| IVOD_ID |
17499 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17499 |
| 日期 |
2026-06-08 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
公聽會-2026060267 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
審查「行政院函送中央選舉委員會委員提名名單，沈淑妃為委員並為副主任委員，蔡維哲及黃謀信均為委員，請同意案」公聽會 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
公聽會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第5會期內政、司法及法制兩委員會公聽會（事由：審查「行政院函送中央選舉委員會委員提名名單，沈淑妃為委員並為副主任委員，蔡維哲及黃謀信均為委員，請同意案」公聽會） |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-06-08T08:35:43+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-06-08T10:22:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
01:46:17 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea606d65a768f7595516ccf1aef4ae3eba807a15c9b876171528f59b7061a254fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-06-08T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期內政、司法及法制兩委員會公聽會（事由：審查「行政院函送中央選舉委員會委員提名名單，沈淑妃為委員並為副主任委員，蔡維哲及黃謀信均為委員，請同意案」公聽會） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:35:43 - 10:22:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
22.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
25.063 |
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谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
52.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
53.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
581.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
610.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
969.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
978.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
谢谢观看 欢迎订阅 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1241.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1241.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1333.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1336.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
谢谢观看,下次见! |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1518.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1536.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
各位貴賓晚安 早安歡迎參加這次的公聽會首先說明立法院院會第十一屆第五會期第九次會議報告交付內政司法法制兩委員會審查行政院含送中央選舉委員會委員提名名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1537.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1565.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
沈淑菲委員並為副主任委員蔡維哲及黃謀信軍委委員請同意案因此依據立法院職權行使法第29條規定今天舉辦公聽會各位專家學者都學養俱佳相信一定能夠為本院委員提供非常寶貴的意見我們會詳實記錄今天各位的高見以供審查本案參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1566.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1594.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
首先介紹專家學者出席委員及政府代表我們依序我們先介紹掌櫃美教授姚孟昌教授陳恩明律師傅欣怡律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1598.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1619.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
謝振裕教授吳景青教授另外我們介紹今天列席的官員有中選會主任秘書謝美玲主秘還有人事室主任江美芳主任還有行政院人事行政總處培訓考用處專門委員張聰根專委謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1628.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1654.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
好 以下就今天公聽會的程序先進行說明學者專家一出席簽到發言順序每位發言時間為八分鐘發言台正前方的燈號是倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘會響鈴一次發言時間結束則會響鈴兩次第一輪發言結束後如果有需要補充說明再進行第二輪的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1656.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1676.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
本院委員如果有要發言請到主席台登記與兩位專家學者發言後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言時間五分鐘現在請專家學者進行發言我們依照順序我們先請蔣貴美教授謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1687.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1714.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
主席 在場的貴賓大家好因為好像只有8分鐘 少了4秒了我就直接切入重點我覺得中選會的委員的提名最後的決定在立法院同意與否我們以學者的角色只適合談所謂的學術上或者是實務上的一些觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1716.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1732.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
第一個要提的是關於114年5月所謂的中選會當時用非重大政策的創制或覆決把立法院的所謂反Face公投給否決掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1733.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1759.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那因為時間很近所以呢到目前為止我們當然會擔心這個將來的中選會在辦理選舉事務的時候他的所謂的決策空間到底會不會跨越他所謂的超然獨立的角色所以我想在這邊提的第一點就是說我們必須正視過去大法官歷次所做的解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1760.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1779.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
也就是說中選會的決策它是辦理選務而不是來實質審查嚴論自由的界限我記得過去當反對黨在民國八十年以前甚至七十六年解嚴之前當時曾經爭議過選舉公報上可不可以印台灣獨立 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1783.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1792.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那實際上當時是可以的 為什麼因為選委會當時的答覆是他不介入實質審查那所以呼應我們憲法過去釋憲出來的644號、445號等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1800.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1819.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這個相得益彰也就是說除非你達到民選要即刻的危險否則任何機關是不能剝奪人民的表意自由的空間所以這個一定要很清楚的釐清不過在三個候選人的這個被提名人的答覆裡面並沒有談到這個觀點我常常覺得我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1823.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1840.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
看很多資料看得很辛苦但是實際上很多重要的觀念不需要太多只要幾行字就可以解決那三者是不能解決問題的那第二個要提到的是這個當中有一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1842.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1855.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這個蔡姓的被提名人在他的這個答覆裡面他有談到說要限制公投數量公投案件的數量我覺得這個岐岐不可因為中選會沒有這個權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1857.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1881.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
也就是說公投當然也是讓我們非常疑惑的因為這一次事實上三位都是法律人真正懂選舉本質民主國的所謂政治基本有理的看不出有哪一位當然我們現在是法律治國所有的部會所在法律人一大堆但是國家還有更好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1882.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1908.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所以我覺得中選會的業務必須非常清楚他所扮演的角色跟超然獨立而不隨便介入所謂的實質上的審查所以要限制蔡平民所提到的要限制公投案件數以免將來我們合併大選跟公投一起辦的時候怕秩序混亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1909.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1925.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我覺得這種思維很可怕這個只限制人民而不檢討政府責任政治之根本這個是絕對不可以的因為民主政治是有它的基本理論的那第三個要提到的是這個當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1927.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1946.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我們晚近有非常多的爭議這一兩年來甚至包含兩岸關係條例的定位都受到挑戰我覺得既然法律人對法律這麼了解謹守司法最後的界限這是作為一個知識份子最後的底線 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1947.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
1977.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那憲法裡面授權了兩岸關係條例它是憲法授權的然後兩岸關係條例裡面也訂得非常清楚本條例未規定者應適用其他有關法律之規定所以它是優先適用的那當然我們在候選人的書面裡面談到很多特別法普通法我覺得不要拗口這些問題它在條文裡面條例是明文規定本條例未規定者適用其他有關法令我想這麼簡單的字義解釋應該是看得非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
1977.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1991.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那更何況我們過去呢566號事件也非常清楚不能增加法律所無之限制那當然你可以了解我們最近從去年爭議到現在的六政 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1992.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2014.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
有兩政是兩岸關係條例裡面明定的其他完全沒有定全部用行政命令在運作我覺得我對我們現在的司法體系或者是政府機關的守法精神是非常懷疑的那希望中選會的委員自己要掌握住自己權限的分際 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2015.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2035.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
另外第四個要提到的是憲法法庭的裁判憲法法庭改成審判制因為到目前為止案件並不多但是從114憲判制第一號到現在115憲判制已經好幾號了最大的問題是委員大法官做了很多很多判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2037.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2057.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
當然114宪判之第一號大法官自己講得很清楚那是他的權限但是他並沒有守法並沒有核限那並不是你自己說核限他就核限所以在民主憲政裡面司法不是最後的守護神最後的守護神是人民這個絕對不能搞錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2058.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2085.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
人民是主權在民最後的守護神任何機關亂權的時候我相信在一個民主國家的憲政體制裡面它絕對會有制衡的機制那當這個無解的問題從去年一直延伸到今年所以呢把憲法法庭的裁判納入這個全民的公投副決事項有何不可因為它已經是沒有辦法之後最後正義的聲音 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2087.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2096.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
而這個聲音 假設我們也聽不到的話我不知道誰可以制衡司法的失能或者是不超然那另外呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2099.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2118.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
中選會它是一個獨立機關這個是非常清楚我們行政院所屬只有三個獨立機關考試院有一個我們縣法上的獨立機關並不多獨立機關要有其獨立性那當然這個我一定要這個特別提到的就是說檢查一體 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2120.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2143.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
這是從有檢查制度到現在人盡皆知的事所以假設檢查機關的重要首長尤其是政治任命的首長他可以來兼獨立機關的委員我會認為這個獨立性甚至不需要學者任何人都可以知道他的獨立性是受到制度面的挑戰我們不管這個人是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2144.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2149.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那偏巧我們這次就有一位那我會認為這個獨立性呢它涉及到除了違反檢查一體的這個跨大行政體系它的超廉受到嚴重的挑戰第二個呢你跨機關行使職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2160.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2183.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
為什麼可以這樣 我們程序法111條 跨機關耶你是本機關業務出問題的時候 你才能跨機關一個人分師兩角 請問他怎麼行事主席還可以再給我一分鐘結束好不好 一分鐘那所以呢 我覺得行政的政務首長檢查體系的這個政務 政治人民的政務首長來兼獨立機關的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2185.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2201.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
絕對不適合他會破壞制度雖然人事總署還是人事單位好像在立法院有提到說過去有潛力但是過去的潛力不是政治任命的檢察首長這個一定要釐清最後一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2202.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2225.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
政治獻金法的問題齁那這個要設專戶我覺得三個被停留人這點都沒有爭議但是足看證明一點哪一點呢執行的行政機關他的提案權目前已經帶多到立法院的提案權早已碾壓過去了行政機關的動作永遠是慢的齁那三個候選人也都認為政治獻金法要修這點是完全沒有爭議最後一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2228.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2248.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我比較難過的是三個被提名人當中有一個所謂的著作卷例是無另外兩個雖然有大概也只有學位論文我記得當專權會員的時候我們寄來的書是整個一兩箱曾幾何時變到不需要著作不需要專業請大家深思深思 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2251.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2251.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
主席與會議的先進 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2270.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2295.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
今天非常高興來參加這一次的公聽會我相信中選會我們關切的除了它是一個獨立機關之外它也是一個專業的機關因此今天在這邊進行有關人事同意權行使前的一個公聽會我認為非常重要而這個公聽會除了要幫助國人去理解我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2296.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2324.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
行政院提名的這個人事案到底啊恰不恰當合適不合適也關係到中選會作為一個獨立機關作為一個憲政機關他的功能能不能夠存續那這是非常非常要緊的所以因此呢我在這邊呢也呼籲了在我們公聽會之後呢立法院能夠儘速的啟動啊同意權之行使那讓啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2327.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2336.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
中选会能够按照原来法制的设计达到委员9到11人的数目 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2337.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2359.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
让他们能够执行工作因为中选会它是一个合议机关它的权利并不是由主委副主委来决定它是透过来自不同的领域不同阶层的这些代表来共同参与这个可以防止行政权的独断 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2360.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2386.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
也能够确保选务的公正以及客观因此如果立法院迟迟不行使同意权或是有所的杯葛阻拦的话这个会侵犯到包含中选会的合议精神这是我在这边提出的一个呼吁也期待我们的立法院能够善尽宪法机关的忠诚义务 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2387.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2411.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那在這個相關被提名人的這個這個人選上面我想我們都已經看過他們提出的一些自我期許還有包含了對中選會的一些想法我想有幾個問題我特別關切也要來請教這三位被提名人我希望這三位被提名人在未來接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2412.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2420.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
这个立法院的询问或是立法委员在行使同意权的时候也能够把这以下的问题考虑在内 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2421.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2448.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
第一個問題就是就有關選務政策以及法令不受政治機關或行政院或立法院的不當干預那這一點剛剛的蔣委員我們的蔣教授也非常關心那這三位提名人應該必須要清楚明確的跟大院還有國人說明說他們如何在強化相關法令以及選務做法上面能夠維持其獨立跟專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2450.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2467.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
其次呢是考虑到从大概2010年以后呢世界各地呢都传出来有威权国家透过各种方式呢去介入民主国家的选举包含美国了包含了欧洲非常非常多的国家那我们中华民国呢也在其中 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2468.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2497.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
因此2019年欧洲议会已经通过决议警告会员国说有外国透过社群媒体的网络攻击等等方式去干扰民主国家选举的情势因此他们要求各国必须要有具体的作为包含要立法去要求社群媒体公司要尽到打击假讯息的责任这样的一个需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2498.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2525.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
也因為近年新興科技如AI生成的迅速發展變成更為迫切那民主國家陣營的對手現在都已經被點名了包含伊朗俄羅斯中華人民共和國等等他們都企圖透過人工智慧技術來加強假訊息的散播對民主國家的選舉進行境外的干預因此中選會在 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2527.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2541.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
考慮我們的選務公正以及正確性上面如何幫助國人來抵抗這樣的一個境外干預這是非常迫切的一個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2543.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2562.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
而在做这些防治的工作的时候中选会除了在法治在相关的措施必须要尽量完备之外他也有跟其他的机关协力合作的必要比如说像NCC像数位部像内政部像国安单位等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2563.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2581.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
因此我期待我们的中选会的委员能够对这些问题有所关切并且能够有具体作为去敦促我们的行政部门以及我们的立法部门都能够共同使我们国家在维持民主 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2583.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2607.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
選舉上面能夠有一定的防衛能力那同時中選會除了協調政府機關之外他也要進行了相關的私領域的協力的工作包含比如說跟媒體或民間團體來合作所以這一點我是從這三位被提名人的資料上面比較沒有看到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2608.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2636.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
所以我期待我們的三位被提名的人他們是有能力也有意願去強化防止外國干預選舉的相關法制並且能夠做出貢獻特別是像中選會能不能協調像我們的法務部門來設立調查機制並且能夠追溯這些境外與境外勢力協力的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2638.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2665.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
國內單位這是非常要緊另外有關不在籍投票中選會已經表明了在公投法25條規定當中得以不在籍投票的方式來進行全國性公民投票法律條文是得到底什麼樣的情況之下得什麼情況之下不得這個部分涉及到中選會的政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2666.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2695.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
以及中選會在個案當中的一個決定那這一點特別要請教像沈淑菲女士因為她未來又會擔任我們中選會的副主任委員那她有責任就如何進行這種不再起投票到底是採取依轉投票通訊投票或允許境外投票或其他等等要有她的一個立場跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2696.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2725.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
做法提供給國人預先知曉最後對於全國性公投案的受理跟審議這也是剛剛展教授有提到的部分我想即使中選會在協助公投辦理的時候當然它根據法令它有進行相關程序性審查的一個責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2726.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2746.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
所以譬如說對於到底是重大政策的創製覆決到底是法律創製覆決這一點是要分辨清楚這也是協助國人在投票的時候能夠做出判斷因此這裡有個問題也就是對一般人民提出的公投案這部分我們經驗豐富我們大概也知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2747.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2776.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
中選會的做法可是對於向立法院提出的公投案那到底怎麼去處理特別是如果這公投案明顯有違反了人權公約大法官解釋或是憲法法庭的判決的時候那中選會到底辦或不辦那這一點我想中選會委員必須要想清楚不能夠搪塞含糊 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2777.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2804.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
要把中選會的觀點或他個人的一個觀點跟國人清楚的表明以上謝謝楊孟昌教授跟各位補充介紹那今天的議程是公聽會要聽各位學者專家的意見但我們也歡迎來了被提名人其實你是禮拜三才要來的我也介紹一下來蔡惟哲律師非常年輕33歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2808.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2819.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
那你所有的回應都可以禮拜三再來回應謝謝謝謝姚孟昌教授剛剛很好的意見那接下來我們請陳恩明律師謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2829.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2854.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
主席還有各位與會貴賓大家好我是陳恒鳴律師那也是去年11月3號剛卸任的中選委員那很榮幸今天可以受邀來參加三位中選委員提名人同意案的這個公聽會那我想我今天主要大概是以曾經身為中選委員的經驗還有自己對中選委組織變遷跟委員背景分析的這個研究來提供個人的一些潛見 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2855.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2885.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那首先就這個整個被提名人這個資格來看的話因為其實依照目前中選會組織法的這個相關規定來看的話他其實規定的是非常的簡略他只有在這個第三條第四項裡面去規定說只要是法證相關學術經驗的公證人士來擔任那消極規則只有說同一檔級不得超過三分之一那至於同條第六項這個一些免職條款的部分因為都還沒有上任我想這部分不是今天要討論的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2886.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2896.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那這三位候選人這樣初步看起來應該在這部分是都符合規定那反而第二部分針對這個制度設計的部分我個人表示一些意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2898.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2927.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那制度設計部分剛才貴美長委員她也有提到說有關這個法務部次長這個兼任這部分那我個人是曾經整理了從民國58年到現在114年所有國內歷屆的中選委員的這個名單這樣那依照我的研究結果我們中選會委員裡面在法制化之前的話那內政部部長當然以前都是當然的兼任委員在這個專任主委之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2927.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2955.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那後來的這個內政部次長跟法務部次長在法制化之前總統都是提名的這個當然的委員的人選那當然有他必要性因為內政部法務部內政部有關這個警政護政消防這跟這個選務實在是太密切了然後有關這個茶會啊這個法務部的部分也有非常多這關聯所以我們可以想像說在當時總統這個整個提名派任這個委員的這個過程裡面他 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2957.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2984.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
法務部跟內政部是次長是當然這個委員人選但是值得注意的是說其實在這個法制化之後法制化之後反而這個有點變化法制化之後其實大家可以注意到在這個內政部次長部分這個都一直延續從第一切開始的簡太郎委員到後來的林慈玲委員邱昌越委員到吳榮輝委員這個是從來沒有中斷過的那因為這個我們之前在開會的時候也嘗試很多這個要協調部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2985.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3013.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
委員會裡面講一講馬上就電話就聯絡就解決這個問題那現在反而是法務部次長的這一部分我們在觀察整個名單裡面就發現說在法治化之後法務部次長這個反而是沒有延續下來那中間只有一屆在104年那一屆的這個林接的委員林接的委員當時是這個台灣高檢署的檢察長然後後來也代理過檢察總長但是那一屆之後也仍然沒有去延續 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3014.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3041.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那這一屆有繼續有提名這個黃某興次長來擔任那我個人是認為說當然這個業務的這個協調部分有這個需求我也覺得說是不是要恢復這個路線還是怎麼樣在這個歷史制度論上這個是整個制度又要再恢復這個當然是可以討論那我是個人說當然這個假設不關黨派之純粹功能性來考量的部分這個是可以考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3041.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3050.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那我反而比較要提出一點就是說剛才其實掌櫃委員也提到一點他提到一點就是說獨立性的部分那其實這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3052.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3080.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
法制化之前後會產生一個問題在法制化之前因為他們都是隨政務進退因為總統任命嘛隨政務進退沒有任期的問題可是法制化之後中選委員是有任期制的而且是國會同意的他也不是隨便下來之後然後又隨便又拍那個再上來所以就形成在法制化之後這些因職務來兼委員的這些委員的這個次長的部分像這個內政部次長部分他其實是跟隨著中選委委員的任期 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3081.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3108.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
他不是跟隨他自己政務職本身這個任期的部分那這個就會有點矛盾那如果說當時的這個提名的著眼點是要他們來做一些業務的協調等等部分那現在反而失去這個功能的話那可是又很需要這個功能怎麼樣那我是個人是建議說或許是不是可以考慮那將來在這個組織法的部分是可以考慮說由他們來列席我們這個中選會的這個委員會那不一定說是不是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3110.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3129.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
來擔這個委員部分那剛才長官委員有提到一點就是說這個跟獨立性部分是不是有一些這個衝突那我個人是認為說這個是值得考慮的一個方式那在最後一部分就是說我當然看到商務委員都有提到有些重大議題的表示意見的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3130.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3144.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那當然我之前在被提名我們都寫過這一部分的一些對人的看法那我個人要表達就是說其實我常在思考一個問題整個選務最核心最核心的部分其實是怎麼讓一個公平公正的選務完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3145.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3164.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那大家都覺得這本來就理所當然嘛可是各位有沒有想過齁我以前就舉個例子我想說我們中選院網站光是網站不要是內部計標系統我們如果我們的網站被攻擊譬如今天是總統大選的時候七點的時候說是B候選人當選結果到八點半最後開票的時候是A候選人當選的話你說全國會怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3166.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3194.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
那這個意思就是說其實在整個民主政治裡面選務是一個最大的核心它讓整個政權可以順利的移轉或是順利的得到再復權的一個效果那所以它的最重要目的就是讓這個選舉結果讓大家第一個是可以信任這個結果是正確的那你其他說技術性上大家是不是要電子投票要不要這個不在一起投票等等我認為在這個基石之上只要不會去違反這部分的話其他再去考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3194.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3216.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
所以我記得我之前第三次被提名的時候我是認為說有關這不在一起投票的問題的話就是你先求穩再求有最後再求好你如果最後因為這些技術上的問題你最後連選舉公正得到大家信任這個最核心的結果你都失去的話那還有任何意義嗎那各位看到這兩天這個韓國的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3218.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3244.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
選舉的部分那我可以跟各位分享兩個經驗我自己曾經驗過兩次票我驗過兩次票第一次是2004年這個全國大驗票當時的這個阿扁總統第二任全國大驗票我們律師全部停止開庭一個禮拜全國的所有的體育館全部來大驗票那第二次是在這個新竹縣長選舉的時候曾經驗票過那大家可能覺得說這一票一票這樣投這個很落後對不起一票一票我們是一票一票拿出來數一票一票還原過來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3246.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3267.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那這個還原過來之後就會發現說其實很多東西通通可以勾結的出來今天假如是電子投票的話我請問因為你要兼顧這個投票秘密性嘛那你也不能說那個電子投票是我投的你如何勾結回去那第二個就是說現在大家執政黨之間大家或是說政黨之間大家也不是互相很信任的情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3268.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3280.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我認為用最物理性最客觀的方式去做讓他都可以去往回勾肌全部完全都沒有問題那例如像其他所謂的這個不在己投票的部分其實也是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3281.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3300.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
那我們以前在想說一個問題 假設村里長都不在一起投票的話各位可以想像一個投開票所你要準備多少票來預備嗎所以現在不在一起投票 規劃方式當然是先從單一票種就從對市的部分或總統的部分可以來開始考量那其他的有像什麼通訊投票等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3301.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3320.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
海外投票的部分我認為以我們台灣目前的這個政治現實政治現況來看我認為我們要的是一個讓整個政權可以民主最核心可以順利移轉的這個功能那這部分是我的這個意見那我有相關的發言稿我會再提供給我們單位再可以來做這個今天發言的紀錄謝謝謝謝陳恩明律師謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3329.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3352.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
接下來我們請傅欣怡律師謝謝主席委員還有各位先進大家好我是傅欣怡今天非常榮幸能夠在這邊然後我是從法律的實務經驗以及法學研究者的角度 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3353.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3379.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
想跟大家來探討這個攸關於台灣民主根基的這個關鍵議題到底我們需要什麼樣的中選會的委員那有關於各國的選舉委員會的組織制度不一樣有的國家是採行獨立的機構形式有的國家是隸屬於在政府組織架構底下有的國家也是採行混合制那我想不同的制度就有不同他的委員組織需求那因為時間有限就是我們沒有辦法針對各個制度的所需求的委員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3381.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3397.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
他的要件內涵來逐一分析那本次緊救我國的選舉制度還有這次的提名的三位的被提名人然後我們來討論到底我們需要什麼樣的特質的中選會委員那基本上呢我們都知道就是也誠如方才的各位先進已經有講過了中選會的委員主要的專長當然是法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3401.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3416.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
具有行政經驗並且關心公共事務為主我想這個非常重要 卓烏雍異但是在現在民主深化資訊科技的時代還有整個地緣政治的紊亂好 那我們我想僅僅懂法律可能不足以回應現代選舉的複雜需求那中選會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3419.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3447.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
公信力呢我相信當然不是只有法律所賦予的權利更是來自於委員本身是否有具備獨立判斷的品格以及對於程序正義的理念還有維護民主體制的勇氣所以在這邊呢針對三位候選人的三位被提名人的一個資料然後那我也整理了我心中覺得應該要具備中選會委員的核心的特質來向三位委員來提出期許 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3447.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3463.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
好那這六項特質呢分別為程序道德的優先性制度制度性孤獨的承受力還有統計技術的理解力以及國際法證的事業以及識別制度性操縱以及語言邊界的精準性 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3465.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3469.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那有關於這六項特質呢第一點就是我認為最重要就是程序道德的絕對優先性我們現在已經進入了數位治理以及AI的時代現在的選務呢早就已經不是單純的監督發選票開票鬼而已雖然說最近南韓是因為選票不足這一個這麼簡單的瑕疵也讓我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3484.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3507.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
覺得單純到不可思議但是呢我們應該要更加深入的去看看未來這些深層的偽造技術還有深層的AI技術非常活躍我們可以想像一個場景就如同方才那個陳大律師所講的今天如果說我們今天有受到駭客攻擊那這個當然是很嚴重的事情那還有另外一種情境是如果在投票的前一天晚上網路上 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3507.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3525.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
突然瘋狂的傳假的影片逼真的程度在第一時間讓專家都難以分辨真偽那當然有可能會涉及到境外操控那這種情況都有可能會讓這些假的影片影響到我們隔天的選舉的公正性所以委員們必須要具備科技的視野 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3526.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3540.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
對於大數據以及資訊安全還有數位媒體應該要有所素養跟理解能夠看懂資訊風險才能夠防範於未然那接下來呢就是有關於比較性的國際憲政視野就是我相信一個不好意思我剛有跳過了那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3546.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3568.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
我剛剛跳過了那個最前面的那個想要論述的有關於就是程序道德的優先性那這個話這個部分我想要再補充一個案例就是在在西元2000年的時候在千禧年的時候那時候美國有一個很重要的大選就是大家應該都還記得那時候的總統大選那時候是小布希跟高爾的選舉他們在佛羅里達州的計票其實只相差 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3573.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3601.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
1000多票那當州的選舉人有600多萬人所以他們就是依照法定的規定低於0.5%的差異的話他必須要開他必須要啟動法定的重新計票那當然那因為總統大選所以他們也造成了很大的一個社會的爭議那這個社會爭議呢最後在什麼情況之下被彌平的是在美國聯邦最高法院以及在他們的選務機關堅守法律的底線之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3602.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3619.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
判決了就是最後是由小布希勝訴然後在高爾宣布敗選之後他們也彌平了這個紛爭所以其實我們可以知道說縱使抱持著不同立場但是因為共同選擇了相同的程序的尊重所以這個民主制度才可以足以挺過危機 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3621.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3636.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
所以在這邊的話呢我在這邊還是要再次強調程序正義是社會契約的最後防線所以在這邊的話這個其實應該是委員應該要遵守的那有關於這個制度性的孤獨能力呢其實在這邊的話其實我想要強調的就是因為所有的政治媒體都會給 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3637.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3653.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
中選會很大的壓力那所以其實在社會如果呈現了集體的情緒動員的時候中選會的委員應該要能夠有承受孤獨不隨波逐流而且不要被政黨所影響的這樣依法行政的能力那維護民主制度的核心 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3653.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3674.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
好然後那有關於這個比較國際的視野呢其實我在這邊其實也是非常贊同前面委員講到的就是優秀的委員不能夠只是看台灣我們還是要看全世界就是我們來看就假設說今天就打個比方就像是印度他有9億的選民有22種官方語言他們是如何在國際經驗中去 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3677.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3705.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
去找出符合一個這麼大規模的選舉的制度架構之下來完成超大規模的民主選舉所以這個未來也是我們在新興的選舉爭議時從國際經驗中來幫台灣找出一個開創性的解方不會被既有框架限制的一個國際性的就是國際性的一種視野跟一種觀點那這個應該也是委員應該必須要必須要具備的那我看就是黃毛信 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3706.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3723.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
次長他其實他有海外留學經驗我相信在國際比較法的經驗他應該也是可以去做好這樣子的準備那有關於識別性的制度操控呢其實就是有一本經典名著叫做民主如何死亡這是美國的一本教科書他有警告說 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3724.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3748.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
當代民主的崩潰不是靠著坦克車跟軍事政變而是在合法的程序包裝底下從內部漸進式的侵蝕那我們從歷史上有很多案例我們可以看到說有很多侵蝕民主的這種擴張往往都是改變獨立機關的任命規則開始一步一步削減這些獨立性的權限縮減選務的預算然後去做一些杯葛性的動作所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3748.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3763.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
導致了我們的民主受到了強害那我想在這個部分的話呢中選會的委員必須是要是一個適格的民主的守門人然後他要能夠有一眼看穿哪些叫做披著合法的外衣但是實則是在操控制度導致民主倒退的這個潛在風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3765.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3791.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那第六項的特質就是語言邊界的精準性就是不精準的語言常常就會導致社會的動盪跟崩壞所以在這邊的話呢我想委員在這邊對於用語的精準度以及徹底排除掉曖昧的政治用語的歧義這個必須要有所認識跟辨別綜合以上特質呢其實我在最後想要提出一個最關鍵的要素叫做制度性勇氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3792.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3819.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那這個制度性勇氣不是個人的英雄主義也不是盲目的對抗它是能夠在歷史的關鍵時刻就是在政治的巨浪跟社會的輿論鋪天蓋地而來的時候委員們還是能夠挺起胸膛心中只有程序爭議為了維護選舉的公信力大聲的對壓力說不的勇氣所以民主制度真正需要的不是只是會蓋章的官員而是願意在關鍵的時刻挺身捍衛制度的守護者 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3820.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3839.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那最後呢從本次的三位被提名人的資料看起來確實是學仰俱豐那我這邊也期待被提名人在未來的任期中能夠發揮專業為全體國人展現無所畏懼的制度系勇氣那因為具有專業能力跟制度品格才能夠為台灣守護住選舉的公平公正以及公信力謝謝謝謝傅清儀律師很用心謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3846.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3847.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
主席還有在座各位大家好我先說一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3861.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3878.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
這個是我來針對這個中選委員第二次所以我今天這個Power Point等於是把省事不少把上次稍微改一下那這個我在上一次的時候因為現在流行AI剛才也不斷提到AI然後我也試著把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3880.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3893.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
這個丟給AI去回答那我是覺得就是中學二年大概就是剛才幾位都提到了當然就是很重要的是獨立跟中立性然後還有專業的這個學士還有道德的操守 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3898.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3911.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我在今年之前我沒有參加過立法院有關人士同意權的公聽會我本來要參加都對視了但今年第一次結果沒想到今天算起來就第三次 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3912.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3935.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
那我還是要習慣性的再抱怨一下就是說因為目前這個急迫性由於中選後委員因為不足人數然後可是我們今年的選舉2026年的地方選舉就到了然後還有公投案的問題所以這個時間的壓迫性這個我想立法院這邊或者是中選這邊都有一個壓迫性那 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3936.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3961.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
就我來參加這個公聽會呢 也面臨著這種急迫性的壓力啦那就是呢 那個資料真的很有限所以呢 我要再強調然後另一事齁 我只有一直到今天我還是 來到這邊還是只有這個這個書面資料以及呢 我們這個有一些書面資料齁我覺得這個真的是很不夠的那我不管齁 這個過程是不是一個我們公聽會是不是過水 但至少就我 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
3961.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
3981.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我既然來到這裡 我願意擔任這個專家的意見我還是要強調 六案給我們的資料實在是太少了好 那這個審查的重點當然就是剛才提到的 首先是專業性那我想三位的 學金的這個沒有什麼好挑剔的這個沒有什麼問題 那只是說就專業性來講就是跟這個選務工作的專業性 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
3986.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4004.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
這個基本上我發現到有一個問題就是說這個跟中選會的連結性我覺得不太高那為什麼這麼講呢因為我們要看有沒有跟選務工作或者是選舉這個部分有所謂的專業性的連結那當然就是看他過去做什麼嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4005.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4024.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
然後呢 那如果說過去可能和學沒有關係 可是他可能他在學術 比方說發表論文甚至是他的碩博士論文有關這方面的 那我或許也可以看一個連結可是呢 目前我看一下 就算這個連結性事實上呢 我覺得好像不是很高然後呢 再來就是說 有關這個獨立性的問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4027.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4051.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那我等一下會針對三位提出我的意見就是說這個獨立性、中立性的問題然後更重要的是說我要看到的是這三位被提名人他的一個對一些選務工作的重要議題他的一個意見那我發現到這個意見事實上在商業裡面事實上也寫得很少那我要看到的是什麼東西呢首先第一個當然就是剛才也有提到的有關不在籍投票的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4054.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4067.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
最近韓國選舉因為事前投票跟不在籍投票的關係所以目前自發性的走上街頭有關台灣一直在針對不在籍投票的問題這個已經爭議很久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4069.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4096.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那三位都有提到這個問題 單純是蜻蜓點水那具體的你說要循序建立這個人的漸進法我是看不出來然後再來我很關心的一個議題就是我剛才提到就是有關公投的議案的問題因為是有可能立法院這邊會提有關邊形或者是像MS這個問題那到底中學內可不可以做實質審查我發現到在書面這兩條我也看不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4096.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4113.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
好那我呢這只能從有限的資料裡面去看一下看一下這三位那第一位當然是要兼這個副主委那這個當然這個非常非常重要那就他的行政資歷來講我發現非常的完整國保專業也非常非常足夠等於是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4114.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4132.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
哇 這個行政歷練呢 這個可以說是 我沒有辦法挑出任何毛病但現在會有一個很大的問題啦就是說 這個我不能用官僚這兩個字啦 我用一個比較中性的名稱啦那它這個這麼完整的行政之力呢 是不是會帶來那種行政議題的那種特質 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4135.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4145.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
這個是一個很大的問題那這個本身這種特質喔可能會跟所謂的獨立性跟綜藝性我覺得是我這裡可能會打一個問號那這個呢我至少從他的這個書面資料裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4150.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4179.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
然後再來我看一下這個第一位這個委員他的自我信息還是宣示性居多啦那有關這個選務工作的數位科技運用剛才我一開始提到那個問AI他也提到這個很重要那怎麼個用法他只有短短數語我也看不出來這個這個要數位科技到底要怎麼運用這裡講的是是要用電子投票或什麼東西嗎他都沒有講所以我也不知道他到底要表達什麼意思然後再來就是我很關意的就是有關中大政策的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4180.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4209.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
這個部分有關不在籍投票在書面資料裡面第一位委員 被提名的他提到因為目前我們只有在公民投票法裡面有提到全國性公投的話這個部分他只提到這個但是他針對怎麼選舉漸進我也看不出來他也沒有寫然後更重要是說有關公投綁大選的問題他提到怎麼避免2018那到底怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4209.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4228.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
這個部分我也沒有看到他有具體的這個說明然後第二位委員他這個很年輕但他也在場這個是我第一次碰到有這個被提問的這個問題但他也在場那他的經歷裡面也都大概都是冤罪跟弱勢族群的救援 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4229.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4246.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那但是還是我那個問題啦就是說這個跟選舉事務是不是有什麼關聯性然後呢他倒是有一點他在自我期許跟包括這個部分倒是有一點我覺得有亮點就是呢他利用經濟學的方式應用到選舉事務的改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4247.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4272.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
這個部分我覺得非常非常重要這個可能是如果真的是可以用這種方式的話或許我們可以去用這種方式去檢討一下就是說有關不再投票尤其是尤其是跟這個DOM他的那個碩士論文有關那個刑法就是受刑人的這個部分我覺得這個部分是我覺得可以期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4273.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4299.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
好那在最後有關這個這個第二委員提到的重大政策他對於這一些方式他很強調用這個這個經濟的分析去用那有關這個部分呢我覺得這個部分是有亮點但是因為沒有太具體的說明好那最後一位委員這個就是目前我們的政務次長我是覺得從他的書面資料我感覺他是不是提名錯了他應該去提名檢察總長吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4301.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4327.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我再怎麼看都覺得他都在描述過去的一個檢查的獨立性的問題所以呢第三位委員我感覺是那至於說政務次長是不是適合來兼任這個中選會委員我到強化居然法沒有排除當然可以提名但我還是強調那個獨立性的問題就是說如果你身兼一個次長那這裡又有獨立性的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4327.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4343.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那這個時候我認為是會有衝突的就跟地位委員一樣會有一個衝突的然後再來就是有關這個他有關自我吸取或重大政策這個宣示性比較強不過他在針對我發現民政黨給我的他的問卷裡面我最後要強調他有提到有關公投的議題他是可以做實質審查的這一點我感覺是有點我會有一點質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4355.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4377.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
好 那因為時間也到了 最後我再強調就是說優秀的學境率不必然保證公正性豐富的實務經驗也不保證中益性因此我對於三位提名人 所謂的獨立性 客觀性的要求我們全民也可能是一個期待跟期許 謝謝謝謝 謝謝吳景興主任 謝謝接下來我們請謝振宇教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4401.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4426.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
主席各位在座的先進跟媒體朋友每次要對這些所謂的人事的公聽會的時候其實我們都有很大很大的期許怎麼樣是一個稱職的重要的一個所謂的行政的官員那我提出一些時間的關係我提出一些看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4428.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4457.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
這次的三位被提名人我給他們兩個肯定但是有六點他山之死跟一點期許那希望他們的諾言是這個社會的對這個社會大眾的投名狀未來怎麼樣謹守你們的諾言而不是提名前說一套提名之後就安了 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4459.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4487.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
其實我認為被提名人雖然我給他們某些肯定了因為從他們的記錄裡面似乎過去沒有對政黨政治有比較偏頗的一些作為或者言論但是我覺得他們太著重法律的背景在法條上做很多細密的一些解釋跟推理而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4488.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4513.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
今天中選會面臨的是還有很多政治的問題跟所謂的實務的問題這些部分是這一次的委員裡面比較缺乏的我用六點的其他的經驗裡面來跟大家一起審視一下當然案件多少這一次國民黨的黨團提出十個問題來問他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4515.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4543.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那每一個委員也都回應了但是似乎都沒有看到先進國家人家做的例子瑞士全國性的一年四次每一次四個案子加州每兩年一次每一次的案子可以高達12個那我們現在的選委會裡面沒有的是人家每一個案子都會做財政影響評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4545.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4566.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我們沒有這一部分另外這個財政影響評估是由一個超然的單位來撰寫來撰寫那這個部分是不是我們也要列入參考另外當然我也提供說未來撰寫怎麼有哪些單位我也提出了 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4567.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4583.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
我就舉美國加州的例子因為加州實施公民投票太多了各位看那個左方這個部分人家從一般實質投票跟通訊投票的部分那個日期很近啊人家都有辦法解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4584.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4610.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
不是三位所謂的被提名人講的非常複雜我們8000多個加州的選票我以一個郡來講他的選票也這麼多耶這麼多我算了一下大概有20種如果加州有20個縣的話那就有幾百種了但是人家為什麼可以做得到解決複雜的問題因為他們電子開票 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4614.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4643.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
電子開票所以每一個案子他都很快速的可以知道民意的所在我在看底下另外我畫紅線的部分人家的選務工作做到可以用語音來提供給所有的公民來聆聽我們現在很多時間是在公共空間裡面沒辦法閱讀所以人家已經有語音的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4644.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4652.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
另外我們來看每一個公投的案子他都有什麼我剛剛提到了有所謂的財政的審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4653.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4674.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
另外還有針對每一個案子他有很多正反意見然後這個如果是由政府單位提供的話那州長州務卿啊都要進一步說明他們的立場是什麼另外還有更關鍵的是針對正反意見的再反駁 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4675.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4692.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那這個部分我們也沒有 所以我們還有很大的一個改革的空間另外 移轉性投票 我們也看了三位被提名人 那他們認為很複雜 所以很難 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4694.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4713.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
那加州怎麼解決這個問題我剛剛提到電子電子雖然我們剛剛也有所謂的教授律師提到說我們再次驗票的時候要實質的那個部分但是科技的發達台灣成為一個科技島 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4714.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4736.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
他這個部分沒有辦法解決嗎應該很容易所以我們怎麼樣選務怎麼樣朝這個方向去逐步的一個落實我想是未來他可以減少很多人力啊他可以減少人為判斷很多的爭議啊我想這個部分是我們未來應該要充分考量的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4738.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4751.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我剛剛也提到了 這個是加州的選票然後他還有提供說 這個選票其實我畫的很簡單什麼樣是有效票 什麼樣是無效票寄給每一個公民都有一張很簡單的一個說明書就畫一橫就解決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4758.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4770.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我想這個部分我們似乎不曉得是不願意改革現狀還是有什麼樣的利益團體還是有什麼樣的壓力在我再舉一個例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4771.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4796.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我當然沒有在因為很多篇幅的關係比方說他們有一個案子就第十四案的公民投票案這個案子是什麼就是說為了他也是政府的立場他們也承認選出來的人不是那麼優秀所以所有的候選人他有一個候選人的初選制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4798.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4803.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
這樣的狀況當然是很大膽的他跳過了政黨每一個人都可以選 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4804.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4830.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
民主黨共和黨綠黨無黨派的或者是等等等等加州大概有六七個大的所謂的每一次選舉都會出來的一個政黨也可以無黨無派的他們都認為現有的經常讓國會產生亂象的就是幾個大黨所以他們大膽的提供給社會大眾說怎麼樣讓社會優秀的人進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4832.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4861.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
另外我也認為說當這個獨立機關的人要有Guts我們看最近美國總統多少次施壓零準會但是把我扛住了扛住了立場當然最近通過了一個WASH然後六月份馬上要進行第一次的FED的一個委員會議他影響全世界的匯率了這樣一個獨立 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4862.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4889.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
一個機關美國總統美國行政單位想要插手插不進去啊插不進去我希望我們未來的一個官員能夠堅守自己在罷免案當中啊也有提到說等等等等啦我認為沒有注意到一點的是罷免在民主國家裡面是一個備案啊被稱為門後的一支巨蚌啊為什麼不好意思再給我一分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4891.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4918.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
我們流於一種報復性的一個動員選舉撕裂了台灣的社會變成一個對立性的東西這樣一個東西中選會應該非常慎重的怎麼樣來想而不是當有一個說罷免要有所謂的政治獻金我們就跟著附和了他的政治獻金居然跟選舉期間的不能等量其關 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4920.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4935.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
這是當然我個人的一個大膽的意見最後我們希望說那個偽的訊息那個假的訊息真的太厲害怎麼樣在選舉期間趕快動作快而不是選後再來追溯那個實在緩不濟急 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4939.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4965.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
一點期許選舉 中選會不是最後開票出來那個數字的民主 科學的民主也不是只求程序的民主我們怎麼樣好好設計這個選舉的制度讓優秀的人能夠出來進到一個人文民主讓我們的老百姓選舉的時候是一個快樂的出航是一個嘉年華會不是照社會的非常緊張對立這是我個人的簡介 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4971.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4980.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
謝謝謝謝謝正宇教授謝謝來我們請本會委員王宏威委員發言謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4991.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5017.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
好 謝謝主席那我們今天是因應我們的中選會的委員審查召開的公聽會那其實有關於選舉的公正性以及未來選舉的這些考驗也好或者是我們委員應該具備什麼樣條件其實都有非常多的討論那我今天想提出來因為最近韓國的地方選舉才剛剛結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5020.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5049.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
但是就是這兩天韓國選舉因為在首爾選舉的部分出現了極大的爭議結果台灣的網路台灣的媒體也沒有閒著然後有一堆的假訊息甚至是造謠所以我為什麼特別在今天要提出來也就是說我們未來中選會它所面臨的考驗不僅僅只是大家對於中選會的獨立公正性的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5050.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5069.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
或者是对一些重大政策的看法而是现在层出不成的造谣以及网络上的抹黑或者是深维报导影片的变造我要特别提这两天的韩国的选举 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5069.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5071.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
韓國這次的選舉為什麼造成爭議其實在事後非常明確的就是他的選票不足因為他們低估了他的投票率 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5084.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5093.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
結果 台灣這兩天 也許大家沒有特別注意到我們的翠上面的這些策略跟網軍大舉出動包括他們選舉中間的抗議可以把當年的官話門抗議的影片造假成這一次韓國選舉的抗議 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5107.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5125.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
甚至在這個過程裡面因為韓國很多他們很多執法的時候他們的警察是蒙面的結果我們這邊一大堆的網路的謠言就是中國冒充韓國警察進去執法進去影響選舉還說人家的法色怎樣怎樣怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5130.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5147.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
包括我直接在這邊點名就是像三立新聞因為我看到他這兩天他終於他說後來有人跟我講他不是道歉而是呢提出說明因為在外界強烈質疑在這個過程裡面他們的報導有特意的要引風向 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5152.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5179.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
他就说什么中国公安混进南海警察这事实上在韩国来讲他们的警察本来就是会蒙面来做执法的或者是说爆发警民冲突然后用所谓的中国借选论而更离谱的是这些侧翼这些网军再把韩国的选举说中国借选然后直接来攻击在野党提出的不在籍投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5180.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5206.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
但是事實上現在我們所有在野黨提出的不在籍投票已經不包括海外僅限於台澎清嘛所以我在這邊也特別提出也許我們有一些委員這三位委員沒有一個人敢針對不在籍投票發表自己的看法唯有其中一位比較年輕的律師他提出了所謂的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5207.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5236.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
受刑人应该要有投票的权利选举的权利可是问题是如果我们不实施不在即投票请问一下我们没有被褫夺公权的受刑人他如何去完成他的选举呢更不要说我们很多的军警校现在甚至很多的护理人员因为他没有办法离开他的工作岗位他们也变成莫名其妙的被夺去了他们的公民的权利 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5237.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5257.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
所以這種牽扯可以從韓國選舉選票不足然後直接製造很多的謠言說中國借選然後再把它引申到這一次在立法院裡面很多委員提出來的不在籍投票是幫助中國借選 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5258.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5261.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
所以大家就可以理解我們現在面對的是什麼面對的是大量不只是網路還有我們這些所謂的主流媒體的配合大家想想看如果這個事件是發生在台灣呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5273.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5298.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
如果我們某一個投票所出現因為它錯估的投票率而發生選票的票數不足而造成了選民的抗議是不是可以在短短的幾個小時之內大量的製造這些新聞大量製造這些消息大量製造這些帶風向的消息影響選舉呢我覺得這都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5300.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5309.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
未來我們整個中選會要足以深思的地方我們其實在上一次中選會來做這個業務報告的時候我記得我們的現在的主席也提出來了像這種身為影片意圖影響選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5320.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5338.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那麼會有什麼樣的影響 中選會要怎麼樣的去來做防範所以我要特別說在這次他們的簡介裡面或者他們所提出他們的看法裡面我認為都傾向於過於的這樣的一個保守另外在一個議題我也想提出來一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5346.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5361.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
因為這裡面其中一個議題是如何讓民眾信任我們的選舉而我自己身為民意代表我最近我們其實很多委員也有很多的陳情就是我們現在的投票箱是不透明的 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5362.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5376.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
用紙箱所以後來很多都在質疑這樣的不透明的這個紙箱會不會引發所謂的作票的一個聯想所以我們在這一次我們也有委員特別提到就是是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5378.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5382.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
應該在某一個程度 有的人是建議釋法改成一個透明的壓克力箱或者至少在底部改採透明的壓克力我覺得雖然台灣的民主選舉非常的成熟了 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5393.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5411.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
可是隨著在網路上這些謠言而且有人是蓄意的帶風向甚至試圖去影響選舉或者是說怎麼樣去建立民眾對於選舉的一個信心我覺得還有非常大的一個努力空間以上謝謝王宏威委員 謝謝接下來我們請劉家威教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5432.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5438.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
主席各位委員各位先進還有各位一起參加公聽會的朋友大家好 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5439.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5461.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我是國立台北大學公共行政暨政策學系的教授劉家威很高興能夠參與今天的公聽會來對這三位的被提名人表示意見那當然上次所提出的人選當中有一些沒有通過所以我們今天呢還必須在這邊召開公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5463.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5481.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
後續我們的內政委員會也會召開他們的審查會議所以我們今天提供一些意見讓大院來做一個參考我本身在國立台北大學公共行政暨政策學系裡面教授政治學還有政黨與選舉選舉投票行為相關的課程也曾經擔任過中央選舉委員會的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5489.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5498.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
今天也很榮幸來為這三位人選來表達意見首先我們今天的審查當然是因為我們有中選會的組織法 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5501.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5519.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
有了这部法令之后呢我们可以很清楚的知道我们需要什么样的委员在中选会的组织法里面的第三条就提到本会委员应临选具有法政相关学士经验之公正人士担任 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5520.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5546.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我想這次所提出來的三位被提名人在這個部分是沒有異議的他們都是法證相關經驗具有專業的人士再者第五條的部分提到本會委員應該超出黨派以外依法獨立行使職權在任職期間不得參加政黨活動我想這是對於委員的規範也是對於委員的期許 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5550.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5576.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
接着我们来看一下这几个委员的被提名人他们在目前的一些重大的有关于中选会的主管的业务也就是选举罢免还有官民投票他们的态度是怎么样的是不是真的能够独立行使职权是不是能够不受政党的影响 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5578.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5600.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
而能夠依法行政所謂的依法行政當然是依照法律的規定來進行中選會委員任內所有的工作韓國最近發生的事情選票不足這是典型的選務的問題就像我們學校裡面在排課那就是課務組 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5602.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5631.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
看起來是一個束霧但其實一點都不簡單只要有束霧上面出現的一絲絲的問題在國內的政黨對立的情況之下都可能演變成巨大的政治的風暴我們來看看這三位被提名人他們在一些目前國內的政治上重大的爭議的議題的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5632.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5656.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我列出四項第一項是對立法院交付公投是否有審查權第二項是陸配參政的議題第三項是移轉投票第四項是當選後這個候選人是不是就可以開始被連署罷免了 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5657.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5682.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我們的副主委被提名人這個沈淑飛沈被提名人他在立法院交付公投是否有審查權的意見上面採取保守的態度他說要繼續聽取意見我們不希望一個已經被提名為副主委提名人的中選會副主委被提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5683.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5712.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
還要再聽取意見現在你們都是要為國家來服務為國家來貢獻幾十年來的法律專業這幾位的被提名人都有相當多的經驗是不是在未來審查的時候能夠去對於這樣的議題做一個表態做一個說明聽取意見也許是必要的但現在呢您的看法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5713.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5740.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
而蔡惟哲被提名人呢他认为仍然需要审查中选会仍然需要审查立法院交付公投是否有审查权而黄龙信被提名人他认为是需要低密度的审查这个部分是否与法有据呢我们来看一下公民投票法的15条之一他说了什么 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5741.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5762.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
他說立法院依憲法之規定提出之覆決案經公告後半年應於10日內交由主管機關辦理公民投票直接就是交由主管機關辦理公民投票沒有提到審查因為這是立法院提出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5763.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5790.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
公民投票法15條之二說立法院對於第二條第二項第三款的事項認為有提出公民投票的必要的得附句主文理由書經立法院院會通過後10日內交由主管機關辦理公民投票不適用同法其他法條的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5791.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5802.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這也講得很清楚公民投票法沒有說中選會需要審查立法院所提的公投主文還有它的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5804.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5826.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
而這三位被提名人似乎有些認為需要審查有些是低密度審查有些還要聽取意見我不太了解都已經被提名為中選會委員為什麼還在這些態度上猶疑不定或是認為需要審查再者第二項議題是國內討論的沸沸揚揚的陸配參政 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5832.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5840.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
立法參政的議題呢 被提名人說明確在他之下有提到不必適用國籍法 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5842.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5861.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
非常明確蔡惟哲被提名人表示仍需要修國籍法或兩岸關係條例還需要修法嗎是不是應該適用於兩岸關係人民條例或其他明確的法令目前有什麼樣的爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5863.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5878.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
華盟新委員也認為有意義移轉投票的部分省被提名人提到同意用在公民投票如果真的擔任了副主委從這裡開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5880.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5909.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
又再公民投票是一個好的開始蔡惟哲委員原則上同意一轉投票但表示有七項困境黃被提名人提到贊成但需要循序漸進希望未來能夠突破困境循序漸進最後一項議題當選之後就開始連署罷免嗎省被提名人說法未明確規定需要明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5911.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5938.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
環北庭園傾向維持現狀代表目前已經在當委員的中選會委員以及未來可能會參與的委員他們在意見上都有非常多的不一如果真的都能成為中選委員希望這個合意志能夠運作良好為國家民主帶來福利謝謝好謝謝謝謝劉江威教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5942.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5969.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
請問各位專家學者有沒有要進行第二輪發言謝謝教授我們第二輪就三分鐘好不好歡迎各位謝謝如果有要他們回覆的話是可以那因為今天在場主要是專家學者的一些意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5974.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6000.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
請謝教授進行第二輪發言三分鐘謝謝主席 各位在座的來賓 媒體朋友我剛剛約略提到就是說一個中選會的選務的設計一方面他像婦產科醫師或者是傳統的產婆能夠順利安全的走程序然後安全的生產 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6002.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6017.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我覺得更重要的部分是他要保障那個產婦也是安全的那這個產婦在這裡的角色就是選民的角色啦那簡單的說我們現在是早上8點到下午4點投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6018.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6045.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
以加州為例的話他到晚上8點各位11月份的加州北加州是非常冷的但是為什麼因為保障選民的權益啊那為什麼能夠做到這樣子另外一點就是他們電子開票那我們都不敢踏出這一步這哪是對中選會對選民的一種權益的保障啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6046.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6060.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
另外剛剛也提到了罷免的問題那罷免真的是就是我們現在變成相當頻繁的在過去一段時間裡面然後一下子連署的時間很早就在連署就在動員了 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6062.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6077.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
民主先進國家幾乎沒有這樣子的當然三位委員當中其中一位有提到說應該在那個連署書上讓他是一年以後才可以去連署的這個部分我非常的贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6079.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6101.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
其他的制度或者其他的一個選務的一個態度的部分應該也要朝著一年之後至少你給他一年的問政的成果嘛我們現在真的走向報復性的還有媒體的部分的報導假信息的報導讓社會撕裂掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6102.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6130.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
這個部分都是台灣急需要去解決的選舉政治文化它比較不是法律面的問題所以這個部分在未來希望三位委員能夠如果順利進去的話我評審而論他們的法學素養相當好能夠更兼顧政治面的那個部分讓台灣的選舉走向一個嘉年華會大家非常快樂的去投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6130.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6157.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
也保障了選民的各種權益的問題謝謝謝謝謝正瑜教授第二次的發言我們想我們這一次的公聽會主要是給三位被提名的一些意見那中選會目前列席的官員就是聽取各位的意見沒有做回應謝謝教授那還有沒有其他專家學者想要第二次發言謝謝那我們請吳景清教授謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6163.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6176.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我要提的意見都是對立法院這邊就是說因為這個書面資料實在是太缺乏了如果以後應該類似的這個人事的那個同意權的行使 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6177.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6203.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
是不是有可能呢因為各黨都有做問卷嘛那是不是有可能提事前提給我們專家而不是說我只收到一個某一個政黨的這個問卷那因為我覺得這個問卷很重要因為它比較具體因為如果是只是這個這種書面資料這種我覺得都是有點在做好像那個學生在做作文一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6204.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6229.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
有的時候意義不大啦那我認為各黨提出的這個問卷的提問我可以看出什麼看出第一個你政黨是不是認真看待這個事情到底是要怎樣很抽象的問一些跟這個書面資料一樣的問題還是說很具體的針對一些他目前中學需要而且有針對很重要大家很關心的議題要他回答這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6229.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6249.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
就各政黨的從提問中我可以看出你是不是認真對待再來就是說對這些被提名的你是不是認真作答的問題那基本上你說當然也可以虛硬還是可以打高空式的虛無缺乏的描述一些創意原則但沒有關係至少我看出那個態度嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6250.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6277.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
因為如果你打高空的話在某種程度上表示就是說你只是為了要同意所以都不得罪人那我反而覺得你缺乏獨立性所以這個是我對於這個有關各黨問卷因為我真的是看不出來所以我要再抱怨一下然後有關是不是有可能立法院這邊針對這個事至少立法院這邊是不是有一個統一的一個問卷比方說三個政黨討論出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6278.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6296.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
一個問卷然後呢就全部給那個至少提供給我們這個東西啦那有幾次呢那麼迫切性的剛才有幾次提到我很在意的有關的那個公投提交的問題有關中選會到底可不可以做實質審查因為如果你做你做實質審查的話你就可以一次大比大法官還大 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6298.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6311.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
所以基本上這個是一個問題,尤其是立法院提案因為立法院它也是一個民意的機關,它有直接的民主性那中選會你有民主性嗎?你為什麼可以做直接的審查?我覺得這個就被聽了這段應該要認真的回復這個問題,謝謝好謝謝吳景興教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6321.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6338.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
好 謝謝在場如果沒有委員要再提出意見的話針對本次公聽會做以下結論非常感謝各位學者專家提供寶貴的意見將作為日後審查本人是同意案的參考今天所有出席人員的發言跟提供書面的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6340.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6360.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
給級委員所提供的書面資料列入記錄並刊登立法院公報外也會做成公聽會的報告移送移交本院全體委員會及今天所有除列席人員參考再次感謝各位的參與謝謝大家謝謝本次公聽會到此結束吳教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6366.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6366.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
謝謝,謝謝各位 |