| IVOD_ID |
17568 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17568 |
| 日期 |
2026-07-02 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-36-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
22 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-07-02T08:33:43+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-07-02T11:23:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:49:17 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc54a3d42338be12646149170e17472c737149c28021a32520e9a01625029f4fd95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-07-02T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草案」案。
二、繼續審查司法院函請審議「行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。
【7月1日及2日兩天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:33:43 - 11:23:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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大家早安 我們繼續開會介紹到場的委員今天都看你一個人表演最專業的陳昭之委員還有我們列席的官員有司法院高金之秘書長還有我們行政訴訟及懲戒廳廳長陳義成廳長其他有這麼多人在這裡沒有了 有這麼多廳長來 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1806.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1818.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
沒唸一下,等一下說我們大小眼司法行政廳廳長吳祚成吳廳長還有其他,齋健波副署長也來了,李志忠副署長還有檢任秘書吳祥豪,其他我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1825.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1851.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我們就沒有一個一個主意介紹其餘未介紹的列席代表就請參閱名單我們不再主意介紹並列入公報紀錄那我們今天的議程是排定討論事項兩案分別為繼續審查司法院函請審議稅務行政事件審理法的草案以及行政法院組織法部分條文的修正案 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1856.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1876.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
這個兩案我們先前已經經過本屆第二會期本會第十次、十六次、二十三次、二十四次、二十六次全體委員會的會議審查在報告跟詢答大體討論完畢以後我們進行諸條審查並於分別通過其中部分條文的決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1878.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1886.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
另定期繼續審查所以我們今天就來繼續的審查那接下來我們來進行討論事項如果有修正動議或附帶決議的提出請盡速將書面送交主席台我們就可以來印給現場進行討論現在我們逐案來進行討論先進行第一案繼續審查司法院函請審議稅務行政事件審理法的草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1906.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1911.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那這個草案一共有33條在第二會期經本會諸條審查陸續決議通過法律名稱及21條條文包含通過保留送協商的一條並通過附帶決議一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1923.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1934.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那依規定審查會議對已通過的條文我們就不再討論那至於未完成審查的條文共有12條啦那分別是第4條第5條第7條第10條12到16條 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1941.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1962.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
25條27跟31條那今天的會議繼續進行諸條的審查有關目前審查會通過條文以及尚未通過的提案的條文經委員會整理以後製成條文的對照表那大家手上有看到的這個對照表在這裡那所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1964.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1974.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
這些對到表就接下來主條的時候提供委員來做參考那我們現在開始繼續就三位通過的條文來進行主條討論來我們現在在四條在四條這個條文對照這裡大家看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1994.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2013.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
現在只有我們兩個而已我們兩個說說就一定漏氣了 你是專家 但是我代表完全不懂法的人民所以要過我這一關你不可以說你不懂 你是很專業 我跟他說你很專業而已你跟我說你不懂小金剛你今天要很公 不好意思 請你坐坐我一定 這一條 我跟他說這條 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2018.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2027.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
這條說到當事人能立這個這個必考題啦這是對我們來說這條是很重要的事那司法院的提案部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2028.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2054.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
第四條大家看有什麼陳委員你們有什麼意見嗎基本上要講清楚因為我想當時是黃國昌主席他是這邊的委員我要講說我們還是那個原則還是這樣你有行政訴訟法你有納稅者權益保障法那在這個情況下到底有哪些不吉的地方你今天要脫鉤出來拉出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2056.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2077.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
另外把這個稅務的部分另外等於有個專法或脫鉤來處理那你要先說明說到底有哪些過去現在有的法是不及的地方這個就是說那個核心如果這個東西可以先釐清那當然整個程序的那個正義很重要那這個東西要先釐清那我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2078.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2102.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
要討論下去比較有機會啦啊不然就是而且在公聽會召開的時候齁那個是一面倒的傾斜喔那個時候好像那個比率很就是說欸出席的人好官方代表跟這個是完全比率很不我記我了解是非常不成比率喔所以我想這個過程就是說這法的必要性還是不好意思因為現在我一個人嘛反正不浪費時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2103.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2108.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我們現在先溝通一下其實我們在說當事人兩立一般來說誰可以做原告誰可以做被告那就是要處理事情譬如說我們以前在說的法律都進步了 當事人兩立你越開越闊有時候以前在路邊 你在中小東路或是濟南路走過一個磁磚撞下去以後 以前你不知道要去哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2132.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2141.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
某一戶 你不知道 你走過去 你有磁磚撞到你國務賽 你不知道 你不知道要做什麼你都可以代理住戶 什麼人 什麼人 什麼人 都太多了後來才講說 啊好 你這個管理委員會 你就有當事人能力我就過了 你就有被告的主體就是說 像可以去做 可以去提出這個訴訟像可以去更改 像你可以去更改所以啊 我們對於這一個本條啊 行政訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2159.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2165.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這部分就說你是不是有稅籍你就算稅捐的主體你進入訴訟當然就會有當事人能力你譬如說你 大家說的那個加熱服有很多 你說只有加熱服你如果說你分店你有獨立的稅籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2178.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2197.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
按照租稅法的規定,他在營業稅上有當事人的能力但是你如果說在營所稅的部分,他有沒有啊?他就要在總公司才會有了所以這個部分,是不是我們但是這條頂多是暫保留嘛所以說這條跟行政訴訟法22條的界限是在哪裡?不然我們來聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2206.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2232.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
司法演講也好嗎不好意思不敢說上課主席也是很有法律專業我簡單跟委員報告一下為什麼專法跟專章沒錯很多人會有這種疑義那我們知道行政訴訟法它是一個基本法跟民事訴訟法一樣可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2233.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2260.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
行政訴訟法的案件類型的多樣化我們在行政訴訟法上看到有兩個專章是那個一個是都市計畫一個是那個收容還有一個是對就是我們講都市計畫跟收容這個可是其實我們還有很多環境保護各項稅務也是一個重要的行政訴訟內涵 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2262.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2278.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
行政訴訟事件我們當然可以放到專章可是會把行政訴訟法過於龐大專章會一直進來如果我們用這個觀念當然可以只是說我們要不要讓行政訴訟法繼續龐大還是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2282.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2299.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那個稅務審理有他的特殊性他的特殊性並他當然是要適用行政訴訟法的基本原則可是他會有特別的原則那就就這個特別的部分我們希望能夠用專法來 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2301.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2312.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
成立專法其實對民眾也比較好解讀這個是當初立法政策會思考到的這個好簡單先回覆一下委員的這個秘書長在沒有這個法之前你們遇到什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2318.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2326.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
然後現在想要解決什麼問題其實法律就是法官他可以解釋適用法律當然有期的時候是大法官來負責解釋完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2333.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2357.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
在這個裡面因為它是個基本法很多的適用就是要用最高法院的判決來釐清了這麼多判決的釐清對民眾在看法律的時候不見得能夠了解我們就希望說能夠把在稅務事件裡面必須經過最高行政法院來判決釐清的點 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2359.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2368.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
把它明文化然後最重要是行政訴訟法並沒有原來的撤銷行政處分可以到最源頭的那個訴願決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2372.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2399.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那個處分那個是非常重要我們都講說為什麼說我們要解決萬年稅單萬年稅單一件事時可以發生很多條個稅單那如果一現有的行政訴訟法他是要逐個逐個逐個逐個一個訴訟一個訴訟一個訴訟一個訴訟去解決那這個就是稅務事件最特別的地方那這一次希望再有一個特別的規定就直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2400.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2429.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
解決到最原始事實發生時為什麼要課稅的原始理由這個是最重要的而不是因為現有的那個稅捐各種各種各種徵稅的法規他是一件一件一件一直在徵那你要不要一件一件測當然可以可是曠日廢時不是說法院案件量多重點是民眾呢我拿到十張稅單我要打十個訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2431.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2457.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我們期待在這個裡面能夠一次就解決掉那這個就是我們民事訴訟法當然委員會說民事訴訟法有分爭一次解決嗎可是民事訴訟法沒有這種撤銷原裁定這種觀念那行政訴訟法也是要逐漸所以這個是最重要的這一次要有專法的出現那要不要講當事人能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2459.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2476.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
當事人順便講 當事人的能力沒錯 民事訴訟法規定 行政訴訟法也有規定有權力能力能夠負擔義務就是有當事人的能力 什麼什麼都可以那這次為什麼要用租稅法呢 因為我們稅法的納稅義務人有各種的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2477.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2488.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那希望在納稅義務人確定的時候因為稅法就是納稅義務人嘛他要去什麼基增法什麼什麼都要去登記啊什麼什麼什麼他會有個稅籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2492.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2517.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
就是有一個碎木碎棘就會出現,這個人就會出現很明確的可以知道,就是你就是你不要再到法院來吵聽得懂啦,我聽得懂啦現在問題就是說,其實你現在,秘書長你說的這個叫做大一的程度啦對啦,大一的程度,塑送法叫做大二啦我現在就是說,程召之委員,你們的疑慮是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2519.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2538.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
就是說我們來聚焦啦我先這樣稍微報告一下 稍微我們兩個就可以討論起來了嘛就今天這個因為人家還沒搞 所以我們先這樣啦我們先對家 先溝通沒有 現在就是要收集 我要收集說反對的是什麼 再來澄清因為這一點我在看 我們一般在說的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2542.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2571.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
你說有沒有當事人能力就很簡單,當事人能力人就一定有當事人能力啊公司的法人就一定有當事人能力,就是說我們要處理什麼啦要處理他適不適格啦稍微這樣說就是說當然我先了解他們的面對問題跟解決問題但是這個做法是不是第一個能夠解決問題解決問題的是不是公正的去解決問題因為法律在我一個不念法的人來說法律是要保障人民的並不是讓保障行政機關好做事 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2572.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2597.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
就基本上的精神 包括憲法的精神 每一條法律的精神是我意思是說 你的疑慮這條 你覺得不好是對自己不好本來有兩個法在那裡 到底遇到什麼事情本來就有一個刑訴法然後另外又有一個權益保障法你現在要加一個 裡面還有一個核心叫做稅務審查官 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2599.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2622.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這個人出來之後到底是有害人民還是有益人民我現在都打好多問號那法官要做審查當然我也不敢說法官都要懂我也知道這個像醫學一樣你們也不要以為醫生什麼都能救什麼病都能救但是法官多一個審這個角色這個定位然後誰最懂稅務呢還是因為稅務機關出來的人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2623.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2639.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那他在旁邊這個在法官旁邊這個他的角色很靠近法官啊他就影響法官的那個心證啊他就會導引他的心證啊到最後呢有這個法院那我們就擔心了那個法官就會不會他還是繼續向那個稅務機關傾斜啊行政機關傾斜人民還是鬥不了關啊你這個覺得那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2645.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2666.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
稅審官你剛才主張餘率我也有這樣的一個餘率啦我現在意思是說我們現在主條我們現在主條就是說像這個第四條裡面來看的話你的餘率會是些什麼我們就用不用進入他們的專業啊我們談站在國民的立場立法院嘛看我們要來解決什麼嘛你說要讓他去做原告還是要讓他去做被告 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2672.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2678.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
你說當事人能力,人就一定有,法人公司就一定有,我們說的非法人團體也一定有,要去計算財產的貸額也一定有,他現在就是因為你這個稅務的訴訟,他現在就跟你說你如果在 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2690.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2697.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
租稅法典款之後 你享有權力 負擔義務的你地方政府一定有嘛 地方政府機關也一定有 同時當事人能力嘛還有其他的部分 你說他這裡把寒碩給賣掉你因為他地市條 他是寫了一部分 你因為他不好或是你覺得整條都不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2710.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2721.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
行政訴訟法裡面引用二十二條自然人法人中央地方機關非法人團體有當事人能力就好你的意思是要這樣的意思嗎其實如果我在看 秘書長我在看沒有這條 如果沒有這條我也認為沒什麼好緊的是差一個 他說到有一些比較小的料你要把它 要怎麼說像我剛才說的分公司分公司的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2740.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2758.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
你有帥氣嘛 把你當成你是一個人啦你就有當事人能力啦 我的認知是在這個地方啦應該是這樣子嘛所以這個 但是我告訴你什麼叫做當事人能力你只要在裡面 你就揮到不知道怎麼揮 你就蓋帥不穿啊 有沒有看見你有沒有看見招摸摸也沒有幾個工人來 你有沒有看見 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2767.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2792.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
專業來的另一個戰場但是你也不能欺負我們因為決定權在立法院所以立法院這個地方有餘力確實我們也應該要要可以來做一個所以教委很不好意思雖然好像我們在進入第四條那畢竟是畢竟換了兩個會期了所以就是說我對一些好像看似更上位的問題當然我剛剛提到那個稅務審查官那我也覺得那個所謂的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2795.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2804.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
協力義務 就納稅義務人的協力義務聽一下還有沒有來證明說我自己不對啊就是說你要 這個思考我也通不過我這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2806.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2812.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
學醫療我沒有辦法就是說接受有一些重點所以你會覺得這個是比較高的一個相關的陳委員你不用說專業名詞我們來討論說第四條你因為你的疑慮要幫人民把關哪一個部分你認為不合理第四條我個人的淺見我反而會認為它擴大到原來 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2833.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2844.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
發落在整庭,就是說你這個人可以做完顧、做被告而已現在他反而現在變成說你有稅籍的地方,你要遇到稅務訴訟的時候,把你當作一個人啦你是權力義務主體啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2850.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2853.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
你的疑慮到底是在哪裡?你的疑慮如果有清晰的,我也可以向你道幾次,我就不一定要站在他們的立場但是我們現在是逐條在審查,我們應該看他提出來司法院的版本,他這條 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2867.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2889.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
你說加其他法律的規定差別在哪裡?是否真的有必要?因為我們現在主條在審查,現在不是在講感覺講感覺也可以啊,有疑慮提出來也可以啊,你認為不需要或者說哪一個這樣的一個規定是不對的最高為當事人就目前行政訴訟法當事人能力的這個射程範圍這次是有增加嗎?他確實是有擴張 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2892.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2894.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這只是有擴張擴張你認為這樣是不好嗎 還是是好 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2898.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2926.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
因為這個在整個超過百當中有的有直接超刑訴法的東西有些沒有那他一定有一些原來的設想跟想法為什麼有些是跟這個就有重複寫也有沒有重複寫所以那到底是這個我很擔心有隱藏的一個做法讓因為由行政版你提出來的東西都是方便他們做事這很自然的為什麼在醫院也是這樣我們醫院要被評鑑每個醫療要被評鑑說我們不能按照醫療人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2928.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2956.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
方便做事的角度 要從病人的角度那今天我們要從納稅人 人民的角度出發他就是 我們也要被檢查我們在醫療也要被檢視啊所以他就從那個病人的角度一直追蹤回去啊他一進來以後他發生什麼事情 遇到什麼事所以我也是用同樣的思考嘛因為法律應該基本上就是就是保障人民 所以這個裡面這個法我們有一些基本的疑慮啦 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2958.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2983.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
這一點我的餘慮順便 秘書長司法院這個地方回應一下你說我都沒有餘慮嗎我有一點點餘慮可是我的餘慮不一樣我的餘慮就是說我站在一個老百姓的立場我會混淆為什麼你在你有稅籍的地方我剛舉的例子分公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2984.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3006.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
分公司 你只要有稅籍的話 你說他是有當事人能力我可以當被告 我可以當原告可是呢 在營業 我在營業稅上我有當事人能力可是在營所稅上 你又必須要去總公司他才有當事人能力 沒錯沒錯你講沒錯沒錯 可是我會回答 我看你老百姓的立場就是說你為什麼要這樣做規劃藝術 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3009.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3032.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
跟委員報告就是委員所說的營業稅、營所稅還有各項稅同樣一個公司它被納稅義務人的譬如說我們剛才講Costco的據點它是營業稅它據點可是它也可能會有非法人團體可能會有分公司它會符合民事訴訟法行政訴訟法可是就如同委員所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3033.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3055.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
非法人公司這種公司的概念 是我們學法律的人有可是對民眾來講呢 我是一個納稅義務人我不管你 你管我是什麼公司 分公司 什麼非法人團我是一個被課稅的納稅義務人我有主張我免稅 或者我應該要退回稅款的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3059.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3080.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那當然義務是沒錯我要負擔納稅的義務可是我有權利啊那如果當然沒有錯如同主席所說的這個跟人 人確實是一定會有權利能力可是為什麼我們沒有直接說去適用這個特別來寫清楚就讓民眾知道說 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3081.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3099.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
你就在租稅上 你被課稅了嘛 你的名字在上面嘛 你的據點在上面嘛 你的門市在上面嘛 你就可以來訴訟了其實跟委員報告 這個是對民眾有利 因為對法官來判斷當事人能力太容易了 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3100.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3118.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
可是他民眾要去看民事訴訟法跟行政訴訟法他要去理解什麼公司啊什麼非法人我是不是啊我是什麼我是獨自啊那我到底是什麼東西呢我是自然人尤其獨自跟自然人我們專業太容易了可對民眾來講那你在幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3122.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3147.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
可是我們現在就很簡單 你只要被課稅你稅籍上有你的單位名稱你的什麼你就可以來主張我的稅是被課錯了我希望撤銷掉 其實就這麼簡單所以他只是把一個看起來很法律規定的條文把它一個簡單化 我要說是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3149.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3167.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
主席講得很對 人就脫離不了人 確定可是什麼人呢 在訴訟法上會有很多種慣例我們這邊就把它簡單化 其實就是這樣的目的我聽到有啦 問你一個說服力一個造勢委員 我們來看就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3169.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3195.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
理論上這個畢竟像尤其像這種法案提出來行政部門尤其司法院提出來不用懷疑嘛這些學者專家去討論過專業的部分就不用懷疑啦然後那個面向的部分可能他們也會在研討會裡面啦或者學者專家裡面其實司法院不應該閉門造局啦他們也沒有那個能力啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3195.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3199.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
當然要去那個會議會議的我意思是說選出來之後我們當然立法案就是在挑毛病的地方挑出問題的地方這是我們的職責嘛但問題是要聚焦聚焦說這一個條文裡面不然你覺得你們台灣民眾黨認為要怎麼樣比較好你是要認為哪一部分他不應該有當事人的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3220.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3234.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
或者說他這樣子沒辦法解決什麼或者這樣的規定會如何這個我知道對你來說會比較麻煩啦醫療啊 你就專家 我們哪有辦法你如果叫我跟你講醫療 我也講處理啊這個我是剛才問兩次啦啊今天自己在這裡討論我認為這個其實喔應該這樣講 第四條按照司法人員提出來這樣的一個草案通過的話 你會有什麼疑慮啊不然我是很想要跟他們打拖啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3252.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3262.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我們兩個而已,不然我們就...因為這個壓力有點大啦,您是專家啦我們不要有壓力,我這條我跟妳說,我再審任何法案,民進黨不會給我交付任何任務,不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3271.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3296.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
交付的純法律案我也會憑著我自己懂的有專業的我就盡量照我自己的方式來講那是一個法理嘛啊不通的一個黨如果敢提出不通的那你會受到社會的譴責啊我們在這裡攻防的時候你說民進黨提出的主張或者民眾黨提出的主張你這是各有所本才會在那個地方聚焦啊今天你只要在後面說的那社會記者會後面把我們燒下去你知道嗎我們也不敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3301.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3321.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
所以我的意思就是說 社會要理解可能會lag那個時間比較多久後他們才發現哇這個法是沒有修善反而只能修我也不敢說修惡啦所以基本上等社會民眾理解的時候那是很後期的事情啦我們現在就責任就在這邊就把...等一下等一下等一下 我這條我們心無一戒你知道嗎我們立法院要給人家做決定啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3327.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3338.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我們立法院不能因為其他人沒有來我們就很簡單其他人沒有來不是我們叫他們不用來我們也沒有突襲我的意思是沒有問題啦我的意思是說我們要反對什麼要說清楚啦我覺得很好的條文進步的一個法案只是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3349.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3366.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我們現在又不是進入委員會我們現在又開始正常開會期間大家當然立法委員也許現在很多人在別的委員會或者在什麼地方都有可能我的意思就是說我們這個看要做什麼樣的就不然我們這條線要做多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3377.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3382.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我沒有碰過只有我一個人在 照是我的意思說我沒有在決定什麼啦我是問你的意見啦 到底有人要過關沒有過關的問題啊 我是要說你的疑慮是什麼 盡量講 講完後讓他們來給我們回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3399.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3412.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我們也不能讓他們這部分他們比較專業的話好像在欺負立法院也不行啊他們哪敢欺負立法院是差這個我們有沒有餘力來提出讓他們所以我不知道現在我們兩個會審這個我也不會這樣審啦你放心啦就是說讓你的大體上你的餘力說出來讓司法院就讓他們給我們回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3421.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3426.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
我的重點在這個地方啦,不用煩惱啦,待會就一堆人來,國民黨娘就來啦當時討論稅法的時候,這是一個各種角度啦,這個其實沒有政治顏色啦當時討論也是有很多的問題一直丟出來,很核心的問題啊那這破法律喔,這破法律我看起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3443.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3465.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
沒有任何黨派啦這套有什麼任何黨派因為在說當事人能力這套有什麼任何黨派在開什麼玩笑剛好那個就說什麼民進黨可以成為原告跟被告哪一個政黨就不行沒有這種事啊是說你哪一些人事格你要不要把他去為了擴大紛爭的一個解決要把他聲音這樣而已不然我們就這樣 現在幾分 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3468.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3473.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
現在九點半先休息一下 那大家先溝通一下 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
4425.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
4441.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
不然這樣,我們繼續,我們如果沒辦法一直等,其他的委員也沒有那麼多人來,我們今天也沒辦法去做決定那是不是,我來請教一下那個財政部,財政部今天來嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
4443.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
4458.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
你像你們這個第四條,剛才在高祕書長這樣講,財政部對於第四條當事人能力的界定的部分,你們的看法對這個條文,你們的看法怎麼樣?完全尊重你都尊重?是 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
4462.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
4489.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
你認為這個我們不要說尊重啦我們您的看法因為這個是直播嘛難得你有這個機會把這個專業秀給大家聽聽看不敢不敢像主席剛剛槌尋的就營鎖所以因為我們是看法人人格所以當事人的能力大概就是我們舉一個就是剛剛抓偉你講到的就是假設有一個連鎖店他有一個總公司然後一百個 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
4491.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
4515.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
這個門市部對門市部那這個門市部他沒有法人格啦那在所得稅部分我們大概就對總公司跟他全部的門市部的所得來課稅所以當事人當然就針對總公司但是就營業稅來講我們有稅級管理的需求就像自然人要辦戶籍登記一樣所以這些門市部都要跟總公司一樣去跟他的所在地國稅局去辦營業稅的稅級登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
4518.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
4527.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那他的法人格就集於門市部所以這個大概每個罪的特性不一樣那我想我們這部法律大概也是要處理這個問題所以這個我們支持行政訴訟法第22條的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
4548.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4568.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
你認為就是因為有所不足嘛如果沒有這一條規定現行法如果沒有這一條的話那以現在來看的話民事訴訟法的部分跟行政訴訟法的規定是不是有缺漏的地方不足以來解決你現在所提的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4570.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4592.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
因為這個是專法然後依照我們第一條它其實就是基於納稅者的權利保護所以在密度上就稅務審理的這個事件的密度上它應該是要比行政訴訟法在稅務的程序上要做更高密度的規範那這樣可能在整部法律的完整性會比較完備啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4594.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4607.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那你要處理什麼我們現在就是說我意思是說沒有這個感到陌生遇到現狀就沒辦法處理那應該就是回到行政訴訟法去follow了 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4607.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4623.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
那我只是說這個是專法沒有這一條沒有稅審法是我們就回到行政訴訟法是那回歸到行政訴訟法那是不是有所不足還是說用行政訴訟法就可以解決以目前當事人事格的規範就是說不用現在這破新法只有現在行政訴訟法就夠了我看最重點在這個地方在四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4636.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4662.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
了解 如果就財政部立場應該是OK的沒問題的但是因為這個專法的設計有它完整性跟整體性的考量這個部分我建議是不是還是由我們那個院裡面來做一個說明就財政部的立場來講是OK的啦但是如果就專法的立場的設計是不是讓它更完備我想我們院裡面這樣說話比較粗暢 來 廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4664.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4667.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
秘書長來跟別人說一下你很專業我知道跟別人說一下來來 審法委員我們來也是一對一嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4676.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4694.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
所以你來,來一個,招一個,來一個招一個,什麼會議,那這是也非常專業的啦,所以我主席現在這個地方是說,我們來看看,因為你就叫我只有單一個黨,來對於整個法律案來做決定,我覺得這樣也不太好,所以我先來聽聽看,試著把這些疑慮來做澄清啦,就是說,你現在, |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4700.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4706.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
其實我們現在稅務訴訟稅務行政事件在審理其實也沒有這一部法令其實還是可以走得很好那我們這一部法令稅務事件審理法我們在第四條裡面我們這部新的法令這樣把當事人能力我們就變成是擴大了嘛 加起來嘛加起來之後 有人會覺得你怎麼加這個要做什麼你要處理什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4727.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4751.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
沒有這樣的一個第四條的一個規定是不是原有的法律規範有所不足來 廳長聽聽看你的看法我想訴訟法上當事的能力就是它可以向法院起訴或應訴嘛那我們傳統訴訟法上都會去判斷說你今天你到底是不是自然人法人或者是非法人團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4752.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4778.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那我們為什麼在這裡做這樣一個規定呢就是基於稅務的特性因為很多的稅他並不看重你到底是不是法人或你是不是非法人團體他是只要你有設一個營業據點你有營業的事實這個時候你就要繳稅或者是你就要去做稅籍登記因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4779.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4799.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
如果產生了相關的爭議的話我們會覺得就讓當事人這個人直接來起訴啊我就不要在法律上再去判斷你你到底有沒有你是不是非法人團體那如果你不是非法人團體那我們訴訟就是駁回啊那這是對當事人不利的啊那今天我把 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4802.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4829.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
這個規定寫成就是說只要你在稅法上你享有權利或負擔義務你因此發生了稅務的爭議那沒關係不管你是誰我不管你到底有沒有法人資格或非法人團體可以認定為非法人團體我都容許你到法院來就計你的權利所以其實是基於這樣一個考量我們是覺得這是對人民真的是一個有利的規定擴大啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4830.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4853.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
對啦,就是有當事人能力,本來他沒有資格走進法院他現在就有資格走進法院,他適不適格當然是另外判斷你是不是這個案子裡面的主體,那是另外一個判斷的問題所以我就,我不知道這條大家在揮的部分,第四條在我看來其實我是覺得很合理啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4854.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4865.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我認為這很合理啦,但是很合理的,我們兩個在這裡,我們兩個阿嬤一起去講這個,所以這個比較麻煩這第四條的部分,還有什麼第四條,你們認為問餘力,你們站出來跟你們講餘力也沒意思,不知道日本人怎麼講餘力,不知道對嗎所以這個比較麻煩,省外委員有沒有什麼要指教,第四條我覺得就好好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4881.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4907.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
我認為這個第四條現在這樣子,這個條文就是能夠一方面簡化一方面它就是能夠確認你在租稅法上面有享有權利義務,有當事人能力我不曉得說這個意見,有不同意見在哪裡但是我們現在程序上是不是人數不足其他我們現在是不是人數沒有辦法做決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4909.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4925.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
是啦,現在就沒辦法去做決定,所以這個也沒關係啦,現在先這樣聽一下是好啦本來我是要把一些,一些爭點來做一個整理啦,現在問題你說在野黨的委員他也不在,現在人數也不夠,這樣第四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4931.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4936.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
今天讓我們司法院還有各個機關來那因為各委員會裡面那其實我相信其他的委員他也不是沒有來他有事情有人是記者會啊有人在其他委員會裡面啊那可能有的人就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4954.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4967.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
認為說這麼專業的東西就尊重司法院可是尊重到最後人數會不夠就不好意思了這對你們就比較抱歉了咖啡有給你們傳,你們有喝就咖啡啦如果沒有你們還要喝不夠,我會讓你們喝一杯而已你們還要再喝一個,再買一個我們現在九點多而已九點多要第二支休息,實在是 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4981.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4994.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
因為剛有說翁委員也在來的路途翁委員也算專業嘛那我們就來尊重一下各黨都有專業的人啦只是說因為碰到有時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4996.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
5019.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
這個委員會各個委員會同時在進行那當天你像可能有的委員在其他的委員會有登記質詢或者碰到法案的審查他自己有所提案所以就沒有辦法全程坐在這個地方否則其實立委其實大家都司法法治委員會的委員大家都都是非常用心的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
5036.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
5039.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
慢慢來 喲喘一下 你看 歐美人來了喲喘呸呸 慢慢來不會那代表盡心盡力 好不好那朝偉坐在這個地方也都 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
5051.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
5074.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
也都期待大家一起來加入討論來 跟委員會報告我們今天就針對於稅務行政事件的一個審理法的草案進行逐條啦我們現在是進入到第四條啦第四條 來 范雲委員也來這都專業級 教授級的來 這樣就可以聚焦啦現在第四條 就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
5076.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
5088.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
司法人提出的一個草案裡面,得依租稅法上享有權利跟負擔義務者,他就有當事人能力啦中央跟地方機關,這不用說了,這一定有當事人能力的現在是說,你在行政訴訟法裡面第22條,有這樣一個規定,是不是一定要 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
5097.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
5112.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
在稅審法裡面要死掉把當事人的能力去做一個界定當然這個界定裡面就是說你這個稅捐的一個主體然後到法院裡面你是不是可以有這個能力去當 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
5113.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
5118.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
這個原告或者被告在這個在訴訟當中他具備有這樣的一個能力那今天這條文裡面我不曉得我們在場其他的委員會不會針對第四條有什麼樣不同的看法支持或反對都很好就把意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
5130.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
5151.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
大家來提出讓整個法案可以更完備在立法院在委員會審理期間收納更多的不同的一個意見如果沒有不同的一個意見的話我們就可以來做決定那第四因為這一部法律其實就沒有涉及到黨派沒有涉及到意識形態的一個問題就是說要把 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
5155.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
5166.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
什麼 要把這樣的一個稅務 法官在審理稅務整個稅務的一個行政事件在做處理的時候什麼人可以說 你可以去做換格 來做比格在場所有的委員 聽您的意見來 請翁小玲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
5179.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
5206.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
我想因為在訴訟法上的當事人能力基本上大家過去不管在法學禮上面或是實務上面其實都有一定的認知那麼現在看起來就是在這次的修法裡面會擴大當事人能力那麼因為這個案子可能比較多的不同的意見那本席是認為說是不是第四條就保留送協商好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
5207.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
5218.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
郭文貴議員我們講真話這條第四條反而我們可以把它推進第四條來講的話對人民是好事你說你什麼人可以來當董事員他現在加一個類似分公司這樣進來就是總公司跟分公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
5228.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
5242.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
啊你第四條你像譬如說你去看那個行政訴訟法第22條以及治安人法人中央跟地方機關非法跟非法人團體這個都是我們從小到大基本的一個認知你如果去做比較的話反而呢它這個第四條裡面啊它 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
5247.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
5250.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
跟行政訴訟法 中央跟地方機關都一樣 都在他差別在什麼地方就是說你在租稅上 你只要享有權利及負擔義務者就可以進來到整個訴訟體系現在是在說我們真的有意見的 反而是像什麼稅審官那些站在立法院的比較大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
5270.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
5295.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
會有 站在擔心老百姓的權益受到損害說你行政部門 你的司法部門你都去行政部門做一些苦力來總不然要把老百姓瞌睡拔鵝毛的如果是這一些的話 反而我們是站在比較踩煞車的立場啦因為立法院嘛 本來就要把關嘛對於像這一種比較沒有涉及到 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
5296.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
5324.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
沒有涉及到 侵害到人民的權利的反而基於整個訴訟上 要讓人去買這個 我覺得這個 我們可以給它支持啦 我不知道 翁委員我想要不然再請那個司法院再說明一下因為這個是跟新的行政訴訟法的規定是有不同那麼到底這樣規範之後 那可能會對什麼樣的人或團體會產生影響依照你們的說明是 這個未來是所謂的外國盈利事業 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
5325.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
5351.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
他就有當事人能力嗎還是只要在這邊有繳稅的話來請說明謝謝委員其實這個規定沒錯民事訴訟法行政署法都有規定在這邊的規定其實是對人民有利對人民是方便的因為訴訟一開始委員也了解一定增值當事人能力可是我們都知道在稅務事件裡面會進來訴訟的一定是納稅義務人 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
5354.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
5376.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
他在稅級上一定會變登記了我們就說你只要在這個租稅法上你必須要負擔義務那當然因為相對於負擔義務你就會享有權利你就可以進到法院那馬上就會認定你是有當事人能力即使是這個對照的政府機關他也不能整治了他就進來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
5377.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
5400.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
如果我們走行政訴訟法 當然可以 案件現在在進行第一個 只要對照抗辯說你沒有當事人能力因為法規沒有規定嘛 他就要開始舉證證明其實這是耗時的 其實這條規定真的要拜託委員能夠支持因為他是讓民眾方便 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
5401.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
5423.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
其實對法院法官來講我一樣嘛我還是要判斷可是最少他先進來因為我在稅籍上我就被課啦我的名字就在上面啊我的門市就在上面那至於這個門市會是非法人團體嗎還是什麼什麼什麼那不知道我們也不問而是讓你就進來訴訟你來主張你權利有什麼受損你我不應該負擔什麼義務真的這個規定其實是開一個大門 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
5432.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
5458.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
讓民眾我只要在租稅法上我被課予了義務我認為不當我認為要請求就近我就進來了而不要經過委員能夠了解當事人能力的認定有時候在前階段就造成人民很大很大的負擔其實重點在這個而已它有沒有擴增很大其實老實說 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
5460.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
5487.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我相信在租稅法上他還是會認定誰可以成為納稅義務人可是當租稅法認為你是納稅義務人我們進到法院我們就承認你有訴訟當事人的能力其實是開大門讓必須負擔租稅義務的民眾很容易使用到那個法律程序的救濟所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
5488.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
5512.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
真的我希望大院能夠支持這個真的對人民在訴訟上第一關就非常的方便好是謝謝秘書長我是想說你們是舉個具體的例子來講是什麼樣的案子在現在依據現行的行政訴訟法沒有辦法解決但是一定必須要透過這個條文的修正然後呢他讓他能夠取得當時的能力對 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
5514.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
5541.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
有沒有一個具體的實例可以告訴我們我現在講一個門市門市像我們7-11門市Costco的Costco當然因為他的分公司大家會想到公司那家樂福的據點其實只要想到門市跟據點門市跟據點它是不是一個非法人團體這個如果對照當事人他增值的話馬上就要先調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
5543.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
5567.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
可是我只要我門市我是據點我在被課稅了我稅籍登記給我了你也認定我要去繳納營業稅了那我就進來了我認為我全力受罪這些的話不是就是中華民國的公司他即便是分店他也有個別的這個稅籍或者是沒錯就說我們還要去判斷那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
5568.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
5580.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
因為我不知道稅級跟營業登記在租稅法上是不是同意我們就是讓他方便我們不要再去做這個判斷不判斷他當然會如同委員搞不好就是同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
5581.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5608.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
可是我不用再去調資料來看我要什麼其實就是一個方便當事人使用法院的概念下去讓這個租稅法上你只要負擔義務你就進來吧其實這個條文最重要的目的是在這裡以上跟委員說明一下這個第四條是這樣子這個確實你像比如說我收到稅單 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5610.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5624.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
我有行號 我有分公司 我收到我就可以有具備當事人的能力這個其實對於人民來講的話我也不會無所適從來總公司對我的權利來講的話對老百姓來講 這一條來看的話我看起來就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5631.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5637.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
就是說這個雖然程序門檻是放寬啦但是對於被告機關也比較明確化啦這心智上當然對於過去的那種困境也有突破就是說現在心智的效益就是說如果通過之後就是說我如果收到稅單什麼人我可以去交啊你商號啊 還是說你合夥組織啊我就可以讓自己我的名義在法庭上主張我自己的一個權利啦這對於整個老百姓在司法上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5660.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5682.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
參與的一個程序是一種擴大 這是權益義務的一個主體跟以前的困境可以解決就是說 選擇告錯人或資格不符否則如果資格不符的話 法案就直接就把你給撥掉啦所以我會覺得大肆調 但是是不是我們就沒有其他的不同意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5684.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5711.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
對於老百姓的權利上來講的話就是說的保障那沒有去衝擊而且也可以解決一些事情是不是我們第四條就尊重就按照司法院的提案來通過那其他呢對於其他像譬如說大家有所餘力的部分我們就可以來做好好討論好不好那各位委員如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5712.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5714.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
沒有其他的意見的話第四條我們我們就按照司法院的提案通過那來接下來第五條請問在場的委員有沒有什麼就當事人事格的問題請大家來表達看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5735.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5752.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
還是請司法院去說明一下因為這案子都已經過了很久了好 我們在第五條請來再做說明好不好主席 那我們廳長來舉例說明可以嗎可以 謝謝那跟委員報告第五條我們規定的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5753.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5773.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
被告機關在訴訟中到底誰來擔任被告機關那前段是一個原則性的規定也就是必須是原處分機關做成處分的那個機關來當被告那但是我們在但書這裡有做了一個特別的一個除外的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5774.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5802.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
也就是說如果今天訴願決定是第一次侵害到第三人的權益的話那這個時候是可以例外的以訴願決定機關作為被告那其實如果以土地稅法的規定來說的話地價稅原則上是由土地所有權人要來繳納的但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5803.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5810.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
另外他可以申請郵戰友人來繳納那如果今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5811.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5834.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
土地所有權人A他就依照土地稅法的規定來申請佔有人B來繳納地價稅那基增機關准許了那就會做成一個就是由B來繳這個地價稅的處分那這個處分是有利於A的 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5835.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5858.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那可是因為他的效率會急於B也就是戰友人會受到不利因此戰友人他是可以提訴願的如果戰友人他今天提訴願的結果訴願把他翻過來了去把原來機關準的這個處分把它撤銷掉那就會變成就是要由A來繳了 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5860.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5870.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
不是由B來繳 因為第一次做成的原處分機關做成的決定是A可以不用繳 改由B來繳 結果訴願來 聽長 我們的實體好不好我們用具體的案件我們說 譬如說你 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5880.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5892.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
原儲分機關開出來以後有可能是地方政府或者什麼樣的一個機關然後原儲分機關開出來以後那當然當事人就老百姓不服我就提起訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5893.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5907.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那提起訴訟呢 當然 訴怨 提起訴怨那你訴怨以後呢 一般就是跟上級機關上級機關去做撤銷或者變更的一個決定我們一個機關機關的具體化啦不然我們只有在那訴怨啦 決定機關啦 有的沒的都廢啦 我覺得聽到這名字就廢了好不好我們就把它白話的 比較具體的 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5924.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5932.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
我跟委員先說一下,因為剛剛翁委員要求司法院這個地方先說明A跟B,A是所有權人,B是佔有人土地 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5947.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5965.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那因為他是戰友人所以本來是A要繳地價稅所有權人那B不用繳可是講好了由B去繳那個稅捐機關也同意地方政府也同意好讓他繳可是在這個過程中發生了爭執的時候他 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5966.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5988.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
的繳納,他可能有什麼增值我們先不管,有個增值他這個繳納義務,如果他對他繳納義務或者稅款有增值的話那對他做不利,有利就走吧,你不用繳或者是說這不是你繳,而要回頭去找所有權人的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5991.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
6016.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
因為同樣一批土地又有所有權又有占有人地方政府的稅監單位認為不是你占有人講應該是所有人講那他就跑來找所有人所以我們會出現一個為什麼會有第三人的權利本來納稅一人只有一個可是因為在土地的占有跟所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
6017.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
6039.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
又同時都可以講好就去負擔義務的狀況下就會有第三人出現這個就是一個很標準的例子我如果這樣有人不講那我所有權人就要講喔可我所有權人會有爭執啊你把它撤銷怎麼變成我講那我又要訴願或者是訴願在行政訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
6045.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
6074.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
我可以不要講話嗎我當然要講話就等於說讓這個會被權利我們有發那個權利跟義務跟利益就是權益權益會被侵害的這個第三人他是有異議的讓他也可以我雖然不是你的訴願決定的對象可是我也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
6075.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
6088.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
當那個以訴願決定什麼決定機關為被告其實就是把它擴大你去想民事訴訟的第三人參與就那種概念就是把它擴大而不是單純只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
6091.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
6121.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
一個人那種概念我不知道我這樣講各位可以理解我想這邊不好意思召委接下來我發言我剛剛想要先發言其實我是想提醒司法院因為我們有在公聽會聽到在法條跟實務配套上希望法院能夠更保障當事人的權益因為法規技術面一般民眾很容易搞不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
6121.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
6143.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
他告錯機關那這其實是人民對於國家是不是侵害他的權利義務的一個訴訟所以是不是容許度能夠高一點或者是有一些協助更正的機制而不是就直接駁回這部分希望司法院也可以聽到這樣的聲音那保障人民的訴訟權益好 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
6146.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
6164.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
好 我要針對這一條來談因為你們第五條的但書的規定基本上是顛覆整個行政訴訟裡面下的規定也就是說是沒有哪一個案件會以訴願決定機關為被告也就是以訴願會為被告向來都是回到原處分機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
6166.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
6178.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
對 所以你如果說今天以訴願會為被告的話我認為這是很有問題的因為你如果說今天一個處分他訴願 訴願到了訴願會訴願會對於這個案子重新做了一個審理有可能是原處分撤銷他會另為適當處分或者是說訴願會在極少數的案件他會自為處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
6194.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
6212.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
但是無論如何就是說在這樣的情況之下通常來說就算是本來是對A所做的處分後來書院會把它撤銷了然後就說那應該是由B來承擔但也是由原處分機關他會自己再做一個針對B的處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
6214.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
6230.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
那麼如果B不服他就會再提起訴願他再由訴願委員會來決定可是你們現在是整個就是以訴願會來作為被告機關是這樣的意思對我看起來你們現在第五條的但書的規定似乎就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
6231.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
6245.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
就是完全就是跟我們向來的現在整個溯源的程序是有很大的不同而且未來溯源會承擔很大的責任溯源會它本身又不是對於整個處分的案子有這麼這麼的了解對 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
6248.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
6267.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
這個我是不是會來跟大家一併來討論,加入討論啊,就是說,黃委員你要看原來,你像譬如說,其實這一條在處理的是說,老百姓要告誰的問題啦你今天去拿國稅局給他做出來的處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
6268.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
6284.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
我一般老百姓就是說 誰給我罰單給我寄過來我就告誰 很明確嘛所以原則上是原處分機關嘛但是呢 站在老百姓的立場阿伯又起立了 蘇燕起立了財政部也有做一個變更的決定啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
6285.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
6291.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
那上級機關 啊這時候你是要告財政部 還是要告國稅局如果站在便利人民的立場裡面的話 我反而認為把他滾開或者說你財政部你今天做出來的決定 去親愛到第三人有可能親愛到第三人啦 這條在說當事人誰適格 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
6306.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
6321.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
就是被告機關啊用什麼人來做被告什麼人來做被告呢站在民眾的立場來看的話我是這樣啦我審理這一部法律我是比較站在老百姓的立場給老百姓利益然後呢不會侵害到老百姓的權利的 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
6322.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
6349.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
我是站在這樣的一個立場在看待這一部法律所以我才一直在講說不管說以前你們黃國昌委員在的時候我們一直在論戰嘛論戰都是涉及到全部都是法律真的這種法律是最沒有黨派的就是整個稅務行動的一個行政事件的一個審理法所以各位的意見我都非常的覺得非常的一個寶貴啦然後是不是我們比較聚焦站在我們要管理的行政機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
6350.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
6355.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
其實稅務喔 我們牛毛啦 我跟你講稅務真的是像牛毛但是如果是比較便利於民眾的我們就採在比較這樣的一個立場比較技術性的東西是不是我就比較尊重就是對於 因為這個其實不是只有第五條啊這個第五條 你看你這個到最後你會處理到那個萬年稅單的問題啊我們上次在討論的時候都有去提到啊這個其實你如果真正要講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
6378.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
6397.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
你還要搭配到那個第八條去看所以這個我是覺得來我再多聽一下大家的意見我想莊兆維可能是站在就是人民的立場但是我今天因為我擔任過非常多行政機關溯源會的委員我很清楚溯源會的組成以及他的職權他的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
6399.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
6417.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那麼你們說訴願決定第一次侵害第三人的權利或是法律上利益者他會體現在什麼樣的情況之下他會認為說他是侵害到第三人權利一定是在訴願決定書裡面但是這訴願決定書是明明是原來的受處分人他所提的 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
6418.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
6443.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
的這個訴願書那只是在訴願決定裡面的理由會認為說那我之所以撤銷原處分是因為我認為說這個稅不應該刻在這個這提起訴願人的原處分人的身上而是應該刻在那個所謂第三人的身上所以如果你們從這個角度的話會認為那就代表說這是侵害第三人的決定但是無論如何他的訴願決定還是針對那個原處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
6447.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
6457.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
還是針對原處分所以我會認為說就是說你們現在這樣的一個做法第一個它的確顛覆了整個的行政訴訟的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
6484.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
6503.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
很抱歉因為我今天在教文委員會那邊一個文化部的我刪了文化部的這個預算全刪那光是這個案子就已經討論了一個半小時到現在都還沒有結束所以剛剛就是趙薇打電話來教文趙薇打電話問我我說我還是堅持我的案子所以不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
6504.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
6532.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
對他就問我要不要回去我說也沒關係啦反正如果是這樣的話真的沒有辦法如我的意義的話我還會在第二輪我還會再提全山那現在是說就是說因為第五條的這個部分就像我剛剛講它會造成整個在溯源的食物當中會產生一個問題因為溯源委員會它的委員是浮動的它不見得每一年它不見得三年五年都是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
6533.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
6536.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
不過我們現在我們現在決定的不是什麼書院委員會喔我們現在講的是對沒錯可是我們現在講的是機關喔誰可以來當被告的問題喔你說原處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
6551.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6559.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
機關就是以訴願會當被告我認為這其實也不是以訴願會當被告可是你這上面就是這麼講我知道啦我意思是說你譬如說我們現在不要說名詞我們用很實務的東西我們這叫做稅務行政事件的一個審理嘛你涉及到一定是涉及到國稅局一定涉及到財政部我們就簡單的理解就好嘛台北市你國稅局有可能因為財政部裡面底下都有派出機關嘛你國稅局各縣市的國稅局 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6580.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6592.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
你做出一個 你成招之修了一張碎端 那個就是一個行政處分嘛那這個行政處分來以後你會覺得你不服氣啊 你就訴怨他們你給上級機關你去訴怨了 財政部你不管做變更你是全部把它撤銷或一部分的一個撤銷撤銷完以後可能會影響到第三人的權益啊 這個時候要決定被告 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6603.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6626.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
你是要原處分機關 你要告 你要行政訴訟行政訴訟 我們現在已經不是跟你說訴願程序我要走到法院去了那走到法院去 你要去決定 你要告誰我要告台北市國稅局 還是我要告財政部原則上我們就是被告一定就是原處分機關嘛 合理嘛但是如果涉及到有第三人的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6627.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6650.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我不要讓老百姓走不下去啦 我就整天做一天把你們救過之後 我就...那個意思不是這樣子 譬如說是 如果說以我跟陳昭之委員來講如果說本來稅是科我的稅 我不服 然後提起了訴願然後訴願機關說 這對確實不應該科翁小玲的稅 應該是科陳昭之的稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6653.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6656.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
所以這個訴願的決定是對我有利的但是對陳昭芝不利的所以我不可能再提起訴願我也不可能再去告訴願會因為這是對我有利的我也不可能再繼續提起行政訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6683.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6705.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
委員會嗎不會告書院委員會書院一定是告機關所以你這邊的書院決定的書院決定你如果提及書院的話假設是財政部的話我當然會告你財政部啊因為是你做出的決定現在到第三者啊到底是誰是原來受處分的那個人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6708.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6712.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我知道翁委員的問題了 我試著這樣去想好了翁委員的意思就是 他也要理清問題 你原來國稅局做出來的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6722.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6752.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
翁委員不服翁委員就提起訴願提起訴願以後財政部做一個變更那這個變更以後呢就告完來不一樣啦啊現在翁委員要告誰翁委員到底是要告所以嘛所以我的意思是對你的憂慮啊你就不會告啊那一定是親愛的第三人啊是我的意思你是對你是有利你不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6753.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6756.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
是 沒有 他這個就是說就是說站在第三者的立場來說程昭芝她要去告國稅局嗎程昭芝說我跟國稅局干我屁事是你財政部做出的決議才把我程昭芝牽扯進來的所以程昭芝你就直接告這個書院決定機關財政部就好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6782.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6793.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
你聽到我的意思嗎就是讓老百姓方便我跟大家報告一下我這副法如果都站在人民比較便利性不會去侵壓到人民的立場你們放心好了我覺得我是法官在纏綿 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6799.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6817.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
莊昭偉 不是只有你在人民立場 我也在人民立場因為行政訴訟 或者是行政的法律究竟途徑 它有一個特殊性你要考慮到就是 這個做成處分的機關那現在所有的卷宗案件 都在原處分機關的手上那更何況我們剛剛講 你撤銷了原處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6822.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6834.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
的這個訴願決定書他的受文者也是給那個當事人原來的當事人對第三人來講他可能只是拿到一個副本所以對第三人來講他並沒有做成一個行政處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6836.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6859.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
她竟然沒有做到一個行政處分你就直接讓她說我就可以去告那個訴願會我認為這個基本上是完全顛覆了我們在講的行政救濟途徑的這樣的一個順序而且她以受處分當勝才可以提起訴願然後才可以進一步提起行政訴訟對 我知道 但是因為她是第三人理論上來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6870.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6886.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
對 但是他也要有一個決定或一個處分書或收到一個什麼嘛但是書院決定書基本上他的名字沒有在上面 因為他是第三人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6889.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6906.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
對 法律效果會急於它所以現在現在訴訟有所謂第三人訴訟嗎這一條第五條就是在講冤有頭債有主啦我現在講就是說現在行政訴訟上面有所謂第三人效力訴訟嗎那它是可以直接越過它是直接可以去告那個來 那個我們不要繞這樣我們就請來財政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6915.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6921.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
你現在 你如果說不出來 你要打屁股啊馬上講一個案例 出來解釋清楚你不舉我就幫你們舉囉 好不好 來 隨便講一個案例很清楚的 你舉沈花卉好了 第三人就舉范雲 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6937.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6960.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
先跟我主席報告因為這邊這個條文的設計它有個前提就是這個說明欄的頭的帽子它這個帽子是在具第三人效力處分的情形下所以如果到你講這個是在你提前在播的講具體案件講具體案件把這個整個條文把它解釋清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6960.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6975.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
像我們剛剛司法院這邊舉的例子就是說它有一個指定使用人當地價稅的納稅一文的處分為前提的話那它當然就會落到我們這個條文的適用那是什麼 要再解釋什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6978.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6996.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
本來我們應該是對所有全能課嘛但是因為他現在有一個戰友人當使用人所以我們基層機關如果有做一個處分說那我現在對這個第三人就是對這個戰友人做一個納稅的處分為前提的話那就會落到我們這個條文的規範但是如果沒有這個帽子沒有這個前提的話他是不會進到我們這個條文裡面來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
7003.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
7020.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
是嘛,其實我不知道這個冤有仇債有主什麼人被刑罰受到行政處分的人有所不服的人他才會去訴怨嘛那以訴怨來講的話我提上去的話就有訴怨決定對有利或不利嘛那有利我當然不會去訴訟嘛那不利之後我就要進到這個訴訟體系來嘛理論上都是以原處分機關當被告嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
7030.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
7056.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
但是問題是起立之後有訴願決定他變更原處分了嘛那變更原處分整個涉及到第三人權益受到侵害啦你說你本地官來就說好了啊你佔有人你要去叫的啊你叫了之後有所不服現在地主委的本意可以加起來嘛加起來之後他就是一定是典管變更原處分的人我就以他為被告就好啦目標就很明確了嘛因為有做一個變更的處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
7058.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
7061.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
是 我覺得這個在便利人民為什麼不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
7062.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
7064.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
我盡量來表達啦 被告機關是誰做出的行政處分假設說是我們兩個之間的問題一旦是對他有利的 但是又波及到我的時候我剛剛就問說 那我要去找誰 你說我要去找財政部喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
7089.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
7091.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
因為財政部去變更讓你受到不利益啊我現在請 蘇聯機關不可能變成這個被告蘇聯機關也不會因為變更要課另外一個第三個人的稅我現在請財政部回答我 事情是這樣的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
7105.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
7117.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
我請財政部回答我是這樣的嗎我懂 我懂 陳委員這個案例 他們比較厲害有時候我們大聲地鬧開財政部講清楚你會讓陳高知委員這麼生氣代表你們沒有講清楚我替人民問問題啊 我不會鬧開啊我不會鬧開啊 不會啊是啦 沒有 這個對於數位有專攻啦你們用白話把它講出來好不好這個地方本來就要講白話啊對啦 講白話啦 不會電檔 大家都在聽啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
7137.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
7140.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
財政部講話因為陳委員要求財政部 要不然這條我三句話就說得很清楚 但是我是主席我不能講人家要求財政部就財政部來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
7160.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
7189.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
跟主席還有陳委員報告因為剛剛舉的這個模型是地方稅地方稅原則上是發生在地方政府那財政部的主管的國稅的部分原則上如果在剛剛我們這個案子裡面是應該目前我們實務上是沒有在做對這個第三人做這個處分的這個作業所以不會有發生這種情形不過地方稅可能會有我要告的 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
7190.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
7206.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
就是你啊 我要告狀的地方就是你啊我要告的地方就是財政部啊如果是對 剛剛我們舉的地方稅的案子是那個跟地方政府做溯源那國稅部門才會跟我們的財政部做溯源啊這樣早晚你說錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
7208.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
7229.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
是你說不對嗎所以如果地方政府的這個例子這個我不會說不對啦我眼睛閉上去我也不會說不對你現在很模糊啊不會啦沒有啦我們這樣子啦這個案子我們就不用去有什麼我們就用我們的感覺日常生活在處理什麼事情就好了嘛你日常生活你賭到你家的財產嘛對不對像我來你家我幫你做一個土地啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
7233.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
7250.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
你土地做完了 說好了 地價稅上立 以一般台北市國稅局來講法就是地點館的成招資的名當然也稅單一定開給你成招資的啊 那你一定不服啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
7251.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
7272.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
你連藝術院的啊 你連藝廉廉財政部聽啊 說國稅是從歐北來的啊那條稅金要賺到最高的賺不到是怎樣 我陳昭芝賺不到啊財政部就覺得陳昭芝的講法是對的啊所以說變更原來的處分決定啊啊 我就跳腳啦啊我當然就去告財政部啦 一定是這樣啊 沒變啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
7276.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
7298.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
來來來,我主席不適宜介入太深這個東西就是說你原處分原處分跟你沒有關係原處分機關你現在如果去告原處分機關本來對你沒有不利益是因為訴願的結果訴願機關所做的訴願結果才對你產生不利益所以你現在如果沒有這一條你就還是要去告原處分機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
7301.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
7328.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那他現在訂了這一條之後你就直接對做成溯源的機關因為做成溯源的機關才對你造成不利益嘛那所以現在這一條就是讓你可以直接誰做成對你造成不利益你就找誰意思大概白話就是這樣啦那剛才這個翁委員所講的就是翁委員講的不是沒有道理你的意思就是說他本來他不是當事人他沒有行政處分他是第三人 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
7329.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
7345.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
但是其實原本民事訴訟裡面也有第三人的撤銷之訴的規定就算這個我們現在目前行政訴訟沒有但是民事訴訟裡面有喔第三人你如果這個民事訴訟第507之1條他就有第三人可以撤銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
7346.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
7359.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
如果你們兩個當事人的判決,判決出來是對我造成不利益我是第三人,本來是你們兩個人的訴訟跟我無關但是因為你們兩個判決之間對我造成不利益我可以提起要求撤銷這個判決的訴訟現在這條在行政訴訟法上面的這個意思我想應該是這樣解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
7368.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7389.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
是可是畢竟民事訴訟跟行政訴訟是不一樣的他多了一個前置的訴願的程序我說在你們原來的現在行政訴訟裡面是可以直接針對訴願決定委員會直接提訴訟的嗎是可以那為什麼那如果是這樣你們幹嘛話舌添足要多增加第五條咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7392.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7394.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我跟委員報告就是目前委員講的都正確但是您之前舉的例子就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7415.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7440.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
單純的沒有涉及到第三人的權益的那種例子就完全是按照委員講的那但是其實行政處分有一種情況是會涉及到第三人的權益的所以在訴訟救助訴訟救濟過程中可能就會有剛才委員們舉的那個例子影響到第三人權益那目前行政訴訟法24條就有類似的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7443.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7462.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
他就是說那如果是那個駁回訴願因為訴願駁回那你就是告原處分機關嘛對不對因為他是維持了原處分機關的決定所以你就是去告原處分機關但是如果是去撤銷變更你原處分的時候這個時候就是去 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7463.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7490.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
去告撤銷或變更的機關這是目前行政訴訟法的規定所以目前行政訴訟實務上就是有被告是訴願決定機關那我們為什麼要在這裡這樣子規定就是誠如范委員剛才有詢問到的就是因為行政處分你到底要告誰其實關係有一點複雜我們在訴訟中常常看見當時 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7492.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7511.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
發現就是當事人不知道到底告誰常常告錯機關因此我們行政訴訟法就有規定說當民眾不知道告誰他告錯機關你不可以直接把他的訴訟駁掉你這個時候你必須要請他補正告訴他說你真正正確的該告哪一個機關以哪一個機關為被告請他來補正 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7514.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7539.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
這是因為行政的一個特殊性那因此我們才在這裡把他很明白的規定告訴當事人你到底在什麼樣情況下你是告原處分機關在什麼情況之下你是告訴願決定機關我覺得就是在這裡講清楚說明白讓人民在適用上也有所遵循那不是發生誤會那以上說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7543.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7566.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
來 請翁曉琳委員如果說是今天第五條的規定你是說在原來的行政訴訟法第24條裡面就已經有的話那我就建議說第五條這裡就不要定了免得話舌天足這邊又講到什麼訴願決第一次侵害第三人的涉及第三人效率處分以權訴願決定機關我被告坦白說這樣的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7569.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7583.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
的敘述是不清楚的你訴願決定機關到底是指的那個譬如說假設是新竹市政府為被告還是新竹市政府訴願會為被告你在原來的行政訴訟法裡面它是為撤銷或變更的機關對所以如果這條刪掉就是回到你行政訴訟法仍然是可以適用不是嗎不對我看這樣不是那個我來跟大家試著跟大家來 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7600.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7613.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
來跟大家再解釋一下你去看行政訴訟法第24條就是說你如果有經過訴願程序的行政訴訟它說規定它的機關是什麼你如果駁回訴願的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7614.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7624.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
你說你從地方 不管是縣到行政院或者說你是稅務 現在稅務機關 國稅局到財政部是駁回的 你就以原處分機關當被告這沒有問題嘛 你如果是那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7632.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7660.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
訴願上去 財政部你給我變更的啊 或者幫我撤銷的啊我有所不服啊 或者你變更只有一部分而已啊有所不服的 當然就以訴願機關頂管這個 你二十四條的意思就是這樣嘛對 撤銷機關來當成被告嘛 這沒有問題啊 之所以第五條要規定 它有它的實意啦等於說涉及到第三人權益的時候撤銷變更這樣的一個處分你本來跟我無關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7661.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7684.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
你們兩個 國稅局給你們出分你們去訴願你們家的事情 到時候有什麼關係可是你這個撤銷以後那變成是說這個稅單到最後弄到我這邊來啦啊我這個時候我不用再跟你講什麼 我還要再跟你訴願我就直接來提起訴願 我說欸 法院我受到委屈了 你要幫我處理我是覺得把他加進來的話是有他的實慾來 審判會委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7685.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7713.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
他加在最大的差別在你現在目前如果剛剛所舉的這個行政訴訟法第24條這個他他只規定被告被告有有這個變更有這個這個這個撤銷跟變更但他沒有把效率擴到擴張到第三人第三人這就是權益受損第三人你如果按沒有這一條你按照只用行政訴訟法他第三人是沒有辦法提告的是他他這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7714.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7719.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
把原告給擴張到第三人權益受損的第三人這個他的實意 增訂這一條的實意在這裡以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7725.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7748.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
主席我再請教一個問題剛剛因為財政部講的說你提到什麼地方稅、國稅啦那我覺得不是這樣區分不是區分這個什麼財政部或地方政府你開出來的稅單如果只有A沒有B譬如說原來是翁委員那沒有陳昭芝那溯源機關認為是如果說納稅人是B的時候他不會自己把 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7749.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7763.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
B的名字放上去啊他不會把稅單改成是B啊他一定是發為就是原處原處分機關的再來做重新重新做處分啊就是就是事情就是這麼這樣子來的所以那個萬年稅單就是這樣子出現的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7770.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7779.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我的理解就是這樣啊所以不要用地方罪和國罪來唬我我會站在你的立場啦你放心啦我是怕你沒有講清楚我要幫你講清楚啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7785.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7801.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我不會跟你吐槽,我哪有可能跟你吐槽就是說這部話論,真的也不是只有這樣看啦你這個第五條,你如果說實在話,你再翻一下十九條這個其實就是要把紛爭一次性去把它做解決啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7803.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7821.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
不是你有意見有意見都很好我意思就是說以你成招之的功力應該可以講得更清楚讓老百姓更可以理解你這麼專業你知道嗎問題是你現在都陷入這個就是說我們有幾條喔我跟你們都一樣的就是大家有疑慮的 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7821.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7828.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
為什麼要疑慮 因為那個對老百姓不利的 我當然要有疑慮啊像這一些對老百姓有疑慮的 我當然也要支持 紛爭做一次來不要讓我們老百姓說錯了 我來搞了 現在換人家跟我說你搞錯了啦 你要去搞國稅局啦 你要去搞財政部來 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7841.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7866.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
所以我的意思是說 站在老百姓 老百姓不一定懂法律嘛我給老百姓一個方便性 讓他涉及到這個行政處分你只要有訴願決定的 那個變更處分的你造成第三人更不利益的話 一次來做解決你香港走出來 財政部本來就沒有我的事情為什麼你還要說我造成第三人造成我的不利益當然我就以你那個撤銷跟變更機關來當被告啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7867.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7871.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
是這個藝術啦對老百姓有利的藝術啦我這樣講對啦後面你們這些專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7876.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7881.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
她說都給她點頭 都給她點頭 我也不是這一點在聽她我們這一題是 站在我們立法院自己來看就是說我們老百姓給我們支持的啊我覺得一個法律的修正 不能夠只是看就是說因為它又涉及到行政訴訟這涉及到整個國家的公權力機關做的行政處分然後針對公權力機關所做的行政處分的救濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7901.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7914.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那麼我現在要談的就是說你行政訴訟法的第24條裡面現在所謂的被告有沒有涉及到如果說是涉及到第三人效力處分的話第三人也是可以同樣的是以撤銷貨幣跟原處分機關作為被告嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7916.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7917.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
跟委員報告24條我們看文藝解釋法律最怕文藝解釋你從文藝解釋是沒有第三人 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7937.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7955.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
對啦 24條沒有審到第三人啦所以如果沒有第三人的話那在實務上現在是擴大到第三人嗎對 實務上是透過法官在法規適用解釋上自己把它擴大可是民眾看不懂所以我們希望把它明文 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7956.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7961.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我想這邊建議林署長如果說你認為說行政訴訟法的第24條的這個規定基本上可以做更擴大的適用然後應該要提出行政訴訟法第24條的修法而不是在現在稅務行政事件審理法裡面去做這樣的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7983.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7993.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我再三強調你們今天這樣的修法這已經是顛覆了長久以來行政訴訟法行政訴訟或是我們講行政法律救濟的這樣的一個認定很少幾乎是以什麼訴願決定機關為被告的跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
8007.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
8029.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
其實24條就是有以訴願決定的機關實際上沒有點名第三人那其實為什麼我們沒有去修行政訴訟法因為就這個法規解釋適用他是很容易可以過關但是對民眾來講我看到這個條文我不知道我到底可不可以他一定會跑回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
8030.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
8057.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
如委員所說的我不是被處分的行政處分我可不可以啊什麼就剛我們聽到報告的會落入疑慮那我們要讓尤其對於稅務案件是老百姓常常碰到的我們希望在這邊告訴你你就是可以你不用擔心你就進到法院來吧法院也不用再一次一次的補正程序裡面去告訴你方向其實委員說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
8060.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
8065.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
確實如果我們行政訴訟法要修要不要直接修可是因為行政訴訟法是一本大法 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
8067.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
8092.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
在我們都知道基本法裡面有時候他是可以做經由這個食物間解的變更來擴張他的使用那是不是要在這邊去修呢那我們緩不及急因為現在就是睡省法在這邊的我們這邊趕快去讓他明確讓民眾知道說門就開在那裡你就走進來吧那你找對對一下就找那一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
8094.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
8117.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
剛剛主席講得非常對的 冤有頭債有主你去找你那個債主 那就是訴願決定機關那剛剛陳昭志委員我疑慮的說怎麼地方稅跟國稅其實是一樣地方稅是地方計政機關 他的訴願決定是地方政府那國稅是國稅局 那他的訴願決定機關會到財政部其實同樣的都會找得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
8118.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
8143.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
他的債主最重要第五條只是很簡單的告訴民眾說啊你就是被訴願決定給決定掉要受到侵害的人那你就來吧不用去等那個原處分機關去變更當然沒錯剛剛委員講的很對我撤銷了你原處分機關要變更啊怎麼怎麼有時候會反不及急 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
8144.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
8155.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
老實說這只是便利民眾去使用法院我覺得還是要拜託貴院能夠支持沒有 可是我認為這樣的做法其實會影響到這個會影響到行政機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
8161.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
8190.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
我認為會不管是做原處分機關或者是說是就訴願機關那因為訴願有的時候他只是撤銷原處分但是另為適當處分啊但你另外適當處分原處分機關都還沒有做適當處分的時候然後這個時候就已經允許第三人他可以以訴願機關為被告那我認為這個基本上是不妥的我相信訴願決定機關一定很感謝委員的發言可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
8192.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
8211.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
剛剛就是有時候數位決定撤銷以後原處分機關動作快嗎其實會出現一個落差很大的落差我們就說讓你有受到這個權益受侵害所以對第三人來講他還沒有受到任何的處分沒有沒有沒有決定裡面理由裡面已經認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
8212.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
8231.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
他是一個應該被課稅的對象應該被課稅但是該課多少稅不見得會在理由書裡面有寫清楚他可能有的時候只是認為說你行政機關你可能在事實調查的部分沒有認定清楚或者是說認為說他課稅的金額的多寡多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
8232.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
8233.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
所以我認為說其實你們開了這個門基本上看起來像是對第三人有利但是實際上它未來會在整個的食物作業上面會造成蠻大的困擾我認為說這條事就保留吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
8254.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
8259.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
我只想說我還要再了解一下因為這條條我盡量嘗試用你們法學的觀點來看就現在把稅務行政訴訟的被告定為原處分機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
8273.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
8276.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
因為要先有一個訴訟標的才有所謂的當事人的事格的問題那你現在是說為什麼這個法條它呈現的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
8286.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
8305.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
就是說你先把資格被告你用這個方式來呈現那你就是好像間接就在界定那個原來的那個你的標的是什麼所以我的疑問既然訴訟標的定義的是當事人資格那為什麼司法院你要選擇用這個方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
8308.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8312.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
以官方背後四個情況來呈現 不然你跟這條直接寫你的訴訟標的其實我簡單講 我這樣講不曉得對不對我認為我們這條修完以後你接下來你能行政訴訟法第24條你都要去修訂對不對所以你看我們現在立法院司法署委員會拿一條就變成說我們現在都認為應該要來修訂了來當 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8335.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8361.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
大道邊講起,我會覺得,但是也不能怪啊人家創造社會每天你叫他講違反的,他嚇嚇叫啊你去做這個,連法律人都未必會去深刻,沒有去深入的話有這塊來,確實是有一點困難啦但是我必須要再提出說明就是說這個讓老百姓不要告錯地方是好事啊讓他 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8363.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8377.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
分稱可以一次性來做一個解決我現在真的有點搞不懂說到底這一條的爭議在哪裡在我看是你所說的這個原本行政訴訟法第24條它就已經有針對你所 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8383.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8407.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
所以他並沒有改變現在任何的行政訴訟程序的精神或是邏輯都沒有啊因為原本24條就有他增加的部分就是以第三人你當原處分對第三人造成不利益的時候第三人可以有取得原告的資格原告的資格那被告是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8409.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8435.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
為什麼我會不利益不是原處分機關造成我的不利益而是訴願決定機關造成我的不利益所以我就直接找訴願機關就是這樣子那這個你說那回頭剛剛所以翁委員剛剛有提到說那應該要修行政訴訟法表示說你認為這樣子是沒有問題所以修行政訴訟法應該就從你覺得把行政訴訟法修到讓他擴張到第三人也可以成為原告 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8436.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8462.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
這可以啊,這未來就修,但是一定要說這裡把它保留,然後未來要整個修行政失重法嗎?過去不是啊,過去,像例如說我舉例,我們過去的這個有關於沒收,第三人的沒收的問題,我們也是食安法先走啊,食安法這個,你在這個特定的特別法裡面你先走,先走之後過一段時間,滿長一段時間,刑法才去修訂有關沒收,第三人沒收的規定嘛, |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8463.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8468.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那我覺得這個如果這樣子就是說我不曉得說這個修法我到現在聽不到就是說這個修法它造成了什麼問題什麼缺點都沒有我們剛剛所提的這一些你說說對這個這個溯源 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8479.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8492.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
這個訴願決定機關提的訴訟它精神跟行政訴訟法第24條是一樣的它沒有破壞也沒有改變任何現在的法制它只是增加了第三人明確化第三人受到不利益的時候他的這個訴訟對象訴訟對象是 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8496.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8525.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
造成我不利益的那個機關就這樣子所以我真的不曉得為什麼要保理我不曉得這下到底有什麼爭議行為你還沒有進來的時候我們就其實本黨一直對這個法的存在必要性急迫性一直有疑慮嘛你剛剛行政訴訟法還有這個所謂納稅人權益保障法嘛那現在要解決所以我一來就問他們要解決問題那時候還沒有三個委員在嘛那你要解決什麼問題到底現在你有什麼問題要解決那我了解說其中的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8526.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8553.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
萬年稅單的部分是一個concern但是那個萬年稅單是怎麼來就是整個一個訴願的過程就不斷的這個一再的重複因為法官法院沒有辦法自行去裁定所以他裁出來以後駁回去或是等等他又再來重複就是一直再來一次這個他要解決的問題到底是什麼所以我們一直在問你究竟想解決什麼問題為什麼現行的法律是不夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8554.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8579.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
就我們在從一個上位一開始第二會期我想就是我們的專家司法國商組也就是一直在表達這件事情所以我們因為有這個觀念有更上位的想法存在所以我現在遇到每個問題都卡住了原因是這樣啊我知道原因是這樣因為之前在審理審查的時候我也在你現在你把整部就是你現在變成你所整個就質疑這部法存在的必要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8579.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8605.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
包括一個核心嘛還包括這個稅務審查官嘛對那這樣子所有的結果我們現在我們已經過去已經通過了這些都沒有意義嗎照你講說過去我們通過了這些大家審查包括翁小玲委員也有參加我們大家都白痴會不會通過一個不必要的法沒有這樣子你現在突然又回頭我們已經審到這個足條你現在又回頭來挑戰這部法存在的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8607.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8619.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
我是覺得這一步是不是各位委員有所誤解我簡單喔因為你們講的就太虛無縹緲了因為這個是不不不我來講更具體我來講更具體我有兩個兒子我有兩個兒子有一天我會死有一天我死以後會產生遺產的繼承的問題要繼承的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8636.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8647.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
我們兩個兒子沒理會一個人 跟他主張說 欸 你要扣除啊那有未償還債務的問題啊我有可能撈 我們兒子 剛才我是撈 我說得比較好聽的好了我撈一百億 假設 我炒賣一下 撈一百億欸 我們兒子的姻女說 我們的老伯他有撈到一百億那未償還債務好多啊所以認為那個部分 我的繼承遺產就沒有那麼多啊好 啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8664.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8672.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
就做成訴願決定之後我用這個條文來看他就覺得說我那個我假設未償還債務是10億好了他認為我兒子會認為說你那個要扣除啊那個部分根本就不是財產嘛我不是繼承財產嘛那個部分如果真的要去扣除的話好啊現在我就我兒子就去訴願了訴願之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8692.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8694.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我為財政部提議 財政部說要收你那個不是只有沒有10億的未產完債務而已他發現海外有50億的財產 有可能喔這個時候怎麼辦 發現這樣的一個財產怎麼辦發現這樣的財產的話他會補科啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8716.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8734.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
他會補課啊 這是我們大兒子做的事情咧我們小兒子就覺得搞什麼關係 我大兒子去沒帶沒錢 你去輸燕尿海外原來可以繼承很多的財產 就變成說又被查出這一筆啊我小兒子就不服啊 他要告誰 這個時候要告誰 問題就來了問題我小兒子當然直接 財政部你嫌弱 我一下就告財政部了 這樣對不對萬一你點點 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8744.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8762.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
不對 你怎麼跟我說啊我就舉這個案例啊秘書長聽話他就一直點頭啊所以我在對這個條文的一個解釋是這樣子的因為變成說你那個訴願機關的做了決定又侵害到第三者我那個小兒子的權利啦所以這個就是訴願決定第一次侵害的第三人啊好 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8773.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8797.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我自己是第一次在司法法治委會審這個法案那我看了一下這其實是2017年司法改革國是會議成果報告書裡面希望能夠有的一個進步的司法改革增進人民權益的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8798.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8820.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
因為當時希望說能夠增設落實106年12月將施行的納稅者權力保護法設置財務法庭強化法官稅務的專業能力並研究相關的諮詢和解調解等程序當然如果大家覺得這個版本不夠好那應該可以提出修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8820.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8841.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
或者是提出自己的版本比如說無人機各黨提自己版本可是我自己是覺得我到現在為止剛剛召委的解釋跟他們的解釋這條我不是法律人我都聽懂了這應該是增進納稅義務人的權利讓他更了解所以我是不太知道說為什麼這個法審了這麼久 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8844.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8866.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那我還是希望說能夠有共識的話我們以落實司法改革那如果覺得設計不好的部分比如說我看上次大家的討論覺得這個稅務官如果專業背景不應該是從稅務機構應該從會計師等等我覺得就很好啊那這個就是可以的修正跟提醒以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8867.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8874.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那我是覺得這一條的設計我聽了這麼久我也已經聽懂了覺得是OK的那希望大家能夠有一些共識可以推進吧 以上來 翁小玲委員我想我們今天是因為討論到第五條這也是很關鍵的一個條文我要談的就是說整個稅務行政事件審理法草案它現在看起來就像是一個行政訴訟法的一個特別法 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8894.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8910.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那麼很多的問題就在於說如果說認為行政訴訟法該修那就去修行政訴訟法因為涉及到整體制度的問題可是你現在不能講說你那個大原則在行政訴訟法它所建立一些制度或是它就算是實務上面它可能也先擴大解釋適用可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8911.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8924.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那有不適合的地方你就要去修行政訴訟法那現在又在第五條裡面然後增加這個規定那麼我個人是反對我反對這個條文我坦白說我就是反對這個條文因為我認為說這個會給一般的這個訴願決定機關會造成很大的負擔而且裡面的問題很不清楚因為訴願決定的情況太多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8936.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8961.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
有時候他是針對事實的認定認為是有出問題所以撤銷原處分那有些是認為他法律適用上面有問題撤銷原處分等等的那我不認為說在第五條裡面那麼要給予這個當事人這麼大的一個權利然後直接以數月決定機關為被告是妥當的所以我這裡是反對原本行政訴訟法裡面就24條就是這樣規定現在是賦予第三人你現在24條你等於說是實務上要擴大解釋適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8970.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8994.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
對這個我舉例子 你們不要聽 我舉例子就很好了我們也有我們自己的例子沒有啦 我再舉 我剛剛可能沒講清楚啦我小兩個兒子 我有一天我站起來後我老了 今天你們不要笑 我舉這個一定很簡單那個食物商會碰到了嘛我莊瑞雄兩個兒子 有一天我會死掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8995.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8999.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
我留下一千萬好了一千萬的現金財產 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
9001.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
9023.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
結果呢 我大兒子說不對我爸爸還沒死掉以前 去跟范雲借了五百萬所以我的英記財產 我莊瑞雄的英記財產他不是一千萬 要扣掉跟范雲借了那五百萬合理嘛 我這個大兒子就很聰明囉財政國稅局你怎麼可以亂刻我爸爸的遺產哪有那麼多 我爸爸的遺產只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
9027.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
9046.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
表面上是一千萬可是他跟范雲借了五百萬那五百萬要扣除他不服啦訴願財政部認為說確實國稅局講錯了但是錯在於不是莊瑞雄跟范雲借了那五百萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
9047.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
9061.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
到底是真還是假財政部發現我在海外還有1億的資產所以把那個台北市國稅局撤銷然後要柯宇他做出一個處分我要多繳假設我要多繳3000萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
9066.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
9082.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
這是我兒子去訴怨訴到最後做出這樣一個不利益我小兒子就跳出來幹我屁事我以為要分錢了怎麼反而我的錢都不見了還要多繳這個時候我的小兒子就去告誰他就告財政部就好了第五條設計就是在講這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
9084.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
9112.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
他才說我討錢 他就討錢 國稅局的部分他沒有參與到啊他是那個財政部你變更這樣的一個處分造成我這個 怎麼說他我才來 說我自己就不好 要說別人所以我的意思就是很白話這樣的一個例子裡面第五條涉及到第三人 他是溯源機關的第一次的一個侵害的部分讓他紛爭一次來解決我們孩子就不用再遭遇台北市國稅局那裡了 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
9115.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
9126.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
做出這個輸判決定也跟國稅局無關啊所以親愛的他不是國稅局啊是你財政部啊所以第五條即使就是在解釋這個那各位當然我都很尊重啦這條就先這條我還是覺得這條實在是 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
9130.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
9135.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
這條是不用保留的 這條就對老百姓有一點我們現在就兩個爭點嘛其實是沒有爭點的 但是翁委員一直提出兩個質疑點一個就是說你這個直接對溯源機關來為被告有意見這就是原本行政事務法第24條的精神啊你去做變更跟撤銷的機關啊所以這個部分我不曉得問題在哪裡第二個就是說把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
9157.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
9163.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
賦予受到不利益的第三人提起訴訟的權利這個擴張我不知道為什麼要反對我也不知道為什麼要保留我們為什麼要保留說第三人受到這個精神有很多的法令都有相關的規定例如說這種建築建築我合法建造給你 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
9180.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
9205.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
對隔壁鄰居造成不利益隔壁的鄰居他也不是這個建造的合法者他根本不是當事人但他在建築法規裡面他就是可以提起訴訟例如說像這個你政府說不當補貼某一個行業同一個行業裡面我只補助這一間給他一些補貼那其他我同業競爭的人我就說那你我受到影響我也可以提起訴訟所以我不曉得說就這兩個點一個是就 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
9209.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
9238.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
以訴願做成訴願之機關為被告這一點的爭執這個等於是對刑事訴法第二次條的爭執我不曉得為什麼有爭執啦第二個就是說我們明定法條明定在這個稅務行政事件裡面明定第三人受到不利益的第三人可以提起訴訟到底有什麼需要保留的我真的不曉得 不知道說主席我不知道說這條保留是會利益的 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
9245.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
9262.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
這個還是要向社會大眾負責啦就是說司法院提出來的案子你如果我們去挑剔他說亂來侵害老百姓的權利那當然我們要來反抗司法院啦但是像這種條文是對人民是有利我看各位也沒有提出不利的見解的時候你硬要在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
9264.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
9290.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
但是 召委只能尊重大家 第五條 保留來 我們進入 先休息五分鐘主席十分鐘 因為我那裡的案子 我趕快要去好啦 那個 咱們尊重一下 你的朋友 讓他去招攤一下啦去街邊招攤一下沒關係啦沒關係啦沒關係啦 我們就盡力讓大家發言沒有辦法有達到共識的話 我就 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
9291.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
9296.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
因為拖太久了,讓我處理,我已經盡量跟你們解說了,不然要怎樣要先休息一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
9300.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
9321.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
我講執政黨不要再提二運私改了啦 私改丟死人了啦你們的私改都放光光了 現在突然間冒出來用你們的私改內容都是民眾黨在提的啦我跟妳講 這個跟私改都沒有關係這個反而是進步的法案所以你們那個都 你們逼哥倒菜哥什麼的亂說啊這進步 你們也跟他說退步的你們就說對老百姓不好的 我們就要把他凍掉對老百姓好的 大家在這裡亂說 我就不知道要怎麼說下去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
9337.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9338.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
更正更正 休息十分鐘 |