| IVOD_ID |
17560 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17560 |
| 日期 |
2026-07-01 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-19-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
19 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-07-01T08:39:14+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-07-01T12:08:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:28:46 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbe0f2bee81d4a52a7b338e017385a14647149c28021a3252016049025cbde6e1d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-07-01T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及法務部首長就「經濟部、國家發展委員會補助案審查機制、投資案審議程序中之利益衝突迴避規範全面性檢討」進行報告，並備質詢。
【7月1日及7月2日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:39:14 - 12:08:00 |
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SPEAKER_07 |
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12393.03096875 |
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12396.67596875 |
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SPEAKER_07 |
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12397.45221875 |
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12398.43096875 |
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SPEAKER_07 |
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12398.97096875 |
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12399.79784375 |
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SPEAKER_07 |
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12400.08471875 |
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SPEAKER_07 |
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12400.96221875 |
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12402.05909375 |
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SPEAKER_07 |
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12403.13909375 |
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12405.78846875 |
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SPEAKER_07 |
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12406.61534375 |
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SPEAKER_07 |
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12412.60596875 |
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SPEAKER_07 |
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12413.07846875 |
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SPEAKER_07 |
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SPEAKER_07 |
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12424.13159375 |
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12431.33721875 |
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SPEAKER_07 |
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12431.70846875 |
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SPEAKER_07 |
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SPEAKER_07 |
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SPEAKER_07 |
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SPEAKER_07 |
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SPEAKER_07 |
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SPEAKER_07 |
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12457.00409375 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
103.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
109.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
292.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
293.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
MING PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
439.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
441.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
758.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
758.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
谢谢观看,下次见! |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
919.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
947.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
字幕志愿者 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1249.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1273.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
好 我們現在開始開會請主席報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員9人 已足法定人數好 我們現在開會進行報告事項全體宣布上次會議事錄立法院第11屆第5會計經紀人會第18次全體委員會議事錄時間115年6月17日星期三上午9時至12時30分115年6月28日經濟室上午9時至12時57分地點紅樓101會議室出席人脈慵容等14人 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1279.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1298.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
列席官員核心存等八人列席官員115年6月17日星期三經濟部部長龔明星等115年6月18日星期四經濟部部長龔明星等主席召集委員洪玉祥115年6月17日星期三報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定討論事項審查115年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1299.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1315.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
抓證五種預算案附屬單位預算分營業部分關於經濟部主管經濟作業基金水資源作業基金經濟特別收入基金及核能發電後端營運基金經濟部部長龔明鑫報告後委員大院長本事務人提出質詢經由經濟部部長龔明鑫暨相關人員提起答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1315.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1344.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
登記發言委員除不在場者外區域經緯發言完畢詢答結束委員邱毅榮、傅坤琦及張家俊所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一周內書面答覆並附這本會委員另有要求期限者從即鎖定決議詢答結束另定期繼續審查115年6月28日星期四談事項繼續審查1.115年度中央政府總預算案關於經濟部部分2.115年度中央政府總預算案關於經濟部所屬單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1345.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1356.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
國際貿易署 能源署 水利署 地質調查及礦業管理中心決議一 稅率部分 第二款 罰款及賠償收入第133項 經濟部2300萬元 照列第135項 國際貿易署1800萬6千元 照列第138項 水利署及所屬8772萬元 5千元 照列 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1367.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1388.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
第1、4、2項 地質調查及礦業管理中心95萬3千元 照列第1、4、3項 能源署510萬元 照列第3款 公費收入第108項 經濟部75萬1千元 照列第112項 水利署及所屬1753萬7千元 照列第1、5項 地質調查及礦業管理中心3178萬6千元 照列第1、6項 能源署6235萬1千元 照列第4款 財產收入第1、4、5項 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1395.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1403.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
經濟部5395萬4千元遭獵第147項國際貿易署16億4千188萬7千元遭獵第150項水利署及所屬5908萬7千元遭獵第54項地質調查及礦業管理中心1億6千零42萬2千元遭獵第15項農業署7995萬1千元遭獵第15項營業營業及失業收入第26項經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1418.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1444.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
第三億四千八百七十八萬兩千元除第一目營業基金營業繳戶四十七億兩千六百五十六萬四千元及第二目非營業特種基金剩餘繳戶兩千七百一十八萬六千元佔照列是所屬營業基金及非營業特種基金審議確定再請調整外其餘均照列第七款其他收入第一十二項經濟部三億七千一百八十一萬三千元照列第一十四項國際貿易署 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1447.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1455.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
667萬7千人在列第47項 所依署及所屬9334萬2千人在列第151項 地質調查及公安管理中心74萬4千人在列第52項 能源署1686萬6千人在列2 稅務部份第13款 經濟部主管646億8493萬7千人 除第一幕營業基金1億 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1470.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1480.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
2701萬2千人及第12目非營業特種基金105億6131萬6千人佔遭列是所屬營業基金及非營業特種基金審議確定再行調整後的區域均遭列本項通過決議106項第三項國際貿易署16億7655萬9千人遭列 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1485.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1500.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
本項通過決議二十項 第六項 所依署及所屬四百六十四億八千三百一十八萬三千元照列本項通過三十六項 通過決議三十六項 第十項 地質調查及礦物管理中心十一億九千零三十萬一千元照列本項通過決議十一項 第十一 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1502.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1521.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
第十一項 聯運署191億7375萬5千億元 除第四目非營業特種基金106億1880萬元增招列是所屬非營業特種基金審議確定在行調整外基於均招列本項通過決議二十三項三 有關正式別輸出預算稅等以上機關別審查結果調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1522.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1533.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
4.115年度中央政府總會宣案,關於經濟部所屬單位預算會審訊部分,命定其積極審查。主席宣告,本次會議通過之決議,文字授權主席及議事委員整理,上會宣讀完畢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1534.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1561.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
好因為在場人數鬼員足三請問各位同仁上次會議事錄有錯誤好沒有錯誤議事錄確定請繼續進行報告事項請宣讀邀請經濟部部長國家發展委員會主任委員及法務部首長就經濟部國家發展委員會補助案審查機制投資案審議程序中之利益衝突回避規範全面性檢討進行報告並被執行宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1564.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1590.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我們介紹一下在場的這個機關委員這邊邱智偉委員 鍾嘉莉委員跟邱穎維那經濟部部長龔明鑫商業發展署署長蘇恩林中企署副署長李嘉錦國發會主委葉俊賢你腳好嗎行政院國家發展經濟管理會執行員汪庭安 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1592.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1620.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
法務部廉政署副署長林昭宏好本日議程排定經濟部國家發展委員會補助審查機制投資案審議程序中之利益衝突迴避規範全面性檢討進行報告並被質詢請經濟部長龔明欣報告三分鐘那接下來是國發會葉俊賢報告兩分鐘三分鐘應該就夠了我看完你的報告可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1626.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1641.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
謝謝主席還有各位委員大家早安那以下就是陳文貴委員會邀請本部就補述審查機制的利益衝突迴避規範全面性檢討報告那請各位指教那就本部 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1644.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1661.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
從這個補助計畫的審查規範來看依據產業創新條例的第九條第二項訂定有經濟部的協助產業創新活動補助跟獎勵的輔導辦法以及相關的規定本部跟所屬的機關都要依循這樣的相關的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1663.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1683.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
並且辦理補助的資訊公開確保補助計畫的公開、公平及有效的運作另外本部也制定了經濟部對民間團體以及個人補捐助預算執行的管考作業注意事項來加強管考作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1685.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
1711.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那另外我們對於流程上來講也對於申請對象的資格上的認定也有他明定的一些規範跟規定而且會查查說確保他這個計畫的執行期間沒有重複的申請補助那另外呢我們也邀請了這個外部的審查委員來本部跟所屬的相關機關都有邀請這個外部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
1711.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1733.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
学者专家还有产业工学会的代表召开这个审议会议并且按照这些委员的专业安排他的领域来安排审查那结合这个产业经验还有深入了解这个产业发展的环境跟需要来审查符合产业跟企业的特性提升他的补助效应 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1734.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
1762.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那另外呢對於這些審查委員來參與參與審查之前呢他們都必須簽署的利益衝突的迴避聲明那保密的竊結書等等的一些相關文件那同時呢我們也採取了所謂的分期的審查作業以利於這些企業界來訪的這個減少他們的這個出席成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
1763.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
1784.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那在经费上的核销的部分呢那我们也都依据了相关的一些法定还有个别申请须致的规范会计科目来编辑原则还有查核的要点来进行这个经费的查核跟核销而且由会计师办理经费的查作业 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
1785.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
1806.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那有关于利益冲突回避的相关的机制的部分呢那本部为了加强公务人员去落实这个公职人员利冲法的规范在113年6月13号也含之了所有的各行政机关所属各事业机构依据监察院113年6月6号 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
1808.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
1835.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
还有法务部同年的13号的通知来检讨怎么样避免公职人员的关系补助违反公职人员立冲法有相关的规范那我们也盘点了所有的相关规范确认了这些我们符合这个立冲法的相关的一些规范那包括流程也好也都符合这个相关的规范那以上简要的说明敬请指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
1836.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
1841.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
好接下來的話謝謝工部長接下來我們請這個國防會主委葉競選報告兩分鐘謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
1850.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
1876.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
主席各位委員還有各位現金大家好那陳蒙貴委員會邀請那國發會就經濟部國家發展委員會補助案審查機制投資案審查程序中之利益衝突迴避規範全面性檢討進行報告那本會請就行政院國家發展基金以下簡稱國發基金有關投資案審議程序中之利益衝突迴避規範的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
1876.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
1885.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
向各位委員提出說明敬請不吝指教那國家國發基金依據產業創新條例第29條設立那基金運用中只會加速產業創新加持促進經濟轉型及國家發展那透過投融資方式配合國家相關政策協助我國產業發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
1898.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
1916.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那國發基金直接投資案審議程序系經政策評估投資評估審議委員會還有管理委員會三階段投資審議程序通過後開始配合民間資金共同投資那有關創業天使投資方案審議程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
1918.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
1932.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
細採設置投資評估審議會協助進行相關投資審議事項並搭配天使投資人資金共同投資國發基金以投資方式協助我國產業發展與一般補助買賣、租賃、承攬或其他採購交易形態不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
1938.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
1952.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
受理申請投資案件依公職人員利益衝突迴避法規定辦理那針對外界對國防基金受理申請投資案件應符合利益衝突迴避機制那國防基金將依 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
1953.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
1979.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
公職人員利益衝突迴避法 主管機關之解釋及相關法令規定 客遵法令依法行政 以期確保受理投資案件申請作業之妥適及周延那最後國發基金投資相關作業將持續在既有的基礎上滾動檢討相關機制對外界所關切之資訊透明 利益迴避還有投資管理等議題 國發基金也非常重視 那並將在 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
1980.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
1993.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
依法行政及保障企業正當權益前提下持續完善相關投資作業的程序那以上報告敬請各位委員指教祝大家身體健康 萬事如意 謝謝身體要健康 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
1996.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2019.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
好謝謝這個葉主委那有關本次會議各部會所提之書面報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報那麼現在進行詢問委員諮詢權原例做以下的宣告每位委員發言時間本會員6分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會員5分鐘上午10點半截止發言登記首先請登記第一位的邱毅委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2030.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2039.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
好 謝謝主席我是不是請一下經濟部跟國發會好了兩位首長請工部長跟葉主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2048.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2072.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
兩位剛剛的報告內容其實針對我們今天主席排定的議程經濟部的補助案跟國發會的補助案有沒有利益衝突迴避的問題你們都給了非常清楚的答案我想更進一步請教就是說你們在審查這些補助案或者是投資案的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2073.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2091.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
其實你的主要的審核標準會是什麼那至於我們今天的議程裡頭提到的這個所謂的利益衝突迴避你們會有一個什麼樣的查核機制嗎 有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2092.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2110.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
報告委員我想在地中法裡面有特別規範就是要以公開公平方式來辦理補助這個部分不管他有沒有事先揭露都要按照這個原則來辦理那至少我們經濟部的部分一定都是以公開公平的這個補助辦法來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2113.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2136.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那當然立法裡面有規定就是說如果有相關人等事先要有一些揭露那之前當然也有很多的案件大家疏漏了這個部分但是自從113年監察院通函提醒大家要這樣那我們經濟部也做了就是事先就會提醒這些這些申辦人說你要 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2137.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2166.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
如果有的話你要做什麼那之後有的話都有所以你都會事先告知嘛你們都會做一些事先告知嘛那你知道現在其實在政治上面在台灣現在的整個政治環境上面很多時候其實接受監督啦或者是政府事先告知這些利益衝突迴避的事項都是必須的但是有一些都會被泛政治化會被抹黑會被亂扣帽子 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2168.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2188.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
這會不會對你們未來在審查上面又或者是說其實我們看到很多的新創的這些投資人新創的這些企業未來在申請政府的補助上面其實他們也會很擔心我在做這些政府的投資補助申請的時候隨隨便便就有可能被扣帽子 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2190.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2202.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那如果是這樣子的話未來你們怎麼樣去做補助未來怎麼樣去支持這些新創包括接下來我要請教的就是說你們在國發基金對於新創的投資上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2205.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2226.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
你們如何避免因為我們還是秉持著這個公開跟公平的方式辦理因為我們都有外部的審查委員這些外部審查委員是依據他的專業或者是對產業的幫助他來做評選不是我們自己來做決定所以他是完全是以公開公平的方式我要提醒就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2227.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2253.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
監督應該是要本於事實拒絕政治抹黑但是當有這些政治抹黑進入的時候不管是被補助的這一方或者是你們在做資格審查的補助的政府單位其實你們都應該義正言辭出來反駁出來駁斥不能任由人家抹黑 不能任由人家扣帽子不能任由人家栽贓 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2255.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2266.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
政府好像軟趴趴的跟我們麻吉一樣沒有 我剛才特別提到現在的政治抹黑很嚴重公開公平的方式現在的政體不好很嚴重他根本沒有在問事實 沒有在看事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2270.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2299.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
一坨大便往你的身上一抹你若不義正言辭的反駁就抹在你身上擦不掉啦這個是我要提醒你們行政單位好來接下來我要討論的是這個國發基金這可能是那個主委您做的就好了您做的就好了沒關係沒關係你比較沒方便你坐著就好那個是不是可以拿一個麥克風給主委好不好那部長您就可以先請回座 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2303.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2328.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
主委我要請教一下剛剛我們談到了政府的投資政府的補助其實在很多的報告裡面我們現在看到政府對於AI對半導體對無人機對於淨零碳排等這些戰略的產業其實我們都開始在做大幅的這些投資依據你們的報告你們寫你們已經投資500多家的企業投資金額高達216億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2332.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2359.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
這看起來好像很多欸500多家投資200多億但你給他除一除平均起來一家也沒多少錢欸你覺得這個金額是有很多嗎那你說當然都帶動民間投資896億我不知道你這個是怎麼計算出來的啦那我要請教就是說政府在對於這一些重要的戰略產業的投資上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2360.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2370.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我的想法是 他不應該是語錄均沾 不是齊頭式的投資 齊頭式的平等你五百幾間 一間就補足一個 投資一個五千萬這樣看起來 那有什麼意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2377.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2395.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
在這邊跟委員報告就是說我們那個股發基金這個部分委員剛剛提到應該是比較屬於主題是百億投資這個部分那這個部分當然就是說因為是散在各部會那我們匡列一個錢給他那每一個部會有每一個部會執行的一個步驟以及補助的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2395.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2411.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那我們也觀察到委員剛剛提到一些方式就有點像是很平均可是大家好像都沒有起來這樣子所以我們後來才會去成立一個投資平台那我們這個投資平台基本上會每一季會有一個工作會議那我們每半年會開一次管理委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2412.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2437.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
你的投資平台我當然知道我現在講的就是說其實啊你們應該對於類似這樣不管是所謂的AI的投資或者是文化事業影視音的這些投資我都覺得可能你們都很怕在立法院被罵啦這個好像又就是跟今天的主題就是什麼又圖利誰啦所以其實你們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2438.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2459.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
眼光跟那個目標集聚其實都縮得很小我簡單講你的那個影視投資文化部的文策院雖然有百億的基金但是他的投資只要超過五千萬以上都還要再送國發基金審核我如果要拍一部氣勢磅礴的大片你就只有投資個幾百萬幾千萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2465.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2494.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
你那個技術要怎麼做得出來你整個文化的影視音的投資怎麼會出得來那相對來講嘛我講到AI講到無人機產業講到靜雲太白或者是講到很多的新創當然不是每一個新創都適合讓你們去投資一億兩億但是你的這個所謂的投資平台如果不能把眼界放寬放遠其實你感覺就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2496.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2517.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
蜻蜓點水點一下點一下點了就走點了就走你根本看不出一個長遠的這種政策規劃或者是長遠的投資規劃在這邊跟委員報告就是說有關那個文化部那個執行白衣這部分的話其實我們是沒有設那個上限就是五千萬也不用到那個管理委員會來這邊報告我們現在目前是沒有這樣一個限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2518.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2543.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
要啦 可是你們不知道 因為沒有人敢投資五千萬以上啊所以終於還沒有送到你們這裡來報告啊因為我們也沒有 但可能我們這個在跟國安部溝通我現在沒有講個案啦 我現在談的就是說我們未來國發基金對於這一些新創前瞻的各式各樣的投資我覺得應該是眼界要放更遠一點因為我們就直投這個部分 我們也沒有金額的限制啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2543.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2554.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
好 那至於今天主席排定的這個議程我想所謂的什麼利益衝突迴避當然我大概也知道主席排這個議程的用意是什麼啦但我覺得很多時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2557.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2583.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
事實的依據是什麼很重要行政部門你在對於這些投資補助審查你們都有一定的程序所以你們對於被抹黑被指控被扣帽子其實都應該是要更義正嚴實的去反駁接受國會監督是一件事情但是拒絕政治抹黑又是更重要的一件事情這個也請兩位能夠堅持自己的立場謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2587.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2590.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
好我們謝謝邱穎委員接下來我們請再一個邱次偉委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2604.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2631.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
好 來 謝謝主席請經濟部公部長跟...請經濟部公部長不是 跟國安會業主委休息一下不是叫你休息啦不是叫你...叫你休息啦不是 我叫你休息 不是叫你出台啦我叫我休息你沒聽我請經濟部公部長跟國安會業主委休息一下休息來 請那個... |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2633.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2658.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
商劃署蘇署長中企署今天是李副署長產發署舊署長然後國安基金會執行秘書好 請相關部門署長因為長期在經濟委員會那商發署跟中央企業署跟產發署對產業的發展非常重要如果沒有相關在經費上國家資源的挹注跟協助很多產業變成無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2660.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2684.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
比方說扣掉要轉型你沒有相關的計畫沒有相關政府的資金的補助跟協助說實在以憑他們自己的資金很難去做適度的轉型或者開拓海外市場所以我對這個三方組跟中小企業組對以南部為主的中小企業非常重要所以你們這些相關的補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2686.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2714.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
從我當立委現在已經第十幾年了我基本上要進行委員會所以補助案都對這產業的發展至關重要我也希望你們多編一些預算來協助產業的發展那你補助當然有相關的機制有相關的規定對不對這個規定跟制度因為是公務部門一定非常嚴謹一定要合法合規跟要合情合理我相信今天有相關補助的 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2715.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
2724.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
對產業發展至關重要的三發署署長在您主政之下三發署對各項補助是不是都符合合情合法合規 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
2727.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
2751.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
剛委員說明我們所有的那個只要是補助方案最少會公開的公告去增案時間大概會一到兩個月一定會一個月以上所以一定是要合法合規合計合理這裡沒有問題那同樣的中小企業署也是如此一定要合法合規合計合理裁判署也是如此因為這個預算三個單位加起來我想有好幾百億 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
2753.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
2764.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
對產業界補助啦 對產業補助沒有你們這樣補助啊 很多產業轉型真的是很困難啦好 那這個國安基金執密是 委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
2766.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
2789.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
你們國際經濟有很多的投資類別一般的企業還有新創還有八大主要的產業最近加入運動部每一個產業大概100億所以這個當然有相關的審查機制那對你們相關目前的在審查的機制法律部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
2791.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
2816.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
你有沒有信心?有,絕對有信心絕對經濟起改變對不對?對,絕對我也相信,不管是經濟部或國發會在做對中小企業或者是新創產業相關的協助,這個利益良善而且我覺得你們知情面你們不是一般私人企業你們是公務部門,公務部門要接受相關的這個審計單位的督導也要相關經過立法院的這個監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
2818.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
2838.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
所以最基本的條件要合法合規合情合理基本上本席對經濟部跟國發基金我是有信心的謝謝 謝謝委員好 先請為我們留下這個邱卓偉邱署長也留下那個商劃署這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
2839.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
2865.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
三發署那個署長 署長 這個有關於扣建扣建傳統產業 你也知道我選區都是扣建的重要生產基地 不管從鹿竹 從岡山那一橋這個 一區這個就是我們的S郎帶 對不對所以傳統產業跟高科技產業是並存的 但是會形成一個強烈的對比 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
2866.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
2894.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我們所有的這個鎂光燈的焦點或者世界的所有的焦點都集中在這個半導體的S狼帶所以從這個砂輪一直到這個男子產業園區基本上變成全世界最重要的這個IC或者半導體的相關的設計跟製造中心但旁邊我們有很多產業園區產業園區就是這個我說的扣件是鋼鐵等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
2896.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
2921.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
這些怎麼樣讓他更加值化讓他脫離這個紅海市場能夠有更多的這個競爭力啊我覺得你們有做但是還做的還不夠我想請教一下邱署長你們針對這個扣件輔導他身形轉型加值化很久了會不會要跟這個高科技的這些這個AI相結合這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
2923.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
2932.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
我想聽一下您的意見還有哪些相對好的做法讓我們金屬擴建業能夠有信心 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
2933.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
2939.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
好 謝謝張偉的這個詢問我想經濟部對這個扣建業可以說算是最重視的一個產業之一的光部長為了這個扣建業舉辦了好幾場的專業的座談會來協助解決他們的問題那當然他受到一點影響是因為那個美國232關稅的關係可是現在我們也爭取到了如果可以適用汽車的扣建15%如果是航太的扣建的話是免232關稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
2962.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
2986.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
所以我們現在的這個輔導重點的話就是希望他能夠朝向比較高質化的方向來發展高質化這兩個領域嘛對這兩個領域航太跟汽車還有其他的呢那另外的話就是剛剛委員有關心的就是說協助他去做一些AI的轉型低碳的轉型那我們經過盤點目前已經有協助119家的扣件業者朝這方面去轉型所以我們特別成立了一個扣件的一個專業的輔導團 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
2988.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3012.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
就是我們現在是篩選扣件的專家特別是像金屬中心或者金費的挹注但是我覺得你們要思考怎麼用稅負的方式結合財政部在負稅上面有一些減免讓他們能夠成本降低這可能要請鞏部長再跟財政部做一些協調對傳統產業目前經營比較困難的產業能夠在稅務上面可以更多的優待 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3018.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3039.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
署長 那個前幾天我討論到這個這個RSU啊是RSU這媒體有很大的偏火的報導我也對這個RSU外國用RCU的制度來搶台灣的高科技人才這已經現在進行一次如果我們還跟不上時代我們還是用RSA會綁住 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3041.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3067.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
會變成是誘因不夠大家都跑到這個外商企業所以我們好不容易培育出來的這個高科技人才很容易因為制度的落後然後被挖角對這種情況這個署長你們有什麼想法先跟委員說明如果現在RSA可以還是讓那個企業比較好運用我們會先處理但是我們同步也在研議就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3068.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3087.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
RSU在公司法裡面是不是有可以需要修法嗎我們不排除啦但是這個還需要再評估一下產業界高科技業有很大的這個呼籲也有很大的這個跟政府部門有相關的建議所以我想媒體或者是產業界都有這種呼籲應該啊經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3090.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3113.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
就是由您主任來跟這個相關的金管會來做一些討論能不能在現階段不用修法的情形之下我們導入這個RSU的制度讓他能夠在這個人才的競爭上立於這個平等的地位是 那個委員我們其實也在想說如果韓式可以去解釋的話其實是可以不用動到修法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3114.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3122.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
所以這個部分大概什麼時候可以完成呢我們盡快會處理那委員是不是給我們兩個月的時間 三個月好 謝謝時間總是不夠用 但是作為召委要以伸縮者時間到就應該要聽諮詢這是對委員會的尊重 也是對下一位諮詢委員的一個尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3144.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3159.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
希望我的這個示範能夠得到共鳴啦好我們謝謝邱思惠委員接下來我們請陳廷輝委員質詢謝謝張老闆我們請經濟部長請經濟部工部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3173.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3189.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
三位院長部長我想先利用時間讓你了解一下其實我們台南626的這個淹水說真的就是您看到的這個山野溪的暴漲幾乎就是已經到了堤防邊了 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3190.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3214.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
所以當時候我們當每一次如果它是滿潮的時候我們都是用所謂的水閘門關起來然後水閘門關起來之後用內水要抽到外水可是因為它的體防已經不夠了根本不敢再抽了 抽了它就會液體了 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3215.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3241.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
所以我是要報告部長因為我們7月6號我有邀您去現場也就是針對這個部分可能要拜託你們就是說我們如何用能夠協助我們地方的一個處理方式因為這個山野溪在三年前好不容易三年前幾乎只要仁德東區 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3244.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3262.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
三爺溪還沒整治好的時候我說真的大概SNG車每次下雨就會在那邊看淹水的狀況可是三年來沒有發生就是因為三爺溪的整治完成所以呢大家也嚇一跳怎麼會 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3264.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3290.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
三年而已我們的三爺溪的堤防就不夠用了因為極端氣候所以我們現在當天我跟黃偉哲市長有直接到現場去看整個的水位那個水位很可怕還好當時候有雨停了我們在猜只要再半個小時絕對全部一堤 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3291.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3317.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
所以這個部分是緊急的一定要加高體防一定要加高體防沒有加高你變成沒有人敢用抽水機把內水抽到外水如果沒有做抽水的動作就像我們這一次26號一樣大家就在那邊看著水一直往上漲然後束手無策 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3321.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3347.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
所以部長我們7月6號會去針對山野溪會做一個檢討三年而已表示現在的極端氣候已經讓我們原本所謂我們的防洪位25年因為我們南部都是25年大家認為南部可能下雨沒有那麼的 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3348.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3376.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
雨量過多所以我們防洪二十五年可是防洪二十五年已經不夠了用三年稀釋讓大家最最驚慌的地方才三年原本大家認為哇 我可以安心三年就變成這樣而且它影響的是仁德跟東區它的範圍很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3377.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3399.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
所以部長 我想應該署長都有跟你報告啦所以我們7月6號要到現場會刊的時候去召開會議 就是針對6月26號我有請水利局做報告那還有另外一個部分也要感謝你就是說我們對老百姓 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3402.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3408.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
在去年丹納斯之後的8月份的那一次的颱風那一次的雨量是非常恐怖的我們緊急到現場然後我們在所有的淹水的點我們陸續繞了好幾圈我們去找尋問題因為我一直在講 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3429.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3455.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
如果我們的排水沒有把關鍵把它做好我們花再多錢 人民無感所以我們那一次在去年的時候我們整個從上游到下游去看到底發生什麼樣的狀況因為下游你沒有強制排出它就是沒用 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3456.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3484.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
所以謝謝從去年我不斷的要求然後在今年我也拜託我們經濟部還有水利署這是我十八年做禮物的地方因為裡面的白水我們很多安南區的白水都蓋很多就存在裡面的白水所以我向我們經濟部拜託向我們水利署拜託謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3487.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3502.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
我們五大改善工程首波因為這是第一階段而已高也是不高的啦但是不可能一次到位因為我們有分階段在執行所以首波9億 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3505.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3531.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
中央的經費要解決六塊了排稅五大改善工程有我們的護岸治理護岸治理很重要就像我們三個月可以一樣護岸護岸是關鍵護岸如果不夠管你沒辦法來水抽多水如果多水太管的時候就完全大家束手無策再來就是我們的抽水站 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3532.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3558.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
出水站工程很重要在下游因為你下游沒出路 頂游沒摘掉粗粒所以下游很重要還有我們在整個宜安路路段 宜安段的左岸改建還有提後排水的改善工程還有相關所有這個從上游的安定 因為安定到安南區是比較繁忙啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3559.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3574.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
所以安定是我們的定由,是立法會的定由,所以對定由夠重責,夠會有所以我們在去年整個繞了好幾圈,聊著聊著 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3575.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3593.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我們知道我們會被民眾責罵我們不怕因為你沒有這個樣子你找不到找不到原因所以我們當時候找了最主要的五大原因所以謝謝我們首波9億已經核准了 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3595.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3611.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
所以我要拜託 九億這個是硬撐硬撐的啦 我知道我們的房子還沒過啦是硬撐硬撐的 因為不可以啦九億我說真的 你們知道我剛才知道這個多大所以這只是規劃設計費而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3616.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3635.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
可是 起碼我們在水路上捏繩 捏繩 捏繩 還有接觸這個高野所以我拜託預算要趕快過預算要趕快過 我們才有看到第二期的預算因為我們水的體力 不能浪費 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3636.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3663.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
一定要接續不能說今天來了好 下一次不知道在哪裡所以部長我相信這個還有必須要跟中央說的我們之前在半門將軍我也去現場看我五六點就去選了這個北門將軍做抽水站很有效果非常有效果這就是我講的關鍵 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3668.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3688.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
關鍵治理我們有了關鍵治理 人民就會有感所以我們在整個環境裡面希望我們台南要把所有 我們7月6號我會拜託我們水利局把關鍵那個關鍵 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3691.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3703.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
找出來我們一定要優先來做那人民才會覺得說我們中央開車的汽水是有效的所以部長你認為呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3705.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3732.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
好 謝謝啊那個六塊樓這個部分我們剛剛委員講預算已經在預算的爭取委員預算爭取之下我們已經合訂了嘛那317的部分剛剛委員有提議我們怎麼樣跟市政府來共同的合作雖然它是一個縣市館合穿但是我想中央也是責無旁貸怎麼樣跟地方共同來做加強整治初步當然它下游已經差不多OK了但是我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3733.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3754.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
再怎麼樣把他這個抗這個下雨的這個極端氣候對 極端氣候把那個提案再加高那我想我們那天可以做充分的討論你知道三葉溪喔三葉溪真的是當時候因為淹水所以小英總統他特地下去他用一次核准的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3754.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3778.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
報告委員 原委員很關心這3月7日6塊了 這些討論委員說得很清楚我們會按照委員的意見跟市政府合作啦 我認為市政府去灌3月7日這些東西 總算再加高一點6塊了把最後的旅路趕快把它完成 應該會有大幅改善我們願意來跟市政府一起來努力 謝謝要拜託 而且我有請他提出幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
3780.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
3804.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
關鍵就是說在我們很多治水區塊那個就差那最後一里路我有拜託說你針對那個最後一里路人民馬上就會感受到的所以你看嘛這一次在去年三文溪白水南枯架岸邊這個地方就沒有叫買啊為什麼因為他的最後一里路最後一里路完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
3805.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
3820.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
所以呢他就沒有被罵了 否則以前我們最後的理路沒完成每次前面還是會淹水所以我覺得那個關鍵的建設很重要我們一起加油再拜託 謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請洪義祥召委請做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
3837.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
3854.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
好 謝謝主席我請這個國發會還有三發署跟中企署謝謝好 請三位可以可以可以您坐著就好坐著坐著 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
3856.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
3876.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
好我想會排這個質詢是因為我們經濟部管了很多東西不管當然還包含產發那基本上來講產發不用上台沒關係基本上來講包含很多的補助國發的話基本上很多的投資甚至包括我們那時候省的天使基金等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
3877.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
3895.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那會有這個問題的發生我覺得跟一些委員講的什麼個案政治我覺得一點關係都沒有因為主要我長期輔導新創很多年那新創事業有一堆人來排 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
3896.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
3913.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
跟我檢舉那我當然也不能給你們檢舉信函那我是說不太可能啊我們在審查的時候基本上都是剛剛兩位不管相關部會首長講都是合法合規嘛然後符合利益關係的這個利沖法的所有的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
3915.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
3936.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那只是我們去把這個資料找出來之後發現他就是沒有完全的遵守這個利益衝突的法案所以導致有些新創事業覺得說我能力很強但是我可能社會資本關係不夠所以他覺得有點 unfair 不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
3938.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
3955.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我看了一下當然這些公司的能量都很夠但是所獲得的申請補助或者是沒有通過補助當然這有很多其他因素我們就覺得這是制度上的問題就這個樣子我們在5月26號然後在6月9號、6月22號分別黨團開過記者會然後來找這樣子的一個事情這個事情是就很明顯 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
3967.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
3987.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
好 這我就不再贅述那主要的話就是我那時候也覺得還蠻巧的就是整個 如果按照時間走來看的話蘇小純這樣子她是跨市智能的董事 而且是第二大股然後呢 威如科技的長管的服務平台AK Swap 它是執行長 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
3989.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4018.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
所以如果你把它跟立衝法的規範弄起來的話也就是你的關係人比如說你是這個機關首長你是各級民意代表然後呢你是在二清等以內的這個清楚按照我們這個立衝法的規定第二條的規定還有第三條這個關係人公職人員關係人的規範它在在的都是具體而成立的 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4019.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4031.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那只是很湊巧的就是說在2021年他加入擔任礦事智能擔任董事那之後國發基金的天使投資385補助這樣一路下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4032.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4056.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
這些我不能說你違法因為按照我們立法規定就是我的關係人有很厲害的親屬二親等以內家屬這一種所謂的公開公正公平的招標這個都是可以參與的你不能因為說我的爸爸媽媽姐姐妹妹兄弟是擔任民意代表機關首長我就不能參與政府的這個公共補助平台這一點沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4058.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4072.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
這一點沒有問題但是有問題的地方呢絕對也不是說你的這個他的案子好或不好 案子好或不好也不是你們認定嘛也就是我們審查委員的機制去認定但要這個比較嚴重的問題的話就是根據我們律沖法的這個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4080.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4105.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
主要是在第14條這裡因為它是屬於符合剛剛的要件所以在第三集這邊基於法定身份來申請這個沒有問題但是呢也就是我們在第四項後面列的你在前項但書第一款至第三款補助交易行為前應主動申請投標文件內據實表明其身份關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4107.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4125.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
好像我在擔任各個審查委員包含這個以前擔任國發機械電子我們每一個案件都要審查委員都要寫有沒有利益迴避對不對有沒有關係利益要衝突有我們就退出這樣的審查可是呢這個東西我想要問的就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4126.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4143.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
一個一個來好了 就是這個是一定要填的喔甚至你在補助交易成立之後 該機關要連同其身份公司主動公開支喔所以我想問的是第一個國發基金這邊喔 在當時 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4145.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4172.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
礦事智能第二大股東董事是舒喬說他有沒有告訴我們這些審查他有沒有填這個利益迴避關係表在這邊跟委員報告我們不會針對個案那我們的原則是剛剛委員也有不是因為我有請你們回覆給我說有沒有填他有沒有填yes or no第一個還是回到就是說利沖法剛剛委員也有提第14條的那幾項裡面沒有包括投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4172.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4191.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
所以我們認為有有有沒有沒有你的報告寫的委員你可以回去再看一下那個法條那個只有說一般補助承攬採購等我就知道你會這樣子說對所以就我們來講的話法務部廉政署來在不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4193.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4216.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
110年3月29號的規定而且在你的報告也寫了你的投資是要受到公共人員利益關係迴避法的適用他是投資不是補助所以是適用的我記得我們報告是沒有把投資放進去這是適用的 原證署你的示函110年3月29號連立至第1100501810號函 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4225.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4235.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
因為國發基金的投資他們可能每一個機關有他們自己本身的政策的一個目的跟一個相關的法令的遵循所以對於說有關國發基金的投資是不是屬於這個立法的規範的部分讓我們尊重他們相關機關的一個認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4254.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4279.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
你們剛剛這個都是你們連戰署發給各機關的函這是你最後再好好思考回答一下因為你剛剛的報告有講你們的投資國發會的報告也是適用沒有我們那個報告裡面投資是不會在不會放在那一個利沖法第14條裡面所以只要投資都不用放利沖法 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4280.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4305.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
因為它上面沒有寫啊它只有一般的補助承攬跟採購啊那你就是違反廉政署的含釋解釋請廉政署再回去跟你好好解釋一下這是他們的含釋我有去問廉政署我現在講的都不是個案你們都不要跟我扯到個案我現在講的是因為很多人會投資嘛新創事業會去受天使基金的投資所以這些東西都要揭露的 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4306.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4322.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
你要讓我們這個審查委員知道我們審查委員審案子是要揭露利益關係的啊對不對我要簽的啊要有那個表的那個委員這一邊再跟你釐清一下就是說這個你再給我報因為你們的現在回函我那時候請你們回都沒有回給我啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4323.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4348.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
因為我5月26號請你是不是依法事前就這樣你現在有沒有回覆我啊因為這一個我們有去諮詢律師啦律師說這個我們有跟有跟那個你先告訴我你有沒有回你有沒有回給我沒有嘛沒有啊我們我們在沒有就是沒有現在沒有三發數字到今天早上我剛才拿到密件封 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4352.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4380.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
5月份拿到密件封好不好 廉政署回去再把一些函事再寄給他們 謝謝好 再來回到剛剛這裡喔所以我要的問題都不是個案喔各位都不要跟我講個案我現在不跟你講個案因為就是很多這個東西我們都要遵守一致的規矩那同樣的道理喔你在這一個地方來講的話三發署我剛剛看到你們密件給我的他有沒有填因為你們有那個表格在礦勢智能那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4382.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4401.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
跟委員報告齁確實在我們立衝法規定之後有些廠商其實是會可能會忘記所以我們在113年6月的時候有那個部裡面這邊齁大概有含知道各行政機關有公告說要做填寫所以他如果沒有填你也不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4403.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4416.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我們一般審查是審查會看他的負責人跟計劃執行人員可是那個利害關係的表格是在你們的附件申請裡頭是要通知申請人他要填的啊那他有沒有填 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4419.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4437.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
剛剛跟委員報告是說我們事實上是在很多的廠商會忘記所以我們有在我們後來113年之後的有在提醒就是應該要填的就是每一個案子不是只有這個案子每一個案子都應該要告訴這些申請人是要填的 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4438.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4461.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
當然像我們這些投資審查委也都是要填嘛 對不對如果這個東西是有符合利害關係我要迴避的甚至我就不審這一個案子不參與的所以要填的好 為什麼 這規定的這在立法立法規定它可能漏填或幹嘛我也知道你們會用這個理由但是你要補公開就是你要補證公開 不然你會違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4462.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4481.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
違法的話就是第一個 申請者的責任他要事前揭露他在申請補助交易等等要在文件內據實表明身份沙發水真的是補助嘛再來機關的責任補助交易行為成立後30天內要連同身份關係要上網主動公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4483.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4512.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
你如果沒有揭露或未公開的話廉政署要嘛如果你是申請者的責任就處罰申請人要嘛如果你是機關沒有公開就處罰你機關五萬到十萬並得按次處罰所以所以公務人員要依法行政我是在保護各位喔因為法就寫在這邊制度就寫在這邊我們就是希望照每一個案件都是這樣子來做遵守我覺得這個是對新創者對 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4513.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4538.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
要投資申請補助的人 他是公平的我也覺得不認同天使基金 國發電的不受利益天愛共修法的規定喔這個我事後會再跟你們好好的討教這完全是你們覺得不對喔因為 廉政署的回函不是這樣子喔好 再來所以呢 你這一個東西呢你們也回給我說建議由法務部確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4540.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4560.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
因為你也不知道嘛那我就請法務部確認這樣子的案子那中企署也是啊中企署的話就是這個微如科技的話就是一樣每一個案子都要有再來你們共同的缺失是這個就是你要公開揭露公開揭露的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4563.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4569.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
請問經濟部有沒有這個公職人員關係人補助交易等等身份關係公開查詢平台經濟部有沒有國發會有幫你查過了 沒有然後呢經濟部呢報告委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4587.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4598.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我們是每一個案子都有公開平台但是有沒有專區這個我要確認我是不是馬上確認以後跟您報告好 我幫你查過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4599.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4625.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
有些有 有些沒有那沒有的話就會連到監察院這一個網站就是在監察院那我有去把它查了一下因為你們都沒有國發會尤其沒有總共我去幫你們查了4年來7508件全國機關全部包含中央地方政府我查4年國發會公開的只有一件游建華前副執委子女依法公開關係法公開經濟撲殺法署公開零件 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4630.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4631.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
這這 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4632.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4660.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
可能是真的沒有可能是真的沒有但是因為你們我剛剛講法寫在那邊但是你們沒有照制度執行比如說那個人應該要填的要告知這些審查委員的比如說這個某某人來申請的時候他是有具備什麼樣的利害關係的你這些都要讓他們填要提醒他們他如果沒有提醒那就是你們失職事後還要公開公開要讓他可以查得到的所以監察院才有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4661.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4677.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
可是你們就沒有讓他上上去我不相信很少那我也去查了我們很多立委很多地方政府的機關上都有 都有填像吳興隆我們本黨的前立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4679.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4701.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
他弟弟因為什麼 關西企業承接台灣電力公司 他是星光保全負責 依法揭露甚至我們的楊瓊英委員 因為有些這個 他是昭陽科技大學的董事會的董事 這都有揭露還有很多委員都有揭露 委員都很乖耶林佩祥 賴世寶 對不對 他是擔任這個管理協會的理事 都有揭露 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4703.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4711.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
可是為什麼很多案子是沒有揭露的這就是讓我匪夷所思然後地方政府揭露的還比中央部會多這就是法庭在那個地方你制度要去做絕對不是個案也絕對不是政治什麼追殺什麼案件抹黑沒有我現在全部都跟你講事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4726.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4733.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我也不選舉 我也不幹嘛 我就是等著創新事業的投資發展你們兩個機關經濟部跟國發會這是很大的投資項目的金額跟賭注那 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4740.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4765.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
所有的申請流程 所有的審核流程我大概我都清楚那我想我們在審查的時候都已經是很遵照規定對不對按照你們這些承辦單位給我們要填的甚至我們知道這些人是跟誰是有利害關係的我們會列入考慮但他不是我們確定他獲選或不獲選的依據獲選或不獲選的依據看這個案子的功能優異性跟未來性 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4766.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4784.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
但是但是他一定要公開揭露事後機關要揭露所以我的要求很單純就是這些如果廠商沒有依法揭露這個按照立法第18條第3項要處罰5到50萬如果你們再不去做就是處罰機關廉政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4789.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4814.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
要確實去做一下確實做所以第一個我是讓廉政署好好進入徹查有沒有哪些該公開而未公開的這個究責是機關還是申請人申請人我們可以請他再補公開因為我覺得這個事情是要揭露的第二個我也要求國發會跟經濟部三個月內完成近五年所有的交易補助跟投資案件的關係人清查 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4815.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
4826.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
天使基金我都有寫利害關係法的迴避利益衝突我們都要填審查文要填申請人不用填這也是匪夷所思 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
4828.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
4852.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
我現在都不是在討論個案記得很多新創事業一直跟我complain因為我的社會資本的連結性不夠以致於我可能申請不到案件的補助或投資有失公平我們要消弭這種不公平的現象就這樣子而已其他一點關係都沒有我希望將來各位就依法行事吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
4853.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
4876.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
制度都有 法條都有 就是執行率的問題該揭露的就揭露國化會該網站 確診網站 經濟部也是沒有的話 你那個連結就擺到這個監察院的這個公職員關係平台 你就不用自己建也行那申請的時候 確實要求他們要填寫有的話就填寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
4877.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
4885.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
沒有也是在表格上填555555要把這個文件打給我們一下保護各位公務人員以上 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
4907.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
4925.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
好 接下來我們請楊瓊英委員質詢好 謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請部長跟國發會主委部長 主委讓他坐著對 坐著 坐著 OK 那法務部法務部 謝謝楊委員好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
4926.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
4943.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
部長今天主席安排了補助審查機制與投資案的一個審查程序中之利益衝突迴避規範檢討的一個詢答本席是站在協助國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
4944.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
4969.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
把關以及守護納稅人的權益的一個角度我們來提出了一個目前正處於一個重大財務與金這個營運風險集在各部會共同來釐清的一個關鍵案個案也就是在民國109年7月份的時候呢國發會呢直接投資了世豐電力股份有限公司那你當時是從109年5月份到 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
4972.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
4974.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
113年的5月份你是擔任國發會的主委那當時參與了世豐的電力的這個現金這個增資的這個部分那當時我們投下的呢也就是5.52億 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
4988.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
4993.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
持股的比例呢是20%當時你是以國防會主委那現在你是經濟部部長那這個面對於牽扯到整個綠能產業的發展還有地方權益以及國家資產保全的一個指標案件那我們更應該要以更嚴謹以及中性的這個標準來檢視是否存在著 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5013.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5030.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
制度性的風險以及利益衝突的一個漏洞所以因此本席要首先請教部長您在當時擔任主委的任內你參與了這個投資案那現在正面臨的資產保全的重大 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5031.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5051.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
考驗 那經濟部跟國防會呢國防會現在的主委坐在後面 你們兩位是不是已經做好了合規與這個避險的一個準備因為本期必須要善意的提醒部長根據地方發展的大四季裡頭 須豐在1996年通過了環評之後 他長期面臨到原住民部落的雨環 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5058.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5060.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
這個環團的一個程序抗爭傳送了這個訴訟那外界是高度的在看在質疑那為什麼會在黑歷史傳送這個傳送多年的這個案件當中呢在2019年 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5076.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5098.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
由雙威集團來收購之後呢那隔年我們的國防會呢火速的點頭來做評估而且進場投資所以就在整個審查機制的獨立性跟利益衝突的迴避上是不是已經完整的具備了客觀的社會說服力請教部長因為這個案子啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5102.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5125.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
它第一個它是個案第二個它是現金增資案理論上它是不會上到那個管理會國發基金管理會我主持的會議裡面那所以說這個案子就是等於是在全職辦理在國發基金裡面它就合調了所以本席就知道你一定會這麼回答所以我要把這個問題提出來給你接下來本席要請問的 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5128.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5152.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
有關於國家整個資產是不是面臨的一個減損的一個重大財務危機重大財務危機那麼根據最新的財務揭露 世豐它的實收的資本額是23億國防會我們當時投資的是5.52億但是現在傳出該公司的淨值只剩下5億 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5154.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5171.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那如果按照20%的比例來計算 我們目前帳面的價值可能只剩下1億那更令人擔憂的是 在潛在的一個退場機制去年7月份的時候 石墨電力通過了授權 董事會來辦理32.8億的融資 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5177.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5194.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
並進行工程的發包但是到今年為止我們看到外界與市場的觀察顯現出現場的工程幾乎是停滯當中更反常的是他公司的人員由原先居文由原先的25人現在只剩下5人在這樣的一個情況之下一間資本額23億 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5202.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5223.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
進行大額的一個融資的開發公司如果營業人員精簡到陳如外界所說的精簡到只剩下5人23億資本額的公司如果精簡到只剩下5個員工那請問這在公司的治理跟工程的履約上是常態嗎是常態嗎還是一個警訊 請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5228.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5236.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
現在的營運狀況我已經不了解我已經離開這個國發會好 國發會主委請你回答國發會主委執密來說明一下國發基金的執密是執密先嗎還是你先回答吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5245.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5257.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
就委員的問題可能有一個面向就是說譬如說像我們以往的投資譬如說像藥滑藥之前虧損很大第一個就是說投資這個部分其實在市場上面會有漲跌但我們會持續的觀察不會說 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5265.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5277.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
某一陣子下來之後我們就趕快出清那個股票或儲本他不會我們不會這樣做我們會看比較長期的請教目前市場的訊息您了解嗎市場訊息我是不是可以請好 知名請說說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5279.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5306.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
是跟委員報告世豐電力的這一個案子目前確實碰到一些困境因為他投資是有賺有賠那他真正要獲利一定是小水利發電開始發電了賣電力出來才能夠這個開始有這個營收進來那他的過程當中跟原住民的這個協調環評的這個非常清楚就針對剛剛本席所提問的是不是目前有這樣的現象因為市場都一直在傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5308.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5327.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
因為我們是20%我們是20%的這股權我們持續在關注剛剛委員關切的像公司治理舉個例子來講最近深威能源碰到了這個因為深威入主之後本來也想說有這個資金可以來持續開發但是後來深威又碰到一些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5328.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5345.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
所以現在變成說工程上面會有一部分的延宕是在這一邊那經營層確實有碰到一些這樣的問題就是公司治理這個部分我們持續在所以你了解這個是屬實這個現象目前目前好接下來我要請問綠能市場我們傳出的這些訊息那更有成員身為的董事會的成員據傳又有說對外尋找買家 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5355.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5373.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
準備要出脫這個股權甚至可能要進行清算有沒有這回事啊這是不是一個風險的警訊跟委員報告就是說以常態性來講一個企業在發展的過程當中你知道目前有沒有這個現象因為市場一直在謠傳我們也不希望讓社會來恐慌我們是一個持股20%國家的單位到底有沒有這回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5380.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5396.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
是 我跟委員報告現在最大股東是生威能源他碰到財務上面的問題確實有在尋找各種不同的資金進駐至於進駐的比例是多少會不會變成更大的股東這個是動態性的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5398.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5427.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
動態性的發展所以你們知道確實是有這個問題因為國發會呢我們主要是希望這些錢都是人民的納稅錢是公共的資金我們深怕會不會面臨到球場無門的這個階段投資石沉大海因為國發會的基金在投資是最重要的是希望讓我們的產業能夠來發展能夠來發展那既然子敏剛才說了本席剛剛所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5427.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5450.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
社會 市場 產業界所提出的這些面向確實是有在確實是有的情況之下我們希望國發會的投資是為了促進產業創新它絕對是不能在缺乏監督的風險之下淪為特定財團的一個套現的一個擔保工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5450.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5464.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
是 這個我們態度是一致的好 所以在這樣的情況之下我相信這個問題除了財務跟治理風險它包括了社會責任跟治安的安全因為我們要檢視在113年的4月份裡頭在豐平溪工作的當中無姓的測量員發生了這個公安事件也經過了勞動部那麼也開出了法單也公布了負責任的姓名這一次一個牽扯到地方諮商 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5479.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5485.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
同意的一個爭議以及發生重大公安那今天包括的內部剛剛你也承認了他們內部異常的從25個人是不是屬實到5人以及所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5496.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5512.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
這個數字我們大額的增額的時候那到底這些錢流向到哪裡工程的進度到底目前是如何這是社會非常期待看到真正的答案是什麼所以因此呢我本席必須要以 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5514.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5539.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
為人民把關的這個立場我要提出幾點請國發會跟這個法務部跟經濟部必須要提出這個資料出來也就是第一個啟動專案合規的一個審查經濟部跟國發部到底目前是否電力目前他的資產淨值他的大額融資的去向以及工程的進度究竟是如何必須要跨部會去 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5540.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5546.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
監視出來這第一個第二個評估資產保全的一個因應因為你也說過了都在找買家那準備如果是真的準備要出脫甚至變賣股權的這個風險訊號已經產生的時候那麼我們國防會你到底要怎麼樣去研擬你的資產保全的一個因應方案以防到時候我們求助無門那第三個也就是房屋鋪 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5569.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5592.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
在相關跨部會的當中相關的責任你必須要針對大額的一個這個預算融資的部分到底它去向是在哪裡那麼在違反常態這麼大的一個公司融資這麼多的金額為什麼人員反而是降低到個位數那這個整個在公司的一個治理 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5593.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5597.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
或許有人會害怕是不是會有掏空的這個現象以上這三點我相信財務風險評估跟資產保全的因應是我們國發會法務部以及經濟部必須要提出所以我們充分理性的討論那麼也知道這是一個訊息已經出來了那麼我們希望我們身為 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5618.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5643.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
身為20%的持股者而且我們派駐的人員更應當要充分的了解而不是剛剛部長所說的他沒有到我這裡說我偷偷不知道因為這些錢都是人民的納稅錢公共資產所以我希望在兩個禮拜內請將本席剛剛所提出的這三項的這個內容請提出說明可以嗎好加油好謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5647.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5673.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
好 謝謝楊卓英委 謝謝單位接下來我們請謝依鳳委員質詢好 謝謝主席 我想要請工部長跟能源署的吳署長工部長還有能源署署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5676.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5704.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
部長早安我想請教一下因為過去你是淨零辦公室的嘛的你以前在國發會的時候在國發會擔任主委的時候是有總和這個淨零政策的推動你是主要的秘書幕僚嘛那我現在也要問就是淨零部分的問題啊因為你現在在經濟部你是為經濟部長你是主要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5705.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5722.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這個可能在相關 執行機關對 執行的相關的部分那我想要請問就是現在的國科會所說的近鄰科技的500億的這樣子的一個方案那到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5723.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5750.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
在經濟部裡面相關的前瞻能源新能源還有前瞻的能源就是新核能還有低碳製程技術未來怎麼樣子確保不是在實驗室階段而是真的能夠來進入商業化的生產就是能夠直接生產呢這個部分你們已經在推動了吧 能源署署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5751.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5773.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
新核能的部分呢?新核能的部分沒有,因為現在應該是國研院他們有一個計畫在做國研院?對,是國研院那低碳呢?因為低碳的技術現在也有不同的發展了嗎?是不是?有,有要看TIL的成熟程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5774.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5786.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
到底國科會這個500億的這個就是有關於淨零減碳的這樣子的新科技喔那怎麼樣子你們經濟部到底負責哪一個部分產業還是國科會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5795.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5822.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
碳封存的部分碳封存的部分我們大概有一些實驗型的計畫在執行所以你們對於新核能這個部分還是在觀望是嗎新核能的部分的確還在觀察因為全世界現在它真正商轉的這個還沒有還沒有大部分都還是在前期階段那所以低碳的部分也僅在於過去的碳封存的部分是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5823.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5852.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
還有新的一些示範性的實驗比如說氫能的部分那現在已經開始有嘉青站在高雄氫能的部分我在日本也看過氫能的部分因為日本是推展氫能是他們一直強調就是要推展氫能還是持續研發各位應該也有有相關於那個海洋海流的這些這些示範性的實驗那這個都算是比較學術跟科技上的實驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5853.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
5875.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
去碳燃氫的部分呢?還有智慧能源管理的?我們就是有時候會加氫跟加氨那也是在實驗那那個部分呢?那個是有在試驗有在試驗嗎?那氫能?台電的部分因為現在當然還有地熱地熱現在用比較深層式的來挖地熱 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
5881.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
5909.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
那地熱的部分好像後來現在有一個具體的進展嗎?也沒有?同事有跟我講說在宜蘭的部分是圓山嘛深層是東山聽說它這個溫度還不錯啦現在初步的但是還要再多氣口井才可以確認說它可能的這個容量會有多少運產量會有多少所以目前的進展還沒有是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
5910.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
5932.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
一初步看起來是那個溫度是夠的但是運裝量有多少就還要再花一點時間另外當然也有我們很希望在這個陽明山國家公園那個部分也可以用一個定向井來探測因為看起來初步看起來那邊也不錯那不過這個部分是跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
5933.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
5947.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我們是跟中中研院就是中友跟中研院在合作那這個當然還有一些跟內政部一些法規上還要做一些釐清那因為就是說這個部分當然就提到了就是說當然中友還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
5948.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
5974.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
台電那當然還有我們對於國內的這些高碳排的產業還有石化業鋼鐵跟水泥那這個部分未來對於他們就是說這500億的預算裡面對於這些高耗能的這個產業那對於他們減碳的這樣子的一個就是說到底有沒有什麼具體的要求以及目標呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
5976.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6004.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我看國科會的部分我想還是要去看一下國科會他具體的方案但是至少經濟部的部分我們剛剛提到的一些示範性的一些實驗也正在進行當中那業者來講的話比如說他們現在開始有一些什麼對碳板廠或者是混燒的這個生殖能那我們已經有開始有一些實驗跟補助方案已經開始了那補助哪一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6008.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6026.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
我們現在的規劃是說說那個如果他混燒生成的部分是不是在那個FIT的那個部分要給他一定的這個就是投資報酬讓他鼓勵他去減碳還有就是說我們其實之前有一些藍莓鍋爐我慢慢把它改成天然氣那個也是其實也是一種減碳的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6027.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6043.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
就是把燃煤過路改天然氣就對了就是那些高耗能的產業什麼樣子把我們也鼓勵那個定值的燃料電池的一些發展燃料電池對好那我那個能源署長請回我再請那個產發署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6045.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6061.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那就是現在就是經濟部他作為一個產業輔導的機關那怎麼樣子就是在協助不管是我們中小企業也好怎麼樣把淨零這一塊不會變成說是大企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6065.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6085.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
因為也要讓小企業 因為我們那天去看了一個就是說我們看了彰化的一個智慧車輛零組件的一個相關的生產他們做得很辛苦耶 部長 那個中小企業做得很辛苦做一整天 說不定還沒有一個貨櫃然後你看他們整個貨櫃才150萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6088.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6114.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
才150萬喔那也比不上一台AI的伺服器喔所以他們的這個那個piece很多件那但是他們的這個就是毛利率很低呀那這個時候經濟部更要協助這些中小企業協助他們在這一波不管是淨零轉型也好他們在AI升級也好是不是能給予他們大部分的協助啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6114.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6137.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
有 包委員我們現在正在修正這個中小企業發展條例全面的改成中小企業的轉型升級發展條例那會把剛剛委員關心的比如說數位轉型跟AI升級還有淨零轉型的輔導措施甚至於可以在稅負上減免的部分也放到這個法案裡面去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6139 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6162.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
所以會有資金上的一些協助補助另外如果採買這些包括AI或者是近年的相關設備事實上也可以有投資底線如果有研發或者甚至於將來技術上的有一些協助我們盡量來做一些協助我想520的時候總統有講除了現在每年的預算大概有100多億之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6163.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6168.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
額外再增加了八年一千億來協助中小微它的轉型升級 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6170.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6193.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
不好意思還有一點就是說可能部長我不知道你曉不曉得那天那個邱署長有去因為中小企業的這個AI轉型還有他們的其實我們看到我們現場去看到他有時候不是跟著你們的輔導團去做因為他有時候甚至認為說輔導團可能還怎麼樣要所資很 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6197.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6219.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
很貴啊 因為就是說一個比較正規的輔導團你知道嗎 有時候你說要一個AI的這個什麼捷運化他就要兩千萬 然後他可能要兩千萬 那他們自己做他們自己做可能運用一個比較基本的電動車然後再加上一些就是說他們的軟硬體的規劃設計可能幾百萬就可以達到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6224.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6239.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
這個部分有沒有辦法也納入你剛才所說的他們可以減低賦稅啊這未來的認證問題是不是也要協助中小企業去做相關的就是說升級減稅的認證啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6242.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6269.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
也應該要協助他們因為這個東西中小企業可能跟我們在政府部門裡面思考的會有點不一樣我們可能都認為說要做大可是中小企業如果能夠部分部分而且階段性的來做修正的時候那也會提升他們的產能然後變成他們的一個競爭力好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6270.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6281.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
好好的這個部分我們是不是請經濟部還有產發署大力來協助好不好是好謝謝好謝謝謝一鳳委員謝謝部長跟書長好接下來我們請這個鄭振堅委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6297.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6311.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
謝謝主席我想請一下我們經濟部公民心部長還有我們國家大臣委員會葉俊賢主任委員主委就坐著好不好謝謝腳不舒服理解政委好部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6313.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6336.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
因為今天那個召委安排了經濟部跟國家發展委員會的補助案審查機制還有投資案審查程序中的利衝圖迴避規範全面檢討專案報告那在專案報告當中的時候我們大概就是針對我們經濟部的補助還有國發會的投資這個程序當中的相關的問題那我們來做一些討論那我想說我第一個案子這邊的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6338.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6363.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
想要延續剛剛楊瓊英委員他特別提到的世豐電力這件事情那我想特別講的一個情況是說因為世豐電力他在2020年國發會投資進來的時候當時的主委是我們現在的公民心部長所以公民心部長對這件事情肯定其實是有相當的一個瞭解 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6364.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6384.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
我想應該是這樣的一個情況那現在因為整個的那個世豐電力的情況因為也受到了一個生物能源的一個影響生物能源的一個影響那我們看到這個狀態的時候我比較好奇的一個情況是因為世豐世豐電力它從1996年就開始做環評 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6391.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6404.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
1996年很長的時間政府也沒有給他做特別的輔導那更不要說國發會要去投資他了從1996年環皮一路走到2020年國發會突然間投資他了20% |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6408.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6435.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
投資了20%那這過程當中的時候我覺得有一個可能最大的變數就是永威在2019年的時候2019年的時候永威他也投資了一個四豐電力那我想請教一下工部長因為當時您是主委當時是什麼樣的狀態的時候讓四豐電力就是走了十幾年的環評都沒有走通 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6436.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6455.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
然後國發基金在您當時主導的國發會之下的時候竟然就願意投他20%就是5.52億元我跟部長報告一下這個20%有多大你知道嗎我們看到就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6456.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6480.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
國發基金現在所提出來的一個資料當中這69家公司當中扣除了跟台山有關的可能有9家就是世豐、電力它排在前10大國發基金投資持股的比例在前10大大概排名第8名這麼大的一個投資的一個狀態我想請教一下部長當時是怎麼決策的 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6486.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6512.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
他都是有案子的話他是審查委員而且他是應該是匿名的嘛那抽到的部分就來做審查那審查通過以後的話那有一些案子是會報到管理會有些是不用理解好不好這是標準的一個做法嘛可是我在想說因為他之前從96年開始做環評都沒有通過結果你20年的時候突然間投資他20%這怎麼一回事很難解釋啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6513.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6522.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
是不是有什麼特別的利益的糾葛還是什麼特別的一個影響讓整個國發基金的投資的時候做了一個這麼重大的一個轉折 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6524.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6548.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
對我來講因為那時候您看到了投資他那是7月份我520上任所以按照道理前面的前置的這個審查作業啊或者是在做投評會應該已經執行過了那我在想說為什麼特別提到這個狀態因為國發基金是大家是老百姓的錢啊去投每一筆錢都不應該很就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6550.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6574.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我想因為當初因為它主要是做小水利啦那對於淨零來講的話到現在投資七年了現在還是沒有任何的獲利喔你知道嗎剛剛楊瓊議員特別提到了現況的一個情況喔比方說現在市場上講說他們現在只剩下五個人而且可能還在市場中想要找買家可能想要去清算那我想要請教一下喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6576.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6589.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
針對這個部分因為20%的持股我相信國發基金應該有派董事在這個公司當中請問這個董事有沒有盡到責任隨時來回報這公司的一個狀態這個我請那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6593.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6612.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
跟委員報告確實我們有拜董事那董事也都有回報那我剛也跟楊委員在報告就是說在公司治理的這一個部分那至於說現在公司碰到的挑戰因為小水利發電他前面包括這個他要開路到這個山上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6612.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6628.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
用這個水的這個落差來發電這整個工程的施工過程當中直到他掛上電網他才能開始有營收這個是常態這個都沒有問題其實小水靈海本來就是這樣的一個情況那我只是在想說從96年做環評到2020年有多長的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6632.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6658.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
二十四年啊 你知道嗎二十四年之後才得到我們國發基金的一個法眼的一個去看然後投了二十億之後到七年下來的時候什麼都沒有還是空在這裡然後現在馬上就碰到了一個情況是市場上說它可能要被清算掉它要找買家那剛剛楊瓊玉非常具體的講到說現在從二十三億的資本現在只剩下五億嚴重的一個縮水 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6659.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6673.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這個部分我覺得不應該是我們國發基金在投資就是特定企業當中的時候碰到的一個情況那尤其是我們20%的時候我們有董事在裡頭不應該讓整個的一個投資站變成這樣的一個情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6674.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6690.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
所以我們針對這部分我這邊也特別呼籲一下就是剛剛楊淳營他提到最後三點的部分我們也希望經濟部跟國發會這邊的時候後續把相關的處理也給本辦公室有一個很清楚的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6691.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6713.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
那剩下的時間我想特別再問一個部分就是有關於加強投資中小企業實施方案因為已經到第二期了那這個部分是因為我們國發基金這邊有匡列了100億同時在走那我看到這個國發會之前特別提到一個情況就是說我們之前總共投資了320 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6715.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6729.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
328家企業然後已經處分了199家企業然後實現獲利52.27億元那我知道這是很正面的部分可是我們也同時看到了到113年底的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6730.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6755.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
就是還持股的部分有147家然後其中有110家是還持續虧損當中大概佔了75% 四分之三的一個比重非常非常的高然後連續三年虧損有66家然後那個累計虧損超過十多支本二分之一有36家這個表示說我想特別請教的一個情況是說我們對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6758.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6787.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
加強投資中小企業實施方案這部分因為我們現在又進到第二期當中我們第一期的情況的時候顯然不是很好的一個表現因為還有這麼多家就是還在持股那我想請教的狀態就是這個199家就是儲分的股份都是獲利才儲分然後沒有獲利就繼續持股這是國發就是基金在投資我們中小企業的時候相關的一個做法是不是具體是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6789.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6811.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
是不是容許中信署這邊說明首先這個第一期的投資因為我們都投資在非常早期的企業那目前其實投資進了94億已經完全回本那剩下的案子因為持股都超過8年以上所以他可能本來在早期投資會比較有風險那我們剩餘的案子都加強投後管理那盡量幫助他們可以盡快處分這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6813.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6842.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
OK對於投後管理這部分肯定是我們很重視那因為投資坦白說就會有風險可是因為是國發基金投資的時候對很多中小企業來講大家都很希望得到國發基金的青睞啊能夠進到你們的髮眼當中因為國發基金投對他們有很多很多的一個價值所以我想說當我們在匡列這樣一百億的時候我們本身也是支持的是 鮑委員他這個剛好是反過來講是民間有投 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6843.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6858.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
國發基金才會跟投理解中央企業方案是這樣理解民間為主那剛剛我們同仁有講說我們投出去基本上都已回本了雖然所持有的股票雖然有些公司還在困損當中但是那個都是回本之後還有的資產 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6861.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
6877.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
因為國發畢竟是投資啦它跟經濟部的補助案其實不太一樣既然是投資的時候我們就希望說它有更好的一個績效的呈現出來所以說當我們看到說目前還有在 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
6879.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
6893.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
147家公司當中還有三分之二的時候是處於四分之三處於虧損的狀態的時候我們就希望整個投資的一個方向能夠更精準那因為在第二期當中的時候匡列了100億110年開始第二期匡列100億當中的時候他有特別提到鬆綁投資對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
6895.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
6900.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那雙馬投資對象的時候我們就會擔心說那接下來我們在國發經濟這邊投資的一個狀態風險會不會提高那這部分是本席要特別提出來的狀態那麼希望我們的投資的方向然後標準能夠更清楚的讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
6913.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
6927.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
就是中小企業他們有一個很具體的一個依循那我當然知道說我們這個100億的框架的時候是有些民間投資我們才跟著去跟投的一個部分就是搭配的一個比例那我覺得這都沒有問題可是我希望我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
6929.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
6956.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
國發經濟投資的時候績效能夠更好不是說我們現在處分了199家之後我們有實現獲利52億好感覺這個還持續被綁在這裡的狀態的時候好像就不需要去做太多的投後管理的一個機制我們希望這個部分的時候就是國發經濟這邊的時候能夠嚴加去管理包括我們剛剛釋封的狀態我們今天要派董事在裡面就不應該讓他企業走到這樣的一個地步好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
6957.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
6962.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
好 謝謝OK 謝謝好 謝謝這個鄭正前委員待會中嘉賓委員質詢完畢後休息8分鐘接下來請中嘉賓委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
6985.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
6998.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
主席蔡黨委員先進列席政府主要社長官員會長共同夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請經濟部拱部長法制司羅司長以及廉政署的林副署長法制司還有廉政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7001.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7019.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
委員好部長好 司長好 副組長好我們今天談防晶片疏忠要儘速修訂貿易法規那麼投訴司的前官員轉任民間是用旋轉門嗎來 我還是程旭的之前關心的現行的戰略性高科技貨品的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7020.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7042.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
我在這裡有一份移民具名的公文,就是圖上的,是在今年的2月11日發布的他的目的是說,要去進行戰略性高科技服務的種類,根據法院依據貿易法第13條然後第二項,然後他這裡說的說,管制地區有6個國家,包括大陸地區那麼這裡面有一個很奇怪的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7043.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7067.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
這六個國家一般在國際社會上稱為流氓國家我們打個比方啊這些就是對某些店家來講不受歡迎的客人有這六個但是其中呢大陸地區這個客人呢我們的管制項目只管制十二類請問部長現在這個輸出的管制清單是不是一萬多項有一萬多項嘛因為你公告內容我去查了一下有一萬多項 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7069.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7084.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
HS code 沒有錯 有一萬多項 但是中國大陸只管制了這12項您可以告訴我們這個嚴格嗎 我這邊查的結果呢將大陸地區列入管制區是在2003年林烏部長貶時期列進去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7088.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7112.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
到了馬政五時期 到了2011年他一樣保持大陸地區列在這幾個管制區但是關鍵出現在2012年那時候的施言翔部長就公告了一個說就是這一段前向大陸地區之輸出管制限這些設備12類的半導體晶圓製造設備其他的通通是用非管制區 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7113.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7121.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
不是 你覺得合理嗎這六個客人不受歡迎其中五個 一萬個都產品不能賣但是這個中國這個只有十二項不能賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7123.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7148.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
這不是開關門嗎包委員因為當初來講主要我們是管制我們台灣不要去中國高階的這個半導體的這個製造尤其是12吋以上的那所以說這些基本上都是但是晶片高階晶片還是賣啊製造對不對好我們告訴你國際貿易講究自由貿易為主要的原則要任何的管制要與法有據要符合國際條約對不對我們國際貿易是個原則嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7151.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7160.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
但是我們看到以貿易法第十三條之一瀕臨絕種動植物及其產製品非經許可不得輸出也不得輸入啊當年的立法背景為何 是不是很嚴格 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7162.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7182.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
瀕臨絕種的動物植物,這很嚴重嗎?為什麼要帶特別輸出管制?因為當時有《華盛頓公約》嘛所以全世界國家都對這個共同限制嘛,對不對?是不是這樣子?我都幫你講出來了,也呼應了國際趨勢好,為了履行瀕臨絕種動物植物的國際貿易公約所以我們徵定了這第一項,當時的立法理由好,往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7183.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7210.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那如果我們要防止金面書中要符合遵守國際貿易協定根據這個很長這對等貿易協定跟美國對等貿易協定叫ART它裡面是不是寫的台方應有效且健全管制制度防止先進半導體及相關設備不是只有產制的設備喔要怎樣 涵蓋國家包括哪個北韓 中國 俄羅斯 伊朗違反出口管制的要進行執法經濟部做得怎麼樣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7212.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7234.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
包委員這個是ART如果簽訂我們立法機關如果有通過的話那如果不簽訂你就不提出嗎我們仍然會盤點因為我同意剛剛提到12項因為環境已經不一樣了所以我們會再重新盤點積極面對好不好那我給你一個建議我幫你想好了13條之二怎麼改 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7235.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7242.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
特定機體電路半導體晶圓相關製程設備及其產製品非金屬款居然虛可不得輸入大陸地區啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7243.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7267.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
就比照十二條之一的方式定了十二條之二把半導體相關這個東西這次推定項目就跟瀕臨絕種的野生動物一樣然後呢什麼地區中國大陸地區部長這樣可以嗎知不支持謝謝謝謝謝謝委員的提供那我們委員提供來講我們還要跨部門做一些討論經濟部要積極認識好不好好的好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7267.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7292.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
出口要管制但是特定資金來台要加上管制為了考慮到國家利益特定的產業資品像半導體像晶圓不能出口到像中國這種特定國家貿易法裡面政府要介入管制同樣的來自這些特定地區的資金來源投資特定公司有兩岸條例來進行管制對不對是的 是的好 那往下看現在有一家叫做數字雲端在台灣是被美國制裁管制的公司美國公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7292.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7306.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
制裁管制名單 他說怎樣 違反美國利益他是一個中資在台的子公司叫做數字雲端赫蘭在列 原因是他跟中國的軍工產業高度關聯替中國開發AI跟超級電腦 嚴不嚴重 有沒有違反台灣的利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7308.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7326.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
這個個案我來瞭解一下你覺得美國制裁的他這樣講的內容聽起來會不會對台灣也有嚴重會不會您提到的是數字雲端我來瞭解一下我告訴你數字雲端怎麼來的數字雲端當年它母公司是中國浪潮在2015年未經許可就在台灣設置它違法在台灣經營機上和應用 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7327.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7350.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
他的薪水營運費用都是由香港的惠仲公司就這家公司後來他透過香港惠仲公司呢在2015年申請投資數字雲端多次的要求補正資料後來呢投審會給他過了在2019年他還申請增資結果在增資的申請案當中發生一個弊案這個公司呢去刑費立法委員開協調會知不知道這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7351.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7359.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
有沒有知不知道我沒有掌握到你回去趕快請你們同仁查一下你認為這樣的情況法院都判了脫審會有沒有輸出責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7364.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7387.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
這個時候在2019年他透過增資的時候他去行會請託立法委員大家訪問上查就有他指派到辦公室主任辦理這兩個人都因為違反職務受賄罪被判刑收受賄款對投審會施壓當時的投審會的執名的張明明都是召開協商會在2020年核定他的增資部長投審會看起來法院都判了 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7389.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7396.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
官員沒有收賄啦是立委跟他的辦公室人員收賄被判刑了投審會員有沒有受到壓力你覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7398.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7425.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
這要了解好 你還要了解 你趕快了解我們往下看所以民團要求那時候的執迷障明明下台好像不管因為可能官員整個判決沒有提到官員但是經濟部怎麼補救從2016年核准 2020年增資傑拉會被施壓結果現在這個公司被美國制裁我們投審會的把關會不會失靈呢會不會是官員漏洞呢那如果這樣的話是不是要怎麼補救可不可以廢止他的登記跟撤資可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7429.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7451.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
各位各位你要要研究那如果有需要要趕快補救好不好好如果真的有必要因為美國都制裁他了如果真的也認為損害台灣的國家利益過這個過程當中又疑似有不是明確有法院判決有立委來介入施壓被判刑了投審會的把關機制可能要檢討這家公司如何補救經濟部回去研究一下可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7454.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7478.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
可以往下看但是我們又看到了現在當時投審會的執密呢他現在後來變成司長他是一個投處司的司長現在我們看到官網上他的職務調整中結果在理律法律事務所看到他聘他為特聘資深顧問6月30號經濟部的現任官員可以在昨天就去就任理律的法律事務所嗎可不可以這位張司長是前司長嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7483.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7488.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
他已經離開投審司了那現在是退休還是離職 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7489.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7514.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
他現在是退休了他是退休所以退休公務員退休後只要不受到公務員服務法第16條旋轉的限制應該是主改以後他就沒有再擔任投資投審司的司長了他就變成是投資促進司的司長投促司的司長嘛對對對投促司投審會這是兩件事情但是畢竟他已經不是現任官員了離職了退休了 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7514.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7533.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
他當然可以尋求他的第二人生發揮他在顧問累積的智慧跟專長我們都支持但是我們看一下他離職了那麼李綠這個專門在有社路大陸小組處理兩岸投資的這個事務所聘用他當顧問你覺得社會上會怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7536.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7554.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
他當年他在經濟部任職的時候他處理的是什麼?陸資來台審查的工作他現在退休了他去到一個以處理大陸兩岸投資為主的這個主改以後他就沒有擔任這樣的審查工作了是啦但是我們還是要問嘛他的業務有沒有可能有選擇門條款的適用往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7557.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7577.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
因為按照我問過我們人士來講因為律師行業他不屬於這個規範的範圍說得很好我相信啊退休官員退休前他會問清楚但是我這裡不是質疑他的行為是認為這樣的一個程序部的含釋說法律事務所不適用跟社會的認知差距太大 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7577.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7601.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
公務人員服務法說他僅認定直接關係人沒有涵蓋中間的服務機構你就看目前投審師我們的投訴師我們所有來到台灣的外資投資審查哪一個不是透過律師事務所的服務所以其實律師事務所他其實是跟我們的職務是密切相關結果你到退休後到那個地方去認職有沒有必要我們前官員去轉任法律顧問的實質影響力 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7603.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7626.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
經濟部是不是要跟選舉部來研究一下選舉部條款的定義啊是不是要有更實質的與時俱進的一個調整部長你覺得咧但是我們還是尊重這個選舉部的職權是你們當然尊重選舉部但是我還是跟委員再補充一句就是說張明斌基本上他在卸任前他已經不是投審司的司長他是投資出軍司所以他不 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7627.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7647.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
沒有參與審議的工作了但是他過去的職業生涯在進一步任職期間啊他有很長的業務對象就是像理律事務所這樣的那不能說他過去的業務有對象他就不能去轉任這我也理解法律要明文規定但是這樣的法律的規範是否跟社會的認知會有一個什麼差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7648.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7672.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
民團又詫異說這個以前在經濟部都是專門負責入資投資審議的都是理律在辦現在結束後到理律去外界會怎麼感覺部長我是擔心外界有一些聯想是不是把這個部分拿去也跟全新部提出來表達他們這樣的含釋是不是要因應著實況的特殊條件情況下要更明確的讓公務員有所預詢好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7674.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7702.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
可不可以 可以所以訴求防堵高階晶片輸往中國經濟部應盡速修訂貿易法增訂13條之二限制半導體晶片輸出到中國可以考慮研議嗎還是正在做了可以 我們正在研議好 正在做了好 針對數字雲端公司它設置中資投資在台灣損及到台灣包括美國的國家利益經濟部司法重新徹查一個月內交一個書面報告對數字雲端我們來了解一下可以嗎好 可以可以最後關於投審會的前官員不管了其實這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7705.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7726.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
轉任法律律師事務所的特別顧問這個部分是不是在實質上已經是我們公務員服務法選擇委員條款所要的規範的對象請你跟全日部來做一個研討好不好好那就一樣一個月內提出書面報告可以嗎好可以好謝謝好謝謝鍾小平委員謝謝部長接下來我們的話就休息八分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7926.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7942.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8016.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8018.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8067.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8071.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8117.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8146.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8161.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8161.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
感谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8189.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8189.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8265.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8287.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
好 我們現在會議繼續進行 接下來的話呢 我們有請鄭天才委員質詢好 主席還有我們各部會的官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8288.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8315.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
我們先請那個國發會的主委我們請國發會的主委坐著好這個今天非常謝謝昭偉安排今天的一個議程我們看一下這個臨日供給這個案子當然都不是這個都是之前的案子了 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8316.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8330.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
那這個案子這個在經濟委員會或是總諮詢這個很多委員都提過請問一下以現在的檢討來看你們對這個案子的檢討是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8334.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8360.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
有檢討過嗎這個案子好像還沒有提到那個嗎沒有檢討這個是文化部的案子那所以文化部是他們內部國發基金的這是用國發基金是國發基金是國發會主管的所以不能因為之前也你們的答覆就是這樣這是錯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8363.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8385.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
真的要檢討 我們直接就從法例來看產業創新條例寫得很清楚為加速產業創新價值促進經濟轉型及國家發展《鄰日攻擊》它是一部電影一部電影跟產業創新價值 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8388.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8417.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
有什么关系跟促进经济转型及国家发展有什么关系对这个是国发会要去检讨的虽然说那个是国文化部是在主导但是毕竟是国发基金没有错吧是用国发基金吧没有错好我们看看产业创新条例第三十条国发基金的用途写得清清楚楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8418.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8444.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
沒有一款是符合的就算是行政院專案核准其他經行政院專案核准也必須符合產業創新條例第29條都必須要符合沒有一個符合有啦那個委員你看那個第4條下面有一個文化創意發展這個部分錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8447.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8474.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我就知道你要講這個到現在為止都還沒有真正的檢討一部電影怎麼會是文化創意發展呢它就不是一部電影呢過去的戰爭的電影呢不要你可以從其他的但是不要用國發基金你可以用文化部的經費可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8475.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8481.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
文化部的经费有符合的但是就不是文化创意发展 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8483.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8509.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
不過這邊再跟那個委員報告一下就是那個文化部的那個文化創意的那一個條例裡面其實有寫說我們國發基金其實不是不是那個文化部的那個創業條例是另外但是他是針對他的經費並不表示沒有他裡面有那個那個主委如果到現在還這樣的話那就這個國發基金就可以亂花了 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8510.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8535.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
那就全部花在原住民身上好了原住民的創業很多需要的啊有嗎 沒有一筆啊到目前沒有一筆啊你回去清查一下不要跟我搶便你回去清查一下原住民的創業產業創新好 我們看這個第一條未促進產業創新 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8538.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8565.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
第一條產業創新條例第一條為促進產業創新改善產業環境提升產業競爭力指農業工業及服務業等各行業所以我們還是要回到這個第29條國發基金設立國發基金的目的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8566.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8590.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
你回去檢視一下國發基金有沒有用在原住民的產業創新跟經濟轉型沒有啊所以你跟我搶騙啦真的已經有這麼多的立委質疑了我們也會認真的考慮所以這個部分這是作為一個國發會 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8594.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8617.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
我常常以什麼例子你們一定要借鏡台灣之所以現在的經濟發展台積電是不是一個很重要的是不是台積電不只台積電其他都還蠻都很重要好台積電沒有否認如果你否認的話台積電當時啊國家的經濟多麼的 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8623.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8650.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
不如現在的情況之下而那時候是要以反攻大陸為主的年代當時的經濟部長當時的這個政務委員當時的行政院院長當時的總統能夠去那個年代去投入而現在有這樣的一個這麼多的經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8652.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8669.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
要有這樣的一個,而不是把錢亂花啦這個很重要那跟委員報告,我們那個錢真的都還審查算蠻嚴格的我們真的很嚴格在審查你現在很嚴格,以前不嚴格啦我想都不是講你現在的好不好接下來請經濟部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8683.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8709.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
好當然這個跟國發會也有關係跟經濟部也有關係當然這個適逢電力這個原住民都抗議了然後諮商同意都沒有過環評也沒有過就這樣國發基金投入對不對這個就是一個需要去大大的檢討的地方啦大大的檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8710.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8734.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
好 接下來我就開始 因為時間不多我就回到這個最新的也不是很新 以這個馬灘西燕社府來講潰壩已經快10個月了快10個月這個是三期段鳳林鎮三星里那邊的三期段這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8736.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8759.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
上次我有執行過 當時水利署署長也同意要開始做現在進度怎麼樣進度報告委員 這個應該是在花蓮溪的部分 三星大馬那邊我們會來整治好 我來看這個地圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8763.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8787.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
這旺里溪這段時間經濟部水利署也很辛苦了這個堤防的加固加高 都在進行中這個地方我上次有跟這個署長提過剛才那個部分這個部分它是花蓮溪那因為馬灘溪的兩側 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8790.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8798.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
提防都加固加高了未來的衝擊就在這裡加上加上忘記 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8799.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8828.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
對不對加上望里溪啊就是在這個點是 這個我們會來努力花蓮溪跟這個望里溪然後上面你都加固加高了所以這個地方是未來最大的衝擊點沒有錯 我們會來努力好不好是 這應該的這個部分是一個需要特別去有 我們今天有盤點會積極來辦理因為我目前看你們的施作的那個在這個區塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8830.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8837.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
還是不足CRT對我們會來努力上次有承諾委員我會來積極辦理沒問題是謝謝委員加油謝謝好謝謝這個正天才文接下來我們請奈會委員奈會委員奈會委員再我們請李玉玲委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8861.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8867.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
謝謝主席 請葉主委請國外葉主委 因為他腳傷所以讓他坐著我知道 請坐謝謝委員好 謝謝葉主委我們今天要談的國發基金 剛剛委員一直強調國發基金就是依據產業創新條例的第29條來設立的 最重要我們是要期盼能夠透過我們的投資融資跟信用保證跟我們資金 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8890.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8898.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
補助的方式多元的方式來協助我們國內較具潛力的這個企業的成長也配合著國家整體的這個產業的策略那尤其像我們的台積電在成立之初就是我們國發基金一路的來相挺它造就它今天成為我們世界第一個半導體的這個公司那尤其是我們現在國發基金國發會也是最大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8918.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8941.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
所以在這方面的話我們有穩定的這個股利的收入那近幾年來我們看到國發基金這個我們的投資也爆發了投資失利跟監管失能的情形尤其是外界還嘲諷我們說未來的投資就看我們國發基金投資什麼我們就反指標這種方式你聽了做何感想 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8942.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8960.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
因為我們那個其實像企業直投方案有很多其實都在獲利當中雖然委員這邊有列出一些虧損但大部分的虧損公司其實我們那個本金都已經收回來了只是說有一些股票還沒有把它賣掉或是說放在那邊股票就被凍結了 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8962.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8991.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
那你看到我們國發基金裡面有直接管理的我說直接管理沒有委外的企業直接投資的方案裡面有69家投資進去21家虧損創業天使這個投資方案的話有投資268家33家都虧損這個很難讓人家接受那我們是認為說國發基金在這種情形之下的話讓我們國人沒辦法信任的那你們做這方面有沒有任何的調整方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8992.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9011.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
我們會持續的在精進就是說頭前的評估頭後的管理這部分我們都會做那委員列的這一些虧損的案件的話其實投資本來就有虧有贏有虧有贏有賺但是整個平均來講的話其實我們的投報還算是蠻不錯的投報你滿意就是了 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9019.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9039.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
至少在資產成長的倍數上面來看的話我們大概成長大概有105倍當然裡面有蠻大部分是台積電有Question我們就要檢討因為我們每一項投資裡面我們都有委外來做一個評估審慎的評估包括不管是技術跟財務跟稅務法務跟建架等等的領域我們都請專家來跟我們做一個協助評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9046.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9050.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
在有這個協助評估他一定有給你建議 難道他這些建議你們都不當一回事嗎我們這個部分會公開透明的揭露給大家看投資評估給你的 這些建議你們會採納還是僅供參考我們會採納 假如說他那個建議是很公允的話我們會 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9070.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9073.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
你們都會採納吧 會會會本席這樣子問的話就是請你們真的要採納啦 會可是我們看到很多方式你們並沒有採納你們會用審議委員會的方式進行投資的最後表決但是我們看到你們在表決的時候所有審查的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9089.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9116.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
應該全部出席來做表決但是我們看到很多沒有出席喔也有代理的 也有請假的我知道你們有修改一下有的是二分之一 三分之二 或者四分之三的出席率去投資去表決 但是結果很多未出席的這樣子的公信力 這樣子的決定不是很正確的 是不是要再修正一下這個部分我是不是請那個我們指名跟那個委員好 指名你來做解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9118.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9132.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
是跟委員報告在投資我們每一個這個直接投資的方案都會經過三階段的這是三階段那剛委員講的說要不要全員出席的部分尤其是在投資評估審議會剛講的那個委外的專業評估那個評估書是經過淨值調查然後財務法務技術商業模式等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9141.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9161.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
提出來給專業的這個委員那委員是用在一個大的這個專業的池子裡面去抽籤的因為擔心說都是安排固定委員所以這一些評估報告他們都會去參採那至於說個別委員他在做投票的時候他覺得說這個案子對我們國家政策的發展對產業的發展這個企業本身的體質每一個委員是專業的去做這個判斷那在 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9167.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9192.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
投評會的時候一定是要譬如說舉例來講這一個委員抽到他但是他沒有時間來那就跳過了就往下一序去主評我要強調了為什麼你們知道重要性你們才從二分之一改三分之二最後還改到四分之三就是重視最後決定要公平公正而且能夠做到把關對不對但是你現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9194.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9221.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
我們要各部會首長來的有部份首長要來的 有些抽籤專家要來的但是你看到 部會首長都請代理人有些人請假 有些人不出席甚至你剛剛講的 有些委員沒有空為什麼會沒有空 他不來了 他反對就是你不要來好了 不要投票好了都有這些情形發生 所以就沒有辦法做到公正跟把關的最重要要素 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9222.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9236.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
所以你們要了解了解之後就要改過未來我希望未來出席最後的決定表決的人員全數都要到好不好不能到的人我們請別人到絕對不能有代理跟請假 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9236.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9254.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
是 我們持續來精進不然你們的從二分之一到四分之三這個意義都不大了了解不要有人故意有意見的就迴避了好不好是 不會這種情形不要再發生不會才能夠真正的幫我們把關是是是我們投資才會更好好不好這都是人民的納稅錢是是是絕對不能輕忽的是是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9255.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9257.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
那接下來我想請問的就是說我們國發基金為了擺脫一些外界的罵名對我們的不信任等等所以我們經過2024年的6月我們有提出9項的精進投資的管理措施對我們的投資我們要有效益 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9273.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9280.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
跟風險的管控等等所以我們也成立了這個投資的整合管理的平台這目前有七項的專案基金都有各部會 跨部會來做一個績效的檢討的機制都有來做另外有兩項 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9289.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9315.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
是直接我們國發基金裡面由內部直接審查的包括企業直接投資的方案跟創業天使投資的方案剛剛都有提到了有投資的部分也有虧損的部分但是我們看到在我們國發基金的內部裡面的這個投審機制裡面我們各部會是自行去做投資的評估再送到國發基金做備查 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9316.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9336.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
所以國發基金你們沒有任何的角色你們是負責出錢虧錢也是你們在虧這樣子合理嗎這樣子你們的權責分工在哪裡呢跟那個委員報告這個也是為什麼我們要成立一個百億基金的投資平台一樣就是說我們每一季會就他們通過的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9336.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9352.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
然後進行去審查那假如說有一些不太合規的案子的話我們在每一季的那個工作會議我們其實就會建議他就把它剔除掉所以我們會精進後面的頭前評估的這個部分我們會持續的來精進這個部分對 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9353.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9376.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
因為虧損是大家不願意的那投你們要出錢之前你們要審慎賠估譬如我們中小企業的這個投資方案裡面我們投資了333家我們虧損了也53家所以我認為這個專案這個基金部分我們國發會你們要有角色你們也要進去審查你不能他們審查說可以你們就可以了是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9377.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9393.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
你們有沒有負責這個責任未來的話我們那個投資協調平台的話不只會在那個投錢管理甚至連投錢評估甚至連投後管理都會做出很積極的建議甚至也會幫每一個基金去找一些案源 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9394.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9415.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
好還有另外的就是運動產業跟大健康產業在這個運動產業這個部分的話本來我們的質詢的請問的時候你們說4月份的時候告訴我們說5月份就會完成現在已經7月份了那現在進度到哪裡了運動產業7月15會公告公告之後就會進已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9419.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9436.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
對 五月已經公告五月公告兩個月就7月15號那接下來他就會送到那個管理委員會管理委員會就會通過就會通過了那另外一個大健康產業呢大健康還在規劃進度還在推 到哪裡了但現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9438.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9458.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
還在衛福部啦不過部長有持續的跟我表達就是說他們其實會在今年年底之前會想辦法讓大健康產業這個也會有會進到那個百億基金裡面既然已經投出計畫的話不要再這些環節的卡關子啦那對全民才有真的福利好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9460.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9463.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
主席 我們有請我們經濟部國務部長請經濟部國務部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9492.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9497.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
好久不見我們在學界時常開會這個時常見面也曾經為台灣一起打拚過那您也曾經擔任長久的學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9512.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9537.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
也參與過很多的經濟部等國家機關的補助的審查案的審查委員因為我們學者這個是常態那根據您的報告裡面也就是說我們現在經濟部的補助的審查外部委員您覺得這個外部委員您也做過 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9538.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9549.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
那我也做過 而學經濟的可能比我的機會更多你這個外部委員真的有辦法做到幫我們審查的效用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9551.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9571.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
因為這些外部委員大部分都是學者或是法人團體就是學術的或研究機構的法人團體至少他的態度上因為他不是業者他不是某一個企業的業者所以至少從身份上來講的話他算是利益上比較橫貧的 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9575.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9585.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
但是主管機關邀請他,我以前曾經很調皮有一個單位請我去審查,我就真的發表反對意見,後來他就不再找我了不會餒 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9588.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9615.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
因為甚至於我們現在有很多的這些也不一定是要真實的表達也有匿名的等等的一些程序啦您提到重點也就是那個表決的程序表決的程序通常不會匿名啦如果有匿名的話我今天邀三個學者來裡面有一兩票匿名是反對了大概三個全部下次都不會被邀請 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9617.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9643.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
這就是我們台灣現在的制度也就是我們外部委員沒辦法做到真的客觀獨立現在比較多的是這樣啦就是說我們有預算然後很多的這些企業團體來申請嘛那我們當然都希望來支持這些企業團體那當然有一個低標啦如果沒有達到那個低標就淘汰啦但是通常會用類似排序的方式啦就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9644.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9672.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
這些第一名第二名第三名從這樣來看比較是這樣當然還有最低的標準沒有達到當然就要淘汰比較是這個樣子所以就是說我們還是會從這些好的裡面選出最好的最優先來支持他這樣子所以部長我坦白講我不相信這些外部委員真的能夠幫我們把關所以我們要靠制度那靠制度我看您在利益衝突法裡面有講到關係人 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9674.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9700.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
那這個關係人已經如列很清楚這個厲害關係人有沒有必要這麼限縮我們留英留美的我們都相信一句話陽光是最好的防腐劑揭露嘛 就是你有提到的把你跟這個案子這個受補助之人 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9702.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9727.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
跟這個單位跟這個案子只要有利害關係都可以揭露沒必要限縮在利益衝突法這麼限縮的六項的範圍之內也就是說例如這個受補貼的單位他跟執政黨曾經有政治獻金或是有同黨籍的關係這種資訊揭露其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9732.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9752.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
對任何人都無害那只是太陽而已只是陽光讓我們恍惚而已那我個人看到我們的利害關係人這麼限縮很顯然 避重就輕我們現在很多政府的補助案 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9753.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9781.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
都是當時選舉有戰馬功勞有捐款有補選的拿到政府的標案至少經濟部我看當然是不會這樣因為我們還是都是公開公平的那我剛才提到的現在審查委員大部分他們也沒有參與這些啦因為部長您在經濟部關心很多產業發展而我一直在學界然後一直在從事選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9783.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9811.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
所以我知道這個人跟某一個黨有哪一種關係捐了多少錢甚至利益輸送了多少我這一點比部長還比較了解一點因為部長理論很通但是我的實務是真正體察到這一點所以我看你們的那個揭露表那個揭露表你們就根據第六項這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9813.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9833.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
第一項到第六項這樣揭露是否將來可以增加有政黨利害關係有捐款的關係或是有該黨籍的 執政黨黨籍的關係也揭露給我們人民知道呢因為那個表格它是有一致性啦我們是依據113年這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9839.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9867.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
6號的時候那個監察院還有法務部在這個同就是6月13號他們的這個通知我們按照他的這個通函來做這樣的一個表格那我想這個我們還是這個是您全責之內可以改的也就是說也不是不讓你標啦你可以標啦但是你揭露你跟執政黨以及執政黨內某一些人他有捐款的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9869.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9894.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
或是有同黨籍的關係也不是不讓他飆啊我們只是要人民知道你跟執政黨有什麼關係而已而這個是部長職權內可以做得到我想這個部分我想跨部會還是他有一次性的中央部會還是要有一次性的做法那這個部分是不是容許我們跟法務部來做一些討論您剛剛的建議是不是有可能也放在是不是要修法是一回事那我們表格裡面可不可以加上這些修改表格而已對 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9896.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9908.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
如果可以的話完成是否三個月內能夠送到我辦公室來我們來跟保護部討論一下太好了我沒有這個晚會交你這個朋友有這樣一個部長謝謝部長好謝謝許中興委員謝謝部長再來歡迎王洪威委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9927.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9940.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
好謝謝主席那今天是我們國發基金主委他是因為那個腳傷腳傷所以就在位子上坐著對不對好就是答詢好沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9945.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9957.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
今天謝謝昭緯安排的專案報告這個專案報告的緣起主要是因為外界在質疑我們的國發基金在蘇貞昌擔任行政院長的任內國發基金補助 補好 補滿也就是蘇貞昌 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9967.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9982.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
院長的女兒蘇巧淳可以在國發基金拿到相關的補助可是我看到我們今天國發基金的報告我們去除這個封面去除封面整個的A4紙就這樣的一張別對外界這麼多的疑慮有沒有利益迴避的問題有沒有公開透明的問題補助的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9997.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9998.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
最後就這樣子AFO紙一張如果去除到跟我們委員會問好還有講國發會的宗旨三分之一的篇幅不見了 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10013.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10020.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
所以真的很有誠意來做報告嗎真的很有誠意來落實所謂的公開公平嗎剛才經營部長也說 我們政府單位補助就要公開公平可是有公開嗎 好 我現在給大家看 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10035.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10052.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
我們在整個的補助裡面國發會有很多補助 其中我們的促轉基金會結束之後有所謂的促轉正義基金移到國發會來做執行補助然後因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10057.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10083.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
我們現在有這個所謂的促轉基金有還原歷史真相的旗艦計畫計畫期程一年到兩年甚至最多最多補助可以到一千萬元之多既然是促進轉型正義那公開公平就是正義吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10085.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10091.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
結果我們去用資料國防會拒絕提供補助名單耶申請名單說基於個資不提供補助名單也不提供而且說一定要等到核定公佈之後所以意思就是錢都給好給滿之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10109.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10133.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
不往路上去公開才能夠看到這個名單但是奇怪了國寶基金在通過相關補助為什麼這個名單不能提供呢這樣有公平嗎這樣有透明嗎申請的單位不知道通過的單位不知道給了錢 給完錢之後才知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10137.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10162.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
這個過程真的很起人疑鬥既不公開也有失公平好 為什麼我們這個助展基金既然是正義根本沒有維持基本的正義呢好 我們來看它到今年五月份所在網路上我剛講這個都是錢都給囉錢都已經給囉這個名單裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10168.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10176.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
不看不知道一看就恍然大悟我們再看促進轉型正義基金裡面這些的補助對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10183.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10201.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
真的好熟悉啊真的好熟悉因為我相信我們很多委員都經歷過大罷免怎麼樣被這些大罷免團體在網路上 在各式的活動上 在街頭上怎麼樣的在發起大罷免的活動而這裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10203.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10213.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我們在國發會裡面所謂轉型正義基金裡面的補助單位譬如說包含這個顧寬敏基金會當時就是非常主要的發動大罷免的團體之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10221.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10249.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
另外台灣左轉文化協會這個跟我們現在的副院長鄭麗君女士也有非常深的淵源然後裡面還有台北市蔡月月文化基金會這個名為文化基金會但是當時大罷免的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10250.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10272.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
在他的臉書上堅持投入大罷免我也不懂啦 就是搞文化的也要來堅持投入大罷免好 所以我要講的如果在促轉正義基金裡面 你在補助的對象有這麼多涉入選舉 涉入政治 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10273.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10291.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
那你就要公開透明啊剛才許中信委員就講他在業界他在學界也常常聽說跟我們的執政者跟我們的執政黨有淵源的就很容易拿到相關補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10293.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10313.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
果不其然我剛才給大家看到的是第一階段的補助計劃金額但是接下來的就通通不提供那如果我們今天有關於補助你政府拿的是納稅人錢你自大要幫我不管你你今天拿你民進黨黨產我也管不到可是你拿的不都是納稅人的錢嗎都是從公庫拿錢啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10322.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10345.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
為什麼要用黑箱作業呢為什麼可以不提供補助名單呢我們現在各單位有樣學樣在之前文化部也是之前文化部因為一個臨日作戰臨日戰爭的補助案被曝光之後現在文化部也不給啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10346.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10351.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
都用一個所謂的涉及商業機密你要搞商業你就不要來跟政府補助嘛如果你要商業機密你就不要來跟政府申請補助啊怎麼可以一手拿政府的錢一手說我有商業機密所以不能公開呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10364.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10377.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
我們立法院還要監督嗎主委我知道你今天腳受傷請你回應一下這個補助名單為什麼不可以提供那你們到底要遮掩什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10378.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10398.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
第一個跟委員報告剛剛委員有提到的那個多元政見第一階段就是現在這個簡報上面的這個這個其實已經有公告在那個促進轉型正義基金公司我剛才有講啊我怎麼拿到名單呢那接下來的呢接下來委員提到那個起見計畫那個應該還沒審完 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10400.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10408.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
所以等到審完之後他還是會公告出來你告訴我的是通過名單已經有通過的已經有通過的不提供然後你要等到最後要到就是一定要等公告他現在還在審查的過程當中我現在就公告的話不就是代表我在操弄嗎所以就讓他整個審查完成之後就去公告他 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10426.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10443.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
好所以你現在可以承諾我等到你們因為你現在提供給我的公文是說要等到要等到那個什麼要等到公告整個的就是你們要上網路公告之後才會才會有這個名單大家才看得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10445.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10467.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
因為現在還在審查的過程當中所以審查本來基於的就是一個審查的一個公正性那不希望說有一些其他的一個干擾去影響到他的整個審查的一個公平性所以這個部分就可能要麻煩委員就是說是不是等一下等他審查完了那確定的時候他就會公告跟多元政見的狀況會是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10469.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10489.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
好 這就是 你現在不要給我什麼 等到你們通過之後就應該要提供通過之後就要提供 除非你們要騙人家嗎不會啦 不會啦你們根本不知道是什麼意思 就是已經給錢啦已經給錢 我直接告訴大家你們預定的時間是12月底 就是選舉完之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10491.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10498.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
你們告訴我就是大概你們預定的就是12月啊12月選舉都選完了錢也都給了然後我們知道又怎樣呢我們沒有那種預定事情我剛剛有講到裡面有這麼多大罷免名單有大罷免就會輔選啊不是嗎委員他那個每一個申請單位跟其他其他一些他有什麼樣的一個活動連結其實都不是我們審查的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10517.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10522.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
那今天剛好或許或許剛剛好每次都講剛好 這麼剛好啊別的團體為什麼沒有辦法剛好呢可是假如按照委員的說法的話應該所有的名單都是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10531.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10559.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
好 所以你的意思就要所有的名單喔你要所有的名單喔 深圳還不夠喔老實說我今天挑出來的 主委你要這樣講我現在挑出來的都是當時非常積極活躍的有的是在潛在海裡面的或者是其實他就是跟執政黨跟執政者的這些政治人物交好的我剛才指的還是直接跳出來再做大罷免對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10559.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10578.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
所以你覺得還不夠我們不會有任何偏頗還是依照專業在審查這件事情也請委員就是說相信這一些外部的委員專家因為我們也不想去干擾他我們都在相信你們外部委員就已經開始了嘛你們外部委員就找的就是這些這些團體的代表或者是這些親這些團體的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10583.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10608.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
我們政府單位長期以來這種各式各樣的補助就如同蘇草存你也說這是外部委員嘛尊重外部委員嘛那外部委員怎麼千挑萬挑的就可以挑到蘇貞昌的女兒呢對不對這個你可以以招公信嗎跟委員報告我們那個國發基金在審查投資案的時候所有的委員都是用抽籤的我們沒有事前沒有辦法預估是誰我們有一個破 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10609.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10635.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
但是我們那個抽煎是隨機抽煎的所以誰會上台 你這種話你這種話不用去講 講給三歲小孩沒有沒有 我要講就是怎麼這麼恰恰巧我告訴你這時候我還會繼續公佈你們國發會相關補助真的都要跟執政黨的政治人物執政黨的這些民意代表特別特別好 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10636.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10649.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
就很容易補助補好補滿別人來申請非常的困難啊然後現在我們今天開了一個專案報告你給了一個A4正反兩面什麼意思就是不想交代嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10651.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10659.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
這些補助案難道你們不應該很清楚的來跟立法院來做交代嗎我在這邊就不耽誤下面的委員的時間但是我請國發會不要假所謂的轉型正義之名去補助給特定的政治團體之實也不要假所謂的發展產業之名去補助給這些特定的特權的企業之實好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10682.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10686.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
好,謝謝王國興委員接下來請陳青龍委員質詢陳青龍主席,我請我們國防會的主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10705.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10707.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
我想今天我們的專案報告最主要就是針對我們的國防基金我們的國防會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10723.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10748.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那在這裡我們剛剛我們王委員也針對了我們的專案報告謝謝了就真的就這麼一頁來做我們的一個專案報告謝謝我們火花費的用心一頁就可以來做專案報告那在這裡我想在進入主題之前我要先詢問一下那個我下一頁的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10753.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10755.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我辦公室在5月26號就 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10760.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10779.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
來發給我們國安會希望我能夠提供啊礦石智能公司的一個相關資料那國安辦公室的公文位全部在上面但是到目前為止5月6日到今天已經7月5日7月5日那國安會這個資料所知啊不給就是不給 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10789.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10803.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那請問一下這案子為什麼不給是不是我們的礦石智能公司涉及到了這個資料有關是我們蘇貞昌前院長蘇巧慧我們的委員所以國安會能脫就脫能演就演 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10811.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10832.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
在這裡跟委員報告我們不會是指針對各個我們所有的案子都是這樣子所有的案子就是所知一個月一個多月的還是不給委員你聽我說有一些所知牽扯到各知以及牽扯到我只是要看世紀人的深情的投資資料為什麼好各知 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10837.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10841.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
公務人員依法行政我不希望我們同仁去違反一些規定比如說不違反規定的時候可以給已經過了一個多月了的時候可以給 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10850.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10865.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
他說可以給要不要給還是不要給你在這邊講清楚有牽扯到各自法牽扯牽扯了一個多月那你卻回來說牽扯到各自法我這是不給要不要給一個答案我們能夠給的都已經給了 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10868.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10879.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
二舅舅是不給不是你今天的答案就是不給那是不能給那牽扯到第二舅舅是不給好牽扯到各自不給今天就是答案我不跟你扯了牽扯各自跟營業交易我們不能給這個是讓同仁對啦一個投資方案就叫做情義啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10890.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10899.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
所以就是不給好來 我繼續來問我不曉得國防會在在擔心什麼不知道你在擔心什麼暗示住民主啊那是蘇喬純啊擔任董事兼營運廠的公司我要資料的這家公司那蘇喬純是誰我想聽過媒體啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10919.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10943.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
大家都知道的 蘇巧純就是蘇貞昌院長的女兒他的姊姊就是蘇巧惠委員然後2022年蘇貞昌是擔任我們的行政院長負責管轄國發基金蘇巧惠是立法委員負責監督我們的國發基金就這麼剛剛好 礦石智能公司他就 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10947.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
10949.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
拿到了我們國發基金1999萬9千元的投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
10955.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
10972.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
連年都不用年了直接啊 國防基金啊就給他投資了完全不是利益迴避這真的是國庫康通啊 書庫啊國家的就是書家的所以我在這裡我針對我們國防基金 國防費自己也都要說你們啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
10983.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
10994.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
沒有針對個人家族或背景對象提供所謂的差別待遇但是我們按照國際基金創業天使投資作業要點初次的投資不只超過2000萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11001.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11017.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
那跨市智能公司就這麼剛好就這麼剛好我們的投資啊 沈議委員會啊剛剛主委有講我們的外部委員真的就很厲害就剛好給他投資了1999萬9千元所以我在這裡我要問的 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11024.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11030.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
我們國防衛國防基金我們假如單就一個投資的效益來講請問你們為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11035.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11056.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
會投資只有一個唯一收入來源這個唯一收入來源我這邊有講就是我鼓勵的一個平臺何況這個平臺在我們投資之前投資之前它就有收入詐騙那我就請問我們國外基金國防會 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11057.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11062.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我們的投資評估選議會會怎麼選的就是這麼厲害剛好投資了我跟委員報告我們今天討論機制我們討論機制不是討論個案我覺得個案不是以在這邊做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11072.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11076.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我絕對從個案看你們的通案從個案看你們的通案不是很合適在這邊討論這個個案已經公開了啊這裡媒體啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11087.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11091.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
媒體啊公開啊問你們個案啊你們有發布啊新聞稿做說明啊所以這是一個公開的訊息啊委員就公開的訊息在委員會提出知情為什麼主委你還是針對所謂個案從個案看你們的同案 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11109.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11122.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
委員我這邊跟你分享一下就是說這一個個案已經到監察院了所以我想我們就是尊重監察院尊重監察院我今天執行日嘛我要來執行日好啊這個也是機制啊我今天跟你談論就是從個案看到機制出了問題啊就是機制有問題啊你看蘇曉慧 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11136.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11156.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
他跟礦石智能的董事兼營運長按照公職人員你的衝突未必吧他應該要揭露他跟蘇貞昌院長跟蘇巧慧委員的關係嘛那請問礦石智能在申請我們的投資之前他有 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11157.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11173.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
這個議案來揭露這樣的執行啊國發基金對於所有的投資案所秉持的方式都一樣依法行政牽扯到所謂的各執法第14條裡面投資這個這個他要申請投資依照立法才要揭露才要揭露這個叫做各執法本來規定就是揭露 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11187.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11209.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
本來的規則要揭露,你現在一直用各支法好,這個是立眾規定要揭露的,我跟你講這個我們的一個這個立眾主委批凡用揭露的一個部分,你不要跟我講各支法那再來我們來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11210.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11214.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我剛剛有聽我們的一個質詢國會主委剛剛好像有跟我們會員也提到我們公職人員的利益衝突會逼只有在交易或是補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11234.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11243.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
的一個範圍那你剛剛好像講說投資啊不在力衝的一個規範範圍是不是確定你剛剛的文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11244.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11252.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
委員的那個簡報上面就是看不到投資兩個字啊你看不到投資兩個字我現在就拿你的專案報告啊我這個報告是你寫的喔你寫的啊受你申請投資案建議受你申請投資案建議公職人員利益衝突的立法規定代理14條上面也是這樣子寫的 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11269.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11276.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
對啊 投資兩個自由嘛沒有 你有看到流行嗎沒有 利衝法第14條你也沒有看你的報告 還有你的新聞稿依法解容我們要依啊 利衝法的規定啊利衝第14條領域修理申請投資案要依利衝法的規定辦理喔欸 你等下報告對 那利衝法第14條你等下報告吧你自己跟你的報告自己去解釋喔那我在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11298.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11323.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
就跟主委講來交易補助都算投資就不算投資就不算那是不是我們的利寵啊真的就要修法了要把投資再進去啊這符合我們一般的概念嗎我給你補助要利寵嘛我給你交易我要利寵嘛結果我給你投資用人民那些人的錢給你 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11324.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11341.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
投資不用迴避 不用立修法這就是我們國王會諸位自己親口在立法院的執行就沒打了這個部分我們尋審如此我就知道現在行政 蔓延一百行政好好 那在這裡我們民政署在這裡嘛我們法部 要派人嘛法部 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11351.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11363.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
你們就是立中門的主管機關讓我在這裡問你投資啊投資啊是不是我們公職人員利益充足的地方這個適用安危要不要適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11368.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11373.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
國家的資金基金投資給個人或投資給民間要不要立衝法的一個過關範圍確實投資這兩個字沒有在立衝法第14條裡面的文字上面顯示出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11386.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11397.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
所以文字沒有,那你就為這個問題關怎麼解釋?那如果要解釋的話,那我們必須有一個個案的狀況...個案就在這裡啊!剛剛主委一直講,所以我談的就是個案啊!那這個個案咧?因為如果個案的話,這個案子法務部...投資1999萬9千人! |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11410.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11437.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
對 這個案子不是法務部的主管機關啊不是法務部的主管機關我現在問你是依從法咧 是有沒有規範投資 你說文字沒有嗎 是那就整個陽光 剛剛我們徐中興委員的陽光是最好的防護劑那除此又不用算 英明法務部的觀點你也有要回答嗎可能我們要逼到文藝上面來解釋啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11439.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11463.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
所以我們今天就要向社會解釋就一定要有投資的資源就法務部的觀點對不對好法務部的回答我知道那我們一定會提修法我一定會提修法我們台灣中央港版一定會提修法我就把投資加進去讓你有文字可以看 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11466.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11469.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
好 請回座我想我們在當中執行到現在我們大家也都看得到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11479.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11496.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
國防基金用剛好第一攤的一個限制2000萬以下的1999萬9千元來投資一家只有唯一收入來源的一個公司何況這家公司還收入詐騙那卓院長他說投資新創就在投資台灣的國家未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11509.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11526.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
我們看到國安基金國安會也頒了這個案子在做我們的新聞發布新聞的一個說明那我想這到底是陳武卓院長所講的投資國家的未來還是投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11529.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11554.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
賭官啊 你有有 輸家的有未來我想經過這樣的一個執行我們全台灣的人民心中應該有一把子那再來我想說剛剛談的是國大基金有一個部分那經濟部經濟部也有我請經濟部部長好不好主席我請經濟部部長請經濟部工部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11561.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11562.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
我想我們當然想要用國大基金來補助蘇嘉那其實經濟部也有經濟部在2024年到2025年間蘇嘉純他擔任威魯克基旗下這個阿卡索瓦特這個執行長那時候我們看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11591.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11608.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
蘇曉慧還是立委他負責監督我們的經濟部結果我們蘇曉淳的這一家威武科技還是拿到了我們經濟部的補助分別是由中企所補助他的160 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11611.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11612.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
4萬6千元跟商務發足的120萬那這樣的一個補助我們也看到我們經濟部我們有一直在解釋說蘇小純跟威如科技沒有關係但威如科技的結案報告我在簡報上有講 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11635.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11638.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
他自己說為了過去啊就是過去影印啊這個一個所謂的一個影印者那蘇小純喔自己本人喔那接受我們自己經濟部喔商發署的訪談喔自己也說啊他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11657.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11660.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
這個溫暖科技是作為阿卡斯瓦的一個營運者那在這樣的一個過程我們在拿補助的時候都說兩者的關係然後現在我們在質疑我們就來跳脫說兩者之間的沒有關係那我在這邊我也來請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11686.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11707.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
這個經濟部溫柔科技溫柔科技在申請上面的計畫我剛剛講了他兩個計畫的時候他有沒有提供這個公職人員我們這個跟關係的一個身份切入表 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11708.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11720.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
因為報告委員蘇曉筍並不是威如科技的負責人 也不是董事 也不是獨立監察人 也不是經理人 他什麼都不是所以我們今天就要問部長這個問題 這一個部分我們的立法 結構表裡面 剛剛部長有講的嘛 負責人 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11731.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11741.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
對 董事 總理 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11759.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11770.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
我們規範的對價是微乳公司你規範微乳嘛立法的規定就是這樣就跟國會主委講的一樣那我在這邊我還是請教我們的法務部法務部請你再一次的回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11783.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11801.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
剛剛講你從要揭露這個一個部分我們不想講揭露的範圍就是公司的副主任、董事、主任、董事監察人、經理人那我在這邊請教執行長會不會也是要規範的對象你們看嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11802.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11822.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
是兩個獨立的主體,我們規範...我今天不講主體,準確就立從法的結論要點,如果今天不是務責人,不是總事,不是監察人,不是經理人他就是執行長,這個時候是不是我們的立從法結論的對象要結論的對象,我們的規範有理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11826.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11833.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
所以以後就不用執行長就好了我今天不是跟你講微乳公司嗎我現在在跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11837.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11864.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
那個揭露的一個犯規就像有犯規嘛這是就法的觀念來論點啊我今天不跟你講公安跟你講他是跟委員報告如果是董事監察人跟經理人或相類似的職務的話他是應該揭露相類似的職務嘛那執行長應該就是相類似的職務吧如果他的執行長是他那個公司是有來申請補助的那可能就是要揭露 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11865.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
11871.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
那肯定在這裏,好,好,否不正人,我接受,好,請回座。 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
11873.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
11880.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
我今天在談的不是你要講談的是兩個獨立個體但是這兩個獨立個體明明在我們剛剛的說明當中它就是有關係的而且有緊密的關係兩個合作其實是一體的那今天我們至少點出我們的揭露應該有相關的一個這個組成這樣的一個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
11902.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
11915.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
這應該要做結論來 下一個同樣的是我們經濟部我還是回到所知因為我們所知真的還沒到這裡同樣都是跟我們經濟部要的資料來 部長您看我們商業發展署給我的資料是完整的 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
11931.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
11952.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
完整的中小企業中小級新創企業屬他給我的資料全部塗黑同樣的經濟部同樣問的問題都是微乳科技他申請了這個演化計畫或申請專心的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
11955.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
11961.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
同樣的手持 兩個單位的孩子完全不一樣 駁地就被人家說怎麼會這樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
11967.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
11992.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
這個應該是中小中小及新中介所要說明啊為什麼全部土的啊你給我的所是全部土的跟委員報告我們給委員的資料除了一些可能他的學經歷然後還有他過去的經歷等等事項所以重點都是機密全部都是土的所以沒有去識別的提供了 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
11993.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12015.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
所以你就塗黑那從這個表格你就看到了我在這邊我肯定我們的三發署該提供的資料真的就完全提供我給你肯定你們給你肯定我要跟部長講這個是要肯定反而要檢討我們的中小期新創企業數 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12017.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12045.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
同樣的結案報告同樣的結案報告竟然一個部裡面兩個數一個全部揭露公開一個全部除黑好這個就是要讓我們所有的國人來看經濟部就這樣的一個隱秘執行就是這樣的一個作為好我最後還是要問 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12046.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12075.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
我辦公室有所知的資料還要等多久維族科技的部分委員我先跟您說明一下您要的這些計畫書其中期末報告我們都給了但是其中期末報告的附件給的附件啊 重要的資料都沒給啊要跟委員講就是說這些附件可能涉及到一些研發一些機密所以我們可能今天我自始自終有聽到科技法機密所以今天不用給 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12076.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12089.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
所以可以給的就給 不可以給的我通通塗黑 就是這樣嘛好 就算你要塗黑 哪時候要給我們現在那個資料我已經講 就算你要全部塗黑 哪時候要給 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12101.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12121.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
這個你塗黑吧我繼續讓全國人民知道你們給的資料都是塗黑好我OK那時候可以再兩個禮拜好不好還要兩個禮拜全部塗黑全部塗黑還要兩個禮拜那兩個禮拜就是要完整的資料給我不塗黑喔沒有涉及機密我們當然一定都會給啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12124.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12143.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
這個可以做資料而且相關的這個案件是如果我們不涉及營業機密我們要的只是他的一個補助案還有他的一個結案報告我們盡快啊 盡快這結案而已這個叫做營業機密都跟你要錢了你就補助給他了現在要他的結案報告你說這是營業機密你說算過你命太累 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12152.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12173.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
我們審查本來就是公開公平啊我沒有說你們不公開啊對啊對啊所以我們就是依法行政啊好一個禮拜給好不好儘快啦我們儘快還是儘快保證啊還給跟所知啊一個禮拜我要資料好不好好謝謝謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12180.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12199.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
好 謝謝陳建文 謝謝部長和主委往下念之前我還是跟各位說明一下我的資料也都還沒有給18號產發署的無人機的採購作業指引之執行情形還沒給 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12200.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12217.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
然後5月26號國發會投資礦石智能也還沒回覆我的 現在是我的商發署今天早上給密件今天給 我26號要的還好有給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12220.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12249.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
中企署我是沒有發啦因為我想說我們總招都發總招應該比家偉大你也還沒給國發會對不對對美投資融資保證機制也還沒給預算我都很開心的讓你過5月28號要的沒有回覆這個都在這裡然後呢這個你們商單署中企署 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12250.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12272.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
我那時候想說是不是大小眼的6月9號我們總召給的要求的你們6月16號一個禮拜就回了就是他剛剛講的我是去跟他要的商發署中企署的對不對然後你們商發署今天給我的密件資料跟親融總召要的你們回覆的差不多一樣啊奇怪我招委他誰總召好大他6月16號就拿到我今天是7月1號啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12280.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12304.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
我是一個很仁慈的人啊我也沒有像其他招委說我一定咄咄逼人但是你們不要這樣子整我啊當我是塑膠做的然後我這樣我也沒辦法省預算我也沒辦法幹嘛那你們又常常說我們不省預算我就沒有資料要怎麼省我怎麼看說你的執行到底夠不夠這是我擔任招委到現在一直覺得所知很無力 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12308.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12333.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我感覺我是黑名單 我行政院列管欸每個人都跟我回覆說 上在研議中 行政院還沒合我沒幹嘛 我只是要一個資料 確確實實是什麼而已我連這種所知的回覆程序都這麼慢 這是我列出來的拜託我都沒有 我都善待哥 我都跟你就事論事啊另外呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12335.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12356.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
剛剛廉政署回去查一下你們的示函11005-001810號科學技術基本法科研採購促參公共建設法產創之補助產業價新或其他具有對價之交易行為皆列入立法好 那請問我們投資國發會佔股票這有沒有對價 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12362.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12368.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
如果有就示函給人家說有 這列入對價因為國發基金是根據產創條例的第29條而設立的 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12371.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12391.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
那既然產創條例這邊是有的所以這邊就要符合立法如果他釋函還不清楚你就再從這個釋函再往下這樣我們就不用修法節省大家的負擔這是我剛剛想要跟國安會表達的為什麼今天找廉政署來因為你們的回函給我的解釋就是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12392.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12415.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
好 好不好 再去研究一下那如果他們不清楚再給他以上 再來王安祥 王安祥 王安祥委員賴瑞榮 賴瑞榮 賴瑞榮委員馬文君 馬文君 馬文君委員林倩琦 林倩琦 林倩琦委員陳超明 陳超明 陳超明委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12417.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12444.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
好 登記發言的委員除不在場者以外其已經與發言完畢 詢答結束委員傅坤祺 蔡玉瑜 賴瑞榮 張家俊 陳超敏所提書面質詢列入紀錄 刊登公報書面質詢和問及答覆部分請相關單位一周內以書面答覆並複製本會委員另要求期限者從期所定反正所列一程處理完畢謝謝大家 現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12444.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12456.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
那另外再請這個經濟部跟國發會就是那個就是事後那個綠充關稅法的公告把網站什麼的公告去弄出來沒有就是要設計一下 但會違法 好不好 |