| IVOD_ID |
17596 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17596 |
| 日期 |
2026-07-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-5-26,36-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-07-16T08:36:41+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-07-16T13:41:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:04:19 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685c7074259dd7bbe72c2e91769a1d91c616d94474d9c748abc6b7486f2230fde2c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-07-16T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「人工生殖法修正草案」案。
二、繼續審查委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。
三、繼續審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。
四、繼續審查委員黃捷等22人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。
五、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。
六、繼續審查委員范雲等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。
七、繼續審查委員林楚茵等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。
八、繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。
九、繼續審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。
十、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。
十一、繼續審查委員林月琴等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。
十二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。
十三、繼續審查委員洪申翰等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。
十四、繼續審查委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。
十五、繼續審查委員林淑芬等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。
十六、繼續審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。
十七、繼續審查委員張雅琳等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。
十八、繼續審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。
十九、繼續審查委員鄭正鈐等20人擬具「人工生殖法第六條條文修正草案」案。
二十、繼續審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。
二十一、審查委員王正旭等20人擬具「人工生殖法修正草案」案。
【逐條討論，不詢答】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:36:41 - 13:41:00 |
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| transcript.pyannote[2464].speaker |
SPEAKER_17 |
| transcript.pyannote[2464].start |
18219.29346875 |
| transcript.pyannote[2464].end |
18219.36096875 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
117.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
117.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
太太 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1689.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1699.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
本日開會時間為上午九時到下午十現在已經超過九十人為主法定人數本席宣告我們延長十五分鐘開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1791.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1820.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
現在開會請主命報告出席人數報告臨時委員會出席委員時人已足法定人數本日會議成為審查及拘審查人工生殖法修正草案第21案現在我們介紹在場委員賴慧芸委員張雅玲委員王潔委員范芸委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1823.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1852.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
莊瑞雄委員王振旭委員林淑芬委員邱慧璐委員陳昭芝委員黃秀芳委員介紹列席官員衛生福利部石崇良部長國民健康署沈敬芬署長法規會陳信成參事法務部汪南君參事 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1854.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1874.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
內政部護政師潘瑩中專門委員司法院少年級家事廳郭耀明法官行政院性別平等處林秋軍處長金融監督管理委員會保險局賴純欽副組長財政部護稅署羅佩儒專門委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1882.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1909.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
法務部主任檢察官李忠漢江一樓代理科長請提案委員說明提案要之前先做以下宣告本會在第一本會在上在上 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1911.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1935.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
會期一百一十五年一月八日以進行逐條審查本日繼續進行審查二循例本日不處理臨時提案三有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在有收到邊更議程提案請請議事人員宣讀提案內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1936.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1964.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
因代理孕母涉及第三人的健康权目前仍待社会对话凝聚共事原提案建议今日会议先行脱钩处理审查不涉代理孕母相关版本共16案故讨论事项变更为第一案继续审查行政院含情审议人工生殖法草案案等16案提案委员林淑芬王振旭刘建国庄瑞雄范云张亚林黄秀芳杨耀宣读完毕 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1966.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1985.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
請問有無異議有異議我們現在進行表決有異議的話我們就現在進行表決來現在我們現在進行表決齊用舉手表決表決前先清點在場出席委員人數清點人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2048.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2053.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
在場出席委員 九人不含主席現在開始表決 贊成者請舉手反對者請舉手 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2078.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2106.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
在場出席委員9人不含主席贊成者7人反對者2人贊成者多數通過對因為我們剛已經在提案就已經有講得很清楚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2117.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2125.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
主席不好意思是不是說當然我看到表決結果但是你會允許我做幾分鐘的一個發言謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2139.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2152.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
謝謝各位我知道整個人工智慧法案大家最擔心的就是代孕的部分那作為這個主要提出的這個黨團那我想我有我應該有責任跟大家做簡單的這個說明我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2153.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2161.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
因為大家的餘力所以我們做了好幾道這個防線那基本上我想因為時間有限最重要是我們是在這個透過這個醫療剛性的一個篩選跟絕對自主權我們做了幾道防線各位擔心的部分其實在後面的法條都會看到我們仔細的把它寫出來那包括這個在生理的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2176.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2180.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
剛性的生理檢查在哪些情況可以絕對流產跟終止權損害賠償經驗等等第二道防線很重要是雙律師還有加公正這個就是法律上強制公正雙律師當然這個費用是由需求者來 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2193.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2211.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
來處理那當事人必須親自到場來確定他的自由意願第三道防線就是在經濟大家最擔心的商業剝削的部分那這個部分我們建立的是一個在法律當中有明顯的表達這個高度受監管的整個經濟的一個金流跟補償的部分包括我們設立所謂的專款專戶包括這個是由第三方機構例如所謂的這個代孕這個委託機構來執行而且要對這個孕母做這個強制的保險包括健康的保險跟人壽的這個保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2222.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2242.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那第四道防線當然是以這個這上面這三個部分是以大家最擔心的代孕的女性是不是有受到足夠的保護那第四道的防線就是對親子因為孩子是中心怎麼樣在這個親權的認定責任的分定等等都要非常的清楚這是對以孩子最佳利益為主簡單的說我們這個提出的這個法案就是以這個透過醫學剛性的設限法律地位的對等甚至要讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2251.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2272.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這個任何爭議都是以待遇媽媽的利益為考量的優先經濟信託的隔離加上這個侵權法定的這個鎖定那我們整個這個整理過程我如果大家願意逐條討論的時候你會看到我們過程當中在立法說明引用了太多包括英國跟澳洲的這個制度歐洲人權生殖及胚胎學會台灣2004年2012年的公民審議會議英國健康大學發表研究報告英國籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2278.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2294.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
美國及英國代孕協調的經驗美國律師公會研理契約的範本美國加勢美國叫做加勢法局紐約州的Family Court Act然後憲法第八條第十條二十二條有關身體自主醫療自主等等這個權益的保障優生保健法還有兒童權利公約第三條第五條第六條第八條 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2297.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2304.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那麼在民法的部分第7條529549116610941088而且我們還排除了106310660就是為了這個讓他有一些除外的一個保護主要是要保護孕母那美國紐約州的立法條例美國加州加市法保險法國健署2015的調查比如對代孕機構這個應該是哪一些單位來做還有司法院的釋字第748條 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2321.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2328.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
重中之重就是CEDAW的部分就是說在除了保障這個婦女的整個生育權整個自主權之外我也請拜託大家能夠理清如果我們這個在一個嚴格的規範下在完全的知情的同意之下我們如果不讓婦女有機會去做她認為讓她我們認為不信任她自己在自主判斷情況能夠去做決定其實CEDAW也有指出這用過分保護這個女性的這個想法其實也是對 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2349.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2358.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
女性的一個她的權益的這個歧視好謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝陳昭智委員的發言那接下來邱惠璐委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2365.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2388.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
主席還有各位委員大家好那我想今天呢我跟趙之傑呢我們是滿懷期待的來到未還委員會因為我們知道延宕了幾個月的人工生殖法呢終於今天被排入未還委員會那我們看到了代孕的需求女童的需求單身女性的需求都會在這次的討論當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2389.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2407.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
又被更加的重視然後他們的需求有可能透過我們的討論再獲得進一步的解決但是今天早上來就是透過表決的方式好像要把代孕跟女童還有單身的部分來做一個脫鉤那這讓我們覺得很錯愕然後也很 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2411.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2428.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
遺憾那我們覺得不管是單身或者是女同志部分或者是有代孕需求的人其實大家都有生殖需求那不知道我們今天做出這個決定來把這兩種需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2429.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2445.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
人工生殖幫忙的人來做一個脫鉤處理其實我覺得有人會被丟包有人的聲音會被埋沒有人的權益會不被看見我覺得這是一件非常遺憾的事那其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2447.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2461.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
趙姿姐奔走人工生殖法代孕的部分其實是三四十年來的歷史了那趙姿姐她身為一個立法委員她繼續留在立法院其實就是想要去推動代孕 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2463.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2487.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我們滿懷期待今天來到洛環委員會我們以為有一個討論的機會我們不敢要求說我們所主張的條文一定會通過但是我們滿懷希望的來到這邊希望有一個討論的空間被聽見 被看見 被理解然後再把這些有待遇需求的人的微弱聲音發出去然後也希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2489.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2512.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
讓社會能夠正視這些代孕者他們的困境他們的無奈他們的心酸也許今天很多代孕者已經守在電視機前面網路前面想要去等待這一場他們期待多時然後能夠關照出他們需求的一場未完委員會的精彩討論但是很遺憾的這場討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2514.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2532.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
被沒收了不知道等一下的程序如何發展但我覺得身為民眾黨在推行人工生殖法案的同志也就是我然後身為昭知姐的好夥伴也就是我我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2534.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2546.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我有必要在這個時候把我們的困境跟大家來報告那希望大家不要沒收代孕者想要發生的一個機會謝謝以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2557.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2570.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
各位今天沒有所謂的沒收不沒收在代孕這個制度這個你們的主張是你們的主張但是我們今天希望脫鉤處理是因為社會高度共識而且各黨各派大家都有相同的支持的優先來審查而且給這個女童和單身女性一個機會所以是把高度社會共識的這一個部分先行處理就是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2587.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2598.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那民眾黨黨團如果你支持代孕而且你們經常在院會裡面提出公投因為我們不知道就我們的認知這是一個非常社會高度爭議的這個法案的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2602.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2613.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
中和國的第八十屆由秘書長向大會提出的報告也講了代孕的做法具有剝削和暴力侵害婦女和兒童的特徵它將婦女的身體商品化和物化並將代孕母親和兒童暴露在遭受嚴重人權侵犯的風險之下從而強化了重男輕女的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2624.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2648.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
鑒於上述的原因特別委員會建議會聯合國的所有會員國跟其他相關利益的攸關方在國際一級要採取步驟取消一切形式的代孕行為在已經合法化的要廢除代孕制度而在廢除代孕制度之前呢各國也必須要採取保護的行動以防止進一步的傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2649.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2668.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
並加強對參與代孕安排的婦女和兒童權利的保護所以他們聯合國的這一份報告呢他們也在強調努力通過要努力通過一項具有法律約束力的國際文書禁止一切形式的代孕行為等等這個是聯合國 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2671.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2685.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
禁止代孕的正式通過的一份文件好那我們回到台灣來在院會裡面民眾黨最喜歡拿出來公投如果你們覺得你們獲得社會的支持我們建議你們提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2686.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2704.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
把這個代理運母問一下社會支持或不支持這樣子不要舉著民意支持的這個謊言支不支持交給人民公投就知道了我覺得代人民的公投出來的時候我們也可以來解決你們的問題啊所以在這種狀況裡面待運我們先不是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2709.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2721.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
丟包任何哪一個議題而是我們要讓高度社會期待高度社會共識各黨各派都支持的先行處理如此而已好謝謝我們的林淑芬委員接下來黃婕委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2737.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2756.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
好謝謝主席今天出席的所有委員那我們今天進行這個人工生殖法的繼續審查我認為是非常有必要的但是為什麼在前面必須要先強調要跟這個代理孕母要做脫鉤這個其實大家已經講了非常多次因為代理孕母涉及的是使用別人的身體 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2757.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2777.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
就這麼簡單使用別人的身體跟我們今天在審查這個人工生殖法的核心是兩件本質上完全不同的事情所以我們希望有高社會高度共識的大家優先來處理像單身女性像女同志大家使用自己的子宮自己的身體大家能夠在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2780.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2794.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
讓這個生育自主權真正還給女性的前提之下來進行審查那既然這個都是很多女性期待的期待已久的事情為什麼我們不要在今天就來加速審查呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2795.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2822.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那我必須要講我舉個例子為什麼代理孕母必須要先脫鉤是因為其實國際上已經有非常多的例子代理孕母就是在使用別人的身體像是這個中國女星鄭爽她其實有在美國找人代孕然後懷孕七個月了那她跟男友分手了那她孩子她就說她不要了所以當這個生孩子如果變成是一個可以下單的事情孩子就會變成是可以退貨的商品 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2823.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2845.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那甚至也有很多國際上諸如此類的例子都不斷的在發生所以這些問題到底要怎麼解決如果開放 貿然開放了是不是會變成接二連三有這樣子將女性的身體商品化工具化的情形出現呢所以在這樣子的問題沒有辦法解決之前我都不認為台灣有這樣子的條件可以開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2848.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2860.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那剛剛其實陳委員也有提到說CEDAW有說不要過度保護女性但是我必須要說當代理孕母的條文一旦開放了才是在剝削女性 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2862.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2885.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
好看一下這個陳昭之委員的版本裡面甚至沒有禁止近親代孕甚至是說如果要人工流產要告知委託方然後也沒有限制說委託方可以同時簽幾個代理孕母甚至對孕母的植入的流產次數也沒有上限那等於是說這個代理孕母的子宮是一個可以一直重新開機的機器 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2887.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2910.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我很擔心這部法如果通過第一批孕母很可能就是在家庭裡面你的姐姐妹妹你的女兒你的媳婦因為這個近親待遇是非常有可能發生甚至在我們胃懷有委員他自己是升職醫學中心的醫師他就幫這個他的客戶做了近親待遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2911.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2915.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我必須要說這個評估即便再怎麼樣驗得出這個育母健不健康但是也驗不出這個家庭內的壓迫也驗不出這種家庭內的情緒勒索所以我必須要說大家一定要看到在家庭內女性在現實處境裡面會遇到的這種壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2932.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2946.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
先了解到底現實中是怎麼運作的我們再來討論這個到底是保護女性還是剝削女性所以拜託今天我們就先從單身女性還有女同志這一些能夠還給她們身體自主權這樣子的條文開始進行 謝謝好 謝謝王美娟委員發言接下來請張阿玲委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2963.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2989.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
好謝謝主席以及我們今天出席的各位委員我想今天還是要必須的澄清一下今天其實是把社會高度共識的部分來去做一個處理絕對不是丟包任何其他人的需要而且其他人的聲音其實在過去我們的充分討論下面一直都有被呈現這一點一定要做個說明那今天要真正的來討論的為什麼要這樣子做一個討論呢最主要是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2990.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3012.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
我們今天講的是這個女性用自己的身體來做這個生育計畫到底我們可不可以支持女性用自己的身體來做生育的規劃我們到底可不可以支持我們一直以來都在講生育的身體的自主權我們希望孩子可以去決定自己的身體的使用所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3013.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3035.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
現在今天討論的行政院的版本基本上就是在支持這樣子的一個概念在這樣子的一個邏輯之下可是如果我們今天要討論代孕的話那今天就會變成是說國家要不要建立一套制度來使一個人的生育規劃可以透過另外一個女性的身體來完成可不可以來使用另外一個女性的身體 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3036.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3064.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
也就是說我們是使用了別人身體所以這完全不能夠用生育自主這個四個字一起來把它含過起來那再來就是說在上次的主條討論的時候還有之前的幾次的發言我都一直有非常的強調是說在我們今天討論這件事情的時候我們的兒少最佳利益到底在哪裡這些問題一直都沒有被討論如果這個在懷孕過程期間發生的這個產檢的時候發現了孩子的一些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3065.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3086.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那这个问题如果这个买家他不要的话那这个孩子怎么办那甚至是说我们今天还有看到说如果这些案件呢是涉及强迫或者是诈骗违法媒合那这个不但是影响了代理孕母的权益也会使得这个孩子的权益因此而受到影响 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3087.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3113.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那孩子如果在瘦素出生前呢這個瘦素配偶離婚死亡或者是雙方拒絕接回時那誰負責醫療決定出生登記跟立即照顧呢所以其實種種的問題呢到現在其實我們都沒有一個答案我們都沒有辦法去確認如果我們貿然的來討論來通過這個帶領孕母的話其實我們沒有辦法解決我們剛剛講到上述對於兒少最佳利益的侵害所以今天呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3113.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3121.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我會認為說我們就是把社會高度共識的部分女性使用自己的身體做生育規劃這件事情的來儘速討論然後儘速通過來回應社會的一個期待 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3130.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3153.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那本席要回應民眾黨團的說法嚴重扭曲本席對於這次本次會議的規劃本席在規劃本次議程前就已經多次跟婦女團體及同志團體開會溝通充分聽取各方意見怎麼會說我們忽略忽視同志團體的建議但因為本來就是高度爭議的議題婦女團體週二就已經公開指出 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3157.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3182.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
代理一母涉及到女性身體工具化 健康風險契約的一個控制跟階級不平等以及兒童最佳利益等問題這些爭議至今都還沒有充分評估也沒有完整的政策報告因此我要反問的是為什麼要把社會上位形成共識制度影響極為深遠的待遇綁在人工生殖法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3182.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3211.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
反過來卡住未婚女性及女同志使用人工生殖的一個權利這也是我們接到有些未婚女性跟女同志他們在表達他們的權益如果再繼續拖下去的話根本也是阻礙他們有生育的一個權利所以我們支持行政院版本放寬單身女性及女同志配偶使用人工生殖現行法律要求女性必須要進入異性婚姻才能使用人工生殖 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3211.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3233.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
那實質上能受到傳宗接代及父權婚育的邏輯限制許多女性已經是凍卵了卻因為沒有進入到異性婚姻不能夠使用自己的卵子對他們而言修法不是抽象液體而是正在流逝的生育時間至於兒童最佳利益政府應該要做的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3234.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3263.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
提供托育勞動及家庭支持而不是預設單身女性沒有能力照顧孩子然後呢相關評估也不能夠形成對單身女性更嚴格的審查甚至造成實質排除人工生殖是女性應用自己的身體完成生育代孕則涉及到第三人的身體健康跟權利兩者本來就本質上差我想剛剛前面委員也有提出來了所以我覺得有共識的能先做的就應該先推進 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3265.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3282.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
高度正義的待遇應該要脫鉤來討論不能拿來拖延未婚女性及女同志已經等待多年的權益以上不知道還有沒有人要程序發言好 國務卿委員國務卿委員要 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3295.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3311.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
好謝謝主席我想這個人工生殖法其實修法討論多年但是我始終支持具有高度社會共識的改革我們先行進行了那我想這個單身女性以及這個女性同志配偶如果他是有能力有意願來生養 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3312.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3332.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那我想我們國家就應該要保障他們的生育的一個自主那不應該因為這個婚姻的身份而受到限制那這步法呢其實我想這個部分呢其實不涉及他人的身體那麼也不會把這個健康風險轉嫁給第三人我想這個是在我們的這個社會當中已經有 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3333.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3355.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
相當程度的一個共識就應該要來先優先完成那我想這部法呢其實現在在立法院當中總共有21個修法的一個版本那內容涉及呢適用的一個資格還有親子身份的認定法律責任還有資料管理以及代孕等不同制度的一個設計其實各個版本其實差異都非常大 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3356.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3383.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那尤其是代理育母我想剛剛幾位委員其實也都特別提到了那我想代理育母他不只是人工生殖技術的一個部分而已他其實還涉及到女性身體的自主醫療上的一個風險兒童最佳利益甚至在關係到所謂的家庭法律的多重議題那我想這跟擴大人工生殖適用對象本質上其實兩者不同的一個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3384.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3411.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那我想呢代孕母牽涉的不只有是委託者跟孕母還有包含這個孕母原有的家庭還有代孕出生的孩子那如果是在孕期當中發生重大的醫療風險到底誰應該要來承擔那如果是親子關係撫養責任跟醫療決策發生爭議的時候我們的法律又應該要如何保障這個真的都不是一句只有代孕合法化就能夠解決的一個問題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3412.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3428.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
所以我想這個人工生殖法保障的我們不只是希望能夠生育的大人其實更包括未來出生的孩子那我想這個孩子的法律的身份是否確定他的權益是否完整那麼最佳的利益是否受到保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3428.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3456.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
都應該在制度設計的時候完整的考量不是等到孩子出生之後再透過所謂的個案訴訟來追溯那我想我主張這個是具有高度社會共識的人工生殖適用擴大那包含剛剛我特別提到的單身的女性或者是女性同志配偶適用使用人工生殖應該要優先修法那至於所謂的代孕的部分因為它涉及到人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3457.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3482.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
涉及到醫療涉及到倫理還有許多的家庭的法律等等那我想這個議題其實是牽涉非常廣的那應該是要跟人工生殖擴大的這個適用的對象來脫鉤處理會比較妥當那我想呢這個修法的目的不是只有完成一部法律那最重要的是要建立一套保障當事人跟下一代權益經得起檢驗的一個制度才行好以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3484.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3501.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
好 謝謝郭執行委員發言還有沒有人要程序發言沒有的話 我們就程序發言完畢因為我們剛才才通過變更議程的動議醫治人員需要時間重新再整理一下整個對照表所以我們現在休息十分鐘對 十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3507.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3508.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
好 好 好 好好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3541.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3542.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
啊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3549.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3567.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3570.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3570.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3587.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3587.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3617.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3617.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3631.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3632.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3655.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3676.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3684.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3704.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
要篩查保護人員的資訊在下文件因為他不是這個案子他就是一個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3716.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3717.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那我下午應該就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3734.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3734.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3768.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3769.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3783.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3796.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
謝謝觀看,下次見! |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3798.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3800.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
臺灣高好點臺灣高好點臺灣高好點 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3826.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3832.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
王姐,我這一陣子來王一高後樓,王一起來導演一下,好嗎?好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好, |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3852.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3858.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
這張圖片是在2014年,是在2014年,是在2014年,是在2014年,是在2014年, |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3874.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3876.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那我的現金是多少錢對 如果到銀行再賺 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3896.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3900.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我今天早上有拿起來,不用這麼深奧 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3926.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3928.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
對,對,我今天早上爬起來,開始爬起來,對,對,對,對,對,對,對 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3943.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3966.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
對,對,對,對,對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3966.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3968.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那是禮拜一個中午的教堂 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4229.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4247.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
現在進行討論四項審查及繼續審查人工生殖法修正草案即16案之逐條審查每條條文先請行政單位說明接著請委員表示意見現在進行本案逐條討論上次討論到第一條現在討論第二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4253.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4269.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那請行政部門說明 報告委員第二條的部分是定義主管機關那這個是原條文增修了之後把它定義更詳細就是中央是衛福部然後在地方的部分是地方縣市政府沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4282.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4297.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
委員有沒有意見 第二條第二條是講主管機關沒有沒有那保留第二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4301.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4320.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
這行政主管機關而已那要講為什麼要保留啊因為我們想我們匆忙進來然後想說好像就再讓他們再做說明就是因為這是行政主管機關要保留要說明要講理由不能講每一條如果講多那大家都不用審了 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4321.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4345.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
現在是第二條嗎 現在是第二條第二條部分國健署這邊說明第二條是定義本法的主管機關在中央市衛生福利部在地方的話是縣市政府有特別要變成別的部門嗎這邊他講的是中央市衛生福利部那直轄縣市是那個在直轄市是直轄縣市政府在縣為縣市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4353.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4356.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那等到中央要別的部會嗎還是要加嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4358.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4385.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
地方不是那個嗎我們不會是政府嗎為了杯葛而杯葛吧沒有沒有真的沒有主管機關而已還需要保留對因為我們的機構裡面我們架構裡面有所謂的包括代孕這個委託機構等等那這個完全沒有包含剛剛已經講過所以我們已經我們要求保留我的理由就是這樣我們要求保留但是這一條是講主管機關中央主管機關你剛剛講的那些東西還是要回到主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4388.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4409.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
我們剛不就講在第二條他也在解釋啊這個螢幕上面也都寫主管機關啊前面旁邊兩側都是寫啦我們手上的資料跟那個不一樣已經就是已經放在螢幕上的也就是主管機關在中央為衛生福利部在直轄市及直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4415.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4443.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
主席我們就是認為整部法裡面一定要有所謂的代孕機關剛才已經有提過了所以我們是不是需要再宣告一次主席請你再宣告一次剛才的主席你是不是應該再宣告一次我們就是涉及到代女育母的版本高度社會爭議的這個相關條文我們就暫時都不處理了先優先處理社會高度有共識的 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4445.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4469.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
剛才不是這樣子嗎剛才已經有通過就是變更議程的提案應代理孕母涉及到第三人的健康權這也不能限制我們的發言權啊目前乃待社會對話好明確共識這也不能限制我們的發言權啊我們可以你發言啊我們只是跟你再三的提醒是說今日會議先行脫鉤處理審查不涉及到代理孕母的相關版本我還是要說明我還是要說明我還是要說明我還是要說明我還是要說明我還是要說明我還是要說明我還是要說明我還是要說明我還是要說明我還是要說明我還是要說明我還是要說明我還是要說明我還是要說明我還是要說明我還是要說明我還是要說明我還是要說明我還是要說明我還是要說明我還是要說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4475.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4487.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
可以啦他可以個人保釋他個人保留但不代表我們委員會保留我們要求保留我們要求這個條件保留民眾黨要求這個條件這個這一條是保留謝謝保留他個人的意見啦給他保留啊對啊這是民眾黨黨團的意見但我們剛才的這個變更議程已經確定了變更議程確定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4509.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4533.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那我們要在文字上要求加入我們就這條討論要求加入這個代孕居間機構或是代孕服務機構這邊前面就已經講過那如果這樣的話那就變成今天就是會指導這條因為我們這樣的話全部就一路保留到底啦不是嗎今天就已經提過了基本上有讓你們發言我們也沒有主席也沒有裁示不可以發言只是說剛剛已經宣告了今天討論的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4534.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4552.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
就說把這個機構放在裡面有礙於你的發言要留下記錄這都完全沒有任何礙於但是我要求把這個放進去因為沒有辦法說我要求保留這樣不礙於你們各個其他委員所主張的它不妨礙啊完全不妨礙所以我們要求保留謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4575.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4593.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
請問夫婦說明為什麼這一條以前都沒有特別強調中央主管機關為什麼你們過去都沒有寫這個部分今天突然加進來寫這個部分每一部法律都會講這一部法律的主管機關是誰我們昨天才審完也有主管機關每一部法律都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4595.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4620.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
你沒有主管機關誰要負責這個業務執掌呢你還是要有主管機關嘛對不對這個是所有的法例我們已經審了這麼多包含我們昨天才審的煙害防治法但是過去這麼多年為什麼都沒有員工生殖法存在這麼久了為什麼在第二條的地方這一條的地方所以現在是反對家嗎好那你們可以主張那有主管機關嗎那我們也可以主張那我想問就是說都不要有主管機關嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4622.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4650.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
也可以啊 你是反對不能有主管機關民眾黨的立場就非常清楚民眾黨立場是反對主管機關今天因為代孕就被閹割被沒收其實你們今天處理根本就不是不孕症的朋友這些雖然我們的版本也都支持包括女女跟單女但是他們都是不是屬於不孕症的朋友現在你等於把全國不孕症的其中當然一大部分的朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4651.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4671.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
國人同胞全部放棄了拋棄了所以我們一直堅定我們的主張今天我們討論法根本就不是不孕症的朋友女女跟單女根本不是不孕症啊她不是不孕症我們今天討論人工生殖法人工生殖法技術的存在本來就是為了幫助不孕有困難的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4671.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4685.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
那今天你把最原始的精神拿掉了所以我們主張一直要把這個相關的放在裡面這就讓我們這樣子表達這個是民眾黨一致的意見也是我們這個長期推動者30年來一致的意見那第二條是要拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4697.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4709.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
主管機關嗎當然不行喔為什麼他說要拿掉主管機關這樣不負責任的事情那人工生殖了這一件事情誰要負責執掌我們要求完整的陳述完整的陳述要先有主管機關是誰啊要先界定啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4719.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4748.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
過去 你就為了一個代理運母的事情我們沒有要拿掉 剛剛是我們沒有要拿掉 我只問說為什麼以前沒有那現在有了但是我們希望把這個代孕居間機構或是原始我們的提案當中代孕服務機構 這個是第三機構這個機構甚至也是由中央主管機關來去認定的我們要求把這個放進去 中央主管機關是誰今天因為沒有沒有 在這個最前頭沒有這個部分所以我們要求保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4750.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4767.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我要澄清過去第三條就有本法的主管機關為衛生福利部只是他這次放第二條增加了我們的在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府王振旭委 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4769.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4786.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
好謝謝主席我想我們這個第二條之所以會有需要成立很重要的原因是為了要符合人工生殖機構與醫療法規中之中央及地方主管機關全責分工 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4787.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4814.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
所以才會修正本法主管機關這邊講得非常清楚是為了要符合人工生殖機構在這個部分的需求所以不管是哪一類的人工生殖的需要之下只要符合人工生殖機構在這個主管機關之下本部法律所定的內容應該都是需要透過主管機關那這個主管機關當然在中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4815.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4836.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
還有在地方都要有所規範所以非常清楚的就告訴我們說生殖機構本身是需要有一個主管機關來涵括他們所工作的內容那這個跟到底人工生殖怎麼執行其實是在這部法律都有規範所以第二條很清楚的告訴我們是有這個需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4837.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4857.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那如果是代理或其他的代理等等的那種機構本身事實上他本身是無法是一個主管機關的這個角色所以我想以上的這個報告希望大家能夠了解也能夠知道說為什麼我們要在這個第二條有定這樣的這個需要以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4859.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4874.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
陳昭志委員謝謝主席因為這第二條是在指用詞跟定義那你如果要把中央主管機關那你就留在現在講的是第二條是主管機關你那個招下行政院的版本這裡在講主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4875.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4894.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
你對照一下行政院版本因為你沒有提所以你的第二條跟我們大家的第二條我們沒有反對把這個字眼放在某個地方但是我們是要求我們就是所謂這個跟要實施人工升值這個相關的包括代孕居間或是代孕服務機構我們要求放在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4898.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4921.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
代孕機構代孕機關也不是放在主管機關這裡吧因為行政院的版本是全文修正那麼民眾黨團的版本是部分條文修正那麼全文修正我們是把主管機關那麼寫在第二條那原本的這個現行的條文主管機關寫在第三條所以民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4921.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4939.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
版的版本是把名詞定義按照我們現行條文做修正所以是修正第二條但是第三條能難民眾黨版本沒有修正也就是維持有主管機關現在主要是因為行政院版本是全文修正所以條次改變了 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4940.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4948.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那民眾黨的版本是部分條文修正啦應該是對照的話應該是這個解釋在今天就是說大黨欺負小人像強行表決通過之後那你不能說現在我們這一條本來是就是有這個代孕的這個機關或是代孕的這個名詞今天你反過來說這個我們沒有辦法接受所以我們要求我們黨團要要求保留嘛要保留嘛要保留是 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4968.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4995.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
你如果不是故意不看清楚那也就是故意鬧因為你在講的那個名詞定義就是這個大家的版本的第三條你是第二條沒有錯那我們已經說服你了你的第二條在我們等一下第三條就會討論了但是你還是要偏執說第二條不能通過要保留第二條只是在明定這個人工生殖法的中央和地方主管機關這再單純不過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4997.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5005.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
你為什麼連這種再簡單再單純而且就讓他們中央主管機關的這個明確的定義出來是他們的職責的時候你還是要反對所以就不是如果不是為了反對而反對故意鬧這不是這樣子嗎我們想不出來你有什麼理由好就為了這一條中央主管機關是衛福部地方主管機關是各縣市政府有什麼好保留的 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5027.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5037.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那你再要的東西在第三條等一下就會討論了嘛你為什麼不要第二條先過然後到第三條再來你要討論到第三條再來討論對不起 等一下我覺得 趙志偉人在發言的時候 我覺得請千萬不要扣帽子什麼大黨 欺負小黨這兩年來 這三年來事實上每次藍白聯手的時候常常也擋住很多很重要的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5055.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5072.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那今天甚至這一個事實上是我剛剛我們剛剛前面已經是決定是沒有社會共識並不是不能做那就像剛剛淑恩委員講的也可以公投啊那怎麼會是用每一開口講話都都都用這種方式我覺得錢也要尊重別人 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5077.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5088.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
謝謝主席啦但是我也拜託主席就是保持一個公正的立場不是保持公不公正為什麼你一開口就講什麼大黨欺負小黨那這三年來不是公正第二條這麼簡單可不可以通過啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5093.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5108.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
國園會過去從來沒有發生過在變更議程用表決的方式來處理而且這些法已經醞釀了這兩年來很多很多立法院沒有發生過去沒發生過是不是也是發生主席那我可以就是因為第二條談論的就是一個名詞定義嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5109.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5136.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
不是啦你的名詞定義是大家版本的第三條所以我才強烈的建議你第二條在講主管機關我們是不是不要保留讓他通過你等到第三條名詞定義的時候我們再來討論我們這邊是主張說把現在的主管機關這一條變成第三條然後把名詞定義拉回第二條我們是主張這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5137.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5144.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
你們現在是為了反對而反對還是故意要鬧沒有沒有你去看所有法律的架構 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5145.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5169.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
你去翻所有法律的架構你去找全台灣全中華民國的法律的架構第一個是立法的宗旨第二個講主管機關第三個來講因為要作用要管理所以你要定義每一個名詞而你們通通都知道你們不是不知道今天在這裡你們表現出來態度就是故意要鬧故意要反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5170.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5195.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
沒有故意要鬧也沒有故意犯對就是把自己內心的來啦食安法第一條講第一條講這個基於什麼原因要定制定本法第二條講儲款機關對不對然後第三條再講用詞名詞定義大家都是這個樣子每一部法律都是這個樣子立法的體力都是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5196.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5207.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
你們現在故意就為了說把第三條先拿上來第二條放到下面去你們這樣子堅持有什麼意義那也可以啦那這樣是不是改成第三條你就馬上通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5209.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5224.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我們可以第三條你現在把它改成第三條馬上通過我們討論第二條你們都順你們的你們講的都算我們都聽你的就照邱委員你的建議第二條主管機關改成第三條名字定義改成第二條那你第三條會不會過你第三條會不會讓我們先通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5230.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5250.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
主管機關先定義出來可以嗎我們有看過很多委員提案的立法例他們也是把第二條用在規範名詞定義然後主管機關是在名詞定義之後可以啊那我先問你就是第三條就把它改成第三條你會讓他通過嗎如果都聽你們的了第三條你還不是不讓他過 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5258.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5263.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那你們就是為了杯葛而杯葛嘛那就第二條的名詞定義裡面加上代孕 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5265.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5290.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
全部都要照你們的版本才能通過 其他否則都全部保留今天你審要從下 不用審啊照你的講法是 全部都要聽你們的代孕都要放上去才能夠通過那這樣子我們今天幹嘛審 還能審嗎在這裡都沒共識了 在社會有共識嗎你們最喜歡提公投 為什麼不直接交付公投看人民支不支持代理孕母嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5293.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5308.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
來我們請法務部先請做解釋因為體力上我們看很多法真的事實上是在第二條就講到那個主管機關那現在民眾堅持說不是那所以我想說請法務部這邊做一下說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5310.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5332.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
是跟主席還有委員報告那我們再看過去的立法例的確主管機關定在第二條或第三條用詞定義放在第幾條過去也都有類似的體力但是最新的現行的法制體力我們通常都會把第二條比較新的體力就會把第二條主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5333.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5345.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
要定的話會把它列在第二條用詞定義放在第三條這樣子的順序是現在現行的法治體力比較採行的那是不是請委員可以參考以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5348.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5376.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
好那我們謝謝那個法務部來幫我們做解釋那如果最新的體力因為我們有看到不好意思看到很多立法委員我們手上整整一本其實就是把那個名詞定義放在第二條那如果法務部提到說這是最新的體力那當然我們就是重新來尊重所謂最新的體力這邊是沒有問題的那我們只是說因為有看到日前的就歷啦那沒問題現在就是對於新的體力是可以接受的 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5376.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5391.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那可以接受的意思是什麼 第二條現在可不可以照行政院提案通過就是中央主管機關可以那沒有意見的話我們第二條就照行政院的提案通過來接下來續審第三條 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5392.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5419.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
請行政部門說明好 報告委員第三條的部分是本法的一些名詞的定義那在這邊解釋說明人工生殖法的修法的草案是依照民法跟司法院748的一個法制框架上研擬人工生殖技術管理的一些規範所以在這邊我們要考慮到法律用詞在不同法案裡面的一致性那部分委員提的這個名詞定義會跟院版的有所不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5420.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5444.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
那在部分委員版本裡面使用配偶或者是婚姻關係那我們認為這樣子的一個用詞可能在不同法案裡面可能會有一些涵蓋不足的情形那另外再參考司法院的一個書面的意見那我們建議院版的版本做部分的一個調整就是在第三條第四款修正為 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5445.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5466.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
受訴配偶只下列接受人工生殖者一夫妻二成立司法院釋字第七四八號解釋施行法第二條關係括號以下簡稱結合關係括號之女性雙方當事人以下簡稱女同性雙方 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5467.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5483.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
以及第三條第五款制第七款制未婚女性修正為單身女性後的條文以這樣的法條通過謝謝好委員有沒有要表示這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5486.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5501.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
這個這一條因為其實在後面的其他條文裡面已經有框定特定的性別身分所以我覺得在這條裡面不需要去使用女同性雙方或者原先的這個女同志這樣子的用語 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5511.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5531.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
所以我還是認為說去使用這個婚姻關係或是受訴者或受訴配偶他方這些用語我覺得是比較恰當一點啦我這邊也有意見目前院版把適用對象區分為夫妻女同性雙方受訴未婚女性等不同類型 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5532.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5558.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
第一個是文字重複也必須在後續各條文反覆列舉不同身份增加法條閱讀跟適用上的一個複雜性我覺得是不是一樣就是應該以人工生殖技術的使用以及實際運產功能作為制度設計的核心用比較中性的方式來定義授術資格不是一開始就依照 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5559.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5579.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
婚姻型態或者是性別來做分類因為這是修法的大原則其實就是讓符合資格的異性同性伴侶以及單身者只要能以自己的子宮完成懷孕生產不涉及到第三方代孕就可以依法使用人工生殖那既然如此就完全可以用瘦素人 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5580.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5600.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
作為概括性名詞就好不需要重複列舉不同樣態當然而且如果後續條文涉及到婚姻狀態不同有不同的權利義務的時候也可以在這裡先明確定存在婚姻關係的受訴配偶涵蓋依民法及司法院4至第748號解釋施行法的辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5601.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5628.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
結婚登記者那後續條文就可以統一使用我們的授助配偶就比較好一點不需要反覆列舉夫妻跟女同性雙方來造成歧視性的區別因為如果衛福部說配偶一時不適用同性婚姻不遺用婚姻關係定義那我們看到婚專法同樣是做婚姻登記為配偶法律效果是相同所以我們在此定義婚姻關係是依照民法跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5629.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5658.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
婚專法進行的結婚登記者兩者統稱配偶是沒有問題的可是如果刻意區分的話事實上是有歧視的嫌疑所以我們希望是不是應該去考慮到只要涉及到實際接受人工生殖療程及懷孕分娩的規範的時候也可以使用瘦素孕產者等功能性用語來取代以性別作為描述方式使法條件聚焦在人工生殖程序本身而不是建立在不同身份分類上這是我的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5660.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5684.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那接下來我們的陳昭之委謝謝主席這一條這一條就是相對於那個請願版的第三條本檔的原來是再促生動於是第二條我們堅持要把這個代孕者代孕升職跟居間代孕機構服務機關的這個名詞定義放在裡面那這一條我們的意見是要保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5689.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5713.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
還是要重申 因為剛剛前面的那個已經 便利商店裡邊就已經有通過了就是這個事實上是先行脫鉤的 再次提醒主席不好意思 我們現在就庭政院條文有意見我們應該有權利表達對 我說我都會讓你表達沒有問題 我只是在提醒所以我沒有說不可以表達我說提醒 我們要求保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5716.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5728.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
主席不好意思謝謝主席那因為我們既然是來討論行政院版所提出的第三條那從第三條從第一款看到第十款那我們覺得沒有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5730.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5745.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
針對條文的內容那沒有看到代孕者的定義沒有看到代孕生殖的定義沒有看到居間代孕服務機構的定義這樣子所以我們覺得這個條文跟我們的想像是有落差的所以就是我們主張保留以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5749.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5763.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
主席我想我們今天要在這裡再強調一遍就是說行政院的版本當然他們不支持代理運母所以沒有這個很多委員也都沒有這個那他們的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5763.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5781.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
他們支持代理孕母所以他們有他們的名詞定義但我們不支持所以我們沒有那我們剛才的程序上的變更議程不是都已經強調了變更議程就是說把高度社會期待高度社會共識然後各黨團都有一致看法各黨團都支持的優先處理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5785.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5809.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那我們為什麼要這麼做是回應社會的需求嘛那把社會沒有共識的然後各黨團也沒有共識的連在立法院在這裡都沒有辦法取得共識的更不要講要去跟社會有什麼共識然後連提這個直接民主交付公投他們都不敢了然後因而在這裡然後就說他們要把代理孕母放進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5810.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5825.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
如果你們認為社會這麼高度支撐的話你就公投那你不敢公投就承認這一個是社會高度爭議沒有共識的不符合社會期待的那你為什麼一直要在這裡硬是要從上而下強迫這個社會來接受你 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5830.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5847.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
你陳昭之委員你民眾黨團個人的心願一輩子的心願或是你跟柯文哲前主席你們到底交換了什麼你們自己去買單而不是叫我全社會幫你買單嘛主席人聲攻擊陳昭之委員要發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5854.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5881.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
沒有 主席都有一點抱歉我是指說你在做人身攻擊太政治化了這個我們因為第一個我剛剛這個會委員一起說明我因為對這個版本有意見所以我們提出這樣說法那第二個我們甚至這個大家幾個人就在這邊說這是社會有共識的部分這是社會有爭議的部分其實也可以你們列舉為什麼是社會有爭議呢那我知道沈敬芬署長您過去你應該回去好好用功看看過去國建署的版本跟國建署的民調 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5883.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5890.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
以及包括中選會曾經現任主委曾經做的民調事實上這個民調已經足以表達台灣人民贊成代孕的這個比例高過反對者甚至國建署自己的民調差距非常的大這個是經過至少三次國家的民調所以並不是個人在說有爭議你就認為有爭議這個剛好 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5909.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5915.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
林委員我平常也很尊重他這個是非分明但這件事我們真的是需要再繼續溝通不是說在這裡都說不過去了那代表社會我們這幾個人真的能夠代表整個社會嗎你們看到這些需求者了嗎你們認識任何一個需求者嗎我想二三十年來最多我比任何一個不孕症醫師看到的都多因為我是唯一曝光的 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5932.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5960.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
然後他們來找我拜託我跪求我哭著過了這麼久的時間那經過有30個國家用立法來法治化我們不要讓民眾讓我們民眾因為就是要仰仗他們的這個經濟這個能力到國外去做其實國外的保障沒有更高回來還是會遇到很多問題為什麼同樣的問題我們不能在國內幫民眾解決然後我再回到人工生殖法的原始核心目的就是幫助有困難的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5961.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5979.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
有困難的人但是今天我覺得我覺得這個女女跟我也同意的大家可以看到的版本女女跟我們都一直是同意的事實上可能要脫鉤的是這部分因為他本來就不是不孕症的夫妻那我們今天要幫助不孕症的夫妻不孕的部分不孕者的部分其實這個不管是人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5980.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5984.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
不管是幫助他們現在有意願生育但是他們有困難有醫學上的困難的人這個為什麼要把他放棄呢為什麼硬說他這個是沒有共識而且是有爭議呢這個爭議我也可以請你們舉證啊我剛剛已經舉證了國建署的資料都有啊民調的資料也都有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6000.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6014.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
都有啊我都舉證啊你講的民調是2015年的民調了你為什麼不看現在最新的民調現在最新的民調在國建署性公告預告的時候反對代理運母的占多數呢所以你一直在講 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6015.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6035.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
第五年那個都12年前了世代和社會現在民意是這樣子嗎而且更不要講當時的民調這個是這個有強烈性的誘導性的這個民調不具可信性然後調查的支持度也不是像你們講的那麼高根本也沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6035.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6049.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
所以在這種狀況裡面你會用最新的民調最新來可以讓國建署講啊來國建署可以講啊現在最新的民意支撐是什麼啊而且你在這裡一直在講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6050.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6069.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
社會有共識 社會哪裡有共識啊我們可不可以再回到那個最原始的其實升職的條件當然是有金子 卵子跟子宮那同工過了以後我們都很支持我們與同志有卵子有子宮 獨缺金子的情況下但就三缺一嘛 三缺一那我們覺得要保障他們在憲法上的生育權 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6070.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6093.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那同樣的先天性無子宮的或子宮閉門而摘除的這個婦女跟異性配偶他們如果有健康的卵子跟精子那也是獨缺一樣啊也是三缺一的情況之下那這個部分的這些先天性無子宮或子宮閉門而摘除的婦女跟其他配偶的生育權不是也是應該憲法要保障的嗎所以我覺得今天這個這個生殖技術是應該要達到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6095.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6111.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
目的如果你這個剛剛我提到的這個都是要去保障的而且我們這次提的法案就是所謂的三就有精子有卵子但是就獨缺了一個孕育孩子的一個溫暖的地方所以這個部分是也是憲法應該要保障的 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6113.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6143.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
所以我認為這個婦女權益的保障跟單元人權的保障都是說都要同樣被重視我剛剛上去也謝謝主席讓我第一個上去做發言就是說整個法條如果請大家能夠仔細看你們擔心的一律我們用了一個最嚴格的法條取而其他國家最嚴格的法案怎麼樣來保障把風險降到最低讓這個委託者去承擔包括經濟包括法律包括醫學等等的這個責任我們想盡辦法去把它做一個全世界最嚴格的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6144.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6162.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
所以我是希望大家能夠你們也許聽不到這些人的聲音甚至你為什麼只有我一個你們也知道不只一個你們可以去問任何一個你們熟悉的那個不孕症的醫師背後有多少人在等待你也知道他們的壓力跟為難如果說這些人你們要扣資這個傳宗接代的大米這個這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6164.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6181.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
污名化那請問女女啊單女難道不是也是傳宗接代嗎那同樣都是傳宗接代那為什麼這個污名化這個剛才人家不是一直跟你講的嗎就放在代孕嗎這個不是生殖技術的問題這個法律規範的是生殖技術和對生殖技術所有的機構相關的規範嘛那 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6183.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6204.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
代理孕母涉及的不是只有生子技術他最核心是倫理法律是這種問題你剛才人家黃婕上去就跟你講最新的狀況中國女星跟男友分手他去代理孕母的那個小孩都還沒有出生他就不要就丟包了那個是極端案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6204.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6209.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
他不是極端案例這個非常多為什麼要為什麼而且現在我們為什麼現在進入討論代理孕母的這個高度社會爭議的這個議題呢我們沒有反對你的討論但是但是我們剛才變更議程就已經處理優先處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6226.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6246.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這個有共識的優先處理有共識的那你可以去主張你也可以去另立一步伐你去另立一步伐不要在這裡在這個狀況把它跟技術規範的機構規範的把它混在一起因為那是不同的概念嘛我配一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6249.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6276.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
主席這個因為剛剛前面其實已經通過程序就是今天要討論的是不包含代理孕母的人工生殖法的修法我是希望說大家當然我們都有不同的意見但是不是委員會的程序我們還是要尊重並且遵守這個意識才有辦法進行下去那麼第二點我還是要再次強調就是為什麼我們今天先聚焦來討論目前行政院院版的就是針對單身女性 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6279.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6302.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
這個的這個為受訴者的這一個版本的人工生殖因為這個部分是社會共識是相對比較高的那剛剛也感謝陳昭之委員也說其實他也是支持的那所以我真的是希望要拜託一下因為這個法案是我從也是進到立法院以來就已經提案那真的有很多的女性朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6303.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6321.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
很多人都已經動亂真的是有很多人在等待我們立法院的修法我們現在缺乏的不是技術我們現在缺乏的就是法律所以我們如果一再的讓時間延後延宕的話這真的我相信我們都可以同理這是每一個人的生命他就再次的被拖延而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6322.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6349.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
好像彷彿看不到一個時間表意思是遙遙無期的所以我真的是希望可以再來拜託一下就既然說我們針對我們現在目前這個修法的內容其實也是有所共識的那剛剛前面議事的程序也已經通過了那我們是不是今天可以就不要剛剛因為剛剛如果委員如果提案說保留的話其實實質上等於是又再次阻擋了這個法案的前提實質上的效果就是在擋人工升職嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6351.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6364.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
實際上的效果就是在擋已經擋多久了所以我是真的是希望拜託一下針對有共識的部分我們是不是可以先來通過那麼像代理育母這些其他剛剛提到的說法律啊相關人員的規範這些我覺得都是可以討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6367.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6390.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那是不是用其他的議事程序或是我們剛建議的提的專法或其他我們再來去進行所以真的是不需要說就是因為沒有共識的部分把已經有共識的部分它都無法前進這真的已經一年多了就是我剛剛也很高興聽到其實委員是支持的那既然支持的部分我們是不是可以讓它先前進好不好我要拜託一下真的很多人在等待我們立法院的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6392.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6402.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
對 陳委員剛剛既然你自己也支持單身女性跟女同志是用人工生殖那我們就是先這一塊處理有什麼問題嗎而且我要反問陳委員說你就是有聽到所有群體的聲音嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6407.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6436.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
也是某個單一個你少部分在那一樣的代孕制度我覺得涉及到這麼多群體你只看到不孕症的需求那負責生產的代孕者呢經濟剝削這前面都一直在講這個還有我最關心的兒少權益那這麼多團體講了這麼多疑慮你聽都不聽也不願意用更多時間來做討論一定要用一方的需求來綁架所有需要的人我這也不是很理想因為為什麼今天會排 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6437.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6454.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
因為有非常多單身女性她的迫切性再等一年再等兩年她可能生育的可能性就會變得微乎其微了為什麼不是讓這步伐先走然後呢你如果要是不是你們民眾法院也可以提一個專法進來去做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6459.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6480.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
主席不好意思對於女女跟這個單女我們是一直從頭到尾從頭到尾我們就一直放在裡面我們非常尊重甚至範圍比這個還大同志還就是不只包括這個女女這個是可以大家都可以看到我們提的法條第二剛剛佩玉委員或是您剛剛提到的就是大家等待的那種交集期待那請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6482.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6500.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
不印證夫妻就是子宮有病變先天或天的夫妻難道沒有同樣的期待跟等待嗎難道沒有嗎就你們講的這些期待等待甚至焦慮渴望難道這個心情不是也發生在子宮有問題的女性身上嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6501.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6522.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
所以這就是我們今天而且這個大運的部分已經討論非常久絕對不是一年兩年連女女單女因為在同婚之後出現的我們就主動我一進來國會我們就主動把這些都納進來表示我們得以尊重你同意人家結婚就同意人家有他的生育孩子的這個權利所以我們主動是我們的範圍本來是最大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6524.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6536.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
所以我還是要就是說剛剛主席擔心的或是佩玉文提出來的也請想想看同樣一群女性同樣一群夫妻他們的焦慮難道不跟女女跟單女是一樣的狀況嗎謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6540.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6557.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
好謝謝主席那剛因為配議委員這邊好像提到說我們在黨那事實上我們民眾黨是一個應該算是唯一一個完全沒在黨的一個政黨我說不管是對女女不管是對單身女性 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6557.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6573.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
不管是對有代孕需求的我們對這些只要有生育需求的人我們都是大開方便之門所以我們完完全全的沒有在擋那為什麼我們會大開一個方便之門呢因為我們知道這些想要生育小孩 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6573.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6591.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
但是在生理上在性別上有困難的人他想求而求不得的那種折磨跟渴望我們看到這一群人的心聲所以這也就是為什麼昭芝姐她在立法院積極的推動人工生殖法而我坐在她身邊我也覺得我應該要給 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6592.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6619.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
趙姿姐力量我應該要給這些想求而求不到的人一個力量這些想求而求不到的不只是民主進步黨委員這邊所關注的女女或者是單身女性不只是這樣而已還有那些在暗夜裡啜泣哭泣的這些帶孕的孕夫妻的一個需求那所以這邊真的很希望這個我們民主進步黨政府這邊能夠將心比心 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6622.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6634.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
能夠感同身受如果膽女跟這個女女的部分他們的需求我們可以協助他完成那這些有代孕需求的Why not以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6639.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6654.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
好因為我剛剛才回來但是我剛剛聽了一下就是說因為我想請教一下我們剛剛其實已經在一開始就已經有表決了我們應該是今天不討論待運我們現在是待運脫鉤處理今天應該是先針對於到高度公司的部分來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6656.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6673.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
那我也要再澄清一下剛剛有聽到說我們民主進步黨請聽到安業哭泣的不孕夫婦的這個需求我想大家在這裡其實並沒有否定現實中有不孕夫妻有這樣子的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6674.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6688.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
我想這個是大家都很清楚的我們的態度也是這樣所以才會說是不是脫鉤用另外一個專法來處理好那如果說今天為什麼要做這一個脫鉤處理呢最重要的是因為它會影響到的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6690.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6717.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
其他可能被剝削的贫穷的经济弱势的女性啊这件事情已经讲了很多次了可是一直没有你们一直不回答民众党一直不去面对大家提出来的这些疑义不管是弱势女性的剥削问题商业契约的问题然后还有这个儿少最佳利益的问题一直不回答然后一直用这一种好像民进党都不在乎其他人的需求其他人的困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6718.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6722.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
那這些事情真的發生的時候到底該怎麼辦呢我覺得這個問題是民眾黨應該要自己來回覆的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6728.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6751.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
主席謝謝你我剛剛一開始為什麼就拜託主席也謝謝主席成全我讓我一上去先把整個大架構處理清楚因為剛剛這個張委員一直說我不回答我今天站出來剛剛一開始程旭第一個發言就是說我有責任我們提出的我有責任告訴大家你們的餘力戰那我們怎麼來解決所以我們才說我們設了四道防線 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6752.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6772.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
那個集合健康的剛性防線我們怎麼樣嚴格限制你哪裡有配套還有絕對的這個流產跟終止權還有根本就是在第二大防線雙維施制度還有這個強制的公正的這個制度等等然後這個金家園為了不要流商業化 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6772.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6782.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我們把這個費用有一個專務專款由第三機構來處理而且這個費用不能是要有一個上限由政府機關來處理而且要強制投保那整個剩餘過程大家委員很多指責事實上你們的過程當中我們的這個責任從 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6790.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6817.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
之前到這個生產完之後所有的之後的產物護理甚至需要心理支持這個都全部包含在裡面了那小朋友的部分大家最擔心當然孩童最佳例一直是我們最關心的孩子就是他的侵權責任要非常清楚這件事情很多國家就是讓人民到其他海外國家去做回來又補作了一個侵權證侵權的有關侵權確定的一個法案是補過來的歐洲很多國家是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6818.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6846.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
所以這次我們就是正式把大家的擔憂跟焦慮就是這樣這個適從的防衛之下寫下來如果大家我剛剛一開手我就上去講你們今天擔心的每一件事如果你們有機會讓我們逐條看你們擔心說是不是在我這一條我可以明確地指出來是哪一條都這樣保障大家有意見還可以再加我覺得沒有說我們不負責我們沒有負責就是我想要負責今天才會提出這樣的法案這個法案我可以大家保證是事實上目前最嚴格的 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6850.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6866.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我還是要再重申 委員會剛才已經表決決議本次審查不處理代理孕母的相關條文那大家委員的意見我們也就是讓大家充分表達可是也完成表決了 請尊重委員會的決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6872.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6884.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
基本上我是剛才主席剛剛是說我先發言抱歉請尊重主席的裁決就是說我尊重我也支持主席的一個看法因為其實我們一開始就已經表決了那表決就是剛剛的決議就是變更議程了 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6886.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6910.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那今天呢民眾黨的委員們陳委員或邱委員要表達發言其實我們也都讓你們去發言但是我認為我們應該是還是要回到一開始的決議就是我們今天要去處理這一個脫鉤的那個人工生殖板女性的版本我覺得這個部分還是要回到決議啦不然大家的表決就失去它的意義了嘛好不好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6913.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6913.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
代理運模 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6927.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6929.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那我也跟相關的專家跟相關的NGO團體討論過那他們覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6955.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6980.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
黃婕的這個版本看起來最能夠說清楚黃婕版本這個部分是婚姻關係要有冒號指明法婚姻關係或司法院釋字第七四八號解釋施行法第二條關係之女性雙方當事人這樣子就把目前的同性婚姻的女性跟明法的婚姻關係都涵蓋進去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6981.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7004.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那另外就是受訴配偶冒號只接受人工生殖之婚姻關係存續中之雙方當事人括號以下簡稱配偶括號那我想我們進入這個實質討論才會有進展要不然我們今天就會變成不斷的在糾纏在剛剛就是那個希望脫鉤的 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7006.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7027.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
事情上的那個主題那今天這麼多的委員這麼關切人工生殖法希望先處理有共識的部分就會變得沒有進度還是希望主席可以尊重多數的意見謝謝我先請部會回應一下因為剛剛除了代孕以外黃婕委員范雲委員吳佩儀委員還有本席的意見先回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7041.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7060.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
報告召委跟委員主要是在名詞定義的部分在院版的版本對於性別的這個定義是定義的比較明確一點點那當然委員的版本其實用一些受訴人或者是配偶比較中性的定義去定義這樣的名詞 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7061.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7089.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那這個部分行政機關會有一些疑慮是關於跨性別的這個配偶在使用上的還有後續的一些親子關係的一些疑慮所以那這部分我們是不是也可以請司法院或內政部表示一下意見來保部內政部司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7095.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7111.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
好剛剛基本上我們是比較建議採取行政院的版本因為整個行政院版本的前面跟後面他的體系是一致的好那因為黃劫委員的版本當然從文藝上來看確實是能夠比較不至於對這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7114.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7134.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
是78號解釋的關係的當事人造成一種歧視但是能不能跟後面的條文相配合這個要做一個很整密的法規檢視不然如果文字上出現一些脫漏的話到時候事後上可能會產生一些疑慮啦這是我們比較擔心的那正部有沒有麥克風 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7139.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7165.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
主席各位員那涉及到內政部的部分當然會有依這個七四八號解釋施行法第四條辦理結婚登記的部分那這個部分其實不管是移民法或七四八號解釋施行法那這個完成結婚登記之後當然就會以法律成立這個相關的這個身份關係所以這個條文就條文本身我們內政部沒有意見那我們就是尊重衛福部這邊的看法謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7175.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7198.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
我們現在是根據 我還是在重申根據行政院的版本提出我們有一些不同一點也有不足的地方那第二件事情剛剛有幾位委員當然我也謝謝你們說要專法你們不是說反對要專法要脫鉤但是我必須說這件事我們從第一會期就開始了甚至是上一屆的上一屆第十屆的會期就開始了 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7199.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7218.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
這個邱太元部長當時就說要專法脫鉤但是我要提醒不論是國民黨執政還是民進黨執政其實都有很成功的順利的把這個單元放在人工生整套人工生殖法這套人工生殖法包含單元的人工生殖法事實上在國建都有省署長隨時都可以去看到所以基本上我們覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7223.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7245.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那個專法已經在將近兩年前說要專法但是迄今部長為什麼你今天空手帶著現在這個版本來你為什麼沒有帶你必須概括承受啊衛福部同意的專法在哪裡呢我沒有看到啊他在公開在我們的委員會上說啊他用專法脫鉤啊那今天在委員會繼續脫所以拖延的並不是民眾黨啊拖延的從來都不是民眾黨啊那個版本出來過啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7251.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7275.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
在吳昭君署長的時代他被要求已經把完整的法案都寫過啦那你們不准我說10年前10年前國民黨時政時代也都寫過啦邱淑儀署長時代也都寫過啦完整的寫進去啊啊如果你要透過為什麼部長你這麼不負責任你今天就帶只帶這個一小部分來那個部分是我同意的但是你沒有帶專法來啊我們今天有機會審啊我們有機會審啊你為什麼沒有帶過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7278.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7299.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
所以我們希望有關這一條再回到這一條那個民眾黨員的再修正動議我希望按照我們的這個名詞我想說是不是就不用完整的在讀按照我們這個名詞把幾個名詞完整完整然後用這個人工秀玉佩戴植物集齊相關技術然後包括這個秀術配偶秀術慰問夫妻佩戴然後捐贈人 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7301.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7321 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
等等我們也有完整的這個名詞定義啊我們也覺得我們這部分寫得非常清楚啊包括代理運輸代孕生殖啊人工生殖機構然後代孕服務機構代孕定型化契約的定義代孕子女的定義我們寫得這麼完整還有包括居間這個代孕服務機構我們的原來的這個寫得這麼完整為什麼這些名詞不能被採用呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7327.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7331.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我再次提醒委員會剛才已經表決決議本次審查不處理代理孕母相關條文如果要表達意見我們尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7355.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7378.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那可是也請尊重委員會的決議接下來黃婕委員發言之後林淑芬委員發言之後范園委員發言來黃婕委員好那是不是拜託我們現場的所有委員大家尊照一下今天開會時一開始的決議好不好因為如果大家都不尊照決議那大家坐在這裡就是浪費時間沒有辦法走下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7379.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7397.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
我覺得這個前提非常重要剛剛一開始就已經講清楚今天要把這個帶領母相關的條文脫鉤了那我們就好好審查目前的所有的文字就好了那所以拜託等一下我們不希望再有委員再提跟條文無關的文字拜託 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7398.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7425.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那我要跟衛福部講一下還是希望我有提我的版本那剛剛其實有很多位委員也都是表達說支持我的條文的內容所以在這邊請我們衛福部再一次審慎的考慮使用我的版本那我的版本裡面第一個提的是婚姻關係的定義統稱為配偶然後刪除這個女同性雙方這種分裂的用語第二個受訴者的定義寫訴訴配偶中以其 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7426.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7451.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
子宮懷孕及分娩之一或瘦數未婚女性來取代你們院版原本的瘦數配偶女方跟女性的瘦數者那這個內容其實我之前都已經跟衛福部談過了我希望說今天在這邊我就不要再花太多時間講但是希望說衛福部可以審慎的考慮我的版本其實是比較完整的 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7455.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7458.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
請不要干擾人家你們可以不要干擾我們審查的過程嗎剛剛決議不是你剛剛說的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7464.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7484.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
你們為什麼要干擾會議進行啊就是說人工生殖法這麼多期待人工生殖法的女生現在就是要故意杯葛人工生殖法有共識的部分啦你們現在在拖的就是單身女性的權益就是這些女同志配偶的權益你們就是在拖不孕婦的權益你們自己可以提專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7493.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7496.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
歐盟2015年歐盟2015年歐盟2015年歐盟2015年 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7656.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7656.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7805.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7810.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7872.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7872.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
8107.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
8118.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
感谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
8263.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
8276.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
繼續開會 繼續審查請不要干擾開會 回去座位坐好民進黨募收不贏人啊開會了啦 開會好了賴清早安會討論的也是你陳昭芝說要開會討論現在又卡在這裡不讓大家開會來我們繼續審查第三條動員一個國民黨來看看啦國民黨也不支持代理運動員一個國民黨來看看啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
8296.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
8310.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
第三條 各位委員有沒有 啊怎麼就跑了各位有沒有意見 沒有意見的話我們就要照那個 第三條保留團隊 那就表決我們現在進行表決 採用舉手表決 表決前先清點在場出席委員人數 清點人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
8331.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8337.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
你叫國民黨來啊 叫外國黨來啊我們外委員會的人都來啊你叫宗教來啊 你沒看啊你都沒辦法看了 你是王 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8348.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8349.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
你給我賣招牌的錢下好 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8383.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8384.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
要精神勝利法 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8414.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8422.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
在場出席委員 九人不含主席 先開始表決贊成者請舉手贊成者請舉手 就是院板 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8434.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8446.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我們剛剛有說是不是用這個黃捷的版本來表決衛福部有意見嗎因為如果接受我們就表決先問一下衛福部有沒有意見如果沒有意見的話修正動力對就以這個新的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8454.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8463.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
這個條文我們要保留這個條文要求保留認真開會認真開會剛剛主席已經裁示了好不好要聽點人數認真開會沒有意見的話我們現在贊成者請舉手對 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8485.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8485.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
反對者請舉手 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8498.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8524.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
在場出席委員9人不含主席贊成者7人反對者2人贊成者多數通過接下來續審第4條所以第3條照行政院提案及修正通過我們要求保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8526.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8551.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
好來接下來序程第四條請行政部門說明是第四條的部分主要是定義一個排除的一個狀況那這個排除的狀況主要是只有單純把精子植入體內這個相對是不是那麼符合就是那麼完全的人工生殖輔助生殖所以在這裡他是去定義排除在本法規之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8553.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8575.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
那在委員的版本其實是用比較中性的名詞不是用夫跟妻那這個比較沒有辦法定義他的精子的一個來源所以我們建議由行政院的版本通過委員有沒有意見黃婕委員等一下黃婕委員等一下要發言了對啊可不可以認真開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8581.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8609.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
好那我講一下因為其實我的版本裡面就是把這個膚的精子改成一方的精子那因為我是要講說其實還是有一些跨性別者在手術之前可能會先動精動卵那精卵的跟他的法律性別可能會有沒有辦法不一定是對應的情況所以如果你們是用膚的精子這一類的個案可能到時候就會有適用的爭議但是因為我知道剛剛第三條已經是照院版的修正動議通過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8610.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8617.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
請行政部門回應行政提款同意可以修正為黃姐委員的版本那其他委員有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8634.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8656.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
張雅玲委員因為我的版本其實是配偶之一方啦因為我想問一下這個到底是配偶之一方我覺得好像是好抱歉就是這個配偶之一方會不會更精準的去界定這兩者之間的關係呢還是其實我們不需要這麼清楚的界定我想請教衛福的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8658.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8676.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
來請行政部門回應其實這一條是屬於排除就是說它排除不適用人工生殖因為它是一個比較單純的技術只是單純一方的精子植入另外一方這樣子而已所以在這個簡單的數字它就不再持法規人工生殖法的定義對 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8680.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8698.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
這個其實張委員的意見我是覺得會更精準一點因為他這個概念就是說不適用於本法那不適用本法這裡談的就是人工受孕就跟我們過去要做試管嬰兒是不一樣的這個就是人工受孕所以就是取有 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8699.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8728.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
婚姻關係所以雙方都有金子有卵子然後有子宮然後只是用人工的方式去直接注入所以這個就是過去就叫人工受孕所以如果是剛剛張委員的版本用的是配偶之一方配偶一方之一方之金子直入配偶另一方的這個子宮內我想這個是更精準的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8733.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8752.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
謝謝那也希望大家可以支持我的版本 謝謝所以等一下也要再看螢幕上的到底那個字眼要怎麼樣呈現那陳昭志委員謝謝主席這一條還是會連動到這個代孕這個法案代孕的代理孕母的部分所以我們持保留的態度那行政部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8759.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8787.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
這字眼上剛才前面兩位委員提的黃婕委員跟趙琳委員提的那就是不能用配偶那還要用永久結合關係喔配偶或永久結合關係只一方因為還有兩種一方的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8789.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8814.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
就是我想要理解的就是說到底哪一個方式的適用會是更精緻的然後而且是更能夠去符合的就是一方跟一方我們如果是按照黃婕委員的的版本是一方到另一方體內實施之配偶間他還是他只是把配偶寫在後面而已所以他還是有配偶 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8815.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8837.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那但是我們另外那個四字那個司法院四字的概念那個不叫配偶因為他叫做那個結合關係永久結合關係所以可能那這樣子的話我想釐清因為我們前面也有寫到配偶對 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8844.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8859.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
因為這個是把它排除啦就是排除不在本法的限制啦簡單來講只是把它排除不在本法的討論所以剛剛提到的是不是在黃姐委員的後面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8860.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8878.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那個文字上把它加上一個除了配偶間之外還有就是那個永久結合關係這樣那這樣就都含納了就是有一些涉及到說可能有性別變更的情形下他還是可以適用這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8881.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8909.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
所以現在目前上邊的字眼要用改在後段用黃婕委員的版本取出一方之精子植入另一方體內實施之配偶或永久結合關係間我們叫什麼我們叫結合關係叫結合關係前面已經通過的文字用的叫做結合關係配偶或結合關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8911.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8913.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
先人工生殖這樣好那委員有沒有意見針對於這個提案因為他這個連動到這個待運的部分所以我們還是持保留態度民眾黨持保留的態度民眾黨要求保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8942.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8957.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那其他委員呢一樣沒有的話我們現在還是就是進行表決才用據所表決沒有永久這是在結合關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8988.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
9001.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
各位看一下螢幕上的字有沒有意義我沒有意見我支持沒有意義的話我們就要照這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
9002.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
9017.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
我們要求保留啊這一條我們要求因為會連動啊認真開會剛剛主席就有宣示了嘛對啊認真開會好不好我們認為這個行政院的版本有不足之處所以我們要求保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
9031.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
9043.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
來再對一下那個是不是就照這個這樣子修正的通過贊成我們覺得內容有不足之處所以主張保留哪裡不足之處可不可以說明還會連動連動到什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
9044.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
9067.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
靈動啊什麼我覺得我今天不是機器人要再重複再重申委員會剛才已經表決決議本次審查不處理代理運務相關條文那當然我們充分讓委員可以去表示意見可是也針對於大家的這個不能用一個優勢以待運務這個意見來作為說保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
9072.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
9080.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
所以請尊重委員會的決議看不懂結合關係間那四個字是什麼意思所以要保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
9081.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
9102.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那行政部門請衛福部解釋啊什麼叫做你不懂都已經通過了都有寫得很清楚好嗎我們剛在討論的時候有沒有認真開會啊如果真的還不懂的話可以再請衛福部解釋好我們都願意讓衛福部再陪你請衛福部再解釋一次那秋衛路委員是啊那我就請那個行政部門解釋好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
9104.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
9105.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
結合關係就是一種形容詞那名詞是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
9135.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
9164.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
是名詞結合關係的你後面有個知女性啊知女性雙方當事人對啊啊你講一個結合關係誰知道是什麼東西我知道什麼叫結合關係啊但是結合關係啊你這結合關係間你這中文根本不合格好嗎你如果寫什麼結合關係什麼女性當事人我還同意你寫這什麼結合關係你根本是詞不達意誰看得懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
9167.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
9174.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
真的啊是這樣 這中文的問題不是法律的問題我們沒有吹毛求疵啊 什麼叫結合關係間 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
9184.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
9206.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
因為在第三條名詞定義裡面我們已經清楚的引用了司法院釋字第78號解釋施行法第二條就是相同性別之兩人得為經營共同生活之目的成立具有親密性及排大性質永久結合關係所以我們是引這個司法院釋字第78號 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
9208.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
9222.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
解釋施行法那麼來對比這個夫妻的配偶關係所以這個完全是在第三條的名詞定義剛剛已經通過的文字上的引用 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
9222.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
9251.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
你們的 抱歉啦 你們的748 停 謝謝第二條關係之女性雙方當事人我再講一次第二條關係之女性雙方當事人那你們把第二條關係之女性雙方當事人你們想要把它簡稱結合關係之女性雙方當事人OK我理解所以整個名詞的完整表達是結合關係之女性雙方當事人來到你們的法條內容你們就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
9252.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
9264.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
斷章節前保留前面沒有保留沒有出現後面啊所以就是語意不清啊所以你為什麼不寫結合關係之女性雙方當事人你為什麼要寫一個結合關係間請問這個中文有合格嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
9268.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
9283.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那就完整一點照邱委員的建議去修正對 照我的意思因為我的意思才是能夠反映出這個確實的概念當事人三個字不用結合關係之雙方吧女性雙方 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
9286.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
9310.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
好對他這個建議我們就採納了對啊那除此之外除此之外我們還是要表達因為這是立場的問題這是代言的問題我們還是要為那些不孕症的家庭來代言這裡沒有不孕症的家庭我知道這邊所有民進黨的委員並不贊成但是我們還是要表達出說這個條文裡頭有缺這一塊是一個遺憾的缺口保留好來範圍啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
9316.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
9340.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
其實我覺得衛福部可以考慮就刪除結合關係之女性雙方因為就沒有精子嘛他講的是異性戀喔有喔對可能會喔好OK那這樣子衛福部的那個已經看過各種版本如果覺得這是OK的話其實在說明當中說明清楚就好啦是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
9342.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
9361.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
我是覺得就是用配偶或結合關係兼之人工生殖就好因為他就是雙方啦他就是雙方因為前面已經有一方跟一方了所以這個是兩方之間的關係不需要再去去後面那個不需要那個好 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
9367.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9394.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
主席我們建議這個條文是用我們本黨團提出的那個文字以取出受訴配偶一方之精子植入另一方體內實施之配偶間人工生殖我們主張是用這樣的字眼來處理這一條剛剛前面好像有解釋過為什麼不用配偶這那 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9395.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9415.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
好當然也尊重委員的發言來針對這上面的螢幕上的文字大家有沒有意見沒有有意見有我們要求保留好那我們現在就進行表決才用舉手表決表決前先清點在場出席委員人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9419.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9432.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
9位那在場出席委員9人不含主席先開始表決那贊成現在螢幕上這第4條的那贊成者請舉手好 贊成者7位 反對者請舉手 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9449.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9467.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
反對者兩位 政黨出席委員9人 不含主席 贊成者7人 反對者2人 贊成者多數 通過那這一條呢 第4條呢 就照行政院提案及委員林玉琴黃婕修正動議修正通過 接下來續審第5條 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9472.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9499.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
那請行政部門說明第五條的部分是在原本法案的第四條那在這裡是去定義中央主管機關要召開諮詢會議那在這裡的修正的部分主要是把當初要討論的這些專家領域能夠再去擴增包含除了倫理之外還有法律還有兒童權益還有性別平等這些相關領域加進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9500.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9522.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
那其他就是在文字部分的修正那部分的委員有提案是要授權執法規來訂定相關的這些委員會運作的一些頻率開會的事項那這部分我們覺得以現行來說不一定是需要的但是我們也尊重委員的提案委員有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9531.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9558.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
我這邊還是要特別在條文當中我覺得把憲法的第七條的平等權跟C豆工業的生育權大概我放進去是為了強調人工生殖技術的使用不應該因身份背景不同而有受到差別待遇所以我建議條文上要放這些字眼所以這部分可不可以請我們的行政部門回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9571.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9594.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
這個委員會主要是用人工生殖技術的諮詢性質那當然我們也尊重委員的提案就是在生育權跟平等權的保障只是這個部分可能是會比較著重在技術層面我也知道是技術層面 可是希望把這個概念放進去要去 否則你這邊也 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9596.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9610.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
在對岸邀的人裡邊有特別去考量可是你也寫說要斟酌社會倫理的觀念啊這些省市公共衛生的維護那為什麼不能去放這兩個概念呢那是不是把字眼打上去讓委員確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9613.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9637.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
主席這個部分因為我有收到那個民間團體的建議我覺得蠻好的他說這邊有這個會議還蠻好的就是定期檢討及評估本法執行之情形還是因為沒有說多久那能不能在說明裡面建議就是住民一到兩年不用那麼硬性規範可是有一個定期不要說太久五年十年這樣以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9640.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9650.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
放在說明中就好了所以也請回應說明當中可不可以考慮就是因為我們大家也不希望說時間上太太長都不開會所以你在說明的時候會可以按照 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9656.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9682.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
范議員剛剛提議的嗎 團體的意見是 而且報告昭緯 這個部分我們可以依照行政程序法第159條規定用行政院規則予以規定所以文字的部分我們會在文字立法說明裡頭再說明 那後續也會再有一些行政規則好 那我剛剛提的你們也同意 那字眼是不是可以改上去就讓大家確認 確認之後我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9691.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9708.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
這個簡單的事情來那個在公共衛生之維護後面頓號生育權及平等權之保障然後公共衛生前面的及改成頓號 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9721.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9742.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
委員看螢幕上的這字眼有沒有意見沒有意見我們就要照這個好支持好那沒有意見的話就照行政院提案及委員林月琴提案修正通過接下來續審第6條 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9747.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9764.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
第二章的標題第二章的章名第二章的章名是人工生殖施術藥劍擊方式那這按照原本的章名就是把後面的這個名詞就定義得更清楚而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9766.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9783.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
那委員有沒有意見 贊成沒有意見的話就照行政院提案通過接下來續審第六條第六條的部分是定義就是適用人工生殖的這樣子的一個就是對象的條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9784.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9813.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
那在這邊簡單說明一下就是說在裡面委員有就是建議刪除行政院版本的第6條的第一第一項的第一款及第二款後段期年滿45歲者需經生理評估無不適合懷孕或分娩之疾病或生理狀況那這部分的話我們其實是同意刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9814.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9827.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
滿45歲以上需經生理檢查的相關限制那另外我們也同意委員將第二項前段末未婚女性修正為單身女性這樣子的法案的條文來第六條我們先請陳昭志委員發言之後范雲委員好謝謝謝謝主席我想請問衛福部你在這一項那個第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9845.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9865.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
第一項第二款的第一幕裡面一方經診斷罹患不孕症我想請問石部長還有包括省署長你們都是醫師我請問先天性沒有子宮跟子宮因病變而切除子宮的是不是你身份定義的不孕症他們是不是不孕症這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9866.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9892.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
第二個根據國務部歷年來所有的統計110年人工生殖不應原因統計子宮受損佔不應婦女約一到兩成推估是5000到1萬人有待遇需求而根據流行病學統計人生天生無子宮的發生率大概4000到1萬分之一的機率換句話說台灣現在大概有一萬位女性有先天性無子宮的狀態這類女性在 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9894.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9911.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
符合目前本黨提出的這個年齡要件等限制一定會更少就是在這個所謂的育齡年齡而這樣的修法就是為了保障他們在憲法上的生育權就如同我們要保障女女同志單身女生的這個完全沒有不同好我請問石部長你告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9912.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9929.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
你所定義的不孕症請問先天性沒有子宮或因為疾病切除子宮的是不是不孕症你的所有統計歷來都把這群病人放在裡面你今天為什麼你好好跟我講用醫學的角度跟我講他們是不是不孕症是不是你定義的不孕症 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9933.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9952.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
委員有沒有這裡講的是在講使用自己的子宮而不是只是單純講不韻請石部長石部長你不要默默批發我問你不韻真的是使用自己的子宮我剛現在是請林淑芬委員發言所以等一下我們會請她回應沒有啊因為有好幾個委員好那我在這邊也要 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9953.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9975.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
院版在第六條的立法說明當中有寫到對單身女性設有戶籍及五年內每年居住183天的限制是為確保與我國社會支持系統的長期連結我想強調保障子女追加利益沒有問題但不應該建立在對單身女性的預設之上 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9976.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9992.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
因為單身不代表沒有支持系統婚姻也不當然代表具有比較好的照顧條件如果這樣論述我覺得恐怕造成對單身的歧視是不是我覺得這個說法上要調整否則的話這樣子寫真的你在立法說明裡面講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9996.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
10011.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
請我們的行政部門針對陳昭芝委員的意見回應好 謝謝陳委員的指教那麼對於這個無子宮的女性那麼在醫學上當然是不孕症 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
10012.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
10028.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
但是很遺憾的以目前的醫學上無法協助這個無子宮的女性透過科學醫學的技術使其懷孕分娩所以這個我們要保釋遺憾徐副長你竟然說出這樣的話目前的科學的技術那沒有卵子沒有精子的情況下 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
10040.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
10068.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
你也在幫助他用人工生殖技術在幫助他你竟然講出這樣的話你連第二條人生慾什麼有異常也經由自然生育長等等你完全在講病人但我們今天的法案你整個完全沒有照顧到不孕的病人有困難的病人有疾病的病人你完全放在我們隨位的權利人權我也支持女女同志跟單身女生我也支持你身為一個醫師 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
10071.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
10076.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
你說醫學沒有辦法醫學有辦法全世界三十幾個國家都有辦法維尼台灣沒有辦法維尼石部長沒有辦法嗎是你在阻擋還是沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
10086.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
10112.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
主席 林處分委員主席他這樣講是他的講法沒關係但是就是說其實我們這裡的條款是每一款都要符合嘛那這個這裡是講說這個要使用自己的子宮嘛夫妻雙方要有至少要有一方要有健康的生殖細胞那不使無需同時使用第三人捐贈的精子或卵子 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
10113.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
10142.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
那女童的話至少一方要有健康的卵子無需使用第三人捐贈的卵子那單身女性的話我們在這裡就是說無需使用第三人捐贈的卵子而且能以其子宮懷孕及分娩那所以第一項第一項這是第幾項就是說剛剛講的說有具備那個條件是不是還要再加一個就是必須要有自己的子宮能夠自己懷孕和分娩 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
10143.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
10166.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
因為這樣子才不會去涉及到使用別人的子宮啊我是說夫妻之間你沒有架構一個要使用自己的子宮懷孕和分娩在單身女性你有架構你講的第三款我剛剛講的是第一款第一款也一樣診斷不孕症者對啦但是應該要有一個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
10168.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
10194.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
要在夫妻之間女童或是單身女性我們今天的前提都是要使用自己的子宮懷孕和分娩那這三個三種資格有沒有同時都架構一個只能使用自己的子宮和懷孕分娩夫妻之間的在跟委員說你在第一款第一款就有 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
10195.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
10219.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
第一款就寫得很清楚要以其子宮懷孕及分娩部長你這個得接受員工宣誓就是說你其實有一點亂你看你的第三款他談的林淑芬是談第三款我談的是第一款你一直在迴避第一款第三款你拆開其實這三者同時都要先宣誓都要具備這個所以你的最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
10220.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
10237.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
第一項第二項反正就最下面那一款啦就是你這個都要使用自己的子宮懷孕分娩其實跟第一款加進去就可以了我就整合在一起不管是誰我們都希望用自己的子宮懷孕和分娩 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
10244.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
10263.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
我有那個三個意見喔第一個就是說用語對不對行政院版是用那個未婚喔那是不是修正成單身跟中性因為未婚那如果已婚離婚者據說就會被排除喔那單身其實就包含所謂的未婚或者是離婚這個部分喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
10263.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
10286.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
那另外就是針對單身女性或者是你這邊寫的未婚有一個條件是設限說前5年內就是居住要滿183天以上那我有點不大理解這個意義為何因為其實我們早就開放了單身收養在法律上那可是針對單身收養就沒有規定要每年居住183天 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
10288.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
10306.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
那這邊只針對就是說單身沒有針對夫妻或其他規定要住幾天有點點奇怪如果沒有一個正當的理由會變成是單身歧視因為我們想像如果有單身女性她是外派人員或者是女性留學生那她 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
10306.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
10327.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
就沒有辦法在回國的時候使用這樣子的一個合法的權益所以我想問一下衛福部有什麼正當的理由那能不能考慮就針對單身收養的部分就還有就是夫妻或者是就是同性別配偶的方式一併處理這是第二個意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
10327.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
10350.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
那第三個意見那個行政院的性別平等委員會性別平等委員會建議說好像要避免使用女同性雙方關係因為它不是一個法律上的正確用語能不能用一個更中性的語言譬如說 譬如說 瘦數配偶那如果要指出性別的話可以說相同性別之瘦數配偶以上來 請行政部門回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
10358.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
10374.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
跟委員解釋一下這邊在單身的女性需要居住涉及滿180日的這個3日的這個規定當初是考慮因為在失數前都必須進行子女最佳利益的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
10375.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
10392.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
那因為要考慮這個有沒有辦法在不管是社會經濟還有個人狀況在照顧子女能不能夠提供子女一個好的一個生養的一個環境的時候如果拘留的一個時間過短可能沒有辦法進行有效的一個評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
10393.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10409.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
那當然其實也會考慮在其他的一些社會救助還有一些輔助的一些對象他也有會相對應的一些資格要件的限制所以這個時候這個法條當初在設計的時候其實是有參考相關的一個法條去做設計的 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10414.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10436.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
要我們市部長先回應陳委員嗎?你剛才講的那一項,還是你要再發言?我要再發言,謝謝主席我想請問部長,你這一條的開宗明義就夫妻跟女童得接受人工升職,然後你在第二款的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10437.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10463.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
夫妻據下列情況當然經過診斷是不孕症剛剛他們都在強調有子宮的女性那是已經到第二項了未婚女性符合下款所以他們討論的是未婚女性符合下款的情形因為他們未婚女性她不是不孕症那你明明就是在你前言 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10464.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10474.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
夫妻這些情況下得接受人工生殖為什麼你在第二款第一幕裡面一方經診斷罹患不孕症者你為什麼你訂了這個法你寫在裡面然後你不顧他們你不理不處理你可以講清楚嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10488.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10509.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
這個剛才不是已經講了都要使用自己的子宮而已使用的是未婚是第二項好嗎部長你聽到我講的話最下面未婚未婚女性符合下那個是用自己的子宮那我請教部長你在前面寫的第二款第二款第一幕 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10511.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10522.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
因為你在討論子宮是沒意義的因為他們在討論都是未婚女性的要用自己的子宮來孕育博定你回答我部長你回答我 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10523.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10546.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
林書恩委員發言完之後我們再請行政部門回應各位我們在這裡就是還是一貫的堅持不管你是不孕的夫妻或者是女童或者是單身女性全部都只能使用自己的身體自己的子宮懷孕和分娩這個是我們整個最核心的精神是在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10547.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10564.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
重點就不是你的條件是什麼重點是你必須要用自己的子宮懷孕和分娩啊那 欸 等一下 不好意思 不好意思吳佩玉委員 翻譯完再求回覆 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10565.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10589.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
我要附議剛剛范瑩委員的意見就是現在第6條中使用女同性雙方這個我覺得其實文字上我建議文字就是修改為說雙方至少知一方能以其子宮懷育及分娩這意思其實是一樣的就是你原先是女同性雙方把它改成雙方 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10591.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10602.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
至少一方這樣女同性三個字其實拿掉這個在意義上面定義上面其實是一樣的我的建議的文字修改就是女同性三個字拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10604.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10631.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
謝謝主席那我要回應的也是一個非常簡單的問題就是淑芬委員剛剛一直說第二款的一方經罹患不孕症然後這一款呢可以成為我們中華民國的法律是因為他使用自己的職工那現在問題是法條又沒有以使用自己的職工為要件這恐怕是淑芬委員自己去增加法律所無的要件吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10648.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10659.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
第六條我們現在是我們是在講第二款我們是在講第六條第六條第一項第二款 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10666.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10690.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
黃學芳委員上面已經有寫了嘛就是說妻或雙方至少一方能以其子宮懷孕及分娩就已經寫了嘛所以用自己的子宮而且是每一款都要符合喔抱歉喔每一款都要符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10693.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10693.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
我們要聽誰先講話來不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10704.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10727.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
抱歉因為我們看一下這第六條的第一項其實就已經有寫要符合下列各款情形所以下面各款包含一二這兩款我覺得這邊其實已經寫得蠻清楚了好那我知道為什麼我們講話沒交集因為我們看的一直是現行法然後你們是在講未來你們想修的法的模樣願版 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10737.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10753.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
第一款第一款而且一開頭就想每一款都要符合第一行開中名義就寫要符合都下列各款下列各款 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10760.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10784.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
來現在都要以螢幕上因為大家都有提議的時候他們大家就隨著然後直接打字進去然後到時候給大家確認好看螢幕上的來林淑芬委員主席各位我這樣建議好不好因為他這樣真的很不容易看如果在這裡審查法案的時候大家都難以正確的理解這一條法律的條文究竟是怎麼樣的規範這一些資格那我強烈的建議就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10788.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10804.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
七就是說不管是夫妻或者是女童或者是這個單身女性我們應該單獨寫出一項然後再宣示都是必須要以這個自己的子宮懷孕及分娩這樣子才會架構得清楚啊然後接下來就是必須要符合什麼資格最後就是但是都是必須要用自己的子宮懷孕和分娩 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10816.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10833 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
因為你這樣子我們看不懂第一款跟第二款是什麼關係第一項的第一款跟第二款需不需要同時符合符合下列各款要符合各款啊那你的第二款裡面又有兩種 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10835.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10861.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
哪有這兩種 他說夏立情形之一啊第二款的話是兩者之一都可以啊那為什麼要拆開為什麼不要連單身都放在一起然後正開周明義整合在一起宣誓宣誓給大家一看就知道全部都要用自己的子宮和懷孕和分娩呢我要第一款有寫啊就是至少一方要能夠以其子宮懷孕跟分娩那這個是講有夫妻關係的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10863.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10891.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
好 球衛議員是 那個我剛剛一陣混亂當中我好像聽到民進黨的委員說我們沒有反對代孕只是要在人工生殖法裡頭脫鉤你們的代孕我們沒有反對要用專法然後如果要用專法的話請問一下這裡已經寫死了說一定要有自己的子宮那如果要有自己的子宮我們怎麼去推動代孕你們剛剛不是鼓勵我們怎麼去推動專法你們看要怎麼立 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10892.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10906.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
我們就是反對代孕我們就是反對代孕我們反對使用別人的子宮代孕那如果是這樣為什麼剛要騙我們說這裡先脫鉤然後你們去推專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10910.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10931.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
是不是可以建議主席如果今天還有類似的條文不斷的脫離我們今天該審查的主題然後違背我們一開始的決議的是不是就請主席制止我還是今天變成我是會一直浪費大家的時間每一條都在重複我覺得委員會剛一開始就已經表決決議了那本次審查不代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10940.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10958.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
不處理代理運母的相關條文我們會讓委員充分表示意見 可是不代表事實上是每一題都只要一扯就講那樣 然後就說要保留或講的就沒有辦法聚焦在我們現行行政院提出來的版本就行政院提出來的版本來做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10961.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10989.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
所以請尊重委員會決議請尊重委員會決議我要再次重申請尊重委員會決議否則如果再次這樣的話我們可能就要去打斷因為我們還是尊重你的可是如果你要就請政院提出來的版本要討論什麼意見就像第六條如果是因為這樣我們當然都歡迎大家表達自己的意見可是再次又要去處理到所謂只要一提到沒有代理運募那這就是前面已經表決過啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10991.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
11013.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
所以還是要再次重申請尊重委員會的決議如果再次提到的話我們可能就要打斷你的發言了我們就行政院提出來的版本來做討論以上陳昭志委員謝謝我們就是因為覺得行政院的版本有不足的地方請問不足的就是對它不足的去做討論行政院的版本發表任何意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
11019.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
11043.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我們要求就是回到我們這個我們原來的這個在修正綜藝版本的這個文字啊不印證也是你自己定義啊要符合全部條文也是你自己定義啊我們對於行政院提出的版本我們覺得有不足有偏好有偏向有偏補之處啊你要用行政院版本去做討論啊或是給意見啊沒有問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
11044.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
11072.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
可是不要又再回到原來的啊 那就會變成事實上是一直在兜圈圈啊圈圈的版本就是告訴你不孕症啊 不孕症啊什麼叫做不孕症 我剛剛一開頭 開宗明義我就問他說沒有子宮 生下來沒有子宮跟後天因為疾病 甚至癌症切除子宮的是不是你的不孕症主席那個什麼話 委員這個已經討論夠多集 這內容一直重複我們是不是停止討論 就直接處理好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
11074.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
11098.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
那來這個條文大家看一下螢幕上有沒有意見有沒有意見沒有意見我們要求保留要求保留那我們就反對保留好那我們就現在進行表決採用舉手表決表決前先清點在場出席委員人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
11100.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
11108.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
那個女同性那個未夫婦可以接受可以刪掉嗎如果可以就可以接受 如果沒有的話也沒關係這樣好來經典人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
11127.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
11155.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
好在場出席委員9人不含主席現在開始表決贊成現在螢幕上的條文的贊成者請舉手7位反對者請舉手在場出席委員9人不含主席贊成者7人反對者2人贊成者多數通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
11157.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
11161.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
第6條照行政院提案修正通過 接下來續審第7條 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
11167.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
11193.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
行政機關這邊報告第七條的部分這一條是新增的條文主要是定義第六條的施術的對象他在實行人工生殖的技術的部分那他植入的相關的這些胚胎然後的術士的部分所以在這裡主要是定義他執行的這些技術跟技術的一些內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
11197.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
11220.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
第七條來第七條委員有沒有意見陳昭志委員因為剛才第六條我們是主張保留這條第七條是接續第六條的所以民眾黨也是主張保留其他委員有沒有意見就按照我們在螢幕上放的字眼有沒有意見沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
11223.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
11227.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
那我們現在進行表決 採用舉手表決 表決前先清點在場的出席委員人數在場出席委員9人不含主席 現在開始表決 贊成螢幕上的條文的內容請舉手第7條 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
11252.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
11267.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
那反對者請舉手在場出席委員9人 不含主席 贊成者7人 反對者2人 贊成者多數通過那第7條造型政院提案修正通過 接下來我們續審第8條 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
11270.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
11287.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
第八條的部分是在定義接受人工生殖技術的這些對象在施術之前必須經過主管機關指定的專業機構進行人工生殖子女的最佳利益評估那跟其他相關的這個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
11288.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
11316.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
那關於委員 專委有一個那個說證動議的部分是對於這個專業機構不應該跟人工生殖機構有一個互相隸屬或同機構的一個現象那再來就是在評估這個執行業務的時候也要遵守利益迴避的一些原則那在這邊行政機關建議是不要納入主條文我們可以用執法規進行相關的這個規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
11320.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
11327.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
好 我先補充剛才的第7條的宣告是照行政院提案通過那第8條委員有沒有意見黃婕蕙委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
11332.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
11357.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
好那这个内文我是没有意见但是立法理由里面我是希望做一点调整然后我有提一个附带决议我先念下我的附带决议就是针对第八条锁定之专业机构评估机制请卫生福利部已于订定相关执法时因明定评估机构跟人工生殖医疗机构之间的利益回避规范确保专业机构之独立性 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
11357.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
11372.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
子法中應納入反歧視條款明定評估指標不得因受訴對象之性傾向性別認同婚姻狀況身心障礙而有不當之差別待遇以落實平等權並保障民眾的生育自主 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
11373.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
11388.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
好那我要講一下為什麼我對立法理由有意見是因為裡面你們有特別提到說說我國常工時的勞工環境然後針對單身女性說要詳細檢視其照顧子女的能力跟家庭支持的系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
11389.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
11416.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
那我必須要講說這個長工時事不論你是什麼樣的家庭只要是雙薪的配偶都是同樣的一個因素那為什麼要特別針對單身女性來審查那我認為這樣子的心態其實就是針對婚姻狀態來做分類的差別待遇這個潛台詞就是說單身女性照顧能力是不是就比較弱然後你要多一層的檢驗才可以才說她才有資格當媽媽 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11418.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11435.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
所以我覺得這個其實立法理由是有一點問題的那這樣子的核心價值就是在說單身女性好像是比較不完整的家庭所以我希望說立法理由可以稍微調整一下並且通過我的附帶決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11437.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11465.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
來讓這一些真的認為自己能夠生育還給他們自己身體自主權的女性都可以有完整的權利謝謝因為負債決議等於是後邊在才會討論負債這邊也要提也要講就人工生殖制度不應該只是保障成人的生育需求也必須確保人工生殖子女能夠在安全穩定的環境當中成長當然我們也知道可是子女的最佳利益的判斷不應該建立在 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11466.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11494.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
對特定身份的預設之上因為我想剛剛黃姐委員提的也是跟我一樣相同的就院版立法說明當中竟然會出現就建議說單身女性諮詢重點應包含由第三方分擔照顧的可能然後呢詳細檢查其照顧子女能力及家庭支持系統那意思是在講單身女性就是沒辦法照顧孩子嘛因為這樣文字當然就是真的充滿了對單身者照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11495.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11520.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
子女能力的懷疑以及對不同身份受訴者的差別待遇我覺得衛福部應該要針對於這個說明要去做調整避免我們的使用歧視性的論述還有再來我覺得也應該確保評估機構人員不會因為婚姻狀態性傾向或性別認同等受訴人的背景而在評估上有差別待遇是不是可以請衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11522.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11545.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
將相關的反歧視措施納入在你的執法的規範當中他針對這次的放寬人工生殖的適用對象未不也應搭配提出子女最佳利益的評估流程來涵蓋新的適用樣態那還有我覺得評估機構不應該在進行人工生殖的醫療單位存在利益關係避免過度輕易通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11547.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11558.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
指引最佳利益的评估所以我的版本当中本来就有特别写到利益回避的条款刚刚没有听到你们要不要针对我的版本去纳入所以我们要求评估机构不能够 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11561.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11577.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
與醫療機構有隸屬關係 且當事人有權申請人員的迴避 建議放入到條文當中那剛剛范雲委員是有舉手我們先范雲委員之後 然後雅琳還有 雅琳委員還有陳培宇委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11578.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11593.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
我的第一個意見是因為剛剛已經把那個未婚女性改成單身女性的所以這個第八條這邊衛福部是不是能夠接受就直接改了就是未婚改成單身因為要包含離婚的女性第二個就是我第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11593.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11615.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
跟黃婕委員的意見一樣就是未來應該要在不管是說明或者是附帶決定說明這個評估單位的要避免利益迴避的問題就是利益迴避衝突的問題那因為這個其實會是醫療的相關利潤所以如果有這樣子的一個專業機構要評估的話那要避免 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11616.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11645.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
利益的衝突那另外就評估人員的專業資格也應該明定譬如說社工師心理師兒扶專家還有反歧視的議題好謝謝好那這個部分其實我也是想要去強調因為我們其實在做這個兒少最佳利益評估的時候應該是要去從知識性評估建立結果的分級改善及資源連結的機制而且是對所有家庭一體適用不要特別針對女性 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11645.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11648.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
有特别另外的一些评估 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11677.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11702.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
在这个性评处行政院性评处其实也有提到在我们的评估制度里面呢其实要纳入多元性别及多元家庭的观点这目前在立法说明里面其实也没有看到那在相关的一些人间团体其实也有去强调就是说其实重点应该是要放在家庭是否具有这个支持系统也能够照顾安排我们能不能协助他们取得所需要的医疗心理亲子等等的责任 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11702.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11702.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
陳佩儀委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11726.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11754.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
好谢谢主席这个第八条的部分跟刚刚黄洁雅琳还有范园委员还有主席你自己刚刚讲的我觉得是卫福部在做这个相关立法理由的说明的时候真的会让人闻到满满的歧视味那我要说明一下所谓歧视的味道到底是什么意思我当然理解并且尊重大家这几年对儿少权益的保护所以我们的写法说捍卫子女最佳利益这件事情我相信各界都会赞同 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11755.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11781.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
可是问题是就在于所谓的子女最佳利益评估会不会产生相对的剥夺感或是有阶级的问题那会变成一个反效果那目前呢我必须要说实话自然生产的部分其实都没有任何的评估大家爱怎么生就怎么生那可是目前我们针对未成年收养需要经过法院认可那我可以理解这是因为要结束前一段亲子关系所以我们透过法官家事法官的系统 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11782.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11805.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
他们有足够的专业训练跟实务经验我们协助孩子找到一个新家庭那可是目前呢我们看到卫福部的草案里面针对负责子女最佳利益评估的是所谓的中央主管机关指定的专业机构可是对于所谓的专业机构还有评估人员都只是授权执法我觉得光是在这里大家就会有很多的担心哦 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11805.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11835.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
那再来你们的写法说审着一切情况为评估我觉得这过于的抽象因为审查标准可能会带有歧视或是有阶级的差异又或者是你们的立法理由提到的考量我国长工时的劳动环境这些事情我会说这些根本就没有统一的标准如果最后评估的结果变成是评估人员的自由心证那我们如何保障每一个想要藉由人工生殖手术产下自己小孩的人我觉得这个写法非常的荒谬 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11836.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11863.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
再来立法理由里面还提到省着一些情况这个部分我会说这样操作的结果会不会变成最后只要足够有钱或是有足够家庭支持的人才有资格使用人工生殖会不会让人工生殖的技术变成是上层阶级的人才可以使用的医疗技术那与其用这些理由协助人工生殖的使用而为什么不是协助他们解决问题我觉得这个写法也很令人担心再来我要 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11865.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11883.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
我要鄭重的跟衛福部講一個事情我們辦公室過去一直以來都收到非常多的陳情是關於什麼是關於所謂的評估機構如果他今天有偏見他有刻板印象但是他可能在成為衛福部的所謂第三方專業機構的時候他展現出一個假中立的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11884.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11906.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
但是他实质上在工作的时候他采用大量的刻板印象或偏见在处理这些评估那我们要如何保障他们的权益我举一个例子之前就有同志团体跟我们成情当有同志家庭想要收养子女的时候如果因为收养的社工或是收出养的团体他有特定的宗教信仰他有特殊的价值意识形态 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11907.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11923.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
所以只要是同事家庭要去申请收养就通通都不会过而这件事情未来会不会在人工生殖专业机构评估的时候再一次的发生我觉得是非常非常有可能的所以我想等一下我们会认同黄秋月提的附带决议也好或者是刚刚岳勤主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11924.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11950.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
所說的這個部分到底要怎麼修改還是要拜託衛福部說明所以我強烈的建議衛福部必須要說明目前所謂專業機構還有評估人員的相關規劃還有確保我們剛剛前面講的這些問題不論是階級的歧視性傾向的歧視相對剝奪感這些都不可以發生還有就是如何有反歧視的條款在裡頭避免專業機構或者是評估人員歧視的行為發生好 以上謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11951.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11962.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
現在黃秀芳委員發言發言後就林淑芬委員發言謝謝就剛剛很多委員有特別提到就是這個專業機構那我是擔心的就是說這個專業機構我們希望說它是非常這個中立客觀的第三方那我們現在目前國內這個說出養 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11973.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11988.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
都已經很整個評估都很完整那是不是這個專業機構我覺得應該要好好的去規範那另外就是說這個專業機構就是未來這個民眾他如果要做這個人工生殖的話那經過這個專業機構評估完那 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11993.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
12013.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
我擔心的是這個專業機構評估跟另外一個專業機構評估的是完全不一樣的所以是怎麼去規範這個專業機構任何想要做這個人工生殖的這個民眾那他是不是只能一個專業機構的評估或者是可以多方的專業機構的評估林所幹委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
12018.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
12033.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
我想大家都講的大概差不多了所以我在講說我們是不是要處理其實正應該要處理的是在立法說明欄裡面要明定這些專業的評估機構要有性別意識其實要具有這個性別意識他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
12033.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
12052.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
他們才不會帶著這個社會上普遍的對女性單身女性的文化上的偏見和歧視或者是對這個女童的這個歧視和偏見所以正應該要放進去裡面的我還是覺得這個評估機構的性別意識要具備好 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
12054.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
12083.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
委員都 憲法也好 先請回應 第一個是我本來的條文就有加甚至剛剛黃姐委員也有講說這個評估機構利益迴避 那我的條文本來就有寫 想問一下你們可不可參採的還有另外一個是立法說明這一塊 剛剛很多委員都提到有各方的對於有歧視的這一塊甚至所謂委員剛剛講的你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
12085.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
12093.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那機構有沒有性別的一個歧視的概念那也要考量在立法說明所以請我們行政部門回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
12096.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
12118.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
首先對於這個立法說明的部分那麼應該在這個對於單身女性上的這個歧視的說明我想這個應該通通把它刪除就是在我們立法說明裡面去參酌德國立法研究報告等等這些文字都不應該存在我想這個我們競表同意把它刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
12119.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
12142.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
那麼至於在這個剛剛黃婕維也有提有一個附帶決議那另外林岳勤委員也有具體的條文的文字那我是建議說那麼在這個迴避的原則上面呢我們覺得是支持但是是不是一定要做到這個醫療機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
12145.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
12173.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
不同醫療機構或完全無隸屬關係因為這個涉及到權益就是利益迴避是一定要所以我建議的文字是這樣就是在第一項的後段審酌一切情況為評估然後分號專業機構及其評估人員執行業務時應遵守利益迴避之原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
12176.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
12194.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
那就把這個這個把它入法了那至於在執法上我們怎麼去執行的時候我們再來落實剛剛黃姐委員的這個附帶決議我們再去落實但是把這個文字因為未來在利益迴避其實利益迴避存在於很多情況都會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
12195.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
12219.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
那但是利益迴避的方式不見得一定要以非機構非相同機構一定要多的另外的機構或者是完全無隸屬關係才能夠做到利益迴避所以我們是把它改成就是專業機構及其評估人員那個評估的人員其實更重要那個人更重要所以專業機構及其評估人員進行評估時 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
12226.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
12226.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
他應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
12236.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
12255.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
專業機構及其評估人員進行執行業務執行業務因為他這個就是在對他就是在做評估嘛因為前段就是在講他要以這個人工生殖子女的最佳利益勝作一切情形為評估啦因為執行業務這個就很廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
12258.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
12286.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
好那就是進行評估的時候應落實應遵守啦應遵守如果是按照委員的文字是用應遵守應遵守利益迴避原則這樣委員講的性別是不是直接就定在不用在立法室喔好啊那就應拒別從應開始逗號後面紅色的字逗號後面應 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
12288.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
12307.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
因具性別意識並遵守利益迴避原則可以可以因具多元性別意識並遵守利益迴避原則還是說評估人員應有性別平等相關訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
12312.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
12320.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
原則定好不好那其他委員還針對第8條還有沒有要表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
12321.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
12341.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
主席我補充一下好不好我們第二項特別提到現在在處理第一項嘛那第二項就是說第一項的專業機構與其評估人也應具備其資格嘛會指定評估之內容方式等等好那這個全部都授權給中央主管機關嘛對不對那部長要不要說一下這個機構這個機構全國到底幾家 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
12347.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
12367.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
因為那個高齡的有想要生的這樣的一個婦女朋友們基本上其實在跟黃金時間賽跑你這個評估的機構全國有幾家你要評估多久你要怎麼評估這個可能要請部長還是居然說明清楚一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
12372.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
12395.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
我們當然是措選給你們去訂啦但是到底你要一家嗎不知道 北中 南東 離島跟委員說明其實我們現在就有人工生殖機構啦那我們的想法上當然就是人工生殖機構呢他現在要做最好他要另外一組人來提供這個評估啦他就有利益迴避但是他在同一個機構是無所謂 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
12397.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
12409.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
或者是有專業的機構我們未來就會要求人工生殖機構就要進行這個評估所以現行的那個人工生殖機構一共多少幾十一百零多 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
12412.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
12428.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
100多家啦然後一年大概有6萬件啦所以以這樣的100多家來執行試購所以我剛剛才會講說不要說一定要不同機構你不同機構那個量能就會有問題然後我們只要呢讓他 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12429.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12443.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
我們會訂一些課程還有一些利益迴避原則然後他去落實這樣就可以我是覺得這樣比較具體可行可以兼顧到子女最佳利益又在實務上不會產生卡關的現象好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12448.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12455.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
范委員之後林淑芬委員我想直接建議行政院在那個說明的123第三項的最後從並參酌德國立法院報告說什麼長工時這些還有為什麼會動軟這些原因其實不相干不需要針對單身這個部分的別人的研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12473.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12499.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
特別說明這麼多不相干的內容那建議就直接刪除就好就避免大家覺得看了這個內容是不是單身歧視或什麼同意那我們這個性別意識可不可以再修正一下抱歉我再去建議一次就是說我們是把它改成因評估人員應具有性別平等意識並遵守利益迴避原則這樣比較簡單了就是應具 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12501.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12513.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
具有性別平等意識那因為多元性別是包含在性別平等當中所以用這個性別平等比較直接這樣性別平等意識沒有意見委員還沒意見沒有意見的話我們這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12522.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12537.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
就照 調問我們意見但是我想請教一下因為剛剛我問就是有關於那個第三方萬一就是造成他們不利的決定的時候他們的申訴機制這個之後是可以在哪裡去處理這樣子他這個要認定啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12541.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12568.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那就我們定在第三項的授權法規裡面可以把它寫進去程序裡面就會有申訴因為有評估是內容方式程序嘛程序裡面我們可以把它訂入有申訴的那個程序好 第八條就依行政院及委員林月琴提案修正通過那接下去審第三張的張銘 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12573.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12589.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
第三張張明是人工生殖機構實施人工生殖及管理那建議以院版通過委員有沒有意見沒有就第三張張明造型正願提案通過接下來續審第九條 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12591.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12607.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
第9條的部分是原本法條裡頭第6條那在這個部分它主要是在訂定人工生殖機構申請的許可程序費值跟管理那基於原本的法條我們其實有做了一些修正那是在第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12609.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12629.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
一個機構以外之醫療機構應申請主管機關許可後使得申請喔那在第二項原本法條裡頭第二項供應法人因為現實實務面已經沒有沒有這個需求了所以我們也刪除了那另外在第五項的部分我們也著修主管機關對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12630.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12642.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
而第一項及第二項機構應每三年進行審查並應公布審查結果那其審查相關作業辦法由主管機關定制本議員有沒有意見好 林淑芬委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12650.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12674.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
好 這個地方有我們的修正的版本那我們是希望說我們的差異是在於一二三第三項因為很多人不是以捐贈為目的去動亂那這種狀況裡面你知道一次的經費非常的多可能涉及到要十幾萬元這樣子所以坊間的這麼多人私底下 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12675.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12694.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
是自己給自己預留未來然後去動亂的狀況裡面然後動亂的機構就目前在法律架構沒有任何的相關的規範而且保存的費用還有冷凍卵子的品質到底最後到底是怎麼樣也都沒有任何的規範所以為了使這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12697.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12709.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
近期沒有辦法進行人工繩子規劃然後要動卵的這一些卵子可以受到保障所以我們希望就是說進行更高一點的規管要規範那我們就希望說醫療機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12713.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12733.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
現行的人工生殖機構對儲存生殖細胞或胚胎在品質管理上沒有規定那為了確保這個胚胎或者是卵子的這個品質我們在第四項也歸增訂從事人工生殖或提供非為捐贈目的而冷凍儲存生殖細胞的醫療機構或公益法人 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12734.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12747.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
要申請許可而且在申請許可時的時候要提供相關的文件包含生殖細胞或胚胎儲存的品質管理計畫那計畫的內容也要包含內外部的監測機制等等然後讓我們這一些大家都花費相當巨額的錢然後去動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12758.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12783.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
那你以為等到相當年齡以後你要來做人工受精結果那個品質是有一定的品質保證的所以這個我們要求最後一項主管機關對前面所訂的這些所許可的這些機構要定期查核查核以外要公佈查核結果其查核相關辦法由主管機關定之那公佈這個相關的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12786.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12807.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
公布查核結果的話其實市場上人家就知道哪些機構是好機構哪些是品質很差的所以我們是希望說納管這一些機構更確保這一些非捐贈目的的卵子或者是胚胎的品質是受到保障的 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12812.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12837.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
來行政部門請回應是我們同意林淑芬委員的提案喔那所以是不是在第九條的第一項後面加入就是林淑芬委員建議的醫療機構應申請主管機關許可後使得實施非以捐贈為目的之生殖細胞冷凍遁套儲存及提供之行為句號 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12842.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12865.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
有全部都放進去嗎因為包括要公佈查核結果定期查核後面最後那他們許可的時候要包含這個品質管理計畫然後我們的立法說明欄要放進去因為品質管理計畫必須要涵蓋內外部的監測機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12879.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12897.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
在第四項的部分再加上主管機關對第一項至第三項機構應為定期查核並公佈查核結果查核辦法由主管機關定職 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12904.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12909.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
好這個我們再來處理立法說明欄也要整合齁不 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12945.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12950.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
你把它秀出來我念給你們改你把它秀出來我念給你打 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12970.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12972.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
沒沒沒 你現在兩項 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12987.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
13002.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
前兩項許可吧你這個是前兩項許可來你到從前面前兩項第一項第二項好來然後前兩項前兩項許可你怎麼怎麼把它刪掉了前兩項許可 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
13008.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
13031.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
等一下我們來討論一下那個要寫在哪裡不對啦不對怎麼會跑掉啦你那個1234第四項你現在第三項這個第三項是寫在最後一項第三項先剪下來放到最後一項對好 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
13039.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
13053.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
好那這裡就是前兩項前二項許可自由項極限你現在的第三項有標到對前二項許可自由項極限好然後再往再往下好好然後再往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
13064.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
13090.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
第二項啦第一項是第二項機構應為定期長合併好那這個我想請教那個林淑雯委員的是您的提案裡面有包含公益法人也可以接受金子捐贈儲存或提供之行為是不是這樣是要加一個公益法人 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
13091.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
13118.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
这个第二项不是跟你们的一样吗不一样不一样我们是只有医疗机构没有公益法人医疗机构我看版本是一样你的差别就是你们你多了一个对公益法人对你有第二项就是公益法人你的第三项我们已经放进去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
13120.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
13149.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
是不是就還是維持醫藥機構就好這是你們原來的版本是有的對對我們就不要好了好那就是現在我們的那個那個修正的文字可以請大家再看一下好那我們看一下那是不是再看再從頭看一下文字那最後一項你這個裡面沒有最後一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
13159.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
13168.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
政府機關要定期查核 公佈查核結果喔對啦 比較大粒啦是我 是我 是我 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
13193.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
13204.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
醫療機構應申請中央主管機關許可為人工生殖機構後使得14人工生殖接受生殖細胞之捐贈儲存或提供第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
13206.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
13222.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
医疗机构因申请主管机关许可后使得实施非以捐赠为目的之生殖细胞冷冻储存及提供之行为第三项前二项许可之有效 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
13223.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
13247.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
期間為三年期間屆滿能力繼續實施前項行為者應於屆滿三個月前申請許可及申請許可之條件程序審查基準廢紙管理生殖細胞或胚胎儲存之品質管理計劃及其他應遵行實項之辦法中央主管機關定制 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
13248.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
13271.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
第四項主管機關對第一項及第二項機構因為定期查核並因公布查核結果其查核相關作業辦法由主管機關定制然後第二項前兩項許可之有效期間為三年期間能實施前項應該是前二項行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
13274.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
13277.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
因為它是兩個許可兩種不同的機構好那我問一個問題就是說最後一下這個要公佈查核結果是要中央主管機關還是地方主管機關是不是最後一下改成中央主管機關講得比較明確好好不好中央主管機關應公佈查核結果好 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
13305.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
13311.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
就是第四項的頭開始的時候中央 加個中央 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
13337.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
13358.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
好委員對於螢幕上的字眼有沒有意見這樣重演管理才是對的啦好沒有意見齁那就照行政提案局委員民署分委員修正通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
13367.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
13392.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
現在我們去審第10條行官機關報告第10條是關於人工生殖機構對於失數人在失數前應該進行的檢查及評估那因為這次也納入女同性雙方跟單身女性所以在文字的部分就受數人的部分去進行調整所以建議由行政院的版本通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
13398.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
13420.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
陳昭志委員謝謝主席因為我們對於這次就是說在執行施行人工生理之前的檢查跟評估的對象還是有不足跟重大的缺口的部分所以這個部分我們本黨的要求是應就我們更完整應就受訴者受訴配偶代孕者或捐贈人 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
13422.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
13428.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
及其配偶做下列的檢查跟評估而且在下面的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
13430.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
13456.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
相款的第3條之後我們還加上子女最佳利益因為檢查評估還必須思考到這個子女的這個最佳利益我想醫學會非常清楚所以這一點我們要求是在檢查跟評估的對象上面只寫的是不足的我們要求能夠加上受訴者受訴配偶代孕者或捐贈人及其配偶謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
13459.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
13488.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
行政部門請回對這一次的法案修正裡面並沒有包含代孕的對象所以在 只要代孕的就我們現在就不回覆了所以如果好那委員針對現在上邊的文字有沒有特別意見有我們要求保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
13489.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
13504.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
好那我們先就先休息20分鐘後我們繼續審查調溫所以他要保留 沒有沒有要保留我們繼續來討論 他不要先處理嗎先先好 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
15987.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
16012.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
好 現在我們繼續審查我們的第10條委員對第10條 看我們螢幕上的這些有沒有什麼意見我們有意見要保留 我剛剛已經說明了適用範圍因為剛剛我講完你就直接說休息 那我補舉手 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
16014.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
16043.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
就是我們認為行政院版他所講的檢查跟評估對象是不足的 嚴重的不足所以我說應就受訴的受訴配偶代孕者或捐贈人及其配偶為下檢查做評估這個對象是不夠就行政院版本我們覺得是不足所以我們民眾黨是要求保留謝謝要不要說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
16052.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
16075.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
我們認為目前的條文已經涵蓋了這次在那個前面法條就是適用的對象就是夫妻女同性雙方跟單身女性所以在這次修法過程當中這一條的這個適用範圍跟檢查跟評估的部分我們認為這個法條應該相對來說是文字完整了那再請委員斟酌 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
16079.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
16084.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那我們的第10條就先行暫時保留接下來續審第11條第11條這個是規範人工生殖機構在針對第11條是針對人工生殖機構接受捐贈人去捐贈生殖細胞相關的一個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
16103.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
16127.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
那在原本的在之前現行的條文男性是20歲以上未滿50歲女性是20歲以上未滿40歲那考量許多委員對於這個捐贈年紀的一個建議那我們目前是建議修正為男性跟女性皆改為18歲以上未滿40歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
16129.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
16135.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
那建議就是修改這個部分其他的文字的部分照行政院版本以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
16137.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
16165.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
曾昭芝委員跟王振旭委員發言謝謝主席這個部分有關捐精的部分我要請部長跟這個或署長很清楚的回答我捐精捐卵這個不管當然是叫辦法還叫法律大概我印象中2003、2006左右就開始了我想請問一件非常非常重要的事情請問你們對於捐精者有做一路的追蹤嗎一捐再捐醫學系的男生捐最多 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
16166.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
16177.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
你們這個捐金有資料嗎我可以所知嗎國健署在做什麼衛福部在做什麼盡量捐嗎DNA盡量送嗎全國送嗎在我那個年代我那個醫學系學生男生捐了多少你們有做盡責的去做追蹤嗎而且你們在立那個辦法之前已經十幾年了最後到二零零幾年才開始有這個辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
16197.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
16206.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
貴府部 池部長還有你現在你們都必須蓋關承受好 署長 請你講清楚捐金就這麼簡單嗎先到哪裡去了 金子中有沒有追蹤你這一條也沒有寫啊捐金不用追蹤嗎金子到處送嗎全世界都發生這樣的事情喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
16229.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
16247.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
好請為夫說明謝謝報告委員我們在第9條關於人工生殖機構申請許可還有管理的部分會授權子辦法後續也會針對這些生殖細胞的捐贈還有相關的紀錄做更嚴謹的規範署長那你現在給我看過去的這個捐金已經很 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
16249.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
16261.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
幾十年了已經執行幾十年了在沒有法之前就又已經執行如果我加起來大概至少三四十年的時間了你現在跟我說你要做規範那我可不可以要求你過去是怎麼管理的難道沒有人想過嗎在場沒有人想過嗎DNA到處送沒有倫理的問題嗎沒有管理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
16277.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
16279.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
報告委員這個對於進行人工生殖相對應捐贈的生殖細胞捐精的部分是有相對應的是有相關的規範的 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
16307.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
16318.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
也許 也許啦 追蹤的程度 追蹤的比較能夠去做好你們有人可以回答我嗎幾十年的捐精行為 你們做了什麼管理你們可以回答我嗎那要不要讓他們回答好 來 那衛福部回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
16328.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
16349.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
我們在相關的子辦法裡頭有生殖細胞捐贈健康檢查及評估通報表那通報表的部分也會有相關的一個記錄喔我所知都沒有啊 那沈署長我今天要所知 我要過去你們的管理你們過去怎麼管理 我當然不用看名字你看過去你怎麼管理 捐精行為這麼久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
16351.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
16370.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
好 林主任委員署長 你這樣實在是都完全搞不清楚咧就現行的法律就是不管你捐幾次最多只能夠提供火產一次其他的都不能用了 不是嗎你怎麼可能會沒有規範 你不會回答嗎管他捐幾次 但火產一次以後這個都不能再用了啊你把相關規定拿出來跟陳委員解釋一下署長 我不要看規定 我要看你們實際追蹤的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
16379.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
16405.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
你們實際追蹤的結果今天我們就算在討論人工生殖法 未來我們也要看到很多的資料跟報告 很多的存證規定的是文字執行是最重要的署長你要好好我嗎過去捐贈你可以給我幾年資料 請問你可以給我幾年資料國際署存了幾年資料我今天在這邊讓全國人民聽到這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
16408.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
16411.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
整個臺灣捐精行為已經幾十年了有做過管理追蹤嗎現在就法條等國健署再做回應如果陳昭之委員要你提供的資料我們自己再看怎麼去提供因為委員的要求你們要怎麼去回應我們進入到還是進入到第11條 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
16431.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
16453.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
11條委員有沒有意見有有有修正動議請大家也參考一下剛剛也有提到說在男性女性的這些選政者的年齡上面本來的法條是20歲以上男性未滿50歲那女性的話是20歲以上未滿40歲那我們修正動議是把這個男性的部分從 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
16455.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
16472.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
50歲修正到40歲我想大家也都清楚年齡在相對高的時候不管在男性的精子的品質也會下降基因異常的機會也會上升風險會跟著上升所以把它修正從50歲修正到40歲會是比較適當的這個讓整體的這些符合他的品質會是比較好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
16477.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
16502.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
至於要不要修正到18歲剛剛機關也有提到是不是要修正到18歲目前台灣的法律裡面滿18歲已經是成人人而且看起來他的品質18歲以上也應該達到成熟的階段所以如果要調整男性18歲以上未滿40歲個人是可以表示支持跟同意以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
16502.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
16514.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
好 其他有沒有意見 因為現在也是按照剛剛王志群委員提的 也都在上面了男性是18歲以上 未滿40歲那其他委員有沒有意見好 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
16517.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
16532.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
沒有的話就依行政院提案修正通過接下來續審不好意思那剛剛我要求的東西我剛已經跟他講了我剛才有提供給陳昌智委員這個我們可以再提供給陳昌智委員對我剛已經有跟委員說明因為國建署有訂了文工生殖資料通報及管理辦法那麼這個辦法裡面就有對捐贈人的資料有登錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
16545.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
16548.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
所以我們會把你的辦法 我要看你追蹤的結果追蹤結果你現在續審8條的問題了林淑芬委員提的8之1 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
16570.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
16586.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
我們的八之一是講未滿18歲的人不得實施並提供非以捐贈為目的的生殖細胞冷凍儲存但是因為醫療因素者不在此限那這一條新增是在講說不是以捐贈為目的的非 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
16587.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
16602.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
而且非為近期實施人工生殖的生殖細胞冷凍儲存和資格的要件那這個未成年人例外的狀況是說因為未成年人有可能在未成年的時候他就生病了 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
16602.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
16622.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
那這個病有可能是卵巢癌或者是睪丸癌或者是會讓生殖器官受損的這種疾病那你就必須要讓他在未成年的時候能夠先儲存起來雖然這種狀況可以例外除此之外呢未滿18歲的話是不行的這樣子男女都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
16628.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
16655.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
那請行政部門回是報告委員我們同意林淑芬委員的修正動議那是不是在條文的部分做一個調整在八之一林淑芬委員八之一的部分融入我們原本的第十一條的部分可以你就全部放進去嗎是OK好第一項史德捐贈的後面那個畫面是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
16658.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
16681.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
因為這是十一條林淑芬委員的第八支一條因為它是以原有的線型條文的修正因為我們這次做的是全文修正所以建議可以放在第十一條十一條的捐贈能符合下列各款情形者使得接受其捐贈生殖細胞 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
16682.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
16701.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
那是不是把他這個精神寫下去但因醫療因素者不再直線這樣就好了就是因為我們年齡都已經限制在第11條的男性18歲以上女性18歲以上那現在只是說本來未滿18歲就不可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
16702.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
16716.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
但我們醫療因素則不在此限角是排除這個年齡的這一個限制而已那如果你沒有完整的寫出來的話有沒有可能他會排除上面其他的其他各款都會被排除掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
16719.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
16737.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
第十一條第一項第一項是在第十一項第一項的頭頭就直接寫了在第十一條的前文的地方就有了但醫療因素則不再實現不是啦是在這裡後面啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
16740.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
16763.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
這裡啦 年紀的後面所以妳的意思是在那個這個自存啦這個不是捐贈的對不對那這個沒有十一之一啦就是非以捐贈為目的這個是自存啦非以捐贈為目的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
16764.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
16789.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
對不對 這個是指的是自存因為第11條談的是捐贈啦那這個是這裡講的是說 生病了我們對一下哪裡的條文比較合適對啦 這個不一樣喔 不是捐贈啦我們講的不是捐贈 慧芙芙是同意這個嘛那是不是你們先對一下我們先去審第12條 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
16798.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
16823.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
請行政部門說明是第12條是在規範人工生殖機構在接受這個捐贈的時候必須向捐贈人說明還有記錄的一些事項那參考委員的這個文字林淑芬委員有建議要加入一些發生的併發症及副作用等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
16823.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
16843.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
那在行政院版的文字的部分是使用相關的權益及醫療風險所以在這邊我們也可以參酌委員的文字來去修改應向捐贈人說明施行方式可能發生的併發症及副作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
16844.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
16857.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
以及第27條至29條第35條至第42條規定之相關權利義務所以行政機關這邊同意做一些文字的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
16866.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
16867.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
來委員有沒有意見12條12條你們有納入我們的條文第9條的條文內容嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
16892.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
16902.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
就是說人工生殖機構接受生殖細胞捐贈時應向捐贈人說明施行方式可能發生了併發症及副作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
16903.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
16925.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
那為什麼要這樣子呢而且要及相關權利義務並取得並取得其了解及這個書面同意使得為之因為事實上在這個捐贈的過程裡面捐贈生殖細胞但是特別是捐贈卵子裡面它是侵入性的行為那涉及取卵的手術所以它是很 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
16926.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
16939.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
很侵入性它是一種醫療行為那它當然就涉及到風險所以風險跟副作用一定要讓捐贈者非常的清楚然後為了避免糾紛也應該要有書面同意這樣子我們的第九條這應該放上去是制度更完善啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
16960.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
16988.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
現行條文的第9條就是現在12條可以嗎報告委員我們第12條的文字已經參採您建議的文字做修正好全部都放上去了嗎是好好ok |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
17005.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
17023.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
這第12條這邊我有一件也就是說大家人工生殖子女在成長過程當中除了醫療資訊以外他也要更多關於自身的生命來源的一些資訊來協助他建立自我認同所以我建議可不可以增加由捐贈人依其意願提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
17024.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
17042.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
非可辨識識別資訊的制度例如興趣信仰讓人工生殖制度不僅回應醫療需求也能回應子女長期心理發展跟認同的一個建立的需要所以這部分是不是可以去做考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
17042.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
17063.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
報告召委這一條其實主要是規範要對醫療機構要對捐贈人說明的事項然後要經過他的同意那關於召委提到的這個血源窒息權或身世窒息權會在後面的條文有相對應的規範那我們會建議在這裡不要做這些文字重複的描述會有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
17069.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
17090.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
後面在資訊權的部分是記一些相關的一些訊息嗎那我們剛剛講也是說不用不用特別去講到的是他可辨識可是至少可以給一些他為什麼去做這個動作然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
17091.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
17102.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
那他自己的興趣跟個別的一些資料就在這邊的手可以填一下那是不是 報告教委是不是在髮型然後頓號國籍及其他非可不可以加列 加列我看 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
17123.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
17146.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
第三項就人工生殖機構與徵得捐贈人同意後得於前項紀錄一併載明捐贈人的興趣信仰或其他不足以識別其身份的相關訊息供人工生殖子女知悉其生死來源之用其記載方式內容及保存由中央主管機關定制 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
17215.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
17223.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
衛福部這邊我的修正動議的那個條文字的部分再請同仁幫忙第三 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
17245.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
17259.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
第三項第三項後面 增列第三項增列第三項增列第三項人工生殖機構於徵得捐贈人同意後得與前項紀錄一併載明拿過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
17387.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
17412.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
好 委員對上述的文字有沒有意見沒有的話 第12條造型政案提案及委員林淑芬提案 委員林玉琴修正動議修正通過11條文字好了嗎剛才要加林淑芬八字一 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
17421.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
17446.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
剛剛那個11不是11條他要回到那個第9條他要回到第9條加不是11條因為這個全文只有在第9條有出現那麼非為非以捐贈為目的的生殖細胞冷凍儲存及提供之行為所以這個要回到第9條的這一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
17452.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
17465.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
醫療機構就是第二項醫療機構因申請儲管機關許可後使得實施非與監證為目的之生殖細胞冷凍儲存及提供之行為分號儲存對象儲存對象因為18歲以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
17481.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
17505.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
知成年人但醫療目的者但為醫療目的者但為醫療目的者但為醫療目的者不是嘛 但因醫療因素不在此現但因醫療因素者但因醫療因素者不在此現 疾病吧 還是醫療對對對 因為疾病疾病吧 對疾病 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
17507.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
17533.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
醫療目的比較好啦醫療因素好了啦但因醫療因素者逗點不在此限但是我們立法說明來應該講就是說這個醫療因素不是所有疾病都可以而是說你涉及到生殖器官受損導致後來完全沒有生育能力而不得不儲存的話才可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
17535.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
17553.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
那應該是醫療那是為了醫療目的那是為了醫療目的就是我們為了要醫療嘛所以他要先儲存嘛比如說那個化學治療啦或者是放生性治療下去事先儲存起來嘛所以那個是為了醫療目的但是寫醫療因素也無所謂啦我們在那個立法說明裡面再加一下就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
17564.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
17593.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
就是說理論上不是所有疾病都可以就是會傷害到身體器官然後讓他一輩子終生不能夠生育的話這種東西你就要先讓他儲存起來這樣子是許可的這個這樣的立法說明欄要放上去我們指涉的所謂的醫療因素或醫療目的指涉的是這樣的概念好第九條重新宣告第九條依行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
17594.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
17619.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
及委員林淑芬第第六條跟第八之一條提案修正通過那接下來續審第十三條第十三條是在規範人工生殖機構在對這些捐贈的因為林淑芬委員還有一個九之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
17627.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
17649.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
我們剛剛講是捐贈的你必須要讓人家有知道這個施行的方式可能併發政府作用取得說明同意那這一條就是講不是捐贈的而是自存的啊也應該要那應該在前面那個的授權法規又回到第九 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
17654.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
17660.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
地9條之1要併到那個地9條之1要併到你們地3那個授權辦法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
17668.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
17687.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
告知事項那我們這個捐贈的就在立法裡面明定那為什麼這個自存的沒有放到法條裡面明定就是他在告知事項可以裡面去就是用授權裡面去明定要告知事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
17690.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
17715.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
那你整個都放到立法說明欄全部放在那裡因為這個全法談的都是人工生殖那個一項 二項 三項第三項授權法規前兩項許可之有效期限為三年然後期間屆滿能繼續實施前二項之行為依由屆滿前三年之期 請申請許可之 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
17717.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
17733.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
請申請許可之條件程序審查而基準廢紙管理那麼生殖細胞或細胞儲存之品質管理計畫告知同意對 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
17738.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
17762.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
告知同意事項還要取得書面同意對告知同意事項及其他應遵行事項但是我們的費用和書面契約是重點就費用也要放上去還有書面同意既然有書面同意了告知告知同意還有費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
17763.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
17786.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
所以就是告知同意、逗點、費用及其他應遵行事項告知是一件事情,同意是一件事情是吧因為他一定要同意才能做啊所以告知同意一定有告知的義務然後費用及其他應遵行事項是辦法那我們立法說明欄 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
17793.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
17817.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
是不是應該把我們的這一些文字第九條之一你我們所有的文字內容放上去對就是把林淑芬委員的九條一裡面的這些文字的寫在立法說明來來揭示他應該要告知告知同意裡面的這個內容的內容音效組成細胞 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
17819.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
17838.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
應向儲存生殖細胞者說明施行方式可能發生的併發症及副作用並應說明儲存方式及費用取得書面同意後使得進行然後那個就是這樣子我們的第一項的最核心放到立法說明欄裡面立法說明欄耶你們放上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
17846.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
17864.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
你們把我們的第九之一條的第一項都放到 翻到立法說明欄還有就是第二項裡面這個同意書範本應該中央主管機關應該要訂定同意書範本 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
17875.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
17898.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
書面契約範本公餐啦主管機關應該要訂定書面契約範本公餐還有這個書面同意要不要又有範本都寫到立法說明欄對對就我們的這兩項通通給他放到立法說明欄啊你們立法說明欄現在沒有寫餒你們現在是要蓋嗎這樣蓋蓋了我們就可以直接通過了之後才蓋啦之後才蓋我們現在要通過餒 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
17907.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
17908.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
然後你們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
17911.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
17939.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
中央主管機關公告同意書範本還有這個訂定書面契約範本這個也要放進去喔阿你們不曉得怎麼寫我們沒看到我們怎麼那可不可以授權齁就是你們寫之後跟署分委員確認這樣好不好好那我們再重新宣告第九條一行政院提案林署分委員提案的第六條第八支一條第九支一條修正通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
17941.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
17960.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
但是那個立法說明欄還沒有通過立法說明欄所以我剛剛講立法說明欄有我們的行政部門以後有再請林淑芬委員確認後接下來去審第13條 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
17964.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
17984.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
第三條主要是在規範人工生殖機構對於捐贈人捐贈的生殖細胞使用相關的一個規範那這個主要是要避免就是同時或先後提供一些不同對相同的對象使用那導致有一些血源混亂的一些情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
17985.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
17999.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
那當然就是委員的部分有一些不同的文字跟描述但是因為列舉的狀況我們覺得我們會擔心有一些遺漏啦所以在這個部分建議依行政院的版本通過委員有沒有意見民俗分委這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
18010.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
18029.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
人工生殖機構對同一捐贈人捐贈的生殖系包不得同時提供兩對以上受訴者這個夫妻你們的版本是用什麼字眼兩 受訴配偶那只有配偶 或兩名或未婚受訴女性咧喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
18037.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
18041.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
配偶就涵蓋兩種了嘛那受訴單身女性好那我現在有個執行面問題要問就是說你如何去查核不同機構他們都是同一個人跑去不同機構就基本上是這樣子但執行面要怎麼去查核這個人跑去好幾個機構捐呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
18065.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
18079.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
你們執行面要怎麼查核報告委員就是每一個使用者在申請的時候都要來我們這邊去做列管然後查核確認他的資料沒有被他之前沒有被使用過對 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
18092.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
18116.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
你這是從下游弄上來就從下游你是從最末端管理上來就是說你讓大家要去使用了使用捐贈的金子了大部分都是金子啦因為費用成本最低嘛使用他可能跑到很多個機構去捐但是呢大家如果用到的話你們再去回頭去查詢是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
18118.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
18126.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
你們再去查詢這個人有沒有被用過在捐之前其實就已經要先在我們這邊通過就是審查了 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
18129.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
18157.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
你們跟機構之間怎麼樣執行那個審查捐之前他捐之前要跟我們通報所以捐的他說你不行你先把基本資料留下來我跟中央通報完了你才能再捐這樣子嗎對好如果是從上游就開始管我就覺得放心多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
18160.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
18163.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
我們今天的會議是否先進行到此有異議 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
18189.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
18205.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
那其他委員呢那我們的人工生殖法修正草案等16案尚未審查完均另則期繼續審查 本次會議到此結束 現在散會 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
18219.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
18220.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
因為我後來想說 |