| IVOD_ID |
17511 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17511 |
| 日期 |
2026-06-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-36-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
18 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-06-10T08:33:46+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-06-10T12:07:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:33:14 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc345d10eba1810039d10b8dc1cc29a6b26dbd1a1f1ae502163fa02d4408a5fd395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-06-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查
（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案」案。
（二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案」案。
【6月10日會議僅進行詢答】
【6月10日及11日兩天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:33:46 - 12:07:00 |
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報告委員會初期委員7人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會好我們現在開會喔那首先先進行報告事項那麼先請宣讀上次的會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1623.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1647.217 |
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立法院第十一屆第五會期司法及法治委員會第十七次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十五年六月八日星期一上午九時至十二時五十四分地點本院紅樓三零二會議室出席委員陳昭斯委員等十一人列席委員洪孟凱委員等八人列席官員法務部部長鄭明謙等人主席翁昭基委員小林 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1647.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1674.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
報告事項一宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二邀請法務部部長內政部警政署署長交通部衛生福利部海岸海洋委員會海巡署財政部官務署教育部數位發展部就從源頭查緝到道路安全我國奪品犯罪與獨家防治政策進行專題報告並被質詢本次會議有委員吳宗憲等16人提出質詢委員蔡其昌等5人提出書面質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1676.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1685.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員執行時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會宣讀完畢好 那麼我們議事錄就稍後確定那麼接著我先介紹現在到場的委員有成招之委員好 那今天到場的應要列席官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1704.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1711.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
人事行政總署的副人事長張副人事長好 權敘部的全省司司長彭國華彭司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1716.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1736.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那其餘沒有介紹的列席代表請參與名單就不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄那本次會議為兩天一次會議今天的議程排定討論事項是併案審查台灣民眾黨黨團以及委員翁曉琳等18人分別擬聚的軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案兩案那本日是僅進行詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1739.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1757.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那麼現在我們就先請提案委員來進行說明每位發言時間三分鐘那麼提案人是台灣民眾黨黨團代表因為不派代表發言那接下來我想請陳昭芝委員來代主席那本席待會要進行提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1767.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1769.925 |
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好 麻煩翁委員進行提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1775.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1802.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
主席還有各位委員以及在場的部會機關官員們大家好那今天要向各位來說明軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案的修法重點那我們照長期以來其實軍公教人員的待遇調整機制都是只有依照行政院所訂定的全國軍公教員工待遇知己要點來辦理那由行政院人事總處收集資料之後再提起軍公教員工待遇審議委員會來審議然後之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1804.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1823.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
由行政院決定是否調整以及調整的幅度然而如此攸關數十萬軍公教人員權益的重大事項到現在為止都沒有法律明文規範而且也欠缺法律明文的授權依據它的合法性以及正當性早就受到各界的質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1824.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1854.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那么尤其是依据宪法第83条以及宪法增修条文第6条第1项第3款的规定军工教人员的疾奉法治事项本来是属于考试院的职权范围但是现在的制度却完全是由行政院主导考试院几乎没有实职参与的空间不仅有侵夺考试权的疑虑而且也违反权利分立原则以及法律保留原则 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1854.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1873.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那么除此之外现在的待遇调整制度呢也欠缺客观标准以及透明程序军公教待遇是否调整以及何时调整调整的幅度有多少往往就是取决于行政院的政策决定缺乏稳定而且可预测的机制 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1874.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1893.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
近年来物价持续的上涨军工教人员实质薪资受到严重的侵蚀但是待遇调整却未必能够及时反映通货膨胀的速度以及物价的变动实质上已经严重的影响军工教人员的生活保障而且也冲击国家揽财流财的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1894.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1909.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
因此本草案有四項重要的改革第一個就是建立待遇調整法之化的機制明定當消費者物價指數累積成長率達到3%的時候就應該要啟動待遇調整的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1910.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1933.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
即使沒有達到標準也應該要至少每四年檢討一次這個待遇的水準使得待遇的調整可以有明確的法律依據第二就是要建立最低的保障機制規定待遇調整的比率是不得低於消費者的物價指數累積的成長率的二分之一以避免軍公教人員實質的所得因為通貨膨脹而大幅的縮水 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1936.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1956.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
第三就是要建立公開透明而且具有代表性的審議制度我們要設置軍公教人員待遇調整審議委員會那麼並且納入中央機關地方政府信義軍人公務人員教師代表以及學者專家來共同參與同時呢也要求會議記錄必須要公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1958.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1970.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
第四就是行政院必須要尊重審議委員會所做的審議結果除了有發生這個國家財政重大困難的情況之外是不得變更審議委員會的決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1973.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1989.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我們知道軍公教人員是國家治理的重要基石他的待遇制度不應該受到政治因素左右更不應該長期缺乏法律的規範因此本草案的目的呢就是在建立公開公平透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1989.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2008.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
可預測而且符合憲法要求的待遇調整機制以保障軍公教人員的權利同時也維護國家文官體系以及公共服務的品質那麼當然最後我也請各位委員可以支持本案那麼儘速完成相關的立法以上 謝謝好 謝謝翁委員的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2026.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2033.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那接下來我們就進行機關代表報告每位發言時間三分鐘我們首先先請張秋元副人事長來進行說明各位委員大家早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2048.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2075.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
今天大院的司法制委員會召開本會議的第十八次會議並按審查台灣民眾黨黨團拟據的軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案跟恩委員等16人拟據的軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案等兩案邀請本總處來列席非常感謝以下僅就 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2077.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2104.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
兩個重要的部分跟委員會做說明第一個部分是現行軍公教人員待遇調整的運作機制那在軍人待遇條例的第四條跟第五條公務員奉集法的第十八條以及教師待遇條例的第十五條都已經明定軍公教人員的奉集數額是由行政院定之那 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2105.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2133.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
人事總處是軍公教人員待遇調整的幕僚作業機關所以我們每年都會收整相關的財經指標的數據經濟成長率平均每人的國民所得消費者物價指數的變動的情形以及民間企業的薪資水準以及政府的財政狀況那這些相關指標的數據我們進行綜合的評估然後配合中央政府總預算編列的時程來 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2135.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2144.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
延期相關的方案來提軍公教員工待遇審議委員會來審議然後提出建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2146.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2171.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
在待遇審議委員會開會之前會由教育部跟人事行政總署共同邀請相關的公教團體辦理座談會來進行意見的交流團體所提的相關意見會由教育部跟人事總署在待遇審議委員會裡面來表達然後相關的意見會送請行政院做政策的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2172.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2179.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
依照中央政府總預算的審議程序送到立法院來審查通過經過總統公布以後生效 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2181.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2207.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那第二個部分跟大家報告就是行政院現在正在辦理軍公教人員條帶機制的法制化的作業那這部分人事總署已經有擬具軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案那規劃把這個年度通案待遇調整的條件考量因素調整的程序諮詢會的組成委員聘聘的程序以及相關的准用人員等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2209.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2227.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
都納在這個條例草案裡面那針對這一次大院病院審查的委員所關切的譬如說調整的項目、調整的條件、公教團體代表納入等等這些人事總署的草案也都有納入規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2228.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2240.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那這個部分已經我們已經完成相關的法制作業送到行政院那現在在等待行政院排入院會討論通過以後就會依程序送到大院來審議以上報告謝謝各位好 謝謝副任市長的報告那麼其餘機關的說明其餘機關有提供報告不曉得有沒有口頭要補充的 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2254.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2262.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
沒有的話我們就機關代表報告完畢相關書面內容就請各位參閱並列入公報記錄那麼我們現在就先開始進行詢答本會委員詢答的時間為8分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答的時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記我們首先先請登記第一位的陳昭芝委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2287.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2290.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩夫人市長好 請夫人市長好 夫人市長早夫人市長 幾天前民進黨辦40週年紀念青年的活動座談秘書長徐國勇面對下面的年輕人他竟然說 台灣現在的股市飆破4萬點是全世界第五大的股市 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2312.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2325.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
年輕人埋怨都是別人在賺,但是股稅早就變成政府的稅收他用社福去造福每個人,你難道沒有受益嗎?這個說法,副董事長您同意嗎?報告委員,我想每一個人都有每一個人的觀點,那我尊重個別的觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2336.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2341.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我想你的答案 但是身為一個執政黨的秘書長這是好一句啊 你難道沒有授意嗎這句話其實非常的傲慢跟冷血啦創黨40年後這真是你們要面對的年輕世代的回應嘛那我先來請問富仁市長你們在冷氣房看這個很漂亮的經濟成長數字今年就說一定超過8%第一季還13點多 這個資料我想你都比我熟 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2362.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2370.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
可是基層的勞工還有基層的公務員在真實的世界感受如何呢吳岳迪總質詢的時候我還親自問這個卓院長我說排除AI跟半導體的貢獻那到底經濟成長率剩多少他馬上二話不說就說只有2%兩個Percent但我相信比這個還少了 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2380.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2384.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
事實上基層人民只感受到物價上漲然後生活難度更高所以我當時還請卓院長說你不要只看經濟數字你要去問問基層人員像我自己就是問了公務車司機 問了醫事人員我問他說你可不可以這樣做 學我這樣他說好 他還答應我了我常常覺得政府對軍公教的態度真的是陰晴不定 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2406.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2411.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
為什麼這樣說呢 去年八月金公教他們爭取權益卓院長講了一句話說再加薪恐怕引起社會的觀感不佳他就直接潑了冷水結果今年風向變了 卓院長被問同樣的問題 他就說今年經濟體質勝於往年 準備要加薪所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2427.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2447.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
可以說軍公教的待遇調整理論上是本來應該要有制度嘛要有這個數字做基礎來做一個評估嘛但左院長說法好像就變成一個蠻隨性的一個政治的語言想加就加,不想加就說對社會觀感當擋箭牌所以政府究竟是把軍公教的權益當作 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2449.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2464.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
恩惠嗎?德政嗎?還是說在特定時刻特定時刻才要釋放出來當作政治籌碼呢?這樣子所以我想我今天講的話我們來檢視一下數字這些數字可能富人市長你也都非常熟悉根據這個詮訊部的統計公務員報考人數從2019年的25.6萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2470.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2474.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
大幅降低到2020年16.6整整少了10萬人中央和地方的缺額率都雙雙攀高大概創下超過13這是近年來最慘烈的紀錄我們再看看全國公務員他的離職各種原因的離職人數從2020年11000多攀升到這個2024年16000多他增加40% |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2494.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2511.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
增加40個離職率那中央各機關的離職人數也是一樣增加我數字就不再念了增加38點就是增加將近4成的離職率那我們如果單看辭職辭職感覺上是一個主動的一個做法那從2020年到現在2020年的時候不到2000人那現在是3094人也是增加57.14%創新 近年新高我剛剛給你的數字都是你知道的 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2523.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2530.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
都是政府的數字所以政府大肆宣傳今年第一季經濟成長率13點13.69到13.7還說是創1987年以來單季的這個增幅非常得意婦人市長您覺得有多少人是直接直接享受到這個經濟成長的紅綠我強調的是直接因為半導體的產業雖然佔全台灣的GDP大概超過20%那相關從業人員你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2553.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2570.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
直接受到這個所謂的經濟成長率的這個紅利的人數你知道嗎你有概念嗎 夫人市長跟委員報告這是大概多少就如同剛剛委員講的就是這個受益的部分當然就是因為我們的產業其實各個產業經營的這個優勢狀況不一樣台灣當然就是AI產業鏈或是科技業 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2577.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2590.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
直接受益的只有二三十萬人我都問過科技新櫃了不到全體勞工的百分之三即便納入整體我們再擴大一點納入資訊科技製造產業就業人口也頂多是一百萬就是說多數服務業跟傳統製造業根本難以分紅到所謂的AI熱潮帶來的紅利那更不要說基層的公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2607.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2628.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
所以這公文根本享受不到所以我的想法是說我的建議說政府不要再大內宣你這種大內宣說國家賺很多錢啊我們是亞洲的第二有錢國家全世界排名最前面但是基層人民他只有反感因為他沒有感覺啊他不但沒有感覺他的這個他覺得物價在上漲啊他的這個生活困難度在增加啊所以婦人市長你認為要怎麼流財勞動條件可以更好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2635.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2649.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
你主張這種大內宣繼續下去嗎我跟委員報告一下就剛剛那個有關於院長的發言那個部分因為他兩個時間點不同一個是去年那去年當然是這個所謂關稅協議那個不確定性的時候那今年當然就是我們的經濟發展是比較確定的穩定的狀態這個大概先做一個說明然後剛剛委員提的就是怎麼流採這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2662.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2681.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
剛剛其實委員後來的數字其實就蠻清楚的這是全序部公告的數字就是因為有部分是退休所以事實上真正辭職的人大概在過去大概2000人現在大概增加到3000人左右我有資料我有數字你看下面這張投影片這個數字是正確的我還有新的數字整個在 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2686.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2712.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
整個辭職的部分大概我們公園大概有28萬人左右所以大概整個辭職的比例五年平均下來差不多0.87差不多0.87那這個部分當然這個...副市長你要看政府啊每年都在惡化副市長...這個我們要注意這個的確委員的提醒的確是我們要注意我們一直在關注這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2713.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2730.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那我們現在剛剛委員有詢問到的要留採的部分其實我們是多管齊下在做處理你這幾天很清楚啦不再是鐵飯碗了吧多管齊下一個是待遇的部分待遇的部分當然現在在報考人數待遇我們非常在乎但是我要告訴你整個行政體系的進度我麻煩林市長看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2734.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2757.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
2016年這張表就說會往法規劃方向走2014年是誰在執政啊這是六月的哦2014年承諾年底要完成但跳票馬已經過去了2015年又說最後一里路天啊這個最後一里路可是真遠啊草案送到行政院時辰大海不見蹤影啊所以還押又押了一兩年啊我昨天查詢那個行政院處理中的法律案軍公教人員待遇這個調整條例草案還掛在上面第157條怎麼樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2763.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2769.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
10年了 我們還能再拖下一個10年嗎軍公教人都跑光光了那事實上人總人總在113.06.9發函給各機關一個草案版本請大家表達意見嘛 這是好的那當時提出的版本我要談的是這一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2779.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2804.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
諮詢委員是21席代表當中基層代表4席學者是4個人但我認為應該納入更多的基層的部分翁曉林委員的版本現在目前是有9位縣市公教委員代表然後5位學者專家等等這個部分我們要跟進所以民眾黨因為是我們太早提案了所以我們要做個修正今天我沒有做報告的原因是這樣那人種先前有預告就是說累積消費者物價指數CPI達到30%的時候要進行調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2807.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2830.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那現在你的態度還一樣嗎?你只要告訴我你們的態度是不是還一樣?我們對於法治化這一件而且參考這個CPI你的態度還一樣嗎?是不是有參考這個人總的立場我們現在還是跟過去是一樣的應該是這個是重要參考指標那我請教婦人市長今年3月的時候人總說6月底要大幅調整公務員專業加急表 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2832.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2850.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
那民眾黨團團也接到這個所謂的公共服務條性連線的陳情他們想要確認一件事,就是說副人事長這次調整大概只有專業家級嗎?團體組張連本縫也要加入計算所以我今天藉這個機會向副人事長確認是否專業家級要連同本縫一起調整這差很大喔我可以問你這句話,你確認了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2858.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2885.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
還是你今天沒辦法回答我跟委員報告我們每一年的這個年度待遇調整我們其實都是通案去考量的那剛剛委員提到的這個我們的這個因為升月人總之六月要調嘛我們在這個禮拜一六月八號的時候其實我們跟那你有本封放在裡面嗎我們都是會整個一起所以你今天還沒有答案給我們就是都會一起考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2887.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2892.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我們做待遇調整的時候是全部都一起去考量然後基層同仁的心聲其實我們這個禮拜一我們跟教育部也跟他們面對面的討論溝通今年出席非常踴躍 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2902.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2915.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
因為民進黨政府說過去10年公務員的調薪已經14%但是有跟得上物價嗎這10年來CPI其實累積已經到16點多超過這個調薪的標準幅度那加上行政院監控的17項重要民生物資物價那個漲幅高達21.9%就22% |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2924.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2926.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
所以這個是驚人的漲幅 公共交通人員現在面臨雙重的壓力或剝削購買力 還有物價 雙重的剝削所以現在基層公務員 委任第一職等的起薪大概你知道嗎 3萬4 低到不可思議 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2939.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2945.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
所以這個公共服務這個調整條性連線他就主張說2026、2027年的調整幅度是應該大於我讓你做參考啦6.76他們做一個計算最低底線啦大概相當於6千塊左右那教師團體是主張10%啦所以希望能夠藉此補足長期落後的這個失職的那個購買力跟物價上漲啦所以基本上這個方向這個方向您同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2967.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2995.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我剛跟委員報告就是我們其實就是蒐集的是剛我報告那幾個這個財經指標跟我們的財政狀況那我們在通關條帶的時候其實這個各項目都會去一併去考量然後剛委員講的所謂那個基層通人的意見或者是這個我們這個委員第一指導的這些我們都一併會一併會納入考量這個基層的表達最後一題照顧基層這件事情我們一直放在心上 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2996.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2999.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
富人市長今天你知道中時的頭版頭是什麼嗎對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3001.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3005.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
停侃公教年金只補今年差額啦這個這麼大的標題我想請問全序部擅自曲解全序部擅自曲解公教人員退府條例第37條第38條的條文內容竟然只同意退還修法公佈後114年12月28號以後到115年7月易扣的退休金差額而拒絕退還113、114兩年共計24個月易扣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3029.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3033.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
退休金差額啦所以現在我要先請教全序部那個市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3034.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3062.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
你們怎麼這樣扭曲法律啊我都不知道過去民進黨不附屬不公佈不執行是完全不做現在還可以部分還可以扭曲欸你只做這個部分這樣可以嗎你扭曲了這個我們的三讀通過的法條欸報告委員 部裡面也是過也是經過審慎研議啦最主要是依照中央法規標準法第13條還有退伏法第95條的規定那立法院三讀通過的呢你在講你們各位我們立法院三讀通過的條例呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3064.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3080.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我們就是第二個就是確認退伏法第95條確認114年12月28號修正公佈的退伏法第37條跟38條的內容並沒有追溯的規定所以部裡面只能依法行政就自法律公佈日施行去執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3081.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3105.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
立法行政,我行政法是立法院通過的法好,你這樣扭曲,我想彭市長我當然知道你今天你也不能夠怎麼樣就是批評這樣子扭曲法律但是我想我希望您心裡了解,您心裡認同,我知道我今天為什麼這樣子問你啦,全區部確實這個扭曲法律啦那請問,不好意思我再請問一下婦人市長,你支持全區部這種扭曲法律的處理方式嗎?您支持嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3108.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3127.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
跟委員報告 因為這是考試院對於他主管法律的見解見解 見解要壓過理法院的三次通過的條件因為我們各院有各院的職權我這邊也不好對考試院 因為他是一個獨立機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3131.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3146.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我知道這個全局大概也會尊重我今天盡量用數字我都用數字跟我們通過的法條來告訴你這個東西這個案子都不能再放了要法治化等等這法治化也是民進黨政府提出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3147.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3162.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
已經放了十年法制化的部分我們會努力應該很快會送過來不復族不執行已經很嚴重了現在還有部分扭曲都發明了就是請任市長把我今天談的放在心裡面好 謝謝委員謝謝兩位所長 謝謝主席好 謝謝陳昭志委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3167.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3183.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
因為現在委員人數已經滿三位我們就先確定議事錄請問上次會議的議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏沒有我們就議事錄確定接下來我們就請吳宗憲委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3196.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3223.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
好 謝謝主席 我們麻煩副任市長好 請副任市長我先破題講一下 因為我剛剛有聽到那個陳昭智委員的質詢那我當然也很高興能夠聽到我們全區部有講依法行政四個字但是我剛剛說為什麼說是破題我必須在這邊跟全國人民報告一件事情就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3224.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3248.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
依法行政就是行政機關的義務沒有錯但是我們現在遇到的是一個非常離譜的行政院因為可以所謂的不附屬 事先中不執行這個都是全世界民主國家沒有的例子也是中華民國過往到現在包括兩任民進黨執政時期的總統都不敢做的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3248.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3276.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
在陳水扁執政時代 那時候也曾經歷過潮小野大但是只要立法院三讀通過了 即使陳水扁總統再怎麼不喜歡他也是必須吞下去 必須執行因為民主國家權利分立原則這個就是行政院必須要尊重民意機關立法院所立出來的法律但是很悲哀的 非常悲哀的 非常可笑的 非常丟臉的我們現在完全在走反世界民主的潮流 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3277.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3289.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
一個立法院民主制度定出來的法律行政機關行政院可以愛做就做不做就不做所以我們三讀通過後的東西沒有任何用處當它不附屬的時候底下的 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3291.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3315.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
幹部 公務員 就講一句 我依法行政因為他 因為那個法 他從頭到尾 行政院長都不讓他施行 不讓他生效這是我們民主國家的悲哀說真的 走到今天為止 還配講自己叫做民主國家嗎有沒有世界上 有沒有任何一個民主國家立法院三讀通過後的法律 行政機關 愛做就做 不做就不做你還好意思說自己是民主國家 還好意思說自己叫做民主進步 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3317.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3343.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
所以才會導致出今天這麼多的問題所以我今天破題我先再講一次這句話整天說我們不審總預算事實上是一本違法的預算書來不依法編列預算的預算書來叫大家怎麼審然後現在在外面整天造謠說不審總預算這就是我們現在的政府我先跟副人長報告我自己在公務體系25年 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3347.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3375.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我真的相信一句話就公務員強國家才會強各位在場都是公務員一定會認同這一句話所以世界上很多國家公務員他們都是採精英主義盡量找一流人才到公務體系來但現在這十年政府的運作下去一個蘿蔔一個坑有人來就好品質怎麼樣一點都不在乎然後來了以後東扣西扣國家說這幾年年年稅金超收去前一年五千多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3376.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3389.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
前面四年加起來超徵一兆八千億的稅金但是呢 公務員他有給你調整過嗎他有給你好好的調整嗎有讓你跟上物價嗎你連物價都跟不上更不要講你的生活有改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3390.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3410.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
這就是我現在看到的一個問題所以我們的公務員國家這些骨幹其他國家當作寶的這些重要的骨幹在我們這裡完全被通貨膨脹還有過勞跟集體這些壓力給搞垮了我今天談的不是只是調薪而是我們要怎麼樣繼續維持我們國家的這個公務體系的運作就像以前人家講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3411.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3437.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
這國家需要一流的人才來制定一流的政策當我們沒有辦法吸引到一流人才來制定一流政策的時候國家只會漸漸的走向衰敗任何一個私人企業都希望搶最好對一流的人才到企業裡面讓企業更壯大但是我們現在卻做的是讓每年公務員的報考人數一年比一年少然後他只講一句少子化問題但是這不是少子化的問題這跟少子化沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3440.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3452.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
這個少子化只是佔其中一小部分但是真正影響的是你整個給他的體制你今天造成的是人根本不想來考 連考都考不了所以你今天齁 我看到你們給我們的書面報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3453.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3483.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
其實我跟你說 我希望待遇法治化並不是說替軍工叫討紅包而是說這個東西關係到國家大事我們希望讓它法治化不要只是一個要點不要只是一個辦法要走向法治化給予這些文官法治跟尊重這是我們這次提出修法的一個最主要核心你們的報告給我們啊你說薪資的調整人總會收集CPI收集經濟成長率 民間薪資還有政府的那個財政指標等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3484.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3507.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
但是呢 我們從數據來看 2021到2024 CPI 它就漲了9%但是這四年裡面 公務員條金條8%等於公務員不但沒有改善生活 而且他實質購買力他整個是被通膨吃掉 他根本就沒有過得比較好他反而是比以前更不好那這個狀況呢 公務員實質薪資等於是嚴重的倒退 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3508.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3513.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那好 那我請教一下 2021年CPI是漲1.97 2023 2.49那這兩年為什麼沒有調性 當年的決策到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3523.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3541.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
跟委員報告 因為當年我還沒有回到這個位置上沒有啦 那個不能講這個我覺得官員就是一棒接一棒啦對對 但是就是就目前來講剛剛委員講的部分其實政府在做的也是跟委員講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3542.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3566.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
沒關係那個副院長你不知道我直接在這邊跟你說明好了你們對外的說法2021是說疫情的關係沒有辦法調2023是說前一年剛剛調過所以不用調那我就說你們剛剛說我剛剛點出來你們給我們的報告的指標講了CPI成長基金成長率民間薪資政府的那個財政指數但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3567.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3595.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
看起來也沒有啊因為你們給我們說不能調薪的理由也不是前面那幾個嘛好像變成是行政院院長說了算這個是一個很大問題所以因為你不知道所以我剛剛直接講給你聽所以呢立法院預算中心在110年的報告直接就明確的講出來你們調整的理由根本就是缺乏明確的衡量指標那不能夠你們都沒有以一個具體計算待遇的調整調減或他的幅度 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3595.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3613.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
也就是說啦 歸論到一句話就是黑箱啦那我必須講勞工 你們對於勞工就完全不是這樣勞工就非常的透明那這個是我覺得有問題的一個點那所以呢 最近這一套操作下去 這些年我們導致了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3614.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3634.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
第一個人招不進來剛剛陳浩之委員也有問到啊高普考這幾年報考人數大量減少短短四年少了三分之一耶地方特考更創十年新低然後有一些專業技術職你根本找不到人一些土木工程等等的這些有證照的人他們在外面賺錢就好他根本不想來報效國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3636.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3658.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
所以你們的制度就出了大問題嘛國家招不到人第一個招不進來第二個留不住人113年全國公務員離職退休超過1.6萬主動離職的就3000多人5年內暴增40%我也跟你報告就像我們是司法官出身司法官的薪水起薪就破10萬我菜鳥20幾歲的時候我們領就破10萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3662.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3678.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
這樣子的薪資之下這幾年瘋狂的走人我一堆同學都走光了連這麼高薪的位置都留不住人那就是制度出問題但是你們都沒有在重視我看到的是這樣因為第一線的公務員除了薪資不好之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3679.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3708.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
很多時候比如極端氣候戶外救災然後民眾不滿他第一線要挨罵然後呢在執行公務的時候又遇到一大堆法律的風險土地罪的風險還有來自於政治的壓力所以專業的人就漸漸喪失了他的熱情那很多人走掉人才走光之後我再問一下這個國家怎麼辦然後他就算滿抱熱情進來願意面對這些壓力但是國家又用實質薪資倒退來對待他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3708.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3737.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
然後甚至最近又還叫公務員簽一堆切結書莫名其妙政治意識形態的切結書叫人家簽一大堆請問國家有把這些文官的尊嚴當作一回事來看待這是我對你們我覺得很大的一個問題啦好 那你們是不是所以說你們 我看你們報告有提到說你們有提一個軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案對不對所以也就是你們也認為這個東西應該走向一個法律案來走嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3739.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3761.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
行政院這邊其實也是在往法治化方向來走我想法治化以後整個待遇調整的機制會更明確但是這個法案送到行政院之後拜託不要說只是聽組織滿意才能動啦因為有太多部會跟我說法案進了行政院就石沉大海就再也沒有看到了跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3764.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3766.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
目前行政院排了嗎目前行政院排了嗎所以還沒有排嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3779.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3801.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
拜託去了解一下遇到什麼樣具體的困難因為你們現在面對的是全國這幾十萬的公務員你們現在看的是這個福利他們的人生他們的規劃他們的福利不要這個東西好像都不當一回事那我們講勞工勞工你那時候修法我記得前幾年立法院通過的那個最低工資法 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3802.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3817.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
第一條寫得很清楚為確保勞工合理最低薪資提高勞工還有他生活家庭生活水準促進勞資和諧你換一個角度你把它放到公務員來看是不是也是應該要確保公務員合理的最低工資 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3818.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3838.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
提高公務員跟他家庭的生活水準促進公務員跟國家政府之間的和諧是不是應該用這個角度去處理那當初你們對勞工這樣做你是希望排除掉政治喊價還有選舉操作用客觀的CPI指數來說話來保障公務員這個我予以肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3838.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3853.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
但是這個邏輯不也就套用在公務員身上嗎你要知道公務員還有貪污罪條例還有一堆特別法來修理他結果你對公務員的保障遠低於對於勞工的保障你對他的要求卻遠高於對於勞工的要求那這樣當然招不到人嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3854.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3881.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
我想這是一個很簡單的道理啦而且我在那邊我看了翁曉琳委員的提案裡面有提到軍公教的調薪不是只有公部門的事它還有具備火車頭的效應所以很多時候軍公教調薪民間企業的老闆才會甚至心不甘情不願就只好跟著調這樣也是帶動民間企業跟著進行調薪這個過往的歷史都是這樣所以我真的還是拜託你們要注意這個點 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3882.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3899.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那也不可以說像現在全國軍公教員工待遇知己是用要點來處理而不是用法制那我想四字五七五還有六五八七都有提到憲法保障人民服工職的權利也包含了奉集請求權 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3899.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3909.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
也就是說國家對於公務員的這個鳳擊其實公務是有這個憲法義務的你必須要保障好這個是你們的憲政義務這樣你認為我講的對不對這是你們的憲政義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3914.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3930.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
跟委員報告啦這個國家照顧公園本來就是政府的職責然後現在其實政府也一直在做就多管齊下在做當然剛剛所提到那些現象稍之後當然是一個最直接的問題的供給端每年這個大學必須能減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3932.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3957.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
企業的這個人力需求和倡望那當然這個對國家來講不見得不好因為這個企業倡望當然是好的但是當然公園靜態這部分就面臨比較大的挑戰那現在我們也透過幾個方式在做處理一個是待遇待遇的調整譬如說剛剛委員提到了現在其實在錄取端就是工程類科是有不足的現象其他行政類科其實目前還可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3957.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3964.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
遭到合格的人才那我們就是從工程類科的部分的待遇先去加強接下來我們就要對那個護理師的部分就降低考試難度啦他不是用增加誘因來讓護理師 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3973.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3999.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
願意來考而是降低考試的難度讓他們呢能夠來醫院面對我們這些病患的時候再拿我當練習題然後來練習啊那就不是就一樣嗎一樣的邏輯啊政府原來邏輯就是一個蘿蔔一個坑沒有人來考我就降低考試的難度對不對然後人才進來水準夠不夠我一點都不在乎當這些護士進來的時候他沒有達到原本要求的水準他直接拿我來當臨床好了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4000.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4004.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
他們現在就這樣嘛我現在看到的狀況就是這樣啊護理師自己都出來抗議了啊好 沒關係喔我主動 因為次長 次長你有你的政治上的壓力我能夠理解 但是我說出來的是現在食物上面的問題招不到人 留不住人 這個是事實嘛那你講得再漂亮 再好就沒有用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4026.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4044.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
幾十萬人的重大權益然後我真的不覺得政府有特別注意整天告訴我們我們的經濟多棒每年超收幾千億稅金就公務員你一直在流失我看到的是這個樣子然後我再問一個問題就是我剛剛講到你這個調薪的資料可不可以給我像我剛剛講到的剛剛2021還有2023這兩年你們調薪的資料到底內部文件是什麼可不可以到時候給我一份 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4052.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4052.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
中文字幕提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4053.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4082.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我希望資料能夠公開啦因為勞工的調薪的會議資料可以公開為什麼公務員調薪的會議資料沒有辦法公開為什麼要走黑箱這是我想要請教的你們草案雖然有開始有這個意願納入基層公務員讓他們能夠進去開會之前是都沒有之前你們只有用高官來決定基層公務員的薪資現在你們的草案有好那這部分我不再跟你討論但是我要請問一下過往的資料可不可以公開讓我們知道評斷的標準是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4083.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4111.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
以及未來草案你們也都沒有公開這一塊那可不可以把這個部分再修正把它公開討論的資料可不可以像勞工一樣把它公開跟委員報告過往是這個會議技術沒有公開但是在宣布條帶的時候會把這個相關的理由都對外說明那未來的部分未來的部分我們接下來要討論的案子就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4112.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4135.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我們會在這個除了應該秘密的部分不公開之外其他我會跟你講不要跟我講因秘密部分新知的部分你要跟我講因秘密各自都不要來騙我好不好我公務員幹了二十幾年我也是學法律出身翁小玲委員的草案版本有特別提到必須公開所以我在這邊跟你們說明一下我希望第一個你們要定期檢討第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4137.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4160.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
要讓基層代表參與 第三個 一定資料要公開第四個 行政院 它否決 任何否決 譬如說你不同意加薪等等你們必須要說明理由 好不好這四個點 麻煩你們之後要在家裡思考啦那你之後想要立法院來 我們也會就這幾個點去打去主要去做那個建議 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4162.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4178.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
謝謝委員 委員的意見我們會給請教參考好 因為我跟你講我不希望進入法治化之後還是繼續的黑箱啦因為我跟你講我還是要強調最後不好 最後一分鐘公務員強 國家才會強現在的政府是讓一個蘿蔔一個坑就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4179.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4200.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
程度不行我就降低考試難度有人來就好現在這是政府的邏輯他只要達到他的政治攻擊目的達到他的政治利益就好他不在乎國家能不能強盛所以現在我們遇到的招不進來 留不住人 坐不下去我們要做這幾件事情我們必須要做到的幾個點就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4201.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4230.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
我之前也跟你們說過了 我也跟第一個考選 第二個待遇 第三個職安 第四個考機就像我跟考選部那時候有說要讓公職招募從等人來考變成主動徵才你要讓他在學校的時候 運用各種方式譬如說去現場看 去看我們的東西做得多好來引誘這些學生願意畢業的時候從事公職我跟你講 如果你沒有這樣做 真的留不住人我跟你講 人進的來 必須靠的是考選的改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4231.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4249.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
留得住必須靠的是待遇還有職安的改革做得下去靠的是要有一個公平的考機制度所以我才會說剛剛我念的這四個東西麻煩你們一定要做到不然真的公務員體系越來越弱外面企業越來越強公務員越來越弱還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4253.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4273.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
麻煩您一件事情不要所有我們文官的權益什麼都讓政務官壓的死死的很多時候文官才是一個國家真正的主幹再強調一次公務員強國家才會強麻煩麻煩您好不好麻煩您我今天跟你說的麻煩您可以修正的部分繼續修正好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4275.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4296.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
好 謝謝委員好 謝謝簡單回覆委員 委員剛才提那個其實政府都在做包括那個招募的部分我們行政院這邊其實也有推薦我們優秀的公務員一起跟考卷部那邊進入校園去做招募的這個工作那另外我們其實在委員講的那四項之外我們現在也在做工作的降載有些數位的 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4297.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4318.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
工具包括AI的工具現在AI基本法大院已經通過了我們會在這個框架底下有一些工作降載的方式我們也會繼續努力不過我想講啦如果有改善這十年不會越來越慘一年比一年慘所以講的天花亂墜都沒有意義我們希望越來越好 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4318.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4341.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
你要搞少子化辦公室要預防少子化結果對 預防到最後我們變全世界出生率最低然後跟我講你們做了多漂亮那個都騙人那個下午麻煩你們派人來跟我回報一個因為我們之前預算審查的時候有請你們去跟廉政署那個風險辨識方案請你們主責人來我辦公室說明一下部分我們有在處理我們跟廉政署在處理我就是要知道進度好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4347.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4362.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
那接下來我們請林沛翔委員發言好謝謝主席有請我們人事總署好請夫人市長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4368.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4381.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
今天本席要談的是我們軍公教人員待遇調整法制化這個議題首先以我個人的身分我想先講一句話軍公教待遇法制化不是在幫軍公教 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4382.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4408.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
來去爭取特權而是幫國家在守住所謂的治理的品質我想剛剛不管是陳昭之委員還是吳宗憲委員都是跟我一樣的想法因為呢軍公教從來就不是一般的職業公務員負責執行國家政策教師負責培育下一代而軍警消海巡移民署空行總隊等第一線同仁則是守護國家安全跟人民生命財產 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4409.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4437.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那如果連這些支撐國家正常運行的人都無法獲得穩定合理可預期的待遇保障那我們憑什麼期待國家的治理品質能夠不斷提升所以我記得沒有錯的話應該是2024年的時候人總就已經公開表示將推動軍公教待遇調整制度法制化並預計在2024年底將草案交送行政院審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4438.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4448.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那如今已經快過兩年了我想要確認的是人事總署的研議工作是不是已經完成了草案是不是已經送進行政院裡面的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4449.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4473.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
跟委員報告我們提前去送到行政院裡面好那如果是答案是肯定的那恐怕問題不是在任總嘛是在行政院還沒有實施核定還沒有提出院版的草案對吧這個部分我們其實也有剛剛也有報告啦就是我們在立法院這邊草野的委員其實都很關心這件事情我們想院版的草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4473.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4501.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
對 所以我們也就是委員也要我們跟行政院做報告我們也把這些大家關切的情形也都跟行政院報告那行政院也一直很關注這件事情他們也一直在討論我想我們會盡快把這個法案送到立法院來不好意思 這就讓人很好奇了嘛那行政院一方面說很重視軍公教的權益那另外一方面也說支持待遇能夠制度法制化 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4502.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4528.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
但從你們送進去之後現在兩年都快過了兩年都快過了孩子都可以生兩個了院版的草案始終不見蹤影那到底是哪個環節在卡呢是行政院院會沒有排案還是院內對條文內容還有疑慮還是請你們請行政院明確告訴全國幾十萬可能是有沒有上百萬我不知道幾十萬的軍公教童人到底要等多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4528.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4545.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
還是說回到你們送出去的草案有問題或者是根本都就是沒有被列為所謂的優先事項那如果認為法治化很重要為什麼過兩年還送不出來啊那為什麼如果不重要那當初為什麼要讓你們承諾要送出來法治化的草案呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4549.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4565.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我覺得這些事情其實大家都可以直接把這個天窗打開來看嘛 對不對如果說行政院覺得這真的很重要甚至除了這些政務官之外其他都是公務官 都是公務員那你們自己的權益也要爭取啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4567.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4592.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
所以說我在這邊正式要求行政院啦那不要一天到晚讓公務人讓軍公教童人一直整下去盡速完成審查提出最明確的時程趕快送到立法院來不是很好嗎不要每次都說還在研議也不要說每次都還在評估一年過去了兩年也快過去了院班草案還躺在行政院裡面行政院到底要等什麼是不是等物價再漲一輪 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4593.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4619.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
還是等更多年輕人離開這公務體系還是等大家忘了當初他們有承諾說這個院版的草案要進來如果行政院真的支持法治的話就提出具體時程嘛我們每次都我們因為這個上次我站在這邊的時候特留分的特留分的事情我們也在等院辦什麼都在等院辦那我們也院辦每次行政院每次跟我們講每個法案都很重要每個草案都很重要但是事實上我們感覺到的好像不是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4620.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4632.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
如果說不支持其實他們如果真的不支持那就慘白跟軍公教同仁講嘛不要讓大家一直等一直等痴痴的等到一個永遠排不到宴會的草案嘛對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4635.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4655.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
這個案子我們的確有跟院裡面一直在討論我想我們會盡快把這個案子送過來我想在這邊再請教我們現在人總現行的軍公教條新制度有沒有明確的法律規範呢現行的那有沒有法定的調整指標呢有沒有啟動所謂的研討機制呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4659.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4668.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
根本包括就是剛剛我在一開始的這個口頭的說明就是在不管是這個我只想問我只想問我只想問有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4677.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4691.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
有制度的話能不能列表出來給我們所有委員知道呢這個部分我們會後可以送給委員那我想請問一下這樣的制度是否這制度保障是什麼公式算出來的是有一定程度的公式嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4692.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4717.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
還是只是比較像所謂的行政裁量跟委員報告我們其實在這個法案的研議過程當中也透過外交部也蒐集了我不是說現在未來的制度我說現行制度裡面現行制度也是一樣就是其實是符合現在的這個一般國家的這個狀態比較先進國家其實就是他可能會定一個指標那些指標如果到的時候那可能會啟動這個調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4719.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4746.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那體重調整以後大概就是公務員代表的部分可以表達他的意見、建議等等然後這個最後他的這個決定還是會主政的要去負責目前多數的國家大概是這樣的機制然後我們現在現行的機制大概跟這個是接近我們希望讓他更明確化 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4746.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4763.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
老師講我們最近常聽到行政院一直不停的在強調說我們過去十年來軍公教已經漲新了14%甚至不斷宣稱說自己很照顧軍公教但我想請問任總這14%的幅度真的足夠反映這十年來的生活成本變化嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4764.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4788.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
因為我這邊看到的官方統計的資料過去十年台灣消費者CPI物價指數累積漲幅已經接近兩成也就是說2016年你花一萬塊你在2026年你至少要拿到一萬一千九百元才買得到當年同樣的東西換句話說如果一個人的收入成長幅度跟不上18%的通膨實際購買力其實是在下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4792.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4814.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
更何況這只是官方的統計數據我想我拿到的東西可能還不及我們政府裡面拿到的資料更仔細對許多民眾來說真正有感的不是平均物價而是每天都要面對的房貸 車貸 外食 交通跟育兒支出那這十年來房價漲了 租金漲了 物價漲了 外食費也漲了 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4816.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4835.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
而且許多學者跟民間團體都指出如果從一般家庭最常接觸的住、食、行來看民眾主觀的感受跟生活成本增加恐怕不是18%是20%、30%甚至更高那這邊的民眾包括年輕的公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4837.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4854.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
年輕的公務員 基層教師跟第一線的警消同仁來講每個月薪水進帳之後 最大的感受往往不是薪資增加了多少而是錢越來越薄 日子越來越緊那同一時間呢 如果說剛剛我看到中線有把勞工拿出來講嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4855.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4878.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
那基本工資已經連續十年調升從兩萬塊整提升到兩萬九千五百元累積調幅超過47%但是薰公教調薪十年只有14%副座你認為這樣的差距政府真的認為足以反應現實生活壓力嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4881.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4887.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
整體的方向還是會比較主動CPI的成長的這個部分那未來我們法治化也是朝這個方向就是有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4905.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4923.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我們的草案大概就是CPI到一定的程度我們就會提供檢討你剛剛有講說要看先進國家那國際之間公務人員公務體系人才流失那其實不是只有台灣所有先進國家都會遇到的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4924.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4942.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
但是先進國家遇到這個類國安問題的時候他們做了些什麼日本是直接檢討薪資制度新加坡是採取用更有競爭力的待遇來吸引人才歐美許多國家則是改善工作條件降低行政負擔提升公務人員的社會尊榮感 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4942.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4964.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
因為這些國家的治理人都知道公務人員是治理國家最重要的基礎沒有優秀的人才再好的政策都推不動沒有穩定的人力來源再完善的制度也只是紙上彈兵但是台灣呢當報考公職人員越來越少缺額越來越多離職率持續上升的時候我們聽到行政院院長講什麼把考試變簡單一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4966.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4978.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
老實說這種講話出於行政院院長的口中講出這句話的時候本席非常擔心這樣的思維因為年輕人不願意投入公職從來不是因為考試太難副座 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4978.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5000.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
因為他們看到是高工時高壓力高責任卻沒有相應的待遇跟保障那如果待遇出了問題不檢討待遇環境出了問題不改善環境人才留不住只會想降低門檻補人那最後解決的不是人才荒是整個公務體系的人才危機會更加的嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5001.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5021.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
所以今天呢我們來要推動這個待遇法治化那聽說草案已經到草案已經到行政院了不知道我們還要院會那我們也不知道行政院拖了兩年製造它可以拖多久那可是為什麼要推動這個法治化其實目的不是單純要幫他們加薪而是建立一套公平透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5021.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5039.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
可預期的制度譬如說我們剛剛有可能有提到但是我們希望能夠真正落實入法公開透明當CPI指數累積到一定幅度的時候依法啟動檢討機制至少每四年定期能夠檢討一次待遇審議委員會納入軍公教代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5039.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5063.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
讓基層的聲音可以到進入決策過程而且比例不能太比例應該不得少於三分之一才是讓大家知道待遇調整不是政治恩惠不是到了選舉才想起來這是一個應該是一個制度正常運作的結果這才是一個成熟現代國家應有的做法最後在這邊本席還是要再度強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5065.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5085.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
軍公教從來都不是國家的成本而是國家的資產如果今天連負責行政、教育、治安、消防、國防的人都無法獲得合理而且可預期的待遇保障那流失的不只是人才流失的還有人民對政府的信任以及國家治理的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5085.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5109.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
所以本席在要求我們人總盡快督促行政院盡速完成審查作業提出明確的時程盡快將軍公教人員待遇調整條例院版草案送進立法院審議因為尊重軍公教從來都不是照顧軍公教而是來投資我們自己國家的未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5112.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5130.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
謝謝委員 我簡單做一個回覆就是剛剛院長講的那部分其實考卷部已經有出來說明了這是一個口誤 一個誤解那至於這個流採 攬採的部分我剛剛其實也做了報告就是他現在是必須多管 其實現在就去做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5131.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5152.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
待遇面 待遇面其實我們從去年到今年其實在軍警消這個老師還有其他公務教練其實年增的預算已經有兩百多億那接下來我們就要進行通案待遇的調整希望更全面的可以去照顧到公務員的待遇的這個部分那另外在植物獵等其實我們跟考試院合作也 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5153.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5179.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
三個階段調整的7000個植物把它調高讓它未來的環境可以發展環境會好一點包括像工程的這部分也把這個工程機關的委任的比例降低讓它以後可以從高考比較高等級進來然後另外剛才提的那個工作減量的部分我們也會努力來進行郭騰錫公務人員但是事實事實擺在眼前每年都越報考越來越少 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5180.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5201.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
那我們為什麼今天特地把這個案子拿來做詢答就是希望說我們能夠存活這個法治化的存在委員的意見跟政府是一樣的我們其實就是還是希望這個公園能夠越來越好我們期待正版這是我們的職責正院版的草案盡快進來好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝林培祥委員那接下來我們請林倩琦委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5211.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5213.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
就副人事長先喝口茶謝謝我們的主席翁釗瑋針對今天的議題我先請我們的張副人事長和待會也請嚴視察這邊主計總處今天的代表做一個準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5241.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5263.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
好 副市長您好本期今天要請教的在針對今天這個主題軍工教待遇的議題可能在你們這個院版的一個討論當中有三個部分請你們要注意第一個就是關於參與決策的人還有第二個在景氣你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5265.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5284.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
談到社會景氣的一個變動跟軍公交人員實質的一個感受還有實際的落差那最後一個是有關於原住民族在這個退休金月退勤領的這個部分那我想為原住民來做個請命也就是希望你們能夠提早跟提前那在針對這三個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5285.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5309.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
所以第一個部分也就是說在整個軍公教待遇調整法制化之後基層的代表參與是不是有實質性的問題那麼近期大家都非常關心在軍公教審議委員會的一個決策應該要更加透明那除了你們已經有列的官方代表也要納入足夠的現職軍公教代表讓實際承受薪資 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5311.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5325.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
物價工作負擔負荷的基層人員真正能夠進入審議程序的一個參與那目前待遇調整機制是在調整方案送審議委員會前那麼你們人總會會同教育部來召開公教團體的座談會 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5327.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5340.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
但是這個相關意見的這個相關代表的意見呢要轉給待遇審議委員會那麼提供行政院做政策參考那我正要請教一下所以這樣的機制究竟代表這個基層的代表是參與決策還是意見諮詢您的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5344.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5359.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我跟委員報告就是我剛有報告說其實我們有收集了各先進國家的這個主要的這個所以你們是收集先進國家所以在台灣實際上所謂壽星的相關的這個代表你們他的意見究竟到底是參與決策還是意見諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5361.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5379.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
現在世界各主要的先進國家比如說美日韓還是在講先進國家本人本席所談的事情我們跟他們現在的做法是接近的你一直在做這樣子的比較但我的重點是參與這個決策裡面的軍公教的代表第一 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5379.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5388.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
是人數比例的問題第二他們的意見究竟是參與決策還是意見諮詢而已都有參與建議但是最後的這個決定權都必須要是主政者去橫走整體的國家資源的狀況去做決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5397.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5410.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
現在我們收集的狀況是這樣他們如果被你們邀來座談最後的決策只有在行政院內部或官方的主控那是不是這些基層被邀請的人只是來背書或事實上都沒有實際參與決策他們是所謂壽星最直接的人所以你們把他們請來那究竟他們的角色是什麼我覺得你們要很清楚地橫著考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5422.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5436.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
第一 比例上的問題 第二 他們的意見 究竟你們要參與多少程度讓他們辭職是有參與的 而不是感覺是來背書 只是被邀約 然後表達意見到最後意見可能完全沒有被採用這個部分請問你怎麼看這個委員的意見我們會納進去我們的草案的參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5444.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5458.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
好那我們就會就希望能夠在草案裡面看到比較具體的一個回應好那第二個問題你們經常提到未來正院版的這個調整的這個條例草案當中審議委員會成員會列入公教的基層代表那 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5459.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5478.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
本席這邊也關心所以如果基層代表只有兩成那未來八成如果由官方行政體系來掌控基層代表根本在這個人數上跟你們是不成比例的會不會被多數壓制那麼最後是不是只把原本的座談會改成諮詢委員會那這個部分您的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5478.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5491.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
你們在法制化的方向在比例上是不是可以有實質的參考我相信其他委員應該有提過那本席所提到的比例上的問題不會一開始就產生不公平的這個狀況您的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5493.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5514.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
跟委員報告 這個其實應該說不用去擔心所謂政府掌控的問題因為這裡面也有中央各部會我們大概就是軍公教勞工國家發展委員會 當然是有中央各部會但是我們是行政議題嘛他們其實是代表各個不同領域的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5515.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5537.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那另外還有地方政府的代表我們也知道我們的國家其實每個地方的政府代表這個執政的黨派也不會都一樣所以這個好像另外學者專家其實我這邊談的啦基層的代表請你們我就直接講希望你們未來在這個整個條例裡面在基層代表的比例不要讓這個比例在一開始就居於 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5538.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5543.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
不公義跟不公平的狀態 這個部分請你們在條例草案裡面務必很清楚的來考量 細緻一點考量那第二個部分 本席這邊要請教 景氣的成長跟軍公教基本薪資調整的這個落差那前面我們也談到 軍公教待遇的一個機制 應該要公開透明調整的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5563.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5568.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那麼讓基層實時來參與審議那接下來本期要請教的是待遇能不能調整不能只看行政院內部的這個決策要回到整體經濟物價壓力跟壽星階級實時的取得跟感受剛才林委員林沛翔委員也提到那你們經常都提這個這十幾年來我們的景氣是最好但是真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5588.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5601.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
公教人員跟一般民眾的感受是激進於零這在薪資的部分所以根據主計總署你們的數據那麼去年2005年2025年那麼全年經濟成長率達到了很高8.63%那麼你們都一直標榜創下15年來的新高那主計總署也認為國內的景氣在穩健上升那麼2026年的經濟成長率那麼也預估是9.64% |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5616.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5642.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那麼如果就這些數據來做一個比較分析那麼政府對外傳達的訊息就是說景氣很好 很亮眼但是呢 本時要請教主席總署那為什麼景氣數字這麼好那麼人民卻感受不到薪資的成長那麼在2026年軍公教的待遇調整有沒有納入預算那麼基本工資的調整也受到壓縮那這跟政府所在講的經濟成長成果有很大的落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5642.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5653.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
那你們對於這樣目前不調心的說法是政府面臨多重的一個挑戰包括關稅對外的出口跟產業競爭力的壓力但是你們主計總署對2026年的預測已經將總體的這個相關因素都納入了結果你們估計成長率可以至少還可以達3.54%談到剛才9點多跟3點多一個落差那為什麼會有這樣一個決策落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5669.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5689.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
委員好 跟委員報告就是我們115年度其實每一個年度我們都是去看人事總書是不是有提出調薪的一個方案那再經過行政院會綜合考量整個這個我們知道啦那請問可以先針對你們這個剛才我們講到的這個景氣的這個落差的percentage你可以先做一個回應嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5690.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5710.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
景氣的落差你們對2026年的預測那你們原先講到這個調薪停滯的這個問題是因為本席剛才所羅列的這一些因素那但是這些因素你們都在考慮進去還有3.54%你們原先不是要9點多嗎那現在是3.54那這個落差為什麼會有這樣一個落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5711.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5735.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
不好意思 因為這個部分可能涉及到統計的這個方面因為這個部分可能就不是我這邊專業的那你們是不是要把這個相關的這個資料 數據跟分析給本席嗎因為本席有看到你們在預測的這個落差跟因素調整進去你們在談到說那調心的這個部分的困難是因為有本席剛才所講的那些因素的這個影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5736.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5761.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那但是事實上它還是你們還是有3.54的這個預估成長的預估那所以對於調薪的困難那跟這個落差有關係嗎所以本席想要做這個問你們在這個落差你們都已經考慮進去之後然後還對認為軍公教的這個調薪有困難那這個困難我們必須透過一個交叉比對了解困難的原因在哪裡嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5761.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5789.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
跟委員說明就是因為經濟的預測它是一直在變動的那當然是近期因為經濟表現越來越好所以它的那個預測會再往上提升那當時我們在編預算的時候確實會依照當時的經濟成長的一個情況那去綜合考量我們整個財政狀況所以本席認同如果如你們預測的那麼高那軍公教待遇不管怎麼樣你應該要同時間去考量這個等比的往上提嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5790.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5809.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
一直有這個困難大家各界提出來之後你們的這個原因說困難的原因基本上就算有困難的原因它還是往上提的那你們就往上提的這樣一個指數是不是應該來跟軍公教調新的這個比例也再做一個比較呢這個部分是不是可以請你們給本席提出一個比較細節性的書面報告好 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5813.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5838.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我再請教兩個問題你們是不是認為目前台灣經濟成長的成果有充分反映在壽星階級的實質薪資上然後第二個部分是你們在提供行政院薪資政策跟總預算編列參考的時候有沒有將實質薪資物價壓力 均公較流財還有最低工資的審議跟所得分配納入整體的評估不是只有看所謂的財政壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5840.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5857.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那這邊我本席的提醒是你們經濟成長不能只停留在統計的數字也不是說GDP很亮眼但是一般的軍公教人員跟一般勞工感受其實是激進於零所以你可不可以是先對本席剛才所講那兩點很簡短的做一個回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5858.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5886.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
就是有關委員剛剛講的這個經濟成長的這個狀況因為這個可能就是持續在滾動檢討的那我們當然預算籌編的時候一定會用當時經濟預測的一個推估去通盤考量所以你是不是會後給本席補一個剛才本席所講的實質薪資物價壓力還有軍公教留才最低薪資審印跟所得的這個分配這個部分也納入剛才本席所跟你提的你們在這個GDP的成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5887.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5904.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
然後跟對公教人員的調心的一個比對落差那把實質的一個回應給本席好不好好那最後本席要為接下來本席請一下這個詮釋部謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5907.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5928.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
那主席總書就麻煩你們不僅是統計的這個數值那統計的分析跟比較的落差本席希望能夠看到這樣子一個回應 好嗎好 謝謝委員好好 情緒部本席這邊要為原住民族的這個公務人員月退勤領的條件來請命那這個部分也會跟原鄉人力回流有一些關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5930.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5946.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那麼在這個我們月退制度能不能反映不同族群的生命歷程就會從你們在對於原住民族公務人員月退金請領的年齡所反映出來那本席在這邊認為你們應該先做一個適度的調整那重點就是說你們在115年 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5948.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5967.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
退休可支領月退金的這個條件裡面針對原住民族的公務人員月退金勤免的條件還是60歲那本席認為如果參照原住民族的平均餘命跟社會福利制度的邏輯那麼年齡的門檻其實在你們的部分應該有一個檢討的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5968.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5984.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
也就是說那個113年我們看這個原住民族的生命表那麼原住民族平均餘命是73.23歲就73歲左右那男性是68歲那女性是77.78那麼相較於全國的平均餘命都比較低整體低了 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5984.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6013.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
原住民族整體低了7.54歲那麼原住民族的男性更低於全國平均壽命11歲所以這樣的差距在反映在原住民族的健康工作跟社會環境還有社會條件上的一個長期不利的處境那這樣也因為這樣許多社會福利制度也已經把原住民族老人的標準定為55年55歲而不是一般的所謂65歲那所以本席認為這個退休金 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6014.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6029.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
給予的退休給付的這個問題也涉及到原住民族投入公職跟返鄉回流的服務那目前本席其實針對這個問題是跨部會的有在做這個分析那麼整個原鄉整體發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6030.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6045.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
55歲到60歲之間的原住民公務人員還很有豐富的行政經驗公共事務的能力跟部落的連結如果他們能夠在比較合理的年齡來退休那有穩定的退休金來支持那麼在不太有經濟壓力的情況下 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6048.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6072.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
來投入回流投入部落原鄉的這個公共事務文化的傳承跟地方創生那麼還有災防社區照顧跟青年賠利的這個部分那是原鄉人才回流很重要的一個方式跟策略所以本席來請教你們兩個問題全序部是不是可以參考比較原住民族平均餘命的社會福利的制度邏輯 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6073.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6093.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
研議將原住民族的公務人員可支領的月退薪資的條件拉到55歲那麼針對原住民族男性平均餘命也明顯低於全國11歲的這個情況呢可以做更細緻的政策評估而不是只用一般公務人員退休制度的框架來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6094.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6119.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
第二個部分是不是可以麻煩你們來會同原民會人事行政總署及相關機關來評估一下原住民公務人員提前退休後那投入原鄉公共服務部落治理跟地方發展的制度權衡跟銜接那這個部分是不是請你可以就說明那今天最主要訴求就是原住民族的公務人員退休經勤領年齡 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6120.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6140.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
是否可以延逸來提前到55歲並進行政策評估跟執行謝謝委員寶貴的意見那委員的這個意見大概涉及到比較涉及到政策決定或是在做細部的一個評估那我會把委員的意見帶回去跟部長報告然後再請相關的主管是再研究看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6141.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6156.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那本席也希望你們能夠在會後針對本席講的這個議題不管是你們內部或者是跟外部的一個諮詢可能也可以就會同相關單位來來處理本席所談到的平均餘命的問題還有部落 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6158.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6183.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
部落回流這個人才回流在這個制度的一個規劃跟設計下其實是可以達到兩鄉這個都有好處的一個狀態好不好那就麻煩你們那也比較請那個可不可以有比較具體的回應報告在一個月內至少給本席一個你們討論的方向跟可能性好不好書面喔可以嗎好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6188.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6215.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
好謝謝林委員謝謝我們接下來請翁昭偉好謝謝主席呢首先有請我們的副人事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6222.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6229.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
是 夫人市長好我想這個上個月卓榮泰他在電視專訪中然後大放釋出利多就卓榮泰他在電視專訪裡面他釋放了一個利多對工人來講是一個利多他說因為國家經濟體制比過去更好所以明年的軍公教條新是必然的而且條幅一定是在3%到4%的這個基礎上來做思考我想請教夫人市長就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6252.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6256.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
你們現在已經有召開或是已經啟動了軍公教待遇審議委員會就這個議題有開始討論了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6261.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6279.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
跟委員報告我們前一段其實也跟委員會也做過報告因為預算審查的時候大家也都有關心這個議題那我們過去一段時間就一直在蒐集相關的指標跟新的指標我是不是要問說已經啟動這個會議在開始討論了嗎已經有開過會了嗎這個禮拜一我們已經開始啟動跟軍公教團體的基層代表的這個座談我們跟教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6287.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6291.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
所以你們的成績是怎麼樣?基本上是先跟軍公教團體座談,然後之後才開會嗎?對對,之後才會去開會所以你們的會還沒有開?對對對,我們會盡量趕,上次有跟委員報告說我們是上次有報告說6、7月嘛,然後因為會隨著總預算提出來所以我們會盡量來趕,因為軍公教的意見我們已經開過座談 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6311.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6331.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我覺得很有趣的就是說其實你們根本還沒有開會嘛如果剛剛聽副任市長的意思現在還沒有還沒有開會但是我們行政院院長就已經對外定調了這個調整的幅度他不是說要調整3% 4%雖然說大部分的軍公教的人員都不滿意這樣的一個調整的幅度可是呢事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6334.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6348.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
現在卓榮泰似乎就已經下了指導旗那你去問叫審議委員會到目前為止都還沒有開會他怎麼就可以下指導旗還是說反正不管你們現在做的也都是刑事然後之後一定會依照卓榮泰的意見大概就調個4%是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6350.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6362.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
我跟委員報告我們的委員會運作過去都已經很制度化了對你們過去的制度化就是軍公交審議權只是建議權沒有決定權我們還是會提我們的建議的方案所以我們會就是這個看起來院長講的應該是講說因為你們軍公交審議委員會到現在也還沒有開會嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6382.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6387.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
但是行政院院長主任他已經對外都已經放話說至少要調5%至少要調5%至少要調5%至少要調5%至少要調6% |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6401.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6423.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
可是你們是有建議權喔最後還是在行政院院長他說了算這樣的一個制度合理嗎其實為什麼本席今天會提出軍公教待遇調整法這個軍公教待遇調整條例最重要的原因就是我們不希望未來整個軍公教的薪水的調整全部都是取決於一個人的手上 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6423.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6433.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
而且都是在把他當成一個政治籌碼選前的時候才加薪如果沒有選舉的話是連動都不動根本報告其實不會啦就是我看院長那個專法應該是在對目前的這個經濟條件比較持樂觀的態度去看待並不是下什麼指導旗因為我們還是會依照我們的程序去提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6448.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6471.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
都還沒有開啊這就是我們在說的啊就是依照你們的軍工依照現在的全國軍工教育局待遇具體要點裡面的規定就是必須要這審議會啟動啟動之後討論之後然後提出一個建議發然後再給行政院那現在行政院院長自己就說了這個反正我們大概就調個百分之三百分之四跟我們報告院長的決定也是會根據一些專業的指標來做判斷就算是你們花了很多的時間去做座談 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6477.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6505.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
然後提出建議開會提建議最後也還是行政院院長說了算那麼事實上今天我們討論軍公教待遇調整條例的議題那是本席在第一會期的時候當時我就有要求人事行政總署必須要就軍公教調新機制法制化來進行研擬可是我這是第一會期提出的現在已經是第五會期了 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6506.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6517.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
過了兩年了我知道人事行政總署其實你們是有提法案的可是你們的法案基本上就是把軍公教待遇知己要點 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6519.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6544.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
幾乎全文沒什麼改然後就變只是後面要點變成一個條例換了一個名詞事實上就是換湯不換藥本期基本上有看過人事行政總署提的法案雖然說你們現在是送到行政院行政院還沒有正式的審議拍板要送到立法院可是坦白說我覺得人事行政總署真不用功 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6545.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6574.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
跟委員報告 你們裡面的人事行政總署這麼多的同仁結果竟然只是把這個要點 然後修一個法案 跟委員報告 這個委員可能有點誤解我們這個法制化的規定會跟現在有很大的不一樣包括委員關心的那些大概什麼條件可能就一定要提動調新的機制等等所以就是我之前看的是第一版 你們之後還會有第二版就是了 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6575.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6583.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我想這個院版送出來一定會更周延會比最早的這個會更周延好 做了兩年都還沒有辦法提出一個本席更周延的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6590.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6609.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
我實在是很感慨現在行政院裡面不曉得押了多少法案一百五十幾個法案吧一百五十四個我最近好像還在看到一百五十四個法案都是各個機關所提出的法案行政院押在那裡不審就不審不動就不動我們立法院現在每個立法委員都很認真不斷地提出法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6610.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6631.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那行政院是跟在後面跑甚至後來根本就懶得跑了反正你們立法委員自己去提案今天的軍公教待遇調整法案也是一樣的情況民眾黨提了我也提了我給你們兩年的時間到現在都沒有提出來所以我在這次人事行政總署的預算審查上面我給你們附了這個凍結條件對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6636.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6643.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
是你如果說你們不提出來我跟你講你們的預算就卡在那邊就不要凍結因為人事行政總署怠惰行政院也怠惰這是個很嚴重的問題那更何況剛剛這個婦人市長你口口聲聲說你們的這個接下來的這個軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案呢會參考這個其他民主國家來做如果說你這麼說的話我希望你能夠做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6665.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6681.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
因為我看到你們第一版的軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案那個基本上是換湯不換藥只是換了一個把要點變成一個條例的名詞在這邊我要建議我要提醒夫人市長你去看看日本怎麼做你去看看香港怎麼做在前幾天我看到一個新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6686.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6709.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
香港呢他們基本上對公務員的加薪是在會前一定就是在提案之前他們會事前的與多個公務員的員工會面公會會面他們會跟多個公務員的公會的會面商討公務員的加薪幅度所以他們今年香港的公務員加薪是4.12%我再提日本 日本怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6715.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6716.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
不知道富田市長知道日本怎麼做嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6717.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6726.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
主要是參考民間薪資的指數很好日本他們有一個單位叫人事院翻譯成叫人事院他們都會參考民間大企業的薪資來提出對於公務員合理的薪資待遇譬如說如果以法治人員來講他可能就會看大的律師事務所他們給律師的待遇是多少有資深的律師待遇會不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6745.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6763.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
如果说是科技方面领域的公务员他可能会看我们现在的几个大的科技产业台积电给多少薪水联发科给多少薪水台达电给多少薪水所以呢日本的人事院基本上是会参考大企业的薪资的相当水准 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6764.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6779.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
然後來提出一個合理的公務員的調薪的待遇而且更重要的是日本的人事院他是每一年都會對於公務員的薪資提出一份報告送到立法院來 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6780.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6809.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
送到他們的國會然後由國會來決定要不要給公務員調薪我認為這個才是一個合理的方向雖然說本席在這個待遇調整條例法案裡面我沒有做這麼大幅度的修正但是事實上我覺得日本的制度非常值得我們台灣學習所以我希望人事長你們如果接下來行政院的版本希望能夠參考日本跟香港的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6810.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6826.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
要將不僅將薪資待遇法制化同時這個公務員要不要加薪的這件事情是不是應該要回歸到由國會來決定而不是由行政這個這個由執政者由行政院自己一手做決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6829.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6846.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
現在我們的機制最後也是要國會決定行政院合定以後其實就是要並總預算送到國會國會通過以後才有辦法去生效執行現在我們的制度也是要國會要通過也不是行政院說的就是最後的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6847.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6870.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
好那基本上我想就是這兩個國家制度都值得我們的市行事總署行政院去參考那更重要是說本席在這次我提的法案裡面跟你們第一版的待遇調整條例草案最大的不同就是未來行政院必須要尊重審議委員會的決定而不應該任意的去變更 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6872.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6881.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
審議委員會 這個是否要調新的這個決定我們要回歸到專業化 制度化好 那接下來呢 我第二個問題呢 要請第二個問題就是說事實上就是這個部分的話 可能請全審司的司長麻煩那個人事麻煩副人事長 你還是一起回答好 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6901.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6919.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
我想這個其實公務員我剛其實在這個本席所提做的提案說明裡面都已經有講了依據憲法第83條還有憲法之修條文第6條的規定公務員的諷解事件其實明明就是考試院的專屬權限我不知道為什麼權序部 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6920.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6938.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
考試院學習部在這件事情上面這麼的消極向來就是認為說這個權反正行政院他要走了然後所有的公務人員軍公教的待遇就是由行政院去決定可是這明明基本上公務人員奉集法就是考試院的主管法規為什麼你們從來不參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6941.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6970.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
包委員 先從那個 就是說憲法所定考試院的執掌那憲法執法條例講的是公園的集縫的法制事項所以目前的公園縫集法跟加緊約辦法相關的縫集法制都是考試院主管然後也是全區部在管 沒有問題那但是在執行的部分呢可能涉及到國家整個資源財政的分配的問題所以事實上的整個公園的縫他資給的數額就是用縫點 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6971.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6993.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
加上奉年的折合率來計算所以這部分就涉及到行政院的全責市長 林鄭理事院的講得很好你也知道說集奉的這件事情是由考試院詮釋部要來主管我們的公文人員奉集法有多少年沒有修了對於我們的集奉 我們今天的奉集表有多少年沒有修了 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6996.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7022.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
報委員 縫表的組成它除了官等 職等 它有縫級跟縫點好 我現在的官等 職等 縫級表等等這些現在你們現在談的都只是縫點的折算率折算額度現在看起來都是由行政院 人事行政總署這裡決定但是如果說我們從法制的架構來講法律本來就是賦予給考試院要做的可是你們自己現在放棄棄守公務人員的縫級權益法制的這個釋權 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7024.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7047.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
然後全部都是讓行政院去一手遮攬 一手攬因為現在的人事制度是官職並立制這個制度它涉及就是整個人事制度的結構性的一個根本那這個要調整呢 事實上沒有那麼容易所以在鳳姐的設計當初就保有那個待遇調整的彈性就採鳳點制的基礎值等已經幾十年了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7049.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7066.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
幾十年還是五六十年都沒有修正過我們always都是到十四值等然後呢 所謂的違建 就是違任建任減任對不對 這個也從來沒有改過考試院難道都不應該要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7067.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7088.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
檢討 循序部從來沒有去思考過這樣的一個值等這樣的一個極等制度是不是合理因為它一定會連結到就是說公務人員的薪水待遇的問題其實本期在這邊已經聽了非常非常多公務人員的抱怨譬如說委任值等或是譬如說以罰金等等來說他在怎麼樣努力他最多只能升兩個值等 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7090.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7107.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
這很不合理的事情可是呢 全序部好像從來也沒有作為喔好 OK 那我希望就是全序部回去好好的 努力的去調整一下我們的公務人員諷刑法裡面至少我們的直等 彎等這些制度是不是應該要重新做一個大幅度的檢討那我也再容許我再說幾分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7108.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7128.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
其實現在的關子病例是在76年1月16日施行到現在確實有50年不過部裡面在這個期間也是曾經多次在研議包括職等的架構的調整那這個部分都涉及到整個制度的變革它其實牽涉的範圍非常的廣泛 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7129.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7136.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
所以每次在40年了 所以你剛司長還講 你們76年到現在我們現在116年了對不對40年了 一個考試院連一個公務人員奉集法 連職等官等都研究不出來難怪為什麼現在我們國家治理會這麼糟糕然後優秀的公務人員 公教人員都不願意進來公務體系 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7155.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7174.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
來服務這是很大的問題所以考試院難辭其咎啦不過謝謝市長你們這裡的回覆我希望考試院能夠盡速的去研擬相關的修法好嗎好麻煩就市長回去再拜本席的意見給全區部部長還有考試院指導好謝謝好那接下來那個請 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7178.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7204.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
請我們的人事長我想在最後一個議題最後一個議題就是說你們現在這個軍公教人員調整諮詢會議裡面事實上剛剛林建琦委員有講看起來根本就是叫諮詢會而不是叫審議會而除此之外你現在的既然是叫做軍公教的待遇知己 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7206.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7215.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
軍公教待於自己要點可是呢你們在整個設計裡面在現在制度裡面是只有公教的代表竟然把現役軍人排除在外這是什麼原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7218.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7243.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
跟委員報告 軍人因為他的職務上的特殊性他是跟國安有點關係但是我們軍方這樣的條件都是聯動的啊 不都一致的所以我跟委員報告 我們軍人就是放國防部在裡面國防部就代表軍方的意見然後跟委員報告 我們過去的條件 軍人絕對是優先考量的項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7245.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7259.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
這個我想委員大概也非常了解本席希望之後你們的新版本裡面其他國家也不會把軍人放在待遇協商裡面所有的相關涉及的機關都應該要有代表而且最重要的是要有員工的代表而不是都是由機關本身做代表他必須要有討論到各級的團體的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7270.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7281.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
過去這個國防部也都非常盡責的幫軍人的這部分發言還有最後一個 還有就是跟人事長這邊一個問題就是說這次的加薪會調本縫嗎委員報告 剛剛其實我也有報告過我們的年度加薪都會整體的去考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7291.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7315.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
所以聽起來好像不會調本縫 而只是調家籍我們會整體去做建議本席希望再次的調薪還是要調本縫要調本縫才有意義調家籍的話可能又會有選擇性也不是說所有的人全部都可以領到家籍所以本席這邊強烈的建議你回去告訴卓榮泰要調 有誠意就調本縫 不要去只是調家籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7316.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7343.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
好那最後一個問題就是有關於總原額的部分那麼事實上就是我們中央政府機關總原額法從民國99年實行至今已經超過15年這個部分可能要請那個主計總處的檢閱視察嚴視察好好一起來回答這個問題因為本期已經聽了非常多的機關抱怨為什麼現在公務員包含司法官檢察官然後袁錦霄等等大家的公務的 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7344.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7345.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
壓力這麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7347.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7373.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
事情这么多做不完基本上都是因为卡在我们的中央机关总原额法里面非常僵化的规定这个是从民国99年当时在中央政府机关总原额法里面当时就明定我们所有的公务人员的总原额上限是16万09百 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7375.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7382.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
可是從民國99年到現在事隔15年我們已經這個政府機關組織已經增加了非常多然後很多的各式各樣的這個全線任務全部都增加可是我們的人力的總數還是只停留在16萬900那裡面是分成五類啦那其中像司法院只有給他1500個名額法務部的檢察官也只是給他6900個名額員警校全國加起來24300人 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7404.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7421.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
所以其實從現代角度來看,這種原額法是應該要做修正了,要調整,要隨著我們的任務的變化,我們的職權的變化,機關組織的增加,要做一個適當的調整。 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7423.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7437.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
請問這個是屬於人事行政總署主管的法規還是跟委員報告這是人行總署主管的法規跟委員報告就是剛才委員提到幾個重點的機關譬如說司法院最近十年其實我們已經增加了三千個員額給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7439.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7453.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
其實在整個政府的員額沒有大幅變動的狀況之下其實大部分的員額的增加就是這一塊那剛剛委員提到的消防的部分消防大部分是在地方然後我們從107年到117年有一個10年的增額的計畫大概要增加到6000個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7462.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7471.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
要增加消防人員要增加六千人那各地方政府消防署也很積極在這個協調各地方政府現在大概增加到五千多人您今天在怎麼樣增加在怎麼樣調整你都是在十六萬零九百人裡面自己去做調整你這個餅就這麼大你把這個原額數你給了袁錦霄那其他機關的人力就沒有辦法增加啊就像是您剛剛講的司法院司法院他的天花板就是一萬五千人 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7492.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7512.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那明明現在就不夠然後因為就是法官人力不足然後呢就猛聘法官助理然後從本來應該是公務員職缺後來又變成是約聘僱人員職缺其實我們現在政府機關從1949年當時在馬政府時代那時候講到說我們的政府要精簡可是事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7513.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7535.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
並沒有精檢啊反而是人員越聘越多然後越聘過人員越聘越多我希望人事總署基本上要去做檢討好不好今天我這時間已經佔用太多了不好意思呢影響了下個委員的質詢那我希望人事總署也是盡快然後能夠在這個會期給本席一個報告或者是直接提修法然後要去修改中央政府機關總原額法可以嗎好 我們給委員一個報告好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7544.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7547.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
謝謝我們翁莊委那我們請下一位張雅玲委員好 謝謝張委員那麼我們接下來請張雅玲委員發言好 謝謝主席那我們請副院市長好 請副院市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7564.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7579.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
好 我想先請教一下就是說最近有非常多人今天有很多的委員也都有討論關於軍工加薪的這個問題那我想問一下今年是現在我明確的問一個問題是不是有可能今年來發佈而且在明年來執行呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7581.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7605.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
跟委員報告 現在以各種我們現在收集到的數據我們是樂觀的 樂觀的提條性的建議如果是 你們覺得有多樂觀呢1到10的話 我們自己現在是努力的之前我們委員長在委員會也有做過說明我們現在目前看的數據 包括之前這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7607.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7636.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
院長其實也有一些這個有人沒關係我想大家前面都有我們會往朝調心的方向去規劃好 因為我想大家都非常關注這件事情因為大家已經提出了非常多的論述包含我們的經濟成長率 CPI 等等我都認為是非常需要來去照顧到我們基層的公務人員因為還是有很多的公務人員願意接受這樣子的心理我們朝這個方向去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7636.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7657.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
但是他們是非常優秀的公務人員我想在我們許多的質詢上面我們面對了很多的公務人員都願意的來協助民代民意代表們了解更多食物上面的問題然後也積極的來去協助民眾解決食物上面問題所以我認為他們的努力他們的付出是值得用心思來回顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7658.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7675.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
這是我的立場那也是我一貫以來一直在要求是說我們要法治化的調心然後我們要有教師公務人員的代表這是我這一貫的立場那我想很多的立法委員應該也都非常清楚現在要招募人才包含我們自己的立法院的助理們都非常的困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7677.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7697.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那當然薪資是一個原因或工作條件也是一個原因最近我們可以看到像是大家都說要保護公務員但是蔣萬安市長卻在週末的時候假日的時候讓公務人員來寫這些新聞稿來做這些政治攻防的工作那我覺得這就不是一個善待公務員的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7699.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7724.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
這會讓公務員陷入一個困境那所以接下來我就想要回到薪資的部分我們如何的真正的落實那剛剛其實歐小林委員跟我的想法是一致的就是我們是不是可以像日本人事院有一個非常明確的每一年去調整市場的薪資然後依據不同的職務或是工作地區學歷等等的來找出來計算出跟公司部門之間的薪水的級距 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7725.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7740.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
那我也認為只有這樣子我們才能夠去確保我們能夠提供給公務人員更有競爭力的薪資那我想問一下就是說目前我們人種應該是沒有做相關的調查吧對不對我們沒有類似的這樣的調查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7741.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7763.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
跟委員報告 委員提到跟剛剛委員講的日本的部分是比較走民間企業的薪資水準做他們比較重要的資料我想不只日本啦 包含我自己過去在外商新加坡的同事都跟我說我們在他們新加坡最優秀的人才一定是到新加坡 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7764.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7785.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
就是像我們在外商呢 是其實不是最優秀的人才啦所以我想這個其實不只只有日本啦 新加坡也是所以我只能問一句啦 在台灣其實我們有把這個因素放進去但是台灣大部分的討論是在實質購買力的部分會被更關注 會被更關注這些我都清楚 這些我們都會放進去對 但我想是不是可以給我一句承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7790.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7811.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
副理事長 抱歉我們也會副理事長 請回答我的問題就是說我的要求是說我們是不是可以根據日本的這樣子的做法去做一個整體的薪資的盤點其實很簡單 你就可以勾結勞保的資料嘛對不對 這也是一個方法是不是可以研議這樣子的一個做法呢讓我們有更明確的為什麼我說要這樣做是我們更明確的 更清楚的用數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7813.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7822.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
理性科學的去了解不是用感覺我們應該調整幾%不是我們是就回到一個穩定的制度上面去實務的面對薪資調整的這個問題是不是可以參照呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7827.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7847.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
在台灣其實我們主義總署跟勞動部都有這樣的資料我們都會納到參考的資料那我希望你們接下來要把這樣子的東西納入參考那我也希望你們是不是現在就可以來盤算如果要用這樣子的方法我們到底要增加多少的財務預算這樣子的預算到底是怎麼樣是不是可以做一個盤點跟計算可以嗎可以可以好那大概什麼時候可以提供給我們呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7855.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7880.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
我們可以給因為這些都是現有的資料我們可以把我們現在處理的方式跟市場薪資差距的部分我要的是市場薪資差距的部分這個我們可以多久大概什麼時候可以給我們一個月好不好一個月好一個月那再來就是說我還是非常關注就是我自己這跟權序部可能會有關係可以先請權序部任總也是先留著 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7884.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7902.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
好基本上就是說我一直以來都非常關心我們如何提供給我們所有的工作人員公務人員勞工也好這個家庭支持的部分友善職場的部分那我也有看到就是說在總統其實提出了這18項支持生育的措施支持友善職場的措施之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7903.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7927.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我覺得也不錯 元旭部其實是有說要配合相關的修法而且條件基本上是跟勞動部一致那產檢架目前也都是會往這個方向但是我想要知道目前的進度是什麼因為我們好像公務人員也非常關心但是我們並沒有看到明確的進度是不是可以告訴我們接下來你們大概什麼時候會完善這些法制化的作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7929.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7955.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
報告委員 謝謝委員部裡面針對行政院推出這些方案都很積極的配合去處理那什麼時候我想知道是什麼時間在法律修正部分我們的公教人保險法跟公務員利用法在6月3號已經送到考試院去審議那法規命令部分包括請假規則跟留職提醒辦法這部分會涉及到性供法實際修正的情形所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7956.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7963.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
我們部裡面都已經積極在處理就是等信工法審議的情形比較確定之後我們就會去行後面的法制作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7964.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7989.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
所以基本上就是跟著配合就對了那接下來我想要談一下第15個措施就是說談性減工時延伸到12歲因為我想這個是許多公務員非常關注的就是說我們到底可不可以一起來配合讓他們可以縮短工時去好好的照顧他們的家庭那目前也是一樣你們就是說會配合性工法來去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7990.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8013.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
這個相關的討論跟修正但事實上勞動部這次在談性工時的這一點他其實是沒有要修法對那所以我想知道關鍵這一點你們會怎麼去做配合因為我們有洽過勞動部啦因為具體的他的細部做法也還沒出來那原則上我們會配合勞動部的比較細部的做法就公務員部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8013.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8035.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
但是他們的政策概念就是勞資雙方同意的前提下但是現在在我們的公務體系有一個比較大的問題是說員工、公務員們想要請的時候是主管不合嘛主管認為這不需要嘛所以我們有沒有清楚的掌握到底有什麼樣子的類型其實是蠻適合的那鼓勵我們的主管去配合呢因為這個其實不涉及修法嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8037.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8053.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
對 因為如果是不涉及到修法部分呢部裡面就會配合比較細部的做法就是確定勞動部的那個放的範圍到底有多寬之後我們大概就會朝那個方向再去檢討修正相關的行政規則或是法規命令去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8054.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8080.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
所以目前你們的做法是會用行政命令或法規依循來辦理法規命令去處理對好那我想因為你這個部分因為我時間有限我這個部分我想要再跟你們約時間會後仔細的來討論好謝謝那我是希望說不要只有等勞動部那接下來我想問一下教育部跟國防部那你們是不是也會一併的配合實施呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8082.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8110.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
是不是教育部跟國防部都會配合接下來是措施第16就是有關於補助職代跟替代人力的部分我想問一下就是說你們現在是跟我們說你們其實都有職務代理加級可是這個其實跟職務代理加級完全不同因為過去我們是非主管代理主管職我們才會有可是這個其實是育兒工作所需要的職務代理接下來你們會如何配合勞動部的政策來做這個調整呢去規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8112.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8131.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
勞動部這個策略主要是補助契約在期待金貼嘛那在政府部門呢他事實上對於職務代理的有一套很完整的機制就是公務員在請假或是留職挺進期間都可以依照相關法令規定那這種育兒臨時育兒的檢工時的這個彈性檢工時的部分也是可以都有一個職務代理的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8134.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8160.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
也都有一個植物代理的機制所以接下來是不是可以明確的跟我們公務人員講如果是今天我們要月額減工時因為彈性工時減工時的部分這邊都可以有植物代理的加給對 我再說明一下就是如果是非限職人員部分就會找約聘公務人員去代理如果是限職人員部分他有一個合於植物代理加給的規定就會給他一個加給的代理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8162.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8188.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
因為公務機關的人員身份相當的複雜那因為剛剛你講的是公務員有一個職務代理的辦法但是因為涉及到這麼多大家都可以使用嗎我想這個公務員可能也不是也不是這樣子啦他們可能也不清楚那可能也不是全部都可以用那個職務代理的辦法所以我想問的是說我們是不是可以針對這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8190.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8198.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
這麼複雜的一個 我們現在在公務體系裡面的不管是約聘僱人員 臨時人員 勞務承攬人力更清楚讓大家知道說我們的職務代理的一個規劃是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8203.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8222.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
委員這個簡報裡面大概部裡面主管的就是公務員跟聘用人員這兩個部分這兩個部分事實上我們的相關法制剛才講就是對公務人員公務人員部分也有做解釋原則上他是依照性供法的相關規定很多都是透過行政解釋的方式去處理月聘人代理的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8222.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8249.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
對 可是因為我們這裡面在一起工作的人還有臨時人力 勞務承攬人力嘛 對不對可是他們也許並不是公務體系的嘛所以那他們在如果涉及植物要代理的時候他們該怎麼辦這個部分是不是給我們一個說明一份報告清楚的讓我們知道也讓我們所有公務人員知道這是不是可以跟人種一起來可以嗎那大概什麼時候可以給我們這份報告因為這個東西如果涉及要公務人員的植物代理的要調整的預算可能也要反映嘛多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8250.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8274.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
因為大部分都是 後面大部分都是人種的對 我知道 所以我說你們兩個一起嘛所以你們兩個多久可以給我們這份報告總數是說三個月太久了 你之後如果要牽扯到一個半月好不好因為這牽扯到你們如果預算要編列啊你們接下來預算要編列 你如果三個月就九月了欸對不對 你預算都已經送進來那你們也就不可能執行啊是不是一個半月可以嗎好不好 好 謝謝喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8278.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8302.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
好謝謝張委員那剛剛張委員所提示的這個請人事行政總處這裡要提供的報告也麻煩請給我們委員會每個委員一份因為我認為說是這個公務員現職的待遇跟民間企業的相比較的這份報告其實非常重要好的那本席先做會議議程的宣告然後待會等周瑞雄委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8306.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8311.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
就是莊銳雄委員 巡達完畢之後我們就休息五分鐘那接下來請莊銳雄委員發言謝謝主席 有請我們副任市長好 請 副任市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8328.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8345.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
委員長早我想今天你獨挑大樑那我想有幾個問題來請教就是說整個今天我們看這整個軍公教的一個待遇的一個調整條例以現在來看的話就變成說 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8347.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8356.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
院版我看你們還沒有送審那我想請教就是說你們這到底是有什麼自愛難省的地方嗎因為從2024年我看這個6月17號你們就喊請公交機關團體表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8362.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8382.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
那到了10月29號法規你們也審議完略那也報警行政院就是說這個整個公教人員待遇調整的條例的一個草案裡面現在在野黨的版本也排審了那行政院這個地方我看起來好像還沒有去做積極的一個回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8383.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8411.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
藉由這個資訊台來請教你們說你們的立場到底是怎樣就是說行政院的一個立場那你們版本呢到現在沒有去做一個提出最主要的原因是怎麼樣也沒有同意在野黨的版本你們認為你們反對的理由到底會是什麼麻煩了 不能這樣一直演繹啊因為畢竟在野黨的版本已經派遣了來 我想聽聽看你們具體的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8412.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8431.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
跟委員報告 我剛剛其實有稍微報告就是在我們整個研議的過程其實我們也是參考一些先進民主國家的相關的做法那現在這個大概各先進國家都會給這個相關的利害關係團體去表達意見的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8436.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8455.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
然後大部分的國家其實都是由專業的機關來組織這件事情然後有的是開審議會有的是透過一些意見的徵詢大家也可以提建議那最後的運作的機制因為它涉及國家的整體的資源的分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8456.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8462.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
所以除了就是我們要好好照顧公務員然後也要對整個這個國家資源的分配做一個總體的這個兼顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8467.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8494.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
那些就是可以提意見可以提建議然後我們也會有相關的指標然後提到最後還是主政者必須要負起那個決定的責任現在大概多數的國家是往這個方向走那當然有一些國家是用比較細緻的或者是他鎖定一個像剛才大家一直在講日本他是民間薪資去做一個比較大的標準那像台灣過去其實一直 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8494.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8514.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
是在考慮實質購買率但是我們會考慮其他的也會考慮民間薪資也會考慮其他的因素大概是會有這樣的差異也有委員一直在提說是不是公式化現在我們看到應該說除了美國有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8516.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8532.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
有一個機制是你一定達到一定的指標一部分是政府可以直接按照指標去調但是還是有另外一軌是由委員會去提建議給總統然後讓總統再去做裁決所以現在看起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8534.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8559.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
比較少用公司化的這個部分就是一個固定的然後讓這個必須要負責的行政院完全沒有去考量這個整體國家的這個資源的分配的那你會碰到一個問題你會碰到在野黨的版本進來以後這告別很現實的在野黨人數就比你還多就比執政黨還要多 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8561.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8585.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
我相信我的意思就是說其實我要講的就是說你們那個對岸你們對岸白的去白的賣我們有跟這個行政院一直在報告說這個在立法院草野的委員都很關注這件事情然後我們也有密集在討論這是我們希望這個因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8586.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8611.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
剛剛其實之前有一個報告,現在不管是軍人的待遇條例,教師的待遇條例,或者是公園的奉集法,或是家居集辦法,這個所謂奉集數額的這個責任的部分,其實在現行的法制上是劃給行政院的,因為它跟整個預算的編列是關聯的。那當然這件事情就是行政院的責任,所以我們以總署的立場,我們會建議要院板進來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8611.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8625.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
所以你這個結果我大略可以看到最後的結果會是些什麼啦但是我還是建議你們那些版本這樣想過對岸這樣子我是覺得是實在是兩黨的時間實在有比較慢的時間政治的一個環境那當然是現在來看的話就是草小野大嘛立法院裡面的多數裡面現在就是在野黨嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8639.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8666.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那沒有看到行政會的版本,你到最後通過的就會是在野黨的版本那你告訴我要怎麼因應,這大家都很清楚啦這個其實你們要好好去做一個思考啦那第二個就是說,這一次賴總統宣布的18項的一個家庭支持這些措施我看外界也都得到很大的鼓舞,表達歡迎但以目前來看的話,你這些補助,你就很分散 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8667.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8676.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
澳內政部 澳告部 澳衛福部 也有勞動部那現在對民眾來講的話他會幾個困境第一個就是說這個資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8678.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8703.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
我不一定我找得到 我符合資格我想要找這個資訊 真麻煩 這第一個那第二個就是說 我不曉得我自己是否符合資格這是前提的問題嘛 你不曉得你有沒有符合資格或在什麼地方 我就必須要打電話到公務機關去問那基層的公務人員 對他們來講的話也是很大的一個負擔那我在這個地方有一個建議 是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8704.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8734.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
你們這個地方我們人總這個地方也去跟速發部或者跨部會來做一個協調你們去建置一個家庭支持的一站式的一個平台比如說我用治安人憑證就可以去做一個登錄這資料怎麼樣去這個買data的部分就資料的一個串接然後自動資料的一個比對那主動列出申請的補助然後呢一件的一個申請跟這個整個導流的一個申辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8735.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8744.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
這個部分你們有想到這個嗎?給民眾比較好的一個裏面就變成說把它納入一個跨部會的一個數位整合的一個規劃有這樣計劃嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8748.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8773.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
跟委員包括委員這個建議非常好那這個因為有18項那的確是跨部會合作的那在行政院這一端是由國發會來做主導那我們回去我們會協調國會來請書發部這個採用委員的意見來做一個規劃的一站式的服務我想這個對不管是民眾或者是軍公教同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8773.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8800.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
都會是一個蠻好的幫助阿不 我覺得我做這個民眾 我覺得我在尋寶你知道嗎我知道政府有這個總統有宣布這麼多的政策行政院也通過說我就要這樣做就不去辯論到底是不是要法律授權的問題或者說這個整個幾副行政本來政府心力照顧老百姓都是應該的我站在民眾立場我就不跟你辯論那一些但是你至少讓我比較好處理嘛合理吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8803.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8805.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
不是嗎?你總要來看我位子我這要來問救保嗎?還是熱衷保有嗎?還是勞動部有嗎?我資格有好嗎?要到哪一個地方去找?我是覺得這個婦人職長這個地方應該把 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8820.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8827.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
我們回去處理 我們來協調國會來處理這個問題來跨部會 我覺得這個很重要我另外最後一個問題 我還要再來追問上次我有提過 就是公務人員這個這個有薪假 跟家庭照顧假的一個檢討就是說有薪假的天數 是不是足夠你說四假的保溫七天家庭照顧假七天 身薪假的請假三天 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8848.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8860.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
但是這個家庭照顧假跟身心調適假這個都是人事假做一個計算超過七天的部分才不給薪嘛這問題就是說你嫂子化了還要高齡化我看這次很多國家在離愁韓國他要改革你的嫂子女化的部分他就從公務人員機關裡面你只要選一個公家機關選一個30個月以下的你的工時減一天 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8878.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8897.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
那公務人員帶頭去做那財政支持的部分當然有些國家很激進啦但至少公務人員帶頭的部分就說 你要生孩子嗎 少子女的話我就是要多鼓勵政府來做一個支持就是在投資國家 在投資這個未來那大家用嘴巴講 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8898.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8913.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
民間企業碰到的是我的這個成本會增加那就從公務體系來公務體系你就寫一個 我減一點錢如果民間的到最後你也負責要去做一個統計上市櫃公司你要去統計你 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8915.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8919.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
少子女化的解決當然是很大的一個問題但公務機關我們有沒有可能去做一個研議參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8934.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8946.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
韓國是全世界少子女化最嚴重的現在台灣撲一撲我們變成全世界最明顯少子女化我們就變成第一名公務機關的部分原來有這樣的一個演繹我不知道你的看法是怎麼樣我認同那個委員的看法我們再來跟全區部來協調這個我覺得可以帶頭去做我覺得這個非常好 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8957.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8958.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
我們經常也在評論過勞對於這一次剛好大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
8967.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
8990.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
不得不對於整個少子女化 政府要提出一個因應的對策就是說涉及到工時 或者涉及到整個價的部分公務機關 各個產業會去看看你公務機關的態度政府部門如果帶頭往前的話民間業者這個部分大家去做比較 公務員你為什麼這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
8993.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9002.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
勞動的部分 勞工的部分 也許我們可以來比照制度廠長在台灣我在看 都是這樣在做前進所以這個 我覺得你可以好好來做一些研究啦可以齁你有沒有感覺 韓國瑜在做我們看 我覺得這點好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9010.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9032.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
我們也可以 那個只是惡指 抑制啦抑制那個少子女化加速的這樣子下跌人口要平衡2.1 我們現在已經破億了你說要減下去不可能 但至少不要讓那個少的速度不要讓它一直這樣急速 至少你要讓它止跌嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9033.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9036.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
但是這樣說,我覺得不是一個好方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9045.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9072.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
謝謝剛剛莊委員的質詢我覺得莊委員剛剛提的那個意見然後點出了問題就是我們現在的試駕其實只有七天但是他把家庭照顧駕跟身心調試駕全部都併入試駕以至於就是說實際上這個我們軍工教室看得到是用不到因為他還就是整個併在試駕裡面所以這個部分有沒有可能請人實行那種處理去檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9073.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9096.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
不如就是把人事把這個請假規則7天就直接上調到10天或者12天好這個部分我覺得更能夠讓大家實際上可以用到這兩個假好的那我們就先依照先前的宣告然後休息5分鐘好不好意思賴委員好先休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9433.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9437.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
好 我們繼續開會那接下來我們有請賴氏寶委員發言謝謝主席有請人事 副人事長是 有請副人事長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9459.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9484.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
市長你的回答很重要啦我們主席在推的我覺得他的概念都很好啊現在看到股市這麼一直漲喔現在變成是台灣會變成兩極化就產業來講已經變荷蘭病了你沒有跟AI沾上邊傳統產業你的股市漲了上萬點它都沒有漲啊還跌了勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9488.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9512.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
相對次頻物質產生的我們組織總署還公佈說現在勞工的薪資平均四萬八天價還可以可是呢七成的人領不到四萬八七成的人領不到四萬八這個跟人事總署很有關係所以我覺得軍公教的挑釁真的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9515.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9533.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
這個婦人市場啊你們要趕快有自己的版本你沒有版本那對不起我們就是按照CPI來調CPI超過多少我們就要調問題是問題老實講我跟主席報告喔這個你要小心這裡面有鬼喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9534.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9542.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
像最近不是美伊打仗啊油料一直漲 動漲 電動漲CPS上不去啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9545.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9561.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
所以CPI是可以manipulate 是可以操縱的是可以操縱的 你要讓它還原 政府都補貼 你要把它扣掉政府補貼 它物價說 所以我們的官員 喔 說多少錢經濟部長都講得到聲 補貼啊 沒有影響啊問題是 誰補貼 你我納稅人請補貼啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9570.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9588.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
對不對 還補貼工業的用電大戶產業的用電大戶我們聖斗小明補貼他他喔 拼命賺 股價一直飆我們補貼他電費 然後所以CPI不高台灣CPI現在是不高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9589.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9616.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
我都覺得你第三 我都覺得還可以有討論的空間了那37阿特 因為到不了3 那我們政府很厲害啊你竟然第三 我就想辦法不要拉他到3欸 他這個可以這樣操縱的不要忘了 這個可以操縱的 第一點第二點 我今天真正的要來找你的今天一定要來這裡的一個重點在於我們在財委會不分黨派都支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9618.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9646.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
我們的全部的國營公庫就是銀行台灣銀行、土地銀行、輸出銀行、台土輸跟其他的泛公庫比如兆豐、和庫這裡面差一截有夠大截比如說我們生一胎的補助生一胎的補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9648.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9663.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
台土蘇銀行的員工五千塊兆豐十二萬欸 一樣在銀行工作的啊 差很多啦 大小的差很多十二萬 十二萬VS五千 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9666.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9683.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
12萬VS補券第二個他沒有超額的獎金沒有主管家籍沒有員工的持股信託沒有這個勞保的年金所以我們的國營航庫五個沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9685.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9714.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
然後待遇 所以這個台土書啊就變成范工股的人才訓練所他差不多了就趕快跑了或是到民間領導局了結果才這麼願意喔我剛剛講了 還有還有還有比如說 比如說午餐的補助 它也不一樣都不一樣啦 都不一樣我們的 他們的訴求 公會的訴求很卑微 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9716.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9740.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
執政黨 在野黨的立委 都支持我們要下一個決議 組決議結果你們偉大的人事長 打回票啊喔 權力比財政部長還大 財政部長都背書咧都背書咧 我們為了不要讓純關股的這個員工啊 吃這麼大的虧員工流失了 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9742.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9755.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
財政部都挺身而出 挺穩就挺穩啦人事長跟他開會的時候都說沒有問題啊 一回去都有問題所以你們人事總署很惡劣的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9756.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9779.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
須以為舍啊好不好 都可以可以 這些結果都不可以我們到最後 到目前為止不可以比如我剛剛講最簡單的最簡單的現在不是獎勵生意補助啊連賴清德總統最後講說想辦法一台要十萬啊但是國營事業台圖書的員工只有五千塊你要回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9784.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9803.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
這個生意補助這個部分已經處理了啦現在就是都補到10萬不足10萬都補到10萬那是因為在清德州要10萬啊然後今年變成預算預算同一段還變成那在清德沒有講話以前都沒有10萬耶列在新興裡面列在新興計畫裡面那現在這個部分都今年都已經執行了 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9805.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9811.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
就是委員的建議的那個部分 生意補助這個部分就除了然後其他的 其他財政部報的去我們人總處也都有報到我們有報到行政院去做政策研議當中研議 你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9823.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9826.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
財政部長都同意,這東西古卡古萊巴,這是人家賺的錢他賺的錢是撲一撲照顧老公,你們就拿出偉大的條條空空,這個會違反什麼人事法什麼之類的 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9844.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9867.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
因為公營事業的部分的待遇其實是在行政院其實是授權的就是授權他們自己本身裡面像公股銀行應該是他的最近幾年的調薪幅度其實比公園高啦因為他們不用報到行政院來你要講這個我再跟你講一句台圖書的年總獎金效率獎金最多4到6個月但是何苦9個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9872.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9894.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
合共九個月 跟辦公股差多 這些東西都卡在你們這裡所以這個富人市場 你們要信心好這個我再講一遍 我們這些提案 即便主決議都是部分黨派朝野支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9895.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9923.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
然後朝野支持那就是人事總署引經據典表面因而實施打槍你要去檢討 我現在跟你質詢這個東西好好檢討 我們報的 財政部報的就簡單來講 財政部報的你們不能夠找很多理由打槍我現在講這個話是財政部長講的他說沒辦法啊 賴委員因為人事總署有意見啊就這樣 他答案就這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9924.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9941.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
我會再追這個事情你把列入中國的功課好不好這個是不分黨派一致支持我們的純國家的銀行他的福利待遇要比照翻空箍否則的話人才留不住啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9943.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9966.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
政府報的案子是我們有簽到院裡面去我們有簽到院裡面去你們簽意見是什麼 要同意啊你們簽到意見就不同意了因為那個我們沒有表示反對啊只是要政院決策你們不可能負責任嘛 就這樣子你沒有同意啦東西要尊重財政部啊你怎麼會呼嚕呼嚕轉給行政院這樣要脫了這個叫沒有擔當吼那市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9973.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9988.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
我們再來追這個案子好 謝謝賴委員謝謝夫人市長接下來是蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在那麼接下來我們就有請徐宇珍委員發言謝謝主席 我們請張夫人市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10003.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10021.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
請副人事長委員好副人事長好我現在要先首先來追蹤一件事情就是在今年3月25號的時候我有質詢我們的人事長就是有關因為去年的經濟成長率已經達到8.68% |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10023.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10043.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
所以說照理說今年應該是要幫公務人員加薪大家一起共享這個經濟成長的果實那當時這個我們的人事長也有跟我講說他有預備4月要跟這個卓榮泰院長報告爭取另一次加薪的機會就今年度不是指明年 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10044.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10057.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
然後之後我也有在這個質詢過也有請教過婦人市長你當時是跟我講說6、7月會延擬相關的一個方案喔那因為現在已經進入到6月了我想問一下這個進度是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10059.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10074.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
跟委員報告我上次當然有跟委員報告說六七月我們會把方案提出來那現在進度是我們這個禮拜一這個禮拜一六月八號我們跟教育部有先跟公教團體的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10075.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10098.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
有先做過一個座談會溝通現在也收集他們的意見他們意見收集完以後我們會跟原來收集的相關的財經指標一起做評估那評估之後我們就會提方案提到待遇審議委員會那待遇審議委員會通過以後我們就會把建議的方案提給那這樣的時間預計什麼時候現在都已經六月了今年已經過一半了 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10102.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10118.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
對 我們會抓住這個時程時程是什麼時候就是上次有跟委員報告說6、7月就是7月以前會有定案好 那請7月送給行政院之後呢那通常都要多久的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10119.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10131.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
因為七月就已經要今年度已經可以結束了因為他會要配合總預算的時程所以一定會在這個時間會做決定所以就是在八月之前在總預算提出之前所以這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10135.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10154.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
希望就是說我們這個人事總處這邊如果我想你們也是身為公務人員的一份子啦就是經濟成長要跟這個我們的公務人員共享這我想是大家的共識那也希望說大家能夠積極處理這個進度加快一點幫我們的公務人員爭取另一個調心的機會我們來趕我們來趕好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10156.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10185.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
然後另外就是在請教您就是說我們今天審議的是軍公教人員待遇調整的這個條例的一個修法那我想我們這個也有提出這個相關的版本那尤其是針對這個部分我想請教一下就是人事總書的報告是說已經有把這個軍公教的這個待遇的那個待遇調整的條例草案已經有送交了行政院了是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10187.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10197.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
二元寺什麼時候送膠的我們是113年12月送的113年12月就送了那為什麼現在院會還沒有拍審呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10198.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10217.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
因為行政院要處理的案子當然很多啦但這件事情相對不重要就對了也不是 我們也一直在立法院裡面其實草野的委員都很關心這件事情然後我們也一直有跟行政院在討論這件事那我想我們會盡快把這個案子送過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10221.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10247.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
盡快送過來已經從113年12月到現在囉這已經不是盡快了尤其是現在這種AI時代喔這已經是落後非常久了那表示說所以是行政院認為這不重要所以不把他排入院會還是卓榮泰院認為這不重要這個案子就是很重要可以評估的比較審慎那我們最近也有你們應該是在送草案之前就已經評估非常久了嘛找了非常多的團體一起大家共同來研議嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10249.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10257.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
收集相關的各國的制度所以都已經送行政院那麼久了我們會很快把這個案子送過來我們盡快行政院現在院會都還沒排進去吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10269.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10286.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我覺得我們人事總署要積極一點 既然草野都有這個共識人事總署也都已經提出版本 應該要把這個我們的這個軍工教育人員待遇能夠法制化我想這是大家共同的想法 那所以說人事總署這邊應該是要積極的來去處理好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10290.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10309.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
好 那另外就想請教你 除了這個要法制化之外呢我們也覺得說 我們現在的這個薪資的待遇調整應該是要決策公開透明化所以呢 我們認為就是過去因為都是行政院在密室協商 就行政院自己決定要加薪或不加薪 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10310.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10330.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
現在我們有提出的版本裡面有強制規定待遇審議委員會必須要納入現職的軍公教的代表請問一下目前你們送立法院的版本裡面有沒有提到這個部分跟委員報告 目前我們送行政院代表有公教的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10331.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10350.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
有公教代表那軍人的部分是?軍人的部分其實我早上有做過說明因為軍人他是基於他工作的特性國安的考量一般國家也不會把軍人放在待遇協商的範圍但是我們我們其實是有請國防部來代表軍人那但是問題是你現在公教的代表的比例是幾位?四位那你的成員是幾位? |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10362.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10369.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
成員目前是規劃21位好 21位然後公交代表就4位也就是大概只有五分之一而已對啊 那等於說真正的基層代表代表公交人員的才4位也就是有五分之一那這樣的話他們的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10379.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10398.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
跟他們所要表達的要求其實在整個審議委員會裡面可能根本完全起不了什麼作用啊就變成說你們只是安排有公教基層的公教在裡面可是事實上完全沒有辦法影響而這又關他們最重要的權益他們才是當事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10399.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10412.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
那所以這個部分呢我覺得應該是這個比例的部分應該是要調整那因為其實翁小林委員的版本裡面就有特別提到了就是軍公教各三位嘛至少九位那大概比例就是三分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10414.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10440.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
那針對這個部分是不是可能調整到三分之一呢這個院版送過來以後我想這個草野的委員應該會很有智慧的副院長您自己您覺得呢站在你的立場其實我們現在很多的相關的審議委員會幾乎都是把這個基層的代表大概都有三分之一就像之前我們說海保法後來也把我們的漁民代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10442.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10462.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
這個大概占了三分之一左右我想這是最基本的委員報告就是早上其實也有其他委員有在詢問這個問題因為這個待遇調整現在就是各國的制度上面因為都是這個當事的團體就是他有建議或者是表達意見的這個機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10465.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10491.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那最後應該是涉及整個國家的這個資源的分配這個當然我們知道 但是就是三分之一我現在也不是說過半就三分之一來去表達他們的意見這應該不為過吧那針對這個部分的話 委員的意見我們待會拿回去參考好 那另外的話也希望說你們能夠尊重審議的結果啦因為現在看起來大家都是行政院決定嘛那既然你有一個審議委員會應該要尊重委員會的一個權益嘛 是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10493.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10511.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
委員報告大家都擔心說是不是一人決策其實這個案子都不會是一人決策因為整個自助的規劃都會有相關的指標那請問一下如果未來這個審議委員會做成待遇調整的建議那行政院是不是會尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10514.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10532.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我們以現行的運作來講按照過去大部分的時間都是會尊重的就是會尊重那如果說行政院假設啦 不同意的話有沒有什麼具體的條件還是說有什麼理由會再重新那個召開審議會還是沒有就是照行政院說的算目前現有的制度化機制是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10538.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10563.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
對 那就是我剛剛講的這個問題嘛我們還是希望要尊重審議的結果既然你開了一個審議委員會給行政院那行政院就應該要尊重否則就不用開這個審議委員會啦因為它代表的是 你剛剛講的嘛21位代表的是各界的不管是專家 學者 基層代表 公務公家機關都已經有這樣子的一個建議了所以是不是應該是要尊重審議的結果公務員 公務員報告就是現行運作的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10564.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10593.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
行政院都是尊重委員會的建議所以會尊重審議的結果然後最後就是我想請教一下就是說我們現在這個有提出的版本就是希望是明定消費者物價指數CPI累積成長達3%的時候或者是每四年要定期調整然後條幅也不得低於通膨率的二分之一那請問你們現在送行政院的版本裡面目前的這個朝向的這個調整的方向是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10595.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10620.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
我跟委員報告 行政院還沒有送過來的最後定稿但是我們人總署的我剛剛一開始報告的時候其實也有講這個部分我們都往那邊去調文去做考量所以你是說CPI達3%然後每四年定期檢討也有對 年輕人我們可能還更我們都有規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10620.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10624.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
你們都有規劃那條幅不得低於通膨率的二分之一這個也都有規劃因為我剛剛有報告其實就是這是一個專業的委員會的評估然後也有相關明確的指標在進行那因為總的國家資源的負責分配還是這個主政者還是要去負最後的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10647.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10664.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
所以這個部分我們希望說那個盡快的也希望人事總署能夠要求就是請行政院因為立法院現在已經今天我們現在已經這個特別針對這個部分有排審了那也希望說行政院趕快把院板送進來我們在審查的過程中才能把院板納入否則的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10664.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10671.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
我們這樣審一審原本要來不及進來的話我們可能就沒有辦法把你們的版本列入希望能夠盡快最後再請教一個問題就是說針對職場霸凌的部分從109年的12件大幅增加到114年的132件5年成長了10倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10686.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10708.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
這五年間成長了十倍究竟是公務機關霸凌的問題越來越嚴重還是人事總署過去的預防機制根本沒有發揮作用那人事總署你們要怎麼解讀這個現象委員報告這問題大家都很重視那在去年那個保障法修法之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10710.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10727.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
就是我們整個國家的法制對不管是職場霸凌的定義都沒有一個作用法的明確的規範然後主管機關到底是誰都還沒有明確所以在那個過渡期其實人種措施有 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10729.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10745.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
這個努力的先做一個指引讓各機關可以執行然後在去年大家努力的去推展這一塊資產霸凌的房子也修了保障法也修了安慰辦法那安慰辦法是去年7月1號就實施然後保障法是今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10745.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10774.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
可是監察院有調查就是多起的霸凌案件發現部分的人事單位不但沒有協助被害人甚至出現勸退的情形要求當事人自行檢討請問這是怎麼一回事我覺得這個可能有點太簡化了我覺得絕大多數的人事同仁其實都很兢兢業業在處理如果委員有聽到地方基層的聲音應該也知道我們人事同仁處理這個領域的工作其實也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10774.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10790.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
因為罷免的這個案件其實越來越多所以我們還是希望就是除了你們這個事後調查懲處之外我們還是希望要建立一個預警的一個機制然後主動的介入制度然後就像你剛剛講的我們可能有一些預警的然後一些什麼宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10791.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10807.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
未來我覺得會更好因為這個今年這個已經制度已經完備化了那主管機關也確定是保訊會然後現在處理的方式就是在調查小組其實要有二分之一的外聘委員就是外部介入的力量已經變大 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10808.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10835.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
然後他的安慰委員會也要至少三分之一外聘委員那像調查小組如果他是機關首長他沒有上級的部分其實外聘委員是要達到三分之二然後另外保訓會他也可以做外部的抽查希望這個部分要確實的落實讓我們的這些公務人員不要受到這種霸凌之苦這個我們會努力去跟保訓會協作好 謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10840.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10849.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
好 謝謝徐宇珍委員那接下來審發會委員審發會委員審發會委員不在那麼我們有請范雲委員質詢謝謝昭緯那有請張秋元副人事長好 有請副人事長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10867.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10876.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
夫人市長您好我想請問您過去幾年內軍公教調薪的次數跟幅度是多少您可以簡單告訴我們嗎過去幾年內對過去10年內好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10884.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10888.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
過去十年內我們從107條3% 111條4% 113條4% 114條3%那如果累進的話應該是名目上是14% 累進的話應該會到14.7% |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10903.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10910.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
14.7%是過去這樣算是十年內嗎 還是八年內那因為這個是民進黨執政的這幾年內嘛調了14.7%照這樣講對不對那之前馬總統執政那八年調了幾%可以告訴大家嗎就是只有100年的時候調過3% |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10928.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10934.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
所以只有調過3%那我想你講話這個都要有數據啦就馬總統執政那8年就是為軍公教是公教還是軍公教 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10940.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10960.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
軍公教軍公教就是3%的調薪那民進黨執政的這10年調了14點幾%這樣講沒錯吧是所以我想其實民進黨政府過去大家都好像覺得他對軍公教不好可是從調薪這件事情上是非常的正面這樣沒錯吧我們其實是積極在處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10964.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10975.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
好有積極在處理那肯定你們那可以依照目前的做法對不對就是是誰在決定有哪些機制有誰參與可以告訴大家嗎目前就是有我們有一個這個待遇調整的這個審議委員會那他的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10990.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11000.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
就是他的成員 包括軍公教的主管 軍公教勞工的主管還有國發會 還有財主 還有地方政府 還有學者專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11004.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11030.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
所以目前有學者專家 有地方政府代表然後有軍公教的這些單位的主管機關比如說國防部 全區部 教育部然後也有學者專家幾人所以其實目前有一個機制那您覺得這是我們看到這個設置要點的您覺得現行的審議委員會的組成到底代表性足不足夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11032.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11060.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
我們現在在推法治化的過程裡面我們是我們也認為可以把這個公教團體的代表基層代表可以納進來委員會裡面所以你們支持可以納入軍公教的基層代表我們是朝這個方向來處理因為目前比較是主管機關譬如說國防部教育部這是主管機關那比較沒有就是基層的代表所以你們同意對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11060.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11084.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
我們的草案是往這個方向規劃的確是教育部代表跟教師代表基層教師公會的意見很可能是有衝突的向蔣沒錯所以我其實也肯定你們教育部還是教育部如果以我以前在教育部服務我們在教育現場其實是一體的所以我們會都希望整個領域好了解啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11085 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11104.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
那但是因為我們長期在監督教育部然後也為教師爭取薪資的提升因為全球其實教師都遇到這個問題教育部如果比較難過的時候應該是資源在爭取的時候因為教育部他畢竟要尊重你們人種的意見嘛我們人種其實也很努力所以我也幫教育部跟你們人種爭取我們教師要有增加力量因為現在的年輕世代跟數位時代 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11108.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11132.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
真的比較難就是大家的青少年主體性越來越高教師的負擔真的增高了所以薪水增加跟人數要增加這個部分都是我們爭取的所以我們知道教育部相對來講他必須要體恤你們的看法有上次委員詢問的我美德光跟教育部一起處理其實我們原本對他們學校是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11133.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11154.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
那我想合理來講的話就是不管是立委或者是基層教師公會當然可以就是爭取就是基層公務員跟教師的權益更大聲啦這樣講沒錯啊所以我其實是要肯定你們啦我看你們的工商時報人總有講到會議要納入基層代表是 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11154.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11169.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
我覺得這是一個很好的表示雖然民進黨執政這些年為軍公教調薪14點多%遠高於前面的國民黨執政那8年但是我覺得就是都是可以越改善越好的我們希望越來越好 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11170.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11195.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
所以肯定人種回應就是說會議將納入基層代表我現在想要請你們專業表達意見納入基層代表到底是怎麼個納入法我研究了一下民眾黨團的版本跟我們翁小玲召委的版本這裡面都有民眾黨版本是公務人員代表一人教師代表一人可是沒有軍人代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11195.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11216.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
那翁曉林委員的版本是人數更多因為他是25人民眾黨版19人所以他是三個公務員代表三個教師代表軍人代表三人那您覺得應該要怎麼樣納入基層的方式更理想呢因為剛剛聽起來您覺得軍人不適合放在裡面嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11216.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11236.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我們目前的意見是這樣因為我們也看了其他國家因為軍人他的身份特性比較特別他是保衛國家的有一個比較高強度我們當然軍人聲譽也要放在裡面所以現在目前是規劃國防部來代表以過去的調心 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11238.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11262.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
軍人我們絕對會優先去考量他對 以我們看到的是這樣子就是絕對不會也不能夠就是不管朝野其實對這一塊其實都很關心所以你們認為軍人是分開處理比較好對 我們讓國防部來代表軍人那就人數上民眾黨版這個是各一人翁曉琳委員的版本各三人您有沒有覺得哪一種比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11264.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11290.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
我想我們尊重各委員的提案到時候勤政院版進來以後可以大家一起討論了解 因為我們的了解就是教師代表其實就好幾個不同的工會 不同的團體那這部分你們有正在研商中那我想請問你 因為剛剛講的是那個委員會那薪資調整的依據就是民眾黨版的沒有寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11291.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11313.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
他是說要參考這些勞動生產力勞工平均薪資國家經濟狀況然後等等然後可是翁曉琳委員的版本比較有一點相對比較硬性的指標譬如飄增比率不得低於消費者物價指數累積成長率之二分之一我是覺得還好啦可能還有人覺得就是說這樣到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11313.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11332.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
主不足夠那他有提到消費者物價指數打3%的時候一定要給予調整那我請助理幫我找出最低工資法因為我們有一個最低工資法是有一個機制的來做一個比較那依照人種的專業見解你覺得怎麼樣的做法更妥適呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11333.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11362.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
就這個指數的部分怎麼個條法應該怎麼參考是翁曉林委員辦還是民眾黨辦還是最低工資法這邊參酌的這個指數跟委員報告其實目前在台灣我們參考的指數這個範圍是大的當然是在台灣我們大概會比較聚焦在消費者的物價指數的就是實質購買力的部分比較受 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11363.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11383.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
比較受到一些討論關注我們也參考了這個GDP經濟成長率也會參考美人的平均國民所得然後也會民間企業的薪資水準然後還有我們的財政狀況做一個綜合性的考量那我覺得這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11384.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11412.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
指標的部分因為各國的指標也不太一樣譬如說剛剛張艾亞林委員其實也有提就是在日本其實他是用民間薪資因為日本大概跟民間的對接是比較密的然後在台灣其實我們過去的討論都一直會比較專注在實質購買率上面其實這些指標其實都有可能是好的指標我們院板進來以後大家一起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11413.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11439.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
那我想看起來你們還就是這部分有你們的想法但是目前還沒辦法揭露那另外有一個關鍵的部分也想請問您因為到底這個審議委員會說了算還是行政院有沒有一個商議權民眾黨團的版本我看到的是還有一個最後最終決定是立法院審查那如果行政院不核定的時候他又是再回去開審議會 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11441.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11463.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
那國民黨團的翁曉林委員的版本是行政院不得調整變更除非國家有財政重大困難那這部分差異很大因為民眾黨團的版本還要來立法院最後審查那翁曉林委員的版本幾乎是這個審議委員會說了算那您認為應該要怎麼處理比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11466.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11483.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
跟委員報告我們都尊重各委員的提案那在院版的部分我早上提了也收集了很多其他國家的他們的做法像美日韓這幾個比較在國際上比較被討論的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11484.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11503.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
美日韓都是有一個專責的機構他會負責這些相關的指標的一些這個收集跟評估然後在提出之前也會讓這個公教團體有他表達意見的機會最後在 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11507.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11526.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
但是最後的這個決策權因為主政的部門其實他本來就是受全民的附託他必須要對國家總資源的分配他必須要負責這個責任所以現在先進國家也都是到最後必須要由主政者去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11526.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11536.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
所以你說先進民主國家是會尤其政治負責像美國有時候條性的監議也會請總統去決定日本也會給國會跟內閣去做監議有些國家是給行政權決定有些國家是國會跟內閣是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11545.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11564.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
因為內閣制的內閣就是國會我們國家其實也會到國會只是這個階段不同就是在這個決策要不要調新之前是在行政院做決定行政院決定以後他就必須要並總預算編入總預算送到國會來 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11566.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11570.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
國會通過以後送給總統公佈那這樣的條件案才會生效了其實我們也是要到國會我自己是看了覺得民眾黨團的版本會有一個迴旋 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11582.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11602.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
因為他是說如果行政院不核定的時候再開審議會那就沒有再寫後面怎麼樣了有可能會陷入一個無止境的迴旋所以我覺得這個設計非常的重要那請問任總你們現在這個草案預計的時程是什麼因為我看到說你們已經正在送行政院的院會是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11604.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11616.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
對這個朝野委員的對這個案子的關心我們有跟行政報告行政也很慎重在討論這個那我們希望盡快送過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11617.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11641.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
那我是相信行政院的版本不會虧待軍公教啦因為從你們的行為過去就是14%的薪資的漲幅那當然就是說如果能夠制度化從你們目前的行政命令進一步法制化我相信你們就是說也會謹慎考慮那我本來是要請你參著民主國家的公務員調心公式跟決策機制那您剛說你們已經在參考美日韓嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11642.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11647.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
那美日韓是不是可以至少就給我們一個書面報告好嗎盡快 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11649.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11678.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
多久之內可以給我們因為我想我們到時候委員會審議的時候一個月好不好一個月那盡快因為你們已經研究了可不可以兩個禮拜啊我擔心那個翁委員這邊會不會速審啊我是希望可以等你們行政院的版本我們是希望翁委員這邊可以等我們行政院的版本因為我看到民眾版本我相信這個設計等一下萬一等一下進步二讀快速選會的話這個可能會造成就是無法預測的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11680.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11705.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
你們的書面資料可以給我們嗎?兩週可以嗎?早一點給我們,讓大家謹慎考慮因為我是從你們的行為相信條新的部分不會虧待軍公教那但事均說,既然要討論這個版本謹慎好好的設計非常的重要,好不好?好那預計期程現在沒辦法告訴我們是不是?我們在努力,我們已經就密集在討論這個議題好,謝謝好,謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11710.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11736.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
好 謝謝范雲委員不過我想這個軍公教人員待遇調整法案是眾所矚目軍公教關係然後很多朝野委員也都非常關心我希望就是人事行政總署還是要督促行政院進換要題我們這個不可能再等了之前就等你們兩年了接下來不可能說再等你們兩年了大概這個會期也許下個會期的話一定會審好 那接下來再請議員之委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11751.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11753.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
麻煩請那個副人事長請副時事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11761.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11783.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
我們現在討論軍公教育加薪除了給軍公教育一定的尊重之外其實是要解決全台公務人員缺額率逐漸創新高的問題現在數據是缺額逐漸是創新高報考人數也變少了離職跟離退同步攀升而且都會區缺口最嚴重現在台北市的缺額已經到20%這個嚴重狀況你應該知道吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11786.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11801.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
跟委員報告台北市那個可能就是美女報點有一點偏誤因為他們是他最大的問題應該是在勢力聯誼他雖然有正式的原則他為了經營的關係因為我要問的重點在後面但是公務人員變就是缺額變多是事實是一個趨勢這個是不容否認所以我不太懂說前一個范雲委員去懲罰總統時代加薪多少幹嘛馬總統時代公務人員有離職潮那麼高嗎有缺額這麼多嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11816.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11835.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
沒有嘛 那時候公務員鐵半碗欸 大家擠得進欸大家都搶著要報效國家 搶著然後軍公教那時候待遇也比較好嘛跟委員報告就是跟經濟情況有很大的關係對嘛 所以跟經濟情況就有關係所以兩個年代就不所以副委員長你就講對 那你剛剛就不敢講啊你就不敢講說馬總統那時候經濟狀況沒有差到那麼大啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11841.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11868.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
然後所以去扯這個我真的覺得有時候去脈絡化的討論喔在這邊帶風向好像民進黨做得比較好啊什麼馬總統對軍工業比較差啊這種我真的有時候真的聽不太下去啦我們大家這就事論是要解決問題嘛好那這個我理想也要解決問題對啦那副人事長您自己也常常在臉書發表文章啦有一篇文章我也看了你說明年政府肯定會調薪啦只是你那個不是我的臉書發表員不是你的臉書是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11871.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11884.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
那這是這不是我不是 這另外一位啦另外一位 對不起是另外一位那這一個人 施能傑對不起他不是你 對不起他講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11887.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11907.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
前面他是在講他不支持定額調薪他不是定額調薪他是支持按照比例調薪原因是因為如果按照如果定額調薪的話那高薪的跟低薪的最後的差距會越來越小他認為責任責任的重點應該是說越高薪的負越大的責任這就是他的看法可是他下面講了一個他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11908.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11930.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
主張定額調薪論點總是拿第一跟第二值月薪低為理由認為和最低工資差距只有幾千塊然後他講說這個解決這個方案應該是其他什麼意思呢就是我們先不去炒說到底要定額調薪還是按照比例調薪但是大家都可以有共識的就是值等比較低的他的薪水確實是很低 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11930.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11955.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
因為我也有跟很多就是很基層的他做很久了十幾二十年了薪水都加一點點每次都是按照那個比例加薪加到後來他的五感他說他按照比例加薪有時候不如不加那是某一個人的特定看法也不見得代表全部啦為什麼呢因為通常這樣子加的結果呢通膨就會比較嚴重他買便當的錢會變高有時候他加薪的一點點呢其實抵不上通膨的速度 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11956.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11961.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
這個是某一位某一部分的人的心聲我是給你參考所以我覺得現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11962.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11986.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
我們先不去炒說到底要按照比例調薪還是定額調薪但是針對很基層的人他們的薪水的樓地板把它提高我覺得是有必要的那我特別去看的就是公務人員工友跟技工的薪水像公務人員現在最低薪資的三萬四這就按照富人市長所講的在跟業界是沒有競爭力的啦那更不要講工友現在是三萬二啦技工是三萬三這樣的薪水啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11987.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12014.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
你要請到人來其實真的非常困難你到公部門的責任壓力啊受的法規的約束規範都是比較嚴格的所以我在想你們可不可以針對樓地板的部分至少針對樓地板的部分做一個定額的調薪嘛比如說怎麼樣把它拉到跟這個業界至少差不多的水準甚至稍微有點誘因讓大家願意進來我不知道這個人事總署有沒有做這樣的規劃有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12016.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12030.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
跟委員報告這一段期間我們都一直在蒐集各界的意見當然各種意見都有了就是包括委員剛才講的到底是怎麼調調多少其實大家都有很多針對問題回答我們會 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12034.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12044.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
針對問題回答所有的我們都會去考慮針對問題回答我的問題是什麼問題是說基層的部分要不要把它對所以我就針對我這個問題針對這個問題回答就是以我們主管機關立場我們提方案的時候我們會去考慮你說考慮什麼但是我們還要通過你不要講一個那麼籠統什麼什麼方案都可以我現在的問題是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12058.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12072.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
我的問題是什麼你現在就是說希望我花那麼多時間跟你陳述這個事情公有這個低階的公務員的這個薪水能夠把他提高一點嘛樓地板提高對 那針對這件事情您的看法是什麼對 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12073.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12099.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
我們會去努力啦你們會去努力那大概什麼時候會有方案出來我們的方案我們之前大概有報告過我們這個是要搭配總預算一定要提出來搭配總預算的期程所以上次我在委員會有報告所以針對就是七一層的公務人員的樓地板提高這個方案什麼時候會提出來要搭配總預算所以大概是什麼時候所以大概是什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12100.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12108.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
我們就希望7月以前可以送到7月以前針對這個樓地板提高的這個方案我們會通案對不要講通案我現在沒有講通案我說針對樓地板提高這個方案你是說7月會提出來嗎是不是我們是整個方案會去考慮不會單獨一個不是啦那你就在呼嚨我嘛我再問問你答B |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12120.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12128.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
那副委員市長你覺得應不應該樓地板提高你覺得應不應該樓地板提高你覺得應不應該樓地板提高你樓地板提高你覺得應不應該樓地板提高這個我不反對我不反對你覺得應不應該上次我其實已經你覺得應不應該我已經報告過了照顧基層也是你覺得應不應該照顧基層是應該的你覺得應該照顧基層所以要做嘛那什麼時辰什麼時辰的話是七月嘛OK好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12149.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12165.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
接下來我們再來看還有一個跟公務人員福利也比較有關的就是所謂的育嬰留職停薪現在因為公務人員育嬰留職停薪他的勤領的津貼是按照本縫乘以0.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12166.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12187.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
但是因為很多公務員他們的其實所有的薪資是本奉加上加給嘛所以才是他真正每個月的薪資但本奉通常比較不是不是完成的薪資嘛那你如果用本奉去乘0.8會造成一個狀況就是他們勤領的預因留職停薪的津貼比勞保還要低啦比一般勞保還要低啦那這個部分人事總署有發現嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12190.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12207.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
這個問題就是因為現在的育嬰留子今天不管是公園老公其實都是在保險裡面去處理公保老闆去處理那公保老闆處理因為他的財務是自主所以他都是用他的保縫 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12208.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12222.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
去當然嘛但是這個制度是政府訂的嘛委員的意見我們可以這是政府訂的這是你知道你自己在講什麼嗎這個制度是政府訂的當然是按照保險但是這個制度是政府訂的我現在是指出這個問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12224.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12250.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
就是現在公務人員的公務人員在請育嬰停職津貼他所請領的是比一般勞工還有低因為他本分低於最低薪資嘛而且這人不少啊去年我問了大概五千個公務人員去請育嬰留職津貼然後大概有兩成的人一千的人他領的錢是比最低薪資能夠領到的育嬰留職津貼的津貼還要少嘛跟委員跟委員報告其實這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12254.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12279.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
這個主管機關全局部其實之前就有在考慮這個問題他們會在這個去考慮因為你是人總人總其實也是就管所有公務人員的嗎我們跟考試院我們跟考試院都是協作很多疊床架屋的狀況我們就不去講了啦但是如果就是對啦這個部分你們去注意大概什麼時候會提出一個方案出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12286.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12309.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
應該是在這個年度內就會提啦這個年度就是這個年度就會提因為那是法案嘛他要有法案他要送到考試院會去然後再來我跟您請教一下齁這個有關於身心調適加我請教育部的人士一起上來好不好教育部的人士一起上來齁身心現在這個政府啊之前很高調的宣布啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12310.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12334.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
所以為了要推動健康台灣所以呢要給公務人員包括老師在內要有三天的身心調適假就是讓大家可以保持良好的身心狀態而且感覺上很體恤公務人員很體恤老師那這裡面有幾個問題第一個我問一下富仁市長身心調適假目前實施以來請的人多不多我看的數字是 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12339.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12366.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
也還蠻多的現在中央跟地方我們統計到四月底因為他那個每個的這個採集系統是各自不一樣他們會有個定期的時間會到給我們現在是有申請的是有兩萬九千六百七十三人次大概佔多少比例比例我是倒是沒去算但是這個比例應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12368.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12394.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
也不算低啦不算低對不算低所以你自己覺得生性調適價的成果好嗎現在看起來是有一些效果因為總的時數也達到26萬多小時如果生性調適價有人請的話那我就舉出幾個我覺得不合理的地方第一個你的生性調適價是併入7天市價計算對不對換言之在人事總署的觀念裡面生性調適價就是有市對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12396.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12411.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
你們的價別分並價 幣價 市價 公價嘛結果你認為身心條市價你有市 所以你請身心條市價他是並入市價計算他不是獨立的價別所以換言之你有7天的免就是不用薪資的市價他請的身心條市價 那個7天 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12414.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12420.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
就是不扣薪的市價就少了三天跟葉委員報告他其實莊瑞雄莊昭維也有提同樣的問題啦有提同樣的問題你特別提到莊瑞雄幹嘛剛剛有 他剛剛有講剛剛他們有提問所以我已經有請人是總長期望的朋友現在是我在質詢啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12433.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12448.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我會說我這個會移併我不知道他講什麼啊因為我們剛剛在忙別的事啊就是生意調適價這個什麼樣啊生意調適價怎麼樣啊你說針對我的問題回答就好了所以是現在是怎麼樣莊惠琼講我沒有聽啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12449.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12464.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
一樣啦 就是一樣的問題什麼問題啊病入釋迦這個問題所以是外加三天是不是他也認為這個可以再放寬那這個部分我們就一併跟全局部來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12466.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12488.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
因為不好意思啦 因為這是我的執勻時間我是外委員會的所以其他你們的委員會在問什麼我並沒有聽所以他講什麼我不知道所以我今天針對我的問題我覺得七天試駕你是含三天而且你把身心調適駕是病毒試駕你感覺是有人請身心調適駕代表他有事 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12489.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12505.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
可是你們當初提說要提這個身心調適之下說健康台灣是為了身心健康結果你把他定位在有事你有事很奇怪我覺得第一個這個很奇怪第二個第二就是外加的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12505.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12511.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
委員要不要給我一點時間說明我其實可以跟委員做說明當初這個身心調適駕並試駕其實有很多各種不同的聲音在考慮也有一部分人認為說你如果給他這個太明顯的標籤話會讓同仁不敢申請不是一樣嗎你現在就鼓勵大家去請身心調適駕然後你還說我怕標籤話所以你就偷偷默默請就好你只要請試駕不要請身心調適駕 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12536.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12545.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
那所以最後的大概建議是說先併入試駕然後就是不需要提旅遊然後身心調適下也不會影響到烤雞等等的其實他還是有差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12549.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12570.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
還是有差別對對對他不會已經講要考進去請試駕考進去所以有兩個問題嘛第一個我覺得不應該叫試駕啦身心調適駕不應該叫試駕啦我覺得啦因為你主要是要大家調適身心嘛這是第一個層次的問題第二個層次的問題才是說你外加要加幾天嘛他還是叫身心調適駕他叫身心調適駕但是是外加的你等於多給他三天駕 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12571.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12582.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
那這個三天假是不是三天是不是三天然後是不是外加這是第二個層次的問題這是我提出來的好不好然後然後教育部教育部我跟您請教一下這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12585.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12610.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
身心調試這樣 一樣在公務人員角度是希望公務人員維持身心健康 放鬆心情然後讓他可以這個工作上面或是在各方面可以更順利在職場 在教師的現場也是一樣但是其實你有沒有發現現在其實老師壓力非常大我跟非常多老師聊天 都跟我反應他們都帶著熱忱到教育現場裡面去很多老師現在都在看身心科 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12611.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12636.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
但他看身心科絕對不是你放個三天身心調適這樣就可以解決這個問題了嘛所以你們有沒有特別去了解一下背後真正原因是什麼有嗎這才是你要去解決的我就舉一個大家都知道前一段時間很不幸就是高雄有一個老師選擇用方式結束他的生命大家都覺得非常的難過教育現場已經失序了然後最近又有一個高雄一個網紅的老師忽然間問說學校最高有幾層樓 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12637.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12663.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
然後被大家勸去送醫這個我不知道教育部知不知道情況是逐漸在惡化當中這不是靠三天身心調試假就可以解決的然後發生這樣的不幸事件的時候教育部是怎麼叫老師們去維持身心健康呢怎麼解決教師情緒呢去上自殺防治研習就叫他老師去唱研習老師更生氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12665.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12667.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
因為上研習還要額外排自己的時間上這個研習有用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12669.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12695.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
你不如讓他好好休息所以很多老師就講你看一年的研習那麼多時間環境教育 交通安全 特殊教育又防治傷 情緒教育又一大堆只要好像注意到什麼就叫老師去做研習重視交通安全就叫老師去研習重視情緒教育又老師又要去研習一直去研習研習有用研習如果有用的話現在這個狀況不會這麼嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12697.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12705.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
所以真的請教育部我覺得任總也要負起責任教師也是公務人員吧應該任總也管得到吧好 是 麻煩那個葉委員這個禁訴是不是可以你們真的請教育部你們去針對真的會造成老師身心 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12722.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12737.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
會有壓力的那個部分去 去檢討而不是 這 民進黨政府都很會宣傳啊啊 身心調出價好棒啊這樣子啊 就可以促進健康台灣的有那麼容易嗎如果那麼容易的話會造成這些狀況嗎下一步 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12739.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12767.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
跟委員報告教育部其實一直都很重視我們教師的一個職場環境那也做了很多的努力啦那我相信委員在教委在教委委員會裡面應該都有看到教育部的努力我是沒看到很努力啦不要在這邊內宣啦要講講不完的啦如果教育部那麼努力的話老師都不會這麼無力了啦我現在發現教育部的問題就是自我感覺良好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12771.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12788.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
好謝謝葉委員的質詢那接下來就是我們現在所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢詢答結束那委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料均以或者是以書面答覆者就是請相關機關盡速送交個別委員以及本會 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12789.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12815.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
那麼蔡其昌委員、審發會委員、傅坤祺委員都有提書面質詢就列入記錄刊登公報並且請相關機關要以書面答覆好 那本日的會議就進行到此那議程所列的討論事項就做如下的決議我們就另定期繼續審查好 那明天上午九點鐘我們就繼續開會好 現在休息 謝謝大家好 謝謝夫人市長還有列席的官員們 |