| IVOD_ID |
17591 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17591 |
| 日期 |
2026-07-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-20-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期財政委員會第22次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
22 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期財政委員會第22次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-07-15T08:36:36+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-07-15T12:54:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:17:24 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528eb98241217e75b9f3a87e0970f6860b3e6d94474d9c748abc18592ed9ade17ef15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-07-15T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、衛生福利部石部長崇良、教育部鄭部長英耀就「政府食品安全管理機制、食安五環與校園食安預算執行及審核結果」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【7月15日及16日兩天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:36:36 - 12:54:00 |
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請證明書報告出席委員人數報告委員會出席委員已足法定人數我們現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次的會議議事錄立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國115年7月8日星期三9時至11時54分 |
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1460.264 |
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1482.08 |
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7月9日星期四9時至12時1分地點群賢樓9樓大禮堂出席委員林德福委員等14人列席委員鍾嘉斌委員等9人列席官員115年7月8日財政部部長莊翠雲金融監督管理委員會主任委員彭金龍等7月9日中央銀行總裁楊金龍等主席李焦吉委員燕秀115年7月8日討論事項 |
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1484.622 |
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1506.498 |
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一審查中華民國115年中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分有關財政部主管台灣土地銀行股份有限公司財政部印刷廠台灣英九股份有限公司二審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有限公司 |
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1507.118 |
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1535.292 |
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三審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分有關金融監督管理委員會主管一特別收入基金金融監督管理基金二信託基金保險業務發展基金討論事項合併詢答經財政部部長鐘翠雲金管會主委彭金龍提出報告後既有委員林德甫等15人提出質詢軍經財政部部長鐘翠雲金管會主委彭金龍及相關人員予以答覆 |
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1563.417 |
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決議一 說明及詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一週內以書面答覆委員另要求其限者從其鎖定三 委員林思明 羅明才所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆四 討論事項一至三案均另則其繼續審查一百十五年七月九日報告事項邀請中央銀行總裁金龍 |
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1582.518 |
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就股市通膨匯率與房市多重風險中中央銀行中長期因應策略與政策工具進行專題報告並被質詢經中央銀行總裁楊金龍提出報告後既有委員您得福等15人提出質詢均經中央銀行總裁楊金龍及相關人員予以答覆 |
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1583.158 |
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1600.287 |
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決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請中央銀行於週內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定三 委員洪玉祥與匡衡所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請中央銀行以書面答覆宣讀完畢 |
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1612.876 |
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1623.409 |
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我們現在還需要幾位委員在場委員未足法定人數 議事錄暫不確定請議事人員宣讀本日的議程 |
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1625.336 |
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1627.978 |
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現在我們來介紹在現場所有的委員以及官員第一位我們的招委吳秉瑞委員 |
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1657.659 |
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1675.425 |
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第二位是我們林德福委員我們謝謝我們在現場的官員有審計部的審計長陳審計長我們第三廳的廳長張廳長歡迎您我們教育農林審計處的葉處長歡迎您我們行政院主計總處的主計長陳主計長歡迎您 |
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1688.035 |
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1713.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我們公務預算處的許處長歡迎您我們基金預算處的潘處長歡迎您我們今天衛福部是政次我們的林靜儀政務次長歡迎您以及我們食品藥物管理署的副署長蔡副署長歡迎您我們教育部的政次張料萬堅 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1715.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1720.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
張次長以及我們國民學前教育署的彭署長歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1722.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1746.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
好我現在來確定我們議事錄請問在現場的委員對於議事錄有沒有異議好沒有異議那我們就確定我們的議事錄來我們今日議程是安排邀請審計部陳審計長陳端銘以及行政院主計總處的陳主計長陳淑姿以及衛福部石崇良部長以及教育部鄭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1748.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1759.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
政府食品安全管理機制食安五環以及校園食安預算執行及審查的結果進行專案報告現在請審計部的陳審計長進行報告跟說明主席各位委員女士先生今天應邀列席 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1775.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1797.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
政府食品安全管理機制食安五環與校園食安預算執行及損害結果諸將本部近年來查核情形檢料報告如下行政院為健全食品安全管理於102及103年間全文修正食品安全衛生管理法 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1798.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1821.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
並於105年提出食安五環政策互惠強化食品衛生安全於113年提出五環2.0食安政策透過中央機關協力合作與地方政府共同把關食安環境食安五環政策主要由衛福部教育部等全職機關編列預算執行114年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1828.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1848.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
預算合計47億餘元足行是34億餘元足行率約73.6%主要是食藥署新建食品藥物國家級的實驗大樓計畫因工程多處流標預算足行未如預期所助本部與行情研磨改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1849.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1873.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
本部針對政府食品安全管理執行情形相關審核意見已於過年度的中央政府總結算審核報告中揭露僅災藥災事如是一部分食品業者為垃圾主動通報食安事件至無法快速掌握訊息及時處置應加強先導業者的垃圾通報並督請衛生機關加長集合 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1881.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1887.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
部份食品業者未依規定啟動衛生安全管理系統的第三方驗證 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1888.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1914.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
後未於認證期效屆滿前 申請展延應督促檢討改善三 食品邊境查驗人力不足 人員流動力高不利經驗累積已傳承 引於檢討邊境查驗人力的配置並善用資訊科技輔助業務執行四 部分國際食品警訊案件處理未經妥善 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1915.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1941.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
有待強化國際食品警訊監控作業防毒問題產品流通市面五部分民眾以個人的自用食品免查案方式平緩輸入劑量的食品上代嚴厲建立監管機制避免業者以個人名義分批進口食品販賣規避邊境查案 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1943.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1967.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
以確保國人食之安全六部分非公立幼兒園未確實以校園食材登錄平台登錄相關資訊應督促各地方政府推動所詳公私立幼兒園使用校園食材登錄平台確實登錄相關食材資訊以為幼兒餐飲的健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1968.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1989.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
七 校園食品的三級管理機制容帶除夕強化各級學校中毒事件連連發生影響學生健康有待除夕強化校園食品三級管理機制以保障學生食用安全八 食藥署的實驗大樓興建計畫執行未盡週頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1994.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2018.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
工程多處招標屬節標影響計畫推動時程應檢討改善以達成計畫目標全數審核意見以含情衛福部教育部等相關前者機關研磨投為因應本部當更細追蹤改善情形以上報告敬請主席各位委員女士先生主教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2019.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2025.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
謝謝陳審計長接下來請主計總處的陳主計長進行報告跟說明主席各位委員女士先生今天應邀列席貴委員會就政府食安安全管理機制食安午飯與校園食安預算執行及審核結果提出報告以下請就相關預算編列請請提出簡要報告如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2049.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2076.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
第一個為了健全食安體系並重建國人對食安安全食品安全的信任衛福部農業部和農環境部等相關的部會推動各項從1105年起推動食安五繁政策然後從113年度起提升為五繁2.0食安政策以源頭管理整合產製鏈銷中央地方合作計查檢驗輔導教育全民 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2080.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2094.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
監督食安的五方向作为我国食安升级的战略方针通过跨部会与跨领域的协同治理并整理政府管理产业之域民间参与共同捍卫从农场到餐桌的饮食安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2095.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2098.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
食安五繁預算編列情形115年編列47.2億韓非營業特種基金農業部的部分編列22.1 辦理溯源農產品農藥殘留檢驗產銷履歷驗證等衛福部編列18.3億 辦理興建現代化食品藥物國家及 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2120.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2148.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
實驗大樓食品添加後天然毒素及輻射檢測以及輸入食品查驗等三 環境部編列5.7億元主要是辦理各項具風險性的化學物質管理措施追蹤化學物質流向以及強化溝基檢查查核等四 教育部編列1億元主要系補助國民中小學改善學校廚房設施設備午餐與校園食品輔導方式等 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2149.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2163.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
五 經濟部編列0.1億元主要是協助國內食品製造產業導入安全防護規範強化食品技術人才培訓及透過數位化系統提供品質安全防護管制資料等 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2164.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2181.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那隨著國人健康的一個意識高漲政府始終將國民飲食安全視為首要任務在守護國人健康的同時與驅動食品產業的轉型升級為維護民眾食品食安全益行政院持續深化各項食安政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2182.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2196.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
力求從農場到餐桌的整體供應鏈皆符合安全衛生與環保規範邁向信任食安消費環境以上報告敬請各位委員女士先聲指教祝大家健康快樂 萬事如意 謝謝謝謝我們主計長接下來請衛福部的林靜怡正式進行專題報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2209.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2239.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
主席各位委員女士先生今天大院第十一屆第五會期財政委員會召開第二十二次全體委員會議本部呈邀列席政府食品安全管理機制食安五環與校園食安預算執行及審核結果提出報告敬請委員指教一食安五環的重點及成效一百一十三年八月四日行政院食品安全匯報提出食安五環二點零政策由行政院食品安全辦公室會同衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2239.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2245.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
农业部、环境部、经济部及教育部共同推动持续精进我国食品安全管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2270.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2288.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
2.中联大豆油事件经过及政府因病作为本案于115年6月30日接获中联油指通报大豆沙拉油减除本品批超标后本部及会同台中市政府查核要求停制停售并督导下额业者完成产品下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2289.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2304.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
后发现不同批次产品亦有超标情形,基于食安从严原则宣布,中联4月至6月相关油品及制成产品全面预防性下架,截至7月14日上午11时,已回收5批问题油品总共1644.4公吨。 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2307.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2320.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
经查中联制程涉及重大系统性问题在改善完成前不得恢复生产令因延迟通报影响层面广大本部已采取1亿6520万罚还相关业者亦依法采取 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2322.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2347.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
3.资讯公开及跨机关依法就责事件发生后本部及时透过新闻稿、记者会、官网及设置专区公布事件进度、产品资讯及抽验结果维护民众知情权益同时案件已依请司法机关侦办启动民生犯罪联系平台由检调、卫生等机关共同调查如有违法情势依法就办 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2348.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2359.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
四、保障消費者權益部分協調下游業者依從寬、從優、從速、從簡原則辦理退貨提供退貨及客服服務並協助消保團體辦理團體訴訟保障消費者權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2363.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2389.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
五 落实食安五环强化食品安全管理制度本次事件显示源头管理自主管理异常通报及资讯整合仍有精进空间本部将依循食安五环架构全面检讨并推动修法一是强化源头控管落实高风险原料逐批检验及流样制度二是精进生产管理建立制程验证机制强化自主检验及第三方验证 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2390.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2416.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
三是加强查验管理,依风险分级提高抽验及稽查强度,提升政府预警能力。四是强化责任追究,完善异常通报制度,提高延迟及隐匿通报法则,并建立第三方检验主动通报机制。五是精进资讯联通,整合自主检验,第三方检验,抽验及通报资讯,强化风险分析及资讯分享。 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2417.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2438.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
6.说明预防性下架产品重新上架原则,在确保食品安全前提下,采分源分项,逐批确认上下游合对原则,确认上游原游及下游产品检验均符合规定者,使得解除管制,恢复上架,以兼顾食品安全及合法业者的权益。 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2440.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2455.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
本部秉持风险及时掌握资讯公开透明依法行政处理原则迅速启动跨机关应变完成产品追查预防性下架扩大抽验及资讯揭露并配合司法调查检讨制度及推动修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2456.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2477.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
未来本部将持续以食安五环2.0为核心精进源头控管产制销链管理集合检验辅导管理及全民监督完善食品安全治理守护国人饮食健康本部呈大院各委员之指教及监督在此尽致谢诚并其各位委员继续引以支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2480.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2482.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
謝謝我們林靜怡政策的專題報告說明接下來請我們教育部張亮政策進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2493.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2511.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
主席各位委員大家好今天應要列席就政府食品安全管理機制食安五環以及校園安食安預算執行及審核結果進行報告請向各位委員長期對教育的關心與指導表達誠摯的感謝那麼全國每日呢有將近兩百三十 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2512.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2534.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
八萬名師生在校用餐那麼教育部配合行政院食安五環的政策強化學校午餐衛生安全管理機制目前校園食品安全管理主要透過食品安全衛生管理法學校衛生法等規定確保食品安全那麼首先呢依據學校衛生法的相關規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2536.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2549.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
督導地方政府定期辦理學校及團餐業者的稽查並透過學校午餐採購契約及履約管理要求公餐業者確保食材符合食品安全相關規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2551.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2576.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
違規情節重大者得終止契約其次全面推動校園食材登錄制度公開每日食材來源資訊並結合衛福部國際食品安全快速通報系統產品通路管理系統在接獲食安資訊之後即可迅速通知地方政府辦理清查停止使用以及回收 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2577.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2593.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
及追蹤的處置那麼本部已經訂有校園食品事件處理作業標準事件應變作業流程建置跨部會食安通報以及校園食安通報自動化系統在接獲食安資訊後即可 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2593.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2619.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
及時通知地方政府辦理清查停止使用回收及追蹤處置的情形另外本部持續推動三張EQ等國產可溯源食材政策目前學校午餐採用國產可溯源食品的覆蓋率已經達到99%以上那麼提升了食材來源的透明度與可追溯性那麼在校園食安及營養照顧上 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2621.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2634.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
除了115年度繼續編列了1億249萬的食安預算外本部每年也都針對校園食品安全食材的補助營養師的人力地方輔導團運作等相關項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2636.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2656.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
編列年度的預算來提升全國學校午餐的品質那麼針對近期食藥署公布的有品食安事件本部在7月1日接獲資訊後第一時間即啟動應變機制利用校園食材登錄平台進行比對並將結果提供給地方政府經查 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2659.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2679.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
共計有新北台北桃園台中台南高雄基隆等七縣市部分學校曾使用受影響的油品均已完成停止使用預防性下架以及後續的處置另外為了因應食藥署滾動新增受影響的產品也進行了全面的比對目前疑似 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2681.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2704.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
涉及20個縣市861所學校以及334所幼兒園相關比對結果即送各地方政府教育局處以數位工具加速清查及追蹤後續本部將持續依食藥署最新公告資訊採滾動式清查以及預防性下架措施運用數位工具提升校園食安通報的效率每日滾動比對 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2705.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2718.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
並協助地方精準查核及主動公開資訊並持續追蹤等機制透過跨部會的合作來確保學生飲食安全讓家長放心那麼以上報告請敬請各位委員會議指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2720.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2742.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
謝謝我們張亮正式進行的專題報告現在開始詢答先做以下的宣告每位出席委員發言時間是8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言時間是4分鐘今天上午10點截止發言登記現在依登記的順序請第一位林德福委員開始質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2758.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2775.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
謝謝 謝謝主席是不是來請這個主計長還有省計長包括衛福部林次長還有教育部的這個張料次長請兩位請四位首先我請那個衛福部那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2786.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2808.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
這次整個致癌油尤其毒油波及的商品之廣全台民眾基本上都是逃不掉的多少都有知道根據統計109到113年衛福部 農業部 環境部包括教育部 經濟部合計至少投入296億的 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2812.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2814.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
市長 您的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2830.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2849.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
我先跟委員報告,這地方政府其實我們至少在最近去年111到114年,這四年我們都有專案補助要求地方政府對於有品相關產品進行查驗。所以說這個部分其實不同的地方政府在專案裡面也有不同的評次去對於這些有品的業者去進行查驗。 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2851.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2871.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
那你認為這次整個衛務部在這次的大漏洞到底他的問題出在哪裡這一次因為我們過去讓業者自主通報當然我們接下來食安法的經濟裡面會對於自主通報這一邊我們會其實現在會保持質疑我們會希望相關的檢驗的數據那要有第三方公證的這個單位去做檢驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2872.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2889.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
在檢驗的相關這些大量如果產品它有一些不同的工廠有的是很大像這一次中聯它是很大型的自由工廠所以像這樣大型的自由工廠它的檢驗頻次應該要增加一開始就要增加而且你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2889.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2913.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
他三家最大的公司幾乎都是投資在他那裡其實他是一體的啦那他出問題整個幾乎北到南南到北幾乎都出狀況而且你看包括夜市包括所有我們的這些像7-11這些幾乎都涵蓋在裡面很多食品都需要下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2914.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2942.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
這個問題是非常嚴重所以對於這種他對於市場佔率非常大的這樣的大型業者而且他的這個產油的批次其實每個月的批次相對多那我們接下來在後續的食安法這邊會對於檢驗的評次還有檢驗這邊他自主通報的相關的程序時間全部都做一個修正我是希望你們要嚴格的去要求規範一點都束縛不得因為吃到肚子裡面是吐不出來的而且後續還有很多衍生的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2944.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2965.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那我來請主計審計政府在食安上扎大錢建系統但是卻絲毫這個整個早期預警的功能都沒有那人民感到很無奈而且這個主計總署在籌編審查明年食安預算的時候你們有沒有檢討主計長你們有沒有檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2972.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2990.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
這個部分是我們會請業務大會因為這一次的事件他們已經深切在深入檢討當中我要針對問題探討問題怎麼去解決問題不是被動式的現在政府官員就是被動式的所以說人民很憤怒講實在話 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2993.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3011.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
你們要主動要積極食安一點都馬虎不得不容許這個任何的狀況你看全國多少學生他們有的正在成長然後你就吃那些毒油根據足跡總數統計115年度食安五環預算共編列了47.2億元116年度食安五環預算會再成長嗎會不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3022.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3050.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
還沒有統計因為他擅在各部會那各部會要編列多少我們還在統計中116年度的預算籌備也正在進行當中我是希望你們用一點心因為食安的東西是一點都不能馬虎容許不得一點疏忽因為當然我們是希望稽查人員以檢驗設備預算你認為需不需要成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3052.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3078.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
不是他有需要啦 人民有需要啦我跟你講是人民有需要因為看到這樣的政府一點效率都沒有而且被動式的而且都還第二關卡 第三關卡陳報以後隔了多久才選選出來你看又吃了多少那要回收也沒辦法回收了因為幾乎都吃光了 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3079.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3108.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
對不對是 審計部有沒有打算針對食安追溯系統過度的依賴業者誠實的申報的盲區來啟動專案的查核來揪出整個系統性的失職那個我們非常同意委員的意見我們會因為這個關係啊個人的健康安全所以這個部分我們會照委員的意思啊啟動這樣的一個整個專案調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3109.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3135.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
要嚴格嚴苛啦一點點都不能馬虎啦包括你家人你什麼誰都知道啦不是只有說今天我來質詢這個我本身沒有吃到沒有那回事啦中聯油脂自來的問題啊牽連到許多食品業者最近已經有超商業者陸續啊退款給這些消費者根據媒體的報導全台共有一千三百 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3136.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3152.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
八十所的學校營養午餐曾使用過問題有本席選區當然也有啦學校受害很多的學校都受害請問教育部與地方政府是否有討論將營養午餐退回給家長張亮 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3159.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3186.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那目前這個我們還在因為那個整個委員剛才所提到的那個1800所是當時擴大那個追查所以那時候是比較寬鬆的把它都認定那事後呢我們經過篩選之後呢是260校是260校然後那個委員所講的那個退款的部分那個涉及到一些責任跟契約的部分我們會進一步來了解來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3188.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3214.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那個你認為學童吃到問題油的時間範圍到底有多久你們有沒有去了解去查我們是在接貨這個那個食安食藥署的通報之後我們第一部分第一時間我們就透過那個食材登錄系統馬上去追溯去了解那個用到的學校那第一是在清查的時候我們在篩的時候是擴大只要有可能用譬如說那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3216.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3234.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
只要用沙拉油我們把它弄出來之後我們就開始來過濾過濾完之後再針對第二譬如說它有用油品再重製的一些食品的項目然後我們再去看不斷地篩我們也是很努力在篩選有影響的學校 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3235.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3252.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
本席向以新北市國中營養午餐為例每個月營養午餐的費用家長要繳差不多兩千兩百元那如果要退費金額出估要多少如何協助這些團善的業者向上游廠商來求償因為這個有連貫性的為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3255.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3272.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
因為衛福部對這些業者開罰了1.6億元那這批錢繳進了國庫但是那些把致癌物吃到肚子裡面無辜的民眾他到底有什麼實質上的賠償沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3276.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3292.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那錢進到國庫大家都擔心這種致癌物對健康的危害是長期的累積的喔如果五年十年後民眾的身體真的出了狀況現行的法律體系下一般老百姓根本就沒有能力去舉證啊對不對那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3296.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3311.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
甚至於說這些舉證的人說我的病是因為當年吃了這瓶毒油所產生的後遺症有三點請衛福部也要回答第一 代位求償跟團體訴訟的進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3314.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3328.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
不能讓這些受害的民眾自己去面對大財團的律師團衛福部要建立單一的獨遊受害登記平台並由政府出面負責求償跟訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3329.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3352.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
報告委員我們已經啟動就是我們在消保行政院消保處跟我們一起合作我們已經跟國內兩個就是我們過去大家信任度很高的消保團體已經討論了那接下來會由食安基金這邊來支援相關的團體宿舍我們所做所為一定要讓全民知道這是關係到全民的事那像1.6億元花的是否專款用於受害者的補償 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3353.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3379.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
郭文貴委員這1.6億進來會到時候進到其中有一部分進到食安基金食安基金那個是小事啦問題是你最重要你划了款他本來受償還不只1.6億的害者難道只有這樣而已嗎因為現在檢調我們跟檢調這邊合作那對於上游的這個廠商這一邊後續他的法律責任已經還有很多需要求償的對求償部分有一些法律上的部分我們在做一些處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3379.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3408.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
因為這筆黑心廠商身上划來的1.6億以及沒收的不划所得不應該默默吞進國庫啦衛福部是否會將這筆錢設立為受害者健康追蹤跟補償的專屬基金這個跟過去的一些相關郵政的那個案子不太一樣這個是一個它本身品質的問題那所以說後續這些相關這個廠商必須要在法律的責任以及求償的部分先是讓我們在司法的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3409.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3426.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
你們要走在前頭啊因為齁你用來這些錢要用來支付後續民眾醫療檢測以及法律上面的訴訟費是否以針對涉案的企業進行啊資產的保全這個很重要啊不是讓他就這樣子全部都脫產 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3428.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3449.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
對不對為了避免廠商脫產衛福部有沒有第一時間向法院申請假扣押這些涉案業者的資產確保後續的求償我們現在跟檢調一起在合作不是檢調合作啦你們要更前衛的啦因為這是關係到全民啦健康的問題啊我是希望已經提醒你們你們不做 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3452.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3458.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
人民就來做 謝謝好 我們結束林德福委員的質詢接下來請吳秉瑞委員主席 麻煩請衛福部林次長請林次長委員早次長早這一次的事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3481.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3482.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3483.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3511.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
依照法律全責次如何劃分中央負責哪一部分地方政府負責哪一部分可不可以請你說明中央這邊在食安法訂定相關檢驗以及後續檢驗的一些規定還有檢驗的品項那執行檢驗是地方政府那所以這一次延緩申報就你的觀點來看是中央政府的責任還是地方政府的責任我們都會一起處理啦所以是中央政府有講 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3512.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3536.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
要中央政府跟地方政府合力來解決這個食安問題對不對是而且報告委員其實相關油品的品質的部分在111到114年我們本來就有一些檢驗的專案那時候也是請地方政府去做檢查那這一次地方政府有沒有檢驗地方政府在這一次的資料裡面在前半年我們有看到他有這個要求的檢驗的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3538.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3556.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
有檢驗幾次它的頻率有沒有符合你們的要求跟法令的規定今年的專案有但是今年還沒過去驗今年現在已經七月了還沒去驗那所以今年上半年都沒驗嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3557.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3575.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我們在資料上看一下地方政府我跟你說報告委員我們剛才講的是有衛生單位直接到現場主動的稽查那11年到14年是有去查四次那今年台中市省處也有規劃去查這個主動去稽查有沒有去查 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3577.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3599.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
今年還沒查 但是這個事件當下今天是7月15號了嘛那事件當下這件事情的處理的話就已經有去到現場去查核三到四次那就是發生了之後才去查的嘛之前都沒有查嘛我要跟你講一件事情喔記不記得台中發生非洲豬瘟的這個傳染事件是 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3600.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3604.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
全國其他的養豬場用廚餘養豬都沒有出現問題就那個場有問題因為其他的廚餘是有經過斟酌的 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3611.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3635.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
就那一個廠今年進了4桶瓦斯從那一年整年就是那4桶瓦斯他整整八九六都沒有珍珠啊所以同一批廚餘他還有分給隔壁的養豬場隔壁的養豬場有珍珠就沒有發生非洲豬瘟那一個發生非洲豬瘟的那個養豬場沒有珍珠 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3637.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3652.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
所以才讓台灣非洲租用的房子破了一個大漏洞我現在要跟你講的是 中央政府在這邊很努力 四人單單有規劃有政策如果協力配合的地方政府不執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3654.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3678.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
不去進行他該做的工作一樣破一個大洞啊所以將來這個前車復後車建嘛現在出現了一個這樣的狀況那將來各地方的地方政府如果沒有好好的照法律的規定去做落實他該進行的查驗的時候或他該進行的工作的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3679.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3703.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那導致這樣破洞的時候要把這事情講清楚啊誰該負責任我當然知道站在中央政府的立場是既然已經發生了我們趕快來協助地方政府一起來補這個漏洞因為這個油炸出來之後有獨子的油是流全國的不是只有台中在用啊這間公司的進口的大豆就是在台中港炸油的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3705.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3724.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那地方政府到底有沒有做了他該做的工作中央政府有沒有做了他該做的工作這是我要今天在這個地方想向你請教想向你討教的謝謝委員當然我們也檢討過就是說在現在我們接下來要處理的過去訂的檢驗評次當然我們訂的是最低的應該要的檢驗評次 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3725.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3754.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
可是其實依照不同的地方政府他看到他的這個廠他本身製造的這個評次等等事實上我們當然希望他們可以因為不同的規格或他的量很大那他就增加他的抽驗評次或者是增加他在檢驗上面的一些應該要的作為你不要寄望地方政府這樣啦我待過地方政府如果中方政府給他規定一年檢4次他能夠一年做到檢4次就已經很不錯啦你要說如果量大的話希望他主動能夠增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3755.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3782.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
沒有什麼叫主動然後增加的大家把這個東西寫清楚講明白假設它生產的量你是以量來抽查還是以時間來抽查這個東西都要講清楚我們接下來會調整我們要求的檢驗品次要把它的依照它的量或者它的規模然後去做它的要求所以我是覺得說對我們自己要求很高這是很好那中央政府這一次你覺得哪一些地方做得還可以哪些地方沒有做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3783.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3800.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
在法令規定的範圍內你不要講說以前因為法令的不完備135環現在的確被檢討嘛大家認為說應該再訂得更嚴我跟你說這麼嚴這麼嚴如果有人不去落實有人不去執行最後還是有可能會出現破洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3802.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3826.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
謝謝委員給我們這個機會啦我們是6月30收到通知7月1號我們就立刻跟6月30收到通知就跟地方政府一起下去這次包含檢調那檢調的動作也非常的快那我們食藥署會配合這邊跟檢調這邊合作來把中間的一些部分做一些釐清那當然在相關的現在在處理上面我們其實本來是希望本來是說他有問題的有我們先處理但是後來認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3827.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3843.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
事態可能相當嚴重所以我們把4月到6月做一個預防性的下架那這幾個目前是我們現在正在處理的部分我跟你說你行政機關有行政機關的作為你專權評檢調本席就來自法院啦我年輕的時候當法官啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3844.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3871.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
檢調他會不會因為公務員員疏於執行職務然後造成災害去辦這個在未定之天我們司法都不能干涉我們也沒有辦法講但是司法的時間真的要很長將來可能很久以後被冤枉的人才有辦法獲得一個證明他是有努力做他的工作的所以我是覺得大家應該要講清楚另外你們對地方政府有沒有督導的權責因為現在啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3872.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3889.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
大家都強調中央政府跟地方政府是夥伴關係所以都變得互相很客氣那如果地方政府該做的工作沒有做的時候你中央政府要拿出什麼樣的態度來跟他應對呢謝謝委員真的講到重點因為我們一開始依照食安法整個權責在查驗等等相關還有通報是地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3890.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3913.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
後來我們跟食藥署這邊說如果都等地方整理完一輪再上來給我們我們對民眾的資訊會有delay的問題所以後來我們就要求這些廠商直接跟食藥署對也就是他們不論是下架的進度或者是廠商這邊他們相關目前已經查到的資料全部直接要進到食藥署食藥署這邊同時同步跟地方政府得到同樣的資訊甚至更早要拿到資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3914.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3928.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
希望你這一部分能夠盡加緊但是問題是你是中央部會你不可能把所有地方政府該做的事全部都包攬起來所以對地方政府沒有認真執行他的職務的時候該職務的處理要想一套辦法謝謝委員提醒這個獨職到底是從哪裡來 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3936.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3962.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
這個其實它是在製造過程中其實這個 就是說這個本田皮事實上像大家在烤肉或高溫烹煮的過程中其實都很容易發現是啦 但是大豆油它是冷嘎的嘛所以這個獨子有一個說法說因為大量進口巴西的黃豆那巴西的黃豆在採收的過程中因為它比較濕 是所以它要用很高的溫度來去烘乾 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3963.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3990.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
那跟美國的黃豆聽說還不一樣美國的還沒有這麼濕那是不是如果是原料的來源有問題原料在輸送的過程中在烘乾的過程中儲存的過程中產生的問題這個可能不是你現在三聲武令在那邊要求說你每一批給我查驗原料有問題每一批做出來都有問題啊所以他就必須要造假才有辦法繼續生存 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3990.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4015.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
其實報告委員事實上您講到我們目前至少在開的專家會議裡面也認為說可能是他原來豆子比較濕那比較濕他烘乾過程造成可是這個事實上是他如果這個廠商他有中間我們採他真的採取HACCP標準的製程以及這個製程中有注意到他可能因為原料比較濕溫度比較高會產生這個問題他的製程中就能夠避免產生本田皮超標的問題所以目前我們對於中聯 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4016.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4031.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
最重要的一個事情為什麼到現在不讓他復工就是他中間的這個HACCP的品管他還沒有提出我們可以接受的說法好 那我現在是請教你一個問題因為現在全世界最主要的大豆產地是巴西全世界最大的量是它 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4032.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4060.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
因為它那邊的濕度是比較高所以它產生的這個豆子它在乾燥的過程中要用比較高的溫度而且因為它量大它為了要快速所以它不用比較高的溫度如果是原料有問題你們把問題抓出來之後針對這一些點除了製造的過程原料有沒有問題這個都要詳細的比對跟查驗不然的話將來還會再出現相同的狀況其實我想委員我們也都知道農產品它本來就有不同品質的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4061.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4080.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那但是如果照HACCP的原則就是這個標準製程的話或者是我們講優良品管的製程它在製程中它就應該知道會發生這樣的狀況而在品管上面來做避免發生這樣事情的問題意思是說就算是那個豆子有問題只要它製造的方式改良也可以降低這個豆子就對了老實說它中過程如果處理好就不會發生這種問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4082.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4103.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
好 繼續加油 我跟你講我個人認為的觀點地方政府如果他的執行有什麼問題你專政府一定要有對策因為你聽信他說大家分工 夥伴關係他出的問題是你在背鍋啦加油謝謝委員好 我們結束秉瑞委員的質詢接下來請第三位賴氏寶委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4120.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4126.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
謝謝主席以及各位先進有請主計長與沈計長請主計長跟沈計長委員好兩位長官好先請教主計主計長現在的你好像前幾天公佈我們的平均薪資是多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4150.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4166.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
四萬七千多啦,快四萬八啦大概是有百分之六十九左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4171.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4179.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
這個7月12號前幾天的事情你公布平均薪資47884元594萬的勞工低於平均5年來增加37萬人低於平均薪資這個就講出來了一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4193.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4208.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
就是台灣現在隨著股市這樣子飆啊負責越負負 貧者越貧 更嚴重五年來 低於平均薪資的比例是逐年上升我們今年GDP大概可以多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4210.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4222.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我們估是主計總數估是9.64啦但是那個中研院他有在估說是要10點多啦中研院估超過10喔CPI勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4226.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4252.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
CPI本身上個月是2.62.6高於我們中央銀行的心目中底線是是是我們大概整年平均大概是所以你也看喔貧富差距不斷的擴大物價不斷的上漲人民就越來越苦這個多數的人民是過苦日子的啦這個沈紀長啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4253.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4267.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
你要不要講一下這個省紀部要不要去降低貧富差距我們省紀部有沒有責成財政部做點事情比如說稅的問題啦什麼問題等等有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4269.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4289.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
我們今年我們現在在做醫事的審核報告我們在審核報告裡面有對這一個部分提出一些意見意見所以大概我們最重要一定要講一個最重要的是什麼可以哪個工具可以降低貧富差距現在看起來有點嚴重喔連續五年 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4293.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4298.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
三分之二以上 領不到平均薪資非常非常嚴重嘛 而且物價一直漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4300.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4325.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
你可以講一個重點一個重點最低工資啊是有對基層啊這一個部分啊政府在對這個條啊我們發現它是有幫助的這一個是有幫助的但是啊涉及到因為這個面向啊很廣所以啊我要告訴委員說政府的政策裡面調整這個最低工資啊這一個部分啊那這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4327.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4340.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
租本利得這個也要考慮因為現在的租本利得影響也會相當大這個也會把這個整個財富殺跡一直拓大持續關注這問題好不好這一部分就當個題目來做報告好不好做研究給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4349.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4362.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
好 省紀部的角度如何降低台灣的貧富差距好 那個主席長請回喔 省紀長留下我們請衛福部的長官好不好哪位長官 衛福部長官林政司啦林政司委員長這個次長啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4372.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4397.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我想你本身又醫生又當過立委你應該對整個社會的大家對獨有的關心你應該很清楚這個獨有是很嚴重的一個事情到現在為止昨天卓榮泰院長也做了專案報告到現在為止在這個時刻我們都不知道獨有怎麼產生 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4398.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4414.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
怎麼會有毒油是原料的問題呢還製成的問題呢還是什麼的到底是什麼問題謝謝委員讓我們說明其實這是在製油過程中這是製油過程中它的溫度可能控管不好那溫度控管不好之後確定喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4414.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4439.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
所以是製成問題不是原料問題是不是 確定原料比較濕所以製成的時候溫度拉得比較高那溫度拉比較高之後本田皮的濃度可能會上升可是其實在製成過程中因為它還有一個製成過程它如果再平管得好它應該能夠把這個拉高的本田皮再把它削下來所以這製成的問題不是進口黃豆的問題所以不要冤枉黃豆 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4440.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4455.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我們目前認為就是因為其實有用巴西黃豆的也不只有這一家可是別人可以把品管做好好 我要跟你講一個比較重要的題目財政部已經花了幾十億經過了一個電子發票整合服務平台裡面賣這個油一進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4464.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4474.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
然後中間經過第一層 第二層 第三層通通清淨足足因為 啊 瞌睡你們沒有用啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4475.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4487.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
財政部沒有用財政部這個系統財政部其實也向委員報告部長有特別跟我們說他們可以協助我們財政部不是現在才開始做做了好幾年了花了幾十億政府的錢結果你們都放在那裡納糧結果到現在為止都沒有告訴我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4497.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4506.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
所以到底跑去哪裡 請問你現在公佈你現在能不能夠什麼時候可以list出來我們每天都有公佈等一下 等一下 你不要急著回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4507.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4529.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
你什麼時候可以完整的告訴全國的消費者說 欸 這一家的泡麵有問題那個的什麼有問題 總共幾家有問題什麼時候可以去...委員我們現在總共有統計440項的產品那我們每天都公佈在食藥署的官方網站的首頁有一個專區現在總共幾家現在總共440不只440啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4533.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4537.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
440項的產品440個產品然後我給你一個資料我們有參加食安會報對不對有 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4549.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4567.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
113年開始賴清德當總統崇隆他還當行政院長他推動五環2.0死安政策114年度立法院非常支持女人給了110億比113年增加9.7%我們再看喔 來各部會督導落實五環2.0 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4574.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4591.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
六島六部會完成19套資訊系統串聯資料用電子發票追蹤食品交易六項這什麼概念就是要找食品營的概念我們再看喔下個圖我給你看你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4595.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4621.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
民間APP就已經有了你中毒了嗎 給你查一下它就是一個財政部的發票系統裡面它專門focus在我的食品安全這部分就是食品這一部分一塊叫食品運你們根本都沒有做你們跟民間來比你們不知道賣了幾拍不是半拍 也不是一拍也不是兩拍 賣了N拍 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4623.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4645.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
因為我們這邊是因為這些大廠跟中間的一層一層就是第二層第三層的廠商這一邊他們事實上也有明確的交易的這個部分所以我們直接從最源頭的大廠包含中聯跟泰山福茂福壽三家直接走來你跟我這個你跟我這個隨便這樣講我要問你的是老百姓要知道我今天去超商買是 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4646.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4670.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
我買個泡麵 我有沒有中標老百姓關心這個啊我現在可以退錢 老實講 退錢不是我關心的泡麵幾十塊錢 不是我關心的我關心的是 我中標以後怎麼辦啊我請問你啊 要不然先把這個問題解決這個我會說說你沒做因為左翁派院長說修法的方向其中有一個就是視頻運 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4672.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4700.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
所以你們根本就沒有做簡單來講我要強調是財政部花這麼多錢做了電子 雲子 雲端發票的系統你們沒有去把它好第一個沒有用第二個沒有去把它整合民間都不給你們款民間做出來了你說一下馬上知道馬上知道我有沒有買到這個商品有的話可以退錢退錢不是我關心我現在問你你是專業醫生我就問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4701.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4723.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
我要怎麼樣知道我還沒有中標就是我吃了這個東西但是我有沒有這些扁明筆有沒有留在我的肝臟或者留在我的腎臟我怎麼測抽血可不可以報告委員這個因為他事實上不是用抽血驗而且民眾在吃的食物裡面包含他的食物烹調過程中就可能造成更高的本偏僻 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4724.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4746.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
對啊 怎麼樣嘛 我現在就是說我想了解我有沒有對我身體的傷害站在衛福部這邊我們當然是希望說原來油的品質所以我們用這個方式來控管油的品質但是油去到了每一戶的人家裡面它炸雞排過程所產生出來的這個不是我們在油的品質的前端可以處理的所以你還是沒有回答問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4746.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4775.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我要問你說 我關心的不是我去退錢退幾十塊 甚至幾百塊我關心的是 我吃吃到啊我的健康有沒有受影響啊 有沒有大的傷害啊所以我們一直提醒民眾就是盡量在飲食上面盡量減少這種高溫高油的這樣子的飲食因為就算我們原來出產的那個油它是符合標準的它在烹調過程就可能造成更高的本片皮所以你告訴民眾不要吃炸雞排 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4776.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4788.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
其實本來炸雞排就不是我們要鼓勵大家吃的食物啊不要吃烤肉這些都是盡量避免但是當然我知道在民生上大家喜歡我請問沈機長啊就是我剛剛提的那個問題行政院長卓榮泰昨天講的他的修法其中有一個建立時平均 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4799.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4818.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
民間都已經有APP了這部你還不要讀到一下那個好 因為我們以前有看過啊這個食藥署建這幾個好像成效不是挺好的所以我們就會加會強化這一塊因為要靠這一塊啊才能夠啊比較面向啊不要打不如住最後一句話是請你回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4819.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4835.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
你要多久時間可以去把它查清楚給我三個月三個月喔 三個月查清楚來來來 我把這話講完就可以了查清楚 因為食安匯報第二次 卓榮泰主持的就是要建構這個食品運 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4837.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4844.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
所以他昨天講了打自己嘴巴他早就講了啊只是你們沒有做啊食藥署太老大了啊不是食藥署啊衛福部老大在那裡啊院長的話都不聽啊就是整個審計部把他查一下好 篡委好 謝謝我們結束賴世保委員的質詢接下來請郭國恩委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4864.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4868.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
謝謝主席 有請林次長還有包括陳次長市長好 市長辛苦我想今天丟一個概念因為最近大家一直在談說食安就是國安那如果是這樣的話 食安是國安的話那也就代表有些食品業者已經大到不能出包的一種階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4889.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4916.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
就類似於說像是有些金融業者大到不能倒的一個階段如果是這樣子的話或許從這一個亡羊補牢的一個觀點來看待這一個事件的話我們在制度面當中有多少可以調整的地方第一個呢我是想要請問一下問不問說以現在為止上游的中聯半年一次的通報以及第二層的這三家公司三個月一次的通報這個間隔有沒有可能縮短的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4917.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4946.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
是 包養員我們也認為應該要縮短因為因為我們過去的要求就是至少半年驗一次可是像中聯它四月到列月就總共做了29批那所以這個狀況之下如果地方政府它也是只有半年驗一次的話那這個評次真的太短 太長所以我們接下來再調整我們會調整它的這個檢驗評次要縮短那依照不同的這個就是說大豆油的廠的規格半年六個月變三個月或者是原來三個月變一個半月 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4946.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4967.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
或者他的幾個批次之後我們就要驗一次我想這個應該要強化啦因為國人對這個食安非常的重視另外呢從這個內積內控的部分有沒有可能強化的可能我們接下來在食安法的標準我們現在正在規劃就是說因為他們都是要理論上他要送第三方他除了自己實驗室之外還要送第三方 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4967.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4994.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那所以實驗室跟第三方要通報 第三方的部分待會兒本席會跟你就教就是說本身的部分的檢驗品項檢驗密度專業人員的配置關鍵部門的部門步驟行政部門有沒有辦法隨時掌握SGS 例如說像SGS或者是實驗室的標準這個部分是定期本來實驗室都有認證而且很多是拿國際認證但是麻煩是說這個實驗室就算品質很好驗出來有問題他們沒有通報我們就得 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4994.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5019.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
沒有辦法得到資訊 意思是說站在衛福部的一個主管機關來說你要隨時去Watch一些關鍵的一個製程或者是那個情資或者數字他一定要必要立旨的通告以避免系統性的風險的產生我覺得應該去過濾這一個啦 應該去強化這一個業者本身內心內控 老實講那一定要增加成本啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5020.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5041.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那二來呢你要增加行政成本的部分就是說你要監督的部分也非常的重要且關鍵那原因在哪裡本席繼續說明給你聽待會請沈記長上來一下沈記長你去看喔為什麼從金融業的部分來做切入因為其實在2023年的時候啊這一個泰山變天啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5043.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5065.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
2023年泰山變天2024年換福茂變天有經營權一組2025年這兩家公司分別改派中聯的董總結果2026就出事了連在哪裡因為這些市場派入主基本上專業程度都不夠但是資本實力比較強 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5066.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5091.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那以至於呢大家在討論的說這一次中聯有指呢其實是有掩蓋的事實報導上都是這樣子處理誰負責說這個情資這個資料這個數據要不要通報決定選在誰當然是最高的這個負責人啊最高的負責人要聽誰的要聽這些大股東的你去看這個結構下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5094.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5103.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
這個結構當中中聯郵址當中的董事長是由福茂郵址來指派總經理是由泰山來指派這兩個都是市場派的 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5106.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5131.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
問題點就出在這邊啊那我想請次長在旁邊休息一下我請沈記長沈記長你有沒有看到這些問題這問題當中呢我們在制度面上雖然啊在公司法當中的第八條第三項規定實質控制人事負責行事行政責任行政法治責任的人是要實質負責任甚至是最終受益人以至於後面的大股東以及引資董事都應該被追溯 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5132.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5157.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
這件事情你認為是不是應該如此應該這樣是應該這樣那你是不是應該要求啊這相關的部門包括管理上市櫃的金管會或者負責公司管理的這個經濟部有一些具體作為當市場派入侵到一些關鍵產業的時候可能會造成相關的類似的後遺症的時候怎麼處理行長 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5160.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5171.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
這個委員講得很好啦 我們也在瞭解因為不可能靠越久的自主管理啦因為他人性不太合啦人性不是這樣所以自主管理怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5178.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5192.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
所以剛剛委員講的這個經濟部 經管會這個要慢慢也要借進來把這些尤其影響這個人民健康安全的這個因為這個涉及社會很重大 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5193.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5210.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
所以我同意委員 我們會整個盤意思 趙委員的意思啊 把它盤出來尤其啊 盡量吧 因為現在的機制啊 裡面的自主管理是有所以 全市法所有的責任歸到自主管理 但是它又不願意內機內控問題是它又沒有辦法專業管理的情況底下 怎麼辦啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5215.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5231.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
所以第三方認證還有政府的那個政府的加強抽查也很重要但是自主管理啊是一個也是很重要的這個看總的改進這裡頭有幾個層面自主管理第三方認證還有包括我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5234.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5250.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
政府的一個周查那以及呢這個檢舉制度照說我們是環環相扣各種自律他律的制度都應該有結果呢就粗暴在所謂的自主管理粗暴到專業能力不足粗暴在整個經營權的一組對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5252.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5279.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
所以說事後的追討 亡羊補牢在這個部份經濟部跟金管會也討不了責任啦 對不對那請那個沈議長你好好的去思考這個問題我接下來還有一個問題沈議長你在旁邊稍微休息我歡迎一下這個那個次長次長好 謝謝次長剛剛我們有提到所謂的這個第三方的問題啦第三方的問題當中呢其實在昨天的行政院長當中也提到說呢第三方的通報義務不應該只有通報業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5281.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5299.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
是不是也就是說他他應該也要通知行政部門是對不對是也就是說他如何同時同步勾擊通報這是非常重要的是但是以我們第三方的公證機構SGS來說啊相關的這個權力的一個委外啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5300.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5323.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
有沒有人力不足 專業不足的問題專業部分我相信應該OK啦人力的部分也會出現這個問題啊所以說你們是不是應該講一下因為類似我們這個事件當中的第三方的這個權力的這個委託恐怕不是只有衛福部這個單位而已恐怕還有消防 環保 車輛等等啊這些都是問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5325.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5334.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
等到這些問題你們如果該這個事件當中發現了什麼樣的問題第三方發現了什麼問題除了通報程序的問題之外第三方本身的什麼問題也麻煩你們整理出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5335.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5355.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
我們會對第三方相關的責任做整理出來之後 沈機長 麻煩你再來一下沈機長 剛剛你就提到第三方啦 對不對第三方的部分我們把這麼多的公權力委託給第三方第三方在這次通報的情況底下顯然制度也有所缺漏的地方嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5355.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5375.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那你站在審計部的高位當中是不是也應該透過這個時候去審視相關部門當中對於第三方的委託過度的依賴那以至於呢當他出包的時候責任誰來扛是憲政部門來扛啊也是造成國人的恐慌啊你有沒有看到這個問題有 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5379.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5389.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
請說我們會去前面了解現在的第三方相關單位給第三方的那個驗證的這個部分我們會前面盤一次看看是哪些單位你要盤到什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5397.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5412 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
就我剛剛有答應前面一個委員三個月內這個也納入三個月的範圍啦對我怕三個月以後大家就會忘記這件事情啦但是我會牢牢記住我盡量把這個事情啊幫忙勾引那個沈議長你以前也寫過一個審計部曾經有提過這一頭有幾個關卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5415.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5443.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
一個呢是源頭的管理的邊際財產人員不足的問題啊這個類似啊以前你也寫過我不曉得你寫過之後行政部門有沒有改啦這是第一個問題第二個呢以前也曾經寫過食安人路第一線也就是市場後的部分在衛福部的時候編制目前的人力只有86人啊地方政府的人力只有463人啊那以地方政府來說第一線的市場後人力更加的重要情況底下 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5444.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5470.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
編制人員還是不足啦我們提醒了編制查案行政院給了33人那這個地方的部分我們會再查一次再查一次再查一下以現在地方政府的財政能力如何以現在地方政府財政能力如以落實這些人力編制 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5472.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5496.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
應該整個財務修正以後這個食安準例我們會幫忙食藥署還有一個機制要處理 審計部自己也曾經提到監局案件很少 獎金都發不出去問題你都發現啊 但是問題還是問題啊那為什麼想成這個問題 獎金的機制也要建立很好的獎金機制你三個月又寫一次問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5497.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5504.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
結果問題還是變成問題還是沒有解決問題我們會追蹤我們會強力追蹤我剛剛講的都是你講過的問題對我們會強力追蹤到現在是問題以後會不會是問題如果他不改善我們會公佈這些單位不改善的情形好我等著你的魄力的表現 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5518.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5534.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
不要再寫三個月一份報告又同樣的問題啊好不好我們知道因為我們發現這一次產生我們通知了問題都是你寫過的邊境人類不足講進報告不足去這些都是他旅的機構啊對不對所以我們現在不改善我們公佈問題寫嚴重一點公佈一點看這問題能不能解決謝謝市長 謝謝市長謝謝郭國文委員接下來請林黛樺委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5552.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5565.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
好有請衛福部民政次委員長等一下我把這個簡報用好 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5579.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5605.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
好來我本身今天我先問四個問題也就是現在我們人民想要知道的第一個還要查多久才可以讓民眾安心報告委員我們現在就是查到現在的話中聯目前確定有問題是五批郵品那這五批會持續就是永久下架不會讓它相關後製的產品都不會出來還有多少未爆彈還會被查出還是已經現在已經止血了 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5605.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5628.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
目前以中聯它的這個源頭4到6月份另外24批我們現在正在檢驗就是它24批它相關的產品正在檢驗檢驗合格才能上市所以只要這個往後就是已經可以讓人民安心了我們會持續進進這個步驟所以從你爆發到查到現在你預計它24批再查完之後檢驗合格上市這樣已經歷時多久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5629.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5655.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我們事實上是6月30接到這個通知那7月1號立刻啟動後續的處理可是它自主報自主產業鏈的通報是4月底所以從4月底到現在7月三個月如果照你這樣的話民眾已經不知道吃下多少的毒油了那我們能不能抓到這些物料最終的使用店面 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5657.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5683.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
物料物料對你這些產品出來到最終的使用店面是你可以查得到嗎我們現在因為這個最前面最上面是中聯油脂那再來就是泰山福茂福壽那福茂福壽泰山他們分別都有他們往下游進下去的食品工廠但是當然如果他單純那瓶油賣到一個一般民眾的家裡這個部分我們是由廠商這邊還有我們公開資訊讓民眾可以自行下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5684.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5712.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
自行下架所以是不能直接掌握到有一些如果是不能完全掌握到最終的使用點第三個問題業者主動申報後損失是只有這個批次還是全面下架現在就是中聯相關的這一些我們驗到有問題的不論是中聯自己驗到或泰山福茂驗到有問題這五批目前是全部永久下架那剩下那個預防性下架的另外24批相關的那些我們現在正在做檢驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5713.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5739.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
好 如果全面下架罰了錢 然後你認為民眾能不能安心了我的食安自救該怎麼做呢如果我燒燙傷 你們還會說沖 脫 泡 蓋 送那現在食安自救 你們就開一個記者會這個記者會請出了一個學者告訴大家本品筆沒有急性毒藥 一兩週後就可以排出體外了 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5739.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5762.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
所以就告訴人民說我的第一級致癌物質啊 本瓶比啊是對人民健康無礙的所以你們這樣的一個記者會對人民能夠安心嗎我們當然會盡全力讓民眾對於這個食安的部分能夠建立信心不過也跟委員這邊再說明一下就是說第一個事情事實上對於有品這邊驗本瓶比事實上是在跟他的評管 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5764.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5776.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
今天的食安新警訊是系統性的製程風險我們過去的思維從蓄意的黑心添加到現在的大型油脂代製廠的爆發已經是製程異常源頭管控失效供應鏈連鎖反應 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5782.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5796.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
這三個問題已經是我們沒有辦法掌控的我們採取的是被動防堵的盲區我們出現在邊境以及後市場的管理的結構性視角急需系統性數位的轉型這是本席會有個具體的建議謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5798.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5813.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
那到底全球食安的機制台灣在哪裡呢我就以新加坡日本美國台灣在核心邏輯上新加坡是屬於高壓防堵派日本是法治自律派美國是風險規範派以及台灣的現行體制 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5814.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5818.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
新加坡是90%仰賴進口所以事先是高壓嚴防邊境是百分百的查驗日本是全面強制HSCCP的執行偏重自主點檢那美國是全責分離高風險的場市政府每日派員駐場 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5832.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5858.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
但是他憑在邊境的查房的是利用大數據的篩選常態不過是百分之一到二的抽驗台灣是平時審理暫時集中出事後被動的動態查驗常態是百分之二到十的抽驗我講的是邊境查驗遇到事情的時候我們會提高到百分之五十到一百但是呢我們的這個人力的不足等一下本席也會在一些有一些數據的呈現 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5859.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5882.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
目前的違規應變是什麼我們下游大廠主動通報下架耗費龐大的行政社會成本還不見得能夠止血好現在看到我們行政院的三級評管核心變革的重點本席認為還是一樣落伍叫做虛硬歧視你們做的不過是自主檢驗頻率抽長檢驗的頻率 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5886.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5900.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
突擊檢查的頻率提高真的我們的人力能夠負擔嗎頂多再增加第三方檢驗好這樣的高頻率我不知道您要提高到什麼程度面對我們食安體制的天花板兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5902.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5917.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
嚴苛的物理跟人手天花板人力與申報的數據極端的失衡我們平均每位邊境稽查人員每年要審查近萬件的報單如果你們要提高這種常態的檢驗率是要等同新加坡的百分百查驗嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5918.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5946.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那這個邊境物流就會徹底的癱瘓那面對你們的本席剛才的第二個問題民眾的問題我面對台灣擁有40萬家的夜市 路邊攤 微型餐飲這種汪洋大海般的小吃王國地方全國地方的衛生室加起來400多人無能力落實每日等國的高頻率跟無疫警的定期查驗所以你現在行政院提出了這樣的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5947.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5952.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
我們根本做不到因為如果的頻率要達到50%到100%甚至要面對這樣的一個數十萬家的一個這樣的小吃王國你怎麼可能做得到再來我們進口食品的批數全台每年進口的食品總批數是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5966.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5983.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
60萬批我們負責把關的邊境茶葉專業人數是多少100多人我們後市場茶宴全台400人要辦什麼藥品化妝品包括全台數10萬的小吃店包括你這些的食品廠食品加工廠等400人好再來我如果要 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5988.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6009.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
這個常態性的這個高比例的抽驗就會引發港口的攤販危機我們目前檢驗跟物流的隱形瓶頸時間差會造成物流寒冬化學毒品的標準的譬如說這些標準的毒物的實驗室檢驗就三到五天如果你拉高只純粹沒有配套的拉高的這樣比例的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6010.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6012.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
這個拉高到50%到100%那目前每天將有數萬棟的貨物滯留港口台灣的忍戀跟港口的倉儲24小時內就會瞬間癱瘓了導致生鮮大面積的腐敗貿易中斷跟物價飆漲所以目前我也 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6030.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6052.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
了解食藥署你今天所採取的平時審理只有邊境百分之二到十的一個查驗暫時集中的折衷方法而但是這種被動戰略遇到系統性的風險大宗食物用油的污染譬如這一次就會破綻擺出好再看到你們檢視現行的非追不可的系統食品追溯追蹤管理系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6053.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6074.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
的這個資訊系統 兩大時效第一個你們資本跟上傳時效是嚴重延誤的現行法規允許食品驗者定期上傳電子發票跟進村獲得資料所以你看到的時候是上個月的資料黃金藍結期早已錯過有毒食品根本就已經吃到消費者的毒品時效二 你們現在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6075.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6098.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
做法只追流向不追製程品質所以你現在申報的履歷只有A廠商把貨賣到B廠商的商業流向沒有記錄A廠商在精煉加工時究竟使用了幾度的高溫的製程數據所以對於製程控制不良現行的追溯系統的防範是無能為力的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6100.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6116.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
再來所以本席主張全面導入GS1Sumrise2027的革命性改革GS1就是目前全世界在用的八個QR Code的一個規範組織他要推出全明年2027年全球導入這個Sumrise2027讓生產 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6121.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6127.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
物流銷售的全面物聯網化全球條碼全面升級從一維條碼到存在海量數據的二維條碼以及也就是說在這個這一次的這個食安防禦的終極武器這個三段是2027的導入我們生產物流銷售的全面物聯網化是包括你從 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6144.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6146.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
生產過程當中儲存的品項代碼生產批號、有效日期以及在雲端即時動態履歷的串聯這樣會徹底終結資本的申報延遲與資訊的斷裂 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6159.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6164.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
好這樣的一個GS1 2D條碼會重塑我們溯源體系的三大支柱大家都會想源頭管理那你的科技方法是什麼呢就是這一套它能夠在智慧身份證當中我們目前的條碼機制是沒有辦法細分批次的但是導入了這個之後呢是連我們的生產批號有效日期以及相關的訊息都能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6186.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6202.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
精準鎖定售屋的批次而這樣的導入也能夠在消費者端數位防禦的咱們POS系統能夠阻斷一旦檢驗出有毒的批號雲端系統一鍵鎖定全台超商POS系統瞬間同步電源刷條碼直接彈出警示完成秒擊的實體攔截 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6208.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6211.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
以及這個系統導入能夠B2B2C廠商對廠商到消費者全盤的一碼多用全程透光機茶園物流商消費者我們全程都可以知道讓人民安心 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6224.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6232.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
最後在我們櫃台什麼叫智慧聯防櫃台其實是食安最前線在這個GS1 SUMMER2027的導入生產物流銷售的全面物聯網當中用技術的精準度取代人力的勞動力用我們一旦檢驗出這個毒品的時候我能用幾秒鐘拉出 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6244.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6247.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
供應鏈的數位狀能夠速兼完成物理阻斷不需要動員龐大機場人在市場上苦苦追趕追價好 這一項當中我本席有四個建議第一個 之前源頭登記的白名單請食藥組建立精煉核心製程實地認證制這在我們的半導體業已經非常成熟的一個機制好 請林委員快速完成質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6270.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6279.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
好 謝謝如果沒有通過這個經驗核心的那你就百分百逐批查驗你也推動HACCP的法律責任跟數位制強制大廠的控制關鍵控制點數據及時的上鏈第三個 季節性的動態駐廠集合全台少數掌握油品命脈的基礎設施級的核心油廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6292.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6307.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
生產高峰的時候直接指派人員進駐從除油的草源頭進行預防性的抽驗以及你們現在要修食安法限期推動大宗物資加工大漲全面實施GS網21條碼最後食安沒有零風險但是台灣可以追求食安高韌性的智慧防線GS網散亂者2027的導入讓我們生產 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6319.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6333.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
物流 銷售都能夠全面的物聯網可以簡單的一句話回應嗎謝謝委員 我們會盡盡改善好 請用書面回覆 謝謝我們結束林代化委員的質詢接下來請賴會員委員好 謝謝主席請那個省記長 維護部次長 教育部次長請部長 請次長 主記長 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6350.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6353.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
張振翅 林振翅委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6354.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6378.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
三位早安我想中聯有旨從暗化到現在在野黨不斷地攻擊中央認為食安的問題中央應該要負起譴責但是在我國的中央地方政府的一個分錢的角色上其實在以我看來地方政府才是食安問題的第一線的一個處理機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6380.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6409.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那在野黨忽視了地方政府的一個重要性把全部的責任都往中央推如果在野黨不是憲法沒有學好我認為這樣的蓄意擾亂政府的一個施政不是笨就是可惡所以我在這裡我要先首先請教衛務部次長就是說我們根據食品安全衛生管理法的第二條跟第五條我們已經非常明確的把這個中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6410.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6432.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
主管的一個機關是衛福部 地方的一個主管機關就是縣市政府那這樣子已經非常明確的寫清楚了那你認為這個把中央跟地方的權責是不是把它分清楚了是 這審法有很明確的規定相關的權責 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6433.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6461.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
是啊那我們從第二條裡頭我們來看啊這個地方政府在這整個食安問題裡頭他一定有一定的角色嘛那如果地方政府召開食品安全匯報的時候是不是一定可以有效的控制在這裡我請教你在食品安全衛生管理法的第五條中他明定各級主管機關應該依科學實證建立一個食品安全監測的一個系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6462.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6473.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那在這個監測中如果發現有危害食品衛生的一個安全疑慮的事件應該要主動查驗這裡的一個監察指的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6474.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6499.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
這邊其實包含地方它要地方事實上在食安法第41條就有提到在相關的稽查的部分是地方政府要進行稽查是所以說就是地方政府要稽查啦是那我們過去其實111到114年包含到今年我們都有專案補助地方政府去做稽查不過不同的地方政府評次還是不太一樣有些他可能就是以我們定的最低標準去查有些他查的比較多次 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6500.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6503.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
好 謝謝次長那我接著問沈記長沈記長在審計部所有的一個審計報告當中我們是不是曾經對所謂的食品衛生安全檢測的系統裡頭那個去做過審計那我比較那個想那個請教那個就是沈記長 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6521.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6533.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
在審計部的報告中看來就是重要審核意見中並沒有針對這個食品安全衛生管理法第五條的一個監測體系做過任何的審計調查我講了這樣對不對這個部分就看他的要談的定員那個範圍這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6541.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6542.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
我們是在整個十萬五萬裡面的問題裡面我們是發現第三方驗證的機構這個地方斷了鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6554.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6557.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
所以我們有提出來所以說希望啊這些通通能夠啊那個第三方驗證要去補強因為第三方驗證啊這個消失的通報防線我們看到了審計部你的報告僅指出說 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6572.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6594.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
部分的食品業者他沒有落實的主動通報這個食安的一個事件那食藥署他僅回覆說你要加強宣導並且要督導地方的衛生局從此以外別無他法嗎?真的是這個樣子嗎?做什麼事都有方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6595.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6600.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
但是我們顯然看到了這一次中年有的游子漢事件我們看不到方法但是我們現在他提出來我們尊重但是如果真正還是影響第一個我們要公佈他族型的不利第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6618.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6640.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我們會強化地方或是強化中央檢查這一部分沈機長我覺得對於這整體的一個食藥署在地方政府督導上到底出現了什麼樣的一個問題到底是業者未落實通報還是品管的驗證不足還是邊界的查驗人力的一個不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6642.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6656.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
這個食藥署在對地方政府的督導上到底有什麼問題讓地方政府可以對業者沒有通報是睜一隻眼閉一隻眼那審計部你該負的是什麼樣的一個責任因為你已經看到了問題了 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6658.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6662.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
我們是看到問題 這個問題出來 我們就會提醒相關的單位那這個部分 大家如果這次出現中央地方整個系統上有一個問題我會全面性的做聯合審計 把這個問題抓住 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6681.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6696.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
把他抓出來幫忙衛福部把這問題解決我再跟你提到了一個台中市市政府衛生局他的一個數字的政績跟真實的一個漏洞你地方稽查的一個假象你審計部已經在112年就是審核意見裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6699.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6715.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
你已經特別提醒他了你的抽驗結果沒有及時的一個公開在113年你的食品業者已經兩年沒有稽查可是我們看到台中市政府食品衛生稽查的次數111年到113年 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6718.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6735.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
他這個稽查的次數年年的上升可是這竟然裡頭有98家的食品工廠他其實是兩年沒有派人去稽查那這個事情你要怎麼來講說你們對台中市政府的審計有做到了一個審計的一個稽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6741.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6747.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那你的專案稽查可以不可以我會要求台中市審計處加強那我會因為這個是地方我會這次會用中央和地方聯合的方式下去把他整個找出來我是希望能夠幫衛福部或者食藥署能夠把這個問題因為這個問題牽涉很大牽涉人民的關係牽涉他的品行 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6771.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6784.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
我一個專案的一個審計針對就是全國各縣市食品安全衛生做一個專案的審計有沒有辦法有 我們照委員的意思來做好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6787.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6803.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那接著我請教教育部次長就是說沒有登錄的食安的一個黑洞我們如何保護國家未來的主人現在我們看到了就是說校園食材的登錄平台其實在這三年來 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6804.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6828.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
毫無進展我們看到了竟然還有91.74%是沒有登錄的一個食安的一個黑洞那這個存在在輝瑩幼兒園市立幼兒園還有準公共那個幼兒園那三年過去了到115年登錄依然不到一成國教署的一個檢討改進形同西設次長你怎麼看待這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6829.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6842.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
委員我想這是112年度的決算報告那我跟委員報告在112年度的時候當時的幼兒園的時增這個平台的那個加速是8%那現在已經來到了115年的65% |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6845.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6858.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
那整體的幼兒園的那個時登平台的這個數字是包括公立跟私立非營利幼兒園還有這個互助式教保服務準公幼兒園已經來到74%所以說是在從這幾年我們就是因為爭取了食安的這個相關的預算所以我們也在輔導這個相關的這個私立幼兒園 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6867.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6874.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
你認為我現在提供給你的這是112年度的決算這個是112年的一個進度資料是正確的就是因為省紀部有這樣子的一個指導所以我們在113年 114年 115年包括到今年我們陸續輔導所有的私立幼兒園因為私立幼兒園有的規模非常小它人力也不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6890.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6913.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
我們又沒有強制性叫他一定要來參加這個實燈評裁但是我們會用輔導補助的方式所以公立幼兒園也好或者是非營利幼兒園也好或者是準公幼也好這些政府有補助的私立幼兒園幾乎百分之百都已經參加這個實燈評裁那私立幼兒園的部分呢確實比例比較少大概不到兩成所以我們剛才我們在了解這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6914.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6936.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
我們從112年開始我們開始逐步在輔導這些私立的幼兒園那我們也在想說怎麼樣來協助那個人力比較不足因為那個登錄的品項不是只有照片不是只有食材它有食材有很多包括這些是油還有各種的品項所以如果那私立幼兒園的這個員所編制就很少那你說一個員所三十幾個人四十幾個人二十幾個人市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6937.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6963.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
那這樣子我們也不能遺漏私立幼兒園那針對私立幼兒園的部分你們有什麼樣的準備報告委員我們這次7月1號收到這個衛福部的通知之後我們其實7月2號就完成清查然後通知各地方縣市政府那有石燈平台的就是透過石燈平台沒有透過石燈平台清查的這些私立幼兒園我們是實體去清查一個一個聯絡那你的人力夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6964.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6991.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
對我們是透過地方政府的協力合作透過地方政府那有這個就是呈現出來最大的我們今天我個人我們會問你萬一地方政府像你台中市政府你這麼大的一個疏漏的時候所以才會造成今天中聯油脂這麼大的一個困難你看整個中聯油脂它的工廠它的公司全部都是在台中在台中市 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6992.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7015.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
所以就是說我們現在也是擔心就是說地方政府的一個分工沒有辦法做到非常的一個完善所以在這裡要跟次長再一次的提醒那我們也希望那個那個審計長就是審計審計處的一個能量一起出來我們不希望這個系統性的一個崩壞讓食安的防護網垂直的一個崩塌謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7017.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7022.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
好 謝謝我們結束賴慧媛委員的執行接下來請劉淑冰委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7043.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7048.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
好 謝謝主席那有請陳審計長還有衛福部請審計長 請林次長還有教育部次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7061.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7077.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
劉妍好好 沈機長好喔那我們看到中研有職呢他驗出了一級致癌物本便比超標我們也看到食藥署呢他祭出了上億元的罰款但是仍然抹不掉行政院食安 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7078.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7101.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
五環2.0破工的事實那在主基礎跟審計部的報告已經指出了行政院的食安預算從105年的9.2億攀升到115年的47.2億那10年來有超過到5倍但是我們看到10年來除了現在中聯郵址還有包括蘇丹紅保齡茶市這些問題都顯示我們的食安政策失職 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7102.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7122.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
我們現在今天最重要的報告是要講說114年的食安五環政策當中呢審計部的報告當中是指出啊那個質詢率只有73.6%那最主要是因為衛福部食藥署在辦理食品藥物國家級實驗大樓的興建計畫有多次流標的這個結果監察院有相關的報告說他的預算呢這項大樓的興建呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7130.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7150.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
預算翻倍到39億也是延宕5年的這個重大的工程那我要問本席想要問的是說審計部在發出改善函之後呢對本案的今年初是否能夠今年年底能夠完工啊如實達成的目標啊有沒有持續的追蹤採取了哪些具體的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7152.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7156.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
我們發現這個食藥室大樓,對食藥室來講,對食安來講都非常重要所以他的環境要幫他弄好所以我們發現他執行了後,所以我們有專案去把他調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7171.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7181.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
所以這一個部分 石鑰匙他們已經在改進之中但是目前的進度已經達到了78%所以今年會不會完成可能鑰匙鑰匙等一下我就再問市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7188.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7216.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
他已經改善到進度已經提前到78%但是這一個案子延宕多年所以我們把這個案子送給監察院希望監察院幫忙了解監察院也有提出一些意見希望史耀石把這個事情趕快做好所以你們是持續的去追蹤就對了我們會持續追蹤我們會依序追蹤到他完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7216.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7244.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
好 那我就想請那個林市長 衛福部林市長市委好 您好那請問目前該食藥署大樓的食藥實驗大樓的工程跟計畫執行率到底是多少今年年底能夠完工嗎目前的工程進度是完成了88.23%我們也很希望能夠進出完工其實我們每天都會看到他正在進正在蓋那因為食藥大樓這邊沒有蓋好的話我們食藥署其實要另外再租辦公室我們也希望趕快蓋好趕快回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7245.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7270.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
好 那當然說預計今年也沒有辦法完工然後真正營運大概是什麼時候我們目前希望跟委員報告 那個前瞻的這個大樓裡面分兩塊一個就是剛才市長所說的是整棟的大樓那一塊是目前工程進度8.23還有一塊是涉及實驗室裡面就是實驗室 現有實驗室的一個精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7272.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7275.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
所以明年才完工嗎明年會營運嗎如果是我們全部員工的那個大樓是明年四五月可以營運那實驗室的部分確實那邊涉及很多很精密的部分可能會再往後兩年 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7289.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7314.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
可以預期的啦 那我主要想問的是次長或是相關的人員跟他說 那這個完工營運的功能到底是什麼尤其在我們這個食品安全管理上面有什麼注意因為我們這次看到在食安的五環當中有破口的地方就是因為院長也說他現在對於說巴西的大豆還不確定他是不是他是不是能夠排除在外嘛然後包括說要上架下架的話都是要檢驗嘛想要問的是這個食藥實驗大樓的部分對於食安的 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7315.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7337.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
問題能不能有什麼樣的幫助我先跟委員說明一下就是說目前現有的這個包含這些地方的食品廠的茶盒依照食安法第41條是地方政府那當然我們現在因為有預防性下架的產品以及我們認為有問題的產品必須要來做相關的檢驗那所以檢驗的量呢當然我們希望能夠提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7337.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7360.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
都是在第三方的責任第三方的檢驗期間嗎大家對於第三方這邊是認為是可以的那當然我們在實驗室的部分有一些實驗室必須要去我們會服務相關的實驗室的部分我是不是請副署長來這邊說明好 跟委員說明喔那這次可以參與檢驗的話國內一共有九家實驗室大概量能一百多件快一百六十六件那針對這件事情的釐清最關鍵的檢驗的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7362.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7380.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那是由我們自己食藥署的國家實驗室來執行那這個執行的進度目前已經整個都動員全部的就是動員同仁跟相關機器那我們也會依院長指示在這個禮拜內盡速完成所有的檢驗 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7380.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7400.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那所以我重點是說 這個食藥實驗國家級的嘛那它的功能的部分 這邊是不是可以在引導尤其在像它毒品啦 或者在食安的這些部分更加的精進其實就是對於一些比較關鍵或者是很比較一般廠商可能不承接的案子我們在食藥大樓這邊未來的實驗室我們有國家級的身份來做處理好 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7400.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7416.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我希望說這個大樓這麼重要希望說你們在會後給我一個報告這部片他們未來的實驗性在國際國家級的到底扮演什麼角色尤其是說能夠促進到我們的因為等於說食藥署已經看到這樣的一個發展的先進的趨勢是 我們會給委員報告好 謝謝那請教育部次長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7425.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7441.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
好 市長您好我們這次看到校園的食安事件就是層出不窮也看到的是這裡團山業者曾經把收水桶或者是當作湯桶去放進去還有菜裡面都還看到有螺絲釘 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7442.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7457.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那這次呢也引發了大概只有200多所的學校到底受到就是說有受到影響啊那我們也看到最重要的是這一次的食藥署的統計當中啊在所有的發生食物中毒的案件當中呢其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7458.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7482.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
學校是第三個 僅次於餐廳跟住家是第三高的這種發生場域而且一發生的話 它的人數就很多省基部也寫了說這個部分應該要教育部跟校園應該是加強食品的三級管理在校園裡面要進行那請問這一次的因應毒油的事件因為好在現在也是在暑假當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7483.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7503.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
請問教育部對於學校在三級的衛生的管理實戰的管理上面有沒有什麼機制在加強的好 謝謝委員的關心我們現在是依照學校衛生法第22條的第6項的授權我們對於學校的餐廳定有學校餐廳廚房原生消費合作社的衛生管理辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7504.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7519.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
那這部分呢我們有要求就是地方的政府他必須落實每學年稽查一次那學校的部分呢自主管理內機的部分是每週至少一次那中央的部分呢我們是不定期抽查是突起 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7520.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7537.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
好 這樣看起來就三級在教育部上面的三級但是我要跟委員報告因為國人普遍重視學童的營養午餐的衛生管理所以像很多學校家長會他幾乎是每天即使他不會吃一週只有一次那像台中市的話我知道他們不是一學年一次他是一學期至少一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7538.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7554.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那這個部分呢我們當然在這次的食安事件之後我們也會再進行三級管理機制的一個檢討那你們加強地方現在像台中的部分現在一學期是不是也要可以各縣市也許加強也是一學期不是一學年 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7555.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7582.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
對 所以說這一次我們會整體來檢討譬如說剛才有很關心到那個食材登錄的平台的那個百分比我們也是在這幾年把學校的那個食材登錄的百分比提高到99%這個清楚那有三張EQ那我現在想詢問這部分因為這次看到的是有在二級品管的部分有這幾個你看到有食用油就是正式出包的還有乳品啊然後還有像這個豆類等等的就想說這邊是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7584.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7609.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
衛福部的管理它是在二級的部分的品管是強勢登記是不是在教育部這邊這一對盤點午餐供應鏈當中完成高風險食材因為即使有三章營運可是這些部分油品、蛋品跟醬料這部分的溯源管理是不是有特別再加強還是本來就有做了對 我想這登錄的那個我們是以主要食材為登錄的品項那這些高風險的食材我們當然每次現在有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7611.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7613.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
這些部分高風險的這些食材有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7614.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7641.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
二級品管這個二級品管是我們食藥署這邊我們對於這一類產品我們列為HACCC的我知道但是我在問的是教育部這邊因為現在如果食用油在你的營養午餐好幾百萬的學生都要用那你們這邊可以加強嗎因為三張EQ是指的是要有溯源可是這些部分看起來好像不是主要的但是你看到油品每個菜籌都用到有食材我們這次那個是要登錄的油品是有登錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7642.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7663.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
所以這次才我們很快速7月1號一接到那個食藥署的通知我們7月2號就完成初步的清查而且我們擴大我們只要有油我們就全部都1300多個學校我們就開始清查然後呢在7月2號之後陸續一直清查到7月14號為止就確定是260所學校這個有受到影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7664.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7693.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
好那目前你們是不是可以把這個現在在盤點的部分已經有清查的資料給本席可以可以好那我們當然希望是說營養午餐這邊部分呢也可以看到說因為你們有這個三重大的五個方向嘛這部分我其實就很相信要問的是說但是你們在114年有變這五大方向是你們教育部的補助那現在重要的部分因為財政收支劃分法的影響嘛那你們這部分的五大項的這個增跟減這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7694.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7721.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
我們都有跟地方因為因應財化法有些事權還有預算有做這個移列的方式請他們要陣列不精確的部分我們都有做溝通那你們現在已經還沒有定案是嗎有已經定案了已經定案那這部分資料是可以給本席我們4月24號就已經跟地方政府這個資料就是在五大項本來是你們中央部分的是不是可以給我們本席就說怎麼樣你討論什麼結果可以可以好OK好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7723.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7726.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
謝謝 我們結束劉淑冰委員的質詢現在請李燕秀委員質詢OK 邀請林靜儀次長我們沈記長 陳沈記長 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7751.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7776.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
好 邀請林市長跟陳審計長上來質詢建議市長民眾人民其實最害怕的不只是食品安全出問題最害怕的是政府知道了畢業者慢通知的比媒體還要晚甚至是在處理的過程當中所謂的風險溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7778.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7785.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
科學依據到底足不足夠處理的過程20%含油脂下架處理的是荒倉軸板 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7787.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7808.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
對於致癌物所有的民眾我能不吃我當然都不要吃我想你非常清楚所以百分之二十那個油脂含的門檻是在委員會定的嗎那個是在一百零六年的食安專家諮詢會議所他們的一個下架的討論專家會議大家制定的標準我們後續會做檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7810.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7836.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
所以我就請沈記長因為我也看到你今天在業務報告裡面也有提到說幾個問題點包括食品食藥署推動食品業者自主衛生管理我覺得這個可能有問題未來要調整所以我看到幾點你的建議包括卓院長昨天講的食安五環有要調整的空間我們要修食安法可見 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7837.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7864.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
很多都是制度面我們要再做調整你同不同意同意次長 林靜儀次長你同不同意是 我們絕對制度面調整好 可見到目前事情發生到現在從6月30號到現在很多就是制度面的調整當然制度面調整之後執行面就會跟著修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7865.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7881.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
包括要不要密集去做檢查中央跟地方如何再次分工的更細一點所以是制度面有相當大的問題所以所有的民眾朝野大家都認為食安法要修法是制度面的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7883.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7907.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那包括过去我们食药署的时候今天是副署长来署长过去他在学者的时候为什么我们邀请食药署署长因为他自己也是食安专家学者过去论文也写非常多但非常遗憾今天食药署署长没来包括过去强调说有暂时性的处分要预防性的下架法治化要及早的介入防止危害扩大 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7908.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7925.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
這都是過去食藥署制定的食品安全衛生預防性的下架原則但過去都是原則它的法律未接是不足的一般的民眾他不需要是食安專家他都知道只要有問題應該是全部都要下架才對但是為什麼原民對於民進黨政府這次處理的不滿 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7933.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7948.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
20%有含油脂的下架所以會造成未來可能有含油的有問題的還在食品架上這就是人民對於現在食品安全不信任最主要的原因是人民對於現在民進黨政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7949.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7972.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
底下食安信心完全崩潰最主要的理由我講到現在市長你同意嗎報告委員其實剛剛提到這個過去的原則我們會再做一些調整跟修正那大概7月4號當天其實就已經找專家所以那個20person當然專家這邊給我們這樣的意見但是後來民眾對於專家的意見的反應不同所以我們後來做預防性下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7974.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
7980.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
民進黨政府執政邁入第十年十三五環每次常常在破洞我剛剛一直強調不需要是學者專家一聽到有問題應該是全面先下架這就是讓人民看到政府的魄力跟決心 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
7999.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8025.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
這也會讓業者 所有的業者上井發條我們食藥署的署長在2019年發表了一篇論文食安要回到劑量跟曝露量零減出但在這一次食藥署拿來當成不必要全面下架的理由其實我覺得這個就是民眾在整件事情當中對於整個衛福部處理的不滿對於民進黨政府對於食安處理不滿最主要的理由因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8027.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8051.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
組長在長期在學術上用劑量來去決定就是劑量決定毒性但是面對現在所謂的一級致癌物到底說應該用最嚴格的標準是我的孩子我的家人哪怕是吃到0.00001我都不要他吃到任何一點致癌我原在烹調等等的過程中不是只有油的源頭會有這一個事實上在烹調高溫蒸煮都會產生本皮 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8053.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8072.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
這就是為什麼大家都非常重視實案的理由但是政府應該把關而未把關應注意而未注意這就是政府的責任不是嗎這個部分我們當然目前對於這些相關的有品製程廠它的HACC它的標準跟製程會做一些嚴格要求我知道你要講什麼因為昨天院長已經都講了但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8073.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8095.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
包括我們食品雲花了數十億元來處理但是仍舊在第一時間我們沒有辦法追溯到以前食品雲說非追不可但是最後處理的是到底源頭來自哪裡到底上下游廠商有哪些或者影響到的相關的食品到底範圍擴到多大 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8097.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8109.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
照理說有食品雲應該很快啪啪啪電腦一出來哪些有可能中聯的上下有發票的跟他有進出貨的很快就可以查出來但是我們看到整件事情處理過程當中食藥署甚至是動用許多的稽查人員去追我們不是AI政府有花食品雲數十億元嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8119.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8147.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
到最後是所有的食安的所有的稽查人員像消防員一樣到處四處救火這就是每次發生食安事件的時候我們都說是頭痛一頭腳痛一腳照理說是一個電腦出來一個電腦出來跟中聯有關的上下游去追查檢調去追查到發票他的進出貨單照理說全部都可以看得出來甚至下面都可以追得出來才對中聯泰山福茂福壽這邊事實上在食品雲的相關的追蹤都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8149.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8171.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
報告委員食品雲裡面包括五大部分那其中有一個就是追溯追蹤那追溯追蹤裡面我們有要求這些業者大的業者是要進入這個系統去做申報他的原料來源跟產品的流向那這次的事件裡面中聯泰山復售等這些業者確實有在這些資料所以我們在第一線是也可以從那邊6月30號到現在7月15號 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8175.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8189.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
所有有問題的可能有問題的是不是都在都已經下架這是我第一個問題第二個問題你們現在要修那個食安五環2.0版要修食安法那我就有幾個問題要請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8191.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8220.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
人民會問說那未來幾天如果再發生事件的話是不是一個星期或三天就可以全部下架有沒有這樣的信心?次長委員我們當然希望是這樣的事情你不要跟我講希望他的前頭原料他前頭的評管本來就應該要能夠有製程上的標準今天很多從過去從事發到現在許多委員會已經排了專報卓院長昨天也講了你們也要修食安五環2.0要修食安法 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8221.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8236.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
以後如果再發生事情幾天可以全部下架幾天中央可以知道甚至通報地方下去抽查去執行一個星期 三天 兩天 經濟管理怎麼去做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8241.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8264.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我們當然在未來的精進的方向希望能夠避免發生這一類的事情必須做所謂下架那因為下架的事情影響不論是對民眾或對廠商都是非常複雜跟麻煩的事情那所以這一次的事情政府不應該怕麻煩 人民可以怕大事情人民可以讓政府依照你有的手邊的工具跟法律的手段去處理但是我要問的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8266.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8287.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
幾天你修食安法內容我不管你怎麼修2.0 3.0 4.0以後當有問題被通報的時候幾天可以全部下架我們的目標是要第一時間就掌握然後讓這些產品不要上架類似像第一時間你也當過民意黨你也坐在這個位置上你也站在這個位置上質詢過 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8289.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8296.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
到底是一個星期還是三天 還是兩天不要告訴我第一時間因為你們都會講第一時間下架我只問你未來未來當再發生有食品安全事件的時候你是不是會第一時間就知道修了2.0版本之後食安法你會不會第一時間就知道那未來如果再發生事情 知道之後是不是三天就全部下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8315.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8333.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
我們這一次光是還沒有修 這次六月三十知道之後我們在兩天之內就要求七月二號 七月一號開始我們就要求你不要跟我講 你不要跟我拖時間七月二號我不要跟你吵架我是真的未來的事情 未來的事件修了食安法 修了食安五環二點零之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8334.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8356.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
未來24小時之內有機會通報甚至是發生重大事件的時候是不是一天之內或兩天之內或36小時之內會公佈所有的流向你這樣子修法才有意義嘛你現在在這邊排專報才有意義嘛這次的修法就是朝向這個方向能夠在24小時之內得到這些資訊廠商要通報不然的話廠商這次他delay了兩個多月 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8358.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8371.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
36小時之內有沒有機會全部下架我覺得這些都是要交代的清清楚楚我們今天花那麼多時間在這邊質詢再修食安法2.0才有意義要不然的話修的都是假的沒有意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8372.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8389.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
都靠業者自主管理政府現在有修法的工具跟手段沒有精進的手法你沒有破例告訴民眾說以後有問題我是24小時我只要我接到我24小時全部都讓他下架你沒有這樣的破例的話10N5還2.0你還是繼續破我們會跟地方政府一起來合作好 謝謝好 謝謝李燕秀 趙偉那官員請回座休息五分鐘好 休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8811.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8829.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
接下來請嚴寬衡委員主席各位立席官員大家好主席有請衛福部林次長請林次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8834.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8850.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
市長好目前超過27500公噸的問題原料由像三大油品製造商福茂、泰山、福壽然後分別被重新包裝或製成不同的食用品 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8850.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8879.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
然後中標的業者包含超商 五星級飯店 咖啡廳 小吃店攤商 還有各級中小學可以說是全台灣的人都已經把這些致癌藥吃下肚我看了上星期未完委員會的質詢那委員問說這麼多的致癌藥我們能回收多少有多少是民眾已經吃下肚有多少是收不回來的結果部長一問三不知只會說都是廠商延遲通報的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8880.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8897.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
那這就是在迴避嘛所以也說了還沒出去的會阻斷那當然要阻斷嘛整場質詢下來我們沒有看到衛福部有具體的作為一直在卸責那有錯就直接跟民眾道歉好好的交代解決辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8899.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8911.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那就算財閥金額再高也無法彌補對人民所造成的傷害跟損失上週公布了許多涉及自然油的商品包括多項的超商 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8913.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8931.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
像是民眾很喜歡的林聰明雞肉飯糰護航豆漿飯糰食安牧場糖心蛋飯糰還有健身營控組喜歡在超商買的雞胸肉還有很多在超商購買的便當全部都中標現在民眾都戲稱說愛真實就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8934.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8961.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
癌真實就是我們吃那些即將過期的產品他會打折嘛六折打六折那壽命跟健康也跟著打六折所以民眾最關切的就是說很多人都以超商的食物為正餐可能每天都在購買那涉及的品項非常的多可能每個通路都有涉及就算已經啟動了這個退款機制但是民眾要去找發票看載具那因為現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8963.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8989.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
已經普遍在使用雲端發票載具政府應該研議大數據溯源機制已經有民眾自發性的做出一個對比的工具透過財政部電子發票平台然後下載消費發票來彙整CSV上傳去自動對比有問題的產品清單我建議說衛福部你可以找這個經濟跟財政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8990.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9016.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
這邊來合作去推動官方的我們的食安載具的一個查詢平台讓民眾能夠透過載具的號碼輸入載具的號碼精確的查詢特定期間內在什麼通路購買過什麼樣的品項跟自來油品相關的商品這樣子能夠協助民眾掌握自身的一個健康風險那更能夠作為日後向通路商要求退款的一個數位憑證 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9018.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9034.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
做一個溯源的機制讓事後求償跟退款能夠更加的有效率所以我要請問說衛福部願不願意會不會跟財政部電子發票平台來推動官方的食安載具查詢平台報告委員第一個事情我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9034.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9055.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
其實在上個禮拜那個財政部就已經跟我們聯絡就他們可以協助我們在發票上面來做一些處理這是第一個部分所以當然如果這邊用食安載具或者是相關的這一些超商載具能夠撈到相關的資訊這個部分我們當然對民眾是比較方便的第二個部分我們在目前所宣布的就是說當民眾要退貨或者是包含球場 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9055.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9070.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
尤其是退貨這個部分那我們要求相關業者要從寬能夠方便民眾來做處理不過也要再補充就是說像委員剛剛提到用載具這件事情我們在地方上很多的沒有在使用因為這個是比較年輕的人在用的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9071.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9098.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
有一些比較長者或者是一般的家庭主婦他可能沒有用這個東西甚至他購買的來源可能是一般的食品行不是用這樣子的不是用所謂載具的方式所以食藥署在我們得知這個資訊之後到目前每天我們都在食藥署的官方網站上面的專區已經公布了440項相關的產品那他所影響到他的這個效期讓民眾能夠去查詢他手上或者家裡面的相關的產品是不是這個時間的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9099.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9125.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
所以以科技的手段來落實食安溯源這個部分來這個兼顧民眾的一個健康管理所以作為未來退款的基礎所以你剛剛提到說部分的人沒有使用載具這當然因為載具是近年來大家年輕人都會使用的部分但是透過這樣子的一個平台能夠了解讓民眾知道他到底購買過多少的自由商品能夠自來物的部分自來油 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9126.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9143.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
那我想接下來跟你討論食品安全的管理的部分食藥署的調查曝露出多項行政程序上的漏洞像最新的調查報告中聯郵址宣稱4月份出貨時檢據的SGS合規報告但在實務上它是先出貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9144.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9162.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
後送驗所以這個代表業者在還沒有取得檢驗合格的結果之前就已經將他的產品流入市場販賣事後才來補齊這些檢驗的文件所以導致你們官方在事後的追查污染源的時候無法確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9163.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9189.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
業者最初送檢的究竟是哪一批哪一個批號的一個優品也無法解釋為何該批優品在6月份再次送檢後會出現這個本批的一個這樣子的一個超標那面對這種A批出貨然後B批送檢或事後調包的這些漏洞會不會容易修正這個行政命令 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9191.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9206.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
針對使用油等民生高風險大眾物資品項強制要求必須要先檢後發也就是說先取得合格的報告上傳追溯系統之後食品才可以讓它離開工廠流入市場這會不會做 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9210.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9227.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
委員這樣子先講第一個事情廠商他如果送A賣B這已經違法了違法了嘛這已經違法了所以這個部分現在檢調正在查這是第一個部分第二個部分就是說地方我們其實現在食安法41條這些食品廠它的查核第一線是地方政府要來進行查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9228.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9251.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
那先跟委員報告在相關這幾家油廠大型的油廠煉油廠的部分其實我們從111年到現在我們都有專案都給地方去查但是其實在查當然這個部分我們要去做一個修正因為在衛福部這邊要求至少半年要有要去查核一次那我們在現在看到的資料有些地方政府對於油廠他就是真的一年就半年驗一次那有些他可能就有評次比較多 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9252.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9275.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
所以像對於這一次遇到像中聯這樣子他的批次這麼的多他的產量這麼的大那他事實上地方政府我們會再寫得更細一點讓地方政府不會半年才查一次這個才是重點嘛所以我們針對食安的部分這食安就是國安啊因為我們認為說他應該要知道這家廠那麼大他應該要評次評價那如果這樣我們就要在民定更清楚一點不過在這一次整體的事件的管理是非常的誇張啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9277.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9287.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
這個政策朝夕令改慌張失措第一時間我們食藥署對外宣稱說什麼第二層的產品製造業者也是受影響的無辜受害者所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9288.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9305.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
中央不會公佈名單這不是在說什麼消費那基層民眾就直接炸鍋了嘛你會不會什麼時候變成食藥食品廠的代言人保護業者的生意會比保障國人健康食品安全更重要嗎還有這個知情權更重要嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9306.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9328.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
所以直到社會輿論炸鍋 民運沸騰之後衛福部才又急轉彎然後呢 迫於壓力公佈名單擠壓膏式的資訊公開看風向來修正這樣徹底摧毀了政府的公信力在食安把關上面這個公信力已經完全無效了所以我希望整個行政單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9330.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9349.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
以民眾健康為核心為核心目標去用心做事這個部分我想請次長就剛剛我們提到的部分來做一個全面的檢討然後呢神蹟部對於整個上傳追溯系統這個部分還有剛剛說的我們的那個平台的部分做一個全面的規劃可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9350.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9371.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
謝謝委員 我再跟委員補充就是說現在我們這444項受影響的產品都每天只要收到新的資訊就定期公佈不過目前到最新的資料我們預防性下架的相關29批產品裡面其中5批確定是有問題所以這邊不會讓中聯這些產品繼續使用它是完全就永久下架那另外一個部分就是剛剛委員提到的當然我們必須承認專家在專業上面的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9373.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9387.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
跟實際民眾的感受是有落差所以我們盡速的調整那也後來才會啟動預防性下架跟逐日公開相關資訊好 謝謝市長市長請回主席再請我們審計部我們的審計部我們的好 請審計長審計長 審計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9394.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9411.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
沈議長你好時間有限我想最後這個毒油事件第一點要請審計部盡快針對衛福部食藥署來調閱行政資料是否有涉及蓋牌或者是延遲跨部會的應變的行政疏失那第二點就是說針對現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9413.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9439.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
各項預算有關食安數位追溯的預算進行這樣子的一個大體檢釐清高達數元的系統為什麼會失靈是通報制度出現問題還是人為下達命令才出的問題所以這部分因為這部分我要再次強調了實際上因為這是國安問題食安就是國安問題所以像我們現在這種擠牙膏式的資訊公開還有看到修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9440.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9456.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
看到風向才修正的這樣子的官僚作風確實已經摧毀了政府在食安把關上的公信力民眾已經完全沒有信心了所以這部分再請省議長做一個全面的檢討我們這位趙委員的議事來做整個的專案調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9461.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9482.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
這個我們會來做另外我剛剛講的那些數位數元的問題這個院長在昨天也有講數位 科技數位已經非常要靠這個已經非常重要了因為這是前面因為這個一千年都很廣所以數位的問題我們也會來協助衛福部或者食藥署能夠幫他把它建構好 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9490.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9496.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
謝謝委員好的 謝謝沈記長 謝謝好 我們結束顏寬恒委員的質詢接下來請李昆城委員好 謝謝主席那我們請這個衛福部林次長還有教育部的張料次長請林次長 請張料次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9522.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9535.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
兩位市長好那因為這次這個中聯油脂本品比超標的事情大家就很關心這件事情呢那流入校園後續的這個處理方式那我是看這一個衛福部的統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9537.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9551.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
目前有20個縣市,623所學校,258所幼兒園,合計881所校園,疑似受到影響的產品,有實施預防性的下架和停職使用。這個數字還有在增加嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9556.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9566.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
委員我們現在根據食藥署 衛福部這邊公布的品項你講的是指後來公布的440項現在已經涉及到20縣市 861校 還有334所幼兒園目前已經都下架了 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9576.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9596.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
下架就是說我們有一個校園食材登錄平台所以這個登錄平台有發揮效用我們7月1號接到這個通知之後我們大概就用比較寬的方式就從那個食燈平台去撈譬如說有油 這是油的 油瓶就油我們就撈了大概1385校 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9598.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9623.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
然後有登錄的部分我們就7月2號馬上通知各縣市政府開始來撈只要跟中聯、福壽、福茂、泰山有關係的到7月14號為止就是到昨天為止是確定了大概有260校新北有76校台北有64校基隆有11校台中有69校泰南有13校高雄14校所以有即刻停用了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9624.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9651.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
好那有去做實地封存的這個動作嗎你剛才問的這個800多所這個是屬於用那個油有問題有時候因為他有再製那個加工食品然後因為衛福部公布之後我們又再去撈所以撈出來是這個800多所這疑似的這部分我們都請他先下架對那你們有去實地請這個各縣市政府交易局去做實地的封存嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9652.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9659.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
有有有這都有做嗎也是陪同衛生局一起都有那退回跟銷毀的動作勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9661.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9682.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
我們都配合,因為那個執行機關在地方政府,我們通知他們之後,他們就是必須要去做這個動作對啊,因為中央也要去督導一下說到底地方政府有沒有按照停用看起來是沒問題嘛,那接下來封存跟退回、銷毀,後續的動作也要一起做啊對,在地方他們的那個查驗的日期,還有這個查驗的品項、銷毀,他們都會有一個公佈的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9686.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9710.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那這個因為我剛剛其他委員有問到就是審計部的資料啦那是在112年啦這個幼兒園使用校園設的登錄平台公立幼兒園當然比較高那時候的這個比率這個有八成七啦但是呢非公立的包含這個非營利啊準公啊私立啊那時候的資料偏低 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9712.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9736.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
8.26但是我看你們最新的資料有給我的是現在私立幼兒園有2939元比例已經提高到74%了對謝謝委員的關心其實是這樣就是說您剛才講的那個80幾%也是12年資料其實現在一般公立學校學校的部分已經到99%了99%對在實材登錄的那個比例上涵蓋率那公立幼兒園其實也到了90幾%了那現在就是非 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9738.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9758.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
就是說我們講的非營利、準攻、失利就是我們非營利幼兒園還有互助式教保服務員或準攻這個政府有補助的部分其實都到非營利的部分到99%那互助式教保服務也到88%、89%那準攻又也到了100%幾乎百分之百 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9759.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9779.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
反正就是公立的或是政府有補助的都已經在99%現在就私立的部分私立幼兒園因為它規模真的很小有的二三十個三四十個當時我們在法規上沒有強制性但是我們有協同就是說我們也是會去做抽查因為那個是食安的問題目前已經大概就是65%左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9783.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9798.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
65%那這有辦法112年確實那時候審計部做的報告那時候才9%而已所以我們經過這三年努力人力上的不足那還是說設備上的不足那要怎麼樣是給予協助登錄的品項因為有的那個主要食材是很複雜他很多批號那他們那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9800.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9821.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
比較小的幼兒園其實他們行政能力普遍不足所以我們現在也在研擬說如果要再提高這個比例的話可能比如說研擬一些AI的登錄的方式讓他們能夠再用掃描的方式或者說在登錄上比較方便我覺得這還是可以用科技的方式來處理人力當然會比較夠我們希望再把它提高到跟我們一般就是99%以上的表現 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9823.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9849.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
所以你們有沒有大概一個目標值就是說希望多久的時間然後希望實體幼兒園經由你們的協助也能夠提高到一定的標準我們會跟地方政府一起來努力啦我們這次的清查雖然說他沒有在實燈這個平台裡面但是因為我們都是做那個實體清查電話也好或者現場去看他的那個登錄的資料裡面是不是有買這樣的品項有的話就是下架這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9852.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9864.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
讓家長還是能夠透過這個食材登錄的平台還是能夠知道說他們的孩子在學校吃的怎麼樣尤其是幼兒園收費又稍微高一點點那我想家長的權利應該也要能夠維持住啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9870.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9898.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
現在我們就是說這個管理的一個登錄平台我們會想辦法再跟地方政府研商用比較節省的這種比較省力的方式來開發就是我不曉得就是反正透過AI或是說透過這種科技表格化的方式盡量不用這樣逐一你要去登它這樣他們有時候也會漏掉有時候錯誤或者說沒有那個人力會漏掉我們只要加入他沒有的話我們會列入考核就是說將來以前是有補助說我們列入考核那這是私立遊園因為沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9899.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9912.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
拿我們補助所以我們基本上就是用協助的方式比例是有提高啦這三年來比例是有提高但是還可以再增加啦是 我們這部分再繼續努力好 謝謝謝謝張教授次長那我接下來我再請教這一個林次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9915.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9942.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
市委員市長我為一個跟食安比較沒有相關的但是跟病人權益有相關的就是說這個上個禮拜五有所謂的一個颱風準備假然後呢讓很多的這個病人的權益呢都受到了損失那甚至連這個臺北龍總的院長陳院長他就說最怕放假的是醫療單位因為颱風假對於醫療院所造成極大的一個困難那他也講到說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9944.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9968.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
放了這個颱風架對於台灣的大型醫療院所面臨的醫療韌性和病患安全都會受到影響因為只要政府一通電話放假成本跟病患的安撫都是由醫院還有醫護人員自行吸收那我先請問一下就是說當然颱風你不可測當然有一個科學的方式去 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9969.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9987.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
評估說那到底要不要放颱風架那像禮拜五這一種就是看起來不是颱風架是所謂的颱風準備架那的確也對病人的權益受到影響那這方面的話衛福部有沒有一些標準或是說一些做法讓病人的權益不要去受到影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9988.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10003.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
其實報告委員衛福部這邊當然我們必須要兼顧醫療人員因為他出勤的安全還有病人到醫院也有一些安全的考量所以其實我相信大家都是一樣的立場是假設有到了我們在氣象署所預報的那樣子的風雨或者是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10004.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10021.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
這個醫院或者是病人所處的地方是高度風險的區域像我們有一些預防性撤離的部分那個部分我想如果因為這個預警的原因那停止掉相關的醫療服務我相信不論是醫療院所醫療院所的工作人員或民眾大家都會接受啦你封大到不行沒有人 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10022.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10048.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
這個時候你跟民眾說我取消你的手術民眾當然不同時他也會他也有困難去嘛可是如果說沒有到颱風架的標準那在大家其實原來的在醫療這邊尤其很多都是一個非常必要的程序的時候那必須承認說尤其像這種大型醫院一旦停止這個服務他後續整個影響的會是蠻多的就不論對民眾或者是相關醫療人員他要去重新調整排程那這個部分影響是很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10049.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10074.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
那我意思是說像這種大型醫院那你要做一個手術也不是說我今天前幾天訂了然後就今天要做他可能已經排了很長的時間那你今天不做下次再排也不知道是哪個時候要重新排對啊要重新排那我意思是說遇到這一種不論是颱風準備假還是真的颱風假那對於這一次大型醫療院所的病人權益那要怎麼去做照顧或是說去協助這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10075.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10104.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
這個衛福部有沒有一個SOP出來其實 鮑遠這個因為颱風的相關的架颱風架或者是因為颱風必須要停止相關的停止上班上課這個都這個不是在衛福部這邊主管啦對 那我是說醫院啊醫院的角色或醫療院所這邊其實就是在兼顧這個所有不論是來上班的出勤的醫療人員的安全跟病人權益的部分我們盡量依照不同的情況來做兼顧就是急診跟住院應該不會受到影響啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10106.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10128.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
然後這個洗腎應該也不會受到影響啦不一定 當然就看醫院那當然洗腎這種它可能持續都有在運作假設風暴雨急那醫療人員沒有辦法上班他依照這個勞基法颱風天他沒有辦法出缺勤沒有辦法出勤或者是病人沒有辦法出沒有辦法去這個部分當然就真的是但是一般的不是重大的手術一些常規手術有可能就取消了 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10129.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10155.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
因為大家看醫院這邊如果有的醫院他有配合颱風架那就取消那如果有的醫院他沒有去配合這個部分不過這個會牽涉到因為如果沒有宣布颱風架那醫院這邊的運作大概比較能夠依照他的狀況來評估那因為宣布颱風架通常醫院就很多醫院他大概就會取消蠻多原來既定的醫療服務只留下必要的常規我覺得這個有關醫療韌性這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10157.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10173.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
就是說你可能會遇到颱風架或是說遇到什麼樣的會受到影響那我們所關心就是說病人的權益不要去受到影響那這部分我不曉得說這個衛福部要不要跟我們大型醫療院所那有一個比如說有一個SOP或是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10173.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10201.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
盡量不要這個因為這個價或是什麼樣然後就讓病人全身受到影響然後你本來已經排好了又要延到很後面去這樣子我想醫院都會盡量再幫病人重新安排依照他的病情來重新安排不過我想也要跟委員說明這裡還有另外一個事情我們要衡量是這個突然之間調整的醫療或者是相關的行政流程行政量對於醫院就是這樣大型又非常繁忙的醫療院所有醫療人員也是一個非常非常大的負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10202.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10214.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
對啊 所以說但是這些所謂的醫療的成本都是由大型醫院自己吸收的嘛是好 OK 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝我們結束李昆城委員的質詢接下來請林思銘委員好 謝謝昭緯我們先請教育部廖次長請張廖次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10230.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10232.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
我看你今天的報告 教育部在7月8號公布20個縣市有881所學校受影響包含了623所的學校及258所的幼兒園 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10253.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10276.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
然後在7月10號又公布增加228所學校曾經使用相關的產品我想請問市長就是說到今天7月15號又過了5天這個數字是否還有變更報告委員我們就是跟著因為我們是下游我們是一般的消費者我們是跟著衛福部公布的品項進去清查 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10277.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10293.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
那委員剛才提到的那個861項的我們那個報告是第二層次就是說它不是直接用油品它是用那個油品製的品項裡面我們有用到的我們在做440項裡面在做清採那第一部分是直接用那個油品譬如說那三家 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10294.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10301.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
這個我知道 現在問題就是說學校實際有去採購這些油品 學校有去採買的你統計出來的就是到7月10號就是881所 又增加了228所但是1000多所學校有買到相關的產品嗎不是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10314.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10327.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
第二梯次那個不是直接油品是衛福部後來又公布說有440項的品項就是流通的一些加工食品我們有採用到的我們直接用油品的是260項 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10329.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10344.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
那所以我剛才問你到現在又過了五天那數字是否還有更新就是在7月14號為止就是直接使用這個油品有七個縣市有260校包括新北市76校台北市64校 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10346.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10375.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
桃園十三校 基隆十一校 台中市六十九校 高雄十四校 台南十三校所以這些數字都是學校自行回報給教育部還是說我們派人去調查的對 我們從那個時燈平台裡面 撈出用那個食用油然後呢 第一 七月一號我們一接到之後馬上清查出 先用擴大登錄所以說有可能儀式全部都清查有油品類的 一共有一千三百 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10376.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10393.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
85校那後來7月2號第二天馬上通知各縣市各學校他們開始去比對那個批號因為批號那個比較複雜所以是由學校主動通報給地方政府對我們主動通報給學校地方政府再通報給教育部然後一一清查出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10394.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10398.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
就是到昨天為止是7個縣市260校你現在講的學校是指各級學校各級學校從幼兒園一直到我們大學對260校處 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10409.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10427.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那我想請教一下 校園部現在是否已經有去了解說是否這些相關的學校這些過去有去採買到這些 使用到這些問題油的這些校園的食品現在是否全部都已經下架做更換 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10427.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10441.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
所以我們都下架然後也配合地方政府衛生局衛生單位進行這個查封封驗所以你確認現在都完全沒有問題了對只要確定了我們剛才講過清查清查的範圍比較大然後已經確定的就是另外如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10443.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10469.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
學生的家長 因為現在很多都吃下肚了嘛那對於這次的毒油事件想對廠商提出這個迷思告訴的話教育部會協助嗎我想那個委員的關心就是行政院消保處也已經指示我們國內兩大消保團體包括消基會 消保協會等來協助一般的民眾那學校也 消保協會也配合學校的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10470.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10487.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
將來在 教育部也會協助吧對 法律責任擬定之後我們教育部會協助受影響的各縣市的學校依法求償好 謝謝 市長您先請回現在我們請惠福部林靜儀林次長還有石耀蔡副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10490.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10493.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
市長早市長我想這次中聯郵資這個事件從4月4號它生產的第4個批號315-115-0404的大豆沙拉油開始驗出這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10505.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10530.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
本坪坪每公斤8.1維克超標了4倍那這批1300公噸問題的油品在市場流通了兩個多月以後才由業者來通報主管機關期間已經流向很多校遊業者甚至進入校園以及一般的消費市場那麼食藥署 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10531.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10552.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
現在對中聯 重罰一億六千二十萬元 他們也已經繳了 昨天院長講他們也已經繳了那檢調也已經介入偵辦我想這個當然是必要的啦 一定要這麼做但是處罰業者之後 國人的健康怎麼辦難道就這麼算了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10556.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10572.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
我想市民業者的自主檢驗失靈異常的通報延誤上下游的資訊無法及時串聯主管機關最重要主管機關沒有主動發現這個問題蠻嚴重的這邊的稽查是地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10578.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10606.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
是是地方政府那你們也不用主動去了解嗎我們每一年都有給地方政府有品相關的專案希望地方政府去做查核市長其實我想跟你說的因為剛才你一直講說地方政府我想每次食安事件發生中央政府都可以左邊推給地方政府右邊就推給我們這些食品業者最後才說就誠如你剛才講的我們這都是最後才知道的 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10606.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10635.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
我們都是被隱瞞的我想這樣的說法就是以過去民進黨在野的時候對我們執政黨的批評真的是非常的雙飄我想一批在市場流通了兩個多月的問題郵品這麼久才讓我們的人民知道所以人民不知道已經吃了多少這些問題郵品到肚子裡面去了身為主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10636.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10660.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
當然我們現在看到從昨天的行政院的左院長到今天你的詢答喔我想你們有在檢討啦 有在檢討喔但是我個人是一直覺得難道不用給人民一個道歉嗎你們不用向全國人民來致歉說這件事情我們做得不夠好昨天我們跟院長一樣 昨天已經說我們會深切檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10661.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10689.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
所以做檢討要不要致歉啦謝謝檢討當然造成大家現在在整個民間的這個狀況我相信我們中央地方我們全部都要來檢討都會檢討啦也要致歉嘛因為其實市長我想這個致歉沒有那麼難啦發生這麼嚴重的一個食安事件你們都在我看到的就是好像一直在推責任推給地方推給業者大家都有責任啊對大家都有責任嘛所以你們不能讓人家感覺我們事不關己 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10691.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10707.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
這個都是地方政府沒有通報沒有去落實稽查我想這真的很令人遺憾我想全國人民都在看整個政府執政的態度所以我再請教這個問題我就講到這裡我再請教副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10708.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10722.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
目前因為受到毒油影響的末端的消費商品是否都是由下游食品業者或者這些餐飲業者這些廠商自行回報給市要署 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10723.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10751.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
跟委員報告因為整個稽查是地方政府在執行那一般的稽查的話如果要回收下架是確實依食安法是要跟地方政府衛生局去做回報那這個事件比較特殊所以食藥署是有強力的介入那我在零四的主持的會議有要求這個最關鍵的泰山福壽福茂這三個業者因為他是直接往 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10753.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10773.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
所以我們要求這三家業者必須及時的回報那回報的資訊必須給食藥署跟地方衛生局所以目前的話食藥署跟地方衛生局是同步掌握這樣的資訊所以這個回報的動作食藥署已經跟妳講的就是已經有下令所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10774.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10800.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
不管是上游的廠商或者這些下游的就末端的這些食品業者或餐飲店跟地方政府你們要起立就是一起去要求他們通報嘛因為依照標準的話已經都有下令這樣做了吧對 因為依照標準就是地方政府他要去地方稽查確認那因為我們認為這件事情就像剛剛蔡副說的這件事情因為影響很大所以這些事情我想因為現在很多油還沒有收回嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10800.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10820.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
所以現在持續都有在要求他們就是要回報第一時間是全部下架報告委員全部下架那因為我們後來因為這29批裡面中聯油脂有5批有問題所以我們現在是這29批全部都預防性下架那有問題那5批是絕對不可能再上來了這是一個事情他全部下架回收 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10821.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10845.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那有一些回收的部分先跟委員說明它的狀況是這樣有些它當然已經製成食品已經使用這個部分在它在回收上面當然是有一定的困難那能夠現在還是食品的現在還是一個成品還在的當然我們就要求業者全部都回收那也已經開始啟動回收的機制那有一些它可能是它現在在油槽裡頭它現在整個就扣在那一邊現在是扣在油槽裡頭OK 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10847.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10867.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
我想這個其實我因為很多其實我們剛才一直提到就是說這些末端的消費不管7-11或者是這些這個餐飲業者他們使用到其實有很多我們看到說因為依照你們現在回收的一個的你說下架嘛但是依照你們回收的數字啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10868.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10897.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
那個數字的並沒有跟已經那個中聯石油產生的那個P號這5P的數量是不一致的所以就是現在所有還在市面上的全部都下架那下架之後當然逐步的回收但是逐步回收裡面有一些就像剛剛說他可能還扣在某些油槽裡頭根本就不能動那邊我們之後當然如果他那一批有問題當然還是其實我是比較關心末端的啦所以你末端已經全部要求他下架不可能再會有這些商品還在架上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10897.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10924 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
我們在7月1號就要求廠商相關產品要下架後來預防性之後預防性下架就全部預防性下架好 次郎我想剛才大家一直關心這個食品源的問題昨天院長也來做院會做專案報告院長表示對於這次毒油要有所作為未來將整合業者自主檢驗第三方驗證 政府抽驗 異常通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10925.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10946.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
以及整合還有集產品的流向來強化食品源的勾結與預警功能我想卓恩院長也做這樣的一個宣示所以市長對於食品源的建置能不能讓食品源不只是資料庫而同時要具有預警的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10948.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10970.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
剛剛本席提到要讓消費者能夠事後檢測他所購買的商品是否有食安的問題說不是只有現在你建構的食品園就是讓消費者預警說這個食品可能有問題而是說如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10971.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10998.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
他買到的這批食品透過剛才賴斯堡委員質詢的一個財政部開發的雲端的一個平台這個雲端發票的一個平台他就可以去透過發票去檢測說他有沒有買到這樣子的一個這個有問題的一些食品所以你的未來的雲端雲的建置除了預防的功能以外能不能強化它的一個勾擊的一個功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10998.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11027.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
是 我們跟財政部這邊在相關的這個發票的勾結我們在未來會再精進它更多的程序那不過這一次也再跟委員補充就是說因為有一些產品或民眾買的它不見得每個它都有手上有發票所以我們從7月我們就是從這個事件發生之後那我們到現在我們已經在食藥署的這個官方網站的有一個專區我們公布了440項受影響的相關的產品那民眾可以上去比對它是不是有使用到這些產品 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11029.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11037.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
那衛福部可以給國人食品完成自動預警以及流向國際的期程嗎?大概要多久? |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11039.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11060.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
這個自動預警包含著我們這些關鍵或者是重要的這些食品那其實也這樣先說就是說在裡面事實上民眾已經是食用最末端我們希望是把這個自動預警回到整個產業鏈的最前端這幾個大廠之間事實上因為像這一次其中有一家廠商他驗到有問題他沒有通報所以我們要把這個通報的機制把它做起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11060.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11088.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
那第二個通報機制起來之後相關的產業這邊上面這兩層就應該要能夠得到這個資訊而不會讓業者自己在內部跑了兩個月之後才跑出來你這個食品五環的機制你都要透過雲端系統把它整個串起來嘛所以這些產業大的業者沒有環好像都串不起來啊所以我想未來的雲端的建構希望你們真的要繼續加強好不好謝謝我們結束林思敏委員的質詢接下來請羅明才委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11098.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11099.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
本席向來對於教育的問題對於兒童的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11125.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11138.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
對於老人照顧的問題我非常非常重視那這次除了這個毒油的事件令人非常的痛心我首先請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11141.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11166.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
這個衛福部好了因為你們是在做檢查的單位這一次源頭的部分到底有哪幾間負責最主要是中年遊子那你們衛福部裡面有沒有人認識他們的老闆或者是總經理或者是高階的主管我不清楚我也不認識你們盤點一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11169.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11182.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
你們都不認識嗎?我...我不認識但是我不會出問你有沒有跟他們一起吃過飯?我不知道都沒有?這我不清楚外界說你們一直在包庇啊我們沒有必要包庇我們罰了他一億多未來可能還會罰更多所以一億多夠嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11184.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11199.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
國人的健康就一億多被買單了嗎沒有 保養員所以現在中聯油脂我們對於它整個行為它到現在我們現在是4到6月份全部預防性下架再來跟地方政府這邊我們也不讓它現在並不讓它做繼續的生產因為它品管還沒有恢復我問一下 沈氣長 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11202.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11229.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
省長 為了國人的健康我們這一二十年來建立了防範的體制很多的檢測單位以及很多的教育宣導大概花了多少錢這個我們沒有去統計但是每年大概都有光十萬五萬大概都有四五十億花了四五十億十年叫做四五百億 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11231.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11238.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
官員說罰他一億六千萬就沒事了嗎我們的健康就被他犧牲掉這樣有道理嗎沈議長現在他說的這些問題的油品啊導致國人啊平均每個人吃下了大概一瓶的有毒的油脂 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11260.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11275.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
沈議長 這一屋有毒嗎照目前公布的資料是會致癌的會致癌我們每年為了國人的健康我們的健保支出花了多少我們宣導花了多少結果現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11282.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11300.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
國人致癌的比率 一天一天的攀升我們為了預防 花了幾十億 幾百億沈議長 就剛剛他說 那個人說就罰他一億六千萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11303.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11320.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
他也有說後續還會更重大的處啊現在不是光是錢的問題啊你就是一億六再乘以十倍十六億再乘以百倍對國人的健康有所彌補嗎我們要亡羊補牢是那我想請教你這個油啊一瓶他說每一個人平均吃了大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11332.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11354.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
一點多公升 大概就是一瓶礦泉水的油脂那麼多如果這一瓶油 有問題的油 讓你喝 你要不要喝因為知道有問題了 當然不喝你不喝 可是這些問題油到底有沒有銷毀 找到源頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11356.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11385.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
衛福部在努力 行政部門都在努力那衛福部做了什麼事那要請教衛福部而已你看 我們到現在都不知道衛福部做了什麼事還有一個問題 這些有已經吃下去了不會講話的小朋友又偶爾 或者是失智的老人或者是八九 九十歲的老人他都一直每天在吃 吃下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11387.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11405.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
這些人可不可以申請國賠委員先補充一個事情這個部分本便皮是在整個製造過程中那他可能因為高溫他的品管不好產生所以事實上目前我們對於中聯這一家業者認為他的品管出問題我們要做後續他品管上面的要求這是第一個事情跟委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11406.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11434.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
第二個事情這個本田皮這個物質不是添加物它是在我們一般日常飲食油炸製成烹煮甚至烘烤的過程都會產生那甚至包含抽煙等等行為都有可能會有都會暴露在這個物質裡面所以再跟委員補充就是說這個物質事實上就是我們對於中聯或相關的油品這一次我們訂的這個我們所訂的這個標準主要的目的是去看它在它的產製成的過程中它沒有符合產製成的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11436.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11441.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
這個是不是自來油委員這個部分我們油本身不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11443.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11468.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
但是我們的食品有本身不是不是 委員這不就吃了會致癌嗎這一個本便品它當然來 你旁邊那個說吃了不會致癌來 我請吃了不會致癌是不是那你就跟國人講啊你就拿一瓶沙拉油或者是有問題的油你當場當著全國人民的面前你喝下去啊委員 重點光是這樣喝油對心血管就很不好我還是要提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11469.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11491.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
不論是哪一家你怎麼樣的對得起這些小朋友或者是沒有辦法表達的老齡人我再釐清一次這一次的郵品這個當然它超過我們所設定的標準所以在中聯的這一批郵品包含不論是我們現在驗出有超標或沒有驗出超標的還沒有驗到超標的這29批4月到6月我們全部現在都是預防性下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11492.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11516.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
所以你現在預防性下架的意思是說這些有問題的油是可以吃還是不可以吃啊有問題的這些我們因為它超過我們的標準所以我們把它下架了但是容我稍微說明一下即使今天是一個符合標準的油拿去油炸油炸出來的這個它的本田皮的量就非常非常的高所以站在食品我們講的健康的立場上來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11518.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11532.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
我們在這邊管理的是它前端製程必須符合標準但是在日常生活各位 尤其台灣我們如果是大火烘烤或者是油炸的飲食裡面本便皮的量事實上都一直存在在食品裡面好 那教育部來 委員好是 次長對於國小兒童還有這些教育相關的機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11545.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11562.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
他沒地方選擇啊他就是在學校營養午餐也好或者準備的膳食也好他就選擇就叫吃啊那這個問題已經有很多的學校都面臨這樣的問題啊那接下來怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11562.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11586.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
是跟委員報告說其實我們在7月1號接到食藥署通告之後我們就開始透過那個食安登錄平台學校現在大概99%都在這個食材登錄平台裡面去撈出1385項然後第二天7月2號馬上就通知地方縣市政府做清查就是用到當時查出來那15項的那個品牌的油那開始撈撈到現在已經大概50項有50項公布的那個油已經有260個學校的 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11593.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11620.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
七個縣市那這些人吃了多久我們現在這個吃多久是我們是依照食藥署公布的我們來撈撈到的是有使用的部分有的那個根據食藥署公布的那個品項它是四月初製造的五種品項我們是用那個資料來撈的這樣算一算大概吃多久吃多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11623.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11635.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
兩個月左右兩個月啊那如果一個小朋友譬如說一年級二年級的學生他就這樣一直吃一直吃那吃了兩個月對身體會不會造成什麼樣的損害 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11636.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11658.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
會不會照什麼我們會跟衛福部這邊一起來追蹤啦就是說他的那個不要追蹤啊衛福部在對你旁邊啊對我們以後相關的那個林次長還是這個因為小朋友這個問題啊小朋友如果一二年級啊他已經吃了兩個月兩個月可能吃了一瓶那麼大的一個小朋友如果兩個月吃這麼多油我想不是好事 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11659.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11685.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
可是他已經吃了啊不可能小朋友兩個月真的沒有道理吃這麼多油那大概吃多少沒有一瓶有沒有吃到半瓶委員重點是他的烹煮過程相關的食品這裡面有多樣的原因那我們現在在食藥署這邊我們為什麼這一批油我們會讓他要下架要罰第一個是因為他延遲通報第二個是他檢驗上面他不合格他還讓他上架 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11686.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11692.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
那我問你啊 這個事情已經發生好幾天了啦那 比如說今天 今天是幾月幾號七月十五 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11695.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11720.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
15號 今天7月15號還有沒有學童繼續在吃這一批有毒的牛排6月30我們收到業者通知之後7月2號我們就要求所有業者在第一批就是他中聯的4月份那一批就全部要下架那後續因為下游就是第二層的業者這邊有通報到其他檢驗有問題所以我們現在中聯從4月份到6月份29批有現在包含全部都預防性下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11722.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11724.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
現在你都下架了但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11725.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11754.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
生活還是要過油還是要吃所以在這段時間JP油是國內公油的大宗JP油沒有了以後那你要叫這些食品業者加什麼油所以我們現在我們在這段時間當然也先請地方政府都確認過另外三家大的油廠另外幾家大的煉油廠他們的產品目前是OK那當然我們也正在啟動就是說因為現在這29批裡面有5批確定超標所以那個是不可能再上來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11754.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11774.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
那另外24批預防性下架的假設有可信的檢體那我們後續會做一些檢查為了國人的健康啊你們喔一定要酸井螺絲要嚴正的面對這件事情不要跟全民為敵做得到嗎大家都一起在吃這些油啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11775.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11800.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
那你要站在人民的立場而不是站在這些業者的立場沒有必要站在業者的立場真的嗎沒有必要啊為什麼要站在業者的立場那你們回去包括在場的這些官員你們回去查查看有沒有任何的官員跟中聯有吃過一頓飯或有認識有包庇委員你這講的是包含地方政府嗎因為地方政府可能跟他們比較近你就公佈啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11803.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11819.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
你先查中央政府有沒有啊對啊 中央這邊我們其實到我們連他們董事長姓什麼我都不知道對啊 你們下面的人那麼多報告委員 相關我還是在提醒10號署裡面有多少員工委員我再提醒一下10號署有多少員工幾千啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11822.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11834.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
一千五百你敢保證一千五百個你的嘴巴裡面講出來說你跟他們都不熟一千五百個跟他們都不熟啊我知道你要問的是利益關係那如果其實還是要強調我還是要強調依照食安法定期的稽查是一般政府可是你要叫我們相信一千五百個人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11842.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11856.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
如果這樣我會建議是包含地方政府全部都要了解你查啊你查啊我當然支持查啊把事情釐清清楚啊對不對罪口或有所謂把他抓出來啊開玩笑拿全民的這個安全來做賭注啊沒有任何一點空間啊現在檢調已經在查了最後那個主席長 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11867.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11887.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
這個油不能吃那個油不能吃那其他可以吃的油會不會漲價對整個消費者的影響是在哪裡這要看他供應的情形如果有缺貨就會漲價這樣子或者是說他缺貨買不到那就會有一些你注意一下看看有沒有業者趁機那個烘台物價謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11892.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11896.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
謝謝我們結束羅明才委員的質詢接下來請王世堅委員謝謝主席我請衛福部次長請林次長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11921.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11948.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
你想到是在這個地方相遇喔這個古語有言啊損者三有有貧弊現在我們是碰到本貧弊這個古語啊有時候都還蠻應驗的這個現在亡羊補牢我希望衛福部態度要做出來也就是說面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11950.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11973.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
這次毒瘤事件我們整個亡羊補牢的作業我們要誠實勇敢沉著那就是說我們要開誠布公那麼不虛假而且政府也應該主動揭露不逃避還有要指揮善後 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11975.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
11993.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
不慌張 不慌張我怎麼樣看出說你們有點慌張呢比方說你們一直到昨天才要求業者要自主揭露結果在自主揭露裡面 欸比較好的獨油商你們像泰山他不錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
11995.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12020.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
你要求他自主揭露他馬上公佈下游包括產品清單結果福壽啦 福茂啦這些他通通沒有公佈產品清單所以我們民眾 消費者根本全然不知我覺得他們還在逃避當中啦他們還在逃避當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12021.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12047.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
因為這個事情我們7月10號開會的時候有當面要求那現在在他們網站上我們剛剛同仁在點是點得進去的對啊 你們到今天上午才上架才把這個資料補全啊 不是嗎沒有 這是業者要補但我們自己是每一天都在公佈所以我們現在在食藥署的官方網站上有440項產品已經公佈對 你總頓數其實到今天才更正到正確嘛你在 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12048.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12069.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
昨天之前你的總噸數還維持在1300多噸那我現在是要另外問你的就是說進口的巴西黃豆這一次說是因為它含水量高所以造成後續製造上產生這些毒素 粉瓶病那麼但是它那些數量進來總共有59.9萬公噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12074.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12087.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
所以次長回去你查一下這59.9萬公噸到底這些廠商用了多少因為他們可能很可能只用一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12089.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12113.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
可能剩下的那他到底這些怎麼處置我們有沒有去追蹤好不好那因為後續的問題我覺得要查我就不想問你了你請回你把我帶回去這句話59.9萬公噸的這些黃豆到底下落是如何已經用了多少還有多少還沒用那再來的問題你請問我請問個審計處長謝謝委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12121.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12121.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
請沈記長沈記長很多事我認為可能要由你下去查行政調查後大概才查得出來謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12134.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12154.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
我要查的第一件事情包括我剛剛請衛福部林市長他們回去查的其實也麻煩您幫我了解一下好不好到底這些有問題的黃豆還有多少現在下落如何第二點就是說很奇怪的在我們這個颱風假前 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12157.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12183.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
那麼我們7月8號為止所有官方網站上總共這個超標油品有1300公噸怎麼才過了一個禮拜颱風假一放完以後到今天啊暴增到5756公噸怎麼突然間一下子多了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12185.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12190.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
4100公噸這一點你回去把他們釐清到底是怎麼樣是 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12193.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12222.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
這四大廠商心虛不敢去報還是說他們在這個部分當中還打算有所隱瞞第二點就是說這個回收到現在為止你看中聯的大豆沙有1300公噸到7月13日為止到前天為止它只回收410公噸回收得太少太慢 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12223.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12246.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
那麼7月7號通報的泰山的部分泰山的部分他通報了1309公噸結果只回收505公噸這個南橋的部分這個都是5月10號左右製造的喔5月份製造的報了他1305.9公噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12250.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12269.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
它還算是這裡面最誠實的喔它也才回收319公噸好了 這個最近7月12號那麼又公布了福壽兩批也是有毒的大豆沙拉油分別是報了533.85公噸跟1307公噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12275.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12294.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
結果他分別回收都只有533公噸的回收243還算OK一半1300公噸的只回收162公噸整個統計下來也就是說總共這些毒油量5756公噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12298.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12312.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
總回收多少 總回收1641公噸回收不到三成 天啊 有七成耶跑哪裡去 簡單講 就跑到我們每個消費者 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12314.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12332.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
肚子裡的啦因為其實中聯這一批它最早出問題就是它這個其中有一個郵巢那它那個是四月份最早通報就是說六月三十收到通報的所以那個各位委員現在看到一千三是那一桶就是它那個整個郵巢的那後面這四千 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12333.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12362.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
那後面這邊是我們因為發現後來陸續有得到通報那所以我們是把中聯從4月份到6月份29批的油全部預防性的下架所以會出現這個比較高的數字這是第二個部分跟委員補充第三就是說這邊的回收跟下架先講一個資訊目前我們已經跟我們持續以來就要求福茂福壽跟泰山通知他們的下油廠商跟他們自己所以把所有這29批全部預防性下架是全部下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12362.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12386.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
那這裡面有一些回收是陸續因為有比方說它已經是就是中聯那一個已經超標的那個要回收那有些它還在油草裡頭就是說它在可能在下油廠商製造食品的油草裡頭那那一批現在就直接是所以這4000公噸你說不一定是全部進到我們大家肚子是其中有一些是預防性然後有再來就是說那既然你上來好 那個次長既然你上來你很勇敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12389.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12410.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
這個我希望外務部回去研究一下甚至可以找法務部一起研究要制定專法啦 什麼專法呢就是說如果未來發生重大食品危害毒害事件的話主管機關可以向這些違法黑心業者查扣他們的財產 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12412.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12438.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
查扣他們的財產 假扣他們的財產那麼這一些查扣來的財產未來用來給給受害者包括受害的下游廠商才求償有門可不可以你現在就可以做的一部分就是說你可以要求健保局啊很多我們受害的民眾現在腸胃不舒服啊或者發生了其他更嚴重的事情那 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12439.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12465.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
健保署他們所支出的這個醫藥整治費其實這一些都可以向這個已經可以正式向這些危害的廠商來跟他們求償因為現在我們法律上允許的是只有消保官那針對有民眾或者有下屬廠商真的提出簡據單據證明這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12469.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12471.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
才有去部分的集體訴訟我覺得這還不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12475.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12501.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
應該把衛福部的權限再擴大因為這一個部分石油 食用品的部分出了問題全民會一致的要求的第一個單位就是直指衛福部啊所以衛福部本來就應該要有更強烈的方式可以來遏止這種清新當然啦 你們現在要求說以後不能只有自主檢查 這是對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12503.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12518.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
那這只是一部分 我覺得要從根源把他們這些傢伙這些惡質廠商可以把他們的惡劣行徑由他們來付出慘重的代價這樣他們以後才不敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12518.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12541.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
好不好你回去研究一下這個制定專法啦好不好因為只有你們你們是帶頭的第一個單位所以你們有權利來制定這一部分的專法好不好回去好好研究我們會來跟相關的單位做研議那現在在因為檢調也已經介入了先跟委員報告好 那個沈縣長我剛剛提的那幾點你再回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12542.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12558.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
好不好我就是這些我們大家共同有的疑點我們必須查清楚對社會交代可以肆意好不好好謝謝謝謝我們結束王世堅委員的質詢接下來請許中信委員主席各位同仁我們有請林靜儀次長請林次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12576.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12604.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
市長好委員好昨天行政院長的專案報告非常的累人所以我們教育部正部長以及我們衛福部時部長今天都請假沒有他時部長在樓下八樓的委員會那麼我們現場我從一開始做到結束我只喝一杯咖啡提神真的很累人我在學習所以本席 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12606.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12631.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
對這個東西外行但是我要來根據我們立法委員最重要的我們五環 未環的五環一年的預算一四年四七點多一點點億那麼一五年也是四七點五億多我們一年這麼多錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12633.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12662.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
效用何在今天是我要來跟各位報告如何來尊潔如何來徵效我們用這個所謂的污染油的事件來做例子這種高風險的產品為例請問次長我們那些回收的所謂毒油做什麼用我們現在都要求他們回來就是回收回收之後他們後續至於他們要做什麼樣的處理他當然不能再做食品 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12663.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12691.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
當然我們要監督不能再流到我們的食品的體系以英國人的立場英國人認為這是一個地球的資源他不可能把它銷毀的他會把它做燃料加以充分的應用這就是一個有效能的政府應該做到的程度而我們很顯然政府在這裡沒有做到我們五環裡面我只提出三環出來談 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12693.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12719.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
因為中央與地方這個合作查緝這個根據昨天的專案報告立法委員國民黨的推給中央民進黨的推給台中所以我不談啦 我不談這種東西我今天來立法院的時間很珍貴我希望把我所知道的盡量的來跟各位做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12720.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12741.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
我講話媒體不會報藍也不報綠也不報但是我只要能夠跟你做報告我就覺得非常的值得第一環源頭管理就國內的源頭我們農委會一年花了22億做了產品履歷驗證檢驗行銷推廣但是我們農委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12748.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12774.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
對地理標示權這種Geographical Interaction非常重要的提升產品的生育品質的機制卻不了解所以22億其實沒有多少效用那麼我們國外進來的源頭我們今天的沈紀長陳沈紀長的報告寫得非常好把很多問題點都點出來我讀了以後非常的高興 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12775.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12788.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
他說邊境的查驗人力不足而且人員留不住所以行政院長他昨天提到要強化源頭的檢驗那如何來達到這個做法其實在國際上這種國際貿易都用裝船潛檢查BSI |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12799.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12810.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
就可以從源頭在外國就擋住有問題的產品而我們的政府機關卻對這種機制國際貿易上流行的機制第二個我們以個人的名義分批業者以個人名義分批進口進來轉售的我們陳審計長說欠缺邊境的管理機制我們如何透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12827.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12856.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
網路資訊來建立管理機制召委我這個能不能讓我多幾分鐘我寫了一個早上的東西讓我那個靜數靜數好不好我靜數我靜數第二環我們的產自銷的聯我們以中聯跟泰山一個是上游一個是中游我們部分業者為落實主動的通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12858.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12885.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
這個因為我們沒有善用這些產油的工會工會自律然後由工會去申請團體商標這些業者如果不自律的剔除工會沒辦法做這個貿易做這個交易這是英國人是這樣做的第二個我們通報要件跟通報的實現是行政院長認為要建立的您今天早上的報告也有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12887.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12913.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
通報如果只是公司的負責人他會演繹但是通報義務人如果是有職長的受僱人他為了自保他會去通報我們都把他稱為是吹哨子其實他不是吹哨子他是他有義務在保險法上這種公司的受僱人如果知道保險事故發生他也有告知義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12914.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12928.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
所以我們行政院在這裡專業不足那麼我們現在要製程以及我們的製程方法基準以及如果製程改變要經過審核 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12930.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12945.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
我要提醒行政院很多高技術的製程都是Process都是營業秘密我們在要求他建立基準以及揭露的時候不能欠他們的營業秘密錢我們前一陣子這一兩個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12948.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12969.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
行政院長非常的雷厲風行但是我要在這裡扮演一個輔導長的角色我們對企業的需求他們的智慧財產權的保護還是要兼顧然後我們的稽查的檢驗要建立第三方驗證我快要結束這個第三方驗證誰互惠次長你知道要誰互惠政府互惠 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12974.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13000.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
還是業者互惠廠商本來就要自主做檢驗這是我們依法有要求的他自己檢驗現在是第三方驗證送外投驗證誰互惠國內有第三方檢驗機構業者互惠還是政府互惠業者互惠那業者互惠會變成受驗證的機構他有義務衝突一方面要告知政府一方面要進到他受認人 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13001.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13005.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
我們在這裡可以發展證明標章這個制度讓這個驗證業者他有證明標章他除了收取驗證的報酬以外他的標章權值得他去維護他就自然的會去落實他的驗證的工作這個事我讀書二十幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13031.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13040.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
累積下來可以運用到本案的謝謝趙委給我這個時間好 謝謝我們結束今天徐委員的質詢接下來請洪孟愷委員好 主席謝謝麻煩請沈記長跟我們衛福部次長請次長跟沈記長可能還要再請教育部次長請莊廖次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13061.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13077.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
好快速幾個問題我想先請教林次長好不好不好意思來林次長我先確認一下說在這段時間兩個多禮拜了齁那其實中央跟地方當然今天我們看到說佐隆泰院長終於媒體報導寫改口啦就說中央地方應該要合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13078.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13105.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
我也認為啊因為全台2350萬人食藥署的主管機關講說重大突發性的全國食安事件是中央主管機關的責任跟地方政府大家互相配合合作是本來就應該那所以在稽查的過程裡面地方政府他掌握到有多少可能有問題的一個有品的時候的業者他需不需要公告讓國人知道地方嗎對要啊而且他們也要讓我們知道啊是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13106.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13122.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
那我想請教剛剛媒體又另外一個報導講說9號的行政院會卓榮泰還嗆說不滿台中為什麼要先公佈毒油的流向還說為什麼要搶快卓榮泰院長的意思是什麼是要地方政府不要公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13122.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13149.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
行政院會我沒有參加我不清楚實際的對談所以我也覺得很奇怪是說當地方政府如同你剛剛講是說要啊要公告因為大家地方政府有藍有綠今天只是說有執政縣市是藍的比較多但是我開中明就講中央地方本來就應該合作那如果說地方政府今天站在民眾的角度認為說民眾有知的權利公告了結果行政院長居然在行政院會裡面還嗆台中市政府說你為什麼要搶快 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13151.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13167.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
這是什麼心態啊第一行政院會我不在場我不清楚當時的對話所以那一天還有石崇良部長還扭曲兩位副市長的八言我可以補充一下這個我們也覺得說匪夷所思啊依照慈安法就像剛剛提到的地方政府去查核地方政府發現有問題要跟我們通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13167.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13189.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
那我們其實在事件發生就是6月30接到通知之後7月1號那時候我們食藥署其實除了要求要下架之外這個流程事實上都是一直都跟地方政府合作也希望地方政府去包含統計下架的狀況去跟相關的業者去做相關後續的處理但是這個過程裡面我們會遇到因為它這個產品散在各個縣市所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13190.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13208.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
不同的地方的衛生局給我們的資訊時間都有落差所以後續這個狀況導致我們在給國人的資訊的部分事實上會有一個delay的狀況我們後來是要求相關包含中聯、泰山、福茂、福壽的業者他們這些資訊除了地方衛生局在稽查或地方衛生局去查核的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13209.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13235.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
另外這三家業者所有資訊也要同步先到食藥署這邊讓我們可以即時第一線掌握不然我們其實食藥署的同仁是尊重地方縣市政府所以每天都在讓地方政府把資訊報上來這個部分導致了一些時間上的延遲所以我們後來是要求地方在業者讓地方政府得到資訊的同時報到食藥署來讓食藥署可以第一時間掌握來兩個部分我讓你完整講完所以我這樣子我就更確定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13235.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13257.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
那第一地方政府並沒有搶快第二如果說中央有什麼掌握不明確或是不了解的狀況其實是業者他沒有及時的通報地方政府但不管怎麼樣到9號了行政院會到9號了左龍泰都還可以講出這個話那今天是媒體用獨家報導出來不然我們也不了解行政院會我也沒參加 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13259.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13276.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
我們更要求的是如果說到了9號這件事情是6月30號爆發但到了9號一個多禮拜過去了行政院長還有這樣的態度的話我說實在話我覺得很傲慢來我以為我對我沒有參加的會議我沒辦法評論好 沒有問題來 那個教育部社長你剛剛有講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13278.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13301.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
全面下架這沒有問題現在5pp次本席已經問了第三天囉我希望今天能夠有一個答案5pp次總共5700公噸是有問題的油品你剛剛也特別回答其他委員講法是說有七個縣市是比較有這些問題油品的一個流入的對260校好那所以有多少數量 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13303.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13318.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
委員因為這個數量因為學校的公餐比較複雜他有公辦公營學校一定有進貨嘛就進貨他消耗了多少給學童施加度有三分之一的學校他是採用那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13320.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13344.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
外地的那個團散那個團散業者他不一定是做學校的他有供外面的那我們學校在使用 那我們勾基了多少我現在就是勾基我們現在算出來就是我們趕快讓他下架對 趕快讓他下架這個是本來就應該做嘛下架完第二你不會有疑問嗎因為全國為什麼本市一直在追這個問題就是因為很多的家長反映到底我們學童有多少吃下肚 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13345.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13371.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
而我認為說這是最能夠掌握是為什麼因為你剛剛也提到99%的學校都有報食材登錄平台也因此我們可以溯源去追蹤那我們現在已經知道五個批號有問題5700多公噸那5700多公噸在過去這三個月有多少食材是被學校使用的就這麼簡單嘛有多少油的量是被學校使用的國小 國中 幼兒園 高中 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13372.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13398.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
我們現在只能夠去查出說有多少學校有使用那個品項因為那個品項它在食材登錄裡面是學校使用的部分所以現在還沒有統計出來我就說要跟委員報告說我們很難去做這樣統計怎麼會呢有的是公辦公營 有的是公辦民營有的是採校外公餐校外公餐的業者這就是我們食材登錄的用我今天一個學校有一千人 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13398.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13406.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
我耗損了多少肉品我耗損了多少油品我過去我可以全面追蹤不然我們這樣的一個食材登錄的平台意義在哪 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13407.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13436.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
如果說我們為什麼市長我相信你也是維恩父母你就想一件事情現在所有人都告訴我們行政院未來會幫忙做什麼幫忙做團體訴訟那如果說我們都不知道我們受害的學童有多少這個沒有問題就是我們我受害的學童吃了多少有問題也有的話我怎麼有辦法去要求因為那個賠償賠償出來之後我們會去盤說多少學校多少學校使用然後吃的學生有多少我想這是重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13436.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13458.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
是 所以本席現在就要問這個答案但是到目前我問了三天從第一天我問部長昨天我問行政院院長結果部長還給我扯基隆我說你如果說你要扯基隆的數據那你當基隆的教育局局長就好啦你是全國的教育部部長你當然要告訴我中華民國的學校數字因為現在第一步我們就是先讓他下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13459.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13471.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
下架之後他買的剩餘多少下架6月30號是不是通報就已經下架了嘛現在我們在問的是今天是7月15號已經過了15天整整兩個禮拜了還沒有辦法盤點出來嗎那什麼時候可以盤點出來來 次長什麼時候能夠盤點出來來 請次長盡速的給答案兩週好不好還要兩週 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13482.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13498.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
已經兩週過去還要再兩週因為各地方政府真的他們那個共產形態不一樣然後他們辦理退的還有剩的下架的他到底怎麼樣他還要花一點時間去算因為第一我們已經有把有問題的有就先下架了那他們也要去現在是 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13498.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13528.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
市長大家都知道有問題喔下架現在你要在市面上找有問題還找不到為什麼因為業者都會自主管理看到貨那個品牌他都不敢再放了但本席現在要問的是過去四到六月五批五千多公噸不是小數目會不會有第六批第七批不知道而我們現在只有檢查四月到六月有沒有一月到三月的也不知道所以我們一開始是擴大清查來有疑似的我們就清查 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13529.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13554.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
本席先,我們之後再把相關資料給你但是我等你兩週兩週後告訴財政委員會告訴本席我們到底這四到六月有多少有問題的油品是流入校園數量有多少連同衛福部現在在積查的有沒有可能有第七批第八批因為衛福部一個禮拜內會把二十九批全部都積查完畢有可能有第六批第七批不知道但是確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13556.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13570.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
兩個禮拜內給本席跟財政委會請交一份兩個星期之內給我們其實也一直在清查孟愷委員以及財委會相關的資料 不好意思 主席 不好意思一分鐘 再一分鐘就好 不好意思 一分鐘一定我簡報 一個簡報秀一下就好來 那個次長林次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13573.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13594.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
來林市長這個是一個那個發票業者他們自主前天就做出了一個平台通報就說你可以去查你過去的一個消費紀錄你登錄你只要有做這樣的一個發票載具那你就可以查然後就可以看到是說你過去這三個月有買到哪一些是有問題的品項我覺得這做得很快也很 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13595.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13620.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
讓人家安心很多人使用媒體前天報導那我是想問說這樣子的一個機制我們能不能有更擴大一個學習的方向我們會多方學習跟多方改善那不過委員這個部分如果說可以的話我也希望能夠有官方的版本讓民眾可以更去了解就是說我過去這段時間如果說有消費真的有買到有問題的有品的相關的品項先讓委員報告就是說這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13620.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13648.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
它有就我今天委員很多委員提到的這個部分它有跟針對從用發票這邊去勾但是有一些它其實有散在有些不是用載具的所以我們現在食藥署當然固定另外一個可能大家會覺得比較愚笨但是我們的固定公佈就是我們把440項所有受到影響的產品全部都公佈在食藥署的網站上這個是業者他做的很多民眾用了覺得方便是我知道那我們有速發部我們有相關這個更先進的單位那你能不能來配合是說業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13650.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13666.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
你看那個媒體報導他說他花了兩個小時就做出這樣的一個APP我們會再跟財政部這邊討論因為他簽了到發票那如果沒有發票就是說這個是發票這邊我們會跟財政部再勾結好 請衛福部長這邊也來協助民眾來做這樣的勾結那最後審計長你就 不好意思 讓你站在那裡我沒有時間但是我就說審計單位拜託一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13673.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13691.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
20%神秘的數字當初為什麼這件事情會爆發那麼嚴重就是因為在第一時間食藥署告訴我們是說20%以內不用下架國人覺得華人覺得奇怪你不是當初講說食安玲瓏人嗎那20%怎麼來的昨天的行政院長的專案報告你如果說去看一下那整篇啊20%消失了 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13693.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13713.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
整本裡面找不到20%這個數字代表上代表公好像現在政府也在轉向當初講20%不用下架然後後來被罵了被爆了才說全面要下架那到底20%怎麼來的誰決定的做決策的是誰拜託沈記長這邊能夠來調查一下可以嗎可以 我們可以做了解好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13714.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13724.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
好 了解之後給委員會完整的說明 謝謝謝謝孟愷委員 接下來請中嘉賓 中嘉賓 中嘉賓委員 王玉明委員好 謝謝主席 我們有請衛福部林靜儀次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13745.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13764.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
市長我請教你好這個爆發史上最嚴重的這個食安事件但是昨天行政院院長在這個院會他道歉兩個字說不出口請問你也是一個醫師你認為爆發這麼重大的食安事件從老人到小孩幾乎全國民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13765.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13786.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
大家都吃到了這一些獨有的食品你自己吃到了沒你對照那些產品你吃到了沒我沒有去對照你沒有對照對因為在我們在立法院中午吃便當有訂台鐵便當我們都吃到了那這個為什麼院長連一句道歉都說不出口有這麼難嗎人民和菇 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13789.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13811.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
人民何辜這個就是政府把關不利啊業者無良但是政府也把關不利難道跟民眾說一句道歉有這麼的難嗎委員我今天已經說過這個案子從中央跟地方因為執行的業務在地方我想從你口中大概聽不到道歉兩個字我現在要追問的是這麼嚴重的食安事件現在已經過了兩個禮拜了 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13813.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13839.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
但是造成獨有的原因你們是初一十五原因都不一樣在7月5號的時候媒體報導江志剛署長他說開了專家會議他告訴大家巴西黃豆含水率高所以最有可能就是從巴西黃豆這邊出來的結果今天我聽了次長回答委員的詢問你說不是巴西黃豆是製程有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13840.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13865.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
那你們兩個人的說法不一到底誰的說法為準這兩件事情都受影響原料跟製程都是影響所以我們現在對於你上午的回答就有誤導上午有委員在追問你巴西黃豆的時候你說跟豆子沒有關係說有其他的油品廠都用到豆子對 因為有別的油廠也有用到巴西的豆子所以你這個說法太武斷你要不要收回來我再一次重調7月5號是專家學者的會議我們這裡面對於當然專家學者會議我們後續還會再召開 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13869.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13879.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
那我專家這邊也都認為說還要再針對所以你不能排除巴西黃豆啊我不用排除巴西黃豆你早上回答賴氏寶委員我聽到的就是這樣問題不是那個巴西那個問題是豆的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13880.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13904.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
那就是巴西進口的黃豆它的含水量比較高嗎接下來我要問你我上個禮拜就問過部長巴西黃豆的流向如果專家會議有指指巴西黃豆含水量高的話那我查過今年以來已經是70萬噸的這個巴西黃豆的進口去年有87萬噸我上個禮拜問你們說掌握這些巴西黃豆的流向沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13905.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
13931.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
除了中聯到底進了多少其他油廠進了多少上個禮拜沒有答案你們現在答案出來了嗎那讓我回答好來你講就是說今年1月到5月巴西進來60萬公噸那在前端就是在前端黃豆進來的時候那時候有查總共有15家業者有做輸入那這15家業者用的最多的是大統益美蘭蕾跟福壽這是三個大統益對大統益不是中聯我這邊的資料是大統益 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
13935.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
13955.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
那大統益在這個南區我們食藥署南區那邊7月8號有再去做抽驗是合格的那再來說他的豆合格還是他的油品合格油你們是抽幾月到幾月的我們今年7月8號去抽驗抽幾月的油品我們這邊抽到的是現場的七槽 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
13957.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
13983.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
現場那它之前的呢因為如果4到6月現在週年爆發的是4到6月你們有沒有抽4到6月的郵品這邊我們他們自己有流樣所以今年他們每個月有流14批的樣那我們另外也有再去抽那驗到的結果呢4到6月驗出來的都沒有問題都符合標準目前所以他們是同一批的有嗎要確認喔你不要到時候又爆發出來有問題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
13987.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14015.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
其他還在檢驗當中那我們現在有一件事檢驗合格好 還在檢驗中我覺得這件事情到目前為止你們獨有發生的原因都還沒有查清楚你們就急著要讓一些預防性下架商品上架這個是有問題的因為你一定要把原因查清楚之後你才知道問題發生在哪裡就像你早上在回答委員的問題的時候你們現在一下子說是這個黃豆有問題巴西黃豆含水量過高專家學者會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14017.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14044.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
然後一下子你又說是中聯製程它的製程有問題你們都還沒有十足把握的時候匆匆忙忙要讓這些商品再上架我認為是不可取的第一個我要講的是食安事件你不只是四到六月現在的預防性下架還有你還要向上溯源向上追查我就問中聯它一到三月的油品它還有樣品嗎你們還查得到它一到三月的確定沒有問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14045.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14059.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
我們現在對於中聯的就是現在是4到6月份我們正在驗那是不是要往回追溯我先跟我們報導就是說至少以當地的主管機關他在113年114年驗的都合格這是我們現在能夠掌握到的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14060.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14084.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
所以你現在到底能不能保證它之前四月以前都沒有問題這個委員我們只能說現在的資料以過去我們台中市政府衛生局驗的然後跟我們現在四月份拿到的資料往下驗的這兩個部分我們能處理那至於說過去那段時間因為有一些廠商他們可以有一些自主檢驗的部分這個是不是容我們再回去跟廠商調過去一到三月他們自主檢驗的資料今天我要告訴你的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14084.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14107.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
把原因查清楚是解決下一次食安事件不能再發生的一個很重要的關鍵但是你們現在對於是不是巴西黃豆黃豆有問題還是中聯的製程有問題你們現在都還沒有十足的把握我要求你們要盡快把你們現在一個是中聯所有的還有二十幾批你還沒有公佈喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14108.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14127.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
現在還在驗喔所以你這個結果都還沒出來之前你根本就不應該讓這些有疑慮的商品快速的上架我覺得你這樣子你真的都公佈完確定沒有問題之後然後你所有的預防性下架的這些你再次驗然後再上架國人才會安心你這樣匆匆忙忙其實對國人來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14129.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14157.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
它其實是不安心會造成市場秩序更混亂而已所以這個部分我希望你們可以把握這個原則那我就問你你現在所有追查另外的20P的21P的到底什麼時候會整個結果出來目前我們有24P然後有52項產品因為有些不是從中聯有些是從它後面就是其他的廠商這邊的資料到底什麼時候整個完整結果會出來院長要求我們一週內要把所有的數據檢查完成所以下個禮拜幾禮拜三禮拜一 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14159.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14180.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
今天是禮拜三我們現在大家都在趕 整個實驗室都在趕還有我要求剛剛講的大同益的部分他同樣有進口巴西的黃豆而且他進口很多那這個部分你們現在驗的結果還沒有出來的是不是一週後也可以同時公布應該會公布 我們現在競速的做都可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14180.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14207.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
好 國人要的是一個真相然後要的是行政院長一個真誠的道歉要的是這樣的一個重大食安事件不會再發生所以我希望大家是秉持這樣的原則來處理這一次的食安事件要卸責給地方政府這絕對不是一個解方也是民眾不想看見的好 謝謝好 謝謝我們結束王玉民委員的質詢接下來曾振前 曾振前 曾振前委員不在請楊瓊瑛委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14216.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14218.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
發生了這麼重大的這個食安議題那你認為他到底原因是出在哪裡為什麼會導致這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14240.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14267.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
第一個事情在廠商這邊我們在7月4號專家會議裡面專家這邊認為是說整個在中聯這邊他們製程的品管HACCP做得並不符合標準這是第一個部分第二個部分在相關的廠商這一邊其實在4月份有廠商自主去驗驗完之後發現有問題但是遲遲沒有通知包含地方主管機關跟中央主管機關所以這個部分在通報的部分是有一個是中間是有一個很大的落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14267.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14292.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
第三個事情就是過去食藥署這邊我們訂定的相關油脂的標準沒有一些專案讓地方政府來做檢驗但是訂了這個標準我們至少希望他半年至少驗一次不過看情況當然在地方上也會有驗的頻次其實就真的只有如果像這麼大的廠商有一些他的這個檢驗的部分他又真的半年才驗一次這個認為我們認為那個頻次不夠所以這個部分我們要要求他們能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14294.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14299.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
以這三項的說明就是表示這一次食安你認為最大的漏洞是在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14301.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14328.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
這是幾個 其中的漏洞都有影響廠商 通報 檢驗所以你也知道漏洞在哪裡 政府的責任在哪裡所以接下來我們要重新再問到目前為止你認為這個事件發生這麼重大政府的責任在哪裡政府的缺失在哪裡這邊我們剛剛提到 剛剛就是我們說到的包含檢驗的評次 我們可能未來我們要加強它檢驗的評次再來就是對於廠商這邊的通報責任或者是第三工政方檢驗的這個通報責任這個部分未來要在十三法裡面把它加進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14330.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14357.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
當事情發生的時候 政府告訴我們修法是強化源頭管理 強化製程管理強化異常通報 強化品質管理 強化數位治理研議要求大型高風險食品業設置專業的獨立董事等六項措施是在這一次說一個禮拜內要修食安法的方向對不對是 我們先要提出食安法的方向表示以前你的責任在哪裡呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14358.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14382.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
讓人民產生了這麼大的一個食安問題到現在還不清不楚所以在這邊要請教你們的修法目前為止我們這次的改革是要制度的提升還是補上過去你監督的這個漏洞呢都要都要齁好這一句都要表示 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14383.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14410.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
這一次光光在6月11號最明確的已經知道但是到6月30才這個陳報上來業者拿去實驗室報告也只有給這個業者政府部門完全在這一段時間完全都不知道我們要怎麼改昨天跟卓葵討論本席強烈的要求未來實驗室只要有碰到有問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14411.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14416.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
有異常的就必須要同步的來通知你贊成吧所以這一定要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14421.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14447.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
我們的修法也並不是這一次食安的漏洞完全的一個答案而是目前為止我們如果有行政命令可以直接執行之的我們更應該要去做還是目前我們的條文有的我們沒有去做到這個責任才導致這麼大嗎現在都照相關的標準在處理所以這也是剛剛委員補充的就是說在現在行政命令可以調整的包含檢驗評次因為檢驗評次這個部分我們過去需要阻止 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14451.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14458.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
而且是這麼樣全國都在用的不管進入到學校 進入到團賽 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14460.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14482.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
數量大的高比例的你更應當要加密去檢查嘛對不對可是委員我們其實過去四年我們都有給地方政府相關的專案那但是在中聯郵址的資料裡面在地方政府的稽查113年一次 114年三次所以務必一定要保障我們的安全我再來請教教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14493.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14503.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
前天告訴我們食藥署公布你們教育部透過我們食材的平台檢驗出來包括幼兒園以上的是881家現在是1380家 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14507.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14530.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
然後你們宣布要研議建立高風險的這個食材供應商如果經過這個公告是重大的事案的不得再進入校園本席要請教你們用疑似兩個字告訴社會大眾到底我目前1380所學校到底是有還是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14530.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14536.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
那個委員可能有些誤解第一個我們是針對那個油品的部分油品的部分本來15項現在變50項我們清查出 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14540.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14552.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
7個縣市260所學校直接用那個油品的相關油品那你剛才講的那個數字呢是後來那個衛福部又公佈用那個油品再製那個品項當然是再製啊衛福部荒腔走板本來說20%以下的沒有關係現在不行我們反映了現在一直報連環報再報再報所以市長針對問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14565.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14571.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
民眾要問的 家長要問的是說到底我的孩子在學校有沒有吃到毒油 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14573.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14592.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
當然是這一次實案有波及到校園這是事實那我剛才把它講完就是後來那個440項的那個再製的那些用那個油品再製的是440項後來我們為什麼用疑似呢因為那個實案登錄平台有的記載的那個關鍵字會不一樣所以我們是擴大清查擴大清查是861校跟300 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14595.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14596.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
孩子的午餐不能建立在你事後的補救上 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14612.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14629.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
對不對對你一定認同這個原則是 沒有錯我們的孩子到底有沒有吃下相關的毒油目前是有不管是再製還是什麼當然是家長只有要知道昨天卓葵質詢的時候她說一週之內去清查清楚那你多久可以告訴我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14630.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14635.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
是不是如同昨天所說的一週之內去清查清楚因為你們上下都不連貫你剛剛回答委員說要兩週那到底是什麼時候可以告訴家長我的孩子吃得有沒有健康兩週是指說他要我們算出那個量我跟他說那個量因為學校的公餐有三種形態有一種是從外面直接公餐他用的油 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14654.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14679.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
可能我們在這個學校登錄是有的但是他量有時候他有做外面針對我們學校控管在教育部到底什麼時候可以告訴我們他們到底有沒有吃到毒油我們都第一時間都已經公布了請教什麼時候可以告訴我們現在就已經公布了我們逐批在公布因為我們是下游單位我們是使用者你現在用儀式請告訴我們你多久可以告訴我們他們有沒有吃到毒油 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14680.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14708.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
對 我們現在都已經在公告什麼時候會把所有疑似的調查清楚疑似現在配同地方縣府清查你們多久時間可以告訴家長家長要問的事我什麼時候可以知道答案嘛其實我們440項疑似全部都下架了全部下架了就是你講的1195個我們要知道的ending的答案到底我的孩子有沒有吃一下毒油 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14709.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14738.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
委員我再稍微說明一下就是這個部分它廠商的這個超標是它的製程有問題超標超標之後但是今天不論今天的這個油品進入到飲食的過程它不是直接油進去油在烹調過程它就會造成本田皮的增加所以這個部分要稍微說一下那第二個部分您剛剛所提到本田皮是致癌物家長很緊張所以最後它的製程是 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14739.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14755.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
市長 孩子的家長 社會大眾需要知道的是到底我的孩子吃下的有沒有毒不是一直讓他們在等待委員這邊我再說明一下相關的油品什麼時候會全部清查完現在對於中聯這29批已經全部預防性下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14764.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14785.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
預防性下降 我們在等待到底我的孩子有沒有吃到毒品嗎 自己教育部的工作啦市長多久時間啦委員你剛才有一些數字是這樣子 你講的1385應該是指說我們7月1號收到那個有品的 相關的我們7月2號通知那個地方之間我們去清查 那已經清查完了 就是260項260項260項是有問題的 對那現在怎麼辦呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14792.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14802.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
我們都已經下架了其他疑似在調查什麼時候會有答案疑似的是440項什麼時候會公佈出來那個已經都下架了下架但是沒有調查還在調查當中你的疑似是不是告訴我家長說這個就是有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14814.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14830.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
本家請問的 你要對喔 你要講清楚喔沒有錯 7月1號因為你是用疑似喔 可是你的文字上面是疑似喔不是 疑似的部分是因為我們根據你下架不等於是確認啊 到底是有還是沒有嘛疑似 疑似的原因是因為我們是預防性下架對啊 那我們家長要請問啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14834.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
14855.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
妳下架的不表妳的儀式不表示到底是有還是沒有我們要聽妳教育不告訴我們的到底是有還是沒有嘛這一批油做的都預防性下架了但是妳們也不會再去畫不會去回到實驗室去查就對了妳預防性下架妳預防性下架儀式我不論妳這一批蛋糕是什麼狀況總之妳用到這個油就下架 就這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
14864.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
14890.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
我要請問次長你們公布的疑似是不是表示就是有對 就是我們我再講兩次一次是7月1號那一次這一次440項是根據衛福部公布的440項只要疑似的我們有861項334左右全部都下架只要疑似就下架疑似你下架但是我要請教到底是有還是沒有就是都下架了都下架是有還是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
14891.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
14913.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
有可能有但他不想查我們就只要疑似就下架你怎麼可以這樣不告訴身為大眾呢你的疑似下架你是預防性下架嘛但是我家長要問的是我的孩子有沒有吃下毒油啊到底是有還是沒有這部分如果委員還要相關的資料我們再來清查不是我要相關資料是家長要確認到底有還沒有你趕快去查好不好我們就是根據衛福部的440項來做預防性下架嘛就是有861項 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
14920.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
14926.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
趕快去查到底是有還是沒有就是有 我們在預防好 謝謝我們結束楊瓊英委員的質詢接下來請葉元智委員主席好 我們請教育部次長謝謝次長 請張亮次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
14954.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
14977.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
市長 我跟你確定一下數字就是現在到底有多少有問題的油品及相關製品流入校園你說教育部在食藥署7月1號開始食藥署公佈之後就開始啟動7月2號開始陸陸續續將比對結果通知地方教育局然後截至7月14號開始大概有260家直接有用到油品 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
14978.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
14986.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
然後大概有861所學校及334所幼兒園有用到第二層的加工食品那實際上這個數字應該會逐漸持續增加當中因為這個是截止到7月14號為止那我這邊提醒你一件事情因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
14998.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15024.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
地方的家長都非常的關心就是小朋友到底有沒有吃到這些油品可是地方教育局其實都一直在等教育部或者是衛福部在公佈相關的批號因為它現在的批號是逐漸增加當中總共四月到六月是有二十九個批次那最近最新告訴大家是五個批次有問題嘛那左翁泰院長是講說一個禮拜之內要把二十九批全部驗完嘛那所以其實現在都還在清查當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15025.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15039.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
那有一件事情是不是可以我不知道教育部還是衛福部可以有一個單一窗口啦就是趕快通知地方政府不然現在地方政府是怎麼知道批號你知道嗎看新聞欸他們是看新聞才知道有問題的批號有問題的批號是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15041.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15065.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
我找一個建議 我覺得這不合理喔我要補充一下因為依照食安法其實本來這些廠商他對的比方說中聯的話他上面是台中市政府衛生局他就是要報給台中市衛生局所以沒有道理地方衛生局是看電視才知道地方衛生局就是他的主管機關地方這些廠商今天中聯在台中他就要報告給台中市衛生局今天如果是在彰化縣的他就要報告給彰化縣衛生局 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15066.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15090.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
你跟地方政府講說要盡快公佈因為大家一直在逐漸在清查當中我們就是地方政府他在清查的過程我們直接要求廠商也資料給我們本來應該是他們給地方衛生局地方衛生局給我們後來我們直接認為這樣會有資訊的延遲所以廠商給地方衛生局的同時廠商也要給我們所以之前一開始第一時間的時候那時候大家就講說衛福部可不可以有一個公開透明的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15090.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15119.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
我們現在有在我們的我們有明確的在公告而且幫委員說是好啦沒有沒有我沒有要找你那個啦第一個就是盡快第二個那個教育部長這個因為現在因為主要各個縣市都是免費營養午餐嘛是都是免費營養午餐所以家長們對於那個食材到底夠不夠營養然後還有它的來源清不清楚其實額外的重視因為免費了嘛大家反而會認為說到底我小朋友吃了到底健不健康有沒有頭疼全部免費是八月以後而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15121.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15141.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
你們現在清查的主要的方式是透過食材登錄網先看食材登錄網有沒有有問題的品牌但是食材登錄網只有品牌沒有批次所以看到品牌之後還要用人工的方式去查去查說他到底有沒有用到有問題的品牌所以他需要一點時間去查現在的問題在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15143.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15152.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
我們來看一下其實現在實材登錄網我隨便去看像這個就是有登錄的這個有登錄的但我有去看有些是也沒登錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15153.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15182.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
也有沒登錄的而且我隨便去看還不少啦那這個沒有他有兩個盲點啦第一個盲點是其實學校在登錄的時候有些學校他沒有營養師沒有營養師就變成廠商告訴告訴他們什麼東西他們就只能登錄因為他不知道嘛對不對學校就這樣如果你自己想想看你是你是學校老師那當然是廠商告訴你這個東西油是什麼東西他就照登錄所以萬一廠商有報錯我不要說故意隱匿啦有報錯那就會因為學校有三種型態嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15182.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15206.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
一個公辦公營一個公辦民營一個是外面來所以他填報的公辦公營當然是學校填我現在只學校填的部分如果廠商有報錯像委員說上去你看不到因為我們是規定當天就要登錄他當天如果沒有登錄我們那個是會學校那個是會做考核的反正就是有看到沒有登錄第二個我想應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15207.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15219.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
實際上我們現在學校的老師也真的很忙啊你也都很清楚啦他們要登錄這個東西其實他們不是只有登錄食材網而已還有三缸EQ啦一大堆行政作業啦真的都做不完好 我要講那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15222.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15250.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
其實有一些學校的狀況比較好是為什麼呢它是自立廚房有營養師的我現在跟你討論就是就想跟你討論這件事情其實我們發現在各縣市免費營養午餐之後大家對這個很重視然後學校自立廚房營養師的做得特別好為什麼呢因為他有一個專職的人力他從一開始食材的把關然後到登錄這些系統因為他是專業在做這件事情嘛到中午在做菜的時候直接到廚房去盯這個就是可以讓家長非常安心 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15251.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15272.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
可是現在如果是有學校供餐的營養師的部分其實不是每個學校都有按照現行的規定是40個班一個營養師大概的比例以這個比例來換算的話大概所有學校大概三四成有營養師40班一個有的學校不到40班就沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15273.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15292.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
我是這個部長當然因為我們現在都在討論那個營養午餐法那你也知道營養午餐法討論這個大家都意見很多如果要等到修法完了才有母法然後讓各校去偵測營養師其實真的有點緩不濟急所以既然就是這個食安事件你也看得出來每個人都非常關心就學校的食安的問題在營養師的這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15295.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15314.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
營養師對不對我不知道能不能教育部直接頒布一個我把建議講完直接頒布個辦法嘛就是說不要受限40個班就是只要是學校公餐都能夠有營養師然後那就可以有營養師來處理啊家長也放心啊然後食材也可以登錄啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15316.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15342.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
然後你有辦法的話各縣市的這個教育局他也才比較有這個辦法去跟他的財主單位去爭取說我們要設營養師因為現在免費營養午餐家長真的很重視這一塊所以委員建議很好啦我們會跟地方政府來討論我們就這一次食安事件列入營養午餐法裡面去做完整的考量我們在還沒專法之前我們會跟地方政府討論我覺得這個可以先做嘛好不好因為你看大家都非常重視這件事情嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15343.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15349.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
然後再一個就好還有就是因為之前2014年當時鼎新事件的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15350.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15375.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
其實教育部那時候有跟就是有請那個消保處去規劃團體輸送作業嘛那我不知道說這一次是不是也是有有這次行政院已經指示了我們有兩個民間的那個團體就是那個消基會跟消保協會他們對於這個球場的部分社會跟學校我們學校也被分配到就是說透過這些將來的那個法律明確之後會透過這些消保團體來球場來幫所以這個確定會有團體輸送那相關辦法是什麼時候會出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15380.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15394.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
我們會配合行政院應該是會發文給各地方政府就請他們協助去登記我們會配合行政院的那個來啟動我們一起來啟動已經啟動了嗎已經啟動了嗎團體訴訟已經啟動了團體訴訟已經啟動了那這個食安基金會做相關的指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15400.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15422.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
好謝謝我們結束葉元之委員質詢今日登記發言委員均與詢答完畢我們本日會議做如下的決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一週之內已書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定本日會議議程已進行完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15424.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15427.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
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