| IVOD_ID |
17552 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17552 |
| 日期 |
2026-06-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-22-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
18 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
22 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
教育及文化委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-06-29T08:43:36+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-06-29T13:13:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:29:24 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d26ab4164528b715cc5f849756b6b38b3ed7231b3d2e2f92a656a6142630468825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-06-29T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查教育部函為修正「高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或資遣辦法」部分條文及「公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法」第五條、第六條之一條文案。【本案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】
二、審查
(一) 委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「國民教育法第三條條文修正草案」案。
(二) 委員邱鎮軍等20人擬具「國民教育法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。
(三) 國民黨黨團擬具「國民教育法第三條、第四條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。
(四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國民教育法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。
(五) 委員葉元之等18人擬具「國民教育法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。
(六) 委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「國民教育法第四十四條及第四十八條條文修正草案」案。
(七) 委員徐欣瑩等17人擬具「國民教育法第三條、第四條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。
(八) 委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「國民教育法第四十四條條文修正草案」案。
(九) 委員林倩綺等21人擬具「國民教育法第十三條條文修正草案」案。
(十) 委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「國民教育法第三條、第四條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。
【進行詢答及逐條審查】【6月29日及7月1、2日三天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:43:36 - 13:13:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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by bwd6 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
991.906 |
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好 報告委員會初期委員已足法定人數現在開會首先進行報告事項請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1002.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1026.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
立法院第十一屆第五會期交易及文化委員會第十七次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一五年六月二十四日上午九十一分至下午一十二分地點本案前線樓一零一會議室出席委員陳培玉委員等十三人列席委員鍾嘉斌委員等十人列席人員教育部政務次長張亮萬間率同有關人員主席武昭基委員立法報告事項一 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1027.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1056.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
宣讀上次会议事录决定一事录确定二教育部政务次长张廖万坚列席就校师会议及教师辅导管教制度与儿少相关权益探讨进行专题报告并被质询本次会议由委员陈培宇等17人提出质询均经教育部政务次长张廖万坚及相关人员及其答复说明另由委员傅坤起、徐欣颖、何新淳、黄杰、林倩起提出书面质询决定一 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1057.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1081.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
報告及詢答完畢二對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關建樹與書面答覆宣讀完畢好請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處好沒有議事錄確定是羅思揚委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1087.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1087.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
蜂蜜 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1094.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1117.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
主席我想請教一下我們在今天的討論事項原本有列審查教育部涵為修正高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或之前辦法部分條文以及公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法第五條第六條之一的條文案 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1120.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1132.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我們已經有立案討論我看教育部也準備了報告已經準備好書面報告我想請教我們今天還有辦法討論嗎因為就我所知我們按照我們的議事程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1134.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1147.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
國民黨團我們有提出來就是跟民眾黨團都有簽署不附議同意書但是目前為止民進黨似乎沒有簽署不附議同意書那我想請問今天討論事項會繼續進行下去嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1149.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1178.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
好 跟委員特別報告因為這個我們今天審理的這個相關校士會議辦法那需要獲得三黨的不附議同意書才能夠進行那目前我所得到的資料是只有國民黨跟民眾黨有簽署不附議同意書那民進黨是沒有簽署的所以因為沒有不附議同意書所以我們今天不予審查我跟主席報告這邊要表達強烈的遺憾 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1179.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1204.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
幾天前宜蘭國小的男老師被侵犯本能的自我防衛卻被處分而民進黨的教育部官員在鏡頭前義正直言大喊這不應該處罰可是呢今天到了我們的教育文化委員會真正大家討論修改辦法保護老師連教育部都已經提出了報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1206.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1233.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
結果呢我要請全國的老師看看今天的會議請全國的家長看看今天的會議請全國的學生以及關心教育朋友看看今天的會議民進黨的立委不簽署不附議同意書等於沒收了討論拉下了鐵門讓我們老師們心心念念今天要來進行改革的這個議案被延宕 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1235.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1256.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
這一點我要表達強烈的遺憾我覺得今天不能夠在老師今天受到迫害的時候在鏡頭前說我們力挺老師但是呢到鏡頭後面就用這種不簽署不附議同意書的方式延宕跟沒收討論那我覺得今天不是只有一場會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1257.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1272.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
因為沒收的是全國老師的安全感也是我們孩子的校園安全那這樣的一個沒收等於是告訴全國熱血的老師說體制救不了你遇到危險你自己看著辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1273.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1289.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我這邊還是表達非常強烈的遺憾這等於拜託民進黨放開綁住老師手腳的手讓安心的講堂還給老師也把安全的校園還給孩子最後我還是要再強調一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1290.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1315.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
高教育文化委員會就發現一件讓我覺得蠻不能理解的事情我們討論營養午餐專法 結果民進黨提案 散會動議 沒收討論我們討論幼照法 民進黨也提案 散會動議 要沒收討論我們提案電子禁忌法 結果民進黨也提案 散會動議 要沒收討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1316.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1339.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
事不過三已經三次了今天還要再沒收今天有關於教師今天處遇遇到困難必須改革的這個法案我不知道為什麼要一而再再而三的沒收 以上 謝謝好 我們謝謝盧志強委員我們下一位登記程序發言的委員柯志恩委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1348.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1366.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我想今天我们大家都以为因为可以透过签署不复议案之后呢我们就可以好好来讨论有关于校事会议的种种特别是在我们今天有两个办法我想不管是有关不续聘停聘或资遣的办法或者是成绩考核这个办法 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1367.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1389.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
里面其实有非常多是需要修正的那我想教育部今天也是完全是准备好了来不管是接受我们的质询或者是对于一些办法能够提出教育部的一个解释那我想或许大家认为这应该更早的时间就应该来排审但是无论如何因为我们教委有太多太多的议案了那今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1390.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1415.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我真的很希望虽然是在野党但是我还是很希望诚挚的希望大家签署不复议只有一分钟的时间然后呢大家就可以好好的根据大家老师所关切的这些的问题能够来做出一个希望教育部给我们一个完整的一个说明因为大家所有准备的部分里面有太多太多为什么校师会议为什么里面的一些所谓的官课 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1415.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1445.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
要把它放在校室的里面有太多太多的意见当中可以透过今天的一个会议当中透过询答来把它一一来做一个厘清很多老师都已经等了非常久了所以我想是不是我们朝一可以放下彼此之间的一个旗舰就是签署不复议完之后让我们大家好好讨论把全国教师大家最希望能够透过这两个办法里面的一些的作为的一个厘清好好把它修正完毕 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1445.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1471.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
把它修论完毕我想是所有草野大家都希望的因为我们都承受非常多不管是老师家长校长团体的一个压力如果我们今天可以透过不复书的签不复议的这样的一个签署然后呢让我们可以把这个案子能够好好来做一个讨论然后呢把它送出去我想这对于所有人来说都是非常有利的所以呢还是恳请大家能够让今天的会议 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1472.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1495.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
能夠如期的舉行然後在召委的盤案之下面能夠讓我們好好的討論這兩個辦法然後透過兩個辦法的修正能夠讓全國的老師都能夠有一個更和善友善的一個空間然後讓我們的學習能夠更加的順暢謝謝 以上好 我們是不是先休息五分鐘好 休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1947.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1952.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
好現在開會我們下一位登記程序發言的委員吳麗華委員謝謝主席召委大家早安本席呢針對今天排定審查的國民教育法相關修正草案提出程序發言今天的修法草案呢大家都很明白牽涉甚廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1976.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2004.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
特别是关于国民教育向下延伸这是一个重大的变革这绝对不是单纯在法条上面把义务教育的年龄往下修一个数字而已这个背后会对整个教育体系产生巨大的冲击实际上教育部曾经在113年做过一个国教向下延伸的委托案 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2006.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2022.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這當中提醒我們幾個實務的問題第一個全台各縣市學校空間重新盤點而且需要增建第二個龐大的幼保及國教師資人力的缺口 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2023.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2040.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
第三个填补中央跟地方财政经费的庞大负担第四个公私立幼儿园生态的剧烈改变我们都很清楚国教法是我国国民教育的法律基础 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2041.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2055.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
每一个环节都是牵一发而动全身如果没有周延的配套仓促的通过只会让我们第一线的教育现场会陷入更混乱的局面 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2056.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2074.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
教育政策的推動必須要建立在充分的社會共識跟務實的執行力之上為了要讓法案更加完備避免修法之後因為摯愛難行而引發更大的社會成本跟行政摩擦因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2074.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2092.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
本席在此具體的建議希望今天的會議暫緩進行法案的實質審查我們應該針對這些影響深遠的重大修法議題可以排多場次的公聽會那麼也要 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2092.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2118.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
去邀請地方政府聽取他們的需求跟意見更重要的是第一線教師以及專家學者的意見家長團體代表相關領域我們希望讓各界的利害關係人能夠有充分表達意見跟退化的空間所以呢在這邊希望能夠先釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2119.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2119.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那么在这里呢我们有 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2142.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2156.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
本席林益菁委員 吳佩儀委員 郭育晴委員 陳秀寶委員陳培宇委員 吳思瑤委員在這邊做一個提案那麼希望能夠廣納各方代表意見 原請 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2157.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2174.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
决议今日仅进行询答待举行多场次的公听会以及搜集中央地方教育局处跟各界学者专家意见第一线教师家长的意见之后再行后续立法作为以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2185.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2189.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
好 我們下一位發言委員 林盈瑾委員今天羅昭偉排審國民教育法修正草案要求下修這個義務教育年齡那實際上就是要求國家進一步要把公權力的手伸到幼兒園做更強烈的管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2213.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2230.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
現行是百花齊放的教育方案跟選擇那這樣子一定會受到進一步的限縮我想請教所有的提案委員還有今天急著要排尋答加審查的羅昭偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2232.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2248.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
你們跟廣大的私立幼兒園業者討論過了嗎?跟需要私幼或者甚至於實驗教育服務的家長討論過了嗎?大家都準備好要接受更嚴格的管制嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2249.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2261.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
還是所有的提案委員跟羅昭偉都只是簡單的想到說只要把幼兒園定為義務教育國家就要撒更多的錢來補貼家長跟幼兒園 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2264.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2280.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我想在現行的制度下我們有公幼、私幼、非營利幼兒園、准公幼等等其實選擇非常多樣化那政府在確保大家選擇彈性的同時也盡量要透過各種的補助來減輕家長的負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2284.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2299.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
如果大家覺得這樣還不夠我們當然還可以檢討目前政府對於家長跟孩子的支持系統但是如果一下子就要來重訂國民義務教育的範疇 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2301.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2324.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那而且今天詢答完畢 馬上要審查大家真的覺得合理嗎到底在開什麼玩笑啊醫務教育要不要往下延伸 知識體大那當然可以來研議 也應該要研議可是絕對不是早上詢答 下午審查這樣的敷衍的態度來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2326.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2355.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
大家都知道我們強制性的9年國民義務教育實行幾年了嗎58年啊從1968年到現在即將一甲子好那後來改革的所謂12年國教也是向上延伸而且並不是用強制性的手段跟規範來把高中通通納入義務教育今天周偉隨便排一個法案要來審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2357.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2373.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
就要用幾個小時的時間來推翻大家實踐將近一甲子的體制沒有任何的研究的支持也沒有任何細緻的溝通當然也不管各面向的資源到底有沒有到位我就想問這是在愛護我們的孩子還是純粹要浪費國家的資源陪羅公子 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2382.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2396.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
作秀演戲國民義務教育的興辦跟管理牽涉到教育研究跟實務同時也牽涉到地方自治事項這不是開幾場公聽會講講問題就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2399.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2427.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
要做出這麼巨大的國家教育政策的改革負責任的立委跟行政單位是必須要到各地方去一個個傾聽地方政府跟教育相關主管機關的需求跟意見負責任的立委跟行政單位必須要結合學術圈跟第一線的實務工作者就是這些教師跟教保員去了解到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2428.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2446.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
是不是應該要這樣的國民教育往下延伸的做法那不是說大筆一揮隨便就說幾歲的孩子就可以來強制入學這個對往後十年百年的國家的發展政策會有很大的衝擊跟影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2447.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2473.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
所以今天我具體主張今天的會議就早上詢答就好下午我覺得就不要急著處理讓教育部的官員也各自回到各自的工作崗位跟做實事我想要瞎搞一個推翻一甲子的教育體制如果沒有半點的研究跟實務我覺得根本行不通 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2477.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2500.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
好謝謝林錦委員跟林錦委員特別報告剛剛吳立華委員說剛剛113年就已經有相關的研究報告所以他已經是一甲子就你說的四五十年的事情要解決啊所以開發中的國家連越南泰國菲律賓他們都已經在執行五歲醫務教育了連韓國都2010年都已經開始實施 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2503.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2513.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
通過法令五歲的義務教育所以我們希望能夠跟上所以要討論才能夠配套啊審查就是要討論啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2523.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2545.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
然後剛剛您說高中有一些相關的措施沒有強制那高中可以沒有強制為什麼向下延伸不能夠一起往上他也沒有強制嘛啊所以往下也可以來討論嘛啊你都說別人都不對那又不願意討論我想這個部分只有謾罵是不能夠解決這個長期的問題以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2550.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2561.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
不好意思 因為你點名我 我一定要跟你回報一下下一位吳佩儀委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2576.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2591.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我想這個社會各界大家都很關心學校的老師在校園裡面我們如何有一個好的支持能夠來教學以及管教學生所以有關於這個停聘解聘辦法以及校士會議他應該要如何來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2593.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2619.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
還在什麼樣的程序甚至應該如何的修正其實在上一次的質詢當中我們都有很多的討論我也受到了很多的陳情也不斷的跟教育部持續的在討論跟溝通所以我們的結論就是勢必要修正那麼教育部在今年1月23號的時候其實就已經把這個辦法的修正案當時就已經交付委員會來進行審查了 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2621.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2639.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那麼因為剛剛前面委員提到排案的問題所以我想跟他把這個程序把它說清楚這個辦法一旦赴委來排案審查我們有三個月的這個審查期那這個過程當中我也一直很納悶為什麼交委一直沒有排案來審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2640.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2666.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
甚至排了出國考察 排了其他的法案是覺得其他法案比較優先 比較重要嗎然後呢 上個禮拜 直到這個法案已經快要過期了時間已經快要過期了 在上週才去辦理延長審查所以呢 導致於現在出現這個時間窘迫對不上的問題明明有三個月的排案審查期 卻不排案 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2668.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2697.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
不討論不審查等到時間快要拖過了現在才要大家來幫忙這個我覺得是非常不尊重委員會的議事程序那第二個呢我也想要請這個我們議事組是不是可以來協助說明因為現在要審的這個叫做行政命令這個是辦法那我們立法院委員會其實我們沒有辦法修改我們能做的也許如果我們認為這個辦法不妥當那是不是程序就叫做退回那如果退回的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2699.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2717.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我們的這個提名辦法是不是回到現在醫院教育部這個修正案之前的條件也就是說之前在這個修正案之前我們現在的校生會議是一樣會有另名濫訴沒有輔助人學校沒有拒絕這個修案的這些程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2719.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2741.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
會不會退回到更糟糕的狀況這是我比較擔心的所以這個議事人員現場有沒有人可以說明一下因為這個是行政命令嘛他不是法案如果說我們委員會審查的結論我們是我們結論就是退回嗎如果我們委員會認為這個辦法修正案我們不同意的話我們有辦法直接去修改這個辦法的內容嗎按照我們的議事程序應該是沒有辦法的那退回以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2748.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2760.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我是不同意說因為修正修正我們覺得不夠好我們可以精進可是我們不應該是倒退的狀態我是不同意說好不容易現在我們不准這個匿名濫訴了難道退回到之前繼續可以這樣匿名來檢舉濫訴嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2764.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2792.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
這個會讓現場的狀況更糟糕所以這個拜託一下這個議事程序我們的這個一定要去把它了解清楚我們真的是想要解決問題的話一定要把它了解清楚那第二個是今天在這個議事程序當中也排案了要修這個國民教育法基本上就是說我們的國民教育法把它向下變成五歲也是要強迫入學五歲也是要強迫入學那麼在國民黨版的第28條 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2793.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2796.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
他這個文字是這樣寫5歲之學齡型兒童由戶政機關調查造冊並由鄉鎮區公所通知其入幼兒園也就是說原本在地方政府的這些戶政機關只有6歲兒童要造冊現在5歲開始如果這個法案通過的話也要調查造冊 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2814.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2835.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
那如果通知入學的話這個對象一次全國對象是16萬人那麼這個顯然就會增加很多地方政府的行政業務而且這個不是在教育局而已這是在民政局跟區公所我其實最近有在跟我們區公所同仁在討論這個事情就是說他實際上可行性如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2835.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2853.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
因為我們在這邊立法不是我們自己高興或是我們立一個成果然後覺得說PO一個臉書就可以跟民眾交代他就是簽一法動全身我們在這邊立法會影響到地方政府的業務嗎那到底可不可行然後會造成什麼樣的問題我認為我們都要去把它理清清楚所以這一個案如果真的要來提案討論的話我要求教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2857.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2870.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
你們一定要跟地方政府要來開諮詢會議這不是公平會而已跟地方政府要開諮詢會議因為這牽涉到的甚至是跨局處的不是只有教育局要辦理啊因為你強迫入學要有學區嘛變成以後五歲的大班這個他學區到底畫在哪裡因為目前沒有學區嘛現在學區只畫到小學你幼兒園教育來強迫入學學區到底怎麼畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2883.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2902.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
這個我們光是國小的學區教育局在處理跟民政局在處理的時候地方上都要很多討論常常都有化學區的這些不同的意見要溝通這都要時間絕對不能去倉促做然後第二個是我看邱正軍委員也是國民黨的邱正軍委員版本裡面第48條 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2904.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2915.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
他說要訂定家長跟學校還有社區的合作指引那個立法說明我看了很多次我完全就看不出來所謂的社區你的定義是什麼社區的這個具體的行為的單位是誰啊社區到底是誰是區公所嗎是里辦公處嗎難道還是管委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2924.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2936.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
完全沒有任何具體的說明這個法例下去要怎麼執行地方政府問我們的時候我身為台北市的民意代表在立法院我要怎麼跟我們台北市的這些議員們甚至是我們地方行政單位的同仁他們也在關心立法院修法的狀況他們在問我的時候我都說不出來因為我看不懂你們的立法說明到底在寫什麼東西所以我要拜託一下這個我覺得對 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2950.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2971.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
家長來育兒減輕負擔的支持在前幾次的討論當中應當都很清楚了這是我們跨黨派大家的共識我們都支持甚至像這個育兒津貼我們現在是延伸了反正零到十八歲每個月我們發五千元那這些未來的對家長的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2971.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
2985.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
可不可以提升要不要提升我都支持來討論啊可是我們在提如果你是要法案修法的話本來義務教育是到國小你現在幼稚園大班要納進來強迫入學中班小班不用這個學區的劃分變成大班有學區中班小班沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
2990.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3019.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
這個地方政府到底要怎麼做他們真的問號一堆啊所以拜託一下就是教育部雖然這個法案是立法院提出來但你們有責任嘛跟地方政府要好好來諮詢他們的意見你們要讓立法院知道這個法案到底立下去有沒有人有辦法來執行這今天不只是錢的問題錢都可以討論問題是到底可不可以執行這個我們真的務必請大家負責任的人把它談清楚再來去排法案的審查我覺得這樣才是負責任的做法謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3022.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3032.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
好謝謝胡佩儀委員的發言不好意思因為胡佩儀委員有詢問所以我們還是要回答一下那基本上因為他剛問我問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3035.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3062.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
你叫我回應啊所以基本上武力華委員也是召委他也可以排案消失會議相關辦法所以請不要直接把責任就推給國民黨的我想民進黨不願意排消失會議相關辦法我們負責任我們來排了請不要我們排了結果又說怎麼太慢那你們不排怎麼不說再來我們一直在處理公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3064.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3089.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
還有處理現在等專案報告完成了終於要來審議相關的辦法上個禮拜一我們也看到吳麗華委員排考察考察沒有不對但是為什麼你們也是不願意處理校事會議辦法所以也拜託我們現在現場的委員您不要只是用自己的雙標來否定別人 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3090.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3104.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那剛剛委員也評論了其他立法委員所提案的版本不是說不要提不要去評論嗎所以我希望透過我的發言時間我也要回應所有的委員我們應該重視校事會議現在的一個辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3106.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3134.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
還有一個我要跟大家特別報告黃坤輝基金會已經研究指出校式會議以外的這個題目也就是國民教育向下延伸我們已經講了40年了40年沒有辦法處理國民教育向下延伸到5歲我們每一次都只聞樓梯響不看到整個教育的改革所以看到開發中的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3134.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3146.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
越南菲律賓泰國都已經將國民教育向下延伸到5歲為什麼台灣做不到我們輸這些國家嗎所以今天好好的來討論我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3148.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3173.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
待會就會馬上處理民進黨所提案的要把這一個現階段的我們沒收討論的部分我們待會就會來處理這一個臨時提案也請現場的委員不要離開我們待會要來處理 以上謝謝 謝謝委員我要開始了 委員請不要發言了 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3179.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3197.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那您不是也在拖延到委員的時間嗎委員不要雙標委員您可以拖延主席不能夠回覆答案下一位陳秀寶委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3206.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3223.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
針對本次國民教育法第三條修正草案的法條內容將受國民義務教育的年齡下下延伸到5歲以目前我們所有的教育現場的狀況這條的修正本行是很難認同這個修正內容雖然看似美意 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3223.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3231.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
但是實質是缺乏周延的配套對我國的幼教生態跟財政也會造成很強烈的衝擊首先硬體設備跟私教衝擊是一大隱憂如果我們將五歲納入義務教育全國大約有800所國小必須被迫復設幼兒園這不僅牽涉到各地方政府在學區規劃硬體設備人力問題與執行層面的龐大負擔涉及的面向非常的廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3251.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3257.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
是不是要跟各地方政府進行多次而且縝密的討論絕對不是我們在這裡審法條審過了就可以執行的此外全面公用化也勢必對現在現有的私立幼兒園造成幾乎是毀滅性的產業衝擊而在才化法之後中央政府的預算大幅的分配到地方加上日前審查幼教法幼照法的時候關於補助私幼 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3277.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3287.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
學童每個月學費一萬五千到兩萬的這個條文也才剛保留現在如果將五歲幼兒強行納入義務教育相關的巨額經費又明文規定要中央全數負擔會有重複補助的疑慮而且在人事成本上五歲以前與五歲納入義務教育後教師薪水該如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3301.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3304.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
和公平編列與發放至今沒有這相關的法制配套最後在教育銜接與課綱也會面臨混亂的這個問題醫護教育意味著所有的課綱將由教育部統一編訂然而在納入體制內的統一課綱現場教學該如何銜接許多幼兒在家長他們選擇特色教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3324.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3353.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
他們會選擇有這樣子比如說蒙特蘇利或是華德福這樣的特色教育的學校讓孩子去就讀跟學習一旦到了五歲突然被迫納入這個體制內的同一課綱教學現場該如何調整與銜接眾上所述將醫務教育向下延伸到五歲不管是在財政資資空間教學銜接上都需要跟地方政府有更細緻更嚴謹的溝通所以本席很反對盲目的修法向下延伸 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3354.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3356.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
義務教育的年齡應該要舉行多場的公聽會我們要廣邀教育團體家長團體相關業者我們來廣納彙整多方的意見作為修法的參考千萬不能一意孤行立法院有立法院的職責 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3372.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3386.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
在這個請聽民意以及教學現場的這個狀況如果我們沒有辦法去將多元的意見來納入一旦這樣盲目的修法對整個幼教是一個毀滅性的衝擊 以上好 謝謝下一位郭玉琴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3402.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3430.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
主席各位同仁我想今天委員會我們排審國民教育法多項的一個修正草案首先我要非常的清楚的表達我們的立場我們當然支持政府持續減輕家庭的育兒負擔但是同樣我們在提供更普及更高品質的教保服務的同時當然我們也要跟所有的教育體系跟國際的趨勢來接軌這個是不用有任何的疑問的但是我們今天是要討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3432.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3452.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
這個是不是要支持國民教育向下延伸的一個問題重點是我們有沒有真正理解這個幼教現場他們真實的一個困境還有我們有沒有用了正確的政策的工具如果這個問題是看錯了那麼在好的立法初衷我想這個也可能會得到錯誤的一個結果那 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3456.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3476.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
近幾年來其實我們的政府在推動這個0到6歲國家一起養那我想到114年5歲幼兒入園率已經高達了95.52%這樣子的一個比例那也顯示其實我們台灣已經透過了輔助的一個措施實質已經達成了學前教育的一個普及化 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3477.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3502.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
但也因為這樣我們應該要反過來去思考的是去了解剩餘的5%沒有入學的孩子他們背後真實的一個樣貌而不是硬要通過一部強迫入學的法律然後所有的問題都可以迎刃而解我想這個部分其實大家應該要去好好的省思啦那我再讓大家思考另外一個問題強行將5歲納入義務教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3506.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3534.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
我們真的準備好了嗎我請大家來做一下這樣子以下盤點的結果我們來想想看那根據這個國教署的盤點如果要全面強迫入學我們至少要再增設1431個班級那就像部分委員所提到的還要下修到3歲那更要增加超過14000班我就要問校舍足夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3535.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3551.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
合格的人力在哪裡士林的硬體設施跟廁所這些都準備好了嗎另外更重要的是牽動了中央跟地方教育的教育預算的問題那麼以這一次的提案會 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3552.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3575.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
大幅龐大的財政上的一個支出在目前我們的財政收支劃分法底下我們還需要中央跟地方政府要深度的協調廣泛的討論還有我們要維持財政紀律在這樣子的一個前提下我們現在要強行把這樣子的一個修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3576.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3600.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
現在其實真的不要是所謂的這個強迫 而是我們要的是教學品質的提升才對啊所以我剛剛提到的這些問題 大家有沒有想到這個配套我們到底想過了沒做好了沒 因應了沒 而不是現在用強迫入學的一個方式來進行這樣子的一個下午就要逐條審查那我想今天的這個議程喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3602.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3621.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
還是建議啦我們一定要再多聽聽家長的團體幼教的專家基層的老師還有地方政府跟私幼的業者要廣泛蒐集更多更多的意見也需要教育部來進行更完整的一個研究跟盤點才能夠提出具體的報告而不是倉促的 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3622.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3643.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
在今天先用這樣子的一個所謂的修法然後等一下詢答完之後還要來進行所謂的逐條我想這是根本本末倒置的一件事喔 以上好謝謝國務卿委員我們下一位吳斯亞委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3652.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3678.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
很遺憾又要再一次來進行程序發言我對於羅廷偉召委的排案我們過去都說尊重召委的排案但很抱歉我實在很難尊重羅召委的排案因為羅召委的排案對於法案或預算的輕重緩急優先順序讓人看不懂我也要說我們的召委是有明確的分工的 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3680.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3707.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
羅交委負責的是文化部 運動部 故宮還有另外一個是國科會但是到現在總預算被拖延304天到今天304天預算還沒有審羅警委交委負責的文化部預算還在等運動部的預算還在拖 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3708.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3725.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
文化部的預算第一頁還沒打開運動部的預算第一筆還沒通過我對於羅昭偉一再的不審預算排審法案的思維輕重緩急優先順序我真的很難尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3726.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3743.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
而交委的明確分工教育部門明明是伍麗華交委所負責的但是羅交委一再的搶牌教育部門的相關法案從幼教法從營養午餐法從學代三法到今天的國教法我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3746.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3762.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
為什麼不讓預算好好審查完之後我們羅昭偉要再排您關心的法案我們或許可以接受但是預算不審一再的搶牌其他的議案我真的看不懂您的邏輯而 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3765.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3788.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
您所排審的議案裡頭很多都是涉及對於權力分立原則大廂禁停大廂強害立法片面來增加立委片面透過修法增加政府支出這種違反財政紀律的排案在羅交委的手上一而再再而三 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3789.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3816.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
從您手上排的我們上週的幼教法如果照您搶排的議案一年國庫要增加支出400到800億如果照您所搶排的學貸三法沒有共識之下要強行通過政府一年要增加100到400億的支出如果在沒有共識的營養午餐地方政府各級學校的分工還不夠明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3817.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3845.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
您的排案又會倉促的讓行政部門必須買單一年138億今天的國教法義務教育向下延伸而且強制要求中央政府全買單則又會增加國庫每年至少100億的人士負擔而一次性的支出包括校園的空間硬體一次性的支出至少80億 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3847.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3863.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
所以羅廷偉交委您作為交集委員放著預算擺爛不省然後呢一直來進行這些增加政府預算支出的議案如果總預算沒有通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3864.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3871.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
你一再的要求加碼加碼 要中央買單買單總預算不過 預算在哪裡?國庫有錢能夠動之嗎?所以總整 羅廷偉、焦偉這段時間不審預算排審的各項錢坑肉桶 強制中央買單的預算總額 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3886.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3894.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
至少少則一年738億多則一年國家要債支出1238億財政紀律在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3899.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3919.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
我真的再一次的呼籲跟懇求羅章偉可能會說有有有我文化部運動部禮拜三禮拜四要審了那為什麼拖了這麼久呢今天的時間不應當優先來吧還在等的預算加速的優先的審議嗎最後呢我也呼應幾位委員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3925.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3945.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
主張國教法的修法義務教育向下延伸而且中央強制買單他涉及的法治配套目前沒有師資培育目前不足組織人事目前也付之缺如課綱的制定還需要周延考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3945.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3958.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
以及經費的分攤編列也需要跟各級政府好好的來思量我們需要公聽會我們需要跟各級政府各級學校包括對於第一線承擔教保責任的教保界 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3961.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3981.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
好好的來溝通跟說明切莫為快而快粗糙的審議犧牲的是教育的品質如同今天您另外安排的校式會議我想還是一樣校式會議要改革校式會議要優化這是教育部現在正在進行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3982.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3984.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
我們上一週的公聽會我們看到輕師生的各方意見對於校事會議提供了更多建設性的思維請給教育部充足的時間去對話去溝通去研議必要的配套而不是您倉促的來列案審議這恐怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4005.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4027.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
真的對於校式會議的品質提升可能會招致未見其利先受其害我們希望校式會議的革新要嚴謹要周延請召委履行您應當承擔的職責先審預算要審預算我們真的不能再等 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4033.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4041.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
好謝謝我們無視要委員的發言首先先宣告一下我們程序發言現在截止登記那 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4044.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4070.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
也非常感謝吳思耀委員幫我證明謝謝吳思耀委員他證明了武力華委員是負責教育部的相關預算來審查所以校士會議應該由武力華委員來排案那可是他不排所以我就只好協助處理那怎麼會我們來協助處理排案的時候現在又批評我們擔任召委這樣子的一個動作是不對的所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4071.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4086.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
對於教育部負責預算的召委他沒有關心一樣午餐他沒有關心我們現在的學生免息免學貸利息以及現在國民教育向下延伸這個都是沒有處理那 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4087.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4109.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
也不能夠去阻擋其他的委員甚至是國民黨的召委來做關心我想這個部分還是要拜託吳世耀委員幫我見證謝謝吳世耀委員見證了這一切那也幫我認證我不是負責教育部的預算那可是校事會議我願意承擔責任來幫忙排審 以上我們下一位葉元之委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4123.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4139.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
主席好那個我是非常感謝主席今天有排這個國民教育法因為我自己是有提一個案子那我這個案子是主要是想要解決校園安全能力在校園嚴重不足的問題現在校園安全能力不足是連 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4140.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4159.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
政委紀連城都有發現所以他才說要提一個第五級的保全人員而且要鼓勵退休的軍警來擔任所以像校園安全到底做得好不好其實我是希望校園安全可以入法所以我才有提國民教育法第21條修正案 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4160.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4173.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那很可惜就是我也不知道為什麼這個攸關學校校園安全這樣的法條都不能討論然後民進黨不讓我討論還是民進黨覺得校園安全已經很足夠了然後再來我也是想要解決一個輔導組長 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4176.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4191.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
堅韌的問題因為我們都有發現現在輔導組長很多是由代理老師來擔任那為什麼會由代理老師來擔任呢就是因為很多正式老師都不想要來擔任這個組長的工作但是這個組長的工作又是這麼重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4192.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4213.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那如果說由景大學就沒有教師證的代理老師來擔任的話沒有受過相關訓練那是不是可以足夠面對日益複雜的校園的問題那我也不知道 很可惜國民教育法這麼重要我自己提了那麼攸關校園安全的法案民進黨認為不重要 不能討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4214.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4231.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
然後再來校事會議有關於校事會議的條文剛剛吳思耀委員講說是武力華委員負責那武力華委員我不知道因為這三個月沒有排嘛所以羅廷維就排了這個我不覺得有什麼問題然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4234.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4249.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我覺得剛剛吳佩玉有人講的也沒有錯啦就是說我們先釐清一下今天我們討論這個法 辦法因為它是辦法我們不能針對文字的修訂或者是增刪只能退回或者是通過那 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4250.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4266.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
這個是不是我們到時候退回退回又回到過去就是前一個版本前一個版本可能更糟但是即便是這樣我還是覺得今天很有討論的必要為什麼呢因為教育部即將在七月初的時候又會有新的辦法出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4267.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4290.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那如果今天我們沒有針對過去的辦法做一個討論無論是通過也好或是怎麼樣也好如果沒有討論的話那萬一教育部的新的辦法出來大家要覺得他沒有納入我們的意見或是第一線老師的意見然後我們又只能退回那退回以後呢又回到更早以前的版本所以今天的討論我覺得有必要的地方是在於說透過大家的 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4291.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4304.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
仔細的研究因為尋答只能每一個個別委員去對官員嘛有時候官員回答的問題說不定不是所有的委員他的想法嘛那大家坐下來好好討論把集思廣益把意見給官員讓他在 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4307.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4330.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
增訂新的辦法的時候把大家的意見全部納入然後再送過來然後我們把它通過那比如說代表說新的辦法可以完全符合大家的需要所以今天的討論我認為是硬硬下一個辦法的討論所以是很有必要如果都不討論的話那萬一再一步新的辦法過來我們大家不喜歡又把它退回 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4331.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4349.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那個校士會議的改革就是沒完沒了啦所以我自己覺得啦今天召委排這兩個案子不管是國民教育法也好或者是有關於校士會議的辦法也好實在是有其討論的必要啦所以希望民進黨委員不要沒收我們討論的權利讓我們可以好好的針對這兩個一個法一個辦法來集思廣益謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4362.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4362.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
下一位陳培育委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4373.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4394.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
立法委員有各自的分工跟職責我想要先說剛剛羅昭偉所說的完全不是事實甚至是在造謠校事會議的公聽會校事會議的教育部業務報告全部都是吳立華委員所安排而吳立華委員擔任昭偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4395.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4410.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
所有的预算也都早早就审查完毕因此我要说今天被放到委员会里面谈的校室会议的办法它叫做办法如同刚刚吴佩玉委员说的我们只能全文通过 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4410.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4432.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
或是全文退回如果跟母法有衝突的時候我們才可以根據文字做修正跟教育部討論再說一次把原來隸屬於行政院行政權的辦法拿到立法院來想要做逐字修改這就是標準的立法權侵害行政權 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4433.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4461.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
所以罗廷伟不止吃吴立华委员的豆腐甚至还要做一个侵害行政权的立法委员我要说非常的荒谬接下来看一下今天关于国教法全部都是国民党委员提的修正版本其中的修正版本全部都是要把国教向下延伸大家听起来好像非常的正确但我要提醒大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4461.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4491.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
根据地方制度法我要请所有有提案的国民党委员听好了根据地方制度法第18条第19条还有第70条学前教育各级学校教育的新办还有管理是地方政府的自治事项意思就是说钱要由地方政府出而且要根据自有裁员优先编列预算 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4492.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4514.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
再回来看预算法91条还有财政纪律法第5条如果立法委员的提案自己以为好棒棒的提案第91条里面财政纪律法第5条规定如果各位大立委的提案大幅的增加税出或者是大幅的减少税入应先征询行政院的意见还要指明 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4515.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4533.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
彌補資金的來源必要的時候還要同時提案修正其他法律各位這是主計總署早就告訴各位大立委的但是現在國民黨所有提案的版本裡面就只顧著自己想要把國教向下延伸但我就問 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4535.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4555.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
當你們要把錢給所有的私立藥保機構往下延伸到5歲的時候錢我剛剛已經說了按照地方制度法它必須要地方政府支應但是你們的寫法卻是要中央全部買單那我就問以後中央跟地方怎麼分工你們有去修其他法案了嗎你們跟地方政府討論了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4556.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4582.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那我就問以六都來說台中的盧秀月你準備好了嗎新北的侯友宜你準備好了嗎台北的蔣萬安 桃園的張善政這是六都的部分也就是最多五歲的小孩非六都的部分我也很想問偏鄉的花蓮還有台東南投雲林彰化新竹基隆市苗栗縣請問都準備好了嗎國民黨的立委自己大筆一揮 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4582.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4585.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
这是荒谬至极不读书的立法委员才会提出来的提案以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4617.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4631.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
好現在現有的現在有有那個委員有提案吼吳立華委員等人提案請議事人員先宣讀一下提案案有建議經 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4633.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4656.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
鉴于今日议程审查委员苏清泉等20人拟据国民教育法第三条条文修正草案等相关修正草案包含国民教育向下延伸校长临选委员会组成校园安全及行政监督学生间行动载具等修法内容并涉及重大学制变革地方执行量能学校治理学生权益等议题 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4657.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4684.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
且國民教育署地方政府自治事項也需與地方溝通聽取意見為求立法慎重應依據立法院實權行事法五十四條舉行國民教育法修法公聽會並廣納各方代表意見原件請決議今日僅進行詢答待舉行多場公聽會及中央地方教育局處座談收集意見或再行後續立法作為提案人 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4685.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4704.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
吳立華 陳培宇 吳世堯 林一錦 陳秀寶吳沛毅 郭益晴 宣讀完畢好 針對吳立華委員等人提案請問在場委員有無異議異議好 有異議既有異議那我們就進行表決那採用舉手表決表決前先清點在場出席委員人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4712.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4741.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
好 在場委員出席人數9人不函主席現在開始表決戰爭者請舉手好 戰爭者7位反對者請舉手好 反對者請3位好 更正在場人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4743.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4768.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我們現場在場出席的委員有十位那以上是我們剛剛表決戰爭者多數本案通過本日會議議程是 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4772.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4779.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
審查委員蘇清泉等二十人拟據國民教育法第三條條文修正常案另外教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4780.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4807.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
涵為修正高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘知遣辦法部分條文及公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法第五條第六條之一條文案應無不附議同意書故不予審查首先介紹 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4808.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4836.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
我們在場的委員羅志強委員柯子恩委員吳思耀委員郭玉琴委員吳佩儀委員葉元之委員吳立華委員陳培宇委員林益錦委員陳秀寶委員接著介紹與會的官員教育部政務司長張亮萬堅國民及學生教育署署長彭富元 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4837.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4862.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
法務部參事汪南君內政部護政司檢討視察蘇志萌行政院主席總署公務預算處專門委員邱碧珠接著進行提案說明是否有委員要進行提案說明好 沒有委員要提案說明接著進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4864.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4865.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
請教育部張亮萬間次長來進行報告時間8分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4876.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4896.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生大家好感謝各位委員長期關心國民教育發展今天貴委員會審查國民教育法相關修正草案本部應邀列席得以聆聽各位委員及各界先進的意見自感榮幸那麼本次提案共計有十案那麼涉及學齡前幼兒教育的銜接 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4897.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4914.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
校長遴選、校委員安全與輔導、家長參與及學生行動載具管理等重要議題均與學生權益及學校運作密切關係相關那麼以下請代表本部提出說明那麼敬請各委員指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4915.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4941.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
一有關國民教育向下延伸部分委員提案關心五歲幼兒或三至五歲幼兒能否納入國民教育體系核心的目的在於減輕家長的負擔保障幼兒學習機會本部充分理解也持續朝向擴大公共化教保服務以及提升教保品質的方向來推動目前兩歲到入國小前幼兒之就學事項已於 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4942.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4965.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
幼兒教育及照顧法以及我國少子女化對策計畫中定有相關的措施那麼透過公共化準公共以及就學補助等方式逐步辦理那麼為如果與國民教育法納入5歲或3到5歲幼兒那麼會涉及到學制的定位強迫入學戶籍造冊學區分花 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4966.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4983.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
中央與地方經費的分工以及公私立教保體系銜接等整體制度的問題那麼經初步的評估如果將5歲幼兒納入至少需要再增加1431班如果將3到5歲的幼兒一併納入至少也需要再增加14356班 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4988.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4997.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
並需同步處理學校的空間、教保服務人員、地方政府承擔能力以及私立幼兒園營運的銜接等配套因此本部建議維持現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5000.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5020.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
後續將持續依少子女化對策計畫擴大公共化供應量並配合師生比調整政策優先於供應不足地區增班社員第二有關校長臨選委員會組成部分委員提案希望強化教師端參與校長臨選本部尊重此一方向校長臨選關係到學校的治理 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5023.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5043.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
教师专业的参与以及学生学习环境现行国民教育法已经规定领选会应该要有家长会的代表教师会或教师代表参与并定有比例以及性别的横评需求要求那么目的呢就是在确保家长及教师意见能够进入领选的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5044.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5072.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那麼就實運作而言教師公會成員也可以透過教師代表的機制參與並表達意見本部認為現行的規範已經具有教師參與的基礎原建議維持現行條文未來仍將持續聽取教師團體地方政府以及學校的意見作為後續制度的檢討參考第三有關校園安全規劃輔導以及行政監督的部分委員關心校園安全與學生輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5073.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5093.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
量能本部高度重視校園安全不是增設單一職務就可以完成是需要學務輔導總務導師警政及社政等網絡共同合作從事前的預防風險的辨識事件的處理到後續的輔導建立完整的支持系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5093.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5110.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那麼現行的制度已經要求學校由專責單位或專責人員來推動學生的輔導工作並透過校園安全相關規定以及強化校園防護機制來協助學校建立預防通報處理以及外部的資源流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5111.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5127.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
另外本部從114學年度起推動國民中學增至學務人力計畫並自115學年度起擴大補助完全中學國中部學務人力以充實學務及校安的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5127.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5143.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
那麼基於現行的制度已經具有運作的基礎而且重點是在於持續強化執行的量能本部建議維持現行的條文並將持續協助地方政府及學校來精進支持的措施四 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5144.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5166.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
有關家長參與權以及學生管教權的程序部分委員提案強化家長參與教育事務以及學生管教程序的保障本部認為此一方向與現行的政策目標一致學校教育需要親師合作學生管教以及懲處也應該兼顧教育目的程序保障以及學生的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5167.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5194.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
現行的規範已就重大懲處特殊管教措施以及相關會議的通知學生與家長陳述意見等程序定有規定事務上已經有可依循之基礎至於家長參與教育事務的部分現行的制度已經規範學校公開重要的教育資訊邀請家長參與相關的活動辦理家長真人的研習並建立學校家庭及社區合作的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5195.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5212.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
未来重点应在协助学校落实沟通降低亲师误解并提升家长参与品质因此本部建议维持现行条文后续将持续检视相关规范执行情形协助学校来建立更稳定的亲师合作关系 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5212.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5231.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
第五有關學生攜帶行動載具的部分委員關切學生在校攜帶以及使用行動載具的問題本部理解現場確有管理的需求行動載具已與學生的學習生活以及家庭聯絡密切相關管理上不宜質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5232.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5260.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
只有只用禁止或開放二分法來處理而應該兼顧學生的學習需求身心健康班級秩序家長期待以及學校自治那麼本部也定有高級中等以下學校校園行動載具的使用原則作為學校訂定校內管理規範的依據並要求透過家長教師及學生代表參與之民主程序來共同訂定 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5261.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5275.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
若在於法律中另行徵定管理準則授權仍需要注意到以學生獎程申訴救濟以及學校自治規範之間的銜接因此本部建議維持現行條文最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5277.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5299.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
本部對以上各項提案均在反映委員對學生權益教育品質校園安全以及親師合作的重視對此表達感謝那麼國民教育制度的調整涉及到學生家長教師學校地方政府以及中央財政等多種的面向那麼必須要在 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5301.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5323.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
理想目標以及實務配套之間來取得平衡那麼現階段本部建議維持現行的條文並將持續收集地方政府學校及各級意見滾動檢討相關制度與配套措施讓國民教育在穩健的基礎上持續精進及持續精進與完善那麼以上的報告敬請各位委員會與指導謝謝好謝謝市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5333.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5361.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
新一提出書面報告機關代表除書面外有無口頭補充報告沒有機關代表報告完畢相關書面資料請各位參閱並列入公報記錄現在進行詢答每位出席委員質詢四分鐘必要時延長兩分鐘平常不是也有六分鐘嗎四加二也是六不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5363.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5375.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
如果委員覺得時間需要更長的話作為召委我會尊重基本上都不會站起來列席委員執運時間為4分鐘發言登記時間截止為上午10點半 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5380.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5395.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
委員如果臨時提案請於上午10點半前提出並於法案審查完畢後再行處理處理提案時若提案委員及連署委員均不在場照晚例是不予處理首先請登記的委員羅志強委員發言有請次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5410.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5428.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
市長好電子菸在校園的氾濫急需防治到今年初就不斷提醒教育部電子菸問題應對我覺得太慢力道也不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5429.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5450.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那也在總質詢向卓榮泰院長要求重視但現在教育現場說真的看到令人還是非常憂心那根據報導國教署校園安全通報作業系統的數據顯示學生攜帶或使用電子煙通報案件爆發成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5451.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5458.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
2023年是237件2024年是499件到了2025年飆升至1692件三年暴增7倍那今年截至5月底就已經通報量高達1050件國教署也調查去年 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5475.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5492.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
國中生電子煙使用率為2.1%高中職為5.1%那合計青少年電子煙使用率是3.7%也就是說推估全國有超過4萬名青少年使用電子煙 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5494.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5508.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這是數字面實務面上也不斷出現小學生都集體使用持有電子煙的案例那也根據報導董事基金會煙害防治中心主任林清麗說 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5509.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5532.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
他接獲通報使用電子煙最小的年齡是一名小三學童而且他也說學童使用電子煙通常是一群人那原因是現在電子煙的煙柱十分便宜一根只要四五十元可以吸兩百口如果四個人分擔一個人只需十多塊錢就可以平均吸五十口 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5533.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5557.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
那這顯示一件事情 電子菸的成本更低 製造流通迅速那還有檢測不易及使用方便等特性 讓它更容易侵入校園那還有一點我想也是次長應該會注意到電子菸也是上司菸蛋依託彌子的主要載具連急診室的醫師都分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5557.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5578.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
现在急诊遇到青少年药物毒物中毒正在改变依托米子越来越频繁关键就是电子烟的风行那我想请教教育部依托米子在校园跟学生被发现使用的状况是不是在提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5579.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5595.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
這個現象我們有在宣導也都要入班那為了要提升學校這種藥物濫用或者是電子菸的防治作為我們也是在擬定就是有針對這個特定人員我們尿液篩檢的輔導作業要點召開了四次的研討會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5598.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5622.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那也規定就是將脫衣塊塞納入特定人員的篩檢工具讓學校有更多及時以及輔導介入的方式因為eat or miss是用吸的所以如果那個載具就是那個電子菸的載具有的話很容易就算他不想吸也很容易被這個誤死會造成一些不好的一個影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5623.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5637.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
這部分不但是加強宣導入班宣導而且呢在這個篩檢的方式因為那個揮發的很快你用尿液篩檢可能會來不及所以我們目前呢也跟行政院講說希望能夠修改相關的條例來加強這個篩檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5639.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5659.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我跟次長說教育部當然要提出很多的做法但是現在全國國人最關心的就是我們的做法要有效相信現在整個數據都還在上升當中那我研究校園問題也跟教育部討論過一個數據在全國通報使用依托米子的案量 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5661.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5685.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
113年是40多件114年就已經暴增到200多件115年4月到4月為止也已經有60多件這還只是通報在案的有通報在案的喪屍煙彈對學生的風險絕對比紙上的狀況還要嚴重這點我想要提醒我們的次長教育部這我們非常重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5686.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5711.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那當然問題我覺得看到是很明確在惡化當中我也必須還是要強調教育部很重要但是也已經不只是教育部要面對的問題政府有提出煙害防治法的修法包括提高製造輸入販售電子煙的刑責那要求網路平台配合下架違法資訊新增持有及法的規定這些我都支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5712.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5739.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
但我今天跟教育部著重討論的就是校園內的機制其實剛剛次長有提出了一些教育部最近在校園你剛剛講到有提供所謂的唾液快篩那這個我肯定有提出具體措施那唾液快篩是希望透過現行和現行春輝輔導機制結合那對於過去比較難注意到的伊托米子的現象問題希望能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5740.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5761.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
提早發現及時應對但是唾液快篩目前還是需要修法因為依據各級學校特定人員尿液篩檢及輔導作業要點來做但是其中並沒有規範所謂的唾液快篩我希望教育部要盡快的把修法的配套提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5764.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5781.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
請問唾液快篩預期115年第一學期可以上入這個目標做得到嗎做得到因為我們除了剛才委員關心的非常正確就是我們在115年的6月18號我們也通過了把這個行政院也通過了這個把毒品危害條例的33條跟36條來做修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5784.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5806.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那我們在修正前我們會用簽署同意書的方式讓家長同意讓我們這個推動推快篩的篩檢的替選方案能夠上路也確保學生的學生與家長的知情同意就是說不會因為外界有在懷疑說你這個會違反人權就是說沒有同意強制我們一定會把這個程序做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5806.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5822.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
好 那我看到政委紀連城提出要引入第五級保全嘛陸校查緝毒品這個討論也非常多那我想請這個教育部直接回答你覺得這對於校園防毒有效果嗎那目前研議的階段到什麼地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5822.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5844.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
我想之前在上個禮拜有很多委員也關心我們也看到他是建議沒有強制那對於現行我們學校裡面其實就有很多類似這種也受過一些特殊訓練的包括教官他們離退之後其實也可以再回來擔任校安人員或是擔任這個學務創新人力那目前人力的增補確實會依照 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5846.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5858.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
需求我們會來增加剛才我也報告過從114學年度開始我們對地方的學務人員這個校安人力呢不斷的在這個提供補助那 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5859.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5883.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
以前也沒有加班費 我們從115年開始也變略了可以就這些校園人民的職勤如果涉及到加班的部分 我們也會給他補助就人力上我們會來提供那如果學校有需求 他希望這所謂的第五級保全那行政院的建議呢 也可以來聘任我們在這個經費上 我們也會一樣的來配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5884.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5912.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
我請教育部真的是要全面的跟各部會一起串聯啦是我們不能讓我們的青少年受到電子菸尤其像伊陀米子這些毒品的一個強害那這都是我們國家的未來那問題真的是越來越嚴重啦我覺得政府必須要加把勁謝謝謝謝委員第二個題目我想要請教我們今天審查國民教育法嘛國民黨黨團前天也有提案國民義務教育向下延伸到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5914.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5943.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
五歲那這一題就我所知政府在1984年學制改革方案就已經有提出了將五歲以上兒童納入醫護教育範圍1988年的第六次全國教育會議也倡議國民教育向下延伸一年1993年教育部的幼兒教育十年發展計畫也將幼兒教育納入國民教育列為專案研究項目那1994年舉行的第七次全國教育會議也再次討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5944.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5960.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
幼兒教育納入國民教育體系的問題所以其實這個討論已經討論了40年也是到了要變革的時候那次長你知道有哪些國家十四五歲幼兒教育的義務化呢我想我請那個署長來跟您回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5963.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5983.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
謝謝委員如果我們講是五歲義務化的話像法國英國瑞士等那另外有一種是他不是強迫義務他就在費用那邊免費的也有一些國家OECD也有一些國家所以整體而言委員這一次的提案我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5984.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6001.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
在形式上看到的應該有兩種可能那當然還是要請教各委員有一種可能他是直接現況的連私用那邊也予以免費有一種是在國小公立國小這邊增班社員增班讓他都進到 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6002.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6025.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
國小裡面有兩種取向那目前分析委員的初步的想法如果沒有按學區一定要入學的應該是現在私幼的就地免費如果有學區要入學的應該現在跟國小的公立幼兒園內向下延伸的可能大概有這種兩種可能我幫次長跟署長做一點簡單的國際比較的歸納 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6028.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6046.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那不只國民所得較高的歐美國家他把國民教育向下延伸至五歲連GDP人均所得比台灣低的國家如亞洲的菲律賓、越南、東歐的匈牙利波蘭、南美洲的阿根廷跟秘魯都已經將五歲幼兒納入義務教育的範疇 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6046.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6062.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
那泰國義務教育甚至從4歲開始韓國在2010年通過幼兒教育法實施5歲的義務教育2012年再加碼從3歲實施義務教育可見國教向下延伸是很多國家在做的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6063.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6091.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那上一屆教育文化委員會也提出這項修法那各黨派都有委員支持那個教育向下延伸到五歲我記得市長當時也是立委身份參與嘛那當時的質詢的時候教育部的部長是承諾教育部一年時間進行委託研究那可以進行比較周延的來思考可是已經四年過去了那我想請問教育部研究的結果是如何來我想我再請署長跟您報告對 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6093.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6109.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
好謝謝委員那麼經過我們委託師大最近一次的研究那麼它得出有三種模式一種就剛剛已經跟委員報告就是在國小增加那個幼兒園的學生容量這個大概會差 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6111.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6127.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
一千多班如果連二到四歲也要一起那要差五千多班還有兩種模式這個委員可能也熟知就直接把現在國小六年再向下延一年像國小一樣叫七年要變成七三三這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6128.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6154.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
有一種是就是633但整個往前所以最後一年會提早會比現在提早離開校園大概是這樣基本上有不同的模式這一點我覺得是尊重教育部的一些我們的專業的判斷但是事實上我們還是要注意到其實世界各國都在致力這個普及幼兒教育跟改善幼兒教育品質所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6155.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6173.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
這個義務教育向下延伸到五歲我覺得已經是必須要去來去開始去著力來去推動的那這一點我覺得教育部可能往這個方向繼續努力那最後我還是要表達一下個人的小小的遺憾因為我看今天事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6174.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6194.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
教育部都已經有兩個報告嘛一個是關於校事會議的書面報告已經都做好然後國民教育法這十案的書面報告都做好了但是還是蠻可惜的那今天我們在教育文化委員會我們今天尤其校事會議的這個部分剛前面我聽到很多程序發言我坦白講我有一點感觸啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6195.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6211.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
因為我看到民進黨的立委就說 羅廷偉你這個消失會議相關的辦法你三個月不排 你現在才排 你看來不及他又說這個教文的召委是有分工的教育部的部分是武力華委員來負責的 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6213.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6234.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那我就為我們羅廷惠委員抱屈啊他還是看三個月都沒排辦法他今天排了辦法然後希望我們該開的公聽會也開了該做的討論也討論了那今天我們就能夠想辦法讓這個進程往前再推進嘛所以才今天希望能夠來審查相關的辦法但是很抱歉啊結果呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6236.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6262.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
民進黨立委不簽不附一統一書吧所以我覺得基本上要肯定昭偉啦那不要說今天昭偉是解決問題的人然後結果民進黨說因為你解決問題太慢所以呢我不讓你解決不是這個樣子的吧你們沒有解決然後羅廷偉解決然後你嫌羅廷偉解決的慢所以你決定說你不讓他解決問題我還是呼籲全國教師我們都要來看看今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6264.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6282.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
也很抱歉遺憾 民進黨今天提了第四次的三會動議了連國民教育法 幼兒向下延伸的這麼重要的民生的法案跟上次營養午餐法 跟電子禁忌法 以及跟幼照法一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6284.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6309.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
要頻頻的提出三位動議 我其實說真的 我覺得真的不需要這樣子的我們讓很多法案進到我們實質的討論 實質的審查這樣才是對民生跟教育的負責 以上 謝謝好 謝謝 有請 請回座謝謝羅志強委員的發言下一位柯志恩委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6316.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6341.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我还是要呼应一下刚罗志强委员的一个说法基本上很多人都当过召委召委只是在预算的部分里面可能罗廷伟委员负责了运动部跟文化部但是除了预算之外他要排什么样的专报什么样的专案其实都是召委可以互相不同的部会都可以来 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6341.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6358.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
根据赵伟的需求来做出这样一个决定的那我还是必须要讲真的如果一分钟三分钟可以天的不复议让大家进入这个所有老师都很希望能够达到的这个所谓的校事会议他们不管里面相关的两个办法而且教育部都准备好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6358.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6376.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
还是真的很希望能够来透过这样一个讨论让这件事情赶快让所有的教师来真的是放心好那我们今天来国民教育法我想刚刚已经非常多人已经把过去的历史重复过一遍不管蓝绿遇到这件事情能够增加我们的国民义务教育没有人不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6377.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6394.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
而且你看过去来说其实从贬政府开始就有了而且他还预定94年实施只是当初的这个黄荣春教育部长因为卡在私资跟教育经费的问题然后就喊卡马英九政府时代也列为政界但是呢我们的那时候的教育部长把他改成 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6395.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6421.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
補助五歲入學然後以十二年國教為優先然後呢2019不管韓國瑜張善政都列為政界那蔡政府的時候呢其實我們很多攔委提案但是因為缺乏共識那教育部就是提供就是一年提出評估然後2023年再來一次但是沒有沒有這樣一個共識嘛那我想張瞭委員自己也是當初的一個所謂的立委你還記得你當初所講的話嗎你現在有秀出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6425.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6444.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
恭喜你的回憶喔其實大家都知道這不是錢的問題是整個配套的問題喔我只是認為說配套的問題當初若從經費從馬政府的這個4千多億到9千多億喔如果錢不是主力的話那真正的難題你剛已經在你的報告當中有提到的包括這個必須要增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6446.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6473.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
1431班而且空间教保员师资都不足这是我所提出来的但是既然知道这些是个问题然后蓝绿都很希望能够向下延伸显然这样的报告其实不够的精准跟说服力更够然后这些都是实情所以我们还是希望能够提到更精准所以我那时候教育部的次长蔡清华曾经说过要提出一份评估报告刚刚苏长也特别讲了跟台师大做出这样的部分所以显然评估过来 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6475.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6496.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
可行度很低是吗如果这些问题然后这些问题基本上在短期就没有办法回应嘛这个问题还是指纹楼梯响嘛所以很显然就宣告这个部分里面再开多少的公听会而且最主要是你如果要回归到地方的财源来支付的话那它让的可行度更低了嘛不是吗你们现在教育部可以大胆的来预估嘛有可能吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6497.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6516.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
開幾場公聽會迎合這個中央地方的協助這個部分往下到五歲就可以有機會我只提到有機會如果不行的話就先要告訴大家嘛主要是當時的評估因為這樣子所以後來我們的這個那個要降低少數立法政策或者是那個公共化幼兒園的提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6516.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6543.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
其實就是在減輕家長的負擔所以你們目前來說其實五歲向下延伸到五歲是 所以你們現在的部分裡面如果認為說完全不可及你們大膽的可以在你們報告當中把所有的數字弄出來因為義務教育跟所謂的給予補助是完全不一樣的事情嘛義務教育跟給予補助是完全不同的事情所以這個部分你要先把它講清楚那個研究報告裡面也是寫到因為台灣的這個情況 現在的情況所以他們比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6543.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6564.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
那你如果說想5歲納入國民醫務教育的話你中央跟地方總計要暴增多少常態式人事跟營運預算有沒有算過來100億左右我們請那個詳細數字請書長要給我們詳細數字你們的報告裡面都沒有啊所以我們很難評估啊是然後需要多少合格的資資這才是最基本的問題嘛對 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6566.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6583.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
委員如果說 直接是放五歲讓他補到滿 讓他一千多班我知道 這個是說人事的經費嘛對 我先跟委員報告 因為這個會涉及到我們的涉算嘛那如果說 現在你放進去之後 還要把二到四歲的也變成是政府一起來出的話 這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6585.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6603.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
拿走以後政府租到大概五千多班這樣整個加起來設備要八十億人事費額後一定的 尋常的一百億一百億嘛 每年一百億嘛那八十億嘛 你就把它講清楚然後呢 你看現在的公立幼稚園大班至少要一師通常是一位幼教師 一位教保員 沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6604.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6626.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
然后呢或是两位都是幼教师那私幼的话可能要聘一个所谓的要聘一个幼教师都很困难那你如果说要全部国民医务教育的话你如何而且现在私立跟总工幼通常都是教保员那你如果变成医务教育的话你势必要把这教保员的这个资格往上的提升甚至全部都要变成幼师那你这个部分里面 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6627.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6655.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
也不是要把它考量进去所以你给我们的报告当中当你提到有一些的难处的时候你必须要把这些全部呈现出来而且你看你有没有把握要求去如果都要变成两室的话你有没有把握是要如何如果你要让这个教保员就地合法的话那直接转为义务教育的这些老师的话那现行的中小学老师恐怕也有一些的意见考了老半天就他们就地合法然后都费区有经费有学生 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6655.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6673.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
但是没有教室你们要考虑到教室的问题你们如果说义务教育的核心是在学区制还有就近入学但是政府有义务确保每一位五岁的孩子都可以就近入学你现在教室的供需怎么来这些部分你都要把考量进去对不对 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6674.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6696.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
然后你现在若非营务幼儿园年年抽签都到报现在呢学校的空间早就饱和了根本就没有多一个教室可以扩充给五岁的幼儿这些都必须要反映在你们所听到的难处嘛这个细致度才可以让大家真正来好好的讨论否则开了多少公厅会到时候你们两所一会起疏我刚刚所解的问题无解的话你根本所有的讨论都是无解嘛不是吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6698.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6717.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
我想委員提的這個就是我們現在碰到目前最大的困難所以你就明顯地告訴我們都會區的這個教室確實都飽和我們現在要增幣也沒辦法所以後來我們走的是補貼政策目前盡量就是說你的補貼還是跟我的醫務教育不一樣所以我們今天不需要討論醫務教育所以說次長跟署長既然我們從貶政府時代就開始討論這個問題到現在已經這麼久了你就如實地告訴大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6725.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6752.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
这些东西把它调列出来经费学区教保人员如何就地合法化如果可以的话还有再挤压到二岁到四岁还有我们刚刚大家所有的委员都提到的有蒙特梭利的体制有不同的一个体制你现在全部逼义务教育之后是否每一个都要变成标准化那这个部分你要试试我们未来的教育政策这些部分在你的报告当中其实你的报告写的太简略其实我也很清楚了对 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6753.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6771.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
你必须要把这些全部调列完之后然后呢公听会的时候是根据这些问题一一来做讨论如果没有办法解决那我们就宣布这段部分里面这个完全就在未来十年就不可能嘛否则我们拿这个东西出来永远都是听到楼梯响人都还没看到那这个怎么办 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6771.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6788.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
未來公聽會的話我們會準備這些資料就是說當年其實在那個12年說要變國教的時候那往上延伸也遇到類似的問題所以後來是變成免學費政策那現在往下我們也會碰到同樣的問題所以這個往下延伸的部分是不是要也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6789.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6809.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
是但是我还实质提醒啊网上的部分里面已经看到了一个成果网下如果从现在开始讨论然后更具体的大家都已经很清楚知道了问题所在你们根据这问题所在还有包括裁员的部分对我个人来说如果能把这些裁员全部诉诉给地方政府那对不起这个部分里面你会造成更多更多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6809.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6835.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
我想委員的建議非常好我們將來公聽會的話會把這些資料詳細提供包括財政的問題包括那個要增班空間的問題包括教保人員服務的問題人力的問題等等我們會做一個資料的那個會診資料的會診然後最後告訴我們教育部站在你們這樣子專業的會診之後你們的意向到底在哪裡如果我們要全面的實施我們找裁員我們來說法如果你認為以台灣目前的狀況還沒有辦法你就 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6837.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6862.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
直接告知嘛否則卡在這個地方從扁政府到現在這麼久的時間我們現在就朝向我們每個人都在這邊討論這個問題對像委員關心的家長關心的是免就是說減輕負擔所以我們其實目前這個公共化幼兒園的政策呢其實也是朝向這個方向那五歲的部分或者兩歲到四歲的部分怎麼樣具體來落實再減輕從過去的現在321給我們一個更完整的評估可以我們可以評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6862.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6886.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
次长开始做要给我们一年内提出评估可是那个评估已经是研究的方法现在我们就具体提出了每一项非常务实性特别是裁员的问题这个部分你要精准的然后回忆我们才有办法看这样的部分有没有办法继续下去否则永远在补助跟义务教育这两者之间互相摆挡这对我们的讨论是一点意义都没有的好吧好谢谢委员谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6891.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6919.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
好 謝謝柯市仁委員下一位林益謹委員謝主席 有請次長不好意思 在林益謹委員質詢前先做一個宣告今天有臨時提案 疑案稍後與吳佩奕委員質詢完以後我們來進行處理請林益謹委員繼續好委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6920.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6949.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
今天排審那個國民教育法那當然主要就是要把國民教育下修到五歲那本席有幾點的疑問首先強制入學的年齡如果下延伸到五歲那對於一個人的成長是好事還是壞事這個要評估嘛目前多數亞洲的國家像日本、韓國、西班牙、義大利跟台灣我們都是六歲那部分國家像英國、荷蘭是五歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6950.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6972.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
那可是像北歐國家大部分是從7歲才開始那我是擔心說如果強制入學從5歲開始那我們是否會把這種學科導向因為我們台灣甚至亞洲國家是比較這樣學科導向或者用功利性的評量這種壓力會向下延伸到幼兒園的學童 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6973.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6997.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
孩子的這個成長是好是壞這也可以要評估那我們解釋一下像北歐國家像芬蘭這個愛沙尼亞他們國民教育是七歲才開始可是他們的國際學生的能力平衡排名並沒有比較後面甚至很前面那像愛沙尼亞的數學閱讀科學指標是歐洲第一那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6998.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7027.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我就要請教說教育部是否有盤點我們世界各國的國民教育年齡跟他的基礎教育品質的相關性分析啦就小朋友的頭腦啦肌肉啊這個心智發展到底到幾歲才足以承擔這種學習競爭的壓力那這需要這個教育專家學者提供更多面向的意見所以我剛剛提到的疑慮次長你說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7028.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7047.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我想委員關心的這個面向其實就是在反映說其實每一個國家他要把義務教育設在哪一個年齡層幾乎都要經過很細緻的評估那像以台灣那麼重視學科學習的情況下是不是適宜直接降到六歲以下這確實是一個觀察的面向 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7048.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7074.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那以台灣的學界現在主流意見那個上次113年的評估我看到是他們並不那麼主張就是一定要往下延伸那目前現階段我剛才提過說家長他最大的壓力是在育兒的這種經濟壓力所以過去從105學年度開始我們2歲到6歲的入園率也從當時大概只有60%60幾%左右已經平均已經提升到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7075.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7095.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
已經85%左右那兩歲的入園率也從十幾%變成現在大概在64%左右所以然後那個負擔我們也只要加入這個準公共化或公共化或公托我們就一個三二一每個月負擔不超過三千、兩千、一千等等那第二胎還有增加補助那中低收入戶是完全幾乎免費 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7097.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7119.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
所以我們的政策是在減輕家庭的負擔那至於這種很學術性的評估的醫護教育其實過去台灣也嘗試推展12年國教也同樣面臨有一些公私立學校目前的狀況還有高中子有一些技術型高中學術型高中普通高中不太一樣那怎麼樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7120.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7141.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
往上延伸也是在講減輕負擔所以現在的高中它不是醫務教育但是它還是叫免學費教育所以目前台灣從105學年度開始我們推的育兒政策就是盡量就是減輕家裡的負擔然後從公共化的供應量公共不足的空間不足的我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7142.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7165.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
讓這個非營利幼兒園興建然後讓這個私立幼兒園加入我們的準公共的機制加入的部分這些公共化的整個評價教保的供應量也達到了52萬所以這個是能夠有效的快速的降低家長的負擔那這部分的需求可能比較如果說是五歲硬一定要變成義務教育完全免學費的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7166.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7188.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
這個可能我們必須要去做一個評估啦就是說剛才那個委員也有提到很多問題包括教室的問題人力不足的問題等等還有就是整個經費負擔還有就是我們現在大量私立托兒所他說要馬上急速退場整個市場變化會很大所以這個部分什麼樣子的一個政策比較適合台灣目前看起來看起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7189.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7217.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
似乎是以減輕家庭負擔增加公共化的這個又平價教保的名額是優先來處理的對啊如果我們要把國民義務教育的年齡往下延伸喔那真的會有利於家長對孩子做出正確的教育選擇嗎就是說我們實際上好像是把家長原本的那種選擇彈性給綁住了因為這點我們要想清楚我們有義務要跟全國的家長說清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7218.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7234.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
一部分提案委員他可能為了要追求更平價的幼兒園這個目標也誠如剛剛次長所說的國家現在請權力也在追求這個目標那所以我們現在好像感覺弄個修法那直接規定幼兒園就是義務教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7235.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7250.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
那他們是想說這樣有比較強的國家的義務那可以讓所有人都可以用更低的價格來享受幼兒園的教育服務那可是如果純粹從權力的層面來考量這是從權力的層面來考量可是如果牽涉到義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7254.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7279.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那恐怕我們到時候連幼兒園的師生筆啦這個幼兒園的教學內容啦甚至幼兒園的營業時間這都要來有統一的方向欸你到時候不可能義務教育然後每個幼兒園的這個規定不一樣那國民教育法第五條提到說國民教育以政府辦理為原則所以政府本來就有責任來確定普及性跟公平性 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7279.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7299.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那公共幼兒園它會需要大量增加那目前公共幼兒園它的量能是足以讓每個五歲的兒童都入學嗎這是一個疑問嘛如果說我們現在所謂的大班要變成義務教育的話那幼兒園的師資的定位師資跟他的資格認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7301.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7328.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那那個要怎麼調整這也是很實際的問題嘛而且現在每一類的幼兒園他的上下學的時間不同喔你說公立幼兒園我們是跟附幼大約是4點當然現在我們有延長性的這個輔導那非營利跟准公幼大約5點那私立的學校大約是5點到6點那如果要調整的話那是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7330.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7350.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我就說舉例啊 如果說現在大班變成是義務教育那我們就會統一放學嘛 跟國小可能一樣吧那變成大班先放學 然後中班小班晚一點放學市委也觀察到一個現象 就是說有些學校它有空間 它不是只有收五歲 它可以收二到四歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7351.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7369.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那現在如果一律都規定全部延伸到5歲的時候他可能有些學校他的2到4歲的收託會受到影響然後另外呢有的這個那個5歲的專班他可能沒有人那這個目前其實以台灣目前我們在105學年度之後推 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7370.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7399.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
基於這個少子女化對策那個提出那個計畫之後其實就是一直在持續擴大公共化的這個供應量那現在也都還推到只要是公共化的幼兒園也都事實上比較降到1比12我們在115學年度就已經都完成那所以這個部分我們還是要跟大院報告就是說其實5歲的入園率在我們的努力下從105年到現在不管是公共化幼兒園平價教保的提供名額提供擴大 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7400.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7416.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
補助 目前的這個入園率已經90多%了 95 96%了 所以是相當高的那這部分如果將來我們有在政府的財力各方面都營運之下 我們穩健的來推動減輕家長負擔 甚至5歲的部分能夠免費 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7418.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7441.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
目前那個賴總統也宣布到明年1月1號開始他還會外加5000那如果以我們現在看的我們只要是念這個公共化的那個平價教保的幼兒園就算你只有剩一個在私立的准公幼的機制裡面一個月負擔3000那以後那個明年開始賴總統宣布再外加5000其實他是等於是不用負擔的所以這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7441.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7468.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我們是在過去大概這個我們在講那個國教向下延伸的同時我們其實也有其他的方式在降薪減低家庭的負擔也是在朝這個方面在規劃好那所以剛剛次長的重點就是說我們怎麼提升現在的公共化的服務量能嘛讓這個現在的公共化的幼兒園的服務更符合家長的需求我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7468.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7481.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
就是我們現在要努力的目標嘛而不是說硬性把這個義務教育延伸到5歲好 那我想請教說我們現在公共幼兒園我們前年起有開始試辦臨時照顧的服務那查看2025年的那個學年辦理的狀況其實全台灣也只有10個縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7488.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7506.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
然後總共有61間幼兒園有提供服務那如果家長如果有臨時性的原因然後沒有辦法來照顧孩子那他就沒有辦法獲得育兒的協助所以想要請教一下說我們這三年來事辦這樣的零拖照顧的服務到底狀況怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7507.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7515.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
那是需求量少還是說原所很難提供相關的服務那我國這個燒紙化的對策計畫2.0當中有提到有必要持續來輔導地方政府來積極擴充服務據點的量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7523.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7533.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那這部分教育部要怎麼樣輔導這部分就是現在正在推動那因為過去事辦事辦就是想要發現去瞭解說地方到底是什麼情況它的那個事辦的量能夠不夠是人力的問題經費的問題場所的問題還是家長的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7538.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7558.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
學校問題我們都在盤點那如果委員希望更詳細的資料我們會提供但這確實是我們希望能夠來推動減輕因為有的家長他上班的關係時間無法銜接他確實有零拖的需求或者說他真的會有一些特殊的狀況需要可是這個部分因為我們在事辦裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7561.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7584.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
各個這個幼兒園公立幼兒園他有沒有辦法有這樣的人力有空間這都是一個問題所以我們從示範中會去了解這個問題然後來強化這個問題的解決讓這個供應量量能夠擴大好那你這個盤點的相關這個書面資料再送給我們委員會我們把這個先是現在已經示範遇到的問題目前盤點出來的問題好我們再給委員好謝謝謝謝次長謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7590.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7606.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
好謝謝委員的詢答謝謝請坐下一位有請陳秀寶委員謝主席請張亮次長有請次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7613.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7628.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
委員好市長好在我質詢之前我要先說明剛才民進黨委員所提的案子我們沒有提散會動議並沒有不是像羅廷維委員說的那樣我們提的提案內容剛才議事人員有宣讀主要是因為國民教育法第3條條文修正案相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7630.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7649.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
不管我們地方的意見都沒有聽取相關的團體的意見沒有聽取所以我們建請決議今天緊進尋答待舉行多場公聽會及中央地方教育局處有座談收集意見或再行後續立法作為我們並沒有提散會好 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7651.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7671.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
市長今天排審的這一個剛才其實很多委員都有表達意見那研議將五歲的幼兒納入義務教育這個政策的提出其實出發點是良善的也確實是體現了想減輕家長負擔而且要落實教育公平的這個立場但是也正是因為這一項攸關下一代發展的重大轉變我們更應該秉持謹慎的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7674.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7700.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
那要確保各項配套措施是完全到位才能讓這個美意是真正的落實喔所以在這個部分呢本期有提了五個務實的面向來觀察希望說能夠有更周延的考量第一個部分呢是我們銷售硬體與產業的衝擊那我們全台目前有800所國小沒有附設幼兒園如果說我們要直接把五歲延伸成為教育義務教育的一部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7700.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7711.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那地方學校的這個空間跟硬體設備在短時間我們又沒有辦法跟著上此外呢這個對私立幼兒園也會帶來實體的衝擊實質的衝擊那教育部這邊是不是應該更廣泛的收集意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7715.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7744.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
對我想委員提供這幾個面向都是非常務實而且非常專業的一個角度所以我們也其實也之前都大概都有了解這個狀況所以我剛才也提到說我們後來那個配合掃除立法退市政策我們提供的是公共化評價教保的名額能夠擴大我們後來是朝向這個方向來走那確實也這樣子從兩歲的入園率到五歲的入園率都在迅速的在增加在提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7745.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7752.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我先把我這邊質詢的部分先說明第二個部分就是財政規劃跟產業的衝擊目前我們日前我們有審查幼照法那個時候當時有在討論說幼教學童私校的這個每月要補助學費1.5萬到2萬這個條文那個時候是保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7766.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7784.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那如果現在又將五歲的幼兒強行納入義務教育就變成說是這個相關的巨額經費又被明文的規定在中央要負擔也會有重複補助的這樣的疑慮特別是隨著才化法修正其實中央政府將大幅的預算都已經分配到地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7784.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7803.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
如果只把這個財政財務的壓力放到中央其實這個整個財務的權責分劃分是不夠周延的而且更重要的這種全面公用化的政策呢也會對現在的這個私立幼兒園造成很大的產業衝擊那在缺乏轉型配套之前我們也應該更審慎的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7805.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7835.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
第三个部分是特色教育的衔接适应五岁前的幼儿许多家长他们会选择让孩子就读像蒙特梭利华德福这样子多元特色的教育如果五岁的孩子纳入义务教育就等于这是五岁要提早全面适用教育部统一编定的课纲这样子的一个学制制度的转换之下孩子们课程的衔接跟适应问题也应该被优先纳入考量第四个部分是地方政府的执行困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7836.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7851.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
義務教育牽涉到嚴格的學區劃分以及校舍的擴建及實務的執行那目前教育部跟各地方政府之間似乎好像還沒有討論到這麼實質很精細那在基層的執行上是不是也會面臨實質上推動的困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7853.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7873.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
第五個部分是教保人員的薪資體制五歲前跟五歲納入義務教育之後幼教師的薪水要如何公平發放如果處理不當就會變成幼兒園的教師會有同源不同酬的現象五歲的教師領的是國教體系的薪水 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7874.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7898.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
五歲以下的孩子領的是幼兒園的薪水變成是同源不同酬那這樣子對幼兒園的行政負擔及人事的矛盾也會加劇以上這樣子相關的不管是學區發奔財政負擔課綱銜的銜接以及私資權益這個核心問題如果沒有溝通得很清楚沒有統整出完整的意見那 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7899.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7913.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
我們貿然的修法其實是很不負責任的所以說一定要先辦公聽會廣納各方專家的意見包括地方政府及團體的意見那有完整的配套我們再來處理這樣才是負責任的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7914.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7938.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
市長覺得呢?委員剛才提出的這些考慮、關照點都非常專業我們在大院的委員會修的幼照法裡面都要施幼那個其實如果補助1.5萬的話那其實整年度就要增加大概400億那這個補助的意旨跟我們現在向下延伸可能又有衝突,這個政策又有衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7938.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7959.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
然後這又會衝擊到整個目前的幼教體系包括公跟幼的生態體系所以還有包括整個師資的問題等等所以我想這個教育真的是百年大計我們在做一些很重大的政策變革之前我們不但是做過研究其實剛才很多人也提過那個嚴格那嚴格這麼久為什麼台灣沒有走向往下延伸 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7960.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
7977.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
五歲的這個國民義務教育一定是有他的現實的考慮或者是目前的制度上的一些障礙或者說有一些特別的問題他必須要解決現實包括我們講的都會區的硬體他真的就是不夠然後他目前在比較這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
7978.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
7999.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
人不是非都會區他或許他還有能力做但是那個經費的負擔又是一個很重大的問題私資的負擔又是一個很重大的問題還有就是剛才委員也關照到我們五歲是不是也要訂課綱那過早的把他納入課綱會不會又造成以台灣的目前的中式學科學習的情況下會對孩子的學習是不是有利這個都是需要去做專業評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8000.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8023.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
其實所以說到來就是需要更細緻的討論我必須要把每一個層面所影響到的都很具體的去討論之後有交集有共識所以在這個困難跟這個現實點沒有辦法去改變之前我們在105學年度開始2016年開始就是因應配合著少數運化對策以減輕家長負擔為主所以我們的評價 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8025.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8034.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
教保的公民名額不管是公共幼兒園或者是準公共化的機制我們就是已經從過去提供的非常少現在已經提供到52萬名額 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8035.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8059.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
其實次長您表達的意思也是說對於幼兒教育我們下下延伸我們並不是在反對的立場可是需要更具體的討論更詳細的討論符合台灣目前比較需要的一個狀況可能家長負擔減輕然後要提升公共的我們才會在我們的動議上面我們會說應該要舉辦多場的公聽會廣納各方的意見好接下來我想跟次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8060.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8085.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
討論關於品德表現的部分是不是應該納入入學標準這個部分的大家的意見近日有一個報導說準碩士生在宿舍內以不妥當的方式才能對待動物那這個事件引發社會輿論就是對於高材生缺乏同理心這個疑慮也讓很多的家長民眾開始反思我們現行的教育體制 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8086.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8109.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
我們的高等教育長期以來在學術研究及專業知識上培養出很多優秀的人才但是當看到有這麼高的學術成就的學生在對待生命的尊重跟基本的同理上有落差的時候我們是不是也應該停下腳步來思考是不是在高教體制要不要針對學生的品德表現建立起一定程度的把關 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8109.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8126.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
例如像韓國他們將霸凌基督捏入這個招生審查對於校園暴力做出實質不容忍這個是對品德教育的重視還有呢我們是不是應該有適當的引導機制這位學生他從原來的學校畢業之後他其實他有考取多個學校那當他 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8127.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8141.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
選擇其中的學校繼續在學習的時候這個學校會不會針對他這個行為會有延續的追蹤或輔導所以這個教育的初衷其實不僅只是傳授專業也是人格 品格這個行術 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8142.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8168.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
那本期希望說教育部你們能夠跟大專院校共同來演繹如果在不違反多元發展的這個原則的這個前提之下呢將品德教育跟同理心培養能夠更深入的這個融入高教環境跟入學考量中因為我們的下一代不僅應該要有卓越的競爭力其實也希望他們都能是成為溫暖能夠懂得真正尊重生命的成熟的公民 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8168.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8192.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
對 我想委員的建議非常好 最近當然也有一些呼聲希望把這個品德的表現列為入學的標準這個我們也收到這樣的意見 未來也會審慎來評估那評估因為如果按照目前的那個現行體制大學法裡面其實已經有相關的規定就是說我們對於它有一些講成辦法等等 這些將來在 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8193.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8217.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
升學的時候要不要列為這個他的入學的申請的標準這個我們會來謹慎評估啦因為這涉及到客觀性啦公平性還有個資的問題還有學生學習的這種受教權的很多面向的考慮不過就是說委員也提到說有些國家已經把它列入了所以我們也會來做這個評估其實是不是列入入學的這個標準這是做法這是在做法上 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8217.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8246.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
但是對於學生他們在品德教育上在同理心在對於他人或是對待動物有這樣子的偏差的行為的時候我們就是要去思考我們在教育上是不是有什麼不足夠的地方我們應該去補足他這個是在教育上的補足跟我們是不是列入入學標準這個實質上的做法其實我們要分多面的去思考好那這個部分我也希望說針對這個部分你們所做的一些相關的評估你能夠給我一份報告好 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8247.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8272.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
好好 我們再提供給委員好 謝謝次長 謝謝主席好 謝謝等一下 還要用電腦好下一位陳佩玉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8278.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8280.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
好謝謝主席呢有請次長有請次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8284.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8309.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
好 委員好好 次長您辛苦了我想我還是回來跟您討論校事會議的部分一剛開始我想我們還是要肯定教育部從第一時間知道校事會議有很多爛速的問題然後我們就做了積極的改革那在今年的一月份做出修正而且我看到數字也確實有往下降但是我想現場的老師所累積多年的一些情緒還是必須要有出口 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8309.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8336.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
所以之前我们来回溯一下因为今天有非常多委员的提案或者是现在有一些老师在说是不是干脆就把校事会议废除我要说这件事情其实有一个很大的问题当年是在108年我们修了教师法还有109年修了解评办法的制定当时我还不是立法委员但是当时次长你已经是立法委员而且在教育文化委员会可不可以请次长说明一下当时修法的脉络到底是什么 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8336.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8355.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
我想當時就是因為大概在一百零八零九年間一零七年大概發生很多類似的比較重大的額虐事件那當時檢視的那個制度大概很多專家學的意見是認為說原來的這個用教平會來決定會有所謂的私私相互的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8356.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8370.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
所以當時在教授法裡面的第29條是不是我們就把他納入這個那個把老師的那個解聘跟不續聘的辦那個那個把他入法希望能夠訂定一個能夠讓外界比較幸福的一個制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8371.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8392.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
大概是這樣來當然當年的立法其實也引發了非常多的包括教師團體的陳情那家長團體的陳情在這過程裡面我們也去折衝那希望能夠有比較大家可以接受的方式所以是在那樣的一個背景裡面我們完成2019年完成修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8392.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8408.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
是 我覺得次長講得很正確當時我們確實是為了解決一些問題所以我們去處理了這個修法可是當這個修法一出來確實不同利益團體的人都會有自己的聲音包含你剛剛說的家長團體 教師團體甚至現在兒少表藝圈很多青年團體也會站出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8408.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8424.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
那如果回過來看現在因為當時教育部承諾半年內會有一次改革所以我們預計7月之後是不是會再有一波新的公佈相關的辦法我們就是想要我們因為1月12號公佈的這個修正其實也是在去年我們就陸陸續續跟教師團體跟相關的團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8428.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8450.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
內部開會不斷的去研擬所以1月12號那一次我們也是希望說不要什麼案子全部都進入消失會議所以在那一次公布的案件裡面包括增設調和機制就在前端的時候他就先做分流分流前他還有一個調和機制那如果是小案就送一般的考核或者甚至這個不受理像匿名投訴就不受理 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8450.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8472.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
那也有老師反映說他們可能一去就馬上這個也不曉得怎麼面對這些外部人員的調查所以我們也增加了一個輔佐人機制就是說陪同他能夠讓他來爭取維護自己的權利等等啦就是說我們在1月12號已經做了一個修正那修正之後我們當然需要一段時間來收集資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8472.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8490.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
所以哪些是有達到這個效果哪些是在這新的制度達成之後他還是有必要再來做修正的所以我們當時有講說半年大概就是7月我們希望看到這個數據之後呢能夠來做進一步的修正那譬如說很多委員建議是說老師可能這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8492.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8519.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
需要心理智商的這個輔導系統之外也需要一些法律的智商的一個系統的支持我們也在研擬那有類似的一個狀況還有老師還有這個教授團體說考核好像也都委外處理那這個部分我們因為也要去了解各縣市的處理的機制有些縣市它的處理的這個它是百分之百就都不管是考核案件或者是校事會可能都委外 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8520.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8546.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
這個我們也都還要再根據我們所收集到的資料裡面以及大院委員還有我們教師團體各種團體他們所表達的意見我們再做進一步的修正次長講得非常的清楚也就是說教育部確實在逐步走向這個改革的路上來看下一張所以我剛才會說從108年開始我們其實做了這個教師法修法我手上這一大疊全部都是當年2019年也就是108年的時候為什麼會促進這個修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8549.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8568.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
包含我手上有一個新聞說國鄉老師暴走把那個考差的學生叫他們把他們叫來叫他們自打嘴巴湊一體打十下有的小孩自己打了70個巴掌這個新聞說代理教師把一個學生打到屁股開滑還有這個新竹的新聞說是呢霸凌學生把學生壓在地上15分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8569.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8594.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
甚至在嘉义当时有个新闻说有一个老师组了一个群组然后让一些学生在群组里面霸凌其他的同学还有这个更夸张逼特教学生吃辣椒这件事情结果当时呢在中央社有个新闻报道标题叫做迟来的正义也就是说当年这么多不当体罚的事情不当对待的事情确实就引发了修法到了113年我不知道大家记不记得丰源高中案 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8595.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8610.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
有一個學生被教官刻意的針對認為他是有罪栽贓然後導致這個學生輕生所以113年我們再次做了修法也就是說到目前為止如果沒有相關的修法我不確定當大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8610.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8633.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
在喊著要把校士會議廢除的時候從108年開始這些案子如果再度發生請問所有提案要廢除校士會議的委員們你們可以承擔嗎如果再有學生在學校被不當對待甚至自殺跳樓輕生的時候所有這些提案的委員可以負責嗎我相信沒有人可以負責因此我會說 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8634.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8661.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
如同剛剛次長你說的一路在改革的路上我們聽到各式各樣的聲音我們希望親師生三方可以平衡共好所以要修正的是制度而不是貿然廢除我就問如果到時候真的在立法院的教育文化委員會我們真的廢除了校事會議再發生不但管教導致學生輕生尤其像豐原高中這麼嚴重的案子的時候請問哪一個立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8662.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8683.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
敢站出來負責而當時113年發生方圓高中案件的時候已經有校事會議的修法囉都還是發生這樣的事情甚至這個孩子的爸爸後來還出來接受週刊專訪他說他後悔沒有聽孩子告訴他的一些實話這是現場我們遇到的另外一個困境當在校園裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8685.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8700.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
所有的權利是來自於大人的時候我就問提案要廢除校事會議的這些委員們你們敢面對如果再有學生在學校被不當對待他自殺跳樓輕生你們要負責嗎所以我非常支持教育部現在做法一路往前改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8700.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8722.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
清师生三方的平衡我们希望在所有的后续修法跟相关讨论会议中都可以逐渐落实而且之前的公听会当中家长团体例如国教行动联盟学生团体像EDU他们也都认为校事会议不应该废除可以检讨可以修正不应该贸然废除所以拜托教育部持续努力再来下一张 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8723.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8752.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
我之前一直在跟教育部談第三方專責機構但是很可惜有些委員抹黑我說這個第三方專責機構呢我是配合民間團體所提出的但是我要公開指證我要公開的說明在2023年修正性別平等教育三法還有性別平等工作法還有性騷擾防治法的時候我就跟當時的行政院也跟相關的部會提出第三方專責機構我認為所有性騷的爭議可以讓地方政府來解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8753.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8775.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
但是當時在修法的版本裡面經過委員會的討論我的建議沒有被採納但沒有關係這是一個民主討論的過程我樂於接受因此我把這個第三方專責機構的事情從2023年開始我就講到現在從公聽會跟各式各樣的會議當中我都提出主張因此我認為在討論修法的時候有一些委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
8776.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
8795.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
惡意的抹黑栽贓實在是大可不必請委員把自己的論述講清楚比較重要剛好今天這個委員葉青到了現場所以我要說下一張為什麼我始終建議第三方專責機構我們是與理有據的目前消費會遇到的問題就是校長跟教師負責調查我們希望第三方有專責員負責調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
8796.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
8814.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
原本是校方作為程序主導我們希望第三方主導程序調查還有就是調查人才的素質參差不齊我想次長你非常清楚他們受過相關的課程訓練但他們可能不見得有足夠相關的專業知識還有就是調查程序跟經費必須由學校來承擔我們希望把 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
8815.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
8837.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
目前在學校裡面遇到的困境拉到第三方還有專門的裁員專業的人力還有專門的委員會來協助我們希望可以促成的包含是行政負擔的大量減輕提升調查人員的專業能力確保程序的公正透明還有專業分工提升調查品質還給輕師生平衡關係的一個校園所以最後我要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
8839.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
8865.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
當然很有可能在後續修法我的第三方專責機構還是沒有辦法被接受一樣這是一個民主討論的過程我都樂於接受但是我還是要再次提醒就算沒有辦法有第三方我想教育部能夠做的就是好好落實家庭教育還有完善教育配套的措施包含之前教育部也已經採納的教師離線權或者是教師職業安全指引還有各式各類的學校內的行政規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
8866.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
8895.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
還有檢討校事會議的制度問題我想已經有很多事情大家都已經共同在努力了但是我要說請大家再去查一查108年當年有多少新聞是學生在校園被不當對待而就算有了校事會議之後在113年甚至都還發生豐原高中的悲劇我就問校事會議真的可以倒退到108年以前嗎如果再有學生在學校再被不當對待自殺輕生請問有哪一個提案的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
8896.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
8916.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
感勇於負責所以拜託教育部我們持續在校式會議的制度上我們持續精進讓青獅身有一個平衡的校園關係好謝謝委員的指教我們一直在持續精進中謝謝好謝謝委員的詢答請坐下一位葉元之委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
8931.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
8955.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
主席要不要請次長有請次長想跟次長先討論一下有關於行政減量的問題因為我們的這個有關於教育部他有發新聞出來說現在已經有針對校園的行政做減量特別是有針對150項工作全面減市然後有 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
8956.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
8973.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
有104項有完成精進或調整佔整體約69%看起來好像有所調整但是我相信教育部應該是有在做可是教育部做的跟第一線老師的體感還是有一定的落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
8974.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9000.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
那另外也有一篇新聞我相信你們也看到了是前兩天教師團體所開的他就說包括老師除了備課之外第一堂課還要先確認上面有沒有上面交辦的政策要宣導有時候要根據永續發展目標幫忙量塑膏計算碳排回應民代所知等等所以老師確實肩負了很多跟教學無關的行政工作那我這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9001.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9015.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
具體提出一個我認為教育部可以減量如果教育部可以做到這件事情的話我相信老師會很有感就是減少一些不必要的延期因為我知道只要 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9016.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9045.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我們社會當中發生什麼重大事件呢然後教育部就會發文然後叫各個學校的老師去做研習比如說有出現死亡車禍就要做道安的研習然後之前因為有老師親身嘛也有老師有疑似想有親身念頭所以當時也要老師們去做研習然後做比如說自殺的研習啊或者是去做心理健康的研習這些研習實際上 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9047.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9071.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
讓很多老師覺得浪費時間而且也沒有辦法達到效果我的理解是他有一些是線上研習點開來看然後就一個人講話然後點兩個小時結束其實你說他有在聽嗎他也沒有在聽但是因為你這個有KPI嘛所以他必須要做這個動作然後特別是針對有一些導師啦我遇到很多導師跟我反應說他一整天的時間都被塞滿 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9072.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9082.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
那個次長你想像一下一個導師早上七點多就到班上去然後就學生陸續來然後在課程當中他要上課沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9083.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9104.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
沒有課的時候他要備課中午吃飯的時候要陪同學吃一樣午餐然後一整天一整天從七點多到他離開學校所有的時間都被塞滿那你說這樣導師他哪有多的時間可以去研習所以這個研習的部分除了法定的規定法律規定一定要做的之外像我找一些性平的 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9105.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9120.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
或者環境那個有法律規定其他這一種突如其來式的研習是不是可以減少我想這個研習的部分低限的我們是不是請那個署長來了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9123.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9150.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
謝謝委員您提到的確是我們四大項的一項我們會照委員的意思來處理、檢討會照委員的意思來檢討、處理你所用檢討、檢討、研習是不是對譬如說我們現在是留下盡量是法定的才一定要其他的盡量不要去勉強老師第二點如果太遠的地方就用線上不要勉強老師又要下山或是從海邊過來集中的地方研習所以研習的部分其實委員講得都很好我們會照委員這個方向謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9151.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9179.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
OK 那個署長大概什麼時候會有一個辦法出來 減少延期這個這一個可能要定成辦法 要有授權的依據但是這個不用 我們用行政指導就可以再繼續處理在兩週內就可以再處理了之前是有發過 可是今天委員提醒的我們再強化一下 兩週內好 謝謝 謝謝署長然後第二有關於國民教育法 我自己的提案是針對校園安全跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9180.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9202.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
希望能夠輔導人力盡量專責化主要是這兩個重點那校園安全我看到今天教育部的書面報告的回文是說兩件事情你們已經有針對校園安全訂出很多辦法出來比如說維護校園安全實施要點校園安全防護注意事項等等強化校園防護機制實施計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9203.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9227.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
感覺上好像教育部認為你們這些辦法定下去之後對於校園安全已經做得很好了可是實際上這個市長您的感覺怎麼樣因為現在的校園安全的問題真的非常複雜不僅是有幫派的介入尤其是現在很多學生都被吸收成為車手然後還有毒品的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9228.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9247.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
那非常多的問題那再結合就是老師現在也沒什麼管教權老師也不太能夠管所以校園安全現在問題很嚴重那這些你們釘釘的法律我覺得已經不服十一很多已經不服十一了那包括行政院政務委員紀連城自己都講了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9248.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9272.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
他要推第五級保全就是鼓勵退休的軍警回到校園來協助處理不管是像毒品或者其他比較重大的治安的問題那所以我自己還是認為說校園安全路法是有必要那這其中也有牽涉到人力啦我看到教育部你們的回文裡面也是有提到說114年已經推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9275.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9295.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
補助地方政府辦理國民中學政治學務人力計畫那這個部分其實這一兩年我一直在講高中是六個班就一個校安人員國中現在是六十個班才一個校安人員但市長我問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9296.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9302.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
你覺得校安的問題學校校園複雜的問題國中難道沒有比高中來的複雜嗎國中所面對到的校安問題難道沒有比高中嚴重嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9308.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9327.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
我們其實也是從這個補助的計畫去引導因為高中以下當然高中我們這個比例是訂定的這個標準那國中當然也有需要國中我們也是用補助的方式當然希望現在就是現在我知道我為了自己覺得有必要我覺得用補助的方式很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9328.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9343.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
但是問題就是高中是六個班就一個校安人員國中是六十個班一個校安人員人數的比例差太多了這不如我們來監討對 不用監討啦就直接補助就好了我們現在有補助計畫啦就是來新的嗎對 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9345.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9362.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
應該115年了謝謝委員那之前您提到的時候我們在114就實施了增加了633人那委員在提醒之後我們也持續提高像這個學年會再增加230人給完中的部分那我應該還是覺得按照比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9362.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9384.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
是不是可以像高中那樣把那個規格再降高一點提高一點這些因為涉及到地方政府一起來努力那我們前面一波已經努力下一波會照委員這個方向的確我們也覺得國中還是要持續強化這講很久了啦這個講非常久了所以委員我們就照這個方向就有一波一波繼續往上加 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9385.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9412.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
那我上次有提醒嘛反正現在行政院也認為要推第五級保全那不管是不是最後叫第五級保全那既然行政院想做教育部可以跟行政院要預算嘛如果他想做這個事情的話只是說我們不要叫第五級保全我們爭取校安人員那校安人員就是學校行政的一環嘛他可以比如說跟校長啊其他行政員一起努力把校園安全問題搞好啦而不是說好像一個校外單位什麼第五級保全進來做調查的我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9414.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9430.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
既然做調查可能大家會有點顧慮但如果是多一個校園人員我覺得大家都會支持所以部長跟行政院增加校園人員的方向然後剛剛有提到115年因為我最近有收到很多陳情案各個蠻多不同縣市都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9433.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9460.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
說一億五的辦法好像沒有下來預算沒有下來所以原先的校安人員就是所謂的創新能力他們擔心說是不是沒有延續不知道署長知道這個事我請署長來回答謝謝委員我們校安人員我們是用每學年這樣處理在七月底以前會核定完成並同今年增加的兩百三十校 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9462.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9474.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
我說有一些我陸陸續續有收到一些陳情然後他們講說好像擔心擔心是不是115年的辦法沒有下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9476.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9494.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
不會啦 有沒有絕對不會因為這個是非常重要的教育階段並且我們也會用隨到隨省不會第一個縣市要等個三十天第三個全部縣市來才給我們採學隨到隨省的方式趕快協助地方跟學校那為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9495.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9509.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
有人會這樣顧慮應該都是學校的人來反映他說參與這次的校園人員聘用日期是到今年的115年的7月31號然後他們得到的消息是說7月31號以後沒有經費給補助為什麼會有這個誤會不會啦不會吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9512.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9536.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
我們4月19不只一個學校的人來擔任這個如果委員有名單我們會私下來幫忙他你要不要宣導一下跟大家宣導一下就是說在7月31號還是會有經費不然校園人員會擔任並且那個錢我們也會準時的撥下去而且我們計畫其實在4月19就已經頒布了是喔 奇怪我跟你講真的收到不只一位你們再去了解一下再讓我們知道OK 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9542.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9565.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
謝謝好 謝謝請回座下一位有請郭怡情委員好 有請次長有請次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9569.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9586.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
郭委員好市長早我想大家都認同這個教育對孩子的發展其實至關重要那我們政府在推0到6歲國家養的一個政策以來其實根據國教署最新的一個統計剛剛其實在程旭發言的時候其實我也說過了那從114年5歲幼兒園 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9588.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9602.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
幼儿的这个入园率也已经高达了95.52%那这个比例其实相当的高那我想这个显示大多数的一个家长他们也确实实质的参与了这个学前的一个教育就是他们的孩子们 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9603.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9619.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
那但現在有委員要提出要把這個五歲納入義務教育強迫入學那我想這不是只有改個名字跟學費補貼的一個問題而已而是會牽動整個國家的一個教育的體系那我想我們可以反過來思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9620.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9643.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
研究一下就是剩下將近5%沒有入園的孩子那是因為家長自己想要自己帶還是說是因為偏鄉的資源不足的一個問題我想這個部分想要來請教一下教育部幾個問題那前面剛剛提到的這個報告當中如果我們把這個5歲納入國教那麼至少要增加1431個班級 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9645.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
9661.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
那如果照部分委員甚至提議要下修到三歲那要增加的是將近一萬四千三百五十六班那如果說我們明天就要開始強迫這個五歲的孩子要入學了我請問一下我們的這個次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
9663.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
9679.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
這麼龐大的一個需求我們目前的師生筆還有這個士林的學習的硬體的一個空間那麼廁所的一個設施真的都能夠短期到位嗎這是第一個問題那第二個問題是我們的財政負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
9680.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
9701.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
我想國教的延伸不管是往上還是往下那其實都牽涉到所謂的重大的經費的支出那這個部分其實在這個財化法的資源分配財源分配這樣子的一個問題我們有沒有精準的算過這筆錢目前在哪裡那我們有沒有跟地方政府好好的溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
9702.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
9716.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
好 謝謝韋德關心這個5歲的入園率確實已經達到95.5%多啦就96%左右那至於有少數不到5%的人他可能是在家自己帶那有些因素呢他可能是因為父母跟著出國 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
9717.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
9737.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
那有些這個大概有各種因素那幾乎那個入園率非常高這個數字應該偏鄉資源不足是一個問題原住民的這個重點學校重點區大概還要達到96%他們沒有說那個不足那邊其實在偏鄉的照顧其實在這一波的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
9738.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
9766.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
少數綠化對策裡面我們對於這個各縣市的那個兩歲到五歲專班的公共化評價教保的名額的釋出的攻擊其實這個是這個是有效的他們也都錄影第二個問題就是說你提到說如果現在國家往向下延伸馬上延伸會面臨什麼問題其實我們在這到今天要開會那昨天前天前幾天大概也問了一些地方縣市政府他們的想法其實他們也是比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
9767.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
9791.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
比較習慣也是比較希望能夠解決的譬如說都會區的他可能比較希望解決兩歲專班的問題那提高繼續提高那個入園那個入園率的問題那他們也希望說那個我們現在的少數立法對策的補助能夠市政府的裁員能夠盡量能夠再降往下降等等那其實我們政府也都朝這方面在做那 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
9792.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
9815.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
那至於這個比較偏鄉的一些偏遠地區它的供給量是夠的但是呢他們也希望說朝減輕負擔減輕負擔那我們的私生筆這些呢私生筆現在公共化優惠園包括我們的準公幼非營利還有公托其實我們都達到1比12了那如果你往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
9816.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
9831.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
就降到五歲馬上要強迫入選這個能短時間到位嗎其實坦白講現在沒辦法因為現在我們這麼高的入園率目前由公幼就是我們的公共來支撐的這個比例大概還是3比7左右大概3比7 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
9831.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
9847.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
那我想那也有其他的家長也會反映啦就是說如果要這個小孩五歲就要被送入所謂的正式的一個學制那會不會淪為所謂的小學生中班對家長的反應其實比較是在經濟上的負擔所以我們一直在 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
9848.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
9869.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
逐年在那個其實從105年上路開始到現在的321到明年再外加5000其實就是逐步是政府的裁員然後再擴大照顧跟這個減輕負擔的一個對策所以中瓜以上其實我們大家前面幾個委員也特別提到了我們這次真的還是希望先就是召開公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
9869.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
9889.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
那麼聽取更多不管家長團體也好幼教的一個專業的師資或基層的一個教師還有地方政府以及幼兒園的他們的一些代表與其要強迫入學我們還不如就是來思考怎麼樣來因應這些方式我覺得可能還是會鼓勵生育減輕負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
9890.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
9913.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
這個部分我是不是請教育部也持續的盤點那麼針對這個全國的這個校舍的能量然後跟師資的一個儲備還有我們的預算的一個缺口我想我們可不可以做個評估的報告我們會提供資料就是在如果大院要召開公聽會的話提前讓我們知道我們會把這個資料準備好大概多久你們需要準備資料這樣子的一個評估報告大概需要準備多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
9915.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
9928.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那因為今天有大概四位委員目前為止有四位委員有增加我們原來評估的項目我們會大概七天左右七個工作天把它做完所有新生的意見跟原來我們的意見整合在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
9929.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
9956.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
再让我们教育委员会的委员指导一下好那第二个问题我想再次的问一下就是第一线的教师其实他们称其是台湾教育的一个支柱但是现在当然我们知道其实我们教育部其实在这个部分也下了不少的功夫那我们持续在推动教师资商辅导的一个支持的一个中心那么从113年开始其实我们把这样子的一个辅助地方的一个经费也提高到了所谓的6000万元 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
9956.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
9969.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
那服務的人次其實也慢慢的提升但是我們過去一直在強調那心理輔導其實不是那麼的足夠因為其實教師除了心理輔導他有教學壓力或者是來自所謂的教師會議還有校園的訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
9971.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
9993.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
那我想這個其實我們所有的聲音我相信教育部這邊也都聽得很清楚那目前已經開始要研議來建立所謂的這個縣市法律諮詢的一個系統那麼我們也預計要跟這個律師公會來做一個合作其實我們也當然期待這樣的一個成果那目前有沒有盤點出就是教育部的這個教師諮商輔導支持中心目前服務的一個成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
9994.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10012.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
那麼最新的一個報告是如何我們真的有確實接到第一線身心狀況出現一些問題的這些老師嗎那第二個問題是我們中央對於全國性的這個法律資源的一個中心有沒有具體的一個時程配套的措施大概有哪些這兩個問題請教一下教育局好謝謝委員的關心其實我們那個教師 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10016.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10035.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
心理諮商輔導這個從109年開始由台視大的王教授開始在輔導各縣市成立到現在已經在第六年那其實整個服務的成效平均的次數我因為那個詳細數字委員如果需要我會給大概每年會有4000多多的人次4000多個人次 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10036.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10056.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
好 那另外就是全國的法律資源中心有沒有具體的一個目前對於全國性的這樣子的一個資源中心我們的配套措施還有大概對 委員關心這個就是說也有很多外界在關心所以當時我認為這個是可以來朝向這個方向來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10056.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10071.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
但是這個因為涉及的層面也很廣譬如說你要去跟公會洽談地方縣市政府他們要怎麼樣成立要成立在哪一個單位這個都還需要再做跟地方政府取得共識啦我們會朝這個方向來做來推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10072.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10088.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
我們大家都希望教育部不要只是研議啦不要只是研議而是應該要儘速的去提供所謂的比較具體的一個施策表出來我們還是一定會做啦譬如說剛才委員關心的那個教師諮商也是一樣我們推動剛開始推動也是很少的剛才這數字111年的時候是2800多到112年4000多4000多到去年也到5762增加了一倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10096.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10112.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
好所以我們還是要繼續的瞎快腳步我們再提醒一次就是不要讓老師在面對他們訴訟的時候覺得自己是孤軍奮戰我覺得這點非常重要然後也提醒不要讓這個繁瑣的行政調查的程序去壓垮校園那地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10112.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10138.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
第三方的一個專業其實剛剛其實也有委員提到第三方的這個專業跟公正性的一個提升那學校是負責受理沒錯但是調查認定要交由人才庫的一個專業的法律跟心理上面的一個資訊來保障學生的受教權跟老師的工作權我想這個部分我們要繼續努力好嗎好謝謝我們會的努力好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝我們國務卿委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10142.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10153.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
我們先做出一個宣告我們處理臨時提案等整個會議詢答結束以後再來處理我們接著進行蔡春籌委員的詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10170.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10173.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
主席好有請次長有請次長蔡委員好次長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10180.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10201.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
今天我仍然要跟次長來探討國民教育法我們在做深入的一個探討那以我個人過去的一個經驗在學校觀察的往往都是認真的老師他就比較會有事情那教師工作他是良心事業他沒有辦法量化 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10203.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10223.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
所以我為什麼有這個感慨呢就是因為最近在媒體有一個報導深入教學的第一線報導了一個令人很心痛的個案就是一位熱誠的老師只是在聯絡部上關心學生多寫了一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10225.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10232.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
這一計畫呢卻在4個月呢短短的4個月呢被家長透過各種的管道來爛數高達40幾件這個呢這個案例呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10239.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10264.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
就可以我上個禮拜有跟次長交流過就是說如果這個案件不要第一時間進到校園有一個知行委員把他擋住讓這個知行委員先來做一個過濾的話今天就不會有這種事情發生所以呢我們就是要來強調說這個的重要性對 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10267.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10287.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
好 我想委員提的這個我們在1月12號公布的那次修正裡面其實就增加了一個調和機制就是在進入教師會議以前呢校長會召集教師代表 教長代表以及這個這個第三方公正人士然後雙方也可以先行一起開會就是說去了解雙方的這個其實我們有增加調和機制不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10288.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10316.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我的意思是說這個案件先不要進來不要讓這個老師知道這樣的讓他心裡有一個健康的狀態進入校事會之前我們會先由校長召集你既然有投訴我們不可能不處理但是如果說校長認為說這不是這麼大的案件那是不是我們先把這個當事人兩方都找來來瞭解讓他瞭解一下以前的學校的因為以前大概還沒有校事會之前在教評會的那個決定的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10317.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10338.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那個不適合教室處理的方式也是這樣子所以我們也是在增加就是讓它有一個調和的機制也是因為這樣我們看了1月12號之後事實上進入但是次長你現在講的跟我講的不一樣我講的就是說有一個單位諮詢委員的這個單位設立另外再設一個對對就是不要讓教堂要設立在 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10339.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10367.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
就是要進到校事會議之前有一個專門的一個諮詢委員會這樣子讓校長老師不會受到這個心理壓力我的意思是這樣子那上個禮拜是跟你這樣溝通這個是類似第三方第三方的一個機制是不是要考慮一下我們這個老師呢他四個月四個月裡面有四十件的這張單數那你想老師的心理的壓力陰影有多大 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10367.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10390.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
那我想我們教育部我們都是要來保護我們不但要保護老師 也一定要保護我們不但要保護學生 也一定要來保護老師我們有看到教育部提供的國民教育法實案的一個書面報告在第四頁有針對校園的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10391.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10410.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
還有行政監督講現行法規及相關計畫就學生輔導還有校園安全及行政資源定有相關的規範及運作機制所以教育部就說足供學校實務遵行 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10411.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10434.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
但是本席我來看我覺得你的報告內容沒有抓到重點那現在教學現場的老師為什麼會出現懷疑性的教學為什麼他看到行為偏差的學生他不敢管教我借鑒那個鐵錢教育的一句驚言 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10435.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10454.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
他說 當大人害怕小孩 那麼這個世界就完蛋了我們目前的一個學校的一個效應的一個現況就是這樣子所以呢 因為老師害怕分數 害怕動輒擇舊的一個校事會議所以今天呢 你教育部要撥經費來聘僱一些協務的人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10461.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10476.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
這些人力真的可以幫助這些老師來處理法律的問題嗎他們能夠幫助老師來處理爛數的問題嗎所以呢你們不能給老師實質的法律保障行政的支持根本就是沒有抓到重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10477.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10491.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
所以呢我上個禮拜也有講到說我們如果老是採取正要必要正當合法的一個比例原則的一個維持秩序的同時呢下一步要給制度剛剛有很多委員都講 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10492.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
10507.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
制度要支持我們沒有說這個消失會議要存回的問題是制度要如何來支持這樣的一個機制那請不要讓那個教師獨自來承受這個心理壓力市長請你回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
10509.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
10530.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
對我想那個委員關心的這種正當管教措施我們制度後盾其實我們那個輔導管教的注意事項裡面也充分的譬如說在第24條主確違法的部分我們就是不罰那第23條那個正向管教的部分我們也都讓學校裡面能夠有一個遵循納入他大概也是依照我們的注意事項就正向管教不罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
10531.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
10553.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
這部分其實就是一個制度那當然我們在公聽會確實有聽到老師說那只是一個注意事項本身的這個法律未接沒有像入法保障這樣所以我們也在想說怎麼樣子讓這個所謂的老師的管教權能夠有一些未接比較高的一個保障所以委員的建議我們也會朝這個方向來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
10554.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
10583.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
那個上個禮拜我跟次長講說我們交流的希望都能夠未來都能夠做一個參考但是呢我剛剛在跟次長討論的時候好像次長也沒有進入狀況所以呢我們希望我們所提出來的一個建議都能夠納入你們的考量就是說如果注意事項那個質疑不夠的話我們就用類似的其他的那個管理辦法或是其他的那個辦法來請那個地方政府能夠遵照 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
10585.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
10608.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
那最後這一個部分我想請次長來回答三件事情然後並做簡單回答然後做一個書面給本辦第一就是說校事會議你要如何回到那個重大案件處理的時候呢跟親師溝通班級管理還有教學方式的一個差異屬於成績考核辦法的考核事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
10614.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
10641.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
那個輔導管教又要如何來備保障進入程序的時候教師又如何來備資質那請次長您簡單說明一下然後再教一個其實剛才委員都問到了第一個就是我們剛才就提到了大小案分流在我們1月12號公布的新的辦法裡面就提到了那從1到4月的數據看起來也確實造成分流就是大案才進入校資會小案是 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
10642.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
10662.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
回到一般考核或者是不受理一個是22%一個是82%所以我們確實也朝這個方向在走第二就是輔導管教剛才委員也問如果在我們修法能夠入法保障之前還沒有辦法修法我們會提高它的法律的一個指導位階希望各地方縣市政府教育局能夠督導學校辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
10662.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
10681.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
落實教師的管教權那第三個就是進入程序之後老師怎麼樣如何保障我們當然在第一階段的修正裡面有增加輔助人機制那現在也有老師認為說除了教師諮商心理諮商輔導系統不夠我們是不是增加法律的一個資源我們也在努力在朝這個方向走 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
10684.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
10707.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那再請再做一個順便的一個詳細的一個報告好 這個如果有人需要我們再給好 那我回應一下剛剛秀寶委員她提的她說品德教育應該要考慮就是大學的時候入學的時候做一個依據這個我非常贊成為什麼因為如果你把它依據了那學生在學校的一個表現他要注意家長也要注意因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
10708.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
10724.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
表現不好那會影響他以後的入學那品德教育呢我們一定要從國小啟蒙的時候一定要扎根這個地方也請教育部無論如何一定要扎根來實施這個品德教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
10724.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
10744.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
好因為今天跟之前已經有很多委員針對於大學入學這個標準要不要把品德這表現把它納入我們會謹慎來評估好謝謝那最後呢我要跟次長分享就是因為最近呢那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
10746.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
10754.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
災情 暴雨那嶺嶺縣也非常的嚴重那在這裡我們要先了解說嶺嶺縣也是農業大縣那這個會影響到我們會對營養午餐的一個食材的供應雖然 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
10768.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
10780.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
明天過後就是暑假但是我們還是要來未來必須教育部要來協助地方教育主管機關還有學校團善業者辦理應用跟農業部如何協同因為氣候變遷已經是常態了 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
10788.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
10810.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那不能說明天過後就是暑假那就沒事了那這個部分呢我們也希望教育部在這個營養午餐的食材的部分呢要要著力來做一個處理是 報告委我們過去在這個定型化供應契約裡面大概都會保留一些彈性如果遇到這種雨季雨災水災那造成那個菜價的暴漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
10811.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
10832.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
或者是供應量不足的時候能夠有一些替代的措施所以這個一定不是只有雲林縣是全台灣所以我們在那個定型區裡面有配辦所以我們就知道說營養午餐的專法有多重要我們希望就是趕快能夠把這個營養午餐推出去讓全國的學校有一個統一的一個依據所以在專法還沒上路之前我們也有這樣的機制來解決問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
10834.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
10859.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
那最後還是屬於那個氣候變遷的問題那現在在這個影片上呢這是雲林縣北港鎮北城國小它這個學校呢積水非常的嚴重那這一次呢一定也是非常嚴重那我也曾經有新聞給教育部就是北城國小的一個申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
10862.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
10877.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
我們其實在前兩天署長就跟我說有些縣市比較嚴重他已經都先撥款了是一定要先撥款而且要趁暑假這個期間來做現在不只是雲林縣我覺得我要建議教育部應該要盤查 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
10881.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
10894.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
盤點所有全台灣有一些現在我們都有校安通道對有一些積水的一定要優先來做一個處理因為血統的安全這是我們最先要考量的而且你看這個北城國小的積水是這麼嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
10896.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
10924.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
對 我們這種重大的災害的那種緊急災害的應變我們都行之多年都會儘速來協助地方來復原沒有錯 因為現在是氣候變遷變成一個常態然後只要一下也都是暴雨然後所以我們一定要做一個危機處理在這個地方也免疫那個教育部那個對於學校的一個安全能夠做到位好 謝謝委員我們每天都有一些校安通報的資料好 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
10924.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
10950.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
不斷在更新 我們也在提供很快速的一個協助好 謝謝好 謝謝請回座下一位吳斯耀委員張亮次長請有請次長 彭署長也一起有請彭署長好 謝謝 委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
10951.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
10970.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
大家辛苦喔 國教向下延伸是姿勢體大的配套夠不夠 裁員在哪裡都要謹慎理性的來討論如果倉促貿然的上路恐怕為教育現場是為謀其利先受其害的所以我認為國教向下延伸有這麼急嗎 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
10972.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
10989.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
立法院最急的是我們的總預算我還是在我們文化跟運動部門預算沒有完成審議前我還是每一天都會提醒304天的拖延甚至在教文會吳麗華教委所排的教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
10990.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11007.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
五月十八就省完了今天是六月二十九同樣是叫委會不同的交委對於預算的排審可以差一個月又十一天我認為非不行也不為也 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11009.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11029.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
但是呢立委不省預算卻一再的透過修法來增加很多教育現場的制度的大變革沒有預算怎麼進行政策的調整呢立委加碼的去撒幣那預算不通過又怎麼有錢花呢夏業我一樣會不厭其煩的來統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11033.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11051.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
教文會的委員康國家之凱無視於財政紀律法無視於預算法無視於憲法權利分立的原則光這個會期的乾坑法案從學貸三法每年要求中央增加負擔少則100億多則400億營養午餐法少則138億多則無法算計 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11058.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11069.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
要照法要求中央全額增加支出每年400到600億今天的國教法如果又倉促的快轉過稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11071.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11093.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
那麼每年增加至少再100億而一次性的空間硬體的增加支出是至少80億所以A加B加C加D就是這一個會期教文會立委競相加碼大撒幣的前科方案加總起來教育部一年要增加至少738億到1238億的支出 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11100.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11123.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
次長您知道在財化法通過之後教育部的本部預算減少了多少嗎892億教育部在財化法之後自己的預算被立法委員等於是砍除了892億而現在每年立委片面的加碼就要你們增加國庫738到1238億的支出 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11128.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11151.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
怎麼做 做得到嗎做得到嗎 次長 做得到嗎就不可能嘛我們要負責任務實的對國庫負責對人民負責看國家之愷做不到的拿著刀子掐著教育部的脖子怎麼做呢 夏業 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11152.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11169.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
今天的國教法事實上中央地方是各有權責跟分工的立委修法很簡單把義務教育從6歲6改成5改一個字可是你們要整個大變動 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11171.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11193.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
然後呢更在第四條加了一項學前教育所需經費由中央政府編列預算之意只要加幾個字全部的五到六歲這一年全部中央買單立委修法很簡單但是立委來凌駕行政部門的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11195.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11218.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
做得到吗下一页次长您跟我前一任我们都是立法会员教会会2023年国民教育法修正您也在审查的现场那个时候我们讨论过非常多次对不对好几次的会议严谨的讨论国民教育法我们完成了历年最大幅度的一次国教法的修正范围非常的广 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11219.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11234.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
那個時候也有委員提出2023年就提出國教要向下延伸當時教育部門跟立法部門也召開過很多公聽會我們最後踩了煞車因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11234.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11263.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
法源的依據要更完備師資的培育目前還做不到組織人士要精進還需要很多的資源而課綱的制定遷移法而動全身經費的編列中央跟地方如何分擔也沒有定見這五大問題今天2026年又要審這個法了這五個問題哪一個解決了還是完全都還沒有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11265.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11289.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
就是我要跟委員報告其實在2023年我們在修法的時候其實都遇到很多問題那事實上這些問題都當時提出來了嘛那你現在往下延伸這個到五歲其實可能大家會誤解好像我們反對延伸到五歲好像是不照顧幼兒教育那事實上我們是配合少子女化政策對策其實我們從105學年度開始就不斷在擴大公共化幼兒園的名額就在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11291.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11310.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
我們並沒有因為2023年沒有接受向下延伸就不做事我們反而加碼的針對0到6歲國家一起養每年國家挹注685億在幼兒跟教保的措施減少家長的負擔增加學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11311.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11337.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
的這些幼兒的學習的品質提升嗎您剛剛要解釋的就在這裡嗎我們擴大公立非營利總共幼兒園的設施有36.5萬名幼生受惠每年國家加碼投入505億而在念私校或是在家自己帶的20.5萬名幼生我們另外也給予育兒津貼每年國家也 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11338.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11352.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
投入了180億當國庫能夠負擔國家行有餘力我們想方設法再把教保的措施做得更完善這就是現行的政策下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11354.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11382.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
而我看到委員提案雖然只改一個字可是教育現場就會雞飛狗跳我們這10年間逐步的提升我們的公共化的教保不管是公立幼兒園10年增加217所非營利幼兒園10年增加399所都是要人力物力空間而且有非常多跟公司部門的協調我們努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11382.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11402.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
稳健的做到这是这十年间我们的成果对不对所以我们担心啊增设幼儿园立委只改一个字把六岁改成五岁国民教育就向下延伸了立委们难道认为增设幼儿园是变魔术吗改个字就可以做到吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11404.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11431.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
如果以現在委員所提出的向下延伸一年到五歲的話要增加1431班對不對如果有的委員更進一步延伸到三到五歲那麼要增加14356班你們有算過嗎如果以剛剛我們十年增加616所1616校班我們要花多少錢才能夠到位啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11432.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
11458.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
這需要花時間啊不是變魔術啊所以說在教學端課程綱要教材審定師資培育跟教學評量都要重新配套行政端校舍空間人事行政經費分工跟學區的分發也需要給教育部門完整的時間去做配套這些問題都不能視而不見喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
11459.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
11479.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
你们多久时间可以完整的提出尽可能尽可能完备的这些准备工作的报告呢七天七天做得到啊七天我们刚才有委员询问我们七天把它盘点出来但你们七天也可能只是回应说这些部分现在都很难达成嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
11480.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
11496.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
我們會把其實剛才又委員提到說這個向下也是到五歲我們開始有課綱那很多我們也在重視學科學習會不會因為這樣子造成幼兒學習的壓力就進入到學校這個其實是另外一個觀點這個我們也會來評估好 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
11498.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
11526.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
七天給報告是可以的但不代表七天就可以讓向下延伸好像有明確的方向不是我們是七天給大家資料說我們遇到什麼問題過去的評估怎麼樣現在新的觀點怎麼樣讓大家更清楚的知道甚至國際上很多國家我們委員提到了他們執行的狀況我們現在其實比較正確的方向是要減輕負擔增加生意這是現在我們政策的做法最後一頁我們看這一頁來下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
11527.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
11546.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
我更要挑戰就在教育文化委員會上上週修了幼照法要求把私立幼兒園自己帶的全部提高津貼每個月1.5萬到2萬意思是這些私校的在家自己帶的國庫來補貼 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
11548.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
11569.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
然後準公共幼兒園也全部免費政府負擔現在今天又來修國教法把五歲的那一端全部變成中央買單那很奇怪啊剛修了幼照法跟今天的國教法不就是自己邏輯錯亂自相矛盾嗎幼照法是要政府用擴大補貼的方式補給家長 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
11571.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
11600.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
然後現在來修國教法全部國家買單那我不曉得審查之後那這兩個法的這些競合衝突怎麼解決你們有看到這個問題嗎我們當然知道我們覺得這個部分真的要審慎評估這個沒有辦法什麼都用那個補貼啦或者是所以我們非常理性跟嚴謹的來呼籲教育現場的需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
11601.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
11624.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
教育品質的提升我們有多元的政策然後逐步的來做成那立委對於義務教育向下延伸stakeholders彼此的意見我們需要跟更多的社會層面來對話我們要嚴謹的面對大家繼續的強化論述不能夠倉促修法造成教育現場的大混亂好繼續加油謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝請回座 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
11633.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
11659.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
下一位有請吳麗華委員謝謝趙偉主席有請次長有請次長吳趙偉好次長好談到國民義務教育向下延伸其實這個問題談了幾十年為什麼呢因為我們都很知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
11660.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
11679.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
学校它的产生是来自于工业革命化之后所以呢为了国家需要读写算的人力需要标准化的知识在短期的时间内累积知识能力所以呢我们有着这样的一个机构 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
11680.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
11707.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
可是當我們說學校是不是等同於工廠化其實也蠻像的所以一直以來幾十年來在教育心理學上不斷的討論到底我們的孩子要幾歲入學才是最好的但是至少我們知道幼兒它基於他的大腦肌肉的一個發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
11708.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
11734.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
來到了學校他會有一些問題像是久時間的一個端坐在那邊或者是要求一個高度的紀律甚至是分離的焦慮讓他造成以後排斥上學或者是這樣的一個集體化學習抹滅掉孩子的創造力好奇心所以簡單來講就是亞苗助長 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
11735.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
11755.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
可是我们面对教育的平权跟教育我们的幼儿的身心发展其实它到底是只能择一是互斥的还是我们可以兼顾的但是我们可以知道现在因为幼儿园它有点类似军备竞赛 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
11757.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
11783.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
所以呢很多的教育学者也非常的担心那现在我们更面临到的一个新的问题是AI技术它真的是发展的非常快速那么面对我们现在已经实施这200年的传统学校体制的僵化所以呢已经慢慢的开始出现了三四十年前在谈的无学校时代 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
11784.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
11800.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
也就是我們也慢慢開始可能要去考慮做去的以機構為中心是不是現在慢慢的已經轉移到以學習者為中心那麼正在解構當中特別是現在的一個學歷通膨 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
11801.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
11826.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
所以我們在這個時候要來討論這個問題也不是不可以但是我至少知道說如果我們要談到教育的平權談到機會的平等我們一直都在講要實質的平等所以我們一直主張要有積極性的差別待遇特別是像現在我看起來我們教育部的目標就是免學費 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
11828.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
11843.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
非強迫嘛那我也知道說仍舊現在有很多的家庭他沒有照顧的一個能量跟支持我也看到我們很多的孩子他需要早期療癒 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
11845.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
11861.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
卻不得其門而入家長也不送他去那有很多認知發展遲緩或者是身心障礙的這些兒童他們都很需要及早的接受教育所以在這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
11861.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
11878.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我會覺得說如果我們要去彌平所謂的教育平權給予它實質的平等積極性的差別待遇我個人是認為這是我個人的主張我真的建議從分區尤其是所謂的離島 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
11880.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
11900.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
还有原乡偏乡来做那刚好我也看到立法院的法治局在110年的报告有提到建议从教育资源不足的地区开始做那我觉得孩子其实一般的孩子他更需要的是爱 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
11900.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
11915.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
安全然後充分的遊戲充分的聽故事那到底有一些幼兒園他是不是只做提供愛與安全然後呢給他充分的遊戲讓他充分的聽故事 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
11916.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
11937.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
是不是所有的幼兒園都能夠這麼做我相信大家都有眼睛都可以看但是我們現在要討論的就是說我想聽聽看就是提到這個國民教育向下延伸到五歲到底準備好了沒有因為我現在知道的是我們的五歲入園率是96%次長沒錯吧是 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
11940.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
11964.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
所以如果我們現在把他強迫入學條例追蹤的話會有多少人需要把他拉回來大概六千人左右那這六千人會產生什麼樣的一個做法如果按照強迫入學條例的話他可能會有一些懲罰的機制開罰可能要開罰那意思就是說有一些家長會強烈的反對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
11969.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
11983.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
應該是會他如果有申訴譬如說有一些特殊的因素譬如說他出國或者他有特殊的身體疾病等等那如果是那種有教育理念的家長呢他就在家學他就是去學校 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
11984.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
11999.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
為中心的學習在家自學那個申請也是可以做的所以他就申請在家入學那麼如果現在我們要開始做這件事情那請問我們的非營利幼兒園準公共的這些幼兒園私幼他們的配套是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12000.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12019.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
這個就是要去研究嘛公共化我們10年我們剛才提到這個委員也提到嘛10年來大概增加了公幼跟非營利幼兒園大概增加600多所那這些其實是一直在逐漸在提供能量那其實委員你現在在黑板上所講的這個東西就是說我們從 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12020.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12041.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
降低負擔開始 土積率開始 到現在我們也開始在注意這個質的部分 質量的問題所以我們現在大家倡議多年的 希望能夠從1比15減到1比12我們在公共化的幼兒園裡面也都已經達到了 115學年都達到再過來就是對於一些品質 有些準公共 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12042.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12059.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
准公共化私立的幼兒園它的品質的問題我們要怎麼樣的監管提升等等這個也是我們未來努力的重點市長其實我覺得這件事情不是不能做但是我覺得持不同觀點的人很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12060.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12082.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
不管是專家學者或者是家長其實很多人都持不同的觀點所以我覺得充分的溝通很重要那麼跟地方的分權也要談清楚所以我覺得這個部分我們需要更多的一個支持的論證可是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12082.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12105.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
我個人我是希望說如果說真的要推那我是希望看到如何分階段分區域那特別是針對我剛剛所講的積極性的差別待遇才是真公平我希望能夠在兩個月內可以給我看到我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12106.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12131.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
一樣的一個分階段分區域的實施的規劃內容規劃內容還有可行性我希望兩個月之內給我報告可以嗎然後另外有一個問題我想要請教一下就是我們現在在談校事會議但是我遇到很多老師其實他在可能被考核辦法處理之後呢他被記過然後呢他們也會打訴願 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12132.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12148.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
好現在因為他們都要自費的去找律師寫狀要自證清白那你也可以看到很多老師說身心科看了兩年啊然後呢要去跟他們的縣政府去要求經費呢也被拒絕 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12149.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12167.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
所以這個部分我想要了解一下學校作為教師的服務機關那對於因公設送的教師他應該負有法定協助義務那這些義務呢不是學校的恩惠而是教師法明確規定的責任所以我有所知教育部提供給我111到114年 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12170.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12177.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
因公射送老師的補助案件我看到是16案46人所以這個是確實的數據嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12180.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12200.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
對,我想這是國立的高中,國立高中指數所以給我的這個16和446人是針對國立高中嗎?對,所以其實我們之前我們在參加公聽會的時候有很多教師團體的代表、工會代表提到那個教師如果因為這些投訴他射送除了心理智商輔導系統的建立之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12201.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12224.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
律師的支持我是個人非常支持回去我也跟部裡面講所以我才希望因為有的縣市他不給啊是所以我們就是因為業務單位跟我說這個我們必須要跟地方來再談那在跟地方談之前我們自己部裡面也盤一些經費我們來協助就像好像當年教書法修過之後2020年開始我們開始自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12226.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12241.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
編中央的預算然後輔導各個地方縣市政府來建立教師諮商輔導系統每年諮商的案件從2000多成長到現在5000多件我想這個就是也是要一步一步來做地方不做我們就來協助我們用經費用計畫來希望他能夠來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12242.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12261.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
那當然我很肯定教育部有跟衛福部研議準備說將家長配合管教責任入法並納入罰則所以這個部分的進度還有呢對於這一些有沒有建立及時法務的支援機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12262.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12288.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
現在教育部在做的說要增至學務人力是否具備足夠的專業訓練來應對這一些管教事件那最後就是應該要同步檢討教師如果因公射送他的輔助辦法希望可以明確界定老師可以被協助的部分那我也希望兩個月內一同的提供給本席好不好好 謝謝市長 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12298.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12313.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
下一位 下一位許中信委員有請次長許委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12325.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12352.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
委員不好意思 您的麥克風沒開我們時間重新計算 謝謝主席 各位同仁雖然我不是本會的委員但是因為今天接受到解聘以及考核辦法新制的施行到今天剛好半年所以我一個實體的問題一個程序的問題要來請教次長您今天的報告我大概整理成這樣一個體系圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12354.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
12381.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
也就是說在管教部分如果是適當的管教根據他的目的手段等合乎比例原則這個有一般的管教跟特別管教那如果是不當的管教這個時候如果有主卻違法室友是不罰那如果沒有主卻違法室友就會有各種情形消失會議來處理那處罰如果是違法處罰也有可能會到消失會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
12382.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
12410.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
那我現在這個實體的問題先來請教您也是現在行政院長卓榮泰很頭大的霸凌它是什麼意義那我們先來了解霸凌相關的韓國有一個影集叫做鐵拳教育這個鐵拳教育它的原著它是作者 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
12411.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
12438.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
支持體罰那台灣呢不是鐵權教育而已台灣曾經有永春權教育我們某一所大學老師是對學生施以永春權所以鐵權跟永春權都出生在發生在我們的教育體系裡面那這個當然是不當的管教 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
12440.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
12467.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
當然是不當的管教不管你是用永春拳還是鐵拳並非依法的管教權所以我們不保障那麼另外一種情形就是學生霸凌學生學生霸凌學生那這個比較常見有沒有可能老師霸凌學生有沒有可能老師霸凌學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
12469.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
12491.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
我們貿易談判代表楊真尼被認定為有職場霸凌而這個霸凌的意見竟然說他打斷部署的發言然後對部署有冒犯的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
12493.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
12520.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
在不讓他表達冒犯方式不讓部署表達意見那由於我們霸凌這個概念在教育部如果認定的定義啊我任何法律名詞不懂我會去查教育部是怎麼樣界定的所以我們教育部對霸凌的定義啊對其他機關有範範例的作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
12522.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
12541.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
請問次長我們在那個霸凌霸凌防制準則裡面提到霸凌的部分是指個人或集體持續以言語文字圖畫符號肢體動作電子通訊網際網路或其他方式直接或間接對他人故意為貶抑排擠 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
12542.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
12569.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
欺負、騷擾或戲弄等行為使他人處於具有敵意或不友善環境而產生精神上、身體上、財產上之損害或影響正常學習活動之進行這是霸凌防治準則裡面這個定義我有查過對那麼楊振尼總代表他的言行有造成對整個談判代表這麼多人都過程霸凌嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
12571.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
12600.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
根據他的調查說對很多他的同仁也都用這種方式我個人認為如果把霸凌這麼廣義化的話那這個以後我們當各部會的長官都要很小心你可能講話部署沒有讓他講完你可能對部署講話比較不客氣就會構成霸凌持續性 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
12601.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
12627.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
所以我們教育部在這裡概念的拿捏非常的精準所以我相信我們老師不會去霸凌全班的同學更不可能霸凌個別的同學那這個實體的問題我們今天謝謝次長給我這個答案那如果有霸凌等這個違法的管教或是處罰就有可能會去檢舉進入校事會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
12629.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
12654.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
那麼最近屏東我們黨部反映上來說有屏東的老師因為在校這個校事會議說到調查生不如死生不如死非常痛苦所以呢這一種案件的檢舉或是申訴我們現在已經降到22%成案的進入校事會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
12659.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
12686.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
那本來是82有降下來那現在那個不受理的比例也提高有但是不受理有沒有救濟的制度啊也就是說學生家長他的投訴不受理我看到你的報告沒有講救濟的制度重複投訴的話我們基本上不受理那他如果去救濟他認為這個不公平他當然可以再去救濟沒有管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
12687.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
12716.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
我發現你的辦法裡面第四條陳情人有管到我們那個第四條有我們不受理要讓他有合法的第二次的申訴的救濟制度往上級機關可以陳情要上上級機關主管機關學校的主管機關不然的話但是學校學校按照我們辦法就是從無投訴就不受理這是程序上的第一個問題第二個我們在校事會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
12717.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
12745.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
如果做成不續聘解任他是打行政訴訟的那如果我們認為不至於解聘而只是考積的問題就回流到考核的機制所以我聽起來您的報告這樣是很清楚但是在這裡我如果是那個家長或是投訴之人我認為他續聘而只是考積我不服 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
12747.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
12770.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
這個也是向這個主管機關投訴我看你們的辦法裡面有有有第十條請那個委員可以參與我們那個第十條我們那個解聘不續聘辦法嘛回流也就是說在下次會議回流到考積三十天內可以提出可以跟那個主管機關提出陳情 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
12771.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
12789.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
像主管機關也就是說如果是國立高中的話就像教育部那麼如果是地方的縣市政府所以我如果不乎消失會議去聘但是變成對不起這部分我們請署長來回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
12795.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
12809.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
我個人研究是沒有啦家長裁法之後是沒有他不受理的部分可以啦可以再呈現但是那個已經做成決定的是沒有做成決定續聘但是考積如果家長不滿的話這個沒有辦法這個已經做成決定了沒有這個機制了那因為你們剛剛事情六個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
12814.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
12835.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
我今天是來協助我們櫃會櫃部能夠建立一個完整的機制目前是這樣因為我們台灣的法制不是只有教育部有這種機制我們法務部法規是最多的都有很健全的機制其實不受理也要有救濟然後對回流的案件家長不服也要有救濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
12836.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
12853.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
至少要二審啦這樣會比較無重一點對 這個可能因為因為那個可能還要再從長計議就是說看看看看怎麼樣子提啊那過去在這個在那個食物現場上好像大部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
12854.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
12882.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
對會反覆就是說家長他就是不能接受譬如說你記他大過他認為應該要開始要解聘他就是一直在陳情這個可能會造成現場的困擾是所以如果有二審的話可以服眾基本上因為我們校士會已經是屬於那個外聘的外聘我們他獨立他的調查一個外聘專家對所以他幾乎幾乎三個都是那三個都是調查小組都是那他做出來的決定就是決定了到教評會就決定了我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
12884.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
12904.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
消失會決定續聘然後回流到烤雞的家長不服還要讓他有救濟的途徑這樣就perfect非常謝謝次長今天的打呼也很感動您剛才講說願意去請律師來協助這些家長這些老師來打這個訴訟這個必要因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
12908.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
12933.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
已經有老師跟我反映這個制度讓他們生不如死我們會去用因公設送的部分跟地方政府再做一個討論說哪些部分是可以直接補助的因為地方政府他比較可能他在執行上比較保守啦所以我們國立的部分剛才委員提到了那十幾件其實都是我們補助的我們認為說達到那個標準我們就補助那已經有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
12934.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
12963.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
未來我們可能會針對這個制度更積極的去輔導各縣市政府來提供這些協助那如果初期地方政府認為有困難我們會用我們的計畫補助先行好的謝謝市長好謝謝不好意思我們是不是休息五分鐘給同仁上個廁所一下不好意思休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
12966.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
12966.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
鞭筍 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
12993.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
12994.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
這裏有個大廈 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13003.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13004.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
這裏有個大廈,有個大廈,有個大廈 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13043.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13044.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
阿姨 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13059.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13061.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
這張圖是一張照片的一張照片 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13090.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13101.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
看到阿姨拍的照片阿姨拍的照片阿姨拍的照片阿姨拍的照片阿姨拍的照片阿姨拍的照片阿姨拍的照片 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13119.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13119.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
謝謝大家! |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13126.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13127.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
啊 再一個部分啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13155.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13156.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13158.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13174.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
我去也要做我自己的工作,把我自己的工作一到八个月的工作做出来的工作,把这个工作做出来的工作,把这个工作做出来的工作,把这个工作做出来的工作, |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13186.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13186.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
好 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13215.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13216.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
中文字幕——YK |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13243.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13244.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
好,我們進去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13272.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13274.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
好 我們現在繼續開會下一位張雅玲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13301.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13324.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
謝謝主席 有請次長跟署長有請次長跟彭署長委員好好 次長我先跟你討論一個問題就是說今天早上呢其實大家一直在想說我們到底要不要把學前教育推廣到五歲嘛但我想教育部應該已經做了一些相關的研究是不是可以簡短的來說你們從國際研究看到的一個趨勢是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13325.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13343.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
對我想國際上大概有些國家推得很早那有些國家可能跟台灣也很像他可能是比如說像日本他們也是在六歲那他但是他對於學前教育其他的這個也是配合人口政策進行一些補助減輕負擔那台灣是比較像是這一類的 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13344.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13370.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
政策好 了解那我想喔不知道次長知不知道芬蘭是幾歲入學芬蘭好像是全年好像是七歲對然後呢其實這是這幾年呢從2006年開始啦不管是美國或是英國的劍橋大學或者是德國呢甚至是這個紐西蘭呢其實大家都在思考說到底幾歲入學對孩子來說是比較適當的特別是因為說他們認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13373.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
13400.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
這個學齡前的這個遊戲呢其實奠定了很多的基礎所以其實在很多的國家都已經證明了越晚入學其實學業的表現越好也是越適當所以這個像芬蘭就是大家說它是世界上最好的教育體系嘛而且他們在做相關的學習這個表現的檢測呢其實也都優於英國或者是美國那他們是七歲入學那這個資訊呢我也提供給次長參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
13400.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
13419.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
在未来我们要做一些学前教育到底要往前推进到多少我觉得可能还是要回到到儿童的身心发展还有这个学业表现上面怎样是最适当的年纪这个才是一个比较理性的讨论那再来呢我还是要来回来讨论有关于我们的公幼以及我们的准公幼的一个问题就是说 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
13420.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
13439.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
我們看到非常多的新聞都在講說我們補不到公幼我們報不到公幼可是事實上呢我認為這個其實是一個可能沒有很精確的說法因為我自己看到了我們在雙北雙北的部分我們在台北市就有1570個缺額在新北市有2035個缺額而這裡面呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
13444.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
13463.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
其實不外乎我們所理解的人口稠密區像是板橋永和三峽三重這些人口稠密區其實也都有缺額那為什麼會這樣這代表是說這過去的狀況其實可能已經完全不一樣可能涉及到的是人口行政區裡面的人口的改變可能有重劃區或是 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
13465.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
13485.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
交通可能交通的一個時間的考量都有可能所以我想要了解一件事情是教育部現在有沒有去掌握我們到底在兩歲專班跟三到五歲自己裡面的缺額是缺在哪一個部分大概都是都會區啦我們還有發對但是我們都會區現在全國行政區把它劃了368個行政區有在盤點說我們的那個公共化那個評價教保的那個提供的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
13495.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
13519.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
大概以80%左右如果沒有的話我們就是再加強補助如果已經超量了我們會謹慎評估但是我剛剛問的問題是說當然是兩歲專班缺還是三到五歲現在兩歲專班其實當然是兩歲專班最缺兩歲專班現在大概入園率大概是64%左右但是都會區沒有那麼高都會區大概50幾%大概50%左右就是說兩個大概只能提供在一個左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
13520.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
13536.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
對 但是就是說兩歲班專班聽起來就是需求更高嘛對不對更高更高那我現在問的問題是說在我們這個3652個區域就表示是說市場提供了很多的供給喔我們是提供了很多的供給可是市場的需求似乎沒有這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
13538.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
13560.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
這是這個數字上面的意義你的意思就是說現在已經超額提供了對 現在在特別板橋永和三峽這個地方所以我想要簡單來說就是說我們應該你剛有切說我們切到368個區域所以這裡面的需求其實是兩歲專班要來得更高 對嗎我們現在看到的是368個行政區裡面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
13563.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
13579.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
是嗎 是 對吧好 那這樣子的話我們是不是應該要從我們現在因為已經人口層面區已經發現需求沒有那麼多可是供給這麼多我們是不是應該要重新盤點一下需求地圖我們有在重新盤點因為我們找那個薛學那個我們請組長要不要簡單回應一下好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
13581.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
13601.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
他盤點的很清楚跟我也說明一下因為我們現在如果公幼招生區來看的話基本上應該是三到五的話他才比較會有缺額那兩歲的部分主要是因為他因為他基本上是只要一開放招生他就會他就滿了所以基本上這個區應該主要都是三到五的缺額的部分好至於行政區我們會持續來做一些盤點好 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
13602.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
13632.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
我想就是說因為兩歲專班的需求是非常旺盛的那這個到底應該要來怎麼做那我先來也有一個除了剛剛你們講那個需求地圖我們要做個很清楚之外呢第二個是說我有一個提醒因為大家在三到五歲的時候呢大家就會開始考量這個是不是離我家很近是不是教師的一個照顧是不是好有沒有師資特色那這個部分呢我就會希望說教育部可以來去調查到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
13634.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
13659.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
到底我們的現在3到5歲已經非常確定的是需求供給大於需求的部分這些裡面到底招不滿的原因是因為失智不符和期待還是是因為距離不夠近我覺得這個地方可能在我們需求地圖做出來之後我們還要再去去了解到說到底因為這些地方就是有空間嘛那這些空間該怎麼有沒有辦法去做調整好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
13659.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
13676.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
這個因素真的比較複雜有的是真的它的量就減少了所以社區人口就老化它就沒有那個市場所以有時候也不見得是它的本身的教學內容設備的問題有時候是很自然因為人口的變化對 但是因為都會區我們剛剛講的都會區所以我是說針對於都會區裡面我們是不是可以針對這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
13680.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
13697.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
供给大于需求的学校我们可以再去了解因为我们接下来还是要去精进我们的品质嘛过去我们是评价的部分那接下来我们应该还是要进步的来从量的提供到值的提升没错没错那第三个部分呢我也想要跟次长再来讨论就是说 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
13698.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
13727.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
我们现在呢已经提供的准攻跟非盈利是不是有提供完整揭露这个师生笔师资流动率裁罚记录申诉案件及改善情形这也还是在品质上面希望我们教育部可以来去提升因为毕竟我们都不希望是看到新闻因为说这个新闻是什么被虐了之后我们家长才知道说这个学校有状况有问题所以这个部分是不是也可以来去把 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
13727.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
13746.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
公共這個公共化的政策來去往前提升到讓它是有品質的部分我們資訊揭露目前都是依法公告就是有法律上規定要揭露的我們一定會揭露那至於我們提到的有一些項目是不是應該要納入我們會來評估好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
13746.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
13759.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
好 那這個評估大概是多久的時候可以評估出來呢一個月一個月是不是好 那就是針對我剛剛講的那幾個點好不好那如果不清楚的話我們可以事後再來討論針對哪些部分我們應該還要更明確那再來就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
13762.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
13783.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
我們對於這個電子煙持有要罰三到十萬但是因為這個煙害防治法之前在宣布的時候是說一個月的時間那我想請教就是在學校階段的部分呢我們現在準備狀況如何因為可能很快在學期開始就會開始進行了那現在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
13783.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
13806.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
在分工上齁,其實裁罰機關是衛福部嘛,應該是衛福部,對,沒錯,是衛福部對,所以說那個過去學校裡面的煙害防治啦,或者這些都是衛福部來裁罰所以今天這個流程上面會是怎麼樣,是衛福部要進到學校裡嗎,還是我們這個還要跨部會來討論那個整個處理程序對,但是因為我想齁,這個部分為什麼我今天要特別關 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
13808.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
13832.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
關心喔除了這個問題比較嚴重第二個部分是因為衛福部是說法通過一個月內所以我這個我算了一下時間可能九月十月就差不多了就到期限了啦所以我覺得這個可能要盡快去釐清我們在校園裡面的分工到底是什麼因為這個家長跟老師也都會非常關心嘛到底是進行還有學生也非常關心他的權益會不會受制基本上不會再讓學校去處理這些懲罰的流程行政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
13834.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
13861.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
但是如果學校在輔導管教過程裡面被發現持有那持有的時候他舉報應該就是衛福部開發應該是這樣只是說那個程序要怎麼走我們兩部會在做協調大概什麼時候你們會有一個進度呢大概什麼時候多久會可以有進度第一個其實是衛福部其實衛福部在主導所以我們會有一個跨部會跨部會的一個平台那個平台就是我們那個法律修了以後大概就是半年內執法要上路 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
13862.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
13885.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
可是因為他持有只開放一個月緩衝耶我看新聞是這樣子寫沒關係 這樣子好不好因為你們既然聽起來是跨部會的平台已經組成了嘛 對不對好 那這部分我們也會再來跟你們追蹤一下進度是什麼 好不好我們大概是一個月之後會再來追蹤你們好 謝謝韋子 現在我們就來努力好 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
13892.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
13907.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
我們下一位吳佩儀委員謝謝主席 我請教育部張亮萬堅次長有請次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
13911.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
13928.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
市長我們今天要進行的是這個有多位委員包括國民黨黨團提案關於國民教育法修法的詢答因為時間真的很短但是因為問題很多所以我希望盡量在時間之內表達第一個是這一次的這個國民黨版本要修第三第四第28條主要就是針對這個五歲幼兒園要來強迫入園 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
13932.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
13959.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
那麼我看了一下它這個裡面配套的這些相關的做法例如說立法說明裡面特別強調說它不要用學區制我目前看起來這個是完全不可行的那首先呢第一個還是先看一下我們整個政府對少子化的投入第一個106年到114年度我們一共增加了幼兒園增加了3922班我們台北市增加了446班那我們中央政府也補助各地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
13962.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
13973.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
105億3000多萬的這個費用經費要去新建了213所幼兒園其中有2億4000多萬是用在我們台北市那麼為什麼現在要來做5歲幼兒這個強迫入園呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
13975.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
13995.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
我們的入園率太低嗎其實我看也沒有因為目前五歲的入園率已經達到了95%所以以10年前比起來我們是提高了將近兩成反倒是兩歲專班的入園率到現在還不到六成就是說超過四成的兩歲幼兒目前是沒有入園的那麼我還是看一下第一個我覺得這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
13997.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14014.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
動機違和第二個是實務上為什麼不可行第一個是說強迫入園入校就是你必須他的義務包括了說這個要普及義務那麼在這個這個其實上屆這個立法院有兩黨團提出過我覺得現在的版本比上屆明顯更不可行 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14014.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14043.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
就是因為我剛剛講了他立法書裡面直接講說他不要用學區制會有什麼問題第一個像我們小一國民義務教育就是強迫入學所以會有分發會有學區對不對所以第一個要造冊所以我們國民教育法就是規定說造冊護證機關造冊那麼通知是誰通知鄉鎮區公所那麼如果說要強迫到5歲的話就等於新增了16萬名的新生那全國的護證機關第一個他要多造冊一次第二個全國鄉鎮區公所要多通知一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14044.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14055.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
那麼已經五歲幼兒的日人率已經達到95%以上有沒有必要再去給基層的公務員增加這一個多一個照冊多一個通知這個工作我認為這個真的應該要來討論第二個不是只有通知而已還有後面的你分發以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14062.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14083.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
分發以後是不是要追蹤你現在學校小學為例他分發以後呢那如果說學生沒有去報到怎麼辦就是要有分發那個學校來去做通知的動作對不對預期會報到好那你現在沒有化學區啊如果要五歲又強迫入園的話那到時候如果這個我們孩童沒有去報到的請問到時候誰來通知 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14085.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14111.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
你沒有化學區所以你沒有指定學校哪一個學校來通知沒有人知道完全沒有人知道再來按照我們現在強迫入學義務教育的規定除了你要追蹤分發以外萬一沒有來報到怎麼辦我們要來做加訪政府有責任既然是義務教育你要強迫入學沒有來報到你有責任要去做加訪誰來加訪這個里長里幹事或員警這個也都是有行政區有轄區的那你不分學區請問到時候是哪一區的這個里幹事 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14114.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14139.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
里長要去做加訪 南一區的員警要來協助我們教育局來去查核這不是教育局一個人的事情而已所以次長 按照如果現在這個版本 未來五歲如果強迫入園學生沒有來報到 誰要來去同時 誰去做加訪部長 次長你知道嗎對 因為按照現在強迫入學條例喔你如果是強迫入學 你修到五歲就一定要學區你不用學區 以台灣現行是沒有辦法處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14141.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14148.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
譬如說他從台北市跑到流動人口跑到台中去工作那你難道要那邊的他跑到台中去追他嗎我想這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14149.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14175.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
這個沒有辦法這樣這沒有辦法執行所以因為我們這個強迫入學這個這一套制度它已經運行了超過60年了所以按照現在這個版本不是只是年齡向下延伸你要強迫入學卻不要配套的學區制你等於是在發明新的一套義務教育的入學制度而這個制度該怎麼設計這個現在提案版本裡面完全都沒有說明也沒有去思考也沒有去設計所以教育部你們有責任啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14175.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14193.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
你不是說到時候休一休丟給地方政府到時候我們民政局怎麼處理我區中所怎麼處理沒有人知道對我會在一個禮拜後提出那個評估報告裡面把它納入不可以這樣處理然後呢不是只有學區的問題就算現在有學區好了你這個年齡你只有五歲等於大班嘛那你兩歲三歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14195.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14221.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
你沒有強迫入學好 如果這個孩子他兩歲三歲就入園了結果呢到了五歲的時候因為你強迫入學然後有學區制所以導致於他要指定被分發的學校不是他現在念的這個幼兒園所以他要被強迫轉學嗎家長沒辦法自己決定嗎我就已經在讀這個已經好好已經讀兩年了到五歲的時候你跟我說因為是義務教育你被指定抱歉你被指定分發到另外一個幼兒園你現在要強迫轉學 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14222.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14226.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
是這樣嗎是這家長的權益也會受損對所以這個通通我在現在這個法案的這個版本裡面都沒有看到說這些配套怎麼處理這實務上是不可行的我要講的是我們法案都可以討論義務教育要不要向下延伸這個題目可以討論但是目前我們手邊拿到這個版本它是不可行的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14244.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14263.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
不可行的東西然後要花費大家這麼多的時間然後部長次長等一下又答應署長又答應說請同仁再去研擬這不是增加基層公務員的負擔而已我們教育部的公務員已經很忙了拜託大家在做提案的時候可不可以自己先去思考一下可行性如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14264.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14288.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
不了解你可以去問地方政府你問教育局我們都做過明帶教育局民政局基層都可以來問啊不是只有教育部可以問地方政府啊民理代表不會去詢問諮詢嗎這個就不擺明不可行的東西好所以最後呢最後一點是我還是要拜託教育部因為比起五歲我認為兩歲專班在幼兒園是更急迫的目前政策就是朝這方面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14289.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
14299.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
那因為我們現在家長都希望可以降低兩歲專班的師生比嘛但是我總數不夠所以你師生比降不下來所以總數要去增加所以我現在如果要去增設的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
14301.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
14324.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
如果你要增設兩歲專班跟五歲專班這個兩個同時進行會有競合性我認為兩歲專班應該要優先來出我們提的沒有錯啦我們現在目標政策是希望能夠增加兩歲專班然後如果增加到夠了我們再開始降那個人數1比6就像我們3到5歲的部分以前15現在我們公幼或者是平價教保的那個準公幼的機制已經都降到1比12了 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
14325.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
14348.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
這個是要拜託教育部因為我收到家長的心聲關於幼兒園其實比較關心是兩歲專班要拜託你們再繼續努力不管是兩歲專班還有零托那個也是我們要做的連托跟零托好 謝謝次長好 謝謝是不是有請武林法委員來擔任召委 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
14367.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
14370.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
好 現在有請羅廷維 趙偉來做詢答好 謝謝主席有請張亮萬堅次長好 有請次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
14386.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
14405.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
市長有幾件事情我們現在先來順便釐清我想今天早上來排這個校事會議相關的辦法來審查有委員有提到是不是現在如果我們退回這一次的校事會議我稱之為一月這樣的版本也就是不可匿名來檢舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
14408.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
14436.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
会不会现在退回然后就会导致会回溯到最原始的版本回到可匿名来检举申诉我想我们还是要清楚明确的告诉大家关于立法委员自卷新司法我们这个立法委员的手册很清楚的了解62条行政命令的违法之救济的一个相关程序很清楚的看到第三项 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
14437.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
14459.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
第一项经通知更正或者是废除之命令原定颁布的机关应于两个月更正或废止预期未更正或废除的该命令失效简单来讲跟大家特别报告这里清清楚楚写的 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
14460.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
14480.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
很明明白白就是告訴我們現階段如果我們退回兩個月內一定要補更正要不然就是廢除如果超過兩個月才會回溯到原本可匿名檢舉的那一個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
14481.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
14502.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
可是我们已经经过两次询答不管是教育部部长以及我们现在的张亮万监次长都清楚的告诉我们六月底会收集许多的相关意见会在七月的时候来推出相关的更新版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
14503.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
14528.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
所以這根本沒有衝突這個實際上透過這些審議的過程都希望讓更新的版本能夠更加的精進另外我想請問一下這個次長你有掌握今天部長的行程嗎今天部長在地方考察在地方考察巡視巡視 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
14530.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
14548.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
我必須非常非常的...唉...遺憾然後甚至感到被欺騙憤怒喔我剛剛收到這一個貼圖我們的部長6月29號禮拜一9點50在西湖鎮10點45在普延鄉1點在彰化市 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
14558.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
14586.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
考察沒有問題我還是再次的強調關心教育沒有問題現在的問題是什麼我擔任召委部長跟我講身體不是部長跟我講說身體欠安我給予最大的體諒在排案委員會的時候我同意讓次長來代替就是因為考量他身體不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
14588.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
14617.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
上次在委員會的時候部長也親口對著直播對著麥克風說他最近身體真的不好我的體量卻換來了變成他在地方服選這不是很單純的那怎麼沒有來我台中要不要跟我預約一下台中要不要各縣市所有的巡查跑透透 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
14618.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
14647.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
我今天沒有說不准去彰化喔我支持他教育考察喔可是我的前提是怎麼會跟我說他身體不好希望不要給他排到委員會坐在那邊不是比較輕鬆嗎怎麼今天候選人還特別了公佈他要去所謂的地方考察難道沒有帶來好消息明眼人都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
14649.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
14677.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
我要譴責的是一方面告訴我擔任召委要給予體諒不要讓他來到委員會一方面在地方跑透透我剛剛還強忍著直到我問次長次長都證實他在地方走透透那請問到了地方難道這樣子他就不會身體欠安我還是要再一次強烈的抗議 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
14680.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
14709.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
今天我們排案的事情所有的委員可以有意見可以不支持但是教育部作為主管機關竟然沒有到由次長代替校事會議相關的辦法關係到整個教育體制關係到所有的孩子部長沒有到配合著候選人來發這樣子的一個圖卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
14711.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
14736.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
告訴昭偉他身體欠安我想在這樣子的一個過程當中讓我看到對於部長的體諒卻化為欺騙我們譴責我也要再一次的在這邊特別拜託次長校事會議我上一次特別提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
14738.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
14758.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
要支持教師在整個行政程序調查的過程中給予支持但是部長還有教育部次長在後面面對所謂的媒體詢問的時候有說教育部支持老師你納入法律的資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
14760.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
14780.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
目前規劃法律的資源具體包括的內容有哪些可不可以請次長說一下我想這是因為我們在公聽會跟座談會裡面也提到包括在詢答的時候有委員建議所以我說我們會納入考量那可能的因為現在還要跟地方政府談我們過去教師諮商輔導系統也是擬定計劃之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
14784.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
14807.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
然後呢去到各地縣市政府去推然後一個縣市一個縣市成立然後我們把那個經營比較好的縣市然後再來匯中報告請其他縣市能夠做那我相信法律諮詢也是一樣那現行的資助裡面其實是有的譬如說它因公社送是可以補助的這部分我們國立的體系的高中職也遇過 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
14808.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
14837.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
因公社送可是問題是行政調查的過程的陪伴也需要嘛所以輔佐人制度但是我們在乎的是請了輔佐人專業的陪伴有可能會有費用的產生啊對不對那到底是法律諮詢而已嗎那區公所就有提供啊還是協助撰寫書狀媒合律師補助訴訟費用以外的等等陪伴也有可能你知道諮詢費大概法律諮詢啊公定價你知道一個小時多少嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
14839.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
14864.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
大概不曉得大概幾千塊五千這些費用我們上次也在講啊光是校事會議的相關審查請委員喔都還要要求家長會來幫忙募款出資那現在教師呢教師過程中輔佐人的陪伴萬一輔佐人也就是專業律師要求一個小時五千呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
14866.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
14891.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
那你說他是不適合你的教師那就算了他萬一是還他的清白我們上次有講嘛還清白我們最後呢要把相關的不管是本縫研究家籍那這些過程中的支出還有身心俱疲誰來補助所以次長我想問嘛一個小時假設五千啊那這個行政的過程當中輔助人萬一跟他收費誰來賠 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
14893.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
14914.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
誰來給予補助我想有關這個輔佐人制度要怎麼樣子來落實需不需要有一些經費上的補助或者法律諮詢的支持的系統地方政府在研議的時候我們要怎麼樣來協助這個我們都會把委員的意見跟相關的意見都納入我們來盡速來推動我們也很急啦希望說明年能夠上路啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
14914.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
14942.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
所以我真的希望這些東西不要只是喊喊的不要只是媒體喊話他要有一個具體的項目法律諮詢很好啊大家都有啊我的辦公室也有提供法律諮詢歡迎來找我啊可是問題是這樣子而已嗎只是諮詢有用嗎這個過程的陪伴有費用的產生誰來給予幫忙這個我們一定要好好的來探討另外今天我們現在在為了這個國教向下延伸到五歲啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
14943.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
14969.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
在提到這個部分之前我有幾個訴求要再一次的再提供喔第一我們不斷啊之前都有在講公幼教師的工作獎金來設置現在網路上有很多人連署啊請求公立契約禁用人員應比照公立教師設立考積獎金的制度這個部分國教署 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
14971.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
14984.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
能不能給予具體的一個回應在回應的過程我再補一下我也接到許多現在很多的公立 教保員 幼師的陳情待會這兩張的陳情書我也要轉交給我們黃副委員署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
14989.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15018.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
希望在爭取公立幼兒園教保員在簽調的加分項目的權益他的核心訴求就是落實教保平權正是簽調的困境目前簽調的困境現行制度的不公身份的不對等忽視人身的安全這些他都有具體的寫出來待會我也希望提供但是我想問一下署長有掌握這樣子的一個狀況嗎第二現職幼教工作者向我反映 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15020.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15047.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
教保員取得教師資格後實習制度所面臨的困境教保員已經在幼兒園第一線工作多年了甚至累積超過五年以上的教學班級經營親師溝通這樣的經驗然而在教師資格考試後仍需在進行半年全時的教育實習所以他認為這個部分是不是能夠具體的回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15048.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15068.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
能不能夠還有我剛剛講到的設立考積獎金的一個制度這個部分剛才委員提到的就是教保員如果考上那個幼教師他有一個實習半年這個我們已經有在研擬這個部分看要是用一般教學人士來替代這個目前就有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15069.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15097.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
目前就可以了我是希望說能夠更清楚明確啦今天他已經教學多年具體了嘛他今天不是新手一個嘛對他不用再兼顧他六個月對對所以我是說這都是第一線教師教保員不斷在反映如果是限職的教保員是有的是可以的但是我剛剛講的還是有民眾在陳情所以這個問題還是希望那個委員的陳情書可以給我們我再麻煩你那這個考機獎金制度的部分呢我們也是一樣我們在給委員那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15098.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15119.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
因為真的等很久了啦是不是考級獎金制度一個月內給我回覆好好不好那再來我要講的就是說今天我們一直在努力剛剛也有委員在講這一個我們要效仿歐美歐美可能芬蘭說他的這個國民鄉下教育是在7歲那我講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15121.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15149.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
歐美甚至美國歐洲我們在探討他們的教學環境他們大概三四點以後啊就放學了那怎麼不全學就體制不同嘛我們要參考的是鄰近周邊亞洲國家嘛所以我就已經多次的在講韓國剛剛也有委員講到韓國我就再問一下次長韓國目前向下延伸教育五歲這個部分他已經修了沒 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15151.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15175.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
他說2010年2010年就休了嘛對不對所以還有委員在舉錯誤的案例在講說沒有啦韓國現在也是7歲也是6歲沒有啊我們查到的資料跟立法院公告的資料韓國2010年就執行了啊不過委員就像你講的就是說各國的情況不一樣不一樣我都知道但是我們先講錯誤資訊啦一定要把這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15178.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15188.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
台灣目前是減輕加配合少子化政策我知道你們有在做所以今天我們要講的是政府的法令已經在執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15189.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15208.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
我們把目標更加的明確該強迫的要強迫不該強迫的我們可以來討論但是訴求是什麼訴求還是一樣在五歲的時候義務教育真正落實到學費不是只有學費而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15209.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15220.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
我們一直在講現在只有學費而已嗎你只有補學費而已耶所以其他的費用呢所以我們看到這些義務教育向下延伸我也要問啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15222.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15245.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
很多人講不要倉促修法結果不好意思國民義務教育向下延伸討論了不是十年是數個十年這個不倉促也太不倉促了吧這涉及的層面當然很廣我知道有課綱有教師有教室有設備有經費等等但是這些年 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15247.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15264.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
只有公聽會而已嗎教育部難道有真的痛定思痛好好的來馬拉松式的來探討該怎麼樣具體的來增加我們能夠把這一個法規補上的最後一個漏洞嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15264.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
15281.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
報告委員我們10年透過這個公共化教保平價名額的那個計畫我們的公幼費利幼兒園的興建690幾間10年增加690我相信所以所以今天才要探討就是因為看到有進度了 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
15283.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
15307.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
不是只是說倉促我們今天就來討論這個法令嘛關我自己的選區我在擔任議員的時候我們公脫公幼不斷的在興建這也符合每一個縣市首長正在做的事情啊我們也剛剛透過你講的十年又增加了六百多嘛所以這個部分我們都希望這個應該要納入到今天的探討什麼叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
15310.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
15333.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
倡訴沒有討論取消討論這才是真正忽視了我們現在正在面對的一個問題再來我也要講你們說跟地方政府探討地方政府說什麼說要兩歲專班他們比較需要目前家長對嘛要兩歲專班嘛彭署長我是不是也跟你開過協調會有關於小朋友滿三歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
15337.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
15358.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
一滿三歲他就要離開幼稚園這件事情來做一個想辦法延你可不可以到當學期結束再來你們給我的回應是什麼已經從二歲延到三歲了如果再讓他到當學期截止會影響到兩歲小朋友的入學的進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
15359.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
15387.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
那也是兩年前的事囉我們一直在講兩歲專班到現在兩歲專班的興建已經出現了很大的瓶頸已經基本上學校相關的一些可以使用的校舍空間基本上都沒有了基本上都已經沒有了我自己也一直在呼籲啊就是沒有場地兩歲專班也好公托公幼的興建已經出現瓶頸了 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
15388.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
15411.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
所以我們沒辦法再等下去啦我們也希望透過別的方式能夠來讓所謂的五歲義務教育多一點真正實質的幫助年輕家庭讓他們減少支出可是今天呢全部被抹黑攻擊說倉促啦修了數十年叫倉促啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
15413.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
15441.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
說這些花大錢啊教育本來就應該花大錢啊我感謝這些委員每天幫我宣傳我在幫所有的大學生爭取學代免利息幫所有的小孩子爭取營養午餐爭取營養午餐更好吃幫所有的人來爭取現在的補助甚至是幼照法修法讓年輕家庭減緩更多的一些壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
15442.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
15461.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
教育本來就應該花大錢更何況是砸在我們的人民身上砸在未來的孩子身上很可惜待會諮詢完以後我們就要結束今天的會議因為我們沒辦法進入逐條討論我們被沒收了討論所以我還是要再一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
15462.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
15483.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
跟大家呼籲剛剛次長你也講啊現在目前五歲的就學率是96是公立跟私立對加起來基本上已經是共識了小朋友進去讀書已經是大家基本都要做的事情了但是如果強迫入學的話但是強迫入學大家可以探討嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
15484.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
15513.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
所以可以不要這個部分入法我們待會來討論可是被沒收了但目前你也知道我一直在跟你強調我的中心思考是什麼減緩家庭的支出讓他們減少一切生活支應的負擔這是我們的目標大家就要討論嘛今天我也沒有說一定要強迫入學入法大家要討論啊結果被沒收很可惜我還是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
15515.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
15534.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
您一直主張您是次長也是我立法委員的學長我想孩子就是未來這是您一直不斷的在呼籲的我們一起朝這個方向來努力也希望教育部能夠提出因應的措施以上好 謝謝謝謝羅廷偉 趙偉的質詢請次長回座 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
15545.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
15549.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
好辛苦了翁小玲委員今天的壓軸有請好謝謝主席我們這邊有請張亮政次謝謝次長謝謝委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
15568.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
15588.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
好 次长你好今天很遗憾我们的教育部部长竟然撒谎明明说身体不好这个罗廷伟委员罗廷伟召委同意他可以在家里可以就是不用来立法院接受备询但是没想到他跑到智章化小学和一些地方的小学都去巡视了 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
15589.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
15607.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
这由此可见我们正义要部长是完全不在乎我们全国的教师的权益明明今天审查了这么重要的法案不管是讨论这个解聘办法里面的校师会议的存废与否那么以及就是国民教育法就没想到我们的正义要部长竟然可以撒这样的谎 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
15607.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
15633.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
我建议就是我们的召委下次郑英耀部长他要提出这个病假一定要减负这个病假的医生证明否则的话这藐视国会莫胜如此好那么我今天来这边质询其实有一个题目是想请教政策的就是我们知道其实教育部在去年年底为了要缓解教师荒所以就宣布从今年的元旦起全面的调高 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
15634.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
15651.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
公立的高中以下的兼任以及待课教师的正课终点费20%那么这个政策当然本席以及基层的老师都给予支持可是呢教育部的德政似乎也是只做半套我们晓得现在很多的这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
15652.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
15674.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
第八节课的课后辅导以及国小儿童课后照顾班老师的终点费却没有在这一波当中一起调整那本席在这里也接受到很多的这个课后照顾班老师们的澄清那希望是不是可以的同步也调高他们的终点费 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
15674.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
15690.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
那麼事實上這種放學之後其實老師的付出也不會比在上課的時間的老師的付出要來得少但是卻做這樣的一個不同的對待差別待遇真的在很多的老師的心中是很難吞得下這口氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
15691.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
15716.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
所以本席想了解就是說因為我知道你們教育部在6月9號國教署也邀請了各縣市政府針對國小課後照顧班的薪水動賬一案有召開會議可是這場會議好像似乎是沒有一個討論的結論所以這邊是不是可以請次長告訴我們我跟委員報告一下就是當時在做這個終點費的調整是以課內就是說為什麼是以課內就是說這是完全是由 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
15717.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
15732.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
政府負擔嘛但是因為課照班他是要跟家長收費那每一個縣市政府他會有不同的標準我們當然希望我們也收到很多陳情我們當然也希望各縣市政府能夠依照我們的20%來調升但是是不是適合我們統一宣布 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
15733.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
15753.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
各縣市政府一定要按照我們這個條因為那個費用那個是跟家長收的所以當時是因為這樣子所以沒有納入統一宣布那事後確實也收到很多老師教授團體他們的陳情所以這部分我們也跟地方縣市政府6月9號當時也找他們也會再繼續溝通因為這個部分有的縣市已經條囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
15754.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
15777.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
像台北市这五根台北市都已经调整了新竹市 新竹县 花莲县 台北市都已经决定超过20%台南也跟进调升了11%那么所以呢基本上就是说现在其实教育部就是领头羊因为教育部其实所就是你们主管还有一些小学嘛比如说国立大学的附设小学这个部分可能是由教育部来负责主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
15778.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
15803.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
所以如果說教育部在政策上面認為應該要調的話那我覺得應該要當領頭羊包括我們甚至修改政策的辦法對 政策我們絕對支持但是因為那屬於地方自治的相關的法規要點我們不太好意思說直接就宣布就叫他們一定都要跟著我們調這個又侵犯他們的一些前線所以今天這次的意思是說從教育部的角度來看是支持說是應該要調我們這樣政策上支持更何況現在我們知道這個萬物極長 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
15804.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
15822.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
各方面的费用都涨水电费然后其他的一些费用所以其实我想合理的调整合理的反应家长们也能够谅解政策上我们支持但是这个要点的权限在地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
15822.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
15835.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
所以我們也跟地方討論說很多縣市都提了他們可不可以提供這個是這個部分市長您說的我不是很理解因為兒童課後照顧服務班與中心設立及管理辦法這個辦法應該是主責機關還是在教育部是你們有權責去修這個法規所以我們也會跟各縣市在一起來會商 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
15842.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
15854.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
好 那麼本席當然在這邊其實有幾個要求啦第一個就是說希望是不是你們能夠盡速再排下一次的協商會議因為你們說6月9號抗議協商會議之後不曉得國教署署長你們有在安排下一次的會議了嗎相關負責我請署長來回答是 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
15861.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
15864.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
所以本席希望說你們能夠儘速的在七月份就趕快召開第二次的協商會議而且也可以邀請基層的工會代表一起出席參加可以嗎?沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
15885.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
15906.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
还有就是说有没有可能可以在9月1号之前就完成刚刚讲的那个办法的修法我们尽量来学习上面就是压了一个就是终点费最多只能400元但你如果要调整的话似乎就是必须要调高不然的话当然就要情商是不是各个县市政府也能够来补贴这个中间的差额 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
15907.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
15926.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
因為在你的辦法裡面基本上是明定教師的終點費上限是400元而且不能夠佔整個總收費的七成那這個部分的話是希望教育部也能夠同步來修法那麼總之就是本期希望我們不要是一個台灣有多個不同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
15927.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
15950.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
制度有些縣市都已經承諾了說要調漲那但是有些縣市政府包含教育部也還沒有承諾說可以就是說要全面的來調漲課後照顧班老師們的終點費這個部分的話我們也不希望說以後課後照顧班老師出現人潮荒人才荒都找不到老師我們來努力啦好不好盡量來協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
15952.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
15973.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
希望你們能夠做到 這都是照顧老師了要有好的老師 然後家長才願意生小孩因為不然的話 老師找不到 那小孩當然也跟著受苦所以這邊本身希望教育部能夠盡快的去處理這個議題好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
15981.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
15981.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
委員的詢問謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16005.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16021.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
今日僅進行詢答國民教育法部分條文相關修正草案令定期具具審查現在處理臨時提案今天有委員提出臨時提案議案請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
16024.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
16042.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
案有建議校士會議設立的初衷是為了處理不適任教師保障學生受教權但制度的理想與實務運作已出現落差導致校園出現大量檢舉與濫訴校教師也缺乏法律協助與系統支持以對第一線教師造成沉重負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
16043.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
16059.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
教育部未回應因實務運作衍生校園爭議所以已於2015年1月12日進行相關辦法修正建立案件分流刪除匿名檢舉新增輔助人等配套措施為教育現場已出現教師人心惶惶 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
16061.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
16088.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
甚至发生憾事的状况教育部应以7月会诊相关资料后尽速检讨校师会议制度于两个月内1.进行相关办法之修正并提出第三方调查机制之规划其成2.与法务部共同研拟保障教师依法管教权建立滥诉及教师对等救济之措施以尊重教师专业判断 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
16089.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
16098.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
強化融合教育及專業支持 落實家長共同管教責任等精進作為讓相關制度越來越好 成為教師的後盾 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
16110.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
16138.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
請問機關有無補充說明或意見我們原則上大方向同意不過文字上希望能夠做一些修正就在第二段的時候第三行在於兩個月內修正為於九月底前那更清楚那第一點呢是進行那部分我們寫研議相關辦法去修正並提出第三方調查機制之規劃期程那第二點的部分呢是做一些文字修正就是教育部應就 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
16139.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
16166.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
保障教師依法管教權建立防濫術或檢舉及完善教師救濟制度等事項逗點研議相關制度然後分號涉及法治事項則得邀請法務部提供法治協助據點就這個部分做文字修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
16167.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
16180.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
好因為都有溝通討論過了一討論後修正文字通過臨時提案處理完畢報告委員會今日議程處理完畢現在休息週三上午九點繼續開會 |