| IVOD_ID |
17577 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17577 |
| 日期 |
2026-07-08 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-26-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
18 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-07-08T08:31:01+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-07-08T16:31:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
07:59:59 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a68593abdbd2e83a3e4fb6918ac9a81339757149c28021a325205c7c77ab1ee8cea05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-07-08T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
討論事項
審查
一、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。
二、委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。
三、委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案。
四、委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。
五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。
六、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。
七、委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。
八、委員黃健豪等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。
九、委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。
十、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。
十一、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。
十二、委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。
十三、委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。
十四、委員陳超明等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。
十五、委員黃健豪等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案。
十六、委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。
十七、委員王育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」案。
【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答，討論事項僅詢答】
【討論事項第十七案，如經復議則不予審查】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:01 - 16:31:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
576.17 |
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我們才 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1855.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1883.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
現在開會請主席報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員11人已足法定人數請議事委員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議事錄時間115年7月2日9時12分至12時39分地點群憲樓801會議室出席委員林月琴等13人列席委員許中信等5人列席官員衛生福利部部長石聰亮及各相關部會主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1884.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1909.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
主席林昭吉委員月勤報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定討論事項審查委員徐巧欣等19人拟據煙災防治法第26條條文修正草案案等17案本次會議經委員王育敏林倩起及陳金輝說明提案指去由衛生福利部部長石聰良說明後委員林月勤等14人提出質詢軍警衛生福利部部長石聰良及各相關主管即席答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1910.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1910.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
請問委員會上次議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1938.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1951.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
本日會議議程為 邀請衛生福利部部長 教育部及經濟部 農業部就食安問題報不停 如何構建使國人安心生活就學與食品廠安全管理精進作為 進行專題報告並備質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1956.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1974.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
討論事項審查委員廖瑋祥等18人凝聚食品安全衛生管理法第24條及25條條文修正草案等17案專題報告及法律案採詢綜合詢答方式進行接著介紹介紹在場委員李玉琴召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1977.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1994.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
陳毅臻委員 葛如軍委員 蘇清泉委員 羅廷維委員 屠權吉委員黃建斌委員 徐巧欣委員 黃建豪委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1996.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2021.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
張家俊委員林佩祥委員廖偉祥委員王洪威委員陳金輝委員徐宇正委員王育民委員林倩琦委員邱振軍委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2027.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2052.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
介紹綠席官員衛生福利部石成良部長食品藥物管理署署長江志剛教育部學權教育署副署長戴淑芬經濟部產業發展署副署長周宇新廠發署副署長郡良國貿署副署長林百芬 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2056.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2076.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
台糖副總經理蔡東林食品安全辦公室主任許甫國防部後勤管理處處長賀志豪入軍副食供應中心主任江正賢 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2079.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2105.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
農業部農糧署副署長黃昭興記者李瓊妮法務部參事汪南君官務署副署長陳美智補充介紹范瑩委員 范瑩委員王振旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2110.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2112.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
現在請委員說明提案要職 每位委員兩分鐘請張家俊委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2128.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2158.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
主席各位委員大家早那今天本席提出的食品安全衛生管理法第22條修正草案主要的目的就是要讓食品標示更透明讓消費者知道自己買的食品真正的主要原料來自哪裡同時也要保障台灣優質的農產品與農民的公平競爭環境各位可以想一想我們去超市買一瓶 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2158.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2176.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
一包花生買一罐蒜頭一包茶葉包裝上寫著產地是台灣一般人一定會想說這就是台灣農民種出來的但是呢事實上不是這樣因為現行的規定是國外的農產品只要在台灣經過加工達到所謂的實質轉型原產地就可以標示為台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2187.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2207.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
代表進口的花生進口的大蒜進口的茶葉只要在台灣經過這個烘烤研磨包裝法規上就可以堂而皇之的標示台灣製造這就是習慘地我們每天在立法院講食安消費者的權益講到最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2209.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2231.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
連原料從哪裡來 這種基本的資訊都沒有辦法提供給消費者那我們談什麼食安呢 談什麼消費者的權益甚至不只傷害消費者的知情權 還有台灣農民的生計一個辛苦種植花生的農民 辛辛苦苦種出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2232.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2251.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
要跟打著MIT旗號的進口原料加空品來競爭何其不公平所以本席的提案修法重點就是要明定內容物主要分屬的農產品其原料應該要予以標示那 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2251.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2276.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
在這裡希望我們所有的委員能夠支持讓消費者知道真實的來源讓本土的農產品受到公平的對待讓食品產業在透明的規則之下健全發展那這才是本席此次修法最重要的目的那以上是本席的提案說明敬請各位委員支持謝謝主席謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2285.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2289.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
謝謝主席本人提出了兩條修正案第一條是第四條食安法第四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2310.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2320.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
在110年1月1號開放萊克多巴胺的美豬30個月的年齡的美瘤 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2322.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2343.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
全部開放 外界批評是突擊式的開放引發整個社會的爭議 招致民眾餘力不安目前我們整個學界無法證明瘦肉菌對人體毫無副作用 事實上是有副作用的因此包括歐盟在內 現在全世界有一百多個國家還是禁用 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2344.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2364.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
對於政府對外政策恐怕遭受外國貿易條件交換的考量為避免國人面臨食安風險以及避免食品安全成為外國貿易的交換條件應該加入人民公投選項展現人民意志作為政府施政最後的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2366.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2391.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
為避免面臨食安風險所以本案就提出食安法第四條的規定增加人民複決機制 針對食安爭議 人民得以人民的意志來表達政府依據公投的結果 作為政策最後的依據也有增加政府的底氣所以我們自己的食安 自己救另外第22條 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2393.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2422.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
就是要以前受體術每豬每牛進口都有可能做成食品加工水餃 餛飩 肉包 貢丸等等進入學校的營養午餐軍隊或機關團散夜市小吃尤其台灣的習俗女性作業者家庭常常準備豬的內臟補身屬於高風險的族群如果作業者期間每日設計一份 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2424.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2447.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
豬腎及豬肝,則有可能超過安全食量避免社會疑慮我們修正這第22條政府應該資訊開放等相關措施在各式商場各種銷售通路、城內區擺放含有萊克多巴胺乙型受體素及甲加工的標示告訴社會大眾、消費者讓消費者擁有 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2449.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2469.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
充足的資訊然後這一次的VAP就是Venrolpyrine這個食用油所引起的軒然大波我們正如一再講說這是在煉製過程中所產生的化學物質但是我 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2470.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2498.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
最近請教了很多化學專家我高度懷疑這個是在原料就受汙染因為中聯油脂這一次它的黃豆是用巴西黃豆巴西黃豆剛好碰到雨季潮濕怕發霉等等所以他們用強溫高溫來煙燻所以跟大家報告這個用油跟煤炭來煙燻 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2499.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2528.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
會造成整個有機化合物全部沾在大豆的殼上面所以這一方面一定要強烈的來探討 以上好 謝謝蘇志群委員現有委員提出程序發言依據立法院議事規則在委員發言前先宣告發言的時間每位委員發言三分鐘需要發言的委員麻煩到主席台這邊登記現在請登記第一號王宏威委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2547.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2572.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
主席還有各位今天來參加專案報告的各位同仁我們可以看到這一次自然有流竄全台但是到目前為止一個多禮拜我們全部的國人如此的關心在我前面是目前已經可以公布查到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2574.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2592.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
使用到這個致癌油的所有的相關的食品涵蓋我們所有國人包含外食族的早餐包含在我們國人的餐桌上包含在我們校園學生的營養午餐裡面影響何其重大但是為什麼要提出程序發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2600.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2616.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這是今天各單位的報告看到了嗎單位非常的多但是我特別指出最重要的衛福部看到沒有來給大家看這是封面再來結束了結束了 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2624.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2630.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
請問一下衛福部引起國人這麼關心的一個食安議題流算全台的議題難道只有短短的兩個A4紙就可以交代嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2642.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2653.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
這樣就交代我們現在國人最關心的食安問題耶大家看到了嗎這就是現在的衛福部就是現在的行政院就是現在的民進黨政府會不會太離譜我們可以看到事件發生之後我們的主管機關視且麻木不仁事後荒腔走板 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2669.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2682.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
可以看到 包括要不要公佈流向蓋牌 第一時間蓋牌在整個國人月份明月沖天之後才決定公佈流向接著 要不要讓產品下架第一時間搞出了一個20%第一次耶 20%從哪裡來的不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2695.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2697.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
然後昨天晚上才緊急的把所有沒有20%了請問一下我們的措施我們的對策是這樣反反覆覆荒腔走板完全沒有辦法真正的關心國人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2715.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2730.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
所以我希望待會的報告我們的衛福部部長應該先代表衛福部行政院以及整個的政府先向國人道歉再來做報告否則的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2734.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2754.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
用所謂的兩個efforts來糊弄大家來應付大家我們絕不能接受所以我要求待會請在報告之前先向國人道歉才能夠展示你們的誠意到現在為止沒人道歉沒人下台沒人負責絕不接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2759.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2764.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
好 謝謝榮紅委員 現在請登記第二位徐巧鑫委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2771.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2798.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
謝謝主席道歉下台負責補貨網這就是我們今天所有人對於要替國人發聲的訴求我們可以看一下這次的食安事件是處理的有多麼的荒腔走板到現在沒有人為這件事情道歉也不需要有人下台負責過去食安事件發生的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2798.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2823.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
民進黨的立法院很多的立法委員都說誰誰誰應該要下台誰誰誰要負責而這次油品大家可以看到前面的清單很多根本是民眾要拿來當健康一點的食品用的比如蔬食的沙拉沙拉醬全部都中標要吃的安心吃的健康反而吃到有致癌風險的油然後呢我必須要講 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2826.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2845.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
政府的政策一個禮拜改了三四次國人無所適從只看到蓋牌先是看到第一時間拒絕公佈名單而且標準跟歷次的食安事件完全不一致我記得當時我們剛進立法院的時候爆發了蘇丹紅事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2846.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2856.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
蘇丹紅事件也是影響我們國人食安健康非常大的一次風暴大家也紛紛在這裡提出了質疑那時候怎麼做的是不是全面下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2857.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2861.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
結果我們新增了一個百分之二十的門檻一直到今天要開專報昨天才把它取消各縣市政府沒有辦法接受食安它不僅僅是對人體身體的風險還有包含是我們對於食品廠的公平正義的問題你訂一個百分之二十的標準無論如果它還是超標了那請問你訂那個標準要幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2881.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2896.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那你乾脆直接告訴國人說每天多吃幾碗飯把它代謝掉反正呢就可以低於20%的標準大家都很健康到了昨天都還在食藥署還在找所謂的專家來洗地在不斷的強調說這個對人體的安全沒有傷害違規的就是違規了 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2901.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2908.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
政策連續幾日好幾次改從第二層不用下架不用公佈到專家會議後改口說20%以上的再下架就好分成三層揭露被罵了以後才說公佈257家再說掌握一筆公佈一筆再到現在才把名單公佈下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2921.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2926.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
總統跟行政院基本上完全慢半拍賴清德總統他所發表的四點五點聲明基本上都是廢話本來就該做的事情所以現在這麼嚴重的事我們要想的是除了目前現行的機制以外如何全面性的下架保護我們的消費者做的比應該做的還要更多所以請道歉下台負責捕破網 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2948.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2961.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
要趕緊的給我們國人一個食品安全的交代不要這一次就跟之前做的不一樣該怎麼做怎麼做還要做的更多更好否則請你抱歉下台負責補破網好 謝謝徐小新委員現在請登記第三位羅廷維委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2980.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3000.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
道歉下台負責補破網有多重要我們現階段如果立法修的再好一個不願意負責一個態度就是雙標的一個政府到底我們法案能夠修的多好他就是不處理不面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3002.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3014.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
狂逃避我們現在看到衛福部他絕對不是螺絲鬆了是整個癱瘓了我們要求現在不只是賴清德應該要道歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3015.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3042.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
卓榮泰更應該要下台我們要告訴大家現在衛福部是如此之癱瘓到底有多誇張一開始不用公佈名單現在後來第二層名單公佈了一開始說20%的含量不用下架我想問大家毒油摻了20%稀釋20%我管你是怎麼樣他還是毒油今天我試問衛福部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3044.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3072.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這一瓶水裡面摻了20%的洗腳水請你喝下去80%的RO醇精逆滲透20%的洗腳水你要喝嗎這樣子的東西不會讓你致癌但你敢喝嗎更何況是今天有致癌物的相關成分稀釋20%含量你告訴我說放在裡面國人能夠接受抱歉我不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3074.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3097.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我相信所有的國人也都不能夠接受因為超標就是超標不該留在貨架的讓不知情的民眾去買而我們關心的是教育現場現在到底有多少去影響到我們的孩子作為父母親我們對不起我們的孩子因為我們沒辦法為他把關孩子到底吃什麼是安全過去民進黨告訴我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3102.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3130.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
零檢出現在民進黨告訴我們零檢出不科學更誇張的是現在台中要去查場衛福部公然在媒體上面說不知道去幹嘛不用去查連最後一絲保護民眾的心都沒有無心施政有心就只會做政治的服選 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3131.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3147.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我想癱瘓的政策一日速變我們看到食安武含整個就是環環斷裂第一環源頭管控高風險的黃豆一路放行第二環我們重建生產的管理壓在業者自主檢驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3148.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3171.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
政府無能第三環加長市場的查驗我們毒油流通的是數月抓到的是民間公司通報不是政府第四環我們加重生產者的責任但是業者知情通報19天不報中央毫無察覺最後一環 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3172.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3186.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我們全民監督的食安名單不公佈地圖不公開資訊就是蓋牌食安五環環環斷裂我們看到民進黨執政到現在前有蘇丹紅還有問題雞蛋現在還有問題自然有這就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3193.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3213.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
現階段的行政院所帶領的團隊所以院長下台我們今天一定會全力的為民監督我們一定會全力的追蹤不容許你們任何的蓋牌不容許你們任何的推脫好 謝謝羅天鵝委員現在請登記第十位黃建豪委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3222.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3245.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
好 主席各位委員各位官員各位同仁大家早安為什麼要持續發言今天我們要看到的理論上應該是衛福部跟各單位的檢討報告確實廠商非常的可惡延遲通報但是我們在今天這份報告裡面看到什麼衛福部跟大家講說我們在7月1號7月3號4號5號6號7號 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3248.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3261.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我都有發布新聞稿跟大報告進度然後我們在7月3號5號7號有開記者會來說明政策狀況但是只有今天交出來的報告短短的侯惠姐剛剛很客氣說4頁其實就3頁而已啊各位媒體朋友寫的字數把這134567這裡的新聞報告全部結錄出來都比這本還厚 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3273.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3298.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
結果這本報告裡面短短幾個字輕輕鬆帶過部長你跟我說廠商可惡所以你罰1.65億這個沒問題啊問題在哪裡今天要開這個報告現在開這個檢討就是因為你們從7月1號到昨天7月7號到可能等一下7月8號出來的政策一變再變很多人剛剛提到了一開始說不用下架再來改20% |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3301.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3326.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
再來全數下架到底誰做的決定到底哪一位專家告訴你說發生毒油風暴你不用下架還可以訂出20%的標準然後再改變成昨天終於宣布要全面下架如果你今天7月1號你就宣布全面下架的話我跟部長講啊今天不會有這場報告了沒事情沒有你的事情你就依法行政該裁罰該裁罰該懲處就懲處沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3329.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3342.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
報告裡面還寫你們7月1號還敢寫說7月1號你們會同台中市政府去查處業者食品的流向那又是誰在新聞上講說連看都不用看 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3344.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3369.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
十二月風暴發生第一時間政府就應該去查場啊政府就應該進駐啊去了解現場作業哪裡出問題結果我們的官員公開的說不用去看連看都不用看那你沒去看你怎麼知道呢這次就是因為你沒有去看啊你相信自主通報啊結果發生這麼大的問題延遲至少19天然後整個政府才發現全民才發現這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3371.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3398.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
今天報告最後又講說要加強強化自主檢驗制度都已經發生這麼大的事情了你還在跟我說你要強化自主檢驗制度今天就是自主檢驗制度失效啊才有這個問題啊那如果你要繼續相信這些廠商繼續相信業者的良心那很快可能很快又有下一次的食安逢發生所以今天我們在這邊要求的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3400.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3417.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
整個政府部門應該要負責整個政府部門要有人出來道歉整個政府部門一定要有人下台做不好就換掉是你們說的做不好就下台啦好謝謝黃建豪委員現在請登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3429.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3430.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
逐游骇台 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3452.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3454.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
獨遊害台 院長下台 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3485.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3495.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
今天我們代表全國民眾把這個象徵DAP只回收回收1%多的毒油送給衛福部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3532.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3535.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
好,來吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3539.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3556.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
獨遊害台 獨遊害台院長下台 院長下台獨遊害台 獨遊害台院長下台 院長下台獨遊害台 獨遊害台院長下台 院長下台 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3574.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3588.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
現在請登記第五位陳金輝委員現在請登記第六位邱惠璐委員簽署了 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3593.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3606.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
主席還有各位委員各位政府部門的同仁大家好那今天站在這個位置呢非常的痛心疾首呢因為呢這個政府完全罔顧人民的食安跟罔顧人民的健康我們過去10天看過來呢覺得政府的螺絲完全掉滿地呢完全掉滿地的螺絲當中我們看到民眾的無奈民眾的悲哀 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3619.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3621.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
民眾要被迫吞20%劣質油的風險我們的主管機關讓我們可以喝20%的自來油這樣的主管機關請問沒有下台的可能性嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3635.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3639.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
完全有下台的可能性我們必須用媒體的檢驗在野黨的監督民眾的炮轟把這樣無能的政府轟下台7月3號的記者會公佈獨油的總量有1300噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3652.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3670.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
但是呢追蹤回來的只有17噸不到1%請問99%的獨有現在流向何方請問政府有掌握嗎是全都跑到我們民眾的肚子傷害到我們民眾的健康了嗎請政府給我們一個說法與此同時我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3672.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3695.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
食藥署還說廠商的利益也要維護廠商也是受害者你維護廠商的利益之餘請問一下民眾的健康權你至於何地7月4號發現民怨四起亡羊補牢說沒有問題有些產品可以讓他預防性下降但有些產品呢只能夠自主管理自主揭示而這一條標準呢就是讓我們消掉大牙的20%的含量 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3700.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3718.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
作為標準如果低於20%民眾就可以吞下肚如果高於20%才需要預防性下降再問一次請問你把民眾的健康置於何處如果加工產品20%的毒油可以吃下肚那麼我們請總統卓榮泰還有石崇良部長示範喝給我們看7月4號與此同時叫我們喝下20%含量的毒油我們的石崇良部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3729.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3746.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
還打算要去輔選如果不是民怨高漲他會停止輔選的行程嗎恐怕早就已經搭上這部輔選列車全台跑透透去輔選了7月5號知道紙包不住火雪球越滾越大所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3747.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3765.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
不得不公佈257家業者的名單政府心心念念呵護的名單終於公佈了但是250家恐怕只是冰山之一角受不了壓力隔天7月6號又再公佈360家業者的名單然後總統出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3768.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3794.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
護航總統出來護航說什麼呢該下台的該停產的就停產該下架的就下架該預防性下架的就預防性下架該救責的就救責請問一下請問一下為什麼我說是護航因為他沒有說該下台的就下台我們今天站在這個位置痛心疾首我們要這些無能的政府我們要指使食品安全的衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3795.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3817.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
食藥署署長負起責任 乃至於院長我們都希望他能夠負起政治責任今天我們在這邊沉痛的呼籲我們民眾要發出我們的聲音對這個政府喊出我們拒絕有毒的食安 以上說明 謝謝好 謝謝協會的委員登記程序發言完畢 現在休息十分鐘休息後繼續開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3831.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3841.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
副長回應副長請回應副長要不要道歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3864.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3879.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
已經有先例 已經有先例在十二年前 當初的總統憲毅道歉 直接去下台憲毅有責任 民主政治就是責任政治那請問現在呢 事情已經過了七天了 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3892.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3900.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
四月份開業所以你被找去到四月份你到那邊發時間一天發生之後然後我們再看他的日期阿高你覺得這樣國人可以去政治治安嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3914.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3917.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
說烤肉 不能嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3936.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3947.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
第一天以後我們會根據160個國家會議決定未來的時間線 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3965.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3971.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
下架也是瘦瘦的四類,我們要選擇第八類,就是剛才說的那個下架原則都是最壞的 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3978.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3995.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
昨天是誰決定 昨天是幾個人決定之前說不要下架 然後百分之二十以內不用下架然後昨天又突然說 全部都要下架你看反反覆覆 這些決策過程我們需要知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4004.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4010.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
一開始要跟進,結果他昨天跟進什麼啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4025.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4043.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
現在檢調都已經是介入了為什麼昨天還要出來洗地為什麼昨天還要洗地啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4052.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4074.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
現在代表民眾在詢問你 要瞭解真情啊 我也很虛有人要問他願意我講什麼 人與健康最重要過去民進黨的統治的邏輯都很重要要整理一把人類行政到後面我們現在拖多久 那為什麼一遍再遍 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4077.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4105.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
你現在不知道民眾爬到哪裡所有的業者也爬到哪裡所有的人都在恐慌今天早上三四的早餐都不吃豆油了今天早上公佈了我們一直不斷地呼籲國人不斷地在抗議你才公佈的你還只是不願意公佈的你跟醫師有什麼看法呢你跟醫師有什麼看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4106.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4120.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
有一個不責任的心理要怎麼去進步到我們好好的把政策完善 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4133.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4149.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
你又不要質詢,你在這幹嘛?你又不要質詢,你在這幹嘛?你又不要質詢,你在這幹嘛?你又不要質詢,你在這幹嘛?你又不要質詢,你在這幹嘛? |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4152.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4157.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
以前民進黨民憲說現在過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4193.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4195.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
委員的質詢的機會是不是就沒有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4209.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4219.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
还有三分钟,快了,前面有再继续,快了对不起,开放出来这种时间 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4223.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4227.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
現在休息時間還沒到 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4250.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4257.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
現在委員提案有臨時動議請問委員會我們是否現在先處理沒有意見的話我們就現在處理臨時提案臨時提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4265.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4265.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
現在宣讀提案內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4291.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4318.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
民意實為天 賴政府卻以選舉為天國人只見官員忙著輔選執政黨候選人卻對食安問題輕率以對國家的食安防線居然要靠民間廠商的良心來守護賴總統對此表明 該究責就究責 絕不寬待原此 建請社會福利及衛生環境委員會作成決議要求行政院長 衛生福利部部長與食藥署署長除向國人道歉外自應下台以示負責 相關官員亦應一併追究其責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4321.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4341.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
提案委員蘇清泉、邱振軍、王玉敏、盧憲一、圖權己、陳金輝、廖偉翔、邱慧如、徐巧欣、林沛翔、徐宇貞、王宏威、黃建豪、羅廷偉、黃建斌、張家俊、葛如君、陳昭芝宣讀完畢請問有異議現在進行表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4346.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4374.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我們現在進行表決 採用舉手表決表決權先清點在場出席的元素表決是否會再講一下表決是否會再講一下表決是否會再講一下表決是否會再講一下表決是否會再講一下表決是否會再講一下表決是否會再講一下表決是否會再講一下表決是否會再講一下表決是否會再講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4375.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4378.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
今天會議採取點名表決有意義那採取點名表決有自信一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4392.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4400.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
請問王一鳴有沒有贊成或反對請問王一鳴有沒有贊成或反對贊成提案陳金輝委員陳金輝主席今天有那個資深的未還委員對程序有異議請問現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4436.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4438.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
現在已經進行到點名表決的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4457.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4474.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我先講第一層那我想問主席第一層先解決的是到底能不能提案剛才我們剛才是我們剛才是有問是否現在先處理沒有意見的話我們現在處理然後就沒有人提出異議啊反正沒有關係那我們就沒有關係那我們現在補充這一層 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4476.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4488.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
好 沒關係那我們就現在先處理是否先處理這個離時動議的這個表決可以嗎好 那就贊成現在處理的舉手現在贊成現在處理離時動議的請舉手 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4515.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4518.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
反對的請舉手好 贊成者多數 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4534.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4536.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
反對者4位 贊成者7位我們現在處理理所動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4542.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4568.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
那我們就繼續處理那現在請從陳金輝委員贊成或反對林玉琴委員廖維祥委員林淑芬委員邱惠惠委員邱振軍委員黃秀芳委員蘇清泉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4571.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4571.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
現在繼續進行請 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4602.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4629.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
接下來請衛生福利部時務長報告並就法案並案說明時間10分鐘主席跟各位委員今天在藉由這個衛環委員會的第18次全體委員會議來向委員跟我們國人報告有關於近期 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4631.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4651.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
這個中聯大豆油那麼超標事件的處理情形那麼首先呢那麼本部是在115年的6月30號那麼接獲到中聯的這個通報那麼他的大豆沙拉油的產品批號315 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4655.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4678.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
1150404製造日期為115年4月4號在檢驗的時候呢驗出VAP就是本田皮8.1ppb那麼超出我們的限量標準而該批大豆油分別出貨給泰山福茂跟福壽那麼三家公司那麼共計約1300噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4680.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4700.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那麼本部食藥署在6月30號接受到這樣的通報之後立即就啟動了應變機制首先先會同台中市政府那麼進行中聯跟三家泰山福茂福壽三家業者那麼清查油品流向 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4701.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4726.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那麼中聯公司要求他在7月1號起停止所有大豆沙拉油的製造跟出貨那麼待原因釐清及所有的流程確認安全無虞之後才可恢復作業第二 啟動商品的下架在7月2號就請所有各地 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4728.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4754.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
衛生局那麼依據106年由這個食品風險之役委員會討論過所公告的食品違規產品下架回收封存銷毀階層之處理原則督導業者在7月3日中午12點以前完成第一層涉案商品的下架回收 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4756.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4781.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那麼其次在7月4號那麼召開專家會議那麼就106年的下架原則進行一些討論那麼針對本次的案件那麼提出那麼對於原型油以及含量超過20%的加工食品也就是第二層的食品也應該在7月 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4785.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4809.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
7日5月之前那麼全部要下架 預防性的下架那麼在於昨日7月7日宣布那麼考量到在衛生局地方上執行上那麼以及國人的食安為最高考量情形之下那麼在宣布所有 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4810.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4821.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
涉及到該產品的加工食品要在7月8日、5月24日之前完成所有預防下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4822.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4850.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那麼至於在對國人說明的部分那麼食藥署分別在7月1號3號4號5號6號7號都透過官方的網站那麼同時也在7月3號6號7號那麼分別召開記者會主動的說明這個案子的所有的查處進度以及所有涉及到的產品下架的回收情形以及所有相關的風險評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4852.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4874.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那麼到目前昨日我們已經公布360家業者的資訊共涉及252項的產品那麼都已經在食藥署的中聯油脂案專區裡面未來也會每日的更新最新的訊息來維護民眾的知情的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4874.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4896.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那麼此外那麼為檢討本次的這個事件的原因那麼食藥署在7月4號就召開了專家會議也邀集相關的食品工協會7月6日再召開煉油廠的相關會議檢討本案的發生原因跟改善措施那麼同時強化在 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4898.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4922.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
該廠所有過去從4月到6月底間所有各批的樣本重新檢驗同時對於現有在製造中的其他煉油廠強化製程的管控跟從原料到產品的檢驗那麼來確保那麼目前在市面上那麼製造 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4925.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4944.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
販售的油品的安全性另外也督促所有的衛生局強化後市場的檢驗來強化在市面上販售油品的安全性確保國人的使用安全那麼對於本案那麼除了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4947.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4964.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
釐清所有的污染來源跟製程問題之外那麼我們也在檢討對於未來的從黃豆原料的驗收管理還有脫臭製程萃取溶劑品質等關鍵製程加強節點的 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4969.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4986.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
檢驗還有抽樣的檢驗及頻率並且提高重要的管制點的自主檢驗頻率同時會要求這個業者擴大流量及相關批次檢驗的送驗包含自主檢驗跟外部 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4987.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5017.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
的這個送檢管控它的這個品質那麼最後呢那麼對於所有的食品安全的風險跟相關的行政措施我們也提高相關的這個後市場的監測頻率跟相關行政指導的檢討那麼務必提升所有的風險管理層級跟預防處置措施來兼顧食品安全跟民眾的知情權益那麼至於今日上有 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5018.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5037.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
委員提出相關的食品安全衛生管理修正草案那麼共有這個10條的條文那麼針對以上的提案內容那麼我們延續的意見那麼已經在書面報告裡面再請各位委員指教 以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5043.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5064.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
現在開始詢問 做以下宣告有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄康登公報本會委員質詢時間列加2分鐘 列席委員施加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記 委員如果書面質詢請於上會前提出預期不受理暫定11點休息10分鐘現在請登記第二委員陳金輝委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5073.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5101.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
謝謝主席謝謝主席謝謝全國國人還有委員官員一同關心我們現在食安風暴的問題首先我們先播放一段影片還痛批屏東縣政府從上到下我們的執政黨從行政團隊到立法院黨團一手遮天棄人民的安全食品的安全與不顧人民的健康棄之如必喜 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5103.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5132.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
到了人審共分的地步啊誇張到這種地步啊我們在這裡必須要嚴正的再次提出土法不足以治險沒有錯法要修但如果我們在這個會期再努力的把所謂食安相關的法律做修正之後我們的政府依然包庇這些黑心的廠商我們的政府依然毫無作為法律的再嚴格有用嗎法會自己把食品安全管理好嗎民進黨在這裡必須要提出嚴正的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5134.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5161.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
不是一個外務部部長下來台灣的食品安全就可以做好食品安全是跨部會的我們現在就有食安的匯報是行政院層級的江院長你有沒有感覺到對台灣人民有一絲的愧疚你有沒有感覺到你的行政團隊倒行逆施已經到人神共憤的地步了我們在這裡必須要求 江議員這個時間點我看是你該下台的時候了 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5162.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5175.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
以前民進黨是用這麼高的標準在要求政府的剛剛沒有聽到任何一句道歉你也覺得你沒有做不對的地方在這邊我想問每個人都知道有1300公噸的油大量流入全台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5183.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5204.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
昨天你的記者會說回收43公噸跟1300公噸來比誰看得下去你講得出來你未來目標想回收幾%嗎你講得出來你現在已經預測幾公噸已經吃到台灣人的肚子裡嗎 請回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5205.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5218.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
跟委員說明這件事情呢那麼因為延遲通報所以造成我們無法及時的介入所以對於這個延遲通報所造成的這麼大的損失我們一定給予重罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5219.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5234.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
聽起來就是你把責任推給延遲通報這個5月13號就已經驗出有問題但是遲至6月30號才通知主管機關所以這個延遲的通報造成我們沒有足夠的時間去回收這些有問題的郵件我們應該要 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5239.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5255.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
身為衛福部的官員關心全國人民健康的官員你是不是應該告訴我們就你們現在手上掌握的資訊已經幾噸其實追不回來了幾公噸已經吃到大家的肚子裡面了這你總要知道吧因為你有統計啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5256.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5272.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
你要統計啊你要跟大家講啊你跟大家講有幾公噸你覺得回收不回來了所以你的目標是從現在的43公噸收到多少公噸是還沒有被吃進去的這個總是你可以回答的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5273.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5295.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
只要是還沒有出去的油品都已經暫時停止了這個沒有問題這個3%而已啊沒有做成產品的部分都是3%而已對嗎我剛剛是在強調的就是因為這個延遲通報而造成我們沒有辦法及時去回收你回答不出來你現在回答不出來幾公噸已經吃到人民的肚子裡了 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5296.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5302.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
賴清德7月6號針對獨游回應說該下架就下架該就責就就責看起來你現在覺得你就責完業者官員都沒有錯這幾個官員都沒有錯這個官員裡面有要去服選的啦有去跟立委審柏洋報告進度的啦不跟國人報告跟立委審柏洋報告進度有夠奇怪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5324.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5338.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
然後賴清德說該究責就究責所以現在是沒有要究責自己的意思啊是不是是不是沒有要究責自己的意思了相關的責任在我們所有釐清署這個事件之後我們自然也會檢討我告訴你我先唸幾段話給你聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5340.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5369.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
這是一個非常有名的學者他講過的話他說黑心有一連串黑心事件爆發不但使國人對政府食品失去信心也會使我國美食的商域重挫食安事件仍不斷爆發黑心食品未曾減少反而製造加工更趨黑心顯示我國食品安全行政完全失靈傳統法制執行陷入困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5371.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5386.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
講到說核心要透過風險評估的制度有關風險管理著墨不多風險溝通更是付之缺乳食品安全未能有效管制食安事件爆發後更是主管機關手忙腳亂消費者人心惶惶然後呢採取公司協力還有自主規範的手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5396.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5396.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
想要出案嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5426.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5447.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
這個我不清楚給大家看一下封面這篇2016年江志剛學者江志剛教授寫的我國食品安全管制及法治之研究我們來看一下他這篇是在講什麼他這篇就在講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5449.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5471.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
食安的風險管理不足2016年就講了風險溝通缺席大家人心惶惶政府手忙腳亂自主規制便卸責業者自主管理略無監督恐成政府推責的藉口我以為啊他穿越了欸我以為他2016年學者穿越來2026年欸現在他在檢討署長江志剛欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5479.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5483.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
這樣子你都覺得你沒有問題你2016你就點出了每一樣東西你都犯了你覺得勒還是你要去改你的論文你的研究這邊要回答嗎沒錯所以你們都沒錯你2016年那個時候講政府講成這樣子啊你這個你這所有的東西每一樣都發生啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5505.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5515.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
跟委員說明在2014年的油品事件之後那麼就成立了有一個這個食品風險的執議會 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5518.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5534.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
透過這個諮議會就訂出了這個風險評估諮議會就訂出了這個食品違規事件的下架的階層處理原則就是把它依照風險分析一共分成十類 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5535.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5540.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
你10年前檢討政府的東西現在一樣一樣的發生然後你還把責任歸咎給廠商你剛剛的意思就是說他們沒有自主通報你2016年就告訴大家說業者自主通報就會變成政府推責的藉口你現在就是活生生的在呈現你當時論文的樣子我們來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5563.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5580.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
這邊有一個很大的窗口啊從5月13到6月305月13就有人發現油有問題6月30中聯才通報給你們我想知道你有沒有掌握到6月15有這些油品廠商的秘密會議這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5581.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5600.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
有掌握到嗎這個是事後調查的時候那麼才發現6月30之後就是事件發生就是7月1號我們開始進行相關的調查事件的時候才了解到其實這個內部他們在6月15號就已經知情所以我們才會給予重罰所以他們討論了什麼你要講嗎我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5605.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5621.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
快速的 確確內容我沒有辦法但是我們知道他已經知道在6月10號以及10號由我們南橋跟福壽講他的有有異常的狀況在有應該是有這個內容在裡面 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5623.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5640.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
所以啦你的論文不就在檢討希望不要發生5月13到6月30一千多噸的油流入市面流到老百姓的肚子裡面你就是在檢討這件事啊結果你自己做不到不是嗎不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5644.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5663.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
我問你5月13根據你們的那個食安法有任何人有任何中央政府地方政府有收到通報嗎因為根據食安法認為有危害健康之魚的時候應該要主動停止製造加工並且通報給主管機關有人通報嗎就是因為沒有通報所以我們才會開罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5669.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5678.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那我們請2016年的教授來當署長也沒有用啊他2016年就知道這些問題了他現在也做不了什麼嗎不是嗎看起來不是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5681.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5706.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
這個業者不能完全沒有責任啊那你呢 你的責任呢我這才會訂出這個三段的民管一個是第一個一定要有自主的你有沒有責任呢你有沒有責任呢你有沒有責任嘛你有沒有責任你有沒有責任我們的責任呢我們等到整個事件那麼調查清楚處理完畢的時候我們自己就會檢討大概多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5710.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5733.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我們現在還在進行當中因為從這個4月到6月底那麼我們要他停止製造中間的所有的各批次的樣本我們現在都在送驗所以我們還會繼續的去追蹤這些檢驗的結果跟可能涉及到的我聽懂了你剛剛的意思是說你把事情都做完你才會檢討自己你就會檢討自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5735.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5756.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我們現在最重要的是趕快把這個事件確認讓國人安心這個是我們現在最重要要做的其他的事情是其次很好啊那我們來看看你怎麼浪費我們國人的時間我看一下你的時間序啊7月3號不公佈名單大家人心惶惶不知道吃到的東西有沒有受害 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5756.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5765.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
7月4號呢公布但是跟大家說20%以上下架20%以下自主管理自己揭露但是可以用 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5767 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5792.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
你覺得這個符合人性嗎我不知道你怎麼定出來等一下我們再慢慢講7月4號還好你聽我的勸說你沒有去服選不然呢所有的地方政府第一線機場的人在處理這些油品的時候你還在服選喔7月5號你突然說不下架我也覺得怪怪的這就好笑了7月5號你都覺得怪怪了你7月5號覺得怪怪的不趕快說全面下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5793.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5815.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
拖到7月7號的下午4點昨天下午4點才說全面下架7月6號賴清德生氣了他說該就責就就責雖然你覺得你不用就責剛從頭到尾聽下來你就覺得不用就責還有一點喔從你不公佈名單到你現在決定全面下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5816.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5843.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
居然官員江志剛署長的Priority輕重緩急分不清楚你為什麼要跟沈伯陽開會請問你跟沈伯陽開會報告了什麼他可以他可以禁忌你什麼事情嗎你不是應該要跟全國人民開會嗎一個部長很知道自己的分寸知道自己不要去服選一個署長跟特定的密委開會還做成新聞當宣傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5846.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5873.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
你到底知不知道你現在是要做什麼事才是當務之急啊署長你要回答嗎我們所有的資訊都會在第一時間公開都會向公眾來說明所以在這過去每日的新聞稿之後我們已經連續開了幾天的記者會都是希望讓國人清楚我們目前的處理的進度跟所有我們所掌握的確切的資訊都會讓國人清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5875.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5875.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
那你跟綠圍報告幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5878.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5906.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
就像委員如果邀請任何我們不會邀請你因為我們知道我們不會邀請你是因為我們知道現在你最應該報告的是全國人民而我們不會用這個立法委員的時間你要處理的是全國人民的健康跟安全還有你下架的流程政策等等的你們的輕重緩急完全搞不清楚還被人家做成照片來宣傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5907.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5931.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我想所有的委員都是為民眾來關心所以要求我們說明我們都會說明好那我問你全面下架比較重要還是跟綠委說明比較重要你全面下架的時間還是比綠委說明還後面欸比輔選還後面欸我們所有的進度都不會因此而停頓都不斷的在進行中 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5933.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5953.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
昨天更誇張2點一下說要罰錢4點全國人都看直播發現說署長根本不知道你會出現在記者會署長嚇一跳看到部長走進來你要解釋一下嗎如果中央政府現在不太同調我看你們內部也不同調 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5954.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5967.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
如果你要宣布罰錢你就兩個一起宣布嘛怎麼會有一個記者會署長不知道你會到到了以後嚇一跳站起來趕快讓位子給你還要弄名牌你們到底裡面內部有什麼問題我們本來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5970.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5985.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
這個我的行程那個時候是在為我們的護理人員我們有一個頒獎就是為了要這個彰顯這個護理的價值所以昨天的下午我們有一個頒獎典禮所以我在台大國際會議中心在做這個護理人員100的這個表揚 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5989.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5999.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那但是我覺得這個事情的需要跟國人講得更清楚所以我才縮短了跟護理人員的這個那你也可以把江組長拉到兩點一起講啊你也可以把江組長拉到兩點一起講最奇怪的就是你兩點講一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6007.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6030.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
四點還要講一次四點一般基層公務員都要下班了他們前面都在處理你二十趴上二十趴下這兩點是因為我參加那個護理人員的表揚大會記者的堵麥我才先講那但是我當時候也特別提到四點的時候呢會由食藥署的記者會來正式跟大家說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6031.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6047.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
你也可以試點跟署長一起講啊因為我之前本來有那個活動所以我沒有辦法這個記者會後來我覺得這個需要來把它講清楚所以我才會那你去之前也可以讓署長知道署長是看到你才知道沒有沒有我是臨時 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6049.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6074.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
這個縮短這個行程那麼趕到這個記者會了所以當然這個署長事前我是跟他講我有活動沒有辦法那個記者會還是按照原本沒有關係你昨天兩點宣布一件事四點宣布一件事你就是在人家公務員下班前累死大家而已再來也會很多人問你你要不要快速的講如果你要再講106年的話我們是就不想再聽了你還是要講106年嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6077.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6095.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
現在有問題的東西放進去放進去做成產品106年的那個是當時候所訂的是根據歷往的這個食安事件訂出了一個下架處理原則所以我們第一刻呢是依照過去所訂下來對外發布的所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6096.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6112.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
實要屬依法行政那但是因為這個事件呢是第一次發生有驗出有品的這個本便筆所以呢我們才在7月4號再召開專家會議大家就之前的這個下架原則再進行討論依據這個事件的風險性 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6116.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6131.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
再去討論那個下架原裝是不是應該做調整然後才進出這個二十分之五這個很基本的道理一個已經不合格的東西原料只要放到產品裡面比例很少就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6132.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6156.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
人民聽到的只有這樣子啊那你訂標準幹嘛你訂標準幹嘛你乾脆把標準訂得寬寬的後面再跟大家說擠拍一下就可以吃你訂標準幹嘛還有你在公佈20%上下的時候你也沒有說這是不是一體適用嬰幼兒 孕婦 脆弱族群 老人 長者你要不要現在講你訂的時候你有討論嗎你有討論這些脆弱族群嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6161.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6174.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
這個定的時候呢是根據這個案件在那個專家7月4號的專家會議大家一起去討論出來根據科學的證據跟推論所定出來我剛問這麼簡單的問題我說請問你這個標準的時候適用所有的脆弱族群嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6181.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6192.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我只有講這樣子欸你還在講106年啊不是106我講的是7月4號我沒有適用所有的族群我只要告訴你那天開會的結論這個20%上下到底有沒有適用嬰幼兒孕婦老人就好了有沒有適用當時候的討論就是這個結論所以適用大家嗎適用全部人嗎全部人包括孕婦 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6209.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6235.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
你講的是106年的還是7月4號的7月4號的就是這個結論適用全部人全部人都可以好那我們知道了你就是定一個標準是適用全部人而且大家其實也聽不太下去這個是一個下架的標準這個案例我們106年有那個原則然後我們發現這個事件之後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6236.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6260.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那你只要告訴我萬一未來又發生這樣子的食安風暴你還會再找這種幾趴的事情定標準叫我們有一些上架有一些下架嗎你會不會因為每一類當時候我們訂出的這個這個一共有十類十類的下架原則是不一樣的所以是根據它是屬於哪一類的所以你的意思是說你以後還會再用這個原則你的意思是說你以後還要再用這個原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6265.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6281.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我們事後會再做整個全盤性七月四號先針對這個事件這個事件完之後我們會再做全面性的對那個原則性要不要再去做更清楚的沒關係我們看一下你本來要去服選的那個日期啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6282.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6293.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
台北市已經宣布一律下架 連醬料都停用台中全部停用大家無所適從 大家不知道怎麼去算你的20%20%以上 20%以下你到7月7號才突然大轉彎地方已經反應給你喔 有困難喔 有困難喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6302.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6323.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
中央為什麼經過了這麼多天才跟上你們不承認你從7月4號到7月7號這幾天有錯誤嗎昨天網路上很多人在講喔你們放出來的這個list裡面有超商的飯糰還有超商的很多食品從7月4號到7月7號大家已經吃到肚子裡面了大家已經吃到肚子裡面了 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6328.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6347.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
剛剛提到的那個都是即食品那個都是即食品所以那個都不會留到什麼七月之後還會有都不會啦有冷凍的冷凍的可以放很久有冷凍解凍吃的冷凍微波吃的我們據我們的調查是沒有他沒有這些貨存在那個是即食品 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6349.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6371.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
你們的調查報告我們再跟你要然後我們會有這個品項有這個品項出來之後才有辦法去公佈嘛所以你的意思我們是一直努力的在把這個品項那我聽懂啦 衛福部長現在告訴大家7月4號他叫大家20%以上下架到7月7號全面下架沒有害到任何人 都沒有人誤吃你的意思就這樣不是嗎應該是這樣講我們是根據專家的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6376.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6389.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
會議的結論去做出這個建議這個下架的原則的建議但是我們後面呢考慮到在實務執行面上的問題衛生局的反應之後所以我們才在進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6391.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6396.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
專家的建議是對的但是我們在食物的執行上我告訴你什麼人吃到了你沒有下架醬料很多地方醬料都沒有下架7月4號到7月7號已經有很多人吃掉醬料做出來的產品了 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6409.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6433.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
你還覺得沒有人受害你還覺得你沒有任何錯誤不是 我跟委員說明就是說7月4號的專家會議討論出來的那個是根據科學證據風險提出的建議那我們按照這樣執行但是後面是因為衛生局在反映它的執行上的難度 複雜性所以我們才在行政上去擴大 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6434.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6460.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
所以你到底要不要承認你的錯誤嘛第一你的錯誤就是讓基層的公寓人員忙翻天一改再改這個第一個錯第二個錯你沒有下架的東西早就已經做成有的時候做醬料做的東西很多啊吃下去了專家會議所提到的這些建議呢又要推給專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6463.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6489.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
剛剛推給業主現在推給專家專家的報告等一下給你2016年就是專家寫的報告這個就是最專家的寫的報告啦沒關係等一下應該還有很多委員想要問你現在我看網路上很多人想知道全面下架他們要怎麼解套你快速的回答我就好了有的已經用你沒有下架的醬料做的東西要不要下架要怎麼執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6493.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6512.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
然後第二個這175項你這7月4號到7月7號本來不用下架現在才下的風險誰負責成本誰負責有一些大賣場他跟我們反映啊7月4號就開始下架20%以上的現在又做第二次累得半死成本誰吸收 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6514.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6544.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
最後民眾根本分不清楚哪一些中標要怎麼退貨有一個阿嬤她說她搞不清楚這個油是不是8月4號做出來不是8月4號不是那個時間點做出來的可是你有沒有去驗這個中聯之前的油有沒有問題她可能買到之前的但是她也蠻擔心的你也沒有出來跟大家講啊你現在簡單的講你要怎麼執行你要怎麼退貨你要怎麼統一查詢平台一次講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6545.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6561.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
4月8號以前的你有沒有驗第一個從4月到6月底的我們現在正在檢驗因為這個是最有可能那4月以前的勒這個是最有可能還在市面上流通的所以我們這是第一批的查驗至於4月以前的因為他的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6564.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6580.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
這個之前我們就都在查他的檢驗的紀錄所以我們先從4月之後的先清查你查他自己的檢驗紀錄你不是去查他喔不是不是 查他的樣本他有樣本我們把樣本抽出來那你4月8號以前的拿了沒4月8號以前樣本拿了沒 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6584.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6609.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
因為他的保存的問題啊所以我們先從因為這一些是還有可能在其他都已經現在這個是還有可能在市面上的要先優先要把現在這個先處理掉那更早以前的有些東西已經沒有在市面上了我們先從還可能在市面上的先優先那還可能在市面上的阿公阿嬤關心啊對如果不是4月8號到4月10號他可不可以退貨他心中很擔心可不可以退貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6610.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6623.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
當然查到了哪一批有問題所以你的意思是說查到沒問題就叫他繼續用查到有問題我們就會宣佈宣佈之後那一批就是大家就按照這個退貨原則去退 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6623.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6648.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
我希望你的平台可以更公開透明現在你就是叫大家問業者看地方政府的宣布你什麼時候要把它透明我們的資訊有一個專區可以查我知道在會計隊的食藥署的下面超難找的你自己覺得難不難找現在每個人都在關心這件事你把它放在下層又下層我們在首頁在食藥署的首頁食藥署的首頁就可以看得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6650.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6658.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
好 這些問題 我再用書面詢問你 也希望你盡快回覆我 謝謝 好 沒有問題 謝謝好 謝謝陳建復委員的發言 現在請王立民委員質詢好 謝謝主席 我們有請部長 有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6676.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6699.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
好 王美好部長 我手上這兩個飯糰這個是今天早上還買到的富航豆漿在超商裡面的飯糰但是它赫然出現在你昨天晚上的名單當中我請問你 我買了這兩顆飯糰還可以吃嗎還可以吃嗎要看是不是那個批號有一個日期 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6700.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6727.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那我消費者你不是說全面下架嗎那到底這一款的還可不可以吃你們下架完畢了沒我問你啊這個是由地方去執行啦那我們都會讓他知道是哪一批製造日期到什麼時候那我現在我是消費者我就問你嘛我今天早上買到的這個飯糰昨天出現在你的名單當中這不會在市場上這個一定都是安全不是那一批啦所以是可以吃的對 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6728.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6733.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
完完全全安心可以吃所以你昨天晚上公佈那一波的名單那到底是什麼時候不能吃的因為裡面有非常多上班族都憤怒了這一些飯糰是他會買的便當也是他會買的但是都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6743.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6771.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
在你昨天晚上裡面中標的名單當中所以我就要問說現在請問現在超商上面所販售的你昨天所公布的這些品項通通都是合格安全的嗎啊你不是說通通都要下架因為那些油都已經沒有再用了已經都回收了嘛所以他這個做出來的都是已經安全可用那所以你們昨天公布的那一批的用意是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6771.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6792.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
那是之前因為我們把他整個產品所以你掛保證現在開始超商上面所販售的這些飯糰都是安全無虞的可以掛保證嗎那些飯糰我們後面都有加注他都已經超過已經那個是即食品所以日期都已經過了所以現在在架上的都是安全的 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6792.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6817.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
都是安全的不用再下架了那接下來我要問你喔這個泰山有新增一批超標的這個產品今天最新昨天晚上通報給你們對不對請問這一批的數量有多少然後流向到哪裡那現在我們正在跟這個彰化縣衛生局一起在調查當中到現在沒有掌握嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6819.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6839.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
平常不是都應該有做記錄嗎數量有多少目前的這個潮是哪一個潮出來已經知道了那現在在查那個批次出來的批次跟他的流向現在在查流向 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6840.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6868.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
所以一波未平一波又起看起來不只是中聯這一批的油有問題這個會不會是系統性的風險我要問你的就是現在彰化先查出來這個也是中聯的油也是中聯的油那是中聯黃豹嗎他說他只有那一批是有問題那就不止囉因為我們現在正在驗他所有的每一批那這一批是什麼時候製造的六月以後製造的嗎不是五月間製造的 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6869.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6885.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
五月間製造然後一樣沒有驗出來所以這個品管真的是非常非常的有問題嘛廠商自己自主驗都驗不出來這個才是問題是所在啊應該是這樣講就是說過去呢沒有要求到逐批檢驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6886.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6908.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
所以它是抽樣的而且半年才驗一次嘛是不是對所以這個頻率就是我們在提的現在要提高那個抽驗的比喻還有頻率還有批次啦這絕對要加嚴啊我們完全靠業者自主現在的情況就是業者不可靠啊他的自主沒有到位嘛所以才產生這一次這麼大的一個食安風暴嘛接下來我要問你的是為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6913.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6929.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
你去分這個第一層第二層如果你剛剛講的說哎呀我這個都是有道理的7月4號還專家會議那你為什麼昨天生急急忙忙跑去署長的這個記者會然後就說通通給我下架為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6929.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6951.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
因為地方政府跑在你前面啦在你中央不宣布的時候台中市政府台北市政府都已經告訴民眾說一滴油都不可以我就是全部通通下架這就是展現一種鐵腕跟決心嘛這個整個食安其實就是零容忍啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6952.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6973.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
你怎麼可以允許他的成分裡面有明明知道然後就說沒有關係因為稀釋了這個對人體這個沒有關係你7月4號的那個會議就是一個錯誤的決策接下來我要問你是卓榮泰院長他說他人家老早他就有指示了他有召開會議他說他上個禮拜五 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6975.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6991.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
有找相關部會開會但是神奇了我今天看到食安辦的報告裡面沒有這個會議沒有提到7月3號有院長召開的會議食安辦提到的陳時中政委召開的跨部會會議是7月7號 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6993.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7019.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
請問7月3號你們有參加嗎誰參加 食安辦有參加嗎 衛福部有參加嗎7月3號主要是我們跟院長報告這個事件目前的處理情形那麼以及我們會在召開專家會議有哪些部會沒有 就主要是我們執照部長喔對 執照組跟主要是我們去報告我們召開會議喔對我覺得卓院長也未免太美化自己了吧隨便找一個部長來問幾句話然後就說我有召開會議沒有沒有 那也有相關其他的有做成會議紀錄嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7021.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7033.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
開了多久這個我沒有因為是在你不敢回答因為就只是叫你去聊一聊而已嘛沒有我們去跟他報告那他知不知道當時你有告訴他第二層不用下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7034.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7059.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
我们有报告说我们的这个处理的原则不是我们的处理原则是根据106年所以他也同意啊对不对食品安全风险评估的自议会所定出来你7月3号你跟卓院长报告他也同意你这么做嘛不是所以院长有指示说应该要再考虑所以我们才会再 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7059.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7074.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
隔天就召開專家會議重新再去檢視當時候所定下的這一個處理原則是不是有需要修正的必要7月4號你們一樣不用全部下架你們開完會一樣不用全部下架因為這個專家會議討論的結果我們當然是看照這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7080.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7102.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
總統對外宣誓的原則 他還是很開心說那個第二層就沒有達到20%的 這個也不用下架他對外還是這樣子講所以你們根本就是後知後覺是地方政府跑在你們前面 你們看苗頭不對了才緊急的昨天晚上你衝到這個署長的記者會說通通都給我下架就是這樣子嘛不是 這個因為這個專家的會議是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7105.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7120.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那但是我也了解在地方執行上呢它面臨到有一些行政上它的複雜度所以我最後才決定雖然專家認為這樣是在風險上的考量是可接受的那但是在行政的執行面上 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7121.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7150.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
為了讓他能夠更迅速所以我才做這個決定你們這個就是7月4號根本就是一個錯誤的決定一開始大家對於食安是零容忍就是全面下架沒有任何的理由這樣子民眾才能安心但是你們變成一變再變一變再變然後導致到現在你還沒有辦法全部下架完成一言再言這個就是你們決策上面的一個疏失接下來我要追問的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7154.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7158.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
這1300噸的油的流向已經都百分之百掌握了嗎已經百分之百掌握了嗎都掌握了你們現在數字都兜的起來了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7167.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7184.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
因為它的油有的是變成加工食品那個就沒有辦法算頓了就是我們現在是第二層的所以所有的流向你都掌握了對 就是泰山福茂 福壽這些都掌握多少量都有了那它提供出去那你今天的報告為什麼不提出來產生的這個產品我們的項目也都 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7190.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7209.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
調查清楚之後公布在我們的網路全部公告出來包括數量包括那個流量這個第一個我要指導第二個我統計過我去調那個資料今年1到5月份我們巴西進口的黃豆總共有59.9萬噸請問這59.9萬噸有多少進入了中聯 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7219.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7237.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
中聯的進口我們有查到他的巴西豆的量多少這個詳細的數字在詳細的數字我們去確認的數字這個是非常關鍵你們還不知道美國豆一部分是巴西豆我們就來確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7238.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7255.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
你們不是說是巴西豆含水量高嗎它是有兩種它這一次的這個中聯用的油它有美國進口的它有美國的豆跟巴西的豆所以你不知道 到現在不知道這一點就是我今天要追查的 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7256.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7273.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
高達59.9萬噸的巴西黃豆我要知道它的流向到了哪裡顯然你們查了一個禮拜現在都沒有掌握流向如果這59.9萬噸你們之前對外講的因為巴西的黃豆 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7273.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7297.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
含水量高所以它的那個烘焙中間過程會產生致癌物的這個風險比較高在經濟部今天的報告裡面告訴大家說台糖用的是美國豆所以比巴西豆風險來得低如果這個假設成立的話我要追的就是那這個風險高的巴西豆流到哪裡去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7298.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7326.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
只留到中聯嗎這59.9萬噸其他的巴西豆還有哪一些留到哪裡你這個要問誰誰可以告訴我們那個流向是哪一個部會要負責這是源頭管理喔如果你們現在已經推論到巴西黃豆可能是有問題的那要去追啊這59.9萬噸到目前為止到五月份為止量這麼高跑去哪裡了只有進去中聯這一家嗎有沒有進到其他的煉油廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7328.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7343.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
或者是到其他的通路 有沒有 不知道我們主要是針對另外還有三家煉油廠去了解他們用的豆主要都是以美國豆為主有沒有混到巴西豆好像目前的了解沒有嘛 主要是你們有沒有抽煙 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7345.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7363.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
跟委員報告那關於這個巴西豆的部分呢其實在這個河川採購的時候應該有些因為他是南半球的部分所以他有季節性有有有些廠商他會去河川採購美國跟巴西的對起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7364.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7390.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那但是在這三中聯以外的三家煉油廠裡面他們的自主管理其實做的是比中聯還要來得好因為在整個製程裡面他從原料驗收到毛油產生之後他還會再去做檢驗那檢驗到最後在整個後續的脫色脫臭跟這個脫色的過程當中他就會把這樣的一個物質把它降低到最好的一個限量標準以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7390.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7405.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
所以它一樣有進巴西豆對不對只是它的製程比較好那你們有去抽驗它的這其他煉油廠它的品質嗎時間發動之後你們有沒有去抽驗進口的部分我們在邊境也是在抽驗中因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7406.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7431.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
豆子的過程它還有保存的問題所以第一個我們是從源頭在邊境就會去查驗所以邊境我們從112年1月到115年6月間那麼其實我們都在邊境有一些抽驗但是你過去的抽驗也沒有解決中聯但是因為到了製程端因為它這中間還有保存所以製程端過去你們沒有加強查驗嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7432.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7444.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
端是最重要那麼製成端在原料的部分是要驗的所以他才會有第一次他的檢驗是合格的他4月份他也有驗這一批那他驗出來是合格但是因為後面這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7446.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7474.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
變成成品的部分到下游的時候才驗出反回來驗出說它這個油有問題我們現在才回頭來檢視那它的豆子既然驗第一次又是合格但是第二次又是不合格就表示說它的這個品質混因為它有混它有混這個美國豆跟巴西豆的那這個檢驗上的抽樣採樣是不是要調整所以這個就是現在目前在調查當中的 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7475.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7492.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
我覺得我們對於那個自由的過程那個品管光靠廠商自律是不夠的這次已經告訴我們光靠廠商自律是不夠的所以我要問你的是我們政府的責任我們的他律機制未來你怎麼樣加嚴在整個從進口原料到他的製程他的產製的過程當中都應該要有政府的角色就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7501.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7506.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
他方的他綠的這個檢驗機制我覺得一定要雙管你才有可能確保這些油品的品質要不然你這個整個上游的油品一出問題之後你看你這是1300噸你現在回收率不到3%啊幾乎都已經下渡了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7519.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7539.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
我們現在是要把它三級評管要再檢討啦過去我們有三級評管一個就是他自己的自主檢驗第二個是送外部檢驗第三個是後市場檢驗所以有這三級評管那麼第一個就是他自主檢驗的部分要在哪一些節點要檢驗那麼檢驗的方式抽樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7540.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7560.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
細部規定這個是我們要求你們要有一個很完整的檢討報告今天的報告只有266個字精進作為我算過266個字這不叫精進作為這比小學生的作文那個字數還要少我剛剛講的這個品管的要求你這一個從你的進口 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7562.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7586.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
源頭還有整個製程的過程你的這個加嚴的機制改善的機制我要求這個要做成一個非常完整的報告這個我們會整個檢討完之後會把這個三級評管那麼會重新再檢討這個我要求另外一個關於通報機制失靈這件事情這個是一個很大的問題這個食安法裡面第七條第五項 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7586.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7601.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
要求食品業者你一旦發現有危害安全衛生之虞要主動停止製造而且還要通報主管機關但是這次的事件我們發現通通都沒有做到而且還隱匿偷偷開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7602.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7617.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
然後好像自己要私了自己解決這個通報機制完全失靈啊這怎麼辦這個江署長剛剛有委員說你在擔任學者的時候就有看到這個問題你擔任署長也解決不了這個業者不自主通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7618.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7622.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
這個要怎麼處理而且源頭喔這次油品的問題告訴大家什麼他源頭有問題因為他會混油他混到其他產品會有比例的問題你從市場的後端末端你的查驗是查不出來的沒有問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7633.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7650.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
因為被混掉了所以針對源頭的這邊廠商又不願意自主通報的時候請問你的機制是什麼在這件事情上面第一個呢這個自主檢驗的部分還是要強化而且頻率要增加或批次增加這個都要強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7651.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7671.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那麼自主檢驗之外呢還要有要求外部檢驗他要送外部所以這是第二層外部檢驗那用這兩個來強化那麼當然除了對於沒有誠實通報的那麼要加重處罰之外另外也要有吹哨者條款這是我們從過去幾次的慈安檢驗吹哨者條款過去也會發生過作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7675.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7700.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我建議你針對這些重大的我上次已經講過了這些重大的原物料的是最上游的這些廠商你不能放任他只有自主檢驗機制你絕對還要有第三方由政府委託貢獻力去抽驗的機制你這樣子才可以及時你的抽驗也是讓他不敢去怠惰你現在完全放任自主管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7701.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7719.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
就是沒有辦法達到這樣的一個功能業者都擔心損失的情況底下他就選擇隱匿他就選擇延遲但是始終犧牲的就是人民的健康跟委員說明因為我們現在就是開始做這樣的事情就是我們現在對另外這三家已經強化由我們食藥組的同仁去 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7720.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7738.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
去抽煙 去送煙了這未來就會變成常態機制這個不是只是個案這必須變成是一個SOP以後就會變成常態而且要變成是有法令有法則因為這個上游就是這四家主要的煉油廠這四家所以這個未來我們就會融入成常規性的外部抽煙 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7739.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7755.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
好 這個部分我要求經過這次這麼重大的這個食安事件我覺得民眾真的很恐慌那民眾對食安的標準只會越來越嚴格這一次所有的缺漏都應該要完成然後你們要寫成最完整的這個檢討報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7756.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7765.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
是今天敷衍委員會266個字的精進作為這個我們完全沒有辦法接受守護食安這個是大家責任而且中央我最後提醒喔在那個過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7772.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7797.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
在那個過程當中有地方政府他們願意多做事你們食藥署還告訴人家說不用啊幹嘛一直去那個廠商那邊檢查沒有沒有沒有我們跟中央我們跟中央都是密切在合作中央地方是密切合作的地方要願意多檢查多做事中央不可以還擺出官威說幹嘛要去中央跟地方都是緊密在合作的這一個部分如果有請改正好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7798.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7827.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
好謝謝謝謝王毓民委員的諮詢現在請廖偉祥委員諮詢謝謝主席謝謝主席有請這個石崇良部長還有江署長還有食安辦主任好請好廖委員好這一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7828.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7857.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
食安風暴非常的嚴重而且一看就知道我們食安五環完全破功尤其是只有這個寡占少數的煉油廠這麼重大的環節政府居然沒有一個好的把關機制而且在他換原料的時候居然沒有相關的要求說換原料就應該要送驗等到他驗出來安全了才可以出到市場所以這件事情完全看得出來政府行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7857.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7877.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
要負最大的責任那部長我想要先請問剛剛大家都很關心這個油品的流向問題這一次出問題的獨油啊你們都清點完了嗎回收了多少噸所有獨油的銷售流向已經加工的流向你們都完全清楚了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7878.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7901.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
這個流向都已經掌握了 那量也大概都掌握住了因為這個是比較早 這個是4月所製造的油所以現在的回收現實你們的報告現在說回收43點多噸啦其實回收率只有3.3%那就像你說的喔 剛剛從4月就開始販售了那你們6月底之前 發生也超過一個多禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7902.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7913.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
所以是不是大部分都有可能被民眾吃下肚了你們預估可以追回多少請問一個具體的數字剛剛也有委員問類似的問題但是沒有具體的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7915.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7932.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
這個追回的大概差不多就是這個噸數了所以剩下的都追不回來了因為都已經哇 那也很可怕這是1000多噸所以你也承認你現在這些就已經是確定的數字差不多就是這樣哇 那各位媒體朋友現在在市面上流通不知道掌握去哪裡的 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7933.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7946.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
還有1200多噸那個都已經下架了那你說還有多少它已經不是以油的原型的所以已經變成加工品所以加工品你沒辦法追蹤的 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7948.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7968.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
加中皮就是現在我們所花布的這些產品就是讓它預防性下降來部長我跟你說啊福茂說他賣了12噸給一個長興商行但是長興商行卻表示他根本沒有買到也沒有收到那又請問這十幾噸的致癌沙拉油流向哪裡被誰吃下去有辦法追查出來嗎有辦法還是沒辦法請問是有辦法還是沒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7973.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7988.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
這部分委員我們再確認跟委員討論所以我剛剛主要問題這是一個個案其中一個案例可是它是系統性的問題你們是追不回來的你們剛剛還說要回去確認代表你們根本就沒有辦法掌握所以我想要問加工的問題剛剛也有委員問飯糰的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7991.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8007.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
所以你們7月6號的時候是說20%以上下架後來7月7號又說全部要下架請問我想問你們這個下架的標準是依照製造日期你們宣布7月7號以後20%以下的才要下架還是以前的也都要下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8009.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8025.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
因為我們在發布的時候特別會去標註有些都已經他所使用的油製造的這個產品已經超過有效日期了所以他就沒有下架的問題舉例來講他製造日期如果我問你啊如果製造日期是7月6號的好7月6號的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8028.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8053.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
他需要在7月7號的時候下架嗎?不用不用所以現在就是說7月7號宣布以前的20%以下的還是一樣在市面上流通只有7月7號以後的製造以後的20%以下的才要不是不是嗎?不是不是嗎?我們在公布的網頁上面有寫得很清楚那我問你啊為什麼這個是這個飯糰剛剛這個域名委員要拿我看了一下他製造日起是7月6號 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8054.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8069.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
他還在加上賣所以你覺得這是OK的你剛剛又說不是我要說的不是是說我們所列出的這些有些飯糰後面會講已預有效日期所以這個在市面上不會流通所以沒有下架的問題這個沒有預有效日期 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8071.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8099.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
他現在7月6號製造他有效日期到7月9號我們的意思是說這一批用到這個問題油的已經都沒有再架上了啦所以你說現在再架上了這個是沒有這個還沒有預有效日期的都是安全的沒有預有你可不可以再講清楚一下你們的標準到底是什麼就是說他用的這個油所做出的產品現在已經在市面上不會存在了因為他已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8100.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8122.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
已經下架了 已經都是賣完 或者是已經這個飯糰 剛剛玉敏委員拿的這個飯糰它是7月6號製造 還在架上還買得到 早上才買來的吧報告委員 讓我 能不能有說明一下原來的油製造的即時的產品 已經都已經過期了或者真的是我們的民眾是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8123.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8142.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
沒有我就問一個簡單的問題所以現在的油使用在製造的油在這些的即食品上面都不是那個批次的油所以你確定現在在架上的沒有一個是在批次上的油目前我們查到的那我想要請問民眾要如何知道它是不是因為我跟你說就是我們為什麼在 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8144.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8170.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
發布這一些產品的時候啊我們很小心因為對民眾來講他要怎麼知道你所謂的批號批次然後呢全台灣這麼多的便利商店這麼多的商家你怎麼確保每一個都確定在你們的規範範圍內下架了呢你上面民眾要怎麼去查這個批號所以過去有一句有這個你們曾經說過民進黨的政策裡面說過從源頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8173.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8189.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
做起的生產履歷資訊公開透明可以隨時查閱這是來自於民進黨官網的食安五環證件可是我剛剛光問這個問題就搞得民眾不煞煞我相信在場的委員媒體朋友也搞不清楚到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8189.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8213.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
這到底要怎麼確定好 所以我再來問剛剛都說了問題由四處流竄也很難追得回來那在7月初如果先公布第二層名單就可以讓全台的小吃攤 餐廳 團善廚房跟消費者立刻停用 停食那在這關鍵的三天內有許多不知情的終端商家仍然繼續使用這批油在做烹作 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8214.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8235.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
那台北市後來也查出高達42所學校幼兒園曾經使用相關的油品所以如果提早三天公佈這些在發育期的學童跟幼兒都可能可以停止暴露在第一級的致癌物中可是第一時間你們卻選擇自我限制要業者自主改善就好等到輿論炸鍋你們才轉彎喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8236.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8259.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那還同民眾多吃了三天的致癌油我想要請問這個是到底是誰授權的沒有 跟委員說明我們第一時間點就已經公布了泰山 福茂跟福壽這些油就是現在市面上在炸的那些油那個時候就已經停用了所以第一刻時間就已經停用了我們現在第二波發布的是它的加工品 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8260.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8286.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
不是油 油都已經停用了但是他們這些消費者民眾也都還是暴露在這些一級致癌物的加工食品裡所以我想要請問今天有很多那剛剛所有這些辦團都已經是過期的來 部長我們今天有很多人在討論你當初自己也坦承說第二層油品免下架這確實有點怪怪的所以我就是要追問想要請問一下部長 昨天院長在週一發表說他上星期就召開會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8288.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8305.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
然後還有知道進度所以我真的很想要替你報區一下我想問這個到底是卓榮泰院長拍板的嗎你們竟然跟他報告了也告訴他們你的處理狀況身為行政院最高的統一指揮官他沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8306.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8312.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
所以我認為這就是他拍板的因為這個院長才有指示因為雖然我們按照的是106年的這個食品風險評估之議會那麼所訂出的這個下架原則那這個原則因為我們按照那個是106年原則所以院長才會指示說 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8325.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8339.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
那不然就再召開這個專家會議來重新就這個個案來檢視這個下架的原則是不是要調整所以才會有7月4號的會議所以他有沒有同意說你們後來宣布說第二層優品不用下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8340.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8361.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那第二次的是7月4號7月4號的專家會議那我們執行就按照這個專家會議的結定是護航的啦你一定是不想要不想要說是院長沒有沒有我想要跟你說我們不只要解決當下的問題也要追究責任那最重要還要預防未來不可以再次發生所以部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8363.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8378.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
危害分析重要管制點是現代食品安全監控的基石但是過去也沒有把這個納入關鍵的這個控制點本篇筆的部分那未來你們對於黃豆進口要怎麼加強管制要逐批查驗嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8380.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8407.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
我們在這個邊境當然對於進口的黃豆是有在抽驗不過我們現在因為整個黃豆的保存會受到條件的影響會有改變所以呢還是要從這個製造端這裡要來強化所以我們這一次也找了專家那也正是根據他的這個製程在檢討在哪一些節點上要加強管控部長那你們現在邊境管制的人力有多少人足夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8409.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8435.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
當然這個人力是蠻緊的啦所以我們也需要增加所以每次遇到食安問題都說要逐批查驗所以接下來還有同樣存在高溫然後煙燻乾燥風險的食品可能還有可可豆白米可能有煙燻肉可能有水產柴魚片植物油那你們現在是只要查黃豆嗎還是跟這個致癌物有關的都要相關盤查那如果你只查黃豆那不就一樣是頭痛醫頭腳痛醫腳嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8437.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8446.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
好部長這次食安事件我想要我想因為已經擴及了不同的範圍學校國軍等等所以我想要請教食安辦請食安辦主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8447.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8470.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
在民國103年的時候當時的收水油風暴那時任的台南市長賴清德總統公開主張食安就是國安要求召集中央地方政府立法部門行政部門然後並且批評當時的執政黨說以總統之尊把責任推給地方那如今賴清德總統已經是總統了這批 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8472.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8491.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
獨遊已經擴及的範圍非常的大也流入全台校園午餐那情勢跟影響範圍都非常嚴重當年他要中央站出來要提升到國安層級處理我想要請問主任或者是部長你們如果可以回答都可以總統這次什麼時候要召開國安會議還是食安只有在野的時候才叫做國安 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8492.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8501.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
現在執政了就沒大事了就不是這樣那他什麼時候要召開你們什麼時候要召開所謂的食安及國安的國安層級處理的會議我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8502.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8522.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
行政院就會有跨部會的會不會要到那所以之前那所以你是打臉以前賴清德賴清德當委員的時候當市長的時候他說要召開這個國安及食安那所以就要召開這個國安級的會議你覺得不需要應該是委員這邊是誤解就我們確實在 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8524.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8545.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
重視食安的事情上面是但是很重視嗎你們完全失能啊你完全失能啊你是跨部會行政院層級的現在這些有進去了國軍進去了校園那你們在做什麼為什麼我也覺得很好奇啊現在那你到底在幹嘛你食安辦每一次好像出來都沒有你的事然後都推得一乾二淨 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8548.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8574.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
嗯報告裡面是有寫相關部會的統合我們都有在努力啦有在努力但是到底做了什麼都流進校園了你們的教育部長還跑去輔選那你們到底做了什麼呢所以我們要很快速的你有阻斷到嗎離清範圍如果已經吃了我們當然會有困難嘛那我們會立刻防止會有新的流入到學院好徐主任我再問你喔當時的民進黨主席啊前總統蔡英文也說過 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8575.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8596.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
收水油並非單一事件而是一連串問題的其中一環政務官下台是必然我想要請問本案中聯油的問題到現在為止油品食安五環中的源頭控管源頭出差錯那之前又有蓋牌的問題整個食安五環系統性的崩壞我想要請問一下食安辦你們是什麼時候掌握這件事情的 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8596.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8618.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我們這一次收通報是在7月1號7月1號那你們說廠商有延遲責任你們延後知情延後下架延後公佈有沒有延遲責任你們怎麼全部都把責任給廠商我想要請問食安辦你是行政院的層級那你認為民進黨政府這一次是哪一個單位應該負起政治責任要怎麼負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8620.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8646.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
我們現在一定趕快把事情處理好那您剛有講到說延遲延誤的部分我們已經啟動跟減掉的相關機制我要再問食安辦了民進黨喊了食安五環喊了10多年了對蔡英文當時也說要從源頭全面監控追蹤有毒物質賴清德擔任行政院長的時候也說要建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8646.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8671.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
食品業者身份管理體系做到供應鏈管理 稽查 滾動檢討結果到了2026年中聯油的毒油仍然從源頭混入供應鏈致有毒物超標 油品流入下油這算不算是源頭管理破功確實源頭管理我們做得還不夠好所以是源頭管理破功囉報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8673.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8694.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
有做起來的部分都還有在做所以這邊肯定是在源頭環所以你剛剛說確實做得不夠好嘛你剛剛有說嘛對不對是好那卓榮泰院長去年才說食安五環要有效的降低台灣系統性的食品安全問題還要加強上下游的防火牆是 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8695.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8714.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
當時的邱太元部長也說要推動食安五環2.0對不對從農場到餐桌每一環都要符合安全規範結果現在下游廠商跟民眾一再的受害追溯的資訊也不透明還要靠客戶停貨媒體揭露才爆出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8714.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8738.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
那這算不算是防火牆失靈算不算是五環的2.0剛上路就破工我們做的確實還不夠好那我想要跟文做一個說明就是說我們做食安的管理有一點像說像交通我們盡量每一天所以你剛剛就把它我剛剛問了你就照我的問題回答你剛剛說做的不夠好我剛剛說破工嘛你說做的不夠好 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8739.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8760.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
那你們10年前說要10倍查驗10年後還是出現了查驗的空白10年前說全民監督10年後是業者靠業者自己良心來自救那請問食安辦明確回答一下食安五環到底是政府的制度承諾還是每次出事都拿來糊弄人民的口號這不是跳票什麼叫做跳票 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8762.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8784.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我們在食安五環的框架下在各個領域都繼續的去強化去完善我們不能再繼續已經讓一千多噸的這種有毒有流竄在市面上所以食安辦賴清德總統不是今天才碰到食安問題他2018年當時行政院長主持食安匯報的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8785.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8804.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
就說政府會持續落實食安五環要加強查驗及主動查查發現問題還說食安首重是源頭管理前端要做好管控劣質或不法原料就不會流入食品供應鏈結果今天2026了 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8806.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8816.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
今天中聯獨有問題不就是劣質高風險的原料從源頭混入供應鏈嗎這算不算是當時的行政院長賴清德當年承諾的源頭管理破功我們還是你沒辦法回答因為你不敢回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8825.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8840.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
賴清德當上總統之後他從520就職也提出所謂的五環的2.0食安政策竹東泰院長也說要導入AI完善食品安全的防護網邱太元部長說食品安全是賴清德總統健康政策的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8842.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8869.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
從農場到餐桌每一環都符合安全規範結果現在中聯事件爆發後賴清德只剩下說該停產就停產該下架就下架資訊公開透明依法就責所以我要問10年前說源頭管控10年後還在事後下架當院長的時候說全程監控當總統的時候說五環2.0結果還是獨游流入下游這算不算跳票 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8869.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8897.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
五環2.0算不算破功食安五環就是我們持續在各個方向繼續把食安去做好這一次發生這個事件我們看到有這個我們趕快處理問題限制他的這一些產品擴散不要希望再有下一次發生那您一直問說所以你的食安承諾其實到底是真正能夠解決問題的制度呢還是每次出現 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8898.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8924.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
問題的時候拿來滅火的一個口號所以我要總結一下民進黨當年在野的時候遇到食安問題就說食安是國安要求中央地方立法行政一起面對蔡英文也說政務官本來就要負起行政及政治責任下台是必然可是今天輪到民進黨完全執政的時候從蘇丹紅進口蛋到現在中聯油脂1300多噸的致癌大豆油人民看到的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8925.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8952.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
看到的是源頭沒有管住茶宴沒有攔下名單不公開下架慢半拍行政院遭遇到這麼多起食安事件前端預防大破功原本至少人民還可以期待善後插屁股民進黨已經經驗老到匆匆容容游刃有餘但是最後是朝令夕改甚至三改有品追不回商品沒辦法下架然後被國人痛批後才政策轉彎毒油亂竄院長神隱 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8955.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8979.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
然後有教育部長到處服選啊政府失能 罔顧食安 甩鍋地方民進黨在野的時候是馬英九 江一華負責現在中央執政的變成蔣萬安 盧秀燕負責難道民進黨的功能就只剩下負責叫別人負責嗎為人民把關監督政府這整件事情我們認為真正應該就責的是總統必須道歉 院長必須下台負責謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8981.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8992.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
謝謝廖國祥委員的諮詢待會再蘇清泉委員諮詢完畢後休息十分鐘現在請林院請召委諮詢有請市部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9012.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9026.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
我覺得剛剛有委員引用過去食安事件的影片來批評我認為食安事件不分藍綠那民眾吃下肚的東西也不會分正黨的確2016年江一化院長任內台灣確實發生過重大的油品 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9027.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9043.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
實案事件當時行政院也透過立法院的監督提出一連串的強化實案措施包含我們的加重的刑責法金還有有品分流的管制落實三級評管還有食品追溯追蹤 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9044.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9063.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
加強源頭管理當時修訂的實案法的第41條講得非常清楚地方主管機關有第一線查核抽驗要求資料封存停止販售的權限中央在必要的時候可以介入可這些都不是今天才發明的制度而是過去慘痛事件後政府一步步補起來的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9063.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9082.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
所以我覺得今天更重要的問題不是拿過去的影片來互相攻擊而是要問的是當年這樣的修法建立的工具今天到底有沒有真的發揮作用而且中央跟地方的權責都要歷經事件之後才能夠追究清楚但今天在委員會我們是立法委員就應該回到食安法的權責架構來檢視 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9085.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9101.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
換句話說不是在喊誰道歉就可以解決問題重點是這些工具有沒有及時啟動有沒有確實執行了可是我覺得民眾現在最關心的一個課題應該是到底家裡拿到有這樣的一瓶油 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9102.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9124.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
我到底要怎麼知道他有沒有問題能不能退雖然你食藥署已經設了我們的中聯油脂的那個案的專區也公佈了我們影響的業者跟我們的產品的名系跟產品種類非常的多可是這些資料都很必要可是我要問的是一般民眾查得到嗎就像我今天拿這樣油那我想問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9126.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9146.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
可以在現場告訴大家民眾到底可不可以有這樣有到底我要看哪裡要怎麼去知道是品牌 品名還是有效期限還是事實上是你的癖好這應該是沒有癖好的那到底有的種類是不是一定是納豆油還是有些什麼可以讓我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9147.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9167.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
能夠拿到我確定我要怎麼去做好謝謝委員給我們這個機會跟大家說明其實在我們的網頁上會有出現像這樣它有外觀除了這個公司的名稱還有產品的名稱之外它有外觀所以你可以去看然後下面它會有一個有效日期對有效日期因為我們那個批號會 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9172.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9190.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
會對應他出的那一批的有效期限所以如果是這個品項然後你再去看下面的有效日期是到以這個為例他是寫2027年4月9號的所以如果他的有效日期是這個日期是這個品項的那你就可以拿回去退貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9191.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9208.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
所以我現在看到服售然後對有效日期然後呢再看這一個是什麼油就可以去確定就可以退貨所有的只要沒有在你們上邊的我們就可以安心使用如果在你們上邊的那我們這瓶油就應該要去做處理了是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9211.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9232.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
可是部長我想也要問的是民眾最關心的事實上是健康風險請不要只說不要恐慌或長期大量才有風險我不要部長先回答所有的數字可是我要求衛福部請外部專家用科學證據跟清楚的數據來說明吃多少吃多久多常吃哪些 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9233.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9260.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
族群風險會比較高是因為兒童孕婦長輩還是每天吃團餐或外食的人風險是不是一樣這個我覺得你們要找專家學者來做說明否則的話民眾最擔心的畢竟有兩個字眼叫自癌那就會讓人更大的擔憂所以我覺得你們可能這兩件事要馬上去做那部長我當然要問的是這件事到底是怎麼發生的雖然剛剛您有解釋過現在政府當然也是說中聯有延遲通報那 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9262.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9287.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
我們追查不實也已經重罰了可是我要問的是這批油是4月初就生產出貨6月底才通報7月底民眾才知道中間將近兩個月的時間油已經進到下油了那賣場跟我們的餐飲跟團餐都已經事實上我相信今天公布的御飯糰什麼麵的油包這些都有那 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9288.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9306.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
部長這兩個月到底是哪一關沒有擋住是中聯沒有擋住是下游沒有及時通報還是政府的制度本來就是沒有辦法及時去做掌握跟委員說明大概第一個我們這個它的這個製程上的穩定度 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9307.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9330.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
可能需要再強化所以我們才會跟專家討論在整個製程上要多設幾個節點那麼要求要有檢驗數據這個是一個還有它的這個製程的這個末端的產品它的抽驗頻率這個也要提升那當然我們初步的當然先就這個事件來做檢討那未來要把它變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9332.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9350.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
常態性不只是只針對中聯其他的這些有品公司也一體試用所以這個是未來會去強化的那麼包含自主檢驗的頻率這個抽樣的方式我們都會訂出規範那第二個我們會去強化外部的檢驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9351.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9370.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
就是不是他自己檢驗我們過去食安法修法的時候是規定一定規模以上的一億元以上的規模的都要自設檢驗室進行這些自主檢驗那麼我們會強化的是外部檢驗這個外部檢驗呢過去都是由他自己送往外送那未來呢我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9371.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9390.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
會採取的是由主管機關要去抽抽了再去送外部檢驗來強化它的這個公正客觀性那第三個當然就是後市場的檢驗的部分我們也會去提升這個把這一項的把它提升來大概來做這樣的改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9392.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9410.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
原因到底查到哪裡食藥組已經提到要檢討黃豆原料的驗收那脫臭製成跟我們的萃取溶劑跟抽樣的檢驗的那個查核點那現在有沒有一些初步判斷還有哪些已經排除那哪些還在查完整的報告到底什麼時候會公布 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9411.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9426.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
當然跟委員說明是在我們這個跟專家的討論過程當中也有專家提出說這個是不是原料上問題譬如說有一些巴西豆它的條件比較不穩定那麼會造成最後的產品那麼不過我們現在是 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9427.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9446.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
進行中的就是把它從4月到6月底的這每一個批留下來的這個樣本通通送驗然後之後再來對比所以到底去確認是原料的問題還是製程上的不穩定所造成這個要等我們所有的檢驗報告都出來之後我們就會回頭去去做確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9449.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9476.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
這個我們的這個因為他的批次很多二十幾個樣本在驗那麼大概是明天最快明天會有報告出來最後我要我覺得最關心的是未來怎麼避免那食藥署現在說要逐船逐批的檢驗也要求那個有場修正SOP那請問部長這建議還是強制什麼時候上路這個還要根據我們現在調查到哪裡確認到哪裡之後我們再做整個的 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9477.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9500.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
這個修正的那因為不只是中聯還有我們的大統議常會跟台堂你們現在會對他們怎麼去做現在的部分也加強抽驗了就是現在因為這個對因為中聯已經停止生產那剩下這三家勢必他必須要多增加一些產量來供應這個民眾的需要那所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9500.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9503.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
已經開過會跟他們討論過7月6號也跟他們討論過了那接著我們現在就是加強對這三家油廠的監測這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9511.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9536.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
部長我覺得我們要一起趕快把制度尤其事實上是過去沒有強度到這麼強那接下來我們讓強度要更強的去做那個檢驗那另外一個我覺得孩子我們也一樣是很關心這也是實案問題部長近期有兩則的媒體報導都讓家長非常的擔心第一個是行政院消保處抽驗了50件的那個嬰幼兒的食品結果事件是中心署不符合規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9537.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9557.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
其中一件是海苔酥檢出我們的葛超標近20倍那千葉超標最後下架銷毀並要求業者改善那第二個是靖州刊也揭露了目前市面上有很多標榜寶寶點心6個月以上可以使用的果乾還有蔬果脆片這些產品 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9558.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9575.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
雖然家長都認為這是嬰幼兒食品可是依法卻只是一般的食品管理不適用嬰幼兒食品的農藥殘留0.01ppm的嚴格標準那我當然肯定政府有嚴格的農藥重金屬維生物的標準可目前看起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9576.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9601.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
看起來法規分類似乎跟不上我們的市場的發展所以我要問部長兩個問題就是說第一個衛福部是否會全面檢討我們供應應用食品的管理只要產品標示或廣告或銷售對象是應用而就應該納入更嚴格的安全管理而不是只看產品的類比第二個是除了目前的上市 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9602.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9611.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
的一個抽驗是否會針對寶寶的果乾海苔米米餅等高風險的產品納入更嚴格的安全標準而非僅適用一般的食品規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9613.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9635.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
跟文說明確實我們現在是分成我們打算的是對嬰兒幼兒跟嬰幼兒這些文字上很相近的我們要做出一個統一的規範到底你要標示這樣是指多少個月的那麼才可以那麼未來我們會有新的修正的規定目前大概有草案了那麼把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9636.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9648.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
怎麼標示那麼你要標示是專供嬰幼兒的那應該要符合什麼規定我們會做一個開始的預告對嬰幼兒有注意到由委員提出來食品安全衛生管理法的修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9649.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9674.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
希望避免業者以寶寶食品寶寶點心等名義誤導家長可是我認為這樣修改方向確實一定有幫助可是真正的問題不只是怎麼賣而更是要怎麼管如果一項食品就是以嬰幼兒為主要的對象卻沒有適用更嚴格的安全標準那就即使就是他不能夠宣稱自己寶寶食品家長仍然就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9674.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9700.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
他就算不叫寶寶食品可是家長仍然還是可以購買孩子仍然還是可以使用那表示我們的食安風險並沒有真正的消失所以我覺得衛福部應該除了防止這種誤導性的標示跟行銷以外也應該同步檢討我們的應有食品的定義跟相關我們的衛生標準甚至當實際供應應有食用的那樣的一個食品應該納入更完整更嚴格的管理要麻煩衛福部來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9702.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9726.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
那最後就是一個我覺得這一題我今年1月就已經問過了我質詢過部長了衛福部那關於三班輪班值班護理人員直接獎勵的計畫獎勵金從去年6月的獎勵津貼到隔年2月還沒領到的問題在1月的時候質詢過你可是到3月份我還是收到回覆是醫院仍然說卡在衛福部而先由醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9726.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9752.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以部長為什麼還是會發生這樣的事情衛福部就說你已經給醫院了可是醫院就是卡在衛福部部長我相信衛福部這裡你們只要有申請你們醫院有跟你們申請你應該不會不給他們可是問題是醫院會是這樣去跟護理人員講所以照理來講像全民健康保險的春節獎勵金4月就已經算好了可是最近我還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9752.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9764.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
一直接到第一線的醫護的陳情說獎勵金沒有下來也有聽聞有的獎勵金已經下來就標準不一致為什麼各家醫院會有不一樣的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9765.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9790.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
跟委員說明我們5月22號都已經獎勵金都發下去了5月22號然後呢現在是在請醫院回報他的發放情形那麼也調查的這個醫院是437家已經也427家回復了他的發放情形了還差10家所以會不會是這個這10家沒有發我們會再繼續追要不要去了解因為設立了一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9791.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9807.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
所以這樣是不是要去設置一個我們的罰則機制規定醫院端拿到款項幾個月內一定要發放否則你獎勵的心意根本就不在了而且確保第一線的醫護人員他在辛苦上班之後真的獎勵金可以入袋 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9808.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9824.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
而不是我還要來跟我們會繼續追查剩下的這10家我們現在掌握的就是437家醫院申請我們5月22號獎勵進度下去422家已經回報他的流向了剩下10家我們繼續追這10家好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝林業勤召委的諮詢現在請蘇清泉委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9839.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9845.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
好 謝謝 謝謝主席我請最辛苦的部長我請市長兩部長還有食藥署署長江署長好 蘇委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9853.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9874.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
我幾個問題請教,第一就是,我們現在在夜市,菜市場,在吃回鍋油、炸油、解退的那些油回收回來,現在那些油的動向是去哪裡?怎麼回收?是去做工業用,還是去做燒毀?這邊一規定是燒毀。 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9878.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9896.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
就是這一批我們講的這些油因為這個夜市用的這個炸油都是比較大容量的所以一家都是被我們要求要下架回收啦回收之後才有一個處置的原則不不不 不然你再聽我說現在全台灣的夜市這裡的油 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9900.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9916.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
每天這樣回收一種這些油平常的啦平常的油啦都外出去了那是跟環保署在處理它有一個再利用的循環再利用是弄到工業區還是弄到什麼區 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9917.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9945.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
因為上次食安出問題上一次就是因為回收再製產生一大堆問題那現在施工配置不一樣所以這裡一樣也是在產生這裡的油現在是怎麼做不然你再查一下好不好平常就是平常日常這裡的日常的用途整個台灣的藥質都不得了這裡的還是說他們在炸回鍋的啊重複用的這些不能再用了我們再跟環保 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9947.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9951.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
這個環境部了解一下那因為這樣所以後來食安法就修改說所有的油類都要原始的譬如說大豆油 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9972.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9992.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
茴花油,棕櫚油,菜籽油等等,這些都要為原始的原料站起來就是說像你沙拉油,一定是要大豆放出來那這一次的問題,就是原始的大豆放大豆出來,這樣加熱,也是很大事 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9995.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10018.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
這兩天我請教很多壞的專家,有馬里蘭的、有密西根的、有台灣的師大他們說兩個,一個是我們在加熱的過程中,250度到350度加熱那些有機物會自己游離出來,然後本跟本會結合,所以這個是五個本 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10020.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10037.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
那看起來這個C20H12如果有加上OH的話它是很穩定的喔那個是沒有辦法從有上面再把它拿出來是拿不出來喔所以唯一只有銷毀喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10039.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10064.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
所以保證你可能這間也有很多啦我是覺得做醫生在補這個我感覺很累嘛所以你現在這些東西我就一直想說能不能從油裡面有這種汙染物能不能把它萃取出來結果是沒辦法所以唯一就像你說的那些消費而已那消費是怎麼消費就拿這個風化爐把它燒掉是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10069.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10091.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
不能流入這些食物鏈是確定的但是是不是可以做燃料這另外一個顆爐啦做燃料也是一個顆爐啦反正成機油啦所以把它造化因為像這一次這個油供應的時候也會供應到塑膠製造在塑膠製造過程中有拿到油 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10094.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10116.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
另外一個我們衛生部一直講說是在加熱過程中製造過程中自己產生的這些本類的化合物但是也有人懷疑是從剛剛我一開始我提到我們這次中聯油脂中聯油脂這間公司是剛才說的五間公司大家合資去成立的 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10119.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10140.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
這五間,中油這五間,是它的投資者,所以很複雜,部長你也搞不清楚啦。不管如何,就是說它藉著過程中是有汙染的,那這個是原始的大豆,因為有化學的專家認為,這個是在巴西就出問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10141.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10159.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
因為它要潮濕,還有遇到雨季,這陶瓦淋上去運送過程那麼久,所以它會用高溫加熱那高溫加熱是燒什麼?燒油用油燒燒起,把黃豆烘乾就對了我們烘切的也是用油烘的,用油烘的肉去烘切的,切完以後就卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10170.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10180.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那有的是用煤炭燒然後吹進去熱氣煤炭燃燒不完全嘛現在有幾乎都黏著在 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10181.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10201.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
黃豆的殼上面這是有可能的喔啊你把萃取的生氣放到我身上就出事了所以這個可能性也很大中聯說他現在是該用巴西的黃豆以前是美國的黃豆那這個也有可能的書長你也要去查看到底這是不是中 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10203.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10228.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
這個來源有問題 再來你在煉油的過程中你為了要脫膠 脫澀 脫酸 脫臭你還有加一些有加什麼東西沒有 只是用熱 把它塞出來而已看到多立原本 多立原本是什麼怎麼來的多立原本是那個管子要加熱 那管子裡面是多立原本因為多立原本是很穩定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10230.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10256.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
加到一千度都沒有問題的結果那個是管子破掉那多利涼比較滲到食用油裡面去是這樣出事的吃了大家都頭痛痛的所以這是歷史這樣一波一波來的大家都痛苦的經驗所以我要問你的就是說在這脫膠脫色脫臭脫酸這個四個步驟你是只有用加熱還是它有加添加劑 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10259.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10285.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
是用正極丸在萃正極丸在萃另外就是因為有脫臭的時候會加白土所以那個會變成是缺氧的狀態特別這個部分我們也在在缺氧的狀態下他這有幾乎就又自己合成是不是這樣是這樣來嗎你到目前的了解我目前的了解從前面的豆子第二個是脫氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10287.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10315.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
脫臭的過程跟脫色的過程當中因為高溫加上低壓真空的狀態都有可能讓他理論上是製程會讓百分之八十會降下來我們希望能夠確定他的製程能夠改進也是我們在教他做修正這個我想比較重要不然的話將來層次不窮啦不然這比什麼更重要再來第二輪的這五家公司他們接受到這個油之後他們有沒有混油 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10316.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10329.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
因為我看他們的成品不一樣啊 他們有沒有混油第二個他們自己去抽菸有的是合標的 有的是多兩倍的 有的多四倍的像那個什麼 多四倍的那個給你們通報那一家是 陳輝龍 南橋這間就說四倍 為什麼會標 都外送來是自己檢驗室做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10340.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10357.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
有自願的檢驗室也要送結果出來怎麼差那麼多 有的是可貴 有的是一倍 有的是四倍 怕死人 要信對頭所以我就沒有補 有的有補是不是這樣 這件是不是這樣這位是驗出來都有超標對 但是沒有補你說他們自主檢驗的部分有驗到超標 但是沒有太補 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10368.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10393.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
沒有跟主管機關通報啦是跟他的上游業者通報啊上游的話也沒有馬上跟主管機關通報自己又再驗一次啊直到驗到後面真的是超標啊通報就一定6月30號啊所以已經吵個一、二個月啊所以吃這麼久啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10396.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10396.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
所以說,我問他,你覺得怎樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10400.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10424.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
這些這樣一直的製程都是這樣那就是今天這一攤百坑啊如果沒有 平常茶要雞一杯啦雞兩杯啦這個這個這個MensopurinePyrineMensopyrineVAP嘛Mensopyrine那國際環保那環保那是什麼環保啊那有這麼不合本的環保那誰拿得出來啦全台灣我看不到幾個人拿得出來這個名 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10429.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10452.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
每一次都用很艱深的那個中文很奇怪我的意思就是說這過程中如果都沒有驗出來而是說高一點點或者這個東西本來就有在這個食用油裡面那這我們長期吃有沒有問題五點代謝四十六小時七十二小時就代謝掉但是這樣長期會不會對肝臟對腎臟有問題會不會常常說一級之愛會不會怕死人 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10459.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10467.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
所以這也是我們在2017年訂出這個標準的啦這之前也沒有 這個標準也是2017年訂出來的 2018年才開始蓋這個東西的 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10474.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10499.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
所以你現在用的是什麼2.1ppb2.0ppbppb嘛 如果這個安堵這個會卡就OK那吃下去也是有問題 各自我們的器官 強壯的器官把它代謝掉是不是這樣 它也是會代謝嘛它是會代謝 沒有錯因為那個是蠻穩定的化合物 蠻穩定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10501.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10522.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
那如果他有再加上兩個OHG的話他會跟那個DNA的雙骨剛好都卡住那是引起突變的所以這個是蠻嚴重的事情所以不一定痛定思痛啦對啊怪人怪事沒什麼意思但是一定要看出來防範啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10523.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10527.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
我們從這個經驗裡面去強化未來的慣例啦2017之前沒有驗 2017之前我們搞不好出了30年了 對吧我們越健康越好啦 就盡量避免接觸這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10547.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10556.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
好 部長加油謝謝 謝謝蘇清泉委員的諮詢現在處理新收歷史提案 既有疑案請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10559.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10587.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
保障國人飲食安全政府責無旁貸此時中聯有指事件凸顯現行食品安全管理法規中場上自主檢驗制度有其缺失人要求衛生福利部處將所有資料主動交給檢調調查也應就市面上問題有品限期清查完成親近中央及地方政府與食品業者的食安責任若失職人員應予以究責提案委員陳盈黃秀芳林月琴楊耀王振旭范雲莊瑞雄宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10590.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10603.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
請問本案行政單位有無意見委員有無意見請問本案行政單位有無意見委員有無意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10624.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10633.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
那個第三行喔就是那個自主檢驗制度中間加自主檢驗及通報制度檢驗及通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10642.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10667.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
第三行廠商自主檢驗加上急通報制度有其缺失請問行政機關有沒有意見沒有好沒有意見好謝謝沒有意義的話就照案通過好謝謝好 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10669.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10672.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
臨時提案全部處理完畢現在休息十分鐘謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10696.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10712.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
謝謝觀賞 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10714.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10717.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
現在手持在正門,持穩第一把手。 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10739.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10755.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10766.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10766.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
嗯。 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10784.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10784.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
香蕉 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10822.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10829.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10841.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10849.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
這裏有個小小的廟宇這裏有個小小的廟宇 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10866.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10867.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10900.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10915.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10934.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10936.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10961.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10963.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10978.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10991.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
這裏面是一間餐廳,一間餐廳是一間餐廳,一間餐廳是一間餐廳。 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11002.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11002.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11017.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11043.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
他們選擇了 現在也選擇了 越南的 越南的 越南的 越南的 越南的 越南的 越南的 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11045.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11057.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11077.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11078.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11103.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11105.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11118.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11118.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11136.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11157.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11161.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11168.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
這張照片是在2012年10月1日拍攝的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11179.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11208.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11211.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11217.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11261.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11264.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
好 就现在继续开会了 请你坐在那边好 开会了吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11274.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11296.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
好 現在繼續開會現在我們請林淑芬委員質詢好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們部長和署長好 請市部長江署長另外一位好 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11296.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11319.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
部長上個禮拜五7月3號你們召開記者會邀請了學者專家還一起坐在旁邊當天台大農業化學系的教授蘇南維他在這裡面講了一些意思就是說這個有可能是來自於豆子的問題他就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11320.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11345.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
7月3號什麼事情都還搞不清楚然後你們就請學者專家來背書說有可能是豆子的問題但我是要說啊學者當然可以提出科學上的可能性但你整個食藥署都還沒有查明原因你就安排學者來說原產地採收後乾燥可能造成本片比的生成 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11346.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11351.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
然後容易讓外界認為說你們就直接認為是黃豆原料出問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11352.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11378.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
甚至想說這是不是在幫業者開脫你還沒有查清楚製程的管理精煉的程序 品質的控管 倉儲的運輸就先透過學者說法把焦點轉向國外的原料那待會我們可以再說那我的意思是說不要講這個蘇南維蘇南維是誰你們都不知道這裡沒有幾個人還記得 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11380.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11393.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
孫南緯在婦衛箱混油案件假油的時候他就引起了高度的爭議當時的政府也找他出來當時他是拿到這個國科會 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11400.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11425.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
還有富衛鄉這個業者的錢去做了一個研究他研究的主題確認開發芝麻油參混其他食用油檢測方法的研究所以他明明拿了業者的錢做研究也拿了政府的錢做研究他知道有混油他也做這個混油的研究方法的研究但他不公開不說 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11426.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11435.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
他就是這樣子當假的這個混的芝麻油的事件爆發的時候他都沒有講話所以當時就引起高度的爭議那我現在在講這個學者過去是這樣子你們現在在重大的食安案件的時候你們還繼續邀請他出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11448.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11471.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
你會讓人家相信說這不是請專家來幫業者開脫我是打問號啦老實說所以你如果讓人家相信說你不是在特定幫業者轉移這個方向尤其是整個案件都還沒有查明7月3號你就找這種爭議的學者來把問題導向原料端這樣子是 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11475.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11491.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
更不要講另外一個方向你們說本扁比的代謝快幾天到兩週就可以排除不要過度恐慌我可以理解政府想要讓大家不恐慌可是事實上你們不應該這麼說 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11493.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11514.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
而是因為台灣有多少的外食的人而這些外食的人天天可能吃便利商店的便當天天可能吃早餐都吃御飯糰而這些外食族的人沒有足夠的膳食纖維他們沒有攝取青菜量可以去代謝 沒有而他們的風險是天天天天 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11520.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11542.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
而天天吃這些御飯糰當早餐的人多得很耶更不要講說如果我說啦有小孩喜歡吃冰淇淋家裡面天天吃冰淇淋如果冰淇淋的油脂有問題你說本便比代謝快但是一次大量食用天天吃有沒有可能就有風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11543.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11568.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
你都沒有考慮到很多人的飲食習慣消費習慣 外食族的人的別無選擇所以你們找這些學者專家出來不要說洗地啦 就是說這樣的做法我覺得應該是沒必要啦 部長你覺得有必要這樣子做嗎事實上也轉移不了焦點啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11570.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11596.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
跟委員說明確實這個事件我們還在調查當中就如同我之前講的我們把它從4月到6月底這些我們都還要再按照它的這個樣本再重演然後再去check呢如果有問題的去對應它的往前追溯的製程來來扣合是製程還是原料的問題當時上個禮拜五什麼都不知道啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11597.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11606.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
不要這樣就急著找學者專家出來啦要淡化這個事情的處理不是這樣子風險的問題是風險的問題風險溝通要跟人民好好的做風險溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11614.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11623.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
而風險溝通很重要的核心的精神其實是要資訊公開透明啦所以今天為什麼大家都覺得說不滿意你們因為食品的安全治理當然要有風險的管理但要做風險的溝通管理手中的是科學的這個判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11635.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11661.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
但是溝通重視的是資訊的揭露然後風險的來源檢測的結果然後在充分的資訊之下讓我們消費者要自主判斷所以這個問題資訊透明很重要風險的溝通很重要我是要告訴你這件事情好 下一個問題我是要告訴你食安法第七條第五項 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11662.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11680.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
食安法第七條第五項你清楚他的法條啊你雖然你們用這一條開法但我還是要再講喔我再念一次食品業者不是只有三千萬以上也不是大廠只要所有的食品業者發現產品有危害衛生安全之餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11681.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11708.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
不是已經喔有可能有可能造成風險就應該要立即主動停止製造加工販賣而且要立即的辦理回收並通報直轄市縣市主管機關好這裡面有兩個風險有可能就要喔第二個要立即停止加工販賣喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11710.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11724.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
你現在是以沒有通知主管機關去處分他們可是你沒有處理到前半段前半段是判斷有可能有風險之餘了就要立即停止製造加工和販賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11725.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11741.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
那如果照這樣的話中聯難巧是幾月幾號開始檢出好所以跟委員說明我們昨天呢只是先針對中聯但是另外的幾家業者包含泰山福茂福茂跟福壽 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11742.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11753.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
他們何時知道然後有沒有繼續販賣這個我們也在查那麼以南橋來講好啦我現在告訴你我們先把時間點先抓出來嘛第一個南橋5月13號就檢出4.6個單位了對 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11758.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11769.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
是5月13號你看來我們看一個影片5月13號結果他今天下架的批次是什麼時候做的5月28、6月2號、6月4號、6月8號、6月2號、6月2號、6月3號 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11774.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11788.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
5月13號自主檢驗就知道了有沒有符合我們食安法裡面第7條第5項你已經發現了有可能有健康危害之餘了就應該立即停止加工製造他有沒有停止他有沒有停止我們以為他這麼有良心通報出來結果不是他當然發現了4.6而到他再去復驗請外面的人復驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11802.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11815.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
八點零 六月四號他都知道 但是他也不停的在用這個有問題的毒油還繼續在生產加工好 這樣你聽到沒有那中聯油脂什麼時候接獲報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11824.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11839.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
那是6月11號6月11號他有沒有停止生產有沒有停止加工製造有沒有下架按照我們的法律他就應該要立即下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11840.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11855.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
好來6月15號他們大家都說他們秘密會議然後6月15號他們召開一個所謂的秘密會議就是平保聯繫會議6月15號所有人大家都知道所有業者都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11856.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11875.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
請問他們有沒有遵守我們的法律我們的法律是有健康危害之餘的風險的時候就要立即停止加工停止製造停止生產然後要立即下架有沒有都沒有然後現在我要講 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11877.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11889.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
你們看業者怎麼做這個時序很重要因為這關係到法律的問題我們的法律到底是參考用的業者給他當成參考用的讓業者給架空掉了還是真的有實質的管理能力關係到這件事情如果這個時序屬實然後6月4號就8點0了然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11907.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11916.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
已經構成發現產品有危害安全衛生之虞了然後6月15號他們所有的秘密會議都知道了結果他們還在幹什麼他們第一時間發現的時候他們幹什麼部長他們幹什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11922.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11949.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
他們第一個動作做復驗他們不是停止加工他們不是停止生產製造他們不是下架他們說我繼續復驗業者可以復驗但是復驗不能成為延後通報復驗不能成為不下架然後繼續生產製造加工的理由嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11951.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11955.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
你也不能夠把復驗當成通報的前置程序嘛我現在要講什麼最危險的地方就是業者把流程理解成下游說有問題我再繼續復驗復驗確定以後再通報主管機關然後讓這個毒油繼續擴散讓這個加工食品繼續生產更多讓我們人民吃更多欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11980.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12001.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
所以第七條第五項設計的邏輯是這樣子嗎保定你的理解是什麼第七條第五項我們立法院修法是這樣子處理的嗎我的理解就是跟委員講的是一樣的這之餘的時候他就要立刻採取動作這個是業者的責任為什麼業者會變成今天這個負責性為什麼會變成這負責性 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12003.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12027.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
我們立法院修法把第七條第五項的設計從嚴管理只要產品有可能對安全產生危害就要立即通報立即停止生產要下架發現有疑慮要先停用先控管先通報再同步復驗再釐清原因所以在這裡他們你們食藥署我看不下去你們食藥署說 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12028.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12057.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
一開始新聞稿大家拿出來看一看第一時間跟泰山現在回頭去看都想吐這些業者跟你的食藥署都讓我們想吐你們用說接獲中聯主動通報來說明這個事件中聯是主動通報嗎有符合法律的通報程序嗎主動通報 泰山來說我比法律規定的半年宴一次還更嚴格 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12058.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12060.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
他講這個話都讓人想吐他被抓包了東窗事發了而且法律叫他馬上停止生產他都沒有然後他還敢說我比法律規定來更高標準笑話而你的食藥署的新聞稿現在拿出來看還定調成中聯主動通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12088.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12116.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
他如果主動通報在6月初就應該要通報了所以通報的業務主體也不是只有中聯包括南橋南橋他5月13就應該要通報了他不但不通報用獨有繼續生產製造還讓我們吃更多所以這證明什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12117.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12143.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
法律被業者架空啦形同虛設啦我們在這裡所有食品安全的管理都仰賴業者的良知而偏偏業者最缺的就是沒有良知良心啦所以這的確是源頭管理破功啊源頭管理破功下有權中標啊民怨當然四起啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12145.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12149.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
所以主動通報不等於即時通報啦也沒有符合法律啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12150.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12173.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
而今天這套自主檢驗我們的想像的前提是業者會誠實會及時 會完整的把異常交給主管機關而我們人民的想像是人民錯誤虛假的想像是在架上的都有把關過有政府在把關 沒問題原來這一些假設都是錯誤的 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12179.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12180.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
所以現在我要講第二個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12183.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12209.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
這種高風險的食品或上游的原料你指標性的污染物實質進入了多層供應鏈的大宗的這些原料一旦第三方這個實驗室檢出超標你們還是不知道所以第三方實驗室檢出超標你是不是也應該同步建立通報主管機關的機制有沒有可能也需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12210.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12214.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
我們現在講 講個案 講這個事件但我們更要看到制度面哪裡有問題要補起來啊那我現在要講第二個問題喔自己投資上游 自己買自己的原料自己檢驗 自己放行啊現在這種自主管理還行得通嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12232.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12240.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
我也不認為這個事件是單一批次檢驗超標現在也已經證明還有案外案其他批次那我現在要問你就是說整個國內使用油脂的供應鏈高度集中了這個產業結構說是四家其實就是兩大家中聯油脂和大統一 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12258.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12282.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
可是這些是什麼問題他們上游供應商下游品牌上游供應商就下游品牌投資的下游的品牌商不是無辜的受害者啦不要理解成這些福壽泰山福茂是無辜的受害者 不是他們同時都是股權 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12284.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12299.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
重疊在一起的 既是上游又是下游還有食品加工業 天啊上游供應平台 下游品牌 具有共同投資 共同利益結構還仰賴業者自主管理嗎 這個案件 這一種同一個 而且是市占率這麼高的你還要繼續讓他們業者自主管理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12313.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12329.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
跟委員說明我們會強化外部監測除了他自主檢測的頻率逐批或者是中間的環節要去節點要去強化之外我們第二個這個頻管就是外部檢驗的部分會來強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12330.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12355.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
包含呢 因為這次只有這幾個源頭的那麼由主管機關入場去做部長 這種話我們聽很多啦台灣的假油事件 參同業綠素事件收水油事件 到這一次的毒油事件都是這些大廠商啦 一次兩次三次 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12357.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12382.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
每次都是全國人民在遭殃啊我們不是多一點的外部監測機制整個油品管理整個資本重疊高度集中這些大財團大資本最上有壟斷的再也不能夠讓他們自主管理啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12385.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12388.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
不是只要幾次抽菸 加強抽菸不是 再也不行啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12393.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12418.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
所以我們在這裡 他們有幾個問題 第一個上游供應商 下游品牌存在的股權利益關係下游的業者能不能以完全獨立的外部採購者立場要求上游供應商提高檢驗標準暫停出貨 主動通報不可能啦 那都他們自己的怎麼可能 我去要求中聯油脂更高標準 成本更高 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12420.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12439.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
這樣泰山福壽會影響自己的他有可能這樣損及自己的利益所以在這種狀況當上游平台出問題下游品牌不是受害者他是同一個供應體系的共同責任主體所以他們不可能但是我要告訴你喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12442.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12466.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
我最後告訴你 你看他們的平保會議大家業者 大家借酒來大家不知道 大家是要隱瞞什麼不知道要不感謝他沒有通報 沒有立即停止生產 沒有下架一起討論不曉得幹嘛現在還要逐批查驗 這個可能有可能擴大你現在就已經發生了 要不要再擴大逐批去查驗啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12468.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12472.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
現在只有一批有問題 只有案外案第二批那你現在要不要繼續擴大去查驗應不應該對這種毫無良知的業者也應該要去擴大查驗啊 需不需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12482.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12501.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
要不要 已經做了那個跟委員講我們已經把他過去的樣本從4月到6月底的這個20幾個樣本我們都在驗都重新驗 已經在驗了但是這樣子就好了嗎我現在告訴你類似的股權結構的不是只有中聯油脂不是只有泰山福茂和福壽 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12502.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12514.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
那大統一呢 你相信大統一 這一種相同的股權結構你們剛才 我剛才聽到你們早上早上起來報告他說大統一統一集團自主管理比中聯還要嚴格 還要好早上 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12526.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12528.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
妳憑什麼保證 妳憑什麼保證出問題了 妳可以負責嗎我們在這裡要再次仰賴業者的良知和良心嗎騙笑的 早上妳怎麼知道 妳有我打保證嗎 妳剛才說的啊委員問你啊 大統一有沒有問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12551.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12570.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
跟委員報告我們現在對其他目前在繼續製造的這些上游的這個業者我們也開始進行他的抽驗我現在跟你講他一樣是大型的食用油脂供應平台背後連結了食品加工油脂販售飼料生產他是一個大型的財團 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12571.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12589.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
然後包括統一企業泰華油脂大城長城企業也就是說大統一不是單一獨立的油廠它是大型的食品加工油脂銷售飼料產業共同投資最大的這個油脂供應平台啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12591.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12608.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
所以它的原料製程檢驗如果出現異常影響的範圍也不是單一品牌甚至會比中聯油脂更大那沿著它的供應鏈擴散到多個通路和產品類型所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12609.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12635.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
你不可以把這個事件定調成只是中聯油脂單一業者的違規案件你應該進一步的擴大去盤點大型食用油脂業者的供應鏈結構和股權關係然後要去查驗要去確定這一些背後的食品加工油脂販售飼料通路所有的東西每一個環節 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12637.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12657.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
都還是安全的啊要主動出擊啊不能夠在這裡仰賴業者自主管理正如同我沒有辦法在這裡聽到你食品組的組長在這裡大言不慚拍胸脯說大統一管理的比中聯油脂更嚴格 屁我們不相信這種屁話 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12663.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12685.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
要有政府啦不是在那裡道德上的保證啦這個事件以後我們希望你也不是查中領油脂啊你這樣講說本扁比抄標你們一開始就說黃豆來源乾燥儲存製成油問題那我同樣的問題我再問你剛才你們也是閃躲了一下啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12686.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12695.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
大統益到底有沒有買巴西黃豆如果你們認為是巴西黃豆有問題大統益到底有沒有買巴西黃豆他採購的比例批次 進貨的時間 原料的檢驗有沒有異常過他這個都自主管理 所以你們沒有資料啦他們都自主管理啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12713.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12721.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
這次中聯有自主揭示啦你們大統一有自主揭示了嗎有嗎你們有沒有數據 有沒有 有沒有買不要讓我們來外面等有沒有買到巴西豆 你們認為巴西豆出問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12738.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12754.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
這個因為從抱怨的部分呢在去年我們看到他有進來今年我就問你今年就好了啦今年有沒有啦不要這樣子今年的我們沒有資料沒有資料我這邊手上 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12754.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12769.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
都是已經發生了你們都指向巴西黃豆你現在問你大統一今年有沒有進你們沒有同時去查嗎所以你們不敢查還是不知道還是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12771.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12784.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
所以他們有沒有進 進了以後自主檢驗有沒有合格結果都有合格嗎那你們現在要不要對大統一台堂常徽也要擴大 稍微抽查一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12787.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12802.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
我沒有說我不是要指控大同益有問題而是因為使用油脂高度集中流量極大這是民生基礎的原料 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12803.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12817.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
所以從中聯油脂暴露出進口原料製成管控批次的檢驗下游的流向這種管理風險都出問題的時候同樣市佔率這麼高我們也希望要讓人民安心啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12819.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12837.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
應該要同步去檢視其他大型的有紙的平台是不是有相同的風險條件所以我再說一次 我不知道大統一是不是直接有問題但是政府絕對有責任也要一併的查清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12839.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12864.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
所以在這裡要檢討的是使用油脂最上游的源頭這些產業供應的高度集中上下游的股權和利益關係緊密的產業結構我們絕對不能夠再把食品安全交給業者自主管理我們屢屢就知道發現包括南橋都已經知道了還繼續加工製造 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12866.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12878.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
所以我們可以確定 沒有一個食品加工廠他們真的會自主檢驗 自主有良知 自己把關不可信任啦 絕對不可信任但是呢 我現在是要再講另外一個結論啦我講一個結論啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12888.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12906.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
不要用代謝很快來回應社會那也不要說還沒有出問題然後就直接還沒有找出問題的原因就隨便把你的可能性就直接變成好像就是答案了2014年黑心油地溝油 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12908.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12932.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
食藥署的官方Q&A曾經表示黑心油品雖然可能具有潛在健康風險但因問題油品流入市面時時間跟民眾攝取量有限是否會造成健康危害 仍需要更多科學資料評估而且你們的食藥署當時還說目前科學文獻並無直接證據證明黑心油品會立即危害人體健康當時 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12937.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12942.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
現在你們還去叫人家說代謝很快代謝很快是有前提有要件的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12945.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12966.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
而這個前提案要件你們沒讓人民知道你們直接說沒啥問題這樣不對的當年社會為什麼憤怒當年社會是因為政府跟沒有做好把關問題喔然後業者跟政府最後不透明不誠實不負責任讓我們這樣子吃下去而這一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12967.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12993.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
本扁比就是列為致癌物質它當然是長期反覆累積暴露的風險不是短期的極毒性 但是你要考慮到現在大家家庭都外食啦大家的早餐都外食啦孩子就愛吃冰淇淋 就愛吃沙拉啦天天吃的很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12995.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13019.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
所以這不是天天吃嗎這不是長期嗎這不是累積暴露嗎而這種風險應該要源頭被控制不是等到問題再來告訴人民再透過專家學者來告訴我們身體可以代謝不用太擔心我們不想要這樣這次的事件我是要講 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13022.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13043.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
我們不是要製造恐慌也不是要否定掉你風險評估的專業而是你必須要了解科學說明不能取代行政責任代謝的速度不能取代源頭管理沒有極度性也不能取代公開透明就是這樣子保定 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13045.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13068.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
不要再像以前一樣 說詞跟以前一樣 聽不下去啊好好的誠實面對 資訊公開透明交給消費者自行來判斷 政府該做的都要扛起來不可以這樣啦 直接拍胸膛 說他入職管理要比較嚴 屁 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13071.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13089.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
謝謝委員我們一定把所有的資訊及時的透明公開那麼會強化這個風險沒有啊你們上個禮拜就沒有啊上個禮拜六日啊我們這人又看不下去一直在查好啦好謝謝謝謝林淑芬委員的諮詢現在請邱惠璐委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13101.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13127.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
有請衛福部長 有請食藥署署長 主席還有各位與會的同仁 大家好部長我想跟你請教一件事就是關於現在流出的致癌油它現在流出來有1300噸那請問一下這1300噸目前只回收43噸那其他的你們的掌握是流到何方 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13129.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13151.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
我們現在掌握了所有的流向就是它賣到哪裡去大概都已經出來了那只不過因為多數有的它已經是用掉了賣出去的話就讓民眾有一部分是在坊間市場上直接由消費者買的那就拿回去退貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13152.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13180.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
還有一些是大商的一早聽下來感覺你們目前只有掌握43那至於其他的1250感覺已經流向不明所以你們所謂的有掌握流向因為你好像剛好回應另外一個委員說流向有掌握那你們的流向掌握就是流向不明了嘛1250其實就已經是流向不明了就是賣到哪些業者然後做成哪些產品那這些都已經掌握了已經掌握了對 才會公佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13181.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13207.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
可是那個量非常的大然後到底現在最後終端的使用者是誰你們也只能夠掌握到所謂的第二層而已我們是掌握到產品就是第二層的產品都已經發布了所以換言之其實43這個數字就已經是你們終局努力的目標了嘛沒有要再繼續努力下去這個是那個回收的油啦就是還沒有賣出去的回收回來的油那有些它已經用掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13208.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13224.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
像有些是炸的我了解那現在就是我現在要詢問的就是那個1250的數字就是等於是我們可以定義無法掌握嘛流向不敏嘛沒有進一步努力的空間了嘛其實就是看運氣誰吃到那就是誰自己去承擔了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13225.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13246.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
就是知道這些產品我們當然不知道每一個民眾他買了什麼嘛所以我們公佈的是這些產品還有中間有一些業者是直接拿來油炸油那些都大概都已經沒有用了了解啦但是聽起來就是流向不明啦你們所謂的油廠或流向其實就是流向不明啦好來第二個問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13248.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13277.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
那現在呢就是關於呢你們昨天呢有發布一個下架原則嘛你們的那個書面報告第二頁有提到一個下架原則那昨天7月7號其實四點開記者會的下架原則本來從20%以上的這個自來友已經那個擴散到擴大到20%以下的你們也回收嘛那你們的第二頁有提到這個下架原則但是我們的團隊辦公室上去找找不到這個原則請問這個原則網路上查得到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13278.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13295.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
你們第二頁有提到一個下架原則有發布嗎 如果沒有發布的話就請幫我們補上去因為我相信很多民間業者或者是人民團體或者是人民本身都非常有興趣知道這個下架原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13296.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13299.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
食品違規案件產品下架回收封存銷毀階層之處理原則簡單來講這是經過106年的食品風險評估之議會專家委員的確立之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13317.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13339.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
分成十類的產品分為第一階層跟第二階層那我們一開始處理的時候是按照裡面的第八類的違反了衛生標準因為油脂類呢本評比是兩ppb所以在這樣的情形之下我們當初是以第一類的第一層的那為什麼第一層其實在整個風險評估的過程在 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13341.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13368.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
沒有問題這些其實您剛也都有做說明那我現在的問題只是說那個下架原則找不到那確保你們有把它上架我們才能夠民眾才能夠搜尋到這是第一件事那您有提到這是106發布的嘛好那我現在請教第三件事情就是說因為你們昨天7月7號下午4點開記者會嘛說那個劣油含量20%的加工產品都要下架嘛那那個今天早上域民委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13369.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13382.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
送給兩位吃的那個飯糰應該也是你們昨天公佈的預防性下降的範圍那個不是因為它那個這預飯糰是這樣如果仔細看就知道它的製造日期 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13383.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13401.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
到它的有效期限大概都3到4天我了解啦所以我們過去用到的那些有現在都不會了獨有所製造的產品要嘛就人民吃下去要嘛就集齊品已經下架了所以它不在你們昨天公佈的範圍嗎我們只是公佈讓大家所有都清楚啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13402.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13429.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
我只是一個疑問說如果它是你們昨天所公布的品項可是你的說法又是說其實它已經人民吃下肚了或者是它已經集群品已經下架那如果是這樣為什麼你們昨天又要公布它因為它已經不存在這個地球上了為什麼你們昨天公布的品名還有它我的疑問只是這樣子而已因為之前很多委員也在指教讓人民知道你有沒有吃到所以我們才會把過去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13430.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13458.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
這個通通都把它通通發布啦就是我們調查到的全部發布啦我們就不用去篩選 免得大家又覺得我們又蓋牌了什麼我在台下坐了一整個早上我只是覺得它已經不存在地球為什麼你們昨天要發布好那我了解了反正你們就是全部羅列出來那事實上人民疑慮的你說已經不存在地球了嘛獨有所產生的產品所以現在市面上的飯糰那個都不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13459.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13486.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
了解好沒有問題那第二個問題我想請教一件事就是說我一整天聽下來我感覺好像目前還沒找到原因到底是巴西豆的問題還是自成的問題你們還要再去做調查那調查的時間點可不可以先讓我們知道跟委員說明就是說因為我們把它從4月到6月底每一個留下來的樣本我們全部都驗所以等驗出來之後如果再有什麼問題我們才會去對應說它是哪一支大約的時間表 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13490.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13504.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
我知道你說好像有個東西檢驗數字明天要出現但是我的意思是找出原因大約的時間表我們的原因的調查大概到一個階段會是差不多在一個禮拜下禮拜我們這個出來之後應該下禮拜就會比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13504.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13528.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
所以大概一個禮拜一個禮拜左右我們現在這個理解一到兩個禮拜就是大約是這樣的一個時間點讓人民能夠知道到底真相是什麼那另外一件事就是說目前我們雖然不知道是A原因或B原因C原因導致的但是我們可以在後面做一些防範的措施例如說這些油脂食品它如果出產之後不管它是什麼原因所導致的可是後續如果你有做檢驗它有問題你就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13529.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13551.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
抓到他嘛那現在的問題就是說因為我們看報章雜誌知道這些業者所謂的自主管理就是每半年檢測一次嘛對不對每半年檢測一次好那現在如果每半年檢測一次每半年檢測一次然後在兩點檢測之間有一些間隔時間所產生的油脂產品如果剛好巧妙的避開這兩個時間點那有可能就會變成檢驗上的漏網之魚 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13555.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13584.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
那我現在直接就想問因為你們的這個有一個叫做什麼相關食品檢測計畫的一個規則裡頭有提到這些食品驗者其實他檢測的標準有兩個一個是每半年檢測一個是每批檢測那我觀察實務上是不是都是每半年可是你們的法規有寫AB兩個選項就是逐批那我現在的意思就是說可不可以日後改的比較嚴格一點因為法規既然有寫逐批之後可不可以改成一個逐批的方式來做檢測 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13585.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13613.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
跟委員講說明一下就是說剛剛提到有AB案的另外那個就是指說如果你的這個週期很長的那就是逐批啦你可能一個週期一年才製造一批的那種很長的那你就是逐批啦其他的過去當然是規定是半年所以從這次的經驗之後對上游的部分因為它下去之後的那個範圍很廣所以會要求逐批驗所以你們未來要 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13614.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13639.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
改成竹批現在我們目前已經先要求現行還在出貨的都是用竹批確保現在在市面上所以改善措施就是往竹批的方向前進嗎大概有兩個方向要去檢討的一個就是檢驗的頻率就是剛剛提到的這個半年是不是太長應該要縮短那麼這個批次是什麼樣的抽第二個是抽樣點 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13641.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13648.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
他到底是在什麼地方哪個節點哪個節點之於去抽樣就是那個檢驗的數字從合格變不合格然後從沒有變兩倍變四倍那我想這是今天很多委員所提出來的所以你剛講的節點檢測應該就是我接下來要提出來的問題就是節點的檢測剛剛講的是頻率還有就是節點 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13665.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13684.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
我知道那另外還有一個就是外部我要再檢討外部所以我統整一下我第二個問題就是說其實現在就是每半年或者是足批可是足批是針對週期長的那自從發生這個事之後其實那些週期短的好像用每半年這個檢驗頻率其實是有一點過長所以你們想要縮短縮短時數 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13686.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13710.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
縮短那個時間那除了縮短時間有考慮竹坯嗎因為我看有一些專家學者其實是在討論竹坯是也有考慮嗎有考慮那現在第三個問題就是你講的節點嘛有可能是那所以這個問題是取樣的方式還是取樣的樣本還是兩個都有都有考慮所以你們才考慮說要增加節點嗎節點的管制還有這個抽樣的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13710.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13732.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
了解好知道那些我想了接下來第4個問題就是我們人民感覺非常困惑而且甚至覺得非常的不能理解的就是我們剛剛一直在提的20%含量以上以下然後以上是全面下架以下是自主管理那當然昨天你們已經懸崖勒馬了因為我相信這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13734.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13746.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
處理方式其實真的是各界的檢驗其實都是非常的嚴厲的那當然你們急踩煞車但是我有注意到你們急踩煞車的原因其實您今天也說過好幾次其實並不是20%這個數字這個做法不好是實務上真的在篩選所謂20%以上20%以下實務的操作跟這個有問題 急踩有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13758.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13783.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
但我現在比較好奇的就是說因為人民一直對這個20%是感覺到有疑問的那你們說那是專家學者的建議那人民覺得是一個天兵的做法然後那個眼冒金星然後頭出現三條線那現在問題出現了就是我想要問的就是說可不可以給我們專家建議的一些資料例如說到底他的科學依據是什麼他的利潤基礎是什麼可不可以請提供會議記錄可以啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13784.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13805.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
我們提供會議記錄 提供會議記錄嗎 好OK好來那接著呢我想問一下因為今天委員很多也提到說如果都只仰賴業者自主管理自主管理恐怕這樣的案件以後還是會有發生的可能性那當然你們今天書面報告 經經報告經經的這個錯違有提到三項第一個就圓銅 第二個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13806.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13832.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
加強自主管理然後接著有提到說你們法規要去做一些修正那其實我覺得委員今天很多也提到你不能夠只仰賴業者自主管理我們主管機關的稽查責任要出來那現在呢業者呢他其實要遵守一個叫HACCP的制度只是他有沒有遵守變成是有人要去監督有人要去稽查這樣子請問一下政府在這件事上扮演的角色你們如何去稽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13833.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13836.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
你們如何去稽查業者有沒有落實HACCP |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13840.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13855.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
這個主要是在地方的就是茶廠就是HACCP它都會有定期的去稽查這個部分是由地方在執行你們應該是督導啦你們是實施 頒布一個計畫 頒布一個指引然後你們是出頭腦 他們是出手腳去做執行好 那我現在問一件事就是我們有查到113年有一個專案的稽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13865.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13884.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
總共查了58家那事實上我們去查這個主計總處發現全台灣有263家的這個動植物的這個油脂製造業那你們113年只查了58家所以比例大概是四分之一或五分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13886.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13891.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
這個稽查很重要為什麼因為這個就是去查所謂業者有沒有落實這個HACCP這樣的一個制度那現在問題出來了請問一下這個專案只查了58家母群體其實大概有263家請問選案的標準是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13903.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13916.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
我們用風險如果大型的影響大的我們查過去有違規的加強上次沒過下次我們一定再查他所以他是在風險的基礎上希望能夠達到這樣的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13917.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13939.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
所以風險基礎以有違規的為優先 為列入嘛以有違規的為列入我每一年都會針對它過去的歷史經驗去確立今年抽的而不是都是抽著來抽58對比263有沒有可能普查因為這個食安問題如果這個嚴重這麼重要我們今年度我們就全面來啟動 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13940.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13963.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
會普查那我現在問一個問題就是說請問一下我記得這個專案稽查如果沒記錯好像是107年或106年開始實施的所以到現在應該已經實施10多年了請問一下有沒有中聯專案稽查的結果過去10年或者是過去5年那中聯有沒有散進HACCP的資料有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13964.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13981.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
報告委員 我們有查確實資料的部分 容我們後面再補所以有嘛 因為我有去看你們發表其實就是食藥署發表的學術論文你們在過去的四年呢其實你們有去做稽查然後稽查有做出一個學術報告總共稽查295件那合格的是293件 不合格的是兩件而已然後你們自己下的結論是 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13988.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14007.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
可見呢 食用油脂呢 製造業者在食品品質上有相當的自主管理的水準我們覺得這個結論對照今天發生的事情顯得格外的諷刺所以我覺得Paperwork做得很漂亮那我們也不是說全面的要抹煞 只是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14008.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14036.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
從這個案件當中能夠讓你們再去看普查的結果是否客觀因為我相信你們看到這樣的結果你們也比較容易掉以輕心如果今天普查出來的結果比較例如說是29293現在對比2如果今天是50 50這樣的一個數字也許你們會比較有危機感他這樣看起來可能不知道是不是相對沒有危機感然後失去鬆懈的一個態度這樣子這是我擔心的所以也期許未來你們能夠再注意一下這一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14038.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14055.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
接著就是因為現在我相信使用到這些劣質油的受害者其實是存在的我想不管是10年前的鼎新也好或者是這些統一或者是這些強灌的油其實受害者非常的多一些小寶團體行政院小寶處也有協同這些受害的消費者來求償 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14059.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14085.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
那現在我們的那個食品安全管理法嘛其實56條之一有一個食安基金然後針對這種團體訴訟其實有律師費的補助跟這些訴訟費用的補助請問這個案件可不可以比照辦理在我們這個案件的話是在我們這個食安基金的補助的適用條件範圍內所以可以嗎可以協助所以你們未來也會展現積極的態度嗎就是商請行政院小寶處來協助消費者求償這個案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14089.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14114.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
如果是依法條的話是由地方政府處理團體如果有團體訴訟的時候是應該是你們跟行政院小寶處還有小寶團體中間應該有一些連結性跟一些督導性所以我們只是想跟你們確認說中央主管機關在這邊協助的一些也許不是第一線的角色但是後面的監督角色push的角度角色應該要呈現出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14116.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14133.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
因為這其實有潛力有非常多潛力那個食藥署都有介入然後行政院小寶處有介入然後最後成功都是成功成功的案例那最後就請這個部長跟衛福部這邊可不可以一個月給我們一下書面資料就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14134.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14151.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
我想我第一個問題剛剛其實已經得到一個答案了就是43頓有掌握其他應該都是流向不明的就是但是還是希望你們能夠再盡一點力看能不能再追出一些劣質油因為你把它追出來至少在市面上流竄的會相對的變少 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14153.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14178.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
所以但是我還是希望你們能夠再去思考到底因回收量多少以使用量多少有辦法推估以使用量嗎沒辦法嗎聽起來流向不明已經沒辦法了嗎好那也希望你們這邊能夠再做一些說明那如果有一些新的數字再做更新那自來有的原因剛也請你們再給我們書面資料那還有檢驗原因不易的原因這些部長也都答應我那20%的利潤基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14180.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14205.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
專案集合選案的標準是什麼然後過去五年集合中聯的這些專案稽查的項目跟結果剛剛那個食藥署署長也表示會提供那團體訴訟表示依法會補助然後再加上也在協助這個消費者求償這個過程當中也會跟行政院消保處有一個比較積極的角色出現這些都沒問題的可以一個月之後給我們回覆資料謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14209.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14210.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
主席好啊我先請防疫署請防疫署 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14253.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14266.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
好 我請問一下這個美國進口馬鈴薯是用新規定的第一批什麼時候到台灣呃 我原來 我你們都不知道啊 那你來幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14268.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14277.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
我們今天就是誰說我不能問這個沒有沒有我請教你什麼時候進來六月中那我請教昨天他的院長當時有到現場去這個視察嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14289.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14301.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
他不是說在公開場合說這個邊境檢查要逐科檢查馬鈴薯有沒有發芽結果到現在第一批一貨進來了最該被用放大鏡檢視的時候他人在現場嗎他也沒去 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14303.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14321.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
包圍也沒有對啊 院長說的自己逐科結果DP進來他連影都沒看到這個一方面證明自己就是騙子一方面也順便證明民進黨政府在面對重大食安跟貿易政策就是口號治國欺騙人民那我再請食安辦你請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14328.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14352.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
主任好 食安辦當初成立的目的就是在重大食安事件發生時第一時間統合各部會應變我請問中聯郵紙本評比事件食藥署6月30日就知道郵品有問題了為什麼從6月30到7月7號陳時中政委才召開第一次跨部會會議我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14356.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14380.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
一直都有在做相關的這一個跨部會的所以你是各自啟動嗎 還是不是 就是我們我們實案辦事在請教一下 7月7號會議決定的事情衛福部下架教育部查學校 法務部偵辦這些事情是不是各部會在7月7日之前就已經在做了有一些事情是 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14384.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14408.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
應該怎麼講我們隨時保持也就是沒有聯絡嘛對不對那這個會議就是為了發揮你們應該有的這個統整協調功能還是只是因為這個我們盧昭偉今天裁案了之後你們應付昭偉裁排的這個這個這個臨時過場不會我們其實各部會都在做政委的會議是聽取各部會報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14409.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14433.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
你告訴我啦 食安辦成立十幾年了到現在才知道以炙用火才知道重大食安事件要開跨部會議所以你這個辦公室到底是食安辦還是等通知辦我們都有在開跨部會的會議平常沒有事件發生我們也要開會也要常常去討論因為各部會你討論的結果都沒有結果嘛我們請這個江署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14439.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14453.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
有請江市長安在你們對外釋放的資訊食藥署在6月30號知道中年油脂的油品有問題那賴清德總統跟卓榮泰院長是什麼時候知道的 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14455.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14473.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
我們針對我們6月30號知道7月1號知道的我們其實在部裡面做統計你就是說這個中央政府我們各部會都是同一個時間知道的是這樣嗎我們就向上呈報希望讓部裡面知道知道之後7月3號賴總統去寵物場吃狗糧 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14478.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14495.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
7月4號有可能影響學校團善的業者然後嘉義部長鄭英耀去新竹輔選同場原本石部長要一起去的換經濟部長谷明新去幫一個候選人站台兩位在石岸事件都沒有他們都沒試做嗎7月4號總統台還跑去這個嘉義佈置看屠宰場回頭發言感謝我們參與委員爭取那7月6號 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14508.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14526.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
總統跟主任院長才對媒體發社群的這個天文表示對IU的這個關注啊這樣的補償安排在知道這個食安事件發生而且還在繼續延燒的情況下讓部會首長繼續輔選行程總統吃狗糧總院長看屠宰場這是在告訴國人人民的食安問題比豬狗都還不如嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14538.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14549.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
我請你回去轉達下次重大食安這個發生的時候請總統把狗糧放下請院長從屠宰場回來總統院院長昨天也說了他在7月3號 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14552.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14575.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
召集衛福部跟食藥署開會確認第二層下游廠商到底有多少家當時你們說一開始說224家後來說291家後來又變成257家到最後是360家也就是說左院長那天已經知道名單需要整理也知道這個事情會影響消費者知情權沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14576.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14602.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
跟委員做報告因為我們持續由地方各個衛生局協助匯報回來所以匯報時間我們用第一個時間把裡面的加速能夠讓持續累積之後確認下游的民災問題你們說沒有辦法第一時間掌握嗎那我請教一下現在的食品雲在重大食安事件裡面他到底能夠做到哪一步 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14611.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14635.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
跟委員說明因為這個我們當然食品雲會去追蹤他的這個要求要登錄的源頭啦那麼但是這個事情發生之後呢因為有他的第一層到第二層就是源頭的中聯到福壽福茂跟泰山那這些呢我們可以馬上就掌握但是接下來再往下的好那麼這個就要透過這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14636.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14656.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
我看到你們基本資料跟資訊部分追溯資料我聽起來就是什麼都有但是什麼都不夠啦我問一個具體的情境假如今天下午2點實驗室確認某個批號的擁有問題請問實驗室是不是可以在30分鐘之內直接從食品源系統裡面拉出一個清單 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14658.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14672.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
有哪些下游業者哪些產品使用的這批油哪些超商通路上架哪些便當店飯糰沙拉醬需要立即下架30分鐘內可以做到嗎跟委員說明我們剛剛講的是這個製程過程的這個我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14679.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14703.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
雲啊 這個食品雲是最製造的流程因為它製造裡面有原料端是哪裡然後到哪一個端所以我們到第一層剛剛我提到中聯然後到這個福壽 泰山 這個福茂這個我們可以清楚所以現在嘛 就食用署的現在只能用這個人工撈資料業者提供什麼就核對什麼這種的原始方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14703.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14710.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
我們會去比對就是原始的方式嘛對不對業者的資料沒有跟政府的系統對接嗎有沒有對接 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14712.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14739.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
販售端沒有辦法就是他在往下了就比如說泰山哎唷賣給誰那個是販售行為如果是這樣這套食品園要做什麼過去幾輪啊花了十億的經費建一隻食品園遇到重大時代問題你哪有馬上掌握勒連即時追蹤與鎖定的能力都沒有啊我們立刻可以掌握到他往下的這一層你們說一直宣導啊宣導我們電子化管理啊AI內閣全部都是空的 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14741.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14753.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
你跟我講這個定位叫什麼叫做定位實驗可以蓋好幾間的這個校舍可以買很多這個檢驗儀器可以徵聘多少稽查人力結果你拿去做一個加強版的公三公計系統而已啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14756.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14767.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
這個施平剛剛跟委員報告我們當然繼續來精進不過之前的這個設計主要是從製程的流程上的監測我請你問江署長7月3號你出來開記者會那我請問你當天決定不公佈名單是卓永泰院長的才是嗎這邊跟委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14778.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14807.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
因為針對要怎麼去管理的我們是針對106年食品安全風險評估之議會下架原則按照這個原則我只問7月3號當天是誰才是不公布的我想我們是按照過去不要講按照原則在去做那天是誰開板的嗎這個是我在整個會議裡面院長有表示反對嗎院長有沒有要求你們先公布已經確認的名單 有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14807.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14831.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
我們先知道管理的原則在哪一個階段沒有嘛 院長就是在場又是召集人沒有他的同意 你當然不敢講啊對不對你們現在幫他洗白不是嗎我再次的跟委員說明因為我們要處理的回去告訴院長不要推給專家也不要推給我們下屬他自己做的決定他自己扛好不好那我再請關務署 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14835.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14841.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
今年第一批 從巴西進口的黃肉什麼時候進口幾月幾日到港關我手 副組長委員好 您詢問的這個資料可不可以事後再提問我們都沒什麼準備 你今天來質詢幹什麼來備詢幹什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14860.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14880.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
對不對今年有多少自由業者從巴西進口黃豆公司名稱跟進口數量是多少你們都沒掌握那這些現在出了事你們都還掌握不了那這些巴西的黃豆分別來自哪個出口商哪個國際糧商又有從哪個港口或是糧商出口的你們都沒有那中聯爲止4月4號生產這批問題油使用的巴西黃豆是哪一天進口的哪一艘船 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14891.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14909.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
哪一張報單哪一個出口商哪一個港口你們都掌握了嗎食藥署現在把問題可能之一的調查方向都指向這個巴西狂鬥中聯這批狂鬥是不是跟其他油脂業者同一時期同一出口商同一港口甚至同一船進口的 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14913.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14932.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
對不對你們什麼都沒掌握我們要說明一下就是黃豆進口的時候因為在邊境要通過那個主管機關的輸入規定的檢查所以他們都是你這個講我聽不懂那個那個這你現在講的這個你把資料再拿給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14933.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14955.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
南韓部長你們7月6號邀集大統一中聯台堂還有常輝四大油廠開會要求未來對進口黃豆原料採族傳或族批的檢驗那針對以後這是針對以後但為什麼沒有追四大廠以前的這個檢驗數據你們現在是既往不就展望未來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14957.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
14972.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
對中聯的部分呢我們是從4月一直到6月30號的這中間的批次的樣本我們都全面再重驗一遍他過去他的自主檢驗有留下的樣本我們都重驗因為四大廠一年大概可以產出50到60萬噸的大豆油嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
14974.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
14984.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
你近年只抽了275件這個數字已經可以忽略不計實在不應該拿出來講275件對60萬噸你告訴我這個叫抽檢還是裝模作樣475件那個是指後市長的檢驗那我們現在當然除了剛剛提到對中聯去回溯他的這些這個檢驗之外我們重驗之外那另外對其他三個廠我們也提高我們的監測了 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15004.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15031.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
那以前就是讓廠商自己說有沒有合格嘛那當然合格的數字到底是多少是檢驗極限的0.1還是剛好低或略過的1.8你不知道我也看不到啊全台灣的消費者更看不到拿大同一來講市佔率三成到四成五全台灣的雞排店地瓜球攤食品加工廠幾乎全靠它你不能在不確定有沒有風險的時候就認定沒有問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15033.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15047.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
那過去這三個月半年來源是巴西黃豆煉出來的油我要求你比照中年的標準其他三大廠今年的進口的每一批的這個巴西黃豆生產的每一批的流量油重新送檢可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15050.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15070.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
然後把這個數據公佈給國人我們來進一步的抽驗實際上最大的問題就是我們政府的鴕鳥心態你不讓民眾有知的權利那我現在要求進口的黃豆原料族傳或族批來做檢驗根據食藥署自己公告的食品多環芳香 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15071.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15090.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
竹炭氫化合物的檢驗方法這套方法是設計來驗已經提煉出來的油脂成品那生黃豆是固體裡面有蛋白質纖維這個脂肪還有直接這套的你直接用這一套的方法去驗萃取的效率根本不夠啊驗出來這個數據會準確嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15096.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15108.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
跟委員說明針對黃豆這個原料如何確定它的所謂扁平筆這個方法我們是積極的在做開發但是我們已經覺得我們是可以做這個我們已經可以去做這個方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15113.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15134.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
有有新的方法沒有只是我們現在有這個方法我們已經那天的報告就說可以報告是沒問題可以驗現在的自主檢驗是業者把檢體送去第三方民間實驗室例如這個SGS然後報告出來之後先回到業者的手上對不對是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15136.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15153.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
好那業者拿到的數據如果發現快超標了比如說驗出6.6或8.9他們可以先選擇先不主動上報然後去調整下一批的製程等到數據降下來才應付稽查或拿別的樣品去驗你也不知道啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15154.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15178.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
你會知道嗎所以跟委員說明所以未來我們會去要求對於外部送檢的部分要同步給一份報告給主管機關我認為啦食藥署應該要強制規定資本的3000萬以上的油脂廠檢體只要一進入認證實驗室化驗結果必須透過系統第一時間同步直接自動盲傳回到這個食藥署的大數據庫中 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15181.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15194.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
然後中間不容許有業者有任何的經手知情充換報告的這種時間差才能真正做到這個防偽與透明你們做得到嗎?做得到嗎?可以 這個我們來這個我們要講話這個外部檢驗的 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15198.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15223.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
數據直連之後系統必須啟動統計製程管制的預警像這次事件一級致癌物BAP的歷史背景這個值都在0.5到0.7左右後來衝到1.6系統就應該在還沒破表之前自動亮燈然後主管機關就要求業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15224.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15242.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
立刻暫停該縣的經驗那徹查高溫脫臭的交換系統有沒有漏油對不對我覺得你們要做到這一點不是等每一次失火了才抓那個一萬公里以外的巴西黃豆來當代罪羔羊 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15243.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15271.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
那第三個如果建立連線系統政府就能夠動態比對海關邊境的沖淹數據跟工廠成品自主檢驗數據一比對發現原料零成品卻連續幾個因為維持高檔的時候系統就立刻能判定問題的所在地所在的這個地方台灣本土製程中直接這個就可以讓我們的稽查員去精準抓漏 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15272.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15297.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
好不好我希望你們把這個做到我們來研究一下這個因為臺灣有六成以上的餐飲在食品加工和飼料都綁在這條油脂巨頭的供應鏈上結果到最後你們把你們的食安把關是建立在自發良心我覺得這是非常危險的部長政府花了這麼多年建食品園推食安五環成立食安辦結果還是要靠業者自己發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15301.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15324.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
你對得起國人嗎這我們會去強化再如何再去強化外部的監測我希望你們建立的是食安制度不是許願制度好吧會會謝謝謝謝邱政軍委員的諮詢宣告待會在陳昭之委員詢問答完畢後休息30分鐘現在請黃秀芳委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15331.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15332.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
謝謝主席我們請部長請施部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15338.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15363.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
好 歡迎您好 部長好部長 我記得在上禮拜四我在質詢的時候也有特別提到就是說這個使用有出現這樣的一個問題那當然我們當時還不是不是那麼清楚就會覺得說那是下游廠商這個南橋那個發現 然後這個通報嘛那結果我們今天看的是南橋它知道之後它還是繼續製造 繼續販賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15365.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15386.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
所以我就覺得說這個整個系統我覺得真的都是出現問題了那除了就是說中聯油脂有這樣的一個問題之外那其他三大家製造油脂的這個三大廠你們目前的你們去查廠或者是說你們去檢驗的這個頻率我覺得都要一致啦因為你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15387.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15415.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
影響的到消費者影響的這個程度真的是非常的嚴重那我想請教就是說部長從你們得知這個訊息之後到現在也一個多禮拜的時間那你們到底做了什麼跟委員說明當然除了針對這個中聯的油品我們去趕快去串聯出他的所有的下游的商品讓這個資訊能夠公開透明讓所有的消費者知道之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15415.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15438.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
那當然對於這個發生什麼問題要搞清楚才能夠去做我們之後的強化所以我們回去把它從4月到6月底的所有的它的樣本通通再重驗一遍這個明天的報告就會出來了來釐清到底在哪個環節出了問題哪一些有沒有還有其他的批次有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15439.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15454.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
所以這個是針對這個中聯這裡我們做的這些事情那第二個呢當然對於其他的還有另外的這個三家業者我們也找來了把我們這個發現到的這些有可能的問題要強化他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15454.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15471.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
的監測所以他們現在開始採逐批檢驗所以這個地方來確保在市面上再出來的是安全的那另外我們也會去處理的就是後市場的部分也去請衛生局加強除了這個下架之外也加強後市場的這個檢驗抽檢大概就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15476.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15495.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
那我想請教部長就是說原本你們應該也是信任業者就是自主管理結果你現在出了這樣的一個問題那你現在還相信就是說業者現在逐批檢驗那逐批檢驗他的資料就是檢驗結果是怎樣是怎麼給你們的目前是怎麼給你們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15496.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15525.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
那也跟委員說明大概我們之前設計的這是三級品管一級就是它自主檢驗它要定期的去檢驗那這個自主檢驗的頻率現在變成逐批嗎對 我們的頻率還有檢驗抽樣的這個節點等等這些我們現在會重新再檢討這個是第一級的部分那第二級的話應該是屬於所謂第三方檢驗所以他們也會去送地方第三方檢驗是 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15526.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15551.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
是定期的並不是逐批的逐批的是指它內部的第一個自主檢驗那第二個是這個第三方檢驗就是外部檢驗的部分我們現在是要需要研議的是如何讓第三方的檢驗的報告可以直接回到中央因為現在的前面的通報慢了嘛他們延遲的通報那事實上那個第三方檢驗是知道的 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15552.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15578.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
只是说他把这个报告回到了业者那业者就隐匿没有报所以如果我们在第三方检验的部分直接跟中央是连着或跟地方的主管机关就是跟地方主管机关可以直接掌握到第一个检验报告出来异常那这样我们就他不通报我们也可以介入所以第二个我们要检讨的是第三方检验的资讯流 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15579.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15607.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
要直接串到我們的這個地方主管這個我們現在在研究做這件事情需要多久的時間應該很快我們至少可以先要求這個這個資本通報未來再採用系統通報就資訊系統通報那資本通報只要異常他就要通報就不需要透過業者委託的業者直接就要通報主管機關這個我們近期就會做出這個檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15608.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15627.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
那第三個當然就是後市場檢驗這個第三級那後市場的部分過去我們確實也做了這四年來也做了兩百多件那驗出來呢也都是核標所以我們也會去有這個事件之後呢也先加強了這個後市場要去抽驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15627.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15650.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
其實我覺得源頭管理是最重要的就是說這個油脂製造完之後賣到這個下油這個源頭是最重要的所以源頭的部分我們就是最上油的這個製造廠到底這一次的這個問題是出在製程的哪一個地方還是原料的問題我們要先把它搞清楚搞清楚之後我們才能知道說那我們是要加強這個原料 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15652.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15663.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
還是製程的穩定的問題那才有辦法提出對策來預防下一次的發生好 所以這個要多久的時間才可以確定說到底是製程的問題還是原料應該一兩個禮拜內我們就要把這個問題釐清了這樣好 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15667.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15695.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
其實這個食用油出現問題其實會變成消費者的很大的一個恐慌每天每個人吃的東西多多少少都一定會有這樣的油不論是炸的或者是任何東西炒菜什麼都一定會用到嘛那消費者他會想要知道就是說我今天用的這些油到底安不安全所以剛剛我聽其他委員在質詢那部長也有特別提到目前市面上的所有的油都是安全的嗎我們目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15696.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15713.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
已經確認的就是這一批這個中聯的有問題的現在都已經完成那其他的啊那現在我們是查到哪裡我們就會因為我們現在擴大擴大查驗了嘛所以只要一查有問題我們就會立刻對外宣布所以對市面上所有的這個食用油你們現在也都會 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15714.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15732.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
擴大去查驗我們現在正在擴大查驗就剛剛提到的除了中中聯的還有很多批次嘛所以我們會全部清一遍擴大不是只有那一個那個南橋驗出有問題的那個其他像那個什麼大統一台湯啊那個我們也就加強那個監測對 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15734.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15756.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
所以對於他們所賣到下游廠商製造出來的這些食用油你們會不會也去我們接著就是要也是會驗這另外三家的我覺得應該是要同步啦對同步都會進行應該是同步啦我們是先針對中聯的然後再其他三家的中聯這個食用油出包那其他的那個大統一他的生產的這個食用油其實比這個中聯還要多耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15757.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15779.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
他們現在已經先採逐批查驗了只是說往前的部分我們再回去抽他過去的批次現在往後的呢他往後的都已經用逐批查驗的方式我希望就是說在市面上所有的食用油就也請部長這邊還有署長這邊真的要更積極趕快儘快把這個有問題的油趕快揪出來到底是原料的關係或者是製程的關係我覺得應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15787.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15812.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
要競速啦要不然你這樣子市面上民眾他都會恐慌我現在到底要不要買或者是我要買什麼牌子的油甚至我買的這個牌的油其實它的上游就是中聯那還不是一樣所以我覺得我們衛福部跟食藥署這邊最重要就是要讓所有的民眾他能夠很放心我現在買的油它是安全的我吃到的東西它是安全的 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15814.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15830.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
我們的目標就是這樣所以我們才會持續在擴大一直在檢驗當中部長我想請教就是說上禮拜我們在詢問的時候那時候覺得說那是南橋他發現的結果發現說南橋他也當他發現這個油脂有問題他還是繼續生產繼續賣那也沒有通報你們對不對一開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15839.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15864.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
沒有通報對 沒有通報所以我那時候就在懷疑就是說其實應該就是他們應該很早就知道了那因為是油真的非常的大量可能他們知道可能就1300公噸這麼多的油那怎麼辦只好繼續繼續賣繼續製造那時候我的猜測是這樣子啦可是我覺得說大概我們希望衛福部跟食藥署發生這樣的問題應該要趕快就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15869.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
15891.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
讓民眾安心那是不是有隱匿就是說既然都已經知道了然後他也不通報那也不預防性的下架那像這樣子的話我想請教那個部長跟署長那這個要怎麼辦你們有啟動就為什麼既然都已經知道了那你還不通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
15893.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
15921.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
對所以我們也除了這個中聯我們先做出這個重罰之外那其他的也由地方政府再去了解這些下游的就是這三家這個泰山還有這個福茂福壽那麼他們何時得知之後他有沒有繼續販賣如果還是有繼續這樣的試食出貨販賣的話那也一樣會給予重罰可是目前看是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
15923.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
15949.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
對 要移清楚之後就會對 我覺得就是說中聯他竟然中聯有指他竟然是泰山福壽跟福茂這三家就是合資嘛那我覺得說第一時間竟然難巧知道我覺得他應該也會通報給這三家至少應該也會跟他們知會一下那這既然知道了那既然都還不通報對 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
15950.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
15969.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
我覺得這個真的要好好的去查那當然我們都是原本都是這個衛福部食藥署都信任這個業者能夠自主管理可是經過今天的這樣的一個事件的發生我相信大家對這一層相信信任自主管理我覺得大家都要打一個問號了 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
15971.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
15989.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
所以部長未來這個部分我覺得你們也要對於自主管理這部分我覺得真的不能再相信業者就是說他能夠自主管理所以對於這個不遵守我們要求的那當然要重罰但是我們也會再建立外部的監測強化這個外部的監測機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
15992.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16012.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
好那部長如果接下來就是說萬一是製程也好或者是說黃豆原料出問題如果今天是黃豆原料出問題的話那你們會啟動什麼樣的譬如說啟動茶廠或是到原料廠可能到巴西去茶廠有可能這樣做嗎或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16013.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16041.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
或者是你們有什麼樣的作為因為這個黃豆進來的用途很多啦不只是只有這個煉油嘛所以做煉油的部分如果這個是原料要加強管控那我們就會在原料的部分要求要一樣要檢驗而不是只有油品的本身檢驗還有檢驗的方法我們就會提供因為黃豆製品非常非常的多不是只有油我們日常生活吃的很多都是黃豆製品 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16042.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16064.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
早上吃的這個豆漿豆腐什麼黃豆的製品真的非常的多那萬一如果是這個黃豆出問題的話那對於其他除了油脂會有影響那其他的東西會有影響嗎當然過去我們黃豆在邊境有在抽驗那主要抽驗的話就會以農藥黃麴毒素這些真的是我們認為是比較有影響的 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16068.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16088.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
這個今天出現的這個VAP這個是油脂這邊產生的所以這個是另外一個管理的模式是在製造端所以邊境端是針對黃豆本身的品質那後面這個是在製程當中可能產生的致癌物質的管理這是兩件事情都要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16089.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16114.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
那部長我想再請教一下就是說我們剛剛講的那個市場的這個抽驗那市場的抽驗我希望就是說這個衛福部食藥署這邊能夠一個更公開讓民眾可以隨時就可以得知就是說你們今天查到什麼然後就是哪幾個這個產品是有問題的我覺得是應該要更公開讓民眾能夠更了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16117.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16142.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
只要查驗一有問題我們都會要求資訊會公開然後後面會採取下架的措施接下來我想再請教一下因為中聯油脂它佔的市佔率就40%其他三家就佔30%剛剛講的四大油脂公司中聯油脂目前是停產的 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16143.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16156.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
目前是停止生產嘛對不對好那我想請教就是說那你停止生產那後面我不知道他要停多久就是可能要找到原因之後才有可能再恢復那這個未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16159.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16184.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
這個其他三家在製造這個油脂那這個會不會未來會不會有缺油的這個狀況或者是現在有一些這個畜牧業者他們就擔心就是說飼料會不會有影響所以我想請教部長就是說目前我們的這個中聯油脂目前是停產的那其他三家所生產出來這些油脂足夠我們台灣我們國人來使用嗎所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16187.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16205.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
所以當然就是說因為他這個市佔率高所以剩下這三家務必我們會請他們多增加產量但是我們也會強化那個監測那麼當然第二個這個中聯的部分我們也會盡快的把這個原因釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16206.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16221.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
因為他畢竟他的產量在這個特別是他還有他的那些炸油之後的這些豆渣還是作為飼料使用的有這個需求所以我們會趕快釐清然後確認原因在哪裡製程都改善完畢之後讓他復工 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16223.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16248.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
所以這個要等到這些都安全沒有問題的才讓他復工是好那我們也希望就是說未來不要有缺油的這樣子的狀況因為畢竟他的市占率有40%那如果他現在停產那等他可以整個安全之後復產之後這個會不會造成市場的一些波動我希望就是說部長針對市場端你應該也要去監測會不會有缺油的這個狀況好 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16252.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16267.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
那個農業部就是有關這個飼料的這個部分應該也要因為有一些畜牧業者有這樣的一個反應那我想請教你們後續會啟動什麼樣的因應方式跟委員報告我們大概禮拜一已經有找我們這個幾家業者有來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16269.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16290.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
那其中有兩家會增加兩成的一個生產量那其他的部分我們會用是要配方像譬如像全豆黃豆粉還有我們玉米酒泡還有玉米蛋白等等這些來替代那也會盡速把這些可以做的做一個地方可以去連結讓我們業者也可以知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16291.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16309.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
好好謝謝好那部長我再次就是麻煩真的要盡速查明原因那趕快把這個狀況查明之後讓國人能夠安心好不好好好沒有問題我們全力來做好謝謝黃秀芳委員的諮詢現在請陳昭之委員諮詢謝謝主席再麻煩部長跟署長江署長有請施部長江署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16322.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16345.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
部長跟江說我知道你們今天很辛苦也很不好受但是畢竟一個一級致癌物出現在食用油裡面一級致癌物的意思就是確定會在人體引起癌症那而且超標四倍這是很嚴重的事情那事情已經過一星期了我心中還有很多疑問我想要請教現在衛福是不是可以跟國人說清楚那第一個問題就是說這個中聯4月8號到10號 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16349.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16353.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
已經出貨了1300公噸但是他到4月13號才去送檢驗這是第一個問題為什麼可以先出貨再檢驗這是第一個問題那麼第二個問題他第一次檢驗交出來的我們看到的是1.6那為什麼當這個6月的時候出了問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16370.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16385.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
那南橋反應之後他把他是出貨流量哦很多人不理解就是當初出的貨的那一批的流量他撤出來的時候他跑到愛知味去做了他不是個認定的機關但是他是可以做的他是超標就變成4.68就是超標兩倍同一批哦 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16388.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16397.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
然後等到6月15號中年把同一批流樣同一批流樣送到這個再送去到SGS檢驗結果這次高達8.1是4倍好那我要請教的第二個問題說請問同一批的樣品為什麼從他覺得沒有問題然後變成兩倍高然後變成4倍高這是我第二個問題第三個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16413.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16436.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
那就請問這個檢驗到底是樣品取樣有問題還是檢驗方法有問題這個要思考的第四個SGS怎麼檢驗的它是可以檢驗很多次它是一開始檢驗真的沒問題呢還是拼命檢驗很多次找到一個終於找到一個沒問題了然後就交出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16437.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16447.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
有可能是這樣啊因為檢驗本來就不只做一次啊你有懷疑可以再做啊所以我現在有四個問題你今天應該是沒有辦法回答我對不對因為你沒有講過這個資料對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16450.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16474.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
有部分我們是當然這個檢驗的部分它是可以自驗有實驗室的因為我們要求一定的量可以先出貨再檢驗嗎可以先出貨再檢驗嗎第一個問題可以嗎我先賣出去了我才做檢驗可以嗎這個之前不行嘛要檢驗OK安全才出去對不對署長委員讓我稍微做數目因為整個的檢驗跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16479.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16492.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
他是在六個月內我們是規定的一定要驗所以他內部的其實是一劑一劑的但是我們在場裡上嘛你先賣掉了嘛啊我才檢驗說是Random所以我們要確認他是不是同一批同一批對是不是同一批這是原則藥品跟食品都一樣你不是拿南橋的那個東西拿去做檢驗是拿很多人不懂是源頭的東西丟在那邊我們必須拿當時製造的同一批出來做檢驗這才叫檢驗報告委員我們這個部分其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16509.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16514.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
沒有逐一檢驗所以後續的檢調已經介入說那個部分其實是有的所以為什麼我檢調為什麼同一批東西一次說沒有一次兩倍一次四倍嘛那第三個就是說那一定我認為檢測有問題嘛要去檢你們要去了解這個部分嘛到底是取樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16528.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16541.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
有問題還是取樣那誰來做你又取樣你又檢驗嗎還是廠商取樣然後那個檢驗室去檢驗呢這個問題學問很多然後第四個對不對那可以檢驗很多次他是不是好不容易等到一次正常的 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16543.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16551.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
第三個部分因為它是連續製程到底在哪一店是不確定的那第四個SGS的時候因為這是認證的實驗室對於他們整個的認證的規則其實是我們目前是能夠接受所以我們會去確認它當初是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16559.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16587.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
所以這四個問題很重要那現在大家已經提到這個大豆原料那我在想說那我請問中聯油脂進入這個他拿到大豆原料以後他在製作大豆沙拉油之前檢驗過嗎他為什麼不檢驗有沒有檢驗有沒有資料他買東西要來賣歷史的資料裡面他是有檢驗他有檢驗不是每一批有檢驗但是有看到他有檢驗的那過去的檢驗我們看到的是有看到報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16588.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
16603.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
好那第一個我先了解他有沒有檢驗那4月13號我剛剛強調嘛我覺得先出貨再檢驗是不沒道理的但是在JP13號出去的這個真的到底是沒有驗出來還是一直驗到沒有問題他才把報告寫出來呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16605.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16626.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
這個部分 我可以懷疑嘛 我可以合理懷疑嘛後續的話 我們看到報告也需要檢調來協助我們是不是好不容易等到一次可以看的 可以見人拿出來嘛對不對 這個就是說到底誰在隱匿 誰在說謊 誰在造假這個部分 我想就這個部分請你給我一份報告 可以吧 我們可以了解吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
16627.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
16642.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
那這個我要跟在部分講就是說當時1300公噸的流向署長您談了一個最終濃度然後後來你又說20%含量做界限管理但是我還是請你們我再提醒一下你這個食安法 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
16643.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
16658.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
麻煩你們看時長碼那個頭影片上第15條第一項第三款食品或食品添加物有下列形式後面根本就不能再做了所以它不是含量多少的問題不得製造加工調配等等等等第三項就是有毒它當然有毒啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
16659.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
16686.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
Benzopyrine就是一級自來物但是報告委員它是我引用這個法規它在衛生安全標準裡面它的製程各方面有一個容許的量是2ppb那我們在想說就算你認為這個過程當中也許產生的東西無害那我們三個人都是這個醫學教育體系出身的我來問一下一個藥品一個藥品在還沒有確定它完全安全之前你要假設它是不安全的 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
16687.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
16703.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
還是一個藥品在沒有經過完全的這個臨床試驗證實他不安全的我們就認為他是安全這個邏輯非常的重要所以當你們認為20%以下可能沒有問題的時候你們忘掉了我們在學校學的東西這樣講可以接受嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
16704.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
16719.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
跟委員說明其實製藥過程也有類似的情形他也沒有做到逐批檢驗啦一樣的道理他也都是檢驗方法是一個我剛剛在講那個重要的觀念必要不進行說證實他安全之前你要當作他不安全嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
16720.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
16741.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
那這個是一個叫做那這個呢是在談的是那個這個叫做容許標準我現在進來另外一個邏輯嘛因為你們當時覺得二十七市之後就沒問題嘛但是這個是一個思考而已嘛但是我說要很小心嘛就是在這個容許量的概念我們現在的管理上有兩種一種叫零檢出那我覺得這個也是檢驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
16747.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
16756.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
檢驗因為三道嘛你如果自主檢驗然後這個委外檢驗然後這個再加上最後抽驗那如果前面兩道目前是破功所以是不是就是說衛福部將來是不是你這個後面的那個抽驗你要稍微改變要提前去做一些介入剛剛請說委員也提到嘛這個三道把關但是還是出問題嘛所以第四到第三把關是在政府機關啦所以是不是也要想想看這個地方怎麼改變啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
16773.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
16801.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
然後現在你們這個1300公噸目前查到43公噸43公噸沒錯是佔3.3%你我都有基本的統計學基礎嘛小於5%就是好像沒有嘛就是沒查到嘛都沒有追回來嘛才300%100才找回3就是沒有所以真的是已經遍佈全國了啦那我要再談一件事說剛剛有委員問到溯源你知道食安的最重要精神是什麼呢可溯源 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
16803.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
16814.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
為什麼要有標章 為什麼台黨就要標章你如果沒辦法溯源的話那這個慈安的精神就不見了最後我要講的就是說南橋啦部長你講很快的啦我先跟你講 南橋我一個都不認識我也不知道他是誰開的但是南橋這次你強調說中聯要法那南橋這個基本上其實是這樣子因為他發現這個檢疫有問題的時候他 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
16827.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
16841.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
他理論上要跟你們報告我知道但是他是先報告了他的那個向由因為這樣子就是說如果最後證實不是因為他非常有問題證實不是的話他在商業上有法律責任所以他報告給這個扶壽 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
16843.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
16847.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
那其實真正拖延的我認為啦這是我的觀點真正拖延的是福壽跟中聯啦不然你如果說你的處罰我不是說他不能處罰你如果這樣子的話等於是放個吹哨者你要他承擔所有的責任啊因為以前說的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
16859.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
16883.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
跟他說好像大家都這個要罰這個要罰那以後是不是寒蟬效應關這我不要講這次如果不是南橋出來我跟你講我們都不知道吃多久了我也不相信只有4月才有發生我也已經不再相信了好嗎就是說有關這個但是呢他驗出來有問題的時候他如何看待他自己的產品有沒有繼續銷售這個事情還是需要剛剛我提到就是說因為在商業責任這個我完全不認識 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
16889.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
16904.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
讓他馬上報告他上游廠商嘛那讓他們再去做確認嘛那這個上游廠商為什麼就放那麼久我的意思說輕重不依啦就是你在處罰就是但是他如何去處理他的產品這個是重點但今天不是他 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
16905.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
16928.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
你會知道這件事嗎 今天會犯賣的產品他都是有責任的所以他是在販賣所以他如果驗出有問題的時候那他怎麼去處理他的商品這個是需要今天不是這個事情出來我們都不會以為都沒事兩位署長請思考一下我今天這個質詢的一些重點謝謝兩位署長 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
16931.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
16935.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
好 謝謝陳昭之委員的諮詢現在休息 休息到1點45分再開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
18843.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
18843.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
現在繼續開會我們請劉建國委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
18868.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
18894.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
好 謝謝主席 有請部長還有署長有請施部長 姜署長部長處理食安問題不能像拍連續劇啊硬要不可以奧義勞拓平啊依你跟署長兩位基本上你們在處理事情都是很積極然後反應還有反正在處理很多事情的過程裡面我覺得你們都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
18896.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
18920.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
都是有一定程度的這樣的一個經驗跟能力啦所以我這次看整個這個這個中油油品事件我是看出一些不是像你們過去的這個在整個在推動相關還是應變事件的情況之下該有的這樣的一個作為我覺得是不是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
18922.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
18948.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
有底下提供不實的訊息還是造成一些誤導今天我想從早一直到現在很多委員都有提出從各個面向去對你們提出質疑或是說對你們提出相關的一些批判那食安辦的主任也都在那我想我想這樣我從一個角度來看我們就對照我們對照蘇丹紅 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
18949.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
18972.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
我們對折蘇丹的時候 當時處理速度怎麼樣中國的油品市場在第一十日 七月二號FDA宣布下架第一層的產品嘛 對不對好 七月三號十二點 未完成下架就開滑嘛七月五號擴大下架第二層 調味油及含油二十趴以上六號 二十四點 十二點 凌晨十二點以前要完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
18974.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
18983.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
這個二層的下架那7月8號只要用到油品全部預防性下架這間中間就一個禮拜了你過去AODA在處理這個蘇丹紅它是被國際認定是第三級的致癌物我們現在處理的是第一級的致癌物 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
19000.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
19028.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
然後當時是要求這個蘇丹紅相關的這些製品原化妝品通通要下架喔通通要下架但我剛剛被提到病病筆是國際認定第一起自來物食藥署當時說因為蘇丹紅是額外添加的這一次病病筆不是而且製成產品就稀釋到安全值所以不用下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
19029.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
19050.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
部長你覺得你能接受嗎?社會大眾可以接受嗎?因為部長你不能接受,社會大眾不能接受所以才有7月5號到7月6號所謂的凌晨24點前完成第二層的下架但括號調和有疾,含有20%以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
19051.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
19066.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
目前的時序是這個樣子嘛因為第一次7月1號稽查中聯友中聯友子7月2號下列7月3號一直到中午12點的期限下架第一層但是第二層是不用下架我想這樣沒有錯嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
19070.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
19086.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
為什麼這兩招 一個是第三節致癌物 一個是一個是這個第一節致癌物 為什麼為什麼為什麼你們處理上為落差這麼大 你要不要說明一下跟委員說明 蘇當紅是不得添加啦然後這一次的VAP這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
19087.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
19106.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
扁扁比本扁比是屬於安全衛生標準裡面去定他定出了一個濃度所以這兩個的管理模式在過去一向以來的這個標準處理是不一樣所以如果是不得添加而添加的不論第一層第二層通通要下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
19107.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
19123.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
那麼如果是違反衛生安全標準的那是第一層下架這個是過去在106年幾次的食安事件下來之後所訂出公告的一個處理原則所以食藥署一開始就是按照這個處理原則在處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
19125.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
19153.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
我們當然理解到民眾的這個擔憂啦所以才會後面在7月4號再開專家會議就之前所定的這個下架的標準再討論這樣有的是吃到人體的肚子嘛對不對那個蘇丹農化專品是外用的我們就要求要全部下架了而且它是國際論這個第三級摘物這個是一級摘物 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
19155.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
19182.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
然後你們說你們說這樣的一個下架的過程跟這個時序你們下架時機也一遍再變了就連目前的問題產品的名單其實還是很緩慢的還是很緩慢的而且我要提醒我們A5DA現在是用一個正常人的容許量在看待這個事情一個正常人容許量如果就要製成產品後劑量低於容許值 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
19183.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
19212.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
的一個範疇去認定那我一點不太懂啊小朋友咧還有重症病患咧肝病的病患咧尤其肝病的病患重症病患平常對這些有害的物質就要左抖右閃了但是事發到現在一直到昨天晚上FDA公布的才348項受影響的產品沒有錯嘛會不會再增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
19216.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
19231.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
昨天是232 但是我們會持續更新如果有的話昨天是232昨天是232 截至到昨天為止是232今天有沒有再增加有 會再增加對 要增加到什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
19234.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
19247.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
也就是說我們連在清查這樣的一個範圍跟確定這樣的相關的品項我們我覺得這個是這真的是奧義的頭皮真的是奧義的頭皮下架現在總TOTAL的量是四十幾四十三噸四十三噸嘛對不對都是從自有完成的從廠家下架的 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
19264.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
19292.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
還是從 已經有上架的回收這些油 對不起 回收這些油是從架上回收來的 對不對對 主要 主要 消費者買到的這些咧那個還沒統計進來 那個是退的對 要退嘛 退貨的退 它如果花票找不到 要怎麼退一罐牛腩蝦 一包蝦殼 兩包蝦殼一包王子麵 有可能五包六包 四包的 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
19294.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
19310.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
我因為朋友原本要拿王子妹去做捐血的相關的一些提供給捐血的對象來做這個反正就是一些OBI就對了啦他也不曉得王子妹已經在這一個必須要下架的三名之內但是我剛有看到提醒說你不要再放下去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
19319.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
19340.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
所以你到現在兩百幾天,你今天一定會再累積,明天會再累積,後天會再累積,然後你回收油的部分是針對廠家,上架的,那消費者的,啊他沒有發票,那你要怎麼處理?你一百萬元也可能幾個票,六個,你要拿嗎?十個,你要拿嗎?油的部分,可能一百個、兩百個,你要拿嗎?如果沒有發票,你要怎麼處理? |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
19344.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
19367.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
你現在面對到這些事情,到現在整體的一個SOP就是後避高端賣啦只有這些事情而已嗎?部長,不只這樣啦還有後續,還有相關延伸性的問題喔所以部長你要趕緊勉強起來,真的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
19370.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
19381.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
你再不精采下去真的會出問題終於由此查出是一千三公噸的大豆沙油它有一起自來物嘛齁只有這一次嗎只有這一批嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
19386.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
19414.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
這個部分跟委員說明我們已經擴大到其他的批次了現在正在檢驗中FDA規定除了食用油脂還有綜合三品零售業每半或每批其餘業別就是每劑或每批至少檢驗一次這其實當中就有很大的空窗期嘛你要看那個時序你要再往前推嘛所以今天怎麼會發生這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
19419.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
19444.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
我們在這個委員會修食安法當時那個部長對這個比較沒有涉獵啦我們在這個委員會修食安法收幾百呢七百至八百然後再到後來的食安五環就一個源頭的管理今天坦白講有人已經提出來從源頭管理我們就出了問題那我們現在再做後續的一個因應跟補救 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
19447.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
19465.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
把損害降到最低,都我沒有看到我沒有看到我再問下去問題會更大我剛剛點了那幾個,你油要怎麼拿,油要怎麼修回來你不給他對大鏡而已,你在消費者裡面要怎麼處理還是沒辦法答覆我一百塊、兩百塊沒發票,要修回來嗎?要怎麼修? |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
19476.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
19504.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
主任你可能要來講一下話吧你是食安辦的主任我們現在只是講吃的喔還有其他的回收的這一邊就是公司都同意可以退不管他的那個大包裝小包裝跟金額那我們現在在嘗試著跟通路去溝通說好比說全聯他就可以幫忙收可以去退貨那原來的好比說像胃王什麼他都可以退是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
19505.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
19513.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
那沒有花票可以嗎?應該,假如他有...主要沒有叫做應該,可以就可以,不可以就不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
19516.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
19535.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
明確說明 好不好經濟部嗎消保處消保處 對不起因為我們在處理像這些退貨的這樣的一個程序的時候包括之前的食用油的案子也都是希望我們的消費者一定要有至少發票那如果東西食品已經吃完了那就請業者能夠從寬跟從優讓消費者可以來退貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
19538.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
19553.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
對 如果沒有發票呢沒有發票其實基本上無法證明有那種真正的一個購買所以如果這些他已經有購買的但是因為花票因為業績也不大嘛但是如果有購票的一些相關證明那個我們大概也是可以請業者能夠從寬跟從優去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
19555.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
19571.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
阿今天如果這一罐牛我已經用了三分之一或是用了一半阿他確實也是在這一批的批次裡面的範圍跟使用的實現然後我只是因為沒有花票所以我就不用退我就直接叫他我就不能讓他退那就直接叫他留在家裡然後留在家裡要幹什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
19572.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
19597.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
對 其實就是重點是在說要證明自己有所謂的購買這樣的一個事實跟有使用的這樣一個曾經使用過的狀況即便沒有使用完畢那在以往消費消保處在處理這種退換貨的原則基本上就是要用這個去做扣合啦因為基本上要讓所有的一個我知道啦 現在就是沒有相關憑證沒有花票請問實際上就不能退嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
19597.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
19617.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
如果可以證明有購買事實跟購買證明的話這當然也是一個可以從寵寬跟寵優的方向我要提供購買證明的時候最直接就是花票嘛對不對還是整個那一個打出來那個收據嘛對不對這些我都沒有因為可能我去買一罐而已所以也那其實會蠻困難的啦因為對業者來講是很困難我去某家大賣場我說我還記得某月我去買的那一瓶 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
19622.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
19632.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
我要求丹麥廠把綠營帶倒出來,可以當成佐證資料嗎?丹麥廠要配合嗎?燒窗要配合嗎?量貫店要配合嗎?如果不配合怎麼辦?這個消費後續的影響,那政府要怎麼處理?因為量體很大啦,很多啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
19653.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
19675.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
實驗的關係啦,我是覺得部長真的立即有效的快速清查還有跟我講那件事情可能你們的專家會議涵蓋這些通通要來一併做出相關的積極的因應的有效的一些作為啦然後我覺得UDA還有包含這些事情整體的相關的官員你們要主動移送檢調啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
19677.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
19700.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
主動已經剪掉 徹查清楚了處理食安問題絕對不能像拍連續劇絕對不能像拍連續劇這樣還有後面還有後續的東西時間關係我再度很誠懇的提醒部長跟署長還有相關的官員包含消費者那些事情也是要積極營運謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝劉建國委員的諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
19706.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
19722.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
接下來請楊秋英委員質詢謝謝主席 楊秋英發言 首先邀請衛福部那如果有問到相關單位 因為時間的關係 請你們主動上來謝謝主席 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
19727.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
19742.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
部長你好發生了這麼重大的事情大家都說食安是不能退讓的一個底線而且它牽扯到不管是國軍不管是這個學校營養午餐等等那現在本席要請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
19744.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
19764.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
現在媒體披露的是1300噸的這個量體那可是如果依照目前的這個現象本席研議可能不只這個數字那現在到底1000 就依現在的數字1300噸的這個量體現在流向 流到哪裡去 都清楚了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
19765.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
19786.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
根文說明就是說它的流向我們都公佈在我們的網頁上它主要是供應給泰山福壽福茂這個是油品的原型那往下有一些不是用油的型態去販售它可能變成了加工用到加工去所以我們目前現在連那個泡麵的漏罩包都有現在連那個沙 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
19790.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
19805.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
都會去回收 回收主要是油的形態的這個去做回收啦回收主要是油的形態這個過程當中 本先生請問在黃金時期的時候 黃金時間我們衛福部食藥署到底做了哪些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
19806.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
19824.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
跟委員說明就是第一步我們先公布了這個流向這一層的油品通通是要下架然後要回收這個就是油的型態的通通是下架或者是回收不能再用禁止再使用通通是下架回收不能再用本席請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
19825.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
19846.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
在第一時間是誰決定要蓋牌不要公佈 竟然說了一個名稱說不能公佈喔 公佈了會引起恐慌喔民眾都問我們到底什麼可以吃什麼不可以吃所以我們一直積極的告訴政府你要公開資訊 透明化民眾有吃的權利 民眾也有選擇權啊誰決定要蓋牌啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
19850.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
19863.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
所以第一個階段呢那我們食藥署是依據106年的時候食品風險評估的執意會所訂出來的下架原則去操作你一加106年債權問那又是誰髮夾彎決定要公佈呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
19868.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
19880.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
那當然因為這個第一次我們就按照這樣去執行了那麼執行之後呢我們也聽到了一些大家的反應跟焦慮所以我們才回頭再召開 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
19881.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
19894.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
專家會議去檢視106年的這個下架原則對本事件是不是應該有調整的這個按照這個科學推估風險的推估去做調整我們一直說食安是 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
19900.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
19901.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
不能退讓的底線 當我們一直吶喊 請你要公佈我們自己有選擇的權利 我們有吃的權利不能一個政府連這個訊息都不告訴民眾這是健康風險問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
19916.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
19944.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
有我們的消息只要一掌握我們就會對外去揭露剛剛我在國防委員會我特別問了國防部長我說到底目前我們國軍的樣態是怎麼樣他說我們總共有29個品項第一個確定是有問題的馬上下架第六預估有問題的他們也下架29項全部送檢驗但是我說了送檢驗他說要一段時間我說這一段時間空窗期讓民眾怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
19946.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
19965.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
所以我首先要請問 今天的那個教育部有來嗎請問請問教育部在校園裡頭你已檢驗出 但是政府說風險低在這樣的情況之下 教育部你有沒有校園午餐預防的這個停用標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
19966.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
19988.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
家長都不放心耶我們其實就是依據衛福部他們公告的有疑慮的品項在第一時間透由我們食材登錄平台一發現這些有疑慮的我們立即把這個名單送各縣市政府現在就停用了嗎像我們台中市政府我們有問題就停用沒有那個什麼摻雜20%以下不用下降現在呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
19989.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
20010.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
是只要有參道就不能用是不是如此有疑慮的品項我們疑慮都請學校都先下架有疑慮的品項全部下架但是你剛剛說了一個啊你說是要衛福部認為有問題你們才要停啊那到底是怎麼回事你們不能兩個機關自己打架啊就是我們公布的這些品項 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
20012.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
20035.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
就是我們公佈的我們昨天公佈232項就是搭配這個公佈的232項是包括不管因為有問題就是有治療就是有治療沒有那個20萬以下的問題我們有的就是它有設用到的所有的品項都把它公佈了所以學校一定要注意 對軍方也要注意 學校也要注意連鎖店什麼都是民眾大家都是每一天這個會面對到的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
20040.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
20067.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
所以我還是要請教到目前為止如果我們只有停滯在行政管理周承督部長你所說你依照106年現在是民國幾年了你依照106年然後我們一直講要公開透明你才把橋彎所以我們如果停滯在行政管理的部分那請問那風險預防我們更要加重是不是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
20068.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
20079.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
所以我們會來檢討這整個從這個事件裡面看到的漏洞我們把它補強所以請教現在我們服務處每天打電話很多我買了這一箱油我可不可以退我發票丟掉了很多的婦女她買油不會買一瓶她大概買一打或者買半瓶或者一箱還有24瓶的我可不可以退 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
20093.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
20101.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
這個是政府告訴我是有問題是政府公布有問題的政府要負責任嘛不能把這個風險這個傷害留給民眾啊可不可以退 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
20106.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
20120.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
當然現在有發票的退都是沒有問題那麼至於說沒有發票的我們來研議看看怎麼樣因為這個長相要負責長相要負責我今天已經拿到你公佈的要下架的郵品我已經實證物證都到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
20125.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
20131.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
我怎麼可能每一筆發票我都留著如果說一定要有發票才能夠去退這對民眾是不公平的所以你政府已經公告這個有品是有問題的我已經買了政府你要負全責欸你督導不周欸你還要想蓋牌欸不可以如此這個沒有蓋牌的問題啦那現在就是說沒有發票的部分我們來找這個業者這個業者要負責任的那看看怎麼樣來退 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
20153.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
20170.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
多點時間可以告訴我們這樣子可以退我們來研究這個退的方式你看多點時間可以告訴我們我們要花一點時間好沒關係多久時間你讓消費者大家放心嘛不然你一直讓社會恐慌就不好的啊可不可以告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
20173.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
20192.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
我們來研究一下這個退的方式因為有發票的都沒有問題現在就可以退但是實務還在但是沒有這個發票的我們來看看這個後面程序上告訴社會大眾還給社會大眾一個食安的公平謝謝好謝謝楊瓊英文的質詢現在請圖全級委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
20203.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
20211.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
好 謝謝主席 那請我們石部長還有我們江署長我請石部長 江署長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
20214.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
20238.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
部長署長請問一下我們這一次生產這些問題油品的業者中聯油脂我們看了一下它是資本額3000萬以上的使用油脂的製造工廠我們也看過你們的說明針對這一類高資本額的業者我們食藥署有三道檢驗的把關程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
20238.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
20258.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
那第一道就是我們自主檢驗對 定期自主檢驗嘛第二就是我們委託外部檢驗第三方檢驗然後第三才是後市場檢驗嘛那我們看了一下南橋其實好像在4月下旬他們就知道了5月5月13號是5月13號它驗出驗出這個我們的本片比超標 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
20267.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
20294.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
那他這個是屬於第一個自主查驗那自主查驗出來之後他沒有通報對 依法要通報對 依法要通報所以他這段時間沒有通報所以也變成說他們還繼續在製作我們市面上還繼續販賣所以這部分所以這個自主管理業者的責任他沒有盡到所以我們才衛福部才對他開罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
20296.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
20316.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
那我想了解我們當然前面第一道第二道第一道是我們自主嘛第二道是委託外部那我們第三道才是我們政府的抽驗那當然是我們政府的最後的防線那我們想了解那個我們中聯郵址他在四月份有抽驗過嗎還是他最後一次抽驗是什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
20317.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
20339.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
如果是中聯他們自己在4月份有一次他的自主檢驗他有驗不過那一次驗是屬於符合那個標準所以這個也是我們會我們現在回頭把它過去從4月到6月底的所有的這個採樣檢體我們都要再重驗一遍就是因為他當時候驗是 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
20340.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
20356.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
他自己驗是核對他自己驗其實重點其實就像剛剛講5月13號他已經驗出確定有但是他並沒有去通報那我們委託外部檢驗我們是不是我看一下我們規定是他檢驗的週期最少要半年一次那都有在做嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
20358.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
20382.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
他有記錄啦有記錄啊但是呢驗的現在就是說他有驗的合格但是事實上是不是真的是合格我們現在再重新復驗所以可能要了解一下他這個委託外部檢驗到底有沒有半年內都有去做這個檢驗的週期半年有去做嗎而且我們後市場抽驗到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
20383.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
20410.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
上次最後一次抽菸是什麼時候因為我們 這些步驟到底有沒有落實因為後市場檢驗室有各地方衛生局去在市面上去抽回來驗的所以不見得 因為這個中聯的油品是交由他的下游的業者所以沒有直接的中聯的油品在市面上主要是所以沒關係 部長我們希望去了解一下尤其這個委託外部檢驗 你們自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
20411.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
20431.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
寫的我們說明這個檢驗週期最少半年一次這些到底沒有落實去做而且他當然最嚴重就是明明驗出驗出這個一級致癌物居然還沒有馬上通報還沒有停止製造沒有停止販售這對民眾的健康食安是非常嚴重的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
20432.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
20460.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
而且我們經過這個我們了解像我們商用的桶裝油一般它都是直接銷售到夜市 餐廳 機關甚至一些美食街然後我們看了一下像我們這次雙北跟台中連營養午餐的學校我們公布都有131個學校中標都有進到這個問題的油那我們現在這個商用桶裝油其實市面上 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
20461.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
20481.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
是買不到的市面上買不到那但是他直接進到夜市進到餐廳那我請問一下他市面上買不到我們衛福部怎麼去做這個後市長抽院他根本沒有在市面上啊他就直接進餐廳進學校進機關他就直接拿來使用啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
20481.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
20493.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
因為他同一批油他會做成不同的包裝啦所以他有的會到這個後市場去我們會驗到那另外在學校的部分好像也有那個也會去抽 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
20498.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
20527.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
我覺得這部分可能要注意因為他這個直接出來他沒有到市面上直接就到餐廳到夜市到一些直接加工直接製作甚至他就直接在食材裡面加進去然後我們民眾就直接吃進去了那你這後市場查驗他沒有在市面上你根本沒有辦法查驗所以這部分我們抽菸有包括在裡面後市場查驗的部分包含在學校的這個材料 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
20528.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
20549.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
我希望針對這一次你看像連中聯油指這3000萬以上的資本的這種中大型企業而且我們了解它的市佔率高達40%對這社會上影響真的非常大那我們是不是應該針對這些大宗用油的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
20550.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
20567.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
工廠是不是應該要加強來查驗他的比例啊對就是說目前我們盤點出來主要是四大上游的這個煉油油脂公司這是四大那現在除了已經停產的就是停工的之外其他三家我們也加強在監測 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
20568.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
20594.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
好這部分喔那居然已經發生了而且現在我們還是還沒有確定它的原因到底是原料還是製成對不對對現在等我們其他那個送檢的這些檢體出來之後再來進行其實現在民眾真的是很恐慌啦除了我們現在公布的他們知道以外因為現在真正原因都不知道所以現在國人對這個食安問題喔都感覺喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
20595.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
20611.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
一點安全感都沒有他們說連不出去吃連自己家裡炒菜都會有這樣子的問題連家裡的食用油都出問題你知道他們對我們的食安問題這部分我們怎麼把關怎麼讓民眾安心 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
20611.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
20626.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
所以這兩天我們會把這個20幾件從它4月到6月底的檢驗完成之後我們就會來公佈就讓民眾趕快安心好 那而且我們這第一時間當然我們那時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
20627.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
20649.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
6月30號爆發第一時間其實第一時間我們大家對於我們的主梗機關意圖蓋牌其實大家覺得是不太滿意啦那後來我們在7月4號才開這個記者會說這個中聯油脂大多沙拉油有一級致癌物然後針對泰山福壽福茂 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
20650.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
20661.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
這些全面下架那時候還推出什麼三層接漏在第二層拿去加工的那時候還說經過安全評估不用下架結果到7月6號馬上大轉彎第一次公布的257家這些業者的清單 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
20668.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
20690.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
才要求這些下架 結果到7月7號又說只要有使用到這些問題油的 要全面下架我想了解 正過這一連串 其實這段時間大家真的是對衛福部 對食藥署這些的作為荒腔走板 真的是沒有辦法接受我想了解 為什麼第一時間又蓋牌 然後後來 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
20691.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
20719.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
又政策又轉彎說不公佈又公佈然後本來20%以上的公佈後來又說只要含有的公佈這為什麼會政策一直轉彎那到底原因是什麼好 根文說明第一個時間點呢我們是依據食藥署依據106年的這個違規食品事件的下架處理原則層級去執行所以第一層的就第一個直接就介入那麼下架了 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
20720.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
20748.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
那麼後面呢是因為我們也考量到那麼這個國人對這個食安的這個憂心所以才又再開這個專家會議就之前的106年所定的這個下架的原則去做討論然後才提出那在安全風險的考量之下那麼重新把原型油跟占20%以上的那麼要求下架才會做這個修訂但是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
20749.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
20769.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
執行下去之後才開始有衛生局的反應說這個執行上卻有它的複雜度行政成本也很高所以最後我們才決定雖然這個專家會議是說20%以上下架就好但是我們最後還是決定那麼讓它全部都下架所以不只這些過程你都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
20770.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
20792.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
我想了解所以從前面的蓋牌再到記者會前面說第一層的公佈第二層的不用公佈後來再說20%以上的要下架然後後來再說全面下架所以這整個過程部長都是你經過他們討論後你下的決定嗎我都清楚這個過程每一次他們要 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
20794.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
20820.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
這個依據的這個報告啊依據這個哪一個行政的這個原則這個食藥署都是在依法行政的所以部長都有參與都了解這整個過程當然專家會議我沒有參與啦但是專家會議的結論都讓我知道所以這部分的決定其實部長都是知道的嘛我知道所以大家針對這一部分齁這個整個過程好像我們衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
20821.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
20844.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
食藥署好像都對於這些事情好像完全都不知道怎麼去處理公布以後感覺現在有問題再來改一下現在民意又覺得有意見大家網路各個方面都在反彈民眾對於這個事情都沒辦法接受感覺又再去做調整你看短短的幾天從6月30號爆發7月4號記者會這幾天的過程一變再變 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
20849.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
20855.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
會感覺好像我們主管單位都不知道怎麼處理這個事情確實這個過程當中的風險溝通我們應該要再改進這個風險溝通對民眾的風險溝通確實是有改進的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
20863.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
20881.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
因為這個對國人食安跟健康影響很大而且據我們了解這個在市面上已經流出去的油品有1300噸那今天聽部長講好像我們目前只有回收43噸對啊 那還這麼多沒有回收的部分你們有想過要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
20882.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
20908.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
那很多有多少是民眾已經吃下去的就像剛剛很多委員講那剩下的你們要打算怎麼處理要回收還是要怎麼處理這些問題好像都沒有去考量到也跟委員說明因為這個油的這個出售呢是比較早它在4月所以它有些這個油呢用到了這個調理去用炒菜啦或者是油炸啦那些油呢就已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
20909.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
20935.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
丟棄了啦所以它不可能被我們用現在再去回收我們現在所回收的油呢都是那些還沒有使用過的還沒有用的下架或者是在庫房的把它回收那有些是用掉了它炸啦幹什麼這個不太可能去回收這些油所以有些是這樣那有些是用到做加工食品去的那些也不太可能去回收油所以我們回收的是說還以油 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
20937.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
20959.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
樣態存在的這些油把它回收我希望部長署長針對這一連串你像這些的過程我們真的要怎麼去處理連這個發生之後當然我們盡快要把這個原因找出來不然現在民眾真的很恐慌到底是這個大豆這原料出問題還是製造製程有出問題那如果真的原因找出來甚至還有很多我們沒有發現的 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
20960.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
20974.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
都含有這個一級致癌物所以希望這個盡快來趕快處理那當然後續怎麼亡羊補牢當然也是我們主管單位要怎麼去做那其實這部分我也知道在這死案爆發之前部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
20975.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
20995.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
也有很多的服選行程那當然因為這食安問題而去停下來我們希望現在還是要以國人的食安跟健康來為主把這些食安問題如何去做完善還有這些下架的機制還有這些抽驗這些等等的過程都希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
20996.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
21019.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
能夠做一個完善的處理不要說今天公布了一個方法過兩天又改然後今天公布明天又改這個整個過程讓大家對主管單位真的沒有信心希望部長針對這部分還是把其他的閒雜的事情先放開以我們國人的食安健康為前提這樣好不好一定 國人的健康優先 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
21020.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
21042.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
好 那大家加油啦還是要拜託大家還是要照顧我們民眾的健康一定 一定好 謝謝好 謝謝圖宣吉委員的發言也謝謝部長的回應下一位我們請召委盧憲義委員發言謝謝主席 有請石部長好 有請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
21046.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
21069.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
部長辛苦了那我們還是在回顧一下剛才的我們所有的那個委員的那個質詢那我就針對食品安全衛生管理法第7條的要求他說如果有安全之餘應該立即停止製造加工販售及搬離回收並通報所在所在地的主管機關這個制度的目的就是在保護人民對不對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
21071.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
21093.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
對讓我們看到我們行政院在民國99年到現在大概有16年的時間成立了一個食品雲那其實好不容易建立的一個對政府的信任對食安的信任對餐桌安全的信任怎麼一下子又打回原形我覺得這個部分我覺得真的是要神之以法那我剛剛看了那個網站的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
21094.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
21114.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
他竟然有一個話是這樣說的十倍查驗 十倍的安全那這樣看起來是格外的諷刺那我一直在覺得說這個時間軸的部分是不是特別的有奇怪的地方早上林淑芬回頭還要講說這些業者其實又是上游 又是下游我們怎麼可以期待他們是自主檢驗呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
21115.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
21142.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
然後呢 既然在還沒有檢驗報告合格的報告之前既然就可以先讓貨賣出去這個部分是不是應該要特別的去關注這個先後的順序那我剛剛看了一個6月15號的一個品質的 品保的一個聯繫會議那我想知道說衛福部跟 或者是食藥師 或者說我們食安辦這邊你們的角色是什麼 你們有參與嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
21144.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
21156.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
他竟然在6月15號的那個平保聯繫會議他就已經呈現這個鈔票的樣態可是他們可以隱匿那你們當時官方都沒有任何人參與他們所謂的平保聯繫會議嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
21158.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
21179.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
跟委員說明這個是他們內部的會議所以這個我們是事後在調查的時候才得知他有在6月15號有過這樣的一個內部會議所以是不是以後如果是這樣的會議你們應該要主動參與或者說你們應該是你們主動來辦這樣的一個所謂的食品安全的一個所謂的檢驗的會議我們會來加強這個外部監督的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
21182.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
21195.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
那我想先請問部長你知道他們的一年的營業額大概是多少嗎我們目前的食品用油的營業額這個中年嗎沒有 我們食用油全國全國啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
21196.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
21215.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
大概在1200億左右那我就想問說這次的採訪的基準在哪裡因為我的看到是300萬有的是600萬有的甚至是到1億那我想再考你一題就是說這1300噸聽起來很像很少你知道大概是幾桶的沙拉有3公斤裝的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
21218.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
21239.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
大概是43萬桶那你這樣回想一下如果這邊可以放1萬桶的話要43千欸那就是說其實量是非常的大也是不容忽視那如果就成本的話來看如果說一販賣一桶是200塊的話可能這個費用大概是1億左右啦1億以內那雖然聽起來這些數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
21241.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
21259.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
看起來就是說 很像不是對他們整年的營業而是佔了很大的比例不過對國人的安全跟我們在想像我們一直說餐桌安全會覺得說被打回原形的這樣一個態度來看的話會覺得業者真的是很沒有良心 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
21260.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
21275.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
所以我希望說這個我們剛所說的時間軸跟我們所謂的你們該參與他們的檢驗或者說第三方有三方檢驗的機制你們都沒有參與到任何一方我覺得是有點誇張所以我想知道說以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
21276.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
21292.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
如果原料端製成端成品端出貨前這些的必驗的點應該是要在哪裡是不是應該要去檢討一下然後結果出來之前是否可以出貨這樣的一個決定是誰可以決定那若檢驗一場 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
21293.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
21307.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
異常然後停產封存然後擴大流量減益或者是復工的標準在哪裡就是說他被裁定是已經有製造出四倍的這個致癌物結果他以後要復工復工的條件是什麼有想過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
21308.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
21324.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
我們有在重新的檢討過去要求的這個檢驗的頻率要給它提高還有就是包含我們現在已經先先要求的就是竹皮檢驗檢驗合格再出貨所以現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
21326.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
21353.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
從這個逐批本來沒有逐批的這個要求那現在暫時呢先以逐批來確保現在市場上出油的都是符合標準的那另外呢未來我們也會去強化這個外部的監測包含這個第三方檢驗的部分如何去採檢那麼檢驗的結果呢如何是直接跟主管機關的資訊是互通而不會又回到這個業者而造成有這個隱匿不報的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
21354.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
21378.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
這個都會在未來去檢討市安辦的報告指出四個縣市共165個教育單位曾經使用或者是有購買這樣一個受影響的產品我想知道教育部在新學期前能不能完成校園的一個實案的緊急通報或者是學校去回覆確認或者是去演練至少去看看曾經使用或者是已經停用 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
21378.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
21384.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
或者是庫存或是這些有沒有用來共餐有沒有讓家長知道這樣一個資訊讓國人知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
21388.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
21414.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
跟委員報告因為我們所有學校使用在午餐的食材包括調味料都必須要上傳到食材登錄平台那因此如果食藥署這邊已經公佈的有疑慮的有品或是其他的品項我們在食材登錄平台那邊已經都篩選出來交由各縣市政府進行更深入的就是查查並且就是下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
21415.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
21433.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
那如果說這些已經查出來是有疑慮的那個產品的話其實在我們食材登錄平台都已經會有預警了因為一直覺得小孩子現在都是都是保安的少子化所以對兒少的優先保護的一個處置我覺得教育部應該多多跟教育衛福部這邊來溝通跟來研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
21436.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
21458.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
然後最後一個問題我問一下那個食安辦這邊是不是這個政大食安事件的資訊公開下架回收 退換或跟申訴的整合那個機制有沒有在規劃我們很積極在討論中跟我們食安辦消保處然後法務部相關的部會都在討論中 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
21460.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
21480.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
有一個訊息就是說其實全聯或者是一些比較有規模的一些我們所謂的銷售業者他們其實對販售都有這樣的一個紀錄所以其實他們可以去主動的去告知有買這些這段期間有買這些有的消費者主動去回原購買地去 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
21482.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
21509.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
假如他用信用卡 悠遊卡或是像雲端的他都可以查得出來了我覺得是這樣 所以你們就可以事半關倍好那還有一些比如說我們像離島 園鄉這些可進的協助管道有沒有可以去建置不然如果這些東西如果賣到離島去偏鄉結果他們也沒有收到這方面的資訊結果一直在使用 結果他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
21509.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
21534.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
好那我們請我們的那個金馬的那個服務處花東的南部的都會幫忙宣導好那最後一個問題我再問一下部長比較輕鬆的話題了部長曾經有看過一個新聞就是說吃鹹素雞他說要六年才會分解掉欸你有聽過這麼可怕的那個嘛消息嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
21536.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
21549.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
後來我剛剛在主席台 我就再翻了一下他說這是一個知識錯誤可是引用錯誤不過他所謂的引用錯誤是因為他用那個可能是一些半衰期是600多天這樣去算的一個 |