值，絕對是一定要探討的。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
陳院長建仁：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
林委員國成：所以院長，我冒昧請教你，到底我們所有勞工投保的人數為何？現在在臺灣被保險人有多少？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
陳院長建仁：1,050。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
許部長銘春：1,050萬。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
陳院長建仁：對啦，1,050萬。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
林委員國成：另外一點，勞工有兩種，請問院長，你知道是哪兩種嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
陳院長建仁：一個就是一般的勞工，一個就是職業勞工。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
林委員國成：是這兩種。勞保局……我要請教勞保的保險條例，到底它是社會保險或者商業保險？我必須要先釐清以後才有辦法再問下去。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
陳院長建仁：社會保險。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
林委員國成：好。院長，其實看起來你是學者專家出身，但是對於勞工的問題，基本上你還是瞭解得非常多，所以這一點，我要代表勞工特別謝謝你。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
陳院長建仁：因為勞保…… |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
林委員國成：你瞭解勞工。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
陳院長建仁：委員，我在當副總統的時候，勞保年金改革也是其中的一個重點。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
林委員國成：好，但是現在勞工的心聲，我必須要跟院長投訴。你知道一天到晚……勞工繳錢你們說要破產，我們將心比心，你身為勞工的心情，你會感覺……有什麼看法？ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
陳院長建仁：我想，如果大家都一直在傳會破產，當然勞工就會很恐慌、很擔心，但是我們一再地跟所有的勞工講，勞保是國家辦的社會保險，對勞工有最好的保障，政府會負最後的給付責任，所以勞工放心，但是並不表示我們講這樣的話，財務就會健全。財務之所以會不健全，最主要的就是當時勞保法律通過的時候，我們把給付率定得太高。委員，你是專家，我不敢班門弄斧。因為它定得太高，當時那個法通過的時候，8年就破產了，所以我們也要讓勞工知道，當時定的這個勞保的法律並不是健全的。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
林委員國成：院長你講這些，原則性我是同意，但是解決問題一定要瞭解它真正的問題在哪裡。其實，我要問院長一句話，到底勞保要破產是政府的事，或者勞工的事？ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
陳院長建仁：政府要破產，我想這個制度當然是很重要，當時我們在做勞保年金改革規劃的時候，第一個當然就是採計的年數，第二個就是給付率是多少，第三個就是費率是多少。把這些東西都整體考量才能夠做可以永續的、合理的、健全的勞保制度。當然這裡面有一個很重要的部分，既然對於低收入的這些勞工，我們要給他很好的樓地板的保護，政府也一定要有政府補貼的經費進來，所以現在大概有這四項：政府的挹注、撥補，然後採計的年數，然後是費率跟給付率嘛！這四項一定要連動啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
林委員國成：院長，你講這些原則性都是對的啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
陳院長建仁：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
林委員國成：但是真正的原因要把它找出來。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
陳院長建仁：委員…… |
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林委員國成：所以我要從頭把歷史……其實這個歷史一定要瞭解才有辦法去解決問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
陳院長建仁：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
林委員國成：我在乎的是身為一個勞工，我規規矩矩繳了保費，但是政府動不動就說它要破產，這對勞工的心裡來說是非常沉重的。院長，你聽我說完，實際上來講，政府動不動去做這些事，基本上我真的要跟院長建議，勞保破產的問題不是勞工的責任，是政府的責任。所以…… |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
陳院長建仁：委員，我可以講一句話嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
林委員國成：來來來，院長…… |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
陳院長建仁：我可以講一下嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
林委員國成：不是，我先跟你報告…… |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
陳院長建仁：我跟委員報告一下，政府從來都沒有說過勞保會破產。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
林委員國成：有啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
陳院長建仁：政府只有說一定會負最後的給付責任。破產之說，是因為外界看到我們的收入與支出不平衡，於是就有很多媒體寫出heading，下標說會破產，我們從來沒有說會破產。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
林委員國成：好啦！院長…… |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
陳院長建仁：我跟你說實在話就是這樣。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
林委員國成：是、是，我跟你說，有一些事情要讓你瞭解…… |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
陳院長建仁：好，多謝…… |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
林委員國成：你才能瞭解真正的問題…… |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
陳院長建仁：好，我來聆聽。 |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
林委員國成：我為什麼會堅持政府經營不善不能把責任全部推給勞工…… |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
陳院長建仁：我同意。 |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
林委員國成：這一點我想院長你同意吧！ |
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陳院長建仁：我同意。 |
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林委員國成：同意喔！我們現在就是要先瞭解一下啦！我要跟院長報告，部長，你也做參考，其實這些真正的問題從來都沒有揭發出來，立法院將近30年，從來沒有勞工身分的人站上質詢臺，所以我必須要讓院長及部長瞭解…… |
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陳院長建仁：好，我聆聽你的高見。 |
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林委員國成：我想這個歷史大家很清楚，第一個，49年成立，到57年修正，到59年改名為臺閩地區，最重要的在這裡，最重要的在哪裡？85年（1996年）的時候我們臺灣省政府承辦這些勞保，但是這些勞保到最後是我們中央來承接，在這裡。院長，我要跟你請教一下，還有部長，請問你們，我們當初承接的時候到底虧損有多少？ |
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陳院長建仁：我不太清楚，這是1996年…… |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
林委員國成：部長，你知道嗎？部長，承接的時候。本來是臺灣省政府管轄的臺閩地區勞保局，最後是我們中央勞委會承接這個業務，所以改屬我們中央政府，也就是我們勞動部的前身──勞委會，所以我請問85年開始承接起來的時候虧損有多少？ |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
許部長銘春：報告委員，是不是有虧損或者虧損多少，這部分我還要進一步釐清。 |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
林委員國成：所以我坦白講，剛剛我問過院長，到底我們是社會保險或者商業保險？其實院長講得很清楚，勞保本來就是社會保險…… |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
陳院長建仁：是。 |
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林委員國成：其實那個時候凍省之外，把臺閩地區勞保局所有的經費移到中央來的時候是沒有精算的，到底虧損有多少？我告訴院長，那個時候的勞保費率只有6.5%，其實從84年把健保醫療的部分撥到中央政府健保局以後是沒有什麼虧錢的，真正虧錢虧在哪邊？是在臺閩地區那個6.5%，它醫療給付各項保障通通有，但是現在是12%，加上健保的5.71%，快20%耶！所以勞工繳錢是沒有減少的，也就是勞工繳的多，領的少，以前是繳的少，領的多，所以為什麼勞工現在都默默不說話？在心裡面生悶氣，政府又動不動就說勞保要倒掉。拜託！院長，我要跟你報告，我說實在的，今天勞保真的是勞工的養老本及棺材本，所以不要動不動就這樣！院長，你在做事情，相較過去的院長，跟你在對白、在質詢的時候，確實你在整個問題的瞭解度是夠的，所以我今天跟行家講話，我特別說，真正的、所有問題就是你們在承接時的大洞，多少錢的虧損你們根本不知道嘛！你們只承接出來，但是你不曉得勞保真正的黑洞就在這個部分，也就是49年到84年那個時候的大黑洞，並非84年以後把健保分出去的時候，那個時候勞保接下來是沒有什麼虧損的，所以你不能最後在85年以後用商業保險的清算方式去做計算，這個對勞工是不公平的。院長，我跟你報告之後，你再表達你的意見。 |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
陳院長建仁：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
林委員國成：第二個，當初拿了勞保基金去買股票，那不用我跟你說，部長，你好好去查一下，政策護盤，虧錢是勞工的事嗎？是你政府要負責耶！結果現在不是，把所有責任推給勞工，這樣不公平啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
陳院長建仁：沒人推給勞工啦！沒有啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
林委員國成：院長，你要聽我的心聲，代替1,050萬的勞工。 |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
陳院長建仁：好，我認真聆聽。 |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
林委員國成：這個聲音要出來嘛！你才去做決定。 |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
陳院長建仁：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
林委員國成：不是說給你上課，不是，絕對不是。 |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
陳院長建仁：沒關係，上課我也認真聽。 |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
林委員國成：這是勞工多年來的心聲，透過今天有這個機會，我要替一千多萬的勞工把心聲講出來。 |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
陳院長建仁：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
林委員國成：還有一點，勞保基金過去確實在整個繳的多、領的少的情況之下，這個基金是隨便亂用的，我要跟院長投訴，甚至於拿勞保基金去做建設基金，為什麼？像台電當初沒有錢做建設的時候，南電北送，所有的電塔是拿勞保基金去做，做建設無所謂，最不能原諒的就是什麼？現在我舉兩個例子，第一，台開，這個案子部長回去查看看，向勞保基金借了上百億，到去年才還掉，拜託，你看看勞保基金可以這樣用嗎？所以院長，我要跟你報告，為什麼會說這是政府的責任？也就是財政紀律監督不夠周全，產生今天勞保虧損連連，說實在的，政府要負起責任。所以我要向院長報告，就是剛才我跟你投訴的這些，第一個，赤字你們沒有精算；第二個，勞保基金的財政紀律也不健全，說護盤就護盤，結果輸了都是勞工的事…… |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
許部長銘春：沒有護盤。 |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
林委員國成：我特別跟院長報告，因為這些都是我有參與的，參與的時候，我覺得這樣是不好，所以今天勞保的虧損絕對不是84年健保撥出去，醫療撥出去以後，勞保是沒有什麼虧損的。但是不管怎麼樣，我覺得不管是現在的政府或前政府，當然你們要概括承受，我們知道，可是我很不服氣的就是，明明是政府經營不善、管理不得當，為什麼所有責任要勞工來扛呢？這點是對勞工不公平，院長，我說這些都有憑有據，院長，我當然希望你繼續連任，你好好督促勞動部，好好把這個事情查清楚，查個水落石出，到底是勞工的問題還是政府的問題，我的認知是政府要負責任，但是今天政府經營不善，不能把所有責任怪到勞工身上，所以院長，我剛才跟你說這些事情，我不曉得你對這些有什麼看法。 |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
陳院長建仁：謝謝委員，你給我上了一課，讓我知道勞工保險成立的沿革，還有對於勞保黑洞你認為的看法。我在這裡做三點的說明，第一點，政府從來沒有認為勞保的問題是要勞工來負責，而政府都沒有責任，這個我完全不同意，因為實際上我剛才講過，政府會負最後給付的責任。第二個，你剛才說到1996年那個時候沒有黑洞，但是你也提到沒有精算，如果沒有精算，實際上那一些人都在還年輕的時候加入保險，到了1996年他領的錢少，當然他還夠，因為大部分的人都還在工作，可是如果你精算下來，也許到1996年的時候，推算到這一些還在工作的人以後退休要領勞保的時候，搞不好那個時候就已經是黑洞了，這是第二個我的想法。第三個，我也完全同意你的意見，就是勞保基金應該要有很好的投資，不能夠有隨意的借貸。但是就我個人所知，我們並沒有隨便去做政策的護航，我們有一個勞保基金的管理委員會在進行，這個部分更詳細的情況，可能部長比較清楚…… |
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林委員國成：院長，我打岔一下，我不是說你現在，我現在是把以前的歷史…… |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
陳院長建仁：是以前哦？這樣我瞭解。所以你說到要讓勞工負責，我覺得不應該讓勞工負責，這我完全同意，政府應該要做事。 |
| gazette.blocks[83][0] |
林委員國成：院長，我坦白跟你講，我現在指責的並非是現在在執政的，從84年以後，當然國、民兩黨都有在執政，現在不是你的責任問題，而是要把問題查清楚，第一，如果今天勞工是繳費不足，當然大家來想辦法嘛！但事實上不是這樣，因為現在勞工是一頭牛扒兩層皮，因為健保他也要繳，勞保他也要繳，然而事實上真正虧損的部分是84年以前的，那時候醫療跟勞保統統都是一張單子，當然這個部分確實是虧損，那個時候我問你有沒有精算？你們也沒有啊！我不曉得你們這樣接起來，那個是大洞，那個時候的政府當然要負責任，我沒有講現在的政府，對於現在的政府，我坦白講，你要我讚賞，我可以讚賞，第一，做的最好的是陳菊院長，那個時候吃勞工的東西就是占勞工便宜的錢，最後他在任內全部都退還，舉例，第一，15年以下不能請領退休給付，結果他就老了、他就走了，最後陳菊發回。第二，許銘春部長，他是公道的，為什麼？在前兩年疫情最嚴重的時候，他去爭取無一定雇主的職業勞工可以紓困這些，所以我沒有怪你，但是我們要把問題釐清楚，今天不是勞工的問題，是政府的問題，是當初你們沒有精算，而現在產生這些虧損，把所有責任推給勞工，一定要多繳保費、要少領、要改革，這些東西對勞工是不公平的。院長，我向你投訴的是這個問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[84][0] |
陳院長建仁：我有聽進去。 |
| gazette.blocks[85][0] |
林委員國成：所以你剛才有講過，當然，我還是肯定你們陸陸續續撥了兩千多億進來，這個是確確實實你們都有在做的，這個我們要高度肯定，才有辦法挹注現在基本的水平。另外…… |
| gazette.blocks[86][0] |
陳院長建仁：委員，我再補充一句，其實勞保未來給付的額度之所以會大，另外一個很重要的就是從民國85年開始，我們的平均壽命在這30年來增加得很厲害，相信你很清楚，你是專家嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[87][0] |
林委員國成：院長，這個可以來研究。 |
| gazette.blocks[88][0] |
陳院長建仁：對嘛！人口老化，給付的…… |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
林委員國成：正常的增加、負減，都可以大家來談，這勞工不是一成不變，如果是他們的責任，他們該繳的就繳，但是一味的把全部責任都歸在勞工上面…… |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
陳院長建仁：不合理。 |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
林委員國成：這個我不贊同。 |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
陳院長建仁：我也不贊同。 |
| gazette.blocks[93][0] |
林委員國成：所以院長，我跟你說，你剛剛有說過撥補要繼續，另外一個我還是比較在乎的，跟院長報告，你講的就是要入法啦！確定給付，讓勞工放心，院長贊成這一點嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[94][0] |
陳院長建仁：我贊成啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[95][0] |
林委員國成：入法這個部分，本席也會為了這個事，把它修改、把它入法，這樣的話，勞工的問題不會人心惶惶，不會我現在繳錢，然後改天你跟我說要倒，這樣誰願意去繳錢？所以這個部分我還是希望，院長你是一個我很尊重的學者，我不希望就這樣講一講，我希望你連任…… |
| gazette.blocks[96][0] |
陳院長建仁：不要啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[97][0] |
林委員國成：連任以後才有辦法去解決這個問題。因為我今天把所有歷史都已經跟院長報告了，所以這個部分我要拜託你責成部長，特別把它查清楚該是誰的責任、把它釐清楚，不要一天到晚怪1,100萬的勞工繳不夠，這對勞工不公平，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[98][0] |
陳院長建仁：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[99][0] |
林委員國成：現在要再來跟你談最簡單的一個問題──消防員組工會。主席，拜託內政部長上來一下，時間要暫停吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[100][0] |
林部長右昌：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[101][0] |
林委員國成：院長，這個當然是燙手山芋，但是我們什麼東西都不要檢討。為什麼消防員要組工會？其實組工會很簡單，真的是很簡單！這十年來死了43個消防員，是你們沒有在訓練或者問題出在哪邊？坦白跟你講，組工會最大的目的就是結社權，你們同意組協會，有給他結社權了嘛！另外一個就是協商權，你們也給了，但給的是一半，協商在工會法裡面規定有罰則，協會裡面那些協商沒有罰則，一點約束力都沒有。院長，我跟你說，這就是做一半，沒用！最主要是罷工權，說實在，本席也反對消防人員罷工，因為養兵千日用在一時，所以罷工權當然也不能適用。但是我建議院長重新再盤點，讓各單位好好去研究一下，讓他組工會，不要把他當作洪水猛獸，不用這麼緊張。教師工會也沒有罷工權，可是他們就做得很好，所以可以比照教師工會，讓這些消防員去組工會，院長針對這個問題不必覺得可怕。你的看法怎麼樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[102][0] |
陳院長建仁：因為這裡面有一個很重要的是，消防員本身是公務員，教師不是每一個都是公務員。第二個就是公務員現在也有你剛剛說過的可以組協會，而協會裡面可以有多少的諮商權等等，可以再來修法。我們在上一個會期已經提出一個法案，但是法案因為屆期不續審，我們會再送來大院聽取委員的意見，朝野一起來修，把它修得更好。至於工會比較好，還是協會比較好，其實也要來聽消防人員、消防弟兄的心聲。 |
| gazette.blocks[103][0] |
林委員國成：沒有，他們已經這樣…… |
| gazette.blocks[104][0] |
陳院長建仁：因為…… |
| gazette.blocks[105][0] |
林委員國成：院長，我跟你報告，他們認為是組工會…… |
| gazette.blocks[106][0] |
陳院長建仁：那是一部分的人而已。 |
| gazette.blocks[107][0] |
林委員國成：他們認為組工會，但是我跟你說不要怕！ |
| gazette.blocks[108][0] |
陳院長建仁：我們會來商量。 |
| gazette.blocks[109][0] |
林委員國成：因為他們需要的是職業安全法。 |
| gazette.blocks[110][0] |
陳院長建仁：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[111][0] |
林委員國成：只要組工會，他就適用職業安全法。部長，但是我聽說內政部都不同意。 |
| gazette.blocks[112][0] |
林部長右昌：我跟委員報告一下。基本上，你談的這是兩件事情，第一個是…… |
| gazette.blocks[113][0] |
林委員國成：怎麼會是兩件事呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[114][0] |
林部長右昌：這是兩件事情，完全兩件。第一個是消防人員依照憲法的規定，國家的公務員必須經過國家考試，消防員的身分是公務人員，但…… |
| gazette.blocks[115][0] |
林委員國成：公務人員，所以部長…… |
| gazette.blocks[116][0] |
林部長右昌：但老師並不是。 |
| gazette.blocks[117][0] |
林委員國成：部長，公務人員兼具勞工身分的一大堆啦！你不要跟我講這個。 |
| gazette.blocks[118][0] |
林部長右昌：沒有！這是兩件事情。 |
| gazette.blocks[119][0] |
林委員國成：怎麼會是兩件事情呢？部長，我不跟你爭辯這個。 |
| gazette.blocks[120][0] |
林部長右昌：勞工…… |
| gazette.blocks[121][0] |
林委員國成：我時間有限。公務人員兼具勞工身分的一大堆，只是法令要不要解套而已！所以我坦白跟你說，部長，沒錯，你從基層上來，但針對這點，我就覺得你在基層都是白待的，說實在的，組工會沒有那麼可怕，但是我同意警消要限制罷工權，但這還有其他的，主要是要入職業安全法嘛！因為現在那個是專業訓練，而職業安全法是有罰則的，是有法令的，所以他們現在缺乏的是職業安全法對他們的保障，你要放在協會裡面，根本就不能放嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[122][0] |
陳院長建仁：沒有啦！職業安全法的部分，就是政府可以把消防人員職業安全的部分規定在消防法裡面，這也是另外一個作法，我們本來就有想在消防法裡修有關他們的職業安全部分，當然，委員跟我們有不同的見解，你說要有工會才能適用職業安全法，但我們是要在規定裡加進去他們職業安全的保障，這是我們的想法。 |
| gazette.blocks[123][0] |
林委員國成：好啦！院長，原則性我同意啦！但是我坦白跟你講，外行的話我是不愛聽啦！我坦白跟你講，職業安全法限定公務人員兼具勞工身分是可以適用，主要是你用那個協會，那個協會就是社會團體，我跟你說，那個不是專法啦，所以我跟你說，你如果要講這個…… |
| gazette.blocks[124][0] |
陳院長建仁：我們用消防法。 |
| gazette.blocks[125][0] |
林委員國成：對啦！如果你們要講這個，沒有關係，你們既然有這樣做，我希望部長跟勞動部好好商量一下，這個問題我會繼續追，我會繼續追，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[125][1] |
接著請法務部。 |
| gazette.blocks[126][0] |
主席：請法務部部長備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[127][0] |
林委員國成：還有唐鳳唐部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[128][0] |
陳院長建仁：數位部。 |
| gazette.blocks[129][0] |
主席：請數位部部長備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[130][0] |
林委員國成：院長，今天我們院裡面有一個打詐的公聽會，現在打詐，說實在的，因為很多同仁都有很多意見，現在有3萬多件，詐騙金額八十幾億元，說實在，這是貽笑國際啦！貽笑國際！ |
| gazette.blocks[131][0] |
陳院長建仁：不會啦！我說不會的原因是，現在有一個組織、國際組織，他們有統計全世界的詐騙，如果說詐騙最嚴重的國家，其實就是紐西蘭、新加坡、美國這些國家，我們臺灣是有嚴重，我完全承認，但不是說貽笑國際，我覺得這樣的說法我不太能接受，我是覺得這是一個國際性的問題，我們一定要來解決，這個我同意。 |
| gazette.blocks[132][0] |
林委員國成：來，唐部長，你對這個有什麼看法？簡單就好了。 |
| gazette.blocks[133][0] |
唐部長鳳：是，我們覺得源頭防制是特別重要，包含我們透過電子簽章法，很快會送到貴院，儘可能的讓這種假冒帳號或者假冒名人的狀況可以有所緩解。 |
| gazette.blocks[134][0] |
林委員國成：好，那個蔡部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[135][0] |
蔡部長清祥：我們檢察官、警察跟調查局的人員，大家都很認真在打拚、在打詐。 |
| gazette.blocks[136][0] |
林委員國成：不是啦！你看要怎麼做啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[137][0] |
蔡部長清祥：我們會再結合大家共同想辦法來努力。 |
| gazette.blocks[138][0] |
陳院長建仁：委員，因為時間關係，我會請同仁把我們打詐的作法以書面向委員簡單報告。 |
| gazette.blocks[139][0] |
林委員國成：好啦！謝謝院長！謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[140][0] |
主席：謝謝林委員國成的質詢，謝謝陳院長的答詢，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[140][1] |
接下來請登記第17號蔡委員其昌質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
466 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
院會-11-1-2 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
韓國瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
吳秉叡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
丁學忠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
林岱樺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
陳雪生 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
徐富癸 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
林國成 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
蔡其昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
萬美玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
黃秀芳 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
呂玉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
371 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-02-27 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1130401 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1130401_00011 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[1] |
1130401_00012 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
施政質詢
對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─ |
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1864.26284375 |
| transcript.pyannote[522].speaker |
SPEAKER_00 |
| transcript.pyannote[522].start |
1864.33034375 |
| transcript.pyannote[522].end |
1865.95034375 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
25.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
29.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
其實本席第一次跟你在對質詢所以我特別一定要把我的個性 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
49.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
75.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
讓你了解一下因為本席過去在從政執行的時候我最在乎的就是不喜歡拔揮手問但是請你放心我一定用理性跟務實的態度來問政所以請院長特別放心另外院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
77.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
102.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
看到報紙說你要連任嘛首先真的在我本身來講對於你在科學家在寫者之間我確實對於你寫者的風範我是非常尊重但是我不希望你當了官員以後就會答回所問這一點我期許我沒有答回所問燕子啊我不會能夠針對問題來答我針對問題回答好燕子啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
106.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
130.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
我冒昧的請教你一個問題我今天要跟你談的是勞保年金破產的問題這個問題當然看起來對立的機會不會很大但是探討的價值絕對是一定要探討的所以院長我冒昧請教你 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
131.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
144.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
到底我們所有勞工他投保的人數現在在臺灣被保險人有多少?一千零五十萬。另外一點我再請教院長勞工有兩種 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
153.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
162.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
請問院長你知道哪兩種嗎?一個就是一般的勞工一個就是那個職業勞工這兩種那勞保局我要請教勞保的保險條例到底他是社會保險或者商業保險? |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
176.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
197.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我必須要先釐清以後才有辦法再問下去社會保險社會保險好院長其實看起來你是寫者專家出身但是對於勞工的問題基本上你還是瞭解的非常多這一點我代表勞工我要特別謝謝你瞭解勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
200.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
228.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
委員那個勞保年金改革我在當副總統的時候也是其中的一個重點但是現在勞工的新生我必須要跟院長來做投訴你知道一天到晚勞工繳錢你們說要破產請問我們將心比心你身為勞工的心情你會感覺有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
228.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
251.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我想如果大家都一直在傳會破產當然你勞工就會很恐慌很擔心但是我們一再的跟所有的勞工來講勞保是國家辦的社會保險所以對勞工有最好的保障政府會負最後的幾負責任所以勞工放心但是並不表示我們講這樣的話財務就會健全 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
253.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
254.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
議長,你講這些,原則性我是同意。 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
282.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
297.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
但是任何解決問題一定要了解它真正的問題在哪裡。其實我要問院長一句話到底勞保要破產是政府的事或者勞工的事 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
299.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
316.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
政府要破產,我想這個制度當然是很重要。當時我們在做勞保年金改革規劃的時候,第一個當然就是採集的年數,第二個就是這個給付率是多少,第三個就是費率是多少。 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
316.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
343.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那這些東西都要整體來考量的時候才能夠做一個可以永續的合理的勞保的健全的情況那當然這裡面有一個很重要的部分就是既然我們對於這個低收入的這些勞工要給他很好的奪地板的保護所以政府也一定要有政府這個補貼的經費進來所以現在大概有這四項政府的補助、撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
345.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
370.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
然後呢這個採集的年數然後費率跟那個給付率嘛。這四項一定要連動啦。議長你講這些原則性都是對的啦。是。但是真正的原因要把它找出來。所以我要從頭把歷史啊也就是看來泡泡你來。即使這個歷史一定要了解才有辦法去解決問題。是。 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
372.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
400.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我在乎的是身為一個勞工然後我規規矩矩繳了保惠動不動政府就說他要破產這對勞工的心理是非常沉重的政府動不動去做這些事基本上我真的要跟院長建議勞工破產的問題不是勞工的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
400.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
401.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
是政府的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
402.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
409.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我可以講一句話嗎?我可以講一下嗎?我幫委員報告一下政府從來都沒有說過勞保會破產政府只說一定會負最後的幾戶責任那個破產是因為看到我們的收入和支出不平衡的時候就很多很多媒體的heading寫出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
431.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
432.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我們現在就是要先了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
459.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
484.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我必須向議長報告,保證你做參考其實這些真正的問題從來都沒有去把它揭發出來但是在立法院也從來二十幾年將近三十年沒有勞工身份的人站上執行台所以我必須要向議長保證給你了解我想這個歷史大家很清楚來第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
485.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
511.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
四十九年成立至現在五十七年改建至五十九年把臺民地區最重要在這裡喔!最重要在這裡!八十五年1996年的時候我們臺灣省政府都承辦這些勞保但是這些勞保到最後是我們中央來承接在這裡喔一定有 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
512.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
523.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我要向你請教一下,我們當初還有部長,請問你們當初承接的時候,到底虧損有多少?我沒想清楚,這是1996年 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
527.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
547.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
曾接的時候本來是臺灣省政府管轄的臺民地區的勞保局那最後是我們中央勞委會曾接起來這個業務所以改屬我們中央政府也是我們勞動部的前身勞委會所以我請問85年開始的時候曾接起來請問那個時候虧損有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
557.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
561.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
報告委員是不是有虧損或者虧損多少這部分我要進一步釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
562.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
588.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
所以我坦白講嘛剛剛我問過院長到底我們是社會保險或者商業保險其實院長講得很清楚勞保本來就是社會保險其實那個時候動神之外把臺灣臺民地區勞保局所有的經費移到中央來的時候那個時候是沒有精算的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
589.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
617.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
到底虧損有多少我告訴院長那個時候的勞保匯率只有6.5現在的匯率把所有84年把健保醫療的部分撥到中央政府健保局的時候那個時候其實從以後84年以後是沒有什麼虧錢的真正虧錢虧在哪邊是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
619.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
634.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
臺民地區那個6.5%結果他醫療給付各項保障通通有但是現在是12%加上健保的5.71%20%所以勞工繳錢是沒有減少的 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
640.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
662.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
也就是勞工繳得多領得少以前是繳得少領得多所以為什麼勞工現在都常常不講話常常不講話在心裡面生悶氣政府動不動就說勞保要倒掉拜託議長我要跟你報告我說實在的今天這些事 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
664.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
683.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
勞保真的是勞工的養老本跟他的棺材本所以不要動不動就這樣我希望院長你在做事情你比過去的院長那當然跟你在對白在執行的時候確實你在整個問題的了解度是夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
684.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
700.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
所以我今天跟行家要講話我特別真正的所有問題就是你們在承接的時候那個時候的洞大洞根本多少多少錢的虧損你們根本不知道嘛你們只承接出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
701.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
725.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
曾接出來但是你不曉得真正勞保的黑洞就在這個部分也就是49年到84年那個時候的大黑洞並非84年以後健保把它分出去的時候那個時候勞保接下來是沒有什麼虧損的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
726.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
755.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
所以你不能最後85年以後用商業保險的計算清算方式去做計算那這個是對勞工是不公平的還有一條我現在在跟你報告之後你才表達一個意見我跟你講你看喔第二個當初拿了勞保基金去買股票那不用我跟你講不對你好好去查一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
757.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
769.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
好好去查一下,政策復盤,虧錢是勞工的事嗎?是你政府要負責欸,結果現在不是把所有責任推給勞工,這樣不公平啦。沒有人推給勞工啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
773.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
774.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
所以,第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
803.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
824.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
還有一點老保基金過去確實在整個繳得多領得少的情況之下這個基金是隨便亂用甚至於我要跟院長投訴甚至於拿老保基金去做建設基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
826.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
845.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
為什麼像臺電當初沒有錢做建設的時候南電北送所有那個電塔是拿勞保基金去做這個那做建設無所謂最不能原諒的就是什麼現在我舉兩個例子一、臺開 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
849.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
854.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這個案子沒中你回去查看看向勞保基金借了上百億請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
857.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
881.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
到去年才還掉欸拜託欸你看看勞保基金可以這樣用嗎?所以為什麼?一定 我要跟你報告為什麼會說這是政府的責任也就是財政紀律啊不夠監督周前產生今天勞保的虧損連連說實在的政府要負起責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
881.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
884.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我特別跟院長報告因為這些都是我是有參與的 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
909.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
924.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那參議的時候我覺得這樣是不好所以今天勞保的虧損絕對不是84年健保撥出去醫療撥出去了以後勞保是沒有什麼虧損的 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
926.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
947.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
但是我不管怎麼樣我覺得這是不管是現在的政府或前政府當然你們要概括承受我們知道可是我很不服氣的就是為什麼明明是政府經營不善管理不得當那為什麼把所有責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
948.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
972.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
這個要勞工來扛勒,所以這一點是對勞工不公平。所以議長,我講這些都有憑有據喔。我希望院長,我當然希望你繼續連任。你好好督促勞動部,好好把這個事情查清楚。這水落石出嘛。到底是勞工的問題還是政府的問題。我的認知 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
973.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
978.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
謝謝委員你給我上了一課讓我知道勞工保險成立的嚴格還有勞保黑洞的你認為的看法我在這裡做三點的說明第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1003.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1029.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
政府從來沒有認為這個勞保的問題是要勞工來負責而是政府都沒有責任這個我完全不同意因為呢實際上我剛才講過政府會負最後幾戶的責任第二個你剛才說到1996年的時候呢那個時候沒有黑洞但是你也提到沒有精算那如果沒有精算的時候呢實際上那一些人都還在年輕的時候加入保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1030.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1057.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那到了96年他領的錢少當然他還夠嘛因為還大部分的人還在工作可是如果你精算下來的時候也許到96年的時候推算到這一些還在工作的人以後退休要領勞保的時候搞不好那個時候就已經是黑洞了啦那這是第二個我的想法第三個我也完全同意你的意見就是說勞保基金應該要有很好的這個投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1058.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1061.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我不是說你現在我現在是把以前的歷史我現在我要坦白跟你講啦所以說你要讓勞工負債 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1085.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1091.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我現在指責的並非是我們現在在執政這個從84年以後那當然國民兩黨都有在執政現在不是你的責任問題而是要把問題查清楚第一 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1108.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1131.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
如果今天勞工是繳費不足,那當然大家來想辦法嘛。那事實上不是這樣。因為齁,現在勞工啊,這下午放兩年賠了啦。因為健保他也要繳,勞保他也要繳。事實上真正虧損的部分是84年以前是 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1133.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1161.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
醫療跟勞保通通都是一張單子那當然這個部分確實是虧損那那個時候我問你有沒有精算你們也沒有啊那我不曉得說你們這樣接起來那那個是大動嘛那那個時候的政府當然要負責任我現在沒有講現在的政府現在的政府我坦白跟你講你要我讚賞我可以讚賞第一做得最好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1162.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1186.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
是陳菊院長。那個時候對勞工,吃勞工的東西就是占勞工便宜的錢,最後他任內全部都退還。第一,舉例,15年以下不能成熟退休給付,結果他就老了,他就走了,最後陳菊花完一年。第二,許民春部長, |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1187.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1202.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
他是公道的為什麼在前兩年疫情最嚴重的時候他去爭取不一定雇主的職業勞工可以紓困這些所以我們又沒怪你但是我們要把問題理清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1202.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1220.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
今天不是勞工的問題是政府的問題是當時你們沒有精算而現在產生這些虧損把所有責任推給勞工一定要多繳保費要掃零要什麼樣要改革這些東西對勞工是不公平一定 我跟你投訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1221.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1225.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
所以你剛才有講過當然我還是肯定你們陸陸續續撥了兩千多億進來這個確確實實你們都有在做你們有在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1237.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1256.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
這個我們要高度肯定才有辦法抑制現在基本的水平。那另外一個...委員我再補充一下好不好?其實這個勞保那個未來支付的額度會大另外一個很重要的就是因為你民國85年開始我們的平均壽命在這30年以來漸減到很厲害了 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1262.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1264.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
正常的增加、復減都可以大家來打。這勞工不是一窮不變的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1277.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1297.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
是他們的責任,他們該繳的就繳,但是一味的全部責任歸在勞工上面,這個我不贊同。所以一定我跟你說,你剛才有講過撥補要繼續,另外一個我還是比較在乎的,就是跟院長報告,你講的就是要入華啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1298.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1321.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
確定幾乎乎勞工放心。這點一定,你贊成嗎?我贊成啊。好,入閥這個部分本席也會為了這個事把它修改,把它入閥。這樣的話勞工的問題他不會人心惶惶。我現在矯情,連天你跟我說要倒,誰願意去繳錢?所以這個部分我還是希望,我還是希望,院長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1322.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1340.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
你是一個我真正的學者出身。我不希望這樣公開的。我希望你連任。連任以後才有辦法去解決這個問題。因為我今天把所有歷史都已經跟院長報告了嘛。我所以希望一定 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1341.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1364.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
這個部分我要拜託你責成部長 特別去把他查清楚該是誰的責任 把他理清楚不要一天到晚就要怪他一千、一百萬的勞工 你們都搞不好 這是對勞工不公平好不好 一定好啊現在要再來跟你談最簡單的就是 談最簡單的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1367.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1387.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
消防員組工會來來來主席拜託內政部長閃來一下阿時間要暫停吧委員好一六 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1389.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1407.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
這個當然是探訪生意但是我們什麼東西都不要檢討為什麼為什麼消防員他要組工會其實組工會很簡單嘛他真的是很簡單不要這10年來一定有這10年來是43個 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1410.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1424.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那問題在哪邊是你們設計你們沒有在訓練或者問題出在哪邊其實坦白跟你講主公會或者主公會最大的目的就是結社前你們也協會也有給他結社前 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1426.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1455.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
另外一個就是那個還有協商錢。你們也給了,但是給的是給一半。協商真正公會法裡面規定是有罰則。你們協會裡面那些協商是沒有罰則。一點那個約束力都沒有。所以一定,我告訴你,這就是做一半沒效了。那最主要是罷工錢。那罷工錢,我說實在本席也反對消防人員他要罷工。 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1456.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1476.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
因為養兵千日用在意識,所以這些罷工錢當然也不能適用,但是一定我是建議重新再盤點,各單位好好去研究一下,即使讓他組工會,不要把他當作洪水猛獸,不用那麼緊張,教師工會, |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1479.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1482.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我認為因為這裏面有個很重要的就是這個消防員本身是公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1505.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1519.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那教師的時候,不是每一個都是公務員。啊,第二,就是說公務員現在也有這個,你剛才有說過,我們可以做這個協會嘛。啊,協會裡面的時候,他可以有多少的諮商權啊等等,這可以再來修法啦。啊,我們已經提出一份,在訂一個會期啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1529.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1544.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
但是這個發展這個會期因為預期不遂什麼,我又會再想出來,來大院講,聽這個委員的意見,看我們朝野的做法跟想,想要好讓他比較好,工會比較好還是協會比較好,其實這也要來聽我們這個消防 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
1549.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
1573.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
林國成的消防兄弟,他們的心聲。他們已經這樣,院長我跟你報告,他們認為是主公會,但是一定我跟你講啦,不要怕,不要怕,因為他們需要的是職業安全法,只要主公會,他就有職業安全法,但是保留, |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
1574.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
1593.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我聽說你們內政部都沒同意我跟委員報告一下,你基本談的這是兩件事情這是兩件事情,完全兩件第一個是我們的消防人員依照憲法的規定國家的公務員是必須經過國家考試消防員的身份是公務人員但老師並不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
1598.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
1615.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
公務人員兼具勞工身份的一大堆啦你不要跟我講這個啦沒有沒有這兩件事情怎麼會兩件事情勞工我時間有限我跟你講公務人員兼具勞工身份一大堆只是法令要不要解套而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
1616.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
1639.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
所以齁,我坦白跟你講啊,柏定,沒錯,你從基層上來,那你來這點我就感覺說,你都在基層都白呆了。我說實在的,主公會沒有那麼可怕,但是我同意警消限制罷工錢,那他有其他的,他只要是要入, |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
1640.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
1657.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
職業安全法嘛因為您現在那是專業信念但是職業安全法它是有法則的喔它是有法令的喔所以他們現在缺法的是職業安全法對他們的保障嘛你放在協會裡面根本就不能放嘛所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
1659.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
1673.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
這職業安全法的補分,就是我們的政府可以在消防法裏面把這個職業的消防人員的職業安全的補分給訂單裏面。這也是另外一個做法。我們本來就有在想說在消防法裏面要來修這個職業安全的補分。當然委員我們的不公的見解,你說你就要 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
1681.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
1692.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
好啦,原則性我同意啦但是我坦白跟你講外行的話我是不愛聽啦我坦白跟你講職業安全法限定公務人員、經濟勞工身分是可以適用只要你用那個協會那個協會就是社會團體我跟你講那個不是專法啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
1710.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
1737.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
所以我跟你說,你如果要說這些,沒關係,你們既然有這樣做,我希望部長,你們好好跟那個勞動部,這裡好好商量一下,我會繼續追,我會繼續追,好不好?來,那其他那個一定,我很少的時間來,時間暫停一下,請那個,請那個我們法務部,還有我們那個, |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
1738.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
1739.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
今天我們院裡面有一個打詐的公聽會現在打詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
1766.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
1768.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我們說實在的這件事因為很多統一現在三萬多件 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
1772.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
1780.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
詐騙八十幾億,我們說實在的這宜孝國際啦,宜孝國際。我告訴你,全世界都有一個組織,國際組織,他在統計全世界的詐騙。我們說詐騙統一的國家,其實就是紐西蘭、新加坡、美國這些國家啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
1796.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
1797.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
來,議長,我跟您說 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
1811.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
1837.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
來,唐部長,你對這個有什麼看法?簡單就好了。我們覺得源頭防治是特別重要,那包含說我們想透過那個電子簽章法案很快會送到這個櫃院,盡可能的讓這種假冒帳號或者假冒名人的狀況可以有所緩解。蔡部長?我們省了30萬,跟警察跟調查局的人,大家都很認真在打架。 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
1840.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
1842.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
謝謝林委員國成的質詢。謝謝陳院長的答詢。謝謝。接下來我們請登記第17號蔡委員起床 |