| IVOD_ID |
17522 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17522 |
| 日期 |
2026-06-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
公聽會-2026061146 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
「高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或資遣辦法」及「公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法」公聽會 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
公聽會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
22 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
教育及文化委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會公聽會（事由：「高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或資遣辦法」及「公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法」公聽會） |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-06-15T08:33:38+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-06-15T12:18:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:44:22 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d17a144da3b27896f144cd8b23c89c68c6dbd1a1f1ae5021666f76aa3a4ecb0f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-06-15T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會公聽會（事由：「高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或資遣辦法」及「公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法」公聽會） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:33:38 - 12:18:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1733.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1759.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
好 現在開會現在進行高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘 停聘或支遣辦法及公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法的一個公聽會那我們現在呢所有的媒體 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1760.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1785.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
網友國人都非常關注鐵拳教育這部韓劇在台灣引發的關注我認為不是只有關注這個韓劇更應該來了解為什麼會有這樣子的戲劇背後所帶來的意義是什麼我看到的是教學現場長期累積的焦慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1787.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1813.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
還有老師面對學生的暴力家長的投訴行政的程序社會的輿論往往需要承擔的時候卻缺少足夠的權限跟支持在台灣我們沒有像劇中一樣的教權保護局台灣有的是校事會議它原本是回應社會對不適任教師的處理不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1814.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1840.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
以及對於家長對於校園申訴機制不信任而設計的一個制度但是實際上我們看到了希望透過一個正式透明的機制保障學生權益處理嚴重個案的時候實務上校事會議也確實在一定的程度上造成了整個師生的對立 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1843.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1865.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
我們更希望隨著近幾年來案例的累積爭議浮上檯面第一線的教師家長團體學生團體學者專家都提出了不同的憂慮質疑一方面我們看到教師界普遍感受到校師會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1867.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1889.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
在收案的门槛偏低投诉的成本几乎偏零让许多原本可以透过亲私沟通协调学校内部辅导一般的行政程序的过程来处理的纷争纷纷被直接推到了最高度严肃的究责程序在这样的情况之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1890.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1916.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
老師面對的每一件投訴都要承受身份被標記名譽受損長期不穩定的一個壓力另一方面家長與學生團體則擔心將門檻設得太高會不會又讓真正受傷害的孩子無法被看到所以讓原本期待的救濟的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1918.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1945.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
形同巨文在這樣的背景之下也促成了本日的公聽會我們今天要討論的提綱我們討論的提綱就現況來做一個診斷我們低齡化與高齡化風險的數據來了解第二教師和理管教的安全港為何老師不敢管 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1947.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1973.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
为何会有防御性的教学来做探讨第三 校师会议的分流日常争议以及重大案件如何去切开来谈第四 重大师对生暴力不被弱化相对的我们也要来讨论生对师 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1974.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1998.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
如何兼顧防範爛數以及不能夠輕重我們都希望綜合的了解相關多元的校園問題第五家長的責任還有高風險的學生如何轉介誰來補位第六國際的借鏡 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1999.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2024.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
要怎麼來解讀我們鄰近國家相關處理的方式所以我在諮詢過程當中我也不斷地強調不要只看鐵拳教育的戲劇更要看2023年韓國所發生的自殺案件所後續衍生出來的韓國修法教權相關的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2026.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2054.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
首先我們要來介紹在場我們的專家學者依簽到的順序來做介紹全國教育產業總工會林惠榮理事長謝謝台中市教育產業工會林碩傑理事長台灣教育產業工會 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2057.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2079.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
李雅琴秘書長全國教師工會總聯合會張永清理事國教行動聯盟王漢陽理事長屏東縣教育產業工會法務中心吳宗勳副執行長 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2083.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2110.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
人本教育文教基金會馮喬蘭執行長高雄市教師職業工會政策中心任懷民主人全國代理暨代課教師產業工會黃湘仙理事長全國家長會長聯盟陶連生理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2113.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2142.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
全國家長團體聯盟彭淑燕輔導理事長社團法人宜蘭縣教師會葉明正副理事長接著介紹政府機關代表教育部政務次長張料萬堅教育部國民及學前教育署署長彭復原 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2146.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2160.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
其餘列席的機關代表請參閱名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報紀錄為了能夠讓大家順利表達意見我們做如下的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2162.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2179.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
每位发言时间为7分钟在第6分钟的时候我们会有铃声提醒7分钟结束会有一个结束铃声学者专家发言顺序以前到先后的顺序为准现场发言及书面的资料立法院会做成记录刊登公报 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2180.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2207.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
立法委员如果有本院委员要发言请于上午10点来主席台登记我们会在会议中安插穿插这个安排那并依登记的顺序发言上午10时以后登记的委员安排在专家学者发言完毕后再按登记的顺序如需提前我们视情况再斟酌处理 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2209.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2221.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
現在我們要先請教育部張亮萬堅次長就現行的規定執行的狀況相關的問題來提出說明時間五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2231.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2254.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家好我想這一次受邀列席櫃員會公聽會來進行專題報告那麼緊究高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或資遣辦法以及公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法來提出報告那麼108年教師法修法的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2255.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2283.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
是以增進教師教學品質維護學生權益為核心目標因此解聘辦法是依教師法第29條授權訂定作為落實兒少權益保障以及確保教學品質的基石那麼解聘辦法及考核辦法在今年的1月12號有做了修正那麼修正的重點包括建立輕師溝通預防機制檢舉案件受理的程序刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2284.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2302.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
匿名檢舉 明定保密義務與洩密責任那麼建立案件的分流機制也新增了輔助人參與的機制等等那麼這一次呢此外呢 本次的修正呢也同步的來強化配套措施包括配合增能訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2303.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2323.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
落實新制的實施那麼本部在2月5號函請韓文各主管機關有關受理的流程圖QA的懶人包那麼提供實務現場運用來參考為了保障教師權益在今年的4月17號也修正發布了教師法第25條明定教師於暫時 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2325.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2354.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
停聘接受调查后如果最终未受解聘并恢复聘任者补发停聘期间本薪及学术研究加给以充分维持教师生活所需进一步保障教师的权益那么解聘办法以及考核办法在今年1月12号公布新制实施后约4个月的时间我们统计的资料显示投诉的案件呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2355.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2366.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
是202件那麼其中進入校師會議調查的是45案那麼佔投訴案件的22%那麼對照修法前同期間114年1到4月的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2370.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2394.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
當時投訴的案件高達448案那麼其中進入校事會議調查的有366案那麼佔投訴案件的82%那麼請各位可以參閱我們的書面報告的第5頁那麼也就是說從數據來看去年同期1到4月有448案投訴那麼今年呢剩下202案減少了55% |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2397.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2414.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那麼去年的448案裡面有366案進入消事會議那麼今年1到4月的202案只剩下45案進入消事會議如果從進入消事會議調查的同期間相比是從366案巨降為45案減少了86% |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2418.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2430.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那麼不受理的部分我們增加了這個匿名不受理也就是說去年的448案裡面不受理的佔18%有82案那麼今年1到4月是202案裡面有66案不受理佔33%那麼其他有45%分流所謂的進入這個考核的辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2442.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2468.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那麼我們從這個數據來看新制透過受理判斷以及案件分流的機制進入消事會的調查比例啊已經有明顯的大大的降低那目前相關的資料我們持續在收集中那麼教育部也持續觀察制度實際運作的情況那麼評估各項配套措施以及執行的成效那麼作為制度的檢討以及精進參考那麼積極來保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2469.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2498.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
而造权益并且兼顾学生学习权以及教师的教学品质同时希望能够有效解决实务运作衍生的争议我们共同来维护校园的教育品质那么以上简要的报告敬请各位委员指教谢谢好机关代表说明完毕相关书面资料请各位参阅并列入公报记录接下来我们要请学者专家发言 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2499.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2515.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
首先先請林慧龍理事長謝謝有請你跟現場所有的學術專家特別報告我們兩邊都可以選擇都沒有關係謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2523.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2541.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
主席還有張遼萬堅次長還有國教署彭署長各位先進大家早安我是全國教育產業總工會理事長林慧榮針對剛剛教育部的報告我想先做一些回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2544.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2564.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
第一個部分是在教師法整個修法過程中我們也行文教育部要求把修法的過程修法歷史修法的會議紀錄來做公開但是教育部不願意公開到底怎麼修到現在今天這樣子的程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2568.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2582.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
教育部不敢公開那我想今天委員在這邊所有教育部官員也在這邊希望可以列入會議紀錄請教育部公開所有教師法修法的歷程再來第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2585.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2613.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
剛剛的報告裡面有提到教育部的報告裡面提到家長應該配合學校的輔導管教措施這個並沒有看到任何的法規裡面有寫家長應配合我沒有看到也沒有入法今天之所以輔導管教這麼困難教育部寫了這句話我不知道放在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2616.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2620.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
然後每年卻要老師去參加家庭教育的研習 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2621.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2647.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那再來教育部所沾沾自喜的從82%降到22%是因為老師已經採取防禦性的教學移送成績考核然後做有罪推定的調查我想這個是基層遇到最困難的也是現實我希望教育部面對現實 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2649.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2668.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那在教育部仍然為匿名檢舉開了一個後門全國的老師在社群媒體被公審被網路霸凌從1月到現在尤其是過年我沒有看到教育部任何官員出來幫老師講一句話再來學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2674.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2696.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
跟家長利用社群平台先汙名化老師然後引發後續的媒體效應造成老師被移送校事會議的處理這也是一種零成本的爛數也是造成今天之所以為什麼臉書脆所有的社群媒體只要學生不滿意家長不滿意就上去寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2700.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2724.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
學生在推上面寫說請問有人知道怎麼把半島弄走嗎網友在底下回應1999往死裡打搞幾件事就分幾通打一件案子一件案子這樣不斷地從國教署不斷地從縣市政府這樣一直發到學校要我們去做調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2725.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2754.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
可是教育部卻沒有一個任何防範家長或學生惡意濫訴老師或者是深對私家庭家長對老師的一個霸凌跟採取機制至今我們沒有看到有人出來挺老師老師因為害怕被投訴而不敢管教這就是防禦性教學我想跟各位講的是為什麼不敢管教 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2756.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2781.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
講一下案例 更換座位不滿意被投訴老師講話被大聲被投訴 沒有選上班長被投訴自己逞強是翻撥筆跳不聽老師的勸阻也被投訴作業不寫老師關心寫在聯絡部被投訴嚴重干擾同學影響上課進度站立反省老師的要求後面還是被投訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2783.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2810.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
教育部所說的在學生輔導管教上面如果學生有攻擊的行為有這樣子的行為老師可以做強制的措施也可以請學務處我想問一下各位在現場你們都有在現場過嗎你是第一線的學務人員嗎你是學務主任學務組長嗎全校如果有50班我請問你每個老師都問他一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2812.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2831.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
他不用做事啊來得及嗎那現實中就是學生不斷的攻擊老師有這樣子的案例老師不敢管學校不敢管並且要求老師要吞進去老師要正向管教用愛的教育我請問你我應該被打嗎老師應該被打嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2837.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2866.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那我還想說的是當老師收到第一份的調查通知配合調查各位可能都不是收到這種通知的人他已經先死過一次他會無限的懷疑自己為什麼我這麼認真我這麼用心的對待孩子我卻被家長投訴在那一刻是已經死一次更不用講後面所有的調查完全是羞辱式有罪推定式的 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2869.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2882.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
再來我們想講的是校事會議在做修正之後第9條雖然校長是在會前會是沒有投票權可是我們想說的是各位知道行政程序嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2884.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2905.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
組長去勾選這個委員的時候 要經校長合張啊所有的成員都是校長聘的嘛裁員、裁判、求證、旁證都是校長聘的嘛這樣子怎麼會公平再來是匿名檢舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2907.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2933.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
有罪推定是進考核那如果考核會決意不懲處這一個案子就會在縣市政府往返數個月羞辱老師數個月直到有懲處為止我們也遇到過從深屆不夠退回記過不夠退回大過這樣往返十幾次所謂的行政減量在哪裡羞辱老師嘛羞辱行政嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2935.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2961.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
再來我們希望的是廢除校士會議拯救台灣的教育為什麼呢 因為在教師法第29條當初在修正的時候根本沒有授權教育部可以訂定所謂的校士校士會議 校士校園事件處理會議那這一個校士會議的調查報告是可以凌駕教評會的所以我們希望可以廢除 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2963.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2983.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那最後我想希望有這四項那也列入會議紀錄就是建構教師的權益保護法然後輔導管教列入法律位階然後教師解聘辦法應該要另立專法那保護老師就是保護學生照顧老師就是照顧學生謝謝大家好謝謝理事長下一位我們有請林碩傑理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2995.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3020.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
有請 謝謝主席 各位先進大家早安我是台中市教育產業工會也是台中市直轄市教師會現任理事長林碩傑另外我也是全教廠目前的副理事長今天很高興有這個機會來參加這個公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3022.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3029.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那一開始這時間有限制我先借用這個公聽會要向教育部進行一個抗議 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3030.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3038.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
教育部在115年5月12日透過一份公文叫台教授國部置地1155401762A號函發函給各縣市教師會就是要呈報推薦所謂的課程審議會的教師組織代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3053.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3073.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
這份公文他發給了所有縣市的教師會可是他卻唯一漏掉了台中市直轄市教師會我們在這邊藉這個機會向教育部表達最嚴重的抗議包括市長跟署長都是來自於台中會有產生這樣的一個狀況其實我們是覺得蠻諷刺的 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3079.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3102.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
希望這樣的抗議能夠為將來的後續的狀況做一些改善接下來進入今天的主題我們要先跟大家報告108年教師法修正公佈之後其實當初我們全教廠曾經有召開記者會強烈抗議教師法二修 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3104.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3125.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
接下來教育部在109年6月28號就已經頒布了所謂的解聘辦法中間過程有沒有經過一定的協商機制或是透過各種方式來研商或是諮詢跟大家報告其實以全教產來講的話是只有一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3127.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3152.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那這是在哪裡呢就是108年8月30號星期五下午3點在國教署霧峰召開的唯一一場的研商會議那這場研商會議他要討論什麼你知道就是解聘辦法專審會組成運作辦法以及學校教師諮商輔導支持體系建立辦法草案的一個研商會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3153.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3182.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那教育部過教署在暑假的最後一天辦了這一場研商會議下午三點喔星期五下午三點要討論三個辦法事先沒有提供任何的會議資料會後把所有的資料全部都收回去接下來就一切歸於寧靜什麼都沒有發生一直到隔年109年就公布了所謂的解聘辦法各位這個不是黑箱那什麼叫做黑箱 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3183.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3207.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
當然說他又找這個應該是全教總啦或是全教會有協商過啦那這也是密室協商啊完全沒有找全教廠啊你利用暑假最後一天星期五下午來召開一個所謂的研商會議一次要討論三個辦法而且非常重大的辦法影響教師權益非常嚴重的三個辦法會前沒有會議資料會後全部資料全部收回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3214.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3223.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
什麼都沒有 沒有發生一直到隔離109年 這個辦法就公佈了開始危害所有的老師所有的老師都受害各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3227.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3244.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
你覺得嚴重嗎 我覺得蠻嚴重的所以我們全教產在109年5月5號就有發言給教育部告訴教育部說你的校事會議應該要全章刪除各位這有電子公文啊這個都絕對不是虛構的當初109年我們就已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3250.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3265.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
很明白的告訴大家這個東西一定會造成教育現場的災難有沒有的確是你很多團體包括你人板你就是要消滅不適合教師可是今天過頭了過頭了你讓整個教育現場變成一個非常嚴重的重大災難 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3274.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3299.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
我們的電子公文其實這個都查得到了教育部你可以去查你的電子公文有沒有我們全教程發的公文教育部一直到112年就開始展開所謂的延上會議要來修正所謂的解併辦法為什麼教育部也發現說這個解併辦法真的發生很多重大的瑕疵各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3301.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3320.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
後來我們全校長在被邀請那時候很多的場的會議我才被邀請去參加那因為這個過程太多我講一個就是所謂的匿名檢舉各位所謂的匿名檢舉在當初的那麼多次的會議102.1多次會議其實只有我們全校長主張刪除匿名檢舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3323.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3350.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那今天教育部上禮拜另外一個次長洋洋得意的說我們現在的這個案件送試校校試會議案件降到百分之二十二各位這是有黑數的教育部沒有告訴你說他的統計是國立學校嗎還是包括所有的公立學校可是你從教育部今天的第五頁的這個資料你可以看到他送考會有九十一案那在校試會有四十五案那代表什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3352.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3379.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
解聘辦法第九之一的話其實讓很多的這個匿名案件啊送到了這個考核會去所以還是存在啊匿名檢舉還是存在那我要告訴大家就是說今天不管是解聘辦法或者是教育部的這個所謂的學校訂定不當管教學生注意事項其實這些都應該要另立專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3381.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3403.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
另立專法我們也很高興看到現在已經有委員他們準備要針對解閉法另立一個專法因為教育部已經沒有辦法改變這一切了那怎麼辦呢因為教育部受到各種壓力教育部也不會一改他只要保護學生不願意保護老師各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3406.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3433.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
這個部分我真的要嚴重抗議我們看到韓國他們對老師的教權的保護有所謂的教權保護司法那台灣有沒有台灣沒有台灣沒有這個部分我要嚴重抗議針對教育部今天的這一份所謂的修正條文我要把它撕毀還給教育部還給教育部還給教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3435.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3458.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
解編辦法立立專法謝謝好我們非常感謝林理事長我們請醫事人員協助一下謝謝您的發言 謝謝下一位林一錦委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3469.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3476.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
好 謝謝主席今天各位關心台灣教育發展的夥伴們大家早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3477.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3502.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
校士會議改革是本席長期關注的議題那一直以來也跟很多的教師團體有並肩作戰那去年5月我就召開記者會探討這個爛數的解方那這個會期初又分別透過記者會跟質詢來督促教育部拿出實際的改革的策略跟成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3503.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3509.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那我想除此之外我同時也注意到2024到2025年消失會議的受理跟調查跟完成調查案件數有769件那當中直接派員調查的有511件那組成調查小組有258件 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3523.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3544.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
最終停解聘是26件這個數字讓我們進一步思考接受調查跟最終真的遭到解聘的老師比例是懸殊的可是如果因為接受調查而停職那就會直接影響教師的薪水跟生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3545.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3574.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那如果沒有受到解聘跟最終停聘的處分那就應該要將本心跟學術的研究佳績補回來所以因此我本席也針對教師法進行修正那今年的4月17號也已經獲得三讀通過可以把學術研究佳績補回來那談這些其實不是爭功搶勞而是要讓在場關注教育的夥伴們清楚知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3575.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3597.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
對於捍衛教師的權益 我們在立法院一直都是持續在奮鬥中 而且陸續都有成果上週教育部張亮萬間次長就有表示 如果根據最新的統計在校事會議秉除匿名投訴之後 新制從今年上路以來立案的比率已經降為兩成 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3599.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3620.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那有階段性的成果是好事但是我們不會因此就停下這個進一步改革的腳步不久前我們有跟一群年輕的老師在聊這個議題喔那大家都認為在少子化的浪潮下其實我們要進一步來調整師生比 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3621.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3649.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
讓一個老師不要再負擔那麼多的學生這個方向我們會來努力我們要知道其實老師所面對跟管理的不只是一個班級他還是一個個的學生還要滿足家長的各類的要求所以單一的老師要面對那麼多的學生那麼多的家長很容易超出所謂的身心負荷除了師生比的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3650.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3665.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
為了要求教育部在教育精緻化的展現以外我們應該還要導入更多元的專業來協助第一線的教師讓更加豐富的性別 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3667.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3692.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
勞權資商特教等這些專業的資源可以進入校園讓老師在面對困境跟爭議的時候可以來共同面對學生跟家長的需求我們希望促成這種善的循環讓老師在校園裡頭有更好的這個勞動環境可是學生也因此可以獲得更高的教學品質那 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3693.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3715.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
謝謝大家今天一起來挺教育那今天所有的寶貴意見也是我們日後這個問政的重要參考讓我們攜手來努力來改革校事會議 以上好 謝謝委員 謝謝我們下一位李雅津我們台灣教育產業工會秘書長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3718.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3723.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
當學校老師不被信任摧毀的就是兒童的最佳利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3724.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3750.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我是台湾教育产业工会秘书长李雅津首先非常感谢的是罗廷文委员促成召开这一场公听会本会对于处理不适任教师的立场是坚定的在学校里没有人会忍受不适任老师但是绝对不能为了处理极少数的不适任教师使用了极其严厉不可错杀一人的机制 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3751.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3769.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
用显微镜我这里为什么要特别讲显微镜因为今天连细菌都要检验出来才行检视老师教学现场的所有言行我要请大家相信台湾的师资培育机制多数的台湾老师都是认真而且专业 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3770.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3789.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
所以我們在這裡欲請立委緊迫實質審查解聘辦法跟考核辦法在立法院職權行使辦法第62第一項提報院會決議通知教育部予以更正或廢止解聘辦法以及考核辦法那到底解聘辦法跟考核辦法出了什麼問題第一 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3791.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3808.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
就一步在解聘辦法中逾越授權讓檢舉案件需援引考核辦法第6-1條進行長達2-3個月直接派員調查製作調查報告而且要到主管機關被查但是我們現在所有 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3810.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3829.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
懲處也必須送主管機關備查這個代表什麼主管機關其實有兩道程序同時在走那剛剛教育部有提到說投訴案件降低了廢話因為全部跑到考核辦法區也就以前是大案小案大辦現在是案案都辦而且小案都大辦了 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3830.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3854.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
所以在這樣的機制之下 我認為這要徹底的檢討第二 解聘辦法刻意置入了關課措施侵犯了教師專業自主權我念一段 這是在課綱上的文字它寫的是 為了程序提升教學品質與學生學習成效 形塑同才共學的教學文化 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3855.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3880.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那老師跟校長都要進行公開授課但是當這個關課放進去解聘辦法會形成什麼變成茶水表示的進行關課他會讓原本公開授課的正向基地基目的蕩然無存第三受理機制疊藏家屋現在校長是被視為一個巨嬰供養 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3882.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3907.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
新這次的一個受理機制呢有教師有校長有專家學者然後還有家長唯獨一個人沒有叫做行政行政代表那也就是四個人先挑出來審查結果呢校事會議只差了一個行政代表再來校長居然沒有投票權所以呢是要整個這樣的一個審查機制幫校長背書嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3909.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3936.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那這個不僅讓我們所有的行政人員的負擔加劇它更讓校園治理的專業是非常大的侮辱第四點縣市政府的手深入的調查程序這件事你們知道嗎解聘辦法第16條第一項規定校訓會議在組成調查小組的時候主管機關應該從調查人才庫裡面領選三倍到五倍的學者專家供學校領選那這 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3938.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3958.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
在講哪一件事情人才庫的調查員誰會去擔任調查全部由主管機關掌控那以上諸多問題都讓校師會議長成了一隻大怪獸調查人員不必然了解教育的現場衝刺著拿法條來審 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3960.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3980.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
来审讨课堂的一个情境的怪象那完全无视于老师因材施教的专业自主权那我告诉你老师多容易被投诉功课太多你会被投诉对啦有种情形啦功课太少不会被投诉啦因为家长可能会私底下埋怨这个老师怎么这么懒 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3981.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3999 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
好 那學生遲到呢老師也會被投訴那造成越來越多老師採取防疫性教學其實是其來有至當老師只求著平安退休當學校跟老師不被信任的時候我相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3999.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4019.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
摧毀了一定所有兒童的最佳利益所以在這裡要再次欲請立委儘速實質審查解聘辦法跟考核辦法再依立法院職權行使法第62條第一項提報院會真的不要被查所謂的解聘辦法跟考核辦法以上 謝謝好 謝謝民主黨 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4028.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4046.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
也跟秘書長回應一下我們後面審查辦法我們會再要求委員會要把他先延期好讓他這個部分跟院會會報告好跟您報告謝謝下一個我們張永青我們全國教師公會總聯合會理事有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4055.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4065.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
主席 教育次長 彭署長還有在座的各位教訓各位教育先進 大家好那同樣的我要先感謝我們諾爾園幫我們召開這場公聽會可以讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4070.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4093.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
教育部的官員以及委員們聽聽現場老師們的聲音到底修正了這次教育部的修正之後到底現場還有什麼樣的狀況有沒有面臨性的問題那舊的問題到底有沒有解決根據教育部的資料看起來通知案件減少了看起來分流好像有效了很多小案分到 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4094.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4120.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
考核會去了但是因為增加了考核辦法裡面增加了這些本由來案件的詳細的調查程序老師需要面臨兩個月以上不高管教可能的疏失造成的親師衝突的誤解或是師生的衝突或老師跟學生的誤解需要被考核檢視的 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4123.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4149.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
要經過至少兩個月以上的調查這個壓力非常的大所以不要說因為看起來投訴案件減少就沾沾自喜老師們面臨的壓力並沒有因此而減少因為原本考核案件只是校內處理可能就可以了現在一個調查要兩個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4151.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4179.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
我看那個三天的那個身心調適下都不夠用針對這個修法提出幾點建議第一個我們法治的邏輯非常的矛盾教師法29條裡面規定規範的授權的來根據這個規範授權來制定的這個解聘辦法但是啊大學法跟專科學校法 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4181.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4190.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
卻規定了因為有價評會審議機制所以不用做另外的規範那中小學是二等公民嗎為什麼要另外再制定的專法來規範我們呢第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4196.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4221.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
青獅身上新增了溝通的預防機制在教育部認為是預防機制可是他把平常校園內會做的事情青獅溝通行政務談巡堂還有觀客放到解聘辦法裡面那所有的行政人員或者是調查員或者是主管可能就會用解聘辦法相關來嚴格的執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4223.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4244.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那會不會變成是監督老師教學那老師為了怕被列為未來可能要被調查的證據那是不是更加的防衛性的教學這對學生不是好事教學熱忱都不見了關克剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4246.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4273.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
雅金律師長已經講過了 非常的重要他原本的規範是教學相找可是你放在這邊很有可能變成學校財政的東西並不恰當再來考核辦法裡面規範的這些東西反而讓家長原本只想找學校溝通或找老師溝通的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4274.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4290.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
我就投訴就好了 簡單 學校就會去處理了所以反而變成了所有案件都變成了需要調查不會讓老師更輕鬆而且這些幾乎都是零成本的投訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4293.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4321.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
為了避免零成本的投訴照說應該是要有有很好的惡意的投訴的承擔責任要求家長要有這方面的責任機制我們光只有處理匿名還不夠我只要具名就可以檢舉了但是如果寫的都非事實呢有沒有法則沒有那這個部分我是建議其實可以參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4323.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4350.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
韓國或荷蘭要求這些濫訴或者重複投訴的家長要去上課讓他好好的了解到底法規是怎麼規定的哪些才是真正的違法那權外聘調查員看起來是好事老師不用去面對好像也可以避免私私相惡但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4352.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4380.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
全外病調查員可能面臨一個狀況主管機關推薦的人裡面沒有教育現場或該教育階段的老師只有律師專家學者校長不同教育階段老師進去調查那是不是能夠了解該階段或校內的狀況這是很有疑問的事情而且考到辦法裡面又增訂了德派校外人員調查那會變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4382.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4407.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我校長通通都外聘就好了反正我只要找個理由騙不到老師啊老師都怕被怕被那個同仁罵啊所以呢我只能騙外面的那變成全面的外聘那連考核辦法都外聘的時候那怎麼辦有可能就變律師來調查輔導管教案件那律師真的懂教學現場嗎這是非常不疑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4409.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4437.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我們這邊在強調我們全教總跟我們所有的教師團體並不反對處理不時任教師可是這個機制過度的對老師的不友善沒有對濫訴的家長究責或者賦予責任是非常不當的只會導致老師防禦性教學越來越嚴重喪失教學熱忱對學生是更加的不利謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4442.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4449.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
好謝謝你是下一位我們還王漢陽國教行動聯盟理事長有請喂 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4466.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4489.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
主席還有次長 署長 大家好謝謝陳儒 剛才其實大家都非常關心這個議題特別教師其實真的很辛苦了在這段過程當中進入了這些事情但是國教行動聯盟參考了英國 日本 韓國 澳洲還有新加坡等五國的一些研究資料還有一些專家的訪談 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4490.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4507.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
整理了我们今天的一个简报还有一个书面报告把各项的一个问题我们从制度面来去谈那到底有没有什么样的一个问题那先做一个结论消失会议不是废跟不废的问题是分不分流的问题第二件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4508.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4537.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
不废除要分流这是我们的主张最重要是要准确其实要让老师敢于合理的管教让孩子免于不当的对待申诉有可预期的程序还有重大案件不被轻放这四个原则都完成才是各位在看铁拳教育当中得到的一个精神否则其实我们在讨论一些事情的时候容易很多当中会有些比较偏向哪一方的一个问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4538.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4566.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
再来不是挺谁的问题而是准不准我们可以去思考一件事情挺老师挺学校挺家长挺学生到底有错吗哪有错挺谁都没有错但问题是制度到底准不准它是对象的是敌人是谁到底清不清楚如果我们不把这个真正该处理的案件去处理起来那敌人没有办法去消灭的时候那其实我们的问题只会越来越大 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4567.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4593.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
分流方向對了沒?對了其實82%到22%的過程當中可以清楚一件事情分流是對的如果分流是錯的當然沒辦法降低下來嘛但是這個過程需要去檢討說在調查當中的比例有沒有完成的統計調查在日本有這樣公開的平台把所有的體罰處分各方面的資料做完整的公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4594.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4617.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我們台灣目前現在還沒有做到我也不知道原因是什麼但是可以去進行這件事情到底的受理率如何分流率如何案件的類型跟處理的結果讓成效讓社會去檢驗嘛社會檢驗完了那數據公開了大家都知道所以我們再次強調我們之前一月份之前就強調一件事要有檢核表 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4618.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4632.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
既然校長不敢承擔既然很多人不敢承擔那你沒有檢核的機制跟樣態的分析那如何讓大家幸福呢那最後其實還是落在大家會覺得很多案件不公平的情形之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4633.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4660.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
用一些科学化的方式去处理那诚如刚才秘书长讲的考核的一个六之一确实在我们研究资料当中确实可以去检讨否则现在其实变成说如果我们今天施压给现在教育局处那可能也很难去解决说这个调查我们已经分流到考核办法当中了接下来别让学校当裁判这是各国当中得到的一个结论因为各国都没有让学校当裁判 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4661.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4683.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
他把現在台灣的制度讓學校當裁判校內在處理這些所有的事情的時候他是教學事務可是事實上已經有縣市政府在我們調查過程當中他不把他當教學事務他把他當行政事項去處理而這種行政事務的處理方式有效率而什麼不讓學校去介入當裁判 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4684.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4700.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
而這種結果在於現在各區域22縣市都有所謂的市島區其實可以聯合來去做這件事情那制度的本身其實不是在校長本身而學校也不是真正的雇主真正的雇主是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4701.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4717.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
大家都知道嘛就是交易局處啊那這個在各國我們講的這五個國家全部採用這個方式用各局處當中是做這樣的一個事情而我們做的事情比較不一樣一點那接下來我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4717.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4738.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
要提到的是什麼要交回真正的雇主這是我們一直以來的主張真正的雇主是誰既然是縣市教育局處就應該要交給教育局處這個縣市的雇主來去做這件事情而不是現在的學校所有的loading都在學校當中所以我們再次回到一個問題是行政 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4739.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4757.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
還是教學是行政的東西就應該回到什麼現在的主管機關的那個縣市交易局處然後承擔本來就該承擔的事情責任本來就該去負的事情這才是對的好再來分流不是放水小案大辦重案輕放這是最大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4758.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4782.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
監察院的人權委員的一個報告當中有指出很多的改善空間或許我們現在的風向在這裡在老師這邊那下一個階段在孩子這邊的時候制度到底能不能幫助他不要去放水任何東西你沒有辦法去做這件事情那韓國有一個2023年也要借鏡的他到現在對於前面的前端還有將近20幾%當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4784.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4808.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
調查的程序並沒有去什麼好好去處理所以我們在學習別人的過程也要非常的小心再來把合理管教寫進法律裡面那到底怎麼提升現在的管教權呢在注意事項現在是行政規則並位階非常的低啦說真的老師根本不敢管那你為什麼不把它升到什麼法律的位階 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4809.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4830.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
讓大家老師很確定的我是正當防衛的過程中我沒有事情他站得住腳他可以理直氣壯那這些東西的樣態情形那都應該要寫在什麼這些裡面而不是一個行政規則我相信老師不敢碰所以四項訴求很明確的四項訴求第一件事情就是明確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4832.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4861.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
分流明確化檢核表一定要有常態的統計一定要有再來參考韓國韓國做了一個200多頁的手冊給現在教學的現場我們沒有這個教學的手冊意思他把所有教師法還有包含所有校士會議的樣態情形有200多頁但我們有我們在我們的書面報告有但是我們是用AI的沒有辦法全部翻譯但是我覺得台灣要有可操作的手冊 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4861.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4876.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
第二件事情办法要修正让什么回到教育机关当中的县市教育局处学校保留通报的沟通第三个合理的管教要入法不要去不提升他的一个位阶第四个 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4877.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4896.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我們既然已經開始修教師法給老師的一些保障了包含說有一些分流的效率有些什麼樣不要再讓老師進入調查當中的分流要確實入法名譽恢復教師受暴幾次我也很支持說我們那個永青理事長在講到的一件事情就是目前現在人才庫也該檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4897.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4922.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
因為法律人員不見得了解專業教育的東西那這兩個法律是以構成要件來去思考並不是教育層面來去思考這件事情法律我們在人才庫有將近20幾%是律師這也是該檢討的好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝我們理事長下一位有請陳培育委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4927.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4955.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
好謝謝主席主席我們是7分鐘我想要先說一個事情其實關於校師會議我們在上個禮拜跟教育部的討論當中還有國教署其實我已經提出四個解方當然我都必須要說這解方只是可能的方向跟途徑但未來還有更多好的辦法可以去解決校師會議現在所面臨的爭議都還有待各位學者專家跟我們一起討論所以我想我今天就是先提出我們辦公室研究跟相關潛見那我要再一次強調剛剛我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4956.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4968.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
在之前我们今天民进党的所有教委委员会一起开了一个记者会在会议上吴立华委员就说了当时为了是在108年的时候我们为了处理非常多不适应教师 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4988.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5002.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
每當新聞事件出來的時候就如同剛剛王漢陽委員所說的我們大家就關注在不同的法規上但是整體來說學校它是一個有學生有家長有行政還有老師的一個共同的場域 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5002.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5028.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那因為有不同的角色不同的考慮所以我們在看到不同的事情就會有不同的切入面向可是我們終究都是希望學校是一個正常教學的場域讓學生可以好好學習的場域甚至在面對新時代典範的時候他自己要做出自己的教育轉型而這一切都需要教育主管機關的支持來自教育部來自地方教育局處所以我認為今天不是因為什麼新聞事件偏向哪一方我們就談哪一方所以我們辦公室的解方 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5029.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5044.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
也是希望照顾到所有在学校里面有相关利益位置的人的权益都可以被保障的情况下我们希望提出我们的看法那我要说现在的校式会议确实造成了很多现场的困境他当然也需要被改革需要被讨论但是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5045.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5073.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
討論要改革什麼事情之前我也想要跟教育部提出一些建議目前教育部雖然一直告訴我們數字降低數字降低但我要說現場每一個被不當申訴的老師的痛苦的苦難確實是存在的所以他們不會只看到數字降低當然我們知道初步的改革已經讓統計數據下降但現場老師所面臨的苦難我們到底如何解決這是第一個問題第二個現在其實有一個很大的漏洞還是可以讓家長 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5074.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5097.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
成为一个匿名检举者在校事会议中怎么做呢他不在学校里面检举他去打1999打完1999之后呢1999会先把刻意要匿名的人就先排除掉所以呢1999会打包一包已经有具体名字的申诉案件进入校园当中但是他送到各个学校去的时候那个学校他还是要匿名 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5097.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5127.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
也就是說還是有另外一種匿名機制沒有辦法防堵一些不當的爛訴而這個事情其實我們辦公室跟教育部國家署開過會其實國家署自己也承認這個bug是在的那如果是在的我要講光是這麼多細緻的問題都有帶第一線老師或者是學校校長甚至是家長甚至是學生讓我們知道我們才會知道我們現在可能還有這些問題需要解決我只是舉其中一個小小的例子跟大家分享校事會議需要改革這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5127.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5144.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
並不只是為了解決現在我們看到老師們的痛苦再來學校裡面的霸凌事件從來也不會只有學生對老師或者是老師對老師我們甚至看到一些案件是行政主管行政主管校長或是主任霸凌學校老師甚至過去有一些判決就已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5145.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5164.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
做出判决就是说那个霸凌案的调查是不公正霸凌案不应该对不起调查案的结果是不应该成立的所以我就不再举个别现实的例子我不想指名道姓但是对我们来说现场这些困境并不是只有生对师有很多是师跟师或者是主管对于老师 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5165.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5193.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
再来谈到校师会议的事情现在一些司法专业人员进入校园确实让老师观感不好所以我们等一下会提出另外一个解方但是如何让老师可以回到日常教学当中还有行政减量这些事情我认为可能也是未来我们要一并讨论的还有我最后要强调在提出解方之前我再强调一件事情过去我们在处理封中的案件的时候因为看到重大管教不当的事情所以发生的学生 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5194.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5209.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
自傷的悲劇而這個悲劇我們都不希望現場再發生可是我們當然也不希望發生老師自傷的悲劇而為了讓現場所有的悲劇都不要發生我要說所有的努力都必須要逐步開始進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5210.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5227.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
让未来有可能真的越来越好所以我想我还是直接提出四个可能的解方想要跟大家讨论第一个我要再次强调拜托落实家庭教育第二个是第三方专责机构第三个是教师职业安全指引第四个是教师李炫潜第一个 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5228.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5251.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
家庭教育我要再次拜託教育部再次拜託再次拜託講三遍我們從進到立法院的第一天我就說家庭教育的重要性跟範圍還有家庭教育的功能都一直被教育部給低估教育部應該要正視一件很重要的事情叫做政府有責任必須要編列預算以多元的方法協助家庭教養 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5252.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5275.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
這個困境不是只有立法委員在說很多民間團體很多家長甚至很多老師也在跟教育部求救當現場老師們要面對的是對自己的該教養的責任不清楚的家長而把所有的教育的想像都投射到學校老師身上的時候請問一個學校老師如何照顧30個小孩家庭的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5276.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5299.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
而如果沒有做家庭教育我們未來很難想像會再產生多少的恐龍家長變成老師的負擔所以第一件事情我要持續的再說在今年教育部的相關預算不斷的創新低尤其在家庭教育這個部分我當然知道跟才化法分走了很多錢到地方有關但是未來我們如何聚焦更多社會共識大家都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5300.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5316.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
意識到家庭教育這件事情真的拜託政府要陪著家長一起走不論是增列預算 擴編多元教材資源精準投放到有需求的家庭讓家長知道很多事情他自己要先做正確的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5316.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5343.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
那未来要不要苛责参考国外的法规我觉得都可以再讨论可是不可以不交而战不可以谈只要对家长开罚之前我们不去做家庭教育所以我要花这么多时间一再一再的拜托教育部终身教育师不要再把家庭教育的责任推给现场教师这件事情也非常重要我们甚至听到教育部说好的好的我们会叫学校老师对家长做家庭教育不要再说什么荒谬的话了 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5344.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5368.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
老師不應該對家長做家庭教育老師教育的服務的對象是孩子所以家庭教育忠誠教育司該編多少錢該做多少事情該如何跟地方政府討論請務必趕快開始不要再等待了到目前為止我聽到所有教育部不論是在公開質詢甚至記者會的現場回應媒體的現場都不願意面對家庭教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5368.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5385.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
所以我要花這麼多時間雖然已經超時了主席拜託我底下很快再來第三方專責機構這件事情我知道教育部現在在開啟討論了也知道老師們有不同的看法但我要說每一次會議的現場沒有共識不代表我們不應該繼續往下討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5387.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5412.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
再說一次沒有共識的現場不代表我們不應該繼續往下討論如果沒有第三方專責機構我們還是要把很多的事情丟在學校裡頭我想沒有任何一個校園裡面的行政或是校園裡面的老師可以接受但是第三方專責機構如何讓學校老師是信任的我覺得這個也很重要所以不論是政府資源的投入程序公開公正實名過山的機制專業人員主導還有如何把學校老師聲音放進來我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5414.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5428.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
持續討論很重要請不要再告訴我們因為沒有共識當然不會有共識因為校事會議現在很多狀況沒有辦法處理當然不會有共識再來教師職業安全指引這件事情目前可以協助老師的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5429.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5456.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
在现行劳动部的法规里面只有一两条是透过劳动部的职业安全卫生法里面对老师是有适用的可是这个范围相当有限可以保护老师的范围也有限目前老师在进行教学的过程当中很可能受到学生的伤害行为也可能面临老师跟老师之间的职场霸凌甚至有可能来自校方的职场霸凌本来就要应该挨个安全的制度我听说教育部也已经在讨论了我希望可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5456.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5477.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
真的趕快協助老師建立一個教師職業安全指引甚至要不要到法律層級我覺得還是可以再討論最後一個教師離線權我們前兩天講的這個事情呢我先說我們的看法是老師也是人老師也有休息時間不應該被打擾主管機關要當後盾但是有老師來告訴我們說會不會他的離線權反而變成他被投訴的對象之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5478.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5494.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我要說這個法制也必須要保護老師當他合法合理的享受使用他的離線權的時候他不應該被投訴目前只有行政指導沒有納入法我們也希望教育部後續要持續努力我要說很多事情需要大家一起討論一起解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5494.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5516.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
大破大立做好制度改革保障師生權益重視每一個孩子跟協助每一個家長跟讓每一個老師在學校安心任教是我們今天公聽會最重要的目的未來還有很多事情需要跟大家一起討論謝謝好謝謝委員下一位吳宗勳 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5524.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5543.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
副執行長主席 各位長官 各位專家學者 大家早 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5544.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5566.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
我是屏東縣教育產業公會法務中心副執行長吳宗勳我今天站在這裡是代表第一線老師帶來第一線的教學現場的現況我鄭重呼籲超市會議制度必須立即進行結構性的改革否則不敢管、不想管、不能管的法律性教學將成為教學現場的現況 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5570.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5593.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我曾經擔任過專審會跟校士會的調查員也擔任過教學不義的教師的輔導員我曾經是校士會的外聘委員也擔任過陪同老師被調查的輔助人所以我擔任過不同的角色所以我在這不同角色當中看到整個校士會帶來的亂象 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5595.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5610.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那個次長剛才說我們的案件有變減少了但是爛輸的現象還是確實發生而且日益嚴重只是可能從校事會跑到那個考核會的調查這樣而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5611.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5631.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
因為我曾經調查過很荒謬的案件一個國家老師我們如果擔任過國家老師我們曾經也擔任過國家學生老師常考聽寫一位國家老師考了聽寫他請學生說你把錯字訂正過來再多練習兩次這樣他就被投訴了 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5632.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5660.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
另外一個案例是我們現在教室裡面班班都有冷氣那下課時候學生出入教室如果沒有把門窗關鎖好那就是浪費很多電所以老師為了培養學生良好的習慣只要讓老師發現三次以上如果沒有隨手關門窗那老師就當天停不讓學生吹冷氣這樣老師也被檢舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5663.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5691.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
其實這些親文的事件透過親私溝通或者學校校內其實都可以處理並不一定要到校師會來但是我們學校裡面常常把陳情案變成檢舉案如果所有的陳情案變成檢舉案那就是非常多的災難不僅影響不僅浪費行政資源也去影響老師的教學跟管教的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5695.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5718.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
但是我們的主管機關很奇怪即使學校親自溝通都處理完了那按照解聘辦法第九條第一項第五款家長如果撤回檢舉本來不應該受理但是當學校呈報到主管機關的時候主管機關卻常常發回給學校說請學校本於職權進行調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5720.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5744.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那原本是陳情案現在發為調查又要變成檢舉要進行很多的繁瑣調查程序所以製造了教學及學習氣氛的緊繃也嚴重干擾了那個學校自治的空間在我們教師考核辦法第六條第二項第六款第八目明確規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5747.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5771.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
體罰霸凌不當管教或其他違法處罰學生情節輕微經令其改善人為改善者才即申戒也就是說情節輕微的時候學校應先要求教師改善如果老師未改善而且在犯的情況之下才給予申戒但實務上如果學校僅僅通知老師要改善他的管教行為教育局常常 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5772.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5795.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
將考而退回,兼此最輕微的懲處就是審檢不容許僅以通知改善來處理所以給老師容錯的空間很少因為我們現在教師在教學現場面臨學生管教的問題非常的多老師很難達到100% |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5798.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5821.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
但是我常跟老師講說老師你可能是99分優秀老師但是你扣掉這一分你可能就被寄生簽其實老師願意調整改善自己的教學與管教方式但是若情節輕微過錯都沒有容錯空間老師只好選擇防禦性教學來自保那我擔任 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5823.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5837.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
不適任教師的輔導小組委員的時候有很多案件其實並不需要被輔導的例如我有輔導一個案件是有一個老師他班上疑似發生學生對學生的霸凌事件未通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5840.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5861.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那最後呢這個生對生的霸凌事件調查還不成立霸凌但是呢他就進入到輔導期我就覺得很誇張我進到學校之後跟校長去抱怨說請問一下我們輔導期最少要兩個月我們是要花兩個月的時間教會老師寫通報告子彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5862.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5889.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
學校跟我們說程序已經走下去了我們真的花了兩個月教老師學會寫通報告示欄所以輔導的過程冤案非常多但是依照結併辦法第47條必須等到輔導結束做成中期實體處理之後老師才能提出申訴所以老師不能因為調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5892.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5904.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
有疑問而提出申訴所以在這個調查過程當中剝奪了老師及時救濟的權利他必須要等到輔導結束之後才可以進行申訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5908.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5925.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
那我曾經擔任副輔佐人有一個老師他是米蘭雅老師他希望他的教室環境能夠在下一個班級能夠很整潔於是他下課的時候留五位學生下來打掃教室結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5926.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5952.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
被認定不當管教我曾經在現場就跟律師做辯論說我們要認定老師不當管教老師先要有一個管教行為但是留職生不是一個管教行為怎麼會認定是不當管教所以明顯混淆了班級經營跟管教行為的界線所以調查小組的組成其實現在都有一位律師但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5953.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5967.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
因為他學校都認為他很專業所以當律師說什麼時候學校通常不會對律師體負存疑所以這樣的錯誤的認定可能層出不窮好那各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5968.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5984.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
教師會跟考核辦法跟電腦制度如果不進行結構性的調整容錯的環境將迫使老師轉校防疫教學最終受損的不只是教師的尊嚴更是我們影響我們下一代的學生好 以上謝謝謝謝副執行長 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5997.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6022.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
下一位馮喬蘭執行長 謝謝大家好 我是人本教育經驗會執行長喬蘭很感謝今天有這個公聽會的機會可以把我們這兩年在思考的教育制度跟教育環境的問題做一個簡單的說明那我當然知道說在當中所提出來的項目有很多還需要細細討論的就如同剛剛裴育文所提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6023.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6039.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
還需要在繼續的共同的討論跟協商尤其在有不同的立場跟意見的狀況之下但是因為都值得就是因為今天現場每一個人都在談的事情是說我們需要的是真正的保障每一個人的權益包含現場的教育的整體狀況的保障跟提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6039.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6057.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
所以呢我們今天所提出來的幾個項目可能不只是針對校士會議辦法或是解聘辦法而是這兩年這一兩年下來我們在思考說就我們整體的環境有哪些事情是我們要去思考的有哪些是我們的挑戰有哪些是我們必須從現在開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6059.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6080.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
既然我們要開始轉型既然開始調整我們都必須要思考的題目所以我們列比較多個項目第一個項目是關於不適合教師跳開校層級處理的事情這剛有幾位朋友都有提到包括漢陽理事長等等都有提到說我們是否要拉開這個不適合教師的處理的層級不要只留在學校裡面做 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6080.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6109.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
因為現在的狀況是各校做起來常常說我在學校裡頭我光教學都做不完了我還要處理這麼多的事情然後每一個要成辦的人還要重新思考說我要如何處理校事會議怎麼找調查委員怎麼處理相關的狀況所以把它拉開層級的處理會是一個蠻重要的思考這也是我們今天會談的大部分的內容也是書面報道的大部分內容第二個部分是在這個狀況之下分級是一個部分那還有一些屬於就是說事實上這個家長的申訴他已經是不合理或者是不合法的濫訴了 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6111.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6128.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那谁来扛这件事不应该由第一线教师扛啊像有些老师要面临家长要求他改成绩改成绩怎么会要一个第一线家长自己承担呢要求老师改成绩是错的啊是不行的啊那应该学校行政就该处理啊但是我们学校行政有没有这样的专业跟能力跟思考可以处理 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6130.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6144.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我們的行政制度能不能support我們的教師當我們說行政要支援教學的時候他要協助強勢家長的處理協助青獅溝通的協調協助擋掉那些爛鼠的時候我們的學校行政有沒有這個能力跟專業跟這樣的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6146.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6170.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
接著還有一個教學福利的判斷跟輔導機制事實上有些老師確實需要一些專業的提升跟協助這個機制要放在哪裡怎麼做怎麼樣標準下要做這樣的事情那這個是要有一個相關的標準的判斷的還有一個是我們要在這邊提出校園支援系統的思考這個是前一陣子我們有跟幾個團體也在討論這個事情一個學校的運作其實需要很多相關的資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6171.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6186.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
包括大家遇到霸凌的世界有一些部分是班級經營可以處理有些部分需要處理到家長處理到社區的整體的狀況的時候那這樣的霸凌的協助機制在哪裡輔導之上的問題的協助機在哪裡老師有時候班級經營需要幫忙比如說像台中黃金隔岸 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6187.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6205.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
他就很清楚老師在碰到困難的時候他沒有任何的資源系統那他班級進行出問題了霸凌再發生了那怎麼辦還有老師需要心理支持這個資源的整體系統要放在哪裡那剛剛也有提到親子教育的問題譬如說有些老師認為說一孩子需要被送回家管教 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6206.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6232.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
帶回家管教現在有帶回家管教的填課的措施可是相關的輕職提升誰來負責任誰來負責這件事還有學校是否要考慮有學校社工的角色的思考才能夠結合各項資源這個部分我們前次也在跟國教協同聯盟的理事長討論這個事情這樣學校社工的角色可以協助的事情是做個串結而不要把所有責任放在教師或者行政身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6232.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6260.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那這還包括說我們整個四肢培育系統如何調整跟改變來協助因應現實狀況小孩就是會有社群問題有網路問題我們不能假裝沒有那麼新時代的教師為你新時代的挑戰四肢培育系統如何協助如何支援另外當然有法律跟制度改革的問題包含剛剛所提到的教師職業安全指引啊等等的這些相關的法律跟制度都需要重新的思考跟盤整所以這是一個很大的工程 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6261.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6277.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
那這個挑戰很多包含剛剛所提到的標準劃分問題怎麼樣都叫做分流分得準分流的標準在哪邊相關的檢核手冊怎麼出來相關的檢核手冊跟標準如何達到搭彼此的共識不要講別的光是講人權會他們去年所提供的那個釋對生暴力的相關的研究報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6280.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6298.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
從106學年度到11學年度有58個案件在校事會議的調查報告調查報告說他是違反了第14條教師法而且是屬於終身解聘的因為他對學生造成重大身心侵害可是在這個58個案件當中真正被解聘的是5個 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6299.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6314.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
是五個 八個 八個被解聘然後五個是記過 七個是小過二十三個是身戒 三個是口頭身戒有五個是沒有做任何處理OK 那這個標準是什麼內容是什麼 這需要檢視耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6315.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6337.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那我們能不能檢視相關已經發生過的調查報告做一個比較清楚的檢視而定定搭彼此的所謂的標準那另外就是我們相關的機制必須要兼顧學生教室各項權益這都必須思考但教育必須先行而不只有司法的態度同時要如何重建信任這是我們現在很大的挑戰以及在這個重建信任的過程當中能夠重新的建立我們的專業尊嚴因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6339.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6368.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
這個信任是包含各方的對行政的不信任對老師的不信任對家人不信任對學生的不信任我們都需要去處理所以我們先從第三方機制來討論起因為現在兒少全法正要進行修法在兒少全法當中我提到說教師職務中違反兒少全法的由教育主管機關綜合整理因為他不要跌床架屋在這個狀況下我們是可以重新來思考說我們兒少全法這邊也既然要做個調查了那我們教育體這邊有個相關調查如何來做整合而不要跌床架屋 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6369.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6396.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
因為他要從俄少權的侵害來出發來思考所謂的這個不適任同時我們想提出來一個比較大的變革也需要後續的討論就是說我們覺得這樣的機制之前也在討論說到底放在教育局呢還是要怎麼做呢還是放在中央呢無論是怎麼樣放也許我們要重新思考說是否我們要用行政法人的架構來思考這件事而不是用現有機制一旦他是行政法人他就重新思考這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6397.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6415.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
同時他就是所謂的第三方機制同時他的相關人員的認證要從中央來做那我們也希望能夠對校園行政減量也減少基層工人的工作而且來聘專任的人專職的人來處理相關的兒少權侵犯的工作那麼標準的建立也比較容易一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6416.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6444.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那這件事情就關係到行政效能的提升那也還有程序公正跟獨立性的問題以及我們專業倫理跟社會信任整體提升我們為什麼會這個時候提出來因為這幾年下來我們也發現這件事情在這個現在是非常重要的才能夠重建我們整體的信任跟專業的尊嚴好 謝謝大家抱歉 我補一下後面的那個那個各國的部分我就不再另外論述了就是書面資料會給大家 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6446.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6462.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
好 謝謝補充介紹到場的學子專家全國家長教育志工聯盟徐巨龍理事長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6471.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6481.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
下一位諮詢的委員郭育晴委員我也順便宣告郭育晴委員諮詢完畢以後我們休息五分鐘讓大家上個廁所 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6490.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6506.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
謝謝主席所有在場與會的教育界夥伴先進大家早安大家好我想今天這個公聽會的提高也特別提到了最近大家都在看的這部劇鐵拳教育那當然我十集也看完了 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6506.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6529.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那必須說這個戲劇雖然它有誇張比較誇大的一些成分但是在第一線的老師他們所在承受的一些痛苦跟戲劇上所呈現出來輕師生三方的拉扯那麼現在的校園其實每天都在上演那我想這樣子的一個困境大家其實都看到也感受得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6529.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6558.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那去年也就是2025年的5月28號我是第一個針對校事會議在委員會質詢的委員那麼之後呢其實我也陸陸續續接過了大概上百個由教師在現場他們發出來的求救的訊號跟陳情那從5月28號一直到現在為止其實我大概也在委員會當中質詢了大概至少7次以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6558.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6585.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
那中間當然也開過記者會喔那我想呢其實我們之所以面臨到有教學熱忱的老師他們所面臨到現在在教學現場的一些困境我想這個部分呢我們除了要持續的追蹤那麼當然其實教育部也確實也聽到了大家的一個聲音喔那雖然本來是說在去年的12月底要公佈就是刪除匿名就是檢舉這樣子的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6587.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6615.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
制度的改革我們後來是到1月12號公佈那麼我想這個部分當然也落實了許多的當初我在建議交易部就是在案件的一個分流那當然這個朱軍昌司長在上週其實也在委員會當中也公開的告訴大家就是原本這個成案率是從82%那目前也因為這樣子的一個制度的改革也降到了22% |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6616.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6632.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
但是我要提的是數字是降下來了但是老師們的恐懼真的都消失了嗎我想這個還沒有那這次的提高我們特別有提到這個為什麼老師不敢管那我幫大家歸類到三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6633.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6649.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
這個我們可以來檢討的這樣子的一個結構性上的一個問題那麼是不是因為我們的教師支持的系統做的其實還不夠那麼沒有辦法讓現場的老師還是有感的第一個就是在缺乏這個法律的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6649.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6666.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
那我想呢老師在面對所謂的這個調查的過程通常都是孤軍奮戰那麼也就是說我們沒有對等的法律的資源提供給現場正在接受調查的這些老師們那第二個就是我們的這個教學的資源到底有沒有給 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6667.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6688.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
也就是說在面對調查的這個期間他除了要面對調查的過程身心上的煎熬跟壓力以外他可能同時間他還要備課那也有一些老師他可能還要處理所謂的行政的狀況那麼在這個部分到底客戶是誰來幫他有沒有這樣子的一個資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6689.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6717.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
那另外就是待課的費用誰要來出那另外就是在這樣子的一個狀況之下會不會影響到第一線在校園學生的受教權這是我們必須要去考量到的這個資源有沒有給夠那第三個就是缺乏心理上的支持我想這個制度性的一個高壓讓老師身心俱疲那麼現有的一個輔導機制是真的有落實到真的需要幫助的這些老師們嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6719.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6737.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
我想我們不能只看數字只改條文但是我們卻沒有聽到這個第一線老師他們現在還是處於所謂的孤立無援的一個心聲那我想提一個小小的建議就是我們怎麼樣來夠建立所謂的這個判決書式的一個知情的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6738.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6761.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那麼許多的老師其實也跟我們反映通常他們在這個調查的報告當中其實這個過程他們只能看一個小時那麼也不能帶走這個真的符合所謂的程序正義嗎那當然我們在保護兒少隱私的一個前提之下是不是可以來建立所謂的分層切入這樣子的一個制度讓老師能夠擁有完整的知情權 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6761.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6781.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
那麼拿到一份有事實有理由有證據摘要的一個書面報告其實就像法院的判決書一樣就是清清楚楚的讓老師心服口服接受這樣子的一個所謂的這個判決書的內容那麼當然如果說他是冤案有沒有辦法可以退回從審 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6782.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6797.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那當然這個也是我提出來的一些方向那麼針對像今天的這個討論我相信應該大家不只是希望能夠讓教育部知道那麼當然也要有一個實施的進度那希望未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6797.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6817.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
不要再聽到就是所謂的再研議再研議這三個字那麼我想7月我們就會見真章那7月也會公佈就是我們在教師會議的這個改革之後的第一份的報告那麼我想身為執政黨的委員我們比誰都希望教育體制的健全 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6818.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6835.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那如果教育部沒有落實所謂的法律心理或者是客戶上的一個支援那麼其實這個部分才是真正在教育現場最需要被改革的地方那我想呢契約數據出來之後那麼我們同步呢也希望這個教育部來提供就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6836.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6857.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
取消了這個所謂的匿名檢舉這樣子的一個影響跟評估那麼再來就是我所提出的知情權制度化跟支援的一個系統能不能夠有一個比較明確的改革的進程我相信也希望這個教育部能夠聽到喔那我想大家都會持續的監督那麼絕對不希望就是教育的現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6858.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6883.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
持續的拉扯打擊到真正有熱忱想要教學的專業的老師當然我們也不希望有任何的一個親師生上的一個關係去犧牲掉在校園當中真正願意學習成長的學生跟孩子們好 以上好 謝謝委員的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6887.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6910.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
補充介紹專家學者我們現場有中華公民人權協會蔡佩華理事長那我們現在先休息五分鐘那也跟我們學者特別報告我們這裡後面有有廁所那大家可以先休息一下謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6913.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6914.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
中文字幕提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6931.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6949.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
鞠躬鞠躬 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6950.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6951.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
這裏有個大廈,這裏有個大廈,這裏有個大廈 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6969.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6971.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6989.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6990.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
這個字好有名字 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7006.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7008.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
現在要做什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7034.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7035.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
看誰夾的,誰夾的,誰夾的,誰夾的 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7051.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7060.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
用一個暗中主義的實驗室這次的問題是在哪裏?這次的問題是在哪裏?這次的問題是在哪裏?這次的問題是在哪裏?這次的問題是在哪裏?這次的問題是在哪裏? |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7077.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7078.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
就等於說它是雕塑 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7102.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7106.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
他的理由就是看到政策戰略 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7117.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7121.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
他不是教師他不是教師他不是教師他不是教師他不是教師他不是教師他不是教師 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7143.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7144.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
總是要去進去找我媽媽 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7163.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7163.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
這個設計兩個是教室 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7193.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7195.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
所以你第一次免费过3月的话是40块钱对不对?40块钱 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7217.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7220.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
这个来吃 这个吃 这个吃这个吃 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7239.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7240.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那是以前的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7262.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7270.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
因為如果花錢,像韓國的花錢,搞不定外國人賺不上更多錢我們先瞭解一下,情人不能只給我們數字的資金,對他們的資金也只給我們資金 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7284.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7285.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
下一位我們有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7314.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7339.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
任懷民我們政策中心主任有請發言主席各位來賓大家好上個月高雄市有一名優秀的國小老師他是本會的會員在上學日的校園內跳樓輕生 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7343.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7369.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
所以今天我的報告是為這位嚴老師請命的希望我們的立法者能盡快補上管教的法制漏洞有人會問教育部目前不是已經有一個定定管教辦法注意事項了嗎但是這不是法律這是行政規則 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7373.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7396.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
行政規則沒有辦法限制人民的基本權利所以許多管教措施在學校根本不可行譬如說教育部的管教辦法裡面有提到所謂的家長領回但是這侵犯了家長送小孩子上學的受教權 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7398.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7424.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
事實上在現場執行上的確也遇到這樣的問題許多學校覺得這些特殊個案真的沒有辦法管教了要家長配合帶回但是家長不配合學校一點辦法都沒有為了怕待會時間不夠我直接先講結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7429.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7456.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
目前我們國家的確沒有一套法律未接這個層級的管教法令目前有的目前有的就只有剛剛提到教育部的那個注意事項那個注意事項只是行政規則雖然在教師法有所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7459.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7488.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
各校可以自己定定 透過校會自己定定管教辦法但是那個管教辦法也只屬於學校章責根本連法規命令的層級都不到更不要提法律層級所以它事實上也沒有辦法進行對學生受教學限制的這樣子的管教措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7489.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7515.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
沒有辦法所以呢那麼根據我今天報告所引用的學者的研究他們參考英國的案例我是建議我們直接在國教法以及高級中等教育法裡面增訂一張管教的專章接著接在第七章的 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7516.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7533.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
課程與教學後面增訂一張管教專章管教專章裡面有幾個要項需要訂定的第一個是學校各類人員包括教師、學務處教務處校長的管教權責 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7537.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7564.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
要区分开来不要把所有责任通丢给老师那第二个要项也非常重要就是家长应该配合的配合学校管教的事项如果没有做到的话有什么罚则这个要明定在法律里面才有强制效力第三项针对政府的相关单位包括教育 社政 警政他们的职权在管教上面应该配合的 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7566.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7580.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
職權有哪些也應該明定於法律當中那另外幾個重要的管教措施包括校內停學校外停學的那個實施的細節以及他的配套措施也應該明定第五項 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7582.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7608.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
目前教育部管教办法里面提到的所谓的高关怀课程那事实上就是在校内的校内的那个停学措施的一个配套措施那这个利益虽然良好但是他的师资和相关的资源如果没有在法律明定他也很难落实那最后一个是一个更重要的就是如果我们定定停学的话 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7610.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7637.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
小朋友的受教育被停學的學生的受教權要怎麼樣來彌補呢那根據國外的案例是的確應該要訂定一個替代教育的制度來彌補這樣子的受教權的缺失那這是今天的結論那回過頭來我就想引用我今天參考的兩份研究報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7645.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7673.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
那麼兩份報告都是由台南大學的林斌教授那另外一份是他和他的學生所做研究報告那麼他們對比的那個案例就是英國他們的管教措施那我從其中一篇摘了一段文字是林斌教授的文章裡面提到文字我覺得很值得所有的立法者以及政策制定者參考的我在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7675.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7687.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
讀給大家聽中小學義務教育的經費是由各級政府負擔也就是由全體納稅人付費那麼它是攸關國家競爭力的重要公共服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7689.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7711.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
所以維持學校教育活動的正常合理運作是學校教育的重要考量必須與大多數學生的合理權益作為管教措施的基礎因此英國多年以來已建立針對特定學生違規行為予以嚴懲的聯盟政策舉凡校園暴力、毒品 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7712.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7739.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
槍械濫用藥物以及嚴重干擾教學秩序等行為均有採取停學強制轉學以及或者退學的處分規定即使是應教育階段的學生只要違反法令規章一樣可以遭到永久退學的懲戒處分絕不寬戴此一政策傾向反映出先進國家教育發展重視公共利益以及教育品質的趨勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7743.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7764.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
我想這段話是值得我們所有人思考的那有關英國他們所實施的這些管教措施呢我就用書面文件再來補充給大家以上報告謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7774.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7798.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
不好意思主任我想也跟專家學者特別說明一下雖然我們計時是七分鐘但是如果大家希望能夠多發言我們都一定陪伴大家當然啦當然啦那就容許我好因為機會難得那 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7802.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7831.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
确实我今天是抱着很沉重的心情来的那因为我们痛失了一位优秀的老师那其实呢管教的困境学校里面管教的困境存在很久了严老师的案例严老师的悲剧不是第一次发生最近这几年发生非常多次了我相信主管机关以及各位在座关心教育的朋友其实都已经很熟悉其实我们整个社会 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7832.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7853.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
其實已經耳熟能詳對於現在學校中的管教困境那如果是這種情況下我們的立法者還沒有想到要認真的去補這個管教的法制漏洞我覺得是立法者的失職那我們看一下英國他們怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7856.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7885.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那同樣林明教授這個案例裡面舉了20年前英國的案例來說明你看這張表這張表是英國他們的這個招售永久停學的學生人數每一年都將近1萬人1萬人的比例是多少呢?千分之一永久停學意思就是退學的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7888.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7892.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那當然英國的那個管教的法制 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7893.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7914.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
也不是老早就有的也是晚近這幾十年之前但是當然比許多國家都要早因為這個老牌民主國家也發現管教是學校教育的重要一環所以最早將管教法治化是在1986年就法治化2011年又再補充了 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7921.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7947.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
新的管教的制度包括對學生的搜索權我們要記得英國是一個相當重視人權法治的國家他們為什麼會把這樣子的權限賦予學校 賦予教師就是有我剛才念的那一段他們有看到公共教育對於國家發展很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7950.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7975.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
第二呢 教師施予學生課後留校的懲戒的時候不必於二十四小時之前通知家長因為這樣子的管教權他們覺得是必須立即實施才能發揮效果的 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7977.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8005.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
此外呢 針對校長的停學權他們也給予增強維護那就是限縮申訴小組的那個權限那由此可見就是他們在針對學校的管教權有一波新的增進跟維護的設計那這個都是定在他們的教育法裡面的這也就是給我一個啟示就是說不能夠只單純在定在什麼教師法或者其他 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8007.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8022.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
就是附屬的法條裡面要定在教育法這個層級裡面因為它管教本身是屬於教育的一個重要內涵我就點過幾個英國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8027.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8054.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
英國的重大管教措施那個細節我就不講了當然他們都有配號措施但是這幾個重大管教措施才是真的能夠發揮對於重大行為問題能夠產生管教效果的措施包括什麼呢包括課後留校那這個課後留校 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8055.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8074.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
雖然說可以在事前真的要這樣同意但是這並不是必要條件第二項重大管教措施是停學他們有三種有校內停學 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8076.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8101.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
有定期停學還有永久停學永久停學當然就是退學的意思那這個也都有配套措施比如說剛剛講的替代教育它就是一個配套措施我們不能夠犧牲小朋友的受教權但是也不能因為缺乏管教就影響到其他學生大部分學生的受教權 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8106.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8135.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
英國還有一個重大的管教措施就是搜索權這個我就不細講了最後有一個很重要的管教措施我這要提出來的是教養令這個教養令是由法院發出的它的條件是這樣就是說如果學生被永久停學或是一年內被定期停學兩次以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8137.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8154.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
那他們的地方教育局 地方教育主管機關不需要再提任何其他的證據就可以向法院申請對家長發出教養令那個教養令裡面內容通常可以分為兩部分第一部分是要求家長要出席諮商和輔導課程當然他有時間上限 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8157.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8184.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那第二個部分呢 會是要求家長配合學校的特定要求那它當然有時間的上限總之就是 這個是法院可以對家長的要求如果你家長不配合呢 沒有落實呢沒有按法院的這個教養令去執行呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8186.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8198.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
法院可以處以罰金最高可以達到一萬一千英鎊那由此就可見就是說英國就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8200.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8226.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
各個國家機構上至法院下到地方主管機關對於管教有重大的措施也對這個管教的重要性有深刻的提認好 那我就先補充報告這裡 謝謝好 謝謝主任非常感謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8228.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8256.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那有鑒於剛剛主任也有提到其實大家都非常非常希望能夠有機會再發言所以專家學者如果有需要的話第一輪發言完畢本席會開放第二輪登記再次發言屆時有需要的學者專家可以來主席台登記讓大家暢所欲言那 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8259.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8285.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
我可能就在第一輪的發言維持在七分鐘讓或許我們要發言的每一位不會影響到你們既有的行程如果有要先離開的我們都尊重但如果想要採第二輪發言的待會可以在開放登記以上補充宣告下一位有請黃香仙理事長謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8286.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8306.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
張亮萬堅次長跟彭富永署長大家好還有各位先進教育界的前輩我們是全國代理及代課教師產業工會那我今天在這裡想要跟大家做的問題是在教師輕生上上週研老師的案件已經不是台灣的第一個案件究竟發生多少我們可以持續來關注 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8307.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8329.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
這個是我持續在從2021年我們創會之後一直在追蹤的教外青森跟校內青森大家可以看到在校內青森從去年2024年11月開始連續半年就有一個老師在校內青森我覺得這個是一個非常大的警訊那大家也可以看到在登載在媒體上的青森的老師裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8330.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8351.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
很高比例都是代理教師這連記者都有問我說為什麼這麼多其實在教師的困境當中代理教師他的困境會是一個加倍跟加劇的那我們也可以看到103年到112年台師大的一個教授他去調查在國小階段的教師跟智商的行為其實是有明顯顯著的提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8354.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8383.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
不好意思那我在這邊也要談就是我有去追蹤的幾個案件來說可以看到在校內自殺的在新北市是一個生教組長在台北市是一個代理教師那南投也有個代理教師他是北南蘇之後進行下市會議那去年新竹縣有一個老師他提退休在職場他也有提職場霸凌前的調查那一年內都發生了四個校內的輕生其實這個我覺得校內輕生教師在校內輕生其實是一個很加劇的 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8384.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8403.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
當過老師的人都知道怎麼樣我們的第一個職責是不要傷害學生可是他為什麼會在無助到選擇在他的職場環境做這件事情我覺得是我們在現場的大家可以都一起去思考他的意義跟他的背後的困境跟無助到底到什麼程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8403.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8428.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
那我想要講的是教權就是鐵拳教育的背後的歷史背景其實是韓國在2018年到2023年有一百多位教師自殺那去年在2024年的韓校的通報裡面當中自殺自傷的教師有比一百二十四名那在2023年我們國會已經快速的修正了四個法案那在下面那其實就是希望老師們可以就是受到保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8429.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8451.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那我們台灣現在已經2026年有沒有機會可以趕快加速跟上那在教權是教師地位提升與教育活動的保護特別法這邊有一個第四個重點他說教師的家長他必須自討養胞負擔就是如果他有明顯親安教育權的活動跟學生的家長他必須要負擔這相關的費用這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8453.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8479.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
目前台灣很多老師在集成來一直提到的是他們也不會覺得這個制度不好而是說這個制度在面對爛數的家長的時候他沒有零成沒有成本好再來是提一下韓國的首爾教育廳他砸了66億韓元大概台幣1.5億元他做了很多的硬體上的提升因為我們今天大部分談的是法制的部分但是我在想法制的後面的硬體的設計跟規範其實也是有那在電話跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8480.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8509.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
电话的录音然后第二个是教师在家长里面要去找老师他是必须事先预约的因为我在现场蛮常看到一些制度就是问题是家长今天非常的不高兴他就随时的去学校找老师可是老师在原本的课定的继承当中是有自己的行程但他就没办法好好做下来他在面对他的客户等等的压力的状况下那在学校有每一个一校一律师的一个资源 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8509.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8531.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
好這是韓國跟台灣不好意思我真的是要用這樣子的比對因為在現場基層的教師會看到韓國拿1.5億台幣去用AI導入保護老師可是台灣現在是用118億AI的人才方舟計畫就是對比下來其實台灣的教師會有非常強大的剝奪感那這是我也剛剛講的那台灣的老師現在也說我們真的很想要贏韓國好 再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8535.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8558.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
一直在 之前我也在有協工廳會長道就是我們的行政減量但是我覺得目前壓垮現在現場的行政老師們最大的壓力其實是來自校事會議的這個制度跟執行那它其實我很想問的是在這個制度的上路之前為什麼沒有行政配套的措施跟能力它是無條件的轉報給學校的行政老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8558.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8585.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那他們行政老師本來要做的行政壓力行政的專注力就必須挪向來移動這個算是高張力的制度另外一個層次是我覺得這個制度也在現場正在撕裂校園們同學們之間的文化就是我們一直在說在教育執行的時候是需要大家合作但是這個文化制度是很多老師就算調查結束之後他跟老師跟老師之間或是老師跟主管之間其實是會有一個很深的芥蒂 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8586.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8606.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
好那這邊我要反彈講一個消失會議是此事的全部之惡嗎並沒有我覺得在這五年我看到的作為一個年輕老師這兩個案件就是很明顯的我們透過消失會議抓出了狼屍還有很多沒有在這個檯面上的東西那另外一個是大家一直談說要廢除消失會議嗎我其實很想問廢除消失會議我們的恐龍的家長就會消失嗎我們這些紛爭跟就是糾紛他們就會不見嗎我覺得是不會的就是所以這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8615.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8644.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
我覺得制度不是問題是惡意濫用的問題所以我剛好提到就是在司法上它有誣告罪跟敗訴者負擔費用的機制來濫用訴訟但是現行的校士會議是對家長沒有制度它是零成本那怎麼樣這個我覺得建立一點成本惡質濫訴這個是我們也可以討論的一個方向像這個案例就是台灣的台南謝信教師一個家長不滿但是23個學童的受教權是侵害最後這個是駁回到司法才拿到 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8646.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8663.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
翻盤那再來是代理教師也是一樣他2023年被投訴之後在今年上個月拿到結果那這裡要跟就是次長跟處長討論一下在恢復正式教師他恢復片段假設他翻盤之後他有 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8664.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8686.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
捧回他的薪資可是代理教師在拿到翻盤的結果之後他的工作已經沒了他也沒辦法恢復薪資現在這個案例我們也正在討論是不是有機會再申請國賠那當然國賠我就在國賠以前的制度可不可以先在在這個制度的落實下保護代理教師那合會第三犯罪機構其實我要討論的是教育所謂戲劇當中的教權局其實在 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8688.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8706.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
韓國有一個叫做教育資源廳它其實是在涉及二級行政區那它要做什麼事情呢它就是有一個校園的法務去執行像學報專委就是學生暴力的單位調查機制就在另外一個它也有一些行政的負擔去抽離學校的負擔那另外一個是調節的機制跟議題的設施我真的覺得是也可以去討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8707.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8722.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
好 那再來我要談的是雖然今年真的有降低但是其實還是要提醒教育部在每一個宿舍的背後都是一個很辛苦的老師跟他的家庭背景他們每一個人面對的身心壓力跟狀態其實是消耗著現場包括我們年輕老師也是一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8724.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8744.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
其實在這兩個很沉重兩個禮拜很沉重的狀態下很多年輕老師在同時也正在考校正其實是一個這樣子的新聞跟氛圍是會沮喪的讓他們沒有勇氣再踏入教育現場所以真的希望立法者跟教育部可以一起來共同聆聽他們的聲音 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8755.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8764.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
下一位有請吳麗華委員不好意思我們委員發言完畢以後休息五分鐘好嗎謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8774.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8792.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
謝謝主席所有關心我們校士會議的學者專家朋友委員們媒體記者大家早安我認為校士會議理想上應該是一個備而不用的制度就如同我們的法律它是底線紅線而不是來當糾察隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8794.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8818.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
那回归到校士會議這個制度設立的初衷我們很了解它是為了要去處理過去很難處理的關於那些無法升任教學有不當重大歧視性騷或者體罰的老師來保障我們學生的一個權益建立一個讓校園更安全更值得信任的一個機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8820.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8836.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
这个目标我相信在座我们没有人会反对但是话说回来劳工在职场上有劳基法的保护老师在职场中却看到只有应尽的责任没有保护权利的机制 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8836.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8854.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
所以讓校士會議這個制度在實施的過程中變成許多第一線教師的壓力甚至是濫訴的一個情況讓人感到非常的憂心當我們看到校園已經出現了寒蟬效應 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8855.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8874.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
我们许多的老师开始进行防卫性的教学我们就要诚实的面对制度的理想跟实务的运作之间可能已经出现了落差在去年呢我担任第十一届第四会期民进党教育政策小组的召集人期间 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8875.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8894.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我跟许多的委员就开始关注校师会议制度衍生的问题所以特别跟多位关心教育议题的委员跟我们的教育部召开几次的教育政策会议要求就是要进行制度的修正讨论 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8895.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8910.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
那麼我們教育委員會也舉辦過公聽會廣泛蒐集教師團體校長團體家長團體以及各界專家的意見無非就是希望制度有沒有辦法把它修得更加周延 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8911.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8926.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
那麼在各界努力之下呢教育部在1月初完成了高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或資遣辦法還有公立高中以下學校教師的成績考核辦法這兩個辦法的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8928.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8950.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
那么建立更完整的受理程序也取消了匿名检举让案件回归到适当的分流机制等等的改革措施那当时呢我们也有做出一个要求请教育部承诺在新制实施半年之后也就是要在今年的7月 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8950.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8975.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
提出一个检讨报告要作为下一个阶段制度精进的重要依据那今天我们也看到了教育部提出来的一个统计结果新制上路以来呢投诉的案件与去年同期相比确实减少了一半以上那么送礼送入校室会议处理的案件数也大幅的下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8976.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9004.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
也就是說這個制度的調整確實有發揮了效果也讓過去許多不必要的爛訴 誤訴等案件也獲得了些許改善我們認為這是一個好的開始但是不是終點因為我們要追求的不是只有案件數量的下降而是需要一套真正能夠兼顧學生權益教師的專業以及程序正義的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9004.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9022.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
那我在这边要特别的提出就是其实我在第一线我听到很多的老师他们其实每一天都是很认真的付出陪伴孩子的成长处理学生的问题承担家长的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9022.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9043.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
但是呢看到媒體報導就是慢慢慢慢有很多很多老師的事件或孩子們的事件其實他們也會受到影響所以我在這邊希望我們的整個環境不要去忽略這些無數個默默奉獻的教育工作者 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9044.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9061.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
我也希望借這個機會能夠呼籲教育部除了要持續檢討消失會議制度更應該積極思考如何建立老師的一個支持系統甚至是完備如何讓老師受到權益的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9061.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9088.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
包括如何減輕老師的行政負擔如何增加教師的薪水如何給予一個教師的安全指引如何去保障老師的離線權如何強化老師的心理輔導的一個專業機制更重要的是希望我們教育部能夠多多的重視獎勵跟表揚的制度讓這一些優秀的老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9089.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9109.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
能够被看见被肯定被鼓励让我们这一些孩子能够感受到校园的温暖跟爱也让我们的家长更有信心因为我们很清楚教育无他为爱与榜样这是教育最初的出发点 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9109.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9129.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
所以我認為校事會議不是廢或不廢的問題而是我們如何透過制度的完善讓校事會議成為老師的專業被尊重學生的權益受保障讓家長放心讓孩子在學校的一個安全法 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9130.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9144.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
我再說一次我衷心盼望我們一同努力讓教育現場留下一個二於榜樣的美好圖像我們的目的只是希望讓這一些不適任 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9144.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9170.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
教学或者有重大危害的老师他们是极少数极少数希望我们的校务会议能够承担起这样倍而不用的责任也让我们的所有的老师能够生活在一个非常安心的环境这才是我们孩子的福气谢谢好谢谢吴丁华委员现在休息五分钟 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9195.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9207.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
大禮教授的那個位置那個位置最需要明鏡那個很花心思在決定做什麼在那最忙碌的那個位置他現在在做什麼他現在在做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9223.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9231.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
我跟妳講,數據是一樣的,我不是說暫暫之事,我不是說暫暫之事,我不是說暫暫之事我不是說暫暫之事,我不是說暫暫之事 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9247.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9248.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
一次打開一次開 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9278.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9278.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
這裏有個大廈 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9294.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9295.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
好 上去上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9313.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9313.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
這裏面就是關主樓 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9339.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9342.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9358.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9358.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
謝謝各位來賓 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9385.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9394.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
讓人家的感覺比較多的活動讓人家的心情更好讓人家的感覺更好讓人家的感覺更好讓人家的感覺更好讓人家的感覺更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9440.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9468.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
好 現在開會我們請陶連生理事長主席 各位委員 教育部的長官以及在座關心台灣教育的專家學者家長教育團體的先進們 早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9470.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9495.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
我是全國家長會長聯盟的理事長陶連生我們全長聯是由全國22個縣市從國小、國中、高中、高職等四個學層的各個學校家長會會長所組成的團體今天在這邊是代表我們全國各個學校長期在校園第一線服務包括每天風雨無阻的導護志工、晨光進班說故事的爸爸、媽媽們 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9497.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9508.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
以及投入補就教學的教育學校的教育志工最真實的現場的觀點因為我們在校園現場每天都看見孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9509.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9535.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
也同時看見老師基於這份教育現場的陪伴經驗我們看見孩子的需求的痛點以及第一線教師們的困境並且提出我們的核心主張是我們不把家長與教師視為對立面而是共同找出體制中該補的洞並且我們家長會在學校當中就一直都以是教育的合夥人自詡的團體今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9536.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9562.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
我們來看今天主要談的校士會議校士會議的初衷是處理對學生不當管教的校園事件但是今天我們看到的是校園體制正面臨雙重的失靈我們看到真正受傷的孩子在體制中被輕放但是認真的教師被查無實據的無限上綱投訴所拖垮 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9563.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9586.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
所以我們在這邊的建議是一套好的制度我們必須同時解決這兩端改革的方向不是更鬆或更緊而是能夠更精準另外我們根據教育部他們的資料我們可以看到我們的新制從115年1月12號實施以來我們可以看到在同期 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9589.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9608.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
115年1到4月對比114年1到4月當中我們可以看到修正前修正後的一些對照資料都可以看到各項的一個案件的減少以及在修正前跟修正後的一些比例那我們今天所要提到的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9609.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9637.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
我們可以看到校士會議它的分流看到一些的這個新制所以它的管教爭議逐步回歸前端而且它分流看到一個初步的成效這也是我們全長連在支持教育部在這個新法上面的一些的作為我們不支持廢除校士會議但是我們堅定的支持受理判斷與案件分流的持續深化減輕一切行政的壓迫 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9640.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9663.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
另外在這邊我們可以看到就監察院國家人權委員會他們從2017年8月到2023年7月跨新舊市的分析的這個4641案件來看到我們可以看到一些重大的一些案件當中只有70%僅計深屆以下或未懲處但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9667.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9687.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
在造成身心嚴重傷害 像體罰霸凌 仍有54%只有進入到身屆以下的處分所以校師會議的資源我們主張是必須要集中於精準辨識對重大侵害徹底到底實質來保障兒童兒少的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9689.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9700.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
近年來我們大概看到校園霸凌通報量暴增的新聞根據教育部統計我們從2021到2025年來看我們可以看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9701.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9730.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
的數量從1450件到增到4307件但是我們必須要說在實質的確認件數上面是持平並且稍微有點微降那這是代表來說我們看到的是更多的是因為現在師生家長們更願意出來講這代表了一個反應現況在一個知悉急報的原則落實之下大家更願意把它講出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9732.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9758.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
然後因為確認數並未有上升所以我們不應渲染校園是處於一個失控的狀態然後確認件難持平但是每一個真雖然持平但是每一個真實案個案的痛苦我們都不容忽視所以我們必須要理性的解讀通報量暴增不等於校園失控那校園的根據校園的這樣一個回報通常我們可以看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9760.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9784.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
在保護教師與這個部分我們的完整的校園安全網部分我們遺漏了些什麼在目前在學校師對生像不斷管教我們有校師會議的軌道我們來執行生對生霸凌跟性平部分我們有霸凌防治跟性平法的軌道來處置但對於生對師的暴力 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9785.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9807.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我們並沒有一個官方通報跟保障的軌道來執行以及高風險的學生在專業輔導量人不足導師現在都看第一線的導師來獨稱這部分所以我們的主張是真正的效益安全必須補上右側這兩塊長期的制度空白在這兩年當中我們可以看到的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9809.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9831.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
全台有89所學校回報發生過教師遭受學生肢體攻擊的事件那有超過半數的受害教師有經歷了嚴重的心理創傷但我們感到不可置信跟痛心的是目前現行制度對於這受傷老師並沒有保障受爆教師如果沒有嚴重到需要住院 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9832.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9858.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
那目前的慰問金只有區區三千元都荒謬到必須由校長自掏腰包來墊付所以我們必須要提出的是教育部應建立教師遭受暴力的官方正式通報與恐記軌道提供受暴教師合理的醫療協助法律諮詢跟創傷心理支持放寬受暴慰問金請領門檻由外部子來全面承接風險而非校園內部鄉人 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9859.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9880.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
我們的主張是一個連教師基本人身安全都無法捍衛的校園不可能給孩子真正的安全另外我們所看到的是在師生衝突管教爭議霸凌現象的這些現象都只是冰山一角我們看不見的源頭是在於高風險學生心理的問題特殊行為問題家庭失能 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9880.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9891.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
那目前食物現場龐大的風險與承接壓力都是在導致個人在獨撐那我們缺乏足夠的專業力量提早能夠介入那我們希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9902.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9923.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那我們希望是能夠從源頭來承接將我們的壓力從導師個人轉向專業的支持網絡在人力上面能夠補足人力的缺口全面檢討並充實專任輔導教師、心理師、學校、社工室等專業的能量並且能夠跨界早期介入打通輔導、社政、醫療 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9925.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9948.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
警政司法等跨界領域協助與轉介機制並且在能夠強化輕職義務支持修訂兒少權法增訂家長配合學校輔導管教之法並義務然後我們也希望能夠藉著在雙向受害端跟源頭也就是老師跟學生這個部分我們希望能夠孩子受害的能夠精準的測查 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9949.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9965.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
教師受報的制度承接以及高風險學生的輔導資源另外在家長申訴與溝通端我們也希望能夠正當的申訴權益能夠獲得保障受理機制能夠透明化青獅前端溝通機制能夠得以建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9967.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9983.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
另外我們全掌聯期許為孩子跟老師打造具備溫度的合理管教安全港能夠精準的來重大案件能夠查到底行為爭端能夠前端解決能夠完整的部分是不僅保障學生免於不當管教 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9983.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10004.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
以保障教師能夠免於校園暴力在治本方面希望能夠挹注輔導資源接住每一個可能最弱的高風險孩子我們希望能夠不恐慌不對立用精準的分流改革打造青獅身共好的友善校園以上 報告完畢謝謝大家好 謝謝理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10012.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10035.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
下一位彭淑燕輔導理事長有請主席 次長 署長還有各位前輩先進 大家好 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10037.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10052.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
今天要互相交流意见的主体原先是教育部在115年1月修正发布的这个高级中等以下学校教师解聘不需聘停聘或之前办法的修正条文 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10054.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10067.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
這是修正的核心意旨要健全校園以示違法案件檢舉的分流機制還有提升行政效能希望達到這樣的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10069.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10094.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
所以我們還是簡短的講一下全家盟在這件事情上面的立場修法以後教育部的政部長有提到說要先施行半年如果從今年的一月半年也都大概到七月的時候就會到了一個有盤點數據的時刻我相信各方都高度的期待這個盤點的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10097.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10117.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
對於今年立法院我們來的時候所附的資料裡面有一些政部長之前在媒體公開分享的資訊裡面可以看見在分流處理機制底下其實合作其實渴望未來可以更真友善還有共好 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10121.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10147.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
我相信全國的家長對這件事情也是高度的期待在現實面其實我們也深切的知道說立法跟修法實務上這次法規的修正是一場行政的效率跟教師權益的天平但是今天修正草案天平上的法碼是一個個我們的孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10149.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10176.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
在行政效率與教師的權益上一定要加上學生保護跟家長協同的機制才有可能達到天秤真正的平衡因此我們支持全加盟支持精簡行政但不應該以犧牲學生的安全還有剝奪家長的知情權作為代價 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10177.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10203.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
我們的修正建議就在報導處那裡有在那邊歡迎大家可以參考然後提供一些建議給一些指教我們的修正建議沒有要推翻新資的精簡架構只是精準的要在分流跟考核兩個關鍵點上補上一些我們看到的一些疏漏 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10206.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10210.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
其实呢全家盟其实呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10212.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10239.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
全家盟長期站在維護孩子的權益這件事情上面我們從來不敢懈怠也是我們放在最優先的順序上面此刻我站在這裡當然感謝委員會讓我們有機會對這件事情做一點表達但是我的內心是非常沉重的一整個早上我的心裡不斷的反覆的問我自己說 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10240.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10267.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
孩子真的是教育的主體嗎我們今天討論的事情裡面有人提到過孩子的權益嗎有人提到兒少應該受到保護的這個問題嗎當然每一個團體他有自己的立場這個我們能理解全家盟也認同絕大多數的老師都是孩子生命中的貴人 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10269.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10292.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
我們絕對表示敬意但是不適應的老師跟恐龍家長就是會有小比例的在教育現場這樣的狀況應該也能被理解所以呢家長端會有一些狀況跟問題我們能知道但是我們透過各種方法跟機制來協助輔導他 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10296.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10322.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
時代在改變但是我們的教育思維呢還可以繼續停留在二三十年前嗎在座的前輩先進門的孩子應該不會有校園衝突狀況的發生但是大家知道有多少弱勢孩子在全國各縣市有什麼樣的情況嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10323.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10341.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
全家盟在全國22個縣市我們有近30個家長團體會員我們有非常多的數據跟案例可以理解就是我們的孩子還有很多他今年在走廊趴在地上吃午餐的 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10343.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10362.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
有的正日都被老師大聲的喝斥然後做一些超乎他體力的各種的處罰甚至有需要幫老師做各項服務例如整理他的車子看他的車子來代替他的處罰或是特教生他長時間被 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10364.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10386.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
架在府居上沒有沒有正確的原因理由的然後整天下來要回家的時候他從府居上下來他直接貪婪在地上然後寸步難行就是說大家能理解教育現場的孩子到底面臨什麼樣的情況嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10389.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10413.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
這其中我們甚至還沒有提到性品相關的案件所謂狼屍的事情這些情況有些真的是匪夷所思但是如果不是我們今天看的教師解聘不續聘相關的辦法提供了他申訴的管道那這些事件有可能被看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10414.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10434.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
被處理進而有機會對孩子伸出援手嗎因此在有更好的申訴管道以前消失會議是絕對不能廢除的因為這會關閉了多數弱勢的孩子他求救的唯一管道家長呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10438.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10462.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
說真的也很心痛尤其最近講到高雄的教師的不幸事件我們要先表示傷痛跟遺憾但即便在高雄市政府它其實有出面說明該司並沒有任何校園事件相關的任何的投訴也沒有任何真相釐清的前提底下 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10463.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10479.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
到底是哪些團體哪些民意代表是怎麼樣的來操作這個議題甚至把它緊扣在校事會議必須廢除的因果關係裡面所以這其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10481.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10504.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
很令人遺憾我們不盲目護航任何不當的家長行為我們也認為家長需要得到教育主管機關的協助讓他們一起來成長但我們誓言捍衛過度就是要透過制度尋求真相的權利民主法治社會大家可以有 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10506.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10525.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
讓教育回歸理性 讓調查回歸法治素養嗎我們是孩子的榜樣 我們做什麼 孩子都在看當我們做很多不理性的發言 我們做很多刻意的操作大家覺得孩子真的不會有感受嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10527.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10553.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
還給台灣孩子一個安全、公平而且不會被權力壟斷的校園環境大家責無旁貸全家盟會堅定的支持校師會議這道保護孩子的最後防線還請在座各位教育專家、前輩、先進教育主管機關、立法委員、主公們共同來守護國家的孩子以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10557.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10566.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
好謝謝副理事長謝謝下一位葉明正副理事長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10573.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10596.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
主席各位委員各位在場的官員隨著參加各位媒體朋友大家好我是宜安縣教師會暨宜安縣教師職業工會的副理事長葉明正葉老師首先我要感謝趙偉今天安排這場公聽會然後來討論大家最近熱議非常多的消失回憶的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10597.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10625.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
那首先一開場的時候我要特別說明一下我討論的脈絡是在於信任關係這件事情上我從事教育工作到下個月剛好屆滿30年30年來的教育的專業跟工作的一個實務的經驗的體認告訴我教育工作很重要是建立在信任這個信任有兩道很重要的防線一個是親師之間的彼此託付 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10625.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10639.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
另外一個我是公立學校老師我覺得公立學校老師跟學校行政單位跟政府之間的那個相互支持的力量也是非常非常非常的重要如果還親師之間的信任 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10640.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10659.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
能夠是一致的目標是一致的那我們會對孩子形成非常強大的集體的效能感我們可以讓孩子能夠守住規範共同學習成長同樣的老師公立學校的老師跟政府之間彼此是信任的那種相互 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10660.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10684.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
做出專業支持然後彼此能夠去做奉獻的那一個那樣子的一個底氣是我們從事教育工作非常重要的一件事情那只是很不幸的是我從事教育工作30年之後我覺得這兩道我剛剛提到的對於台灣教育信任防線的這兩道防線現在正在潰堤中第一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10685.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10706.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
我們的教育現場青獅的一些信任關係受到非常多消費主義受到非常多客訴文化的侵蝕所以我們的教育工作逐漸變成是一種顧客至上的服務業的一種性質青獅溝通好像變成變質的是一種售後的服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10707.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10729.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
在這樣的邏輯之下很多老師他出於他專業判斷責任心判斷的一些管教的約束可能都會變成被某一部分家長當作是服務瑕疵當作做出投訴這個在早些年已經開始存在了然後更有趣的就是在這個過程中 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10730.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10745.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
教育主管機關沒有成為我們老師的後盾然後呢在2020年的時候我們弄了解聘辦法設置了校職會議制度讓剛剛的那種投訴或者是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10748.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10769.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
特殊的管道變得更加的什麼便利這樣子一個類在校園裡面一個類似法的一個系統就剛好可以跟前面提到的那種親師關係的那個改變完全對接上來所以造成我們現在有這麼多的一個全面的一個要去檢討這個制度好 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10771.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10786.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那今天呢我們來討論的是教育部目前所宣稱的改革的方案剛剛大家談了很多但是就在今天報告的第五頁但是大家都沒有忘記教育部的統計資料是怎麼來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10787.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10807.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我們來自學校現場所以教育部是每個月要求學校做填報現在各位委員各位大家都可以看到這是我們在學校做的填報我們目前所說降低百分之二十降低到成案率很低的在教育部的要求裡面他要求各校填報的是僅限專任老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10808.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10833.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
可是解聘辦法第61條規範準用的人非常非常的多剛剛也有代理老師的團體在表達說年輕的老師遇到什麼困擾請大家仔細看教育部的調查是排除準用的對象所以指察專任缺逗調的準用你的法理設計跟你的調查是不match的 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10834.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10860.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
是完全不配合的這個應該不是這個是在各縣市所收到的資料所以我要跟大家說我們現在在資料上部裡面所宣稱的改善的依據基本上是一個殘缺的調查是一個失真的調查所以要據此去宣稱目前的改革是有效果的我覺得我提醒次長提醒署長要非常的謹慎不要根據這個做出錯誤的判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10863.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10890.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
因為這個是部裡面說每個月定期回報的公文我們是有憑有據的上面的文號都有你限定了那個調查的對象所以剛剛也有特別提到22%好像案件變少了可是我跟大家說我相信再多很多老師都會同意恐懼依然是存在的剛剛也有代表提到每一個案件他要歷經二到三個月的等待 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10891.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10920.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
所以數字下降了但是我要跟次長說我剛剛一開始提到的信任崩解還是百分之百我們沒有辦法目前的討論的範圍沒有辦法去解決我剛剛提到的信任關係之一老師跟行政單位跟政府之間的那個關係那個是你的校場裡面做不出來的第二個我覺得教育部第五頁裡面沒有去提到他自己4月29號的公文 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10921.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10935.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
我們現在新的解併辦法有做分流有做分流案件請揭曉無涉及及停解併事項可以完到考核會去然後教育部原來的宣稱的設計是要改之後校內調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10937.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10953.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
這一份4月29號教育部自己的公文裡面證實了一件事情他裡面特別說他根據各縣市回報的資料啊發現有非常多的縣市在處理剛剛說的應該要分流應該小案小辦的甚至是用輔導先行的案子的時候他發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10955.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10982.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
直接委託進行外部調查的比例甚高與我們這個修正的意旨是不相符的這個我完全引述教育部的公文的用詞所以教育部自己的公文其實是證實了不是只有防衛性教學各位 我原本要跟你提醒在學校因為長期的不信任我們也是防衛性的行政所以很多的學校的校長主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10982.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11004.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
他也是近若寒蟬所以他最後覺得他要去相信或是一定要往這個方向做所以你做的再多的目前所宣稱的改革在布裡面的公文自己寫的未服啊未服改革的意旨所以這方面一定布裡面應該有資料呈現可是我們在今天的報告裡面是完全看不到的所以我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11006.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11030.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
所以直接進到我的重點啦所以我今天也要呼應剛剛前面有幾位委員說過小修小補其實沒有辦法解決信任的問題這個制度所造成的那個信任的裂痕是非常非常的大所以呢我們會希望委員會裡面能夠真的實質的去在 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11031.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11040.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
做對於解併辦法進行實質的審查依照新制之宣法62條的話看是不是直接把這個解併辦法更正或廢止 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11042.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11066.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
那我們也理解剛剛家長的聲音我們認為我們學校現代化的學校還是會面臨各式各樣的投訴跟檢舉但是我們認為檢舉跟陳情是應該要分流的檢舉是一定涉及到法規面很嚴重的這個部分但是一般的陳情就是應該以溝通跟協調處理優先那我們特別要提醒的是大小案 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11068.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11093.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
都要調查是在國教署自己的公文裡面是也是具體呈現的那麼未來的制度的改革如何避免這個爛數去癱瘓行政這個是我們在建構新的制度上面要特別提到的那最後最重要一點的是我們有在現場看過太多的案子其實最後的這個發動者跟施壓者都並不是學校而是來自於教育局處 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11095.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11119.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
這個制度的設計裡面有沒有一個這樣子防衛或者是一個相對的機制來做這個區塊其實在目前的解併辦法或者是考核辦法裡面其實是沒有這個區塊的那再次強調小修小補沒有辦法解決那個信任的危機這裡可能很顯然需要一個結構性的改變好 暫用大家的時間 以上發言 謝謝好 謝謝副理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11125.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11141.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
待會所有專家學者跟委員發言完畢以後機關會有回應那也請機關再準備現在有請徐峻龍理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11144.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11159.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
主席 各位出席的委員還有教育部的官員還有各位教育先進我是全國將教育志工聯盟理事長徐俊榮當然我們聯盟裡頭有團體會員也有個人會員也是分布在台灣各地 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11159.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11183.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
那我這邊今天代表來也是但剛聽了前面很多先進的報告我想大家每個人心中有一把尺或有不同想法我們都可以與尊重但是青獅身大家都有談到他的權益怎麼均等怎麼保障那合理的管教甚至有對孩子的一些保護的機制我想確實是需要我們來深思的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11184.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11211.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那全志盟這邊有發現校園我們主張應該要分輕重來處理校園的一些事件保障正當的申訴那過濾惡意的投訴多數家長他其實要的只是保障把孩子的問題解決就好不是要跟教師對立所以全志盟這邊主張是校士會應該要分流受理的標準要分開 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11212.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11230.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
是可以預期的讓家長看得懂讓教師有保障簡單來說就是勿往勿縱今天任何的調查不管是對誰也不是只有對教有時候也是會有對行政人員或者有調查其他的部分但是我覺得都是回歸到一句勿往勿縱 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11231.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11247.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
那首先我針對青士生的部分我快速的來講一下首先對於老師還是非常感謝老師當然老師在教學的現場確實面臨很大的挑戰我記得小時候看到老師都要敬禮現在有打招呼的算不錯應該是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11250.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11274.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
各縣市全國也都有教師相關的團體當然不是每個老師都有加入我覺得老師還是有他的管道也可以發聲學生跟老師相處的時間可能比家長更久很多都是匆匆回去整理好第二天孩子已經睡第二天就準備要上學了所以確實認真的老師我們要肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11274.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11292.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
那如果發現不適任的老師我們還是希望他能夠被發現跟協助那再來學生的部分學生的部分不要說國中小國中以上大孩子今天在座的如果都是師長他有問題他敢在師長面前反映嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11293.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11320.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
這大家思考一下我們再回過來講如果是學前幼兒園或者是國小的孩子他敢跟師長反映嗎如果在學校有問題還是都是回去家長不經意的問了隨口問了這是我們收集來的一些經驗弱勢的一方看起來就是學生很奇怪的是每次發生有爭議的地方就是監視器沒有裝的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11321.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11338.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
其他地方都有裝發生衝突的地方剛好都沒裝所以我們藉此也呼籲在學校的活動場域或教學場域其實必要的地方還是要裝監視器再來我們的這個青少年青少女我們的孩子越來越大 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11339.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11355.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
當然也會有一些對立反抗或者是當然很遺憾的有看到像台北市有些拿刀傷害同學這大概國小的高一年級的這些那我覺得這個在處理上如同剛剛可能有一些教育先進題的學校或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11356.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11385.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
縣市政府甚至中央應該要更強硬的來處理或者更投入更多關切而不是每次學校都回覆不管是受害的一方或是加害的一方都跟他們講沒什麼事我覺得這個其實沒辦法處理任何的事情就掩蓋他不會解決是問題他只會部落更多我們希望大家有問題好好處理但也不希望實施相互這個狀況最後家長他要希望真人 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11385.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11410.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
現在教育部都呼籲大家一起來徵人我們家長在職期間我們工作也希望去徵人啊剛剛有教育協定講家長其實來投訴這個是不用成本我要告訴大家我們是需要成本如果是有在上班的家長第一個他申請教室會議他也要接受調查不管他陪同孩子或他實際出席他要不要去調查他學校都要求要在上課時間調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11412.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11427.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
那家長要不要請假要嘛你完了之後你申請調查報告你要不要申請調查報告要再去一次學校兩次你最後去學校拿報告要再去一次要再上課上班時間你要不要請你要請三次最少 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11428.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11448.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
這個是有成本不是沒有那學生剛剛前面教育先生有講學生由家長領回後有沒有真的協助大部分的學校沒有我可以誠實講有協助我不能完全講沒有但是很有限就是說既然有這個狀況先帶回去三天五天 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11449.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11472.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
很關心的學校就打個電話有提供他線上課程嗎有提供他輔導其他的資源嗎其實沒有欸或者就要求他這個不是黑人的孩子尤其私校是更直接做嘛就是要求他轉校那請教請他轉校也沒有問題問題請他轉校有給提供這孩子這個家庭家長任何的協助嗎也沒有嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11474.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11500.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
我們學校不想處理問題我把它丟到別的學校讓別的學校去處理你轉型搞不好都沒有講很清楚我覺得這個是其實在整個大教育都是合伙人不應該是這樣做我確實也承認有些有高風險的家庭也不是每個家長都喜歡去徵人願意學習那就是我們的家庭教育中心各縣市都有中央有編列經費縣市你有編列經費縣市你也在管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11501.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11528.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
那為什麼這個功能都一直不髒呢對不對從潘部長講到鄭部長這個家庭教育的功能每個縣市都有中心都有為什麼沒有辦法達到它的效果那我想還是回歸到我前面的我們尊重所有團體不同團體的發言我覺得大家也是經過深思熟慮不會隨便開發言但是我們呼籲我們希望全智能希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11529.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11550.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
如果在學校啟動校事會議前有一些機制像校事會議的調和機制現在不就很好嗎我自己有調查員資格他這個機制都很好但是能不能在調查前校長在前端你作為校支長你下面有教師會家長會大部分的學校都有嘛不是嗎你不能協調嗎你當一個校長沒辦法協調嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11553.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11563.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
應該他能夠站出來跟青獅做溝通或召集來溝通形成一個制度然後讓問題減少我的報告這邊 謝謝好 謝謝徐理事長下一位有請范雲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11585.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11606.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
謝謝主席在場我們所有關心教育現場的夥伴大家好我想最近校園持續發生很多的事真的讓大家憂心忡忡我自己也是第一線的教師雖然是大學但是教育的本質沒有改變我認為也感受到制度如何能夠保護老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11607.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11629.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
老師的熱情那真的非常的重要那也是基於這樣子一個理念我想我們今天討論校事會議不應該只停留在要不要廢除這個題目這個主題因為為什麼會有校事會議那本來就有他要處理的問題過去長期社會質疑說不適任教師處理不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11629.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11654.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
實施相互重案侵犯那也的確過去是因為有學生家長覺得當學生受到教師的不當管教霸凌或是權力侵害的時候學校內部機制未必可信所以校士會議的出現不是沒有原因那教育部走到現在也的確不斷的在因應各種的問題然後提出改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11655.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11673.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
不过当然这几年的争议也让我们看到问题的另外一面第一线教师是真的感受到原本可以透过亲师沟通校内行政处理辅导或调整的事件最后却会被推进高度严肃的调查程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11674.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11695.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那即使最後沒有成立這整個過程中教師已經承受了身份被標記名譽受損長期的不確定那最後就導致教學現場不敢管不敢教的壓力剛剛很多教師也都表達了這種壓力我想也就是因為這個現況 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11697.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11724.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
那句話如果大人害怕小孩這個世界就完蛋了那這句話才會打中很多人的心裡所以我覺得今天我們的重點是要去平衡如何把老師看得很重要每一個老師都重要還有每一個學生都重要所以到底有沒有一個制度可以把不同類型的事件放到正確的程序裡面處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11726.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11729.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
讓老師跟學生都覺得能夠安心他被保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11731.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11756.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
所以其實從去年的年中就是2025年年中開始我透過質詢總質詢很多的機會提出過多次獨立於校園的第三方機制的重要性很高興代理教師公會還有全教總還有台灣家長聯盟還有人本基金會也都認同這個方向跟這個概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11757.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11782.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
我也想透过今天的公听会再把这个概念具体执行的面向讲得更清楚最近大家很关注的韩剧铁拳教育我也看了也请我办公室一起研究韩国的真正制度的设计心得想跟大家分享我觉得这个改革如果我们现在想要去思考的话可以从两个面向来讨论 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11783.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11805.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
第一個是一個比較窄的版本也就是只處理失對生的案件因為過去的不信任有一部分是失對生重點是把現行失對生權利侵害的案件從單一學校的壓力場域移出來由可被信任的更高的獨立第三方機制處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11807.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11821.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
為什麼要這樣做因為大家都知道師對生涉及的是高度的權力的敏感高度的專業如何被雙方信任程序嚴格衝突性非常強的調查工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11822.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11842.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
那这种调查工作如果你压在单一的学校其实对学生不一定公平对老师也不一定公平那对校长跟行政人员更是一个很大的压力那如同很多老师的感受学校是教育现场不应该被迫变成一个办案的现场 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11843.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11869 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
因此第三方机制应该包含的是受理审查案件分流还有调解的支持正式的调查报告品质的控管跟处置的建议如果涉及重大的不当管教体罚霸凌严重侵害学生权益的那可能会涉及教师是不是适任的案件的调查应该由第三方调查 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11869.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11885.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
但是很重要的就是一般的親師誤解日常管教爭議溝通程序的衝突不應該直接進入重大調查程序可是也應該要有專業的調解跟支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11886.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11904.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
不過這個機制不能夠完全回應目前很多教師團體提出來的爛訴、無成本申訴這些問題那我的觀察看到有很多人主張申訴要繳保證金或者申訴不成立要繳交費用來防止爛訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11905.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11924.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
我覺得可以理解為什麼會有這樣的主張但是呢制度設計上如果把申訴不成立直接等同於二億爛訴或者是用保證金來設計恐怕會變成阻撓了學生跟家長的合理申訴所以我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11925.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11934.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
真正要處理的是明知不實反覆威脅性騷擾性濫用程序侵害教育活動的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11936.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11960.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
也就是因為有這樣子的一些聲音我覺得制度設計應該轉換思路韓國的經驗給我一個重要的啟示就是韓國近年討論的所謂的教權保護並不是說教師不用被問責絕對不是說教師不用被問責而是承認學校不應該獨自承擔高衝突事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11960.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11974.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
更重要的是不應該讓教師孤身面對惡意的投訴家長騷擾跟教育的活動被侵害所以韓國有這個教權保護委員會跟教育活動保護的制度設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11976.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11992.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
也要提醒大家這跟戲劇化的鐵拳教育不同我們要學的不是鐵拳而是韓國的這個教育活動保護的制度如何把高衝突事件外部化專業化跟程序化 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11993.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12008.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
所以防止濫訴除了前端的管控排除匿名跟沒有具體事證案件外可以建立的另外一條路是把惡意反覆威脅性騷擾性明知不實或濫用程序的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12010.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12034.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
定義為教育活動受侵害同樣可以交由第三方機制審議調解警示保護必要的時候提出後續的程序建議那這樣做的好處是它不會壓制學生跟家長的合理申訴也真正能夠保護教師對濫用程序騷擾教師干擾教育活動的行為建立清楚的處理路徑 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12035.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12053.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
所以我想这两个功能很重要我们同时保护了教师让教师能够依法教学辅导管教但是也保护了学生让他有一个可信任的机制避免学生单处单独承担调查的压力 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12054.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12075.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
所以我覺得好的制度不應該是讓學生跟教師彼此對立是要避免教師被濫縮的時候孤立無援學生受害的時候無法信任然後學校的行政被夾在中間也就是說要讓大人不害怕小孩但是小孩又得到保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12076.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12093.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
所以我們需要的是一個能夠分流調解支持調查跟保護的第三方機制也讓重大的案件被認真處理讓日常衝突不要被辦案化這條路真的很不容易情緒就是真的非常的強烈 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12094.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12112.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
可是這個制度的改革其實並不容易那也謝謝大家一直關心第一線的狀況那一起走這條不容易路我想最後只有教師得到保護能夠安心家長能夠放心我們的教育才能夠回到教育本身謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12125.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12150.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
我們先處理會議時間公聽會上午的會議時間繼續進行到所有發言均結束為止我們最後一位發言是中華公民人權協會理事長蔡佩華有請 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12158.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12177.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
各位主席次長署長教育先進媒體朋友大家好我是中華公民人權協會代表我們是一個關懷身心醫療領域不當對待的非營利組織我自己本身也是第一線的教育工作者感謝有機會參與校事會議制度的相關公聽會本會將以盡情 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12180.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12205.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
高雄岡山國小女教師的事件帶給社會一個沉重的提醒當校園發聲輕視衝突管教正義時若國家缺乏完善的支持與標準化程序第一線教師極容易在漫長的行政調查及巨大的心理壓力下成為制度的犧牲品這並非單一個案我們今天發言並非否定心理輔導及精神醫療的價值而是要嚴肅指出當前 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12207.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12231.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
體制的兩大結構性問題並提出具體的流程優化建議第一停止將精神醫療作為處理行政衝突與約束教師聲音的不當工具教師與學校之間的行政爭議教學評價或職場衝突在實務上我們看到缺乏完整事實釐清前教師在極端壓力下產生的焦慮恐懼或無懼 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12233.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12257.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
被轻率的简化为个人的精神适应问题甚至被引导至精神医疗的强制或半强制介入世界卫生组织在精神医疗人权与立法指引中明确强调精神照护应最大程度保障单身人的自主决定与知情同意在本会长期的观察中在这类高压的医疗介入往往在秩序不对等与心理胁迫 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12258.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12287.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
之下我們必須呼應精神醫療診斷絕不能掩蓋行政管理的失能更不應成為約束或懲罰吹哨教師然後異議教師的工具國家面臨學校危機事件必須建立透明可受監督且嚴守知情同意原則的人權防線明確化定學校正義調查與個人醫療評估的界線第二建構校園輔導管教的系統支持標準作業流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12287.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12312.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
近年來隨著特殊需求學生增加與輕視衝突升溫基層教師不僅在教書中更被迫在缺乏系統支持的情況下獨自接觸所有的社會與家庭問題不論是對待承受巨大壓力的教師還是面臨有適應困難的學童目前的體制都陷入了資源匱乏的無奈與缺乏緩衝的快速醫療化漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12313.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12339.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
當教師出現了狀況體系沒有給予實質的輔導緩衝區往往導致教師耗解或是被迫尋求單一的醫療求生出口因此我們主張的核心理念教育輔導先行以符合教師法中的保障教師應依法執行教學輔導與管教職者把教權還給教師真正成熟的教育制度不應讓學生家長 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12340.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12367.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
與教師成為對立的狀態因此本會提出以下制度重建建議依盤點輔導管教與教育線型的實務做法應以具有法源依據的全校性輔導管教SOP與實務操作手冊在目前的教育現場基層的教師每日皆以依循線型的體制執行諸如正向管教措施以及尋求校內的特教專輔資源等 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12370.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12388.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
辅导管教与教育现行的实务做法然而在这些常规的实务做法手段面临了极端挑战时现有的指引往往无法提供实质的行政庇护教师在教学现场需要的是全面性的制度支持并非穷尽现行做法后 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12389.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12404.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
或獨自接觸所有的社會與家庭問題教育部及地方的教育局處應正式整合這些現行的實務做法進一步制定具強制力全國統一具可操作性的前置輔導標準作業流程SOP與實務手冊 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12407.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12431.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
透過建立明確的SOP防護傘讓第一線的教師在依循實務做法進行輔導管教時若遭遇了輕視衝突無端的濫訴特殊行為學生或是處罰少年時都能輕心的依用法源的依據並獲得來自部會及局處的階層的實質的後盾徹底拒絕讓基層的教師單打獨鬥二強化危機介入的獨立人權監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12433.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12455.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
極致 針對涉及一限制人身自由與高度心理破壞的精神照護與行政的處置措施 應建立定期與非預期的外部的監督域 申訴管道 確保處置環境符合國際人權最小清台原則各位委員老師不是教育制度最後的最重要的防線 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12457.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12483.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
真正的人權教權是允許教育現場有合理的空間與資源去解決問題當一個老師被不理性的投訴摸到睡不著他需要的是學校幫他擋住不合理的壓力是法務人員給他諮詢而不是被體系暗示你情緒不太穩定要不要去看精神科我們要求劃定這一條界線就是要給老師一個基本的人權的防線如果一個制度讓老師承受在巨大壓力時得不到系統支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12484.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12507.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
在发出求救讯号时面临的精神医疗标签威胁受伤是将整个教育生态的未来期盼透过明确的法治化与流程改造我们将打造一个亲师生共好的教育环境在这里补充说明透过教育部的校安系统数据而烧自杀自伤的从2019年的4477人次到2023年增加到1万 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12512.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12539.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
5196人次造成這樣的數字背後隱藏的是什麼樣的訊息這是我們值得去省思的快樂的老師才有快樂的學生我們應該要做點什麼才能在對的時間接住無力的老師與求救的孩子謝謝大家好 謝謝學者專家還有委員均已發言完畢剛剛有提到如果有需要第二輪發言的學者專家可到主席台登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12541.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12554.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
如果沒有的話 我們就要請機關來回應好 那現場都沒有的話那我們就請機關代表來回應 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12559.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12586.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
好謝謝主席今天召開公聽會那麼今天聆聽了多達14位我們專家學者各團體的代表以及我們有5位立法院的委員來表達意見那因為詢問這個表達的意見相當多我簡單來回應就是第一個我們今天的報告裡面提到我們公布數據其實不是要沾沾自喜而是檢討這個制度上 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12587.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12600.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
它要改進的一個初步的一個效果那是不是有辦法馬上就解決我們現在教學現場所會產生的這個當然有教師代表提到的信任崩解的問題我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12602.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12621.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
當然是沒有辦法一下子能夠馬上來解決但是我們希望制度的改善確實有達到了一些效果的時候呢那是一個改革的第一步那也是我們努力的一個方向也在這裡做說明那有關這個數據裡面也有老師提到說這個只有針對專任教師那事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12621.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12647.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
沒有錯我們在去年公布數據的時候他比對的就是專人教師所以今年一到四月的數據當然也是專人教師也沒有所謂美化數據的問題這個我也要在這邊做一個澄清那麼其實還有很多的這個專家學者有提到就是說包括我剛才聽到我們高雄工會的任老師提到就是說現在的那個管理與輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12649.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12670.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
這個目前只停留在這個辦法的階段執法那是不是要進一步入法這個坦白講我個人是支持的就是說這是一個考慮的方向但是要怎麼樣入法讓家長讓這個教師以及這個所有的相關的團體都能夠接受這個也是一個重大的工程不過在 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12671.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12682.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
做這個是否把它法制化的一個前提我們會先就目前的辦法裡面去優化一些措施譬如說我們有一些正向管教 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12683.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12711.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
如果已經有列舉的那23條24條24條裡面有明定不罰那23條那些正向的一個管教措施是不是也可以進一步在辦法裡面加上免罰就是不受處罰那這樣子呢在我們這個是不是要把它法制化的這個過的這個之前呢我們先做這一部分讓老師在現場管理的時候做輔導管理的時候能夠有比較具體的保障那 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12712.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12738.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
因為有很多的委員提到喔就是剛才包括陳培宇委員范委員提到第三方機制的一個制度的問題我想我們在這個1月12號公布完我們大概下個月中我們會公布所有詳細的數據喔然後我們會做一個檢討報告那至於第三方機制的問題我們會做一個也會來探討它是不是有建立的一個可行性喔那還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12739.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12748.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
我們大家都看了鐵錢教育我也看了我用禮拜六日我看了十幾我全部把它看完其實我覺得這一步韓國的這個教權的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12752.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12776.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
對照台灣目前教權面臨的問題它還是有一些不一樣我還是相信台灣的老師他所處的一個環境雖然相對不利但是我相信台灣還是一個比較理性能夠溝通的社會我為什麼這樣說呢我相信老師對很多孩子他一定是生命中的貴人我個人就遇到了三個老師對我就是一個貴人那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12777.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12803.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
職場上剛才有老師提到我們教育團體提到教師的這個地位或者說親師生之間溝通上信任的一個崩解那跟這幾年的變化是不是有整個社會環境的變化是不是有關係呢當然是有那至於說我們怎麼樣去強化剛才很多委員跟代表也提到包括郭育群委員吳比華委員林玉菁委員也都提到說那老師在學校裡面的處境這樣我們怎麼樣子強化對老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12805.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12830.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
的一個支持系統我也跟大家報告在2019年教師法修了之後我們已經入法了就是一定要要讓這個教師支持系統成法制化目前我也跟大家報告教育部從編列600萬預算到6000萬大概明年會再增加到1億左右就是在做教師諮商的一個輔導系統各縣市的建立我親自負責這個項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12831.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12859.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
那我也記得在去年在做報告的時候去年是苗栗縣政府他們已經成立了這個系統那其他各縣市等於在運作或許剛開始這幾年運作起來對於教師的輔導諮商系統的運作沒有像台北市台北市其實在這個系統建立之前就已經成立了對於老師的一個支持諮商心理諮商輔導的支持他是比較完善的那我這部分呢我覺得確實是有空間來 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12863.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12882.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
能夠推動的更好另外有提到就是說老師面臨到權益侵害的時候如果行政系統上能不能提供更多的法律諮詢或者是有一些主動的法律的諮詢服務我也跟我們的業務同仁講說在我們教師輔導諮商系統裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12884.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12906.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
有可能把這個法律主動支持老師的這個諮詢服務能夠納入這個裡面的一個相關的計畫來辦理讓老師遇到困難的時候除了可以到這中心去尋求諮商輔導之外也有一些法律的一個支援那最後呢我還是要感謝各位先進我想制度不會一下子 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12907.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12932.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
面臨的問題不會一下子就消失我看了體權教育之後我也深深的感觸到就是說教權的保護裡面很多的那句話就是說如果連大人都怕小孩的話那就完蛋了我也覺得我也希望老師在教學現場裡面不用懼怕只要是正當的輔導管理管教那我相信他是不用懼怕的那我們朝這個方向繼續努力也謝謝大家提供的意見我們會繼續檢討 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12942.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12964.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
謝謝張亮萬堅次長那接下來是主席結語啦不好意思因為我沒辦法去發言所以只能透過這個機會來跟大家分享一下那我想昨天我自己呢也花了大概一個半小時來閱讀鐵拳教育的這個戲劇但是我是精簡版的解說 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12966.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12976.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
那看了很過癮但我還是那句話這畢竟是戲劇我們應該要探討的是為什麼我們會有這麼多的共鳴 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12977.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13003.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
相關的修法制度如何能夠落實所以在質詢的過程我想我也跟國教署特別分享在於2023年韓國發生了這個自殺事件以後所相關後續帶來的入法教權能夠直接透過入法來完善整個老師的權益我們還是要講 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13005.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13025.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
剛剛有委員提到有關於我們正在努力的過程包括還老師清白能夠拿回本縫跟相關的研究佳績我認為這些都是再基本不過的事情我們只是補了漏洞並不是做了改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13026.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13054.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
也不是在把后续该还给相关权益的一个作为纳为我们改革的最重要的一个措施而是应该从源头开始去处理我们当然认同一定要有一个申诉的机制但是更加的公平但是要保障老师的前提然后减缓整个教学现场的困境这是我们应该要做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13055.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13079.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
我必須還是要再一次的跟國教署以及張亮萬間次長特別的拜託剛剛我們有專家學者所提到的教學現場困境包括鼓勵孩子要關門避免這個冷氣不冷那因為三次以後呢就會關閉電源那導致家長開始申訴進入到這樣的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13084.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13113.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
看起來文字上所提到的這個案件是正當管教但是所後面衍生出來的相關機制讓老師是不是會感到心灰意冷甚至是防禦性教學這個我們真的要面對這個問題而且這個問題已經在發生我自己曾經接到一個檢舉案件家長跟我講說是性平案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13115.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13144.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
我非常重視也很擔憂相關的案件發生結果學校來跟我解釋案件的發生內容因為男同學跟女同學上課特別的熱絡聊天影響到了相關的教學現場老師問他一句Do you like her?你喜歡她嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13145.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13173.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
就被告性平案件相關的調查大概好像聽說應該是六七個月聽完這個案件的發聲我還是尊重專業的機制去做審理不介入但是我們也必須反思如果在教學現場遇到了這樣的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13176.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13201.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
老師全面的不理會做自己的工作持續的教學不去管理現場的教學品質最後的受害者是老師嗎我相信應該是同學所以我們更希望國家署有給我們回應說在這一次的檢討預計在7月15左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13204.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13233.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
會再公佈新的辦法做分析然後七月的時候會公佈相關的分析結果我們都希望能夠看到滾送式的修正我也要真的拜託雖然擔任主席我們不希望有太偏的立場來主持會議但今天我們看到許多的專家學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13235.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13248.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
所討論的有共識的部分是不是能夠趕緊納入在6月底的時候不管是分析在7月公佈的時候是不是能夠先把共識的部分趕緊加緊研議趕緊加緊來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13251.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13271.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
那沒有共識的部分我們再透過後續的探討修正甚至有更多的機會我們來是不是來檢討再來討論這個當然我們可以再好好的做下來再說但是有共識的部分真的要拜託我們再搶時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13272.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13296.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
我也認同張亮萬劍次長所說的沒辦法一次到位但我們希望透過滾動式的修正給教學現場更多的希望每一次的給予希望都是讓教學現場給老師再一次的強行爭這個也是很重要的所以要拜託我們現場所有的與會長官 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13298.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13313.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
還有次長署長能夠把現階段我們看到的共識部分趕緊加以完成以上本日上午公聽會到此告一段落感謝所有的與會者從不同的面向提供的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13315.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13339.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
這些都是我們今天最寶貴的意見但我也要再一次的特別感謝啦那我們都有看到現場提供的文字那也感謝你們做很精美的PTT來做講解那我也有看到幾位與會的專家學者有提供實際的修法建議提供條文建議這個我要拜託大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13340.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13362.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
那是不是能夠也一起共襄盛舉未來有實際的條文修正建議也能夠提供給我們或者是會後我的辦公室都非常樂見大家能夠提供給我們我們第一個不管我們認不認同我們一定會做到基本的工作就是幫你轉達讓機關能夠來參考這個是最重要第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13366.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13393.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
我們也需要你們的實際條文修正的建議讓我們在修法的過程當中避免自嗨避免同溫層另外我們也需要各方的建議我們畢竟不是最專業的沒有人可以一個人達到修法完美所以更需要大家跟我們在會後有更多的寶貴意見的交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13395.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13415.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
今天各位的发言内容跟书面的资料均列入记录刊登公报并制作成公听会的报告送交本院全体的委员还有出席的与会人员参考再次感谢出席今天举办的公听会谢谢大家现在散会 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13419.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13434.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
我們會場有準備便當請各位記得帶走那千萬不要客氣因為您的客氣會造成我們的困擾這個便當我們還是希望大家能夠盡量的把它物盡其用不要浪費食物謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13439.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13449.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
對不起我想最後請與會同仁我們專家學者還有張亮萬間次長彭署長來到前面我們這一排來做一個大合照謝謝 |