| IVOD_ID |
17473 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17473 |
| 日期 |
2026-05-28 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-26-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
12 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-05-28T08:31:02+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-05-28T14:04:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:32:58 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6856694acf01e408a3a2042dc10dca82677601341028818003d2946c14c9db9db5c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-05-28T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查
一、國民黨黨團擬具「失智症基本法草案」案。
二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「失智症基本法草案」案。
三、委員林月琴等19人擬具「失智症基本法草案」案。
【僅詢答】【第三案如經復議則不予審查】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:02 - 14:04:00 |
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1746.133 |
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1752.799 |
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現在開會請準備報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員11人以主法定人數請議事委員宣讀三次會議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1756.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1779.725 |
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立法院第十一届第五會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第十一次全體委員會議事錄時間115年5月18日九十三十五分至十四十四八分115年5月20日九十一分至十四十二十一分115年5月21日九十二四分至十二十四十分地點群縣老八零一會議室出席委員邱惠祿等十四位委員列席委員張志倫等十位委員請教委員廖偉祥委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1780.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1807.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
列席官員5月18日、20日、21日均由環境部部長彭啟明及各相關酒館機關代表、主席林昭吉委員略請5月18日報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄、議事錄確定討論事項審查或繼續審查行政院函情審議廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案案等24案本日會議經委員張志文及林月琴說明提案指去由環境部資源循環署署長賴寅說明由委員提出8份修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1808.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1830.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
決議一 廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案等24案審查完具內容如審查結果並按理據審查報告提報院會討論 院會討論時有零召集委員會請補充說明不需交黨團協商二 本法案條次條文中援引條次及法制用語調整授權一事人員整理相關立法說明授權行政單位提供審查結果請委員參閱 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1835.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1854.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
5月20日及5月21日讨论事项一继续审查中华民国115年中央政府总预算关于环境部主管预算二继续审查中华民国115年中央政府总预算这项市及县市政府一般性补助款环境部主管预算决议审查完据内容审查结果审查结果一公预算部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1855.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1875.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
一 税入部分第二款 罰款及賠償收入第一九零項 環境部九百萬兩千元 照列第一九一項 汽油變遷署二三萬三千元 照列第一九二項 資源循環署三十六萬五千元 照列第一九三項 化學物質管理署二九萬六千元 照列第一九四項 環境管理署七百萬 照列第一九五項 國家環境研究院六百萬 照列 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1876.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1895.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
第三款规费收入第五八项环境部四千两百八十万三千元照列第五九项资源循环数十九万照列第106项化学物质管理数两千三百五十一万一千元照列第161项国际环境研究院两千三百五十九万六千元照列第四款财产收入第203项环境部六十万七千元照列第204项 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1896.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1924.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
7后面签署无列数第205项化学物质管理署6千元照列第206项环境管理署16万照列第207项国家环境研究员120万3千元照列第7款其他收入第201项环境部861万8千元照列第202项资源循环署35000元照列第203项化学物质管理署20万2000元照列第204项环境管理署199万3000元照列第205项国家环境研究员350万照列20岁初部分第19款环境部主管白安 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1925.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1940.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
本款提案已按保留送院會處理第一項環境部原列14億4915萬6千元簡列業務費向下委辦費500萬第一目科技發展向下環境科學及技術之研究70萬元科目自行調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1941.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1960.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
第二幕一般行政向下基本行政工作維持五十萬科目自行調整前接科目向下設備及投資及汰換副首長電動公務車輛十萬元第三幕綜合企劃及管制考核向下政策規劃及考核中業務費之大陸地區旅費三萬八千元該幕向下生活轉型環標管理一百五十萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1961.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1978.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
及国际合作永续发展33万2千元科目均自行调整第四幕空气品质保护及噪音管制向下移动空气污染源防治50万元该幕向下噪音振动及飞鼠原子能游离辐射管制100万元科目均自行调整 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1980.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2006.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
第五目水質保護向下水污染防止含質性河川污染削減計畫並強化全國水質管理與污染防治措施50萬元科目自行調整七第六目環境科技環境資訊科技50萬元科目自行調整該目向下環境資料治理及智慧應用100萬元以上共計減料1167萬元其餘均照列改列為14億3748萬6千元本項提案就按保留送院會處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2008.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2032.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
本項通過決議九十四項第二項氣候變遷署原列三億零一百六十二萬五千元檢列第二目科技發展一百萬元科目自營調整區域均照列改列為三億零六十二萬五千元本項通過決議三十三項第三項資源循環署原列九億三千八百八十二萬三千元檢列第一目科技發展項下淨零排放科技一百萬元第三目資源循環及廢棄物管理一百五十萬元科目自營調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2033.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2047.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
以上公积250万元,其余均照列改列为9亿3622万3千元,本项提案二案保留,送院会处理。本项通过决议三七项,第四项,化学物质管理署原列16亿2112万4千元,简列。 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2049.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2067.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
第一幕科技发展向下化学物质科学研究五十万元科目自行调整第三幕化学物质管理也五百五十万元含其向下综合规划五十万元科目自行调整以上供给减内六百万元其余均照列改列为十六亿一千五百一十二万四千元科目均自行调整本项通过决议是七项 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2068.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2081.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
第五项环境管理署16亿6563万7千元简列一媒体政策及业务宣导费70万元二环境管理项下美职环境推动计划50万元及同幕项下科目均自行调整 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2085.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2103.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
以上共計減利170萬元其餘均照列改例為16億6363萬7千元本項提案25案保留送院會處理本項通過決議三項第六項國家環境研究院原列7億1736萬7千元減列第一幕科技發展300萬元科目進行調整第三幕 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2104.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2117.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
環境研究113萬韓派員出國計劃33萬科目自行調整一項工具檢列413萬其餘均照列改列為7億1323萬7千元本項提案一案保留送約會處理本項通過決議15項 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2120.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2139.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
第二十七款直辖市及縣市政府第十項一般性補助款環境部主管員列二十一六千兩百七三萬三千元檢列第三目一般性環境保護補助環境管理署三十萬元其餘均招類改列為二十一六千兩百四三萬三千元本項通過決議項二基金預算部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2140.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2162.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
非營業預算一特別收入基金環境保護基金業務計劃依據基金來源及用途審查結果隨同調整二基金來源用途給予處基金來源一百三四一四千九百六十八萬五千人配合一百一十五年度莊政府總預算審議結果檢列環境部單位預算空氣品質保護及噪音管制向下移動空氣污染源防止五十萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2163.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2187.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
原并同调整简列空气污染防治基金向下政府拨入收入之公库拨款收入50万元其均造列改列134亿4918万5千元二基金用途原列116亿6497万3千元简列空气污染防治基金向下空气污染防治计划之空气品质监测50万元科目自营调整配合115年度庄政府总预算审议结果简列环境部单位预算 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2188.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2206.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
空气品质保护及噪音管制向下移动空气污染源防治50万元原并同简列空气污染防治基金向下空气污染防治计划之地方政府执行空气污染防治工作之会费捐助补助分摊照护救济与交流活动费内捐助补助与奖助50万元 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2208.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2224.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
自由回收管理基金向下自由回收管理計劃100萬元科目自行調整土壤及地下水污染整治基金向下土壤及地下水污染整治計劃500萬元科目自行調整水污染防治基金向下水污染防治計劃之水污染防治及水體水質改善50萬元科目自行調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2225.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2243.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
温室气体管理基金向下因应气候变迁计划至温室气体摆放管理100万元前期计划至气候变迁调试任性建构50万元科目自营调整以上工具减列900万元其余均照列改列为116亿5597万3000元本期剩余原列是7亿8471万2000元增列850万元 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2246.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2258.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
改列為十七億九千三百二十一萬兩千元卸小工庫零元照列提案一案保留送院會處理通過決議三十六項信託基金部分資源回收管理基金信託基金部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2259.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2280.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
基金运用计划依据收支于初波补等项之审查结果随同调整总收入78亿3279万7千元照列总支出69亿3845万2千元照列本期剩余8亿9434万5千元照列通过决议三项二清洁人员执行职务死亡寄住基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2281.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2300.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
基金应用计划依据收支于出拨部等项之涉查结果随同调整总收入264万9千元照列总支出553万5千元照列本期短处288万6千元照列通过决议两项继续审查环境部含送财团法人环境资源研究发展基金会等4家财团法人115年度预算书案 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2301.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2316.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
决议全案审查完据内容如审查结果拟据审查报告提报院会讨论院会讨论前去教党团协商院会讨论时有零召集文阅请补充说明审查结果财团法人环境资源研究发展基金会115年度预算书 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2318.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2339.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
1.工作计划部分2.收入支出给予处部分3.不动产产房及设备及投资不动产投资五列数4.资金运用部分1.收入支出不动产产房及设备及投资性不动产投资等项之审查结果随同调整其余均照列2.财团法人环境及发展基金会115年度预算书案工作计划部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2340.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2360.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
因依据收入支出不动产产房及设备及投资性不动产投资及资金运用等项审查结果随同调整收入支出及余出部分收入总额一亿两千七百二十五万五千元照列支出总额减列奖金二十一万七余均照列改列为一亿两千五百四六万四千元本期剩余 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2362.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2384.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
整列二十一万其余均照列改例为一百七九万一千元三不动产厂房设备及投资不动性不动产投资照列是资金运用部分依据收收入支出不动产厂房及设备及投资不动产投资等项制审查结果最终调整三财团法人环境全保障基金会一百十五年度预算数万 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2385.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2413.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
工作計劃部分依據收入支出不動產廠房及設備及投資不動產投資及資金運用等項之審查結果隨同調整收入支出及輿出部分均照列3.不動產投資部分6萬元照列4.資金運用部分依據收入支出不動產廠房及設備及投資性不動產投資等項之審查結果隨同調整4.財團法人大課堪環境永續發展基金會115年度預算書案 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2416.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2440.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
工作计划部分依据收入支出不动产厂房设备及投资性不动产投资及资金运用等项制审查结果随同调整二收入支出给予处部分均照列三不动产厂房设备及投资性不动产投资无列数四资金运用因基于收入支出不动产厂房及设备及投资性不动产投资等项制审查结果随同调整宣读完毕 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2445.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2467.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
請問委員會上次議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處?沒有,先確定,先確定,再複製,再複製,沒有,再複製啊,說用複製的方式處理好,議事錄確定,信仰委員提出複製動議,共有兩案,我們主要來處理,請議事委員先讀第一案,第二案內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2468.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2496.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
针对本会第11次全体委员会议讨论事项继续审查环境部韩诵财团法人环境资源研究发展基金会等四家财团法人115年度预算书案所作之决议提出复议请委员会立即处理复议动议并请另作决议为决议全案审查完据拟据审查报告提报院会讨论院会讨论前不需交党团协商院会讨论时有零召集委员愿请补充说明二针对本会 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2499.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2506.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
第一案 請問在場委員有無異議好 照案通過請宣讀第二案提案內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2509.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2534.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
針對本會第十一次全體委員會議討論事項中華民國一百十五年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管預算第五項環境管理署中關於表述十五案所作之決議提出覆議請委員會立即處理覆議動議並請另作決議如下如復見提案委員林淑芬王振旭陳盈楊耀黃秀芳劉建國宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2536.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2562.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
好 請問在場委員有無異議無異議 詐案通過本人會議一層為審查國民黨黨團 臺灣民眾黨黨團及委員林映晴等19人凝聚施治政基本法草案等3案接著介紹在場委員王振旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2565.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2593.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
林淑芬委員邱惠若委員王玉明委員介紹列席官員 衛福部部長施崇良長照司司長祝建芳醫事司專委心理健康司司長陳柏熙醫事司專委郭威中國民健康署副署長魏喜倫 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2595.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2621.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
中央健保署副署長張宇斌社交署檢任市長魏子榮國衛院副研究員鄭婉如勞動部就業就聘師副市長王金榮不中介紹政務次長呂健德 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2626.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2652.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
勞發署組長劉玉儀司法院懲戒廳法官何孝剛行政院內政衛福勞動處處長林黃橋中生教育師專委宋文茜學情教育署科長魏瑞成 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2655.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2670.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
警政署預防科科長莊銘雄證件期貨局專委陳湘琴保險局副組長賴淳清 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2681.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2687.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
现在请提案委员说明提案要只能为委员两分钟请王毓民委员代表国民党党团说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2692.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2720.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
主席各位委員大家好我想今天我們提出來這個失智症基本法是非常的重要而且關鍵大家都知道日本在2023年就已經立法立法的目的就是要確保政策的延續性跟落實那很遺憾我們看到行政院院長卓榮泰他前幾天在接受委員詢答的時候他竟然說失智症只是一種症狀 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2722.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2729.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
這個被失智症團體痛批這個一個院長對於失智症的認知如此的淺薄根本不理解失智症它影響的範圍是非常的大的而且它的解決是需要跨部會層級大家共同來面對的但是我們看到卓榮泰院長他對於失智症的認知如此的淺薄跟錯誤這個令人非常的遺憾 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2751.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2770.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
更令人遺憾而且要提出譴責的是今天行政院的書面報告他告訴大家什麼他可以透過既有的政策來推動就好覺得自己做得很好都不用改進按照現行做就好也就是行政院是反對立法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2772.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2787.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
這件事情真的要被予以譴責大家知道這個整個失智症的問題它的複雜度真的是非常的高它跟一般的失能其實是不一樣的那我們看到我們現在的失智症已經是逼近40萬了 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2788.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2808.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
再過15年後2041年已經來到68萬的人口這當中牽涉到的包括整個醫療長照金融防詐法律保護司法程序走私諧訓交通安全還有年輕型的這些失智症的工作權通通都是跨部會治理的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2809.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2827.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
但是今天能夠跨部會的行政院竟然態度如此的消極竟然反對立法這個我們要予以譴責在國民黨我們非常重視這個是日正的立法所以我們提出來的版本裡面呢有幾大重點第一個 明定中央主管機關的這個權責由衛福部主責行政院來跨籌來統籌 來跨部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2835.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2841.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
來統籌各部會現在的這個失智症的議題都在衛福部底下這個只是一個副司長來主持這個根本民間團體反應完全沒有辦法跨部會整合這個層級太低所以我們未來要跨部會來處理這件事情第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2854.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2879.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
直接立法之後由國會來確立這些政策可以穩定的推進每四年提出這個基本計畫每年5月31號前這個行政院要跟立法院提出年度報告我們要確保台灣在預防失智症協助失智症患者還有家庭這件事情我們是超前部署而且我們是用很大的資源來改進 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2881.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2910.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
第三就是給予司法的保障還有司法程序的部分必須明確而且呢相關的司法人員也都應該要接受訓練第四家庭照顧者支持入法我們看到失智症患者的家屬其實是被加辛苦的因為他們有行動能力然後他也會有自己的情緒然後在很多事情的溝通上面其實他們是更費盡心力了所以這一塊給家這個家庭照顧者支持也一定要入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2910.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2927.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
第五就是決策支援跟預例安排我們也不要把這個失智症患者這個標籤化跟汙名化事實上他們在前期的時候是可以去尊重他的意願偏好跟生活脈絡權益保障的情況底下去溝通然後去達成協議的那這一些都希望透過立法的過程我們可以給予更周延的一些政策上面的指引然後跟給這一些失智症者本身還有家屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2939.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2959.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
更好的一個照顧所以最後我要講今天的這個召委排案開始啟動這樣的審查我們覺得是很關鍵的一步那希望行政院不要再消極也不要再阻擋今天這個也不只是國民黨提出這個版本民眾黨也提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2960.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2983.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
民進黨也有委員提出版本所以我覺得為了防止這個失智症這個相關家屬的這些壓力還有對於當事人的照顧我覺得我們的政府一定是要整合所有的力量透過立法來確保我們的政策的延續性跟落實性 以上謝謝好 謝謝王一鳴委員現在請邱惠璐委員代表台灣民政黨黨團說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2992.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3009.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
主席還有各位先進大家好那我想我們台灣民眾黨提出失智症基本法我想都是因為我們知道失智症的情形非常的嚴重那根據國際失智協會的統計全球每三人就有一名 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3011.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3038.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
是失智症的患者 那反觀台灣呢 我們台灣的數字也不遑多讓不遑多讓 台灣已經正式邁入超高齡的社會那失智症的盛行率高達7.99%那這些數字不是冰冷的數字 它是一個讓我們看得觸目驚心的數字因為這個數字背後它隱含著是失智者本身的衝擊還有家庭照顧者在 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3039.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3057.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
在經濟上在照顧上的一個負擔那我們都知道失智症的照護跟防治它涉及非常多的層面有醫療有公衛有長照有社會福利金融住宅交通法務警政 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3058.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3080.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
教育勞動等等的事項那這些事項應該要點現面的關照才能夠提出一個面面俱到的政策進而才能夠健全我們失智症的一個防治跟照護的體系但是很可惜的我們國家總是以國家計畫行政計畫來規範這麼重要的失智症政策那效力未接不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3081.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3100.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
可能也會讓政策在執行上欠缺力道所以我們需要一步法律來規範來把效率位階提高為的就是讓失智症的政策能夠永續的發展下去提升它的延續性除此之外關於失智症的防治中央部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3101.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3129.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
護踢皮球 管理失智症患者的困境還有就是地方執行跟中央監督這種的合作模式成效不彰然後還有一些失智症的一些資源上有零碎化片段化的一個困境 沒有建到一個完整體系的架構那欠缺一個完整體系的架構 也讓我們失智症患者包括他的家屬在防治上 在照顧上出現 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3130.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3144.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
整個照護上的一個缺口跟漏洞所以我們台灣民眾黨提出一個失智症的基本法我們關照的面向非常的廣有我們剛剛提到的醫療長照社會福利金融交通法務 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3145.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3172.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
警政 教育 勞全這些我們都關照到了那在醫療的部分我們主張要長期預防跟長期的介入那在交通跟住宅上我們主張要滿足失智症患者的生活需求還有提供便利性給他們而且我們還積極地來進行一些教育宣導讓國人能夠認識失智症避免國人對失智症產生一種汙名化的印象 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3173.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3187.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
所以呢我們希望透過這樣的措施也提供失智者的人格尊嚴因為避免被汙名化那也提供失智症他的社會產育提升他的生活品質跟人格尊嚴那關於失智症 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3188.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3205.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
的政策跟措施的相關管考部分我們相信數字治理的理念所以我們主張應該要推動失智症的專案研究計畫了解失智症的成因失能程度對生活的衝擊等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3205.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3223.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
的層面而且我們主張要建立資料庫每三年定期的檢討一次評估實質政策還有措施的一個成效性那除此之外我們也主張說中央政府跟地方政府應該要整合資源應該要串聯服務而且要借盡國外的 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3225.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3247.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
經驗跟國際交流提升失智症防護還有措施的一個完整性還有資訊的一個最新性那除此之外我們知道失智症他的照顧花費其實非常的巨大尤其隨著失智的人口越來越提升那當然失智症現在照顧經費是來自於長照基金那避免去擠壓長照基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3249.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3267.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
產生排擠效應那也怕長照基金的不服使用會讓失智症的照護在推動上出現了打折的成效所以我們主張應該去成立一個失智症的一個基金專款專用然後健全失智症政策的一個推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3268.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3272.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
好那最後呢我想呢 失智症與其家屬呢常常面臨到一個問題就是一個人生病然後全家面對那我在這邊想要跟政府講的就是說失智症絕對不是一個人一個家庭的困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3284.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3292.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
不是一個人一個家庭的問題我們覺得整個政府不管是中央或地方都應該動起來家喻的協助那我們應該把零碎的這些照顧措施把它整合成一個全面的完整的體系那我們期待透過這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3301.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3316.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
施治症基本法的通過 其中有完整的一些政策跟措施能夠讓施治症患者有尊嚴的過著生活 不會徬徨孤單的走在這一條艱辛的道路上 以上說明 謝謝謝謝邱會議員 現在請林議員請召委說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3325.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3352.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
部長還有各位同仁我們都知道台灣已經在2025年正式邁入到超高齡社會甚至到125年的話事實上是極高齡的一個社會所以一估到了2026年的話私人人口大概也逼近了40萬人那2030年大概突破到47萬所以事實上私自政事實上涉及到長照的一個制度跟家庭照顧跟社會支持人權保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3352.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3362.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
甚至是整個國家未來治理的重要課題所以必須要用到國家層級的一個視野來支持我們雖然有失智症的政策綱領3.0我過去也擔任 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3364.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3383.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
我們後生會的私製政策召集人來持續推動政策也有跨部會的行動方案過去幾年確實累積了一定的基礎這點我也肯定行政部門的一個努力但目前大多還是以行政計畫為主制度穩定性跨部會整合以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3383.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3407.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
法律的保障還有要強化的空間尤其未來私自鎮的人口持續增加後牽扯的不是只有衛福部而且是包括司法教育勞動金融住宅跟交通等部會都一起要面對雖然聯合國已經還沒有公布下一階段的新政策可是我認為我們不能只看聯合國的有沒有要求而是來決定台灣要不要做因為台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3408.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3434.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
面對的狀況比其他國家更迫切我們是全球高齡化速度最快的國家之一失智症人口增加速度也是非常的快我們必須要有自己的政策的前瞻性而不是等到問題全面爆發之後才開始補漏洞所以我認為不管最後是推動失智症的基本法還是進一步提出更完整的失智症綱領核心重點都只有一個就是如何讓台灣的失智症 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3434.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3457.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
國家戰略可以更穩定更長期而且有系統的持續布局提前面對到我們即將來到的失智症的海嘯所以因此我提出嚴明失智症的基本法的方向那卓榮泰院長也認為可以討論修法的必要性所以希望作為未來台灣長期推動失智症防治照護社會支持跟人權保障的重要法治基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3458.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3465.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
請大家也是針對今天的討論我覺得有能夠在詢答的時候可以提出各方的一些想法 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3478.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3506.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
主席各位委員那今天陳大願那麼就失智政基本法有黨團跟委員的版本等三案那麼我們就此議題來向委員會來做說明敬請各位委員指教那第一個就是如同各位委員所提到的那我國在去年邁入了超高齡社會那麼推估了這個失智政的 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3507.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3526.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
病人大概是近40萬那麼失智症的問題隨著社會結構高齡化那麼問題會越去嚴重那因此本部在102年開始就跨部會推動有失智症防治照護政策綱領106年則函班失智症防治照護政策綱領及行動方案2.0從2018年到2025年那麼已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3532.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3544.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
結合四個部會共同推動滾動修正從107年那麼開始推動施治政府防治照護政策綱領到114年已經累計投入了509億元的經費從今年開始115年則 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3552.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3572.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
進入施治症防治照護政策綱領3.0並入了長照3.0的計畫當中自115年到124年更擴大結合行政院一共有12個部會除本部外上包含勞動部、教育部、交通部、內政部、法務部、文化部、經濟部、經管會、退伍會 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3576.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3595.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
原住民委員會還有國科會等那麼並且在行政院層級成立長照推動小組由政府院長親自督導並進行跨部會的整合那麼以提升這個私自防治政策的統籌層級至行政院那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3597.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3617.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
這個跟今天委員的提案精神其實是相互呼應至於近期本部在失智症照護的資源投入部分包含對於疑似失智症我們有設立了失智共同照護中心共133處來協助疑似失智個案能夠盡速就醫確診提供諮詢服務跟轉介 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3622.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3642.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那麼對於及輕度或輕度上具有行動能力的失智個案那麼則是推動了社區的失智據點目前共佈建558處那麼來協助及輕度跟輕度失智個案的認知促進緩和失智等等相關的活動並提供家庭照顧訓練及支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3645.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3665.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那麼至於較嚴重的有BPSD的失智個案呢那麼則採分級醫療的精神除了推動這個全責型失智社區服務據點之外那麼也結合醫療體系來提供對於這個困難照顧失智個案跟家庭支持的服務目前全責型據點共有22處 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3668.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3696.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
至於更嚴重具有失能的這個個案那麼2到8級目前在長照3.0裡面已經納入那麼全年齡的失智症照顧對於早發性失智50歲以下那麼也都已經納入在長照服務的對象至於需要24小時照顧者那麼如團體家屋或者是住宿型機構那麼也都符合住宿機構的這個給付服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3698.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3723.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那麼至於設置這個失智證基本法草案的可行性那麼因為這個草案涉及到跨院層級兩個院那麼以及跨部會及地方政府的跨局處全責那麼對於這個各全責機關的角色任務執行分工資源配置等等那麼需要進行跨部會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3723.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3748.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
溝通討論那麼也讓這一個未來在計畫的推動這個能夠更周延那麼基本上呢那麼目前呢我們在失智症照護跟權益保障上已經採取國家計畫跟立法並行的雙軌模式除了前面所述的這個長期照護10年計畫3.0設有失智症防治照護政策官綱領3.0專章之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3750.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3772.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那麼在相關的法律部分也含納了長符法身心障礙權益保障法還有老符法及精神陌生法以及病人自主權利法等等的權益保障對象至於這個委員版本未來再進入審查的時候呢那麼我們會適時的再表達一些意見那麼尊重立法院的審議結果以上報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3778.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3802.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
謝謝石崇良部長現在開始詢問做以下宣告有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報本會委員詢問時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如果有書面質詢請上會前提出一期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘本日不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員離任前召委進行詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3811.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3814.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
主席麻烦有请我们的市部长有请市部长 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3818.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3845.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
林委員長部長早我想失智症議題的嚴重性我相信部長非常的清楚那因為從我擔任我們的後生會的失智症的政策召集人以來我就不斷的去提醒也建議衛福部不能只把失智症視為單一疾病或者是醫療問題它是涉及到人口的結構長照的制度家庭照顧施法制度跟人權保障跟國家發展的重要政策議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3846.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3867.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那當然我每次在我們在提到說我們在委員會提到說要來做我們的施政基本法的時候當然你就會講說有我們接下來本來就有施政的政策綱領2.0現在要到3.0可是我們看到3.0內容大概都是2.0的一個延續而且內容仍然遵循我們聯合國施政 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3868.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3895.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
行動計畫七大策略的確你們也達到七大策略而且甚至做得不錯可是因為聯合國認為這七大策略並沒有顯著的成效所以要繼續延續著做可是如果在沒有基本法的架構下那政策綱領是否會要繼續延續是否足夠能夠接觸未來越來越多的失智症患者我想部長也應該知道125年就即將進入到極高齡的社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3897.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3903.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
130年我們的失智症者如果推估下來大概將近到47萬如果140年的話會突破80萬的這樣一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3907.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3936.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
失智海嘯就要來臨了所以我們認為說臺灣到底有能力要去等聯合國的這樣的一個狀況嗎為什麼因為臺灣超高齡社會的速度是全球最快的出生率是全球最低的失智症照顧的問題不能等到聯合國的公佈指引才能指標那我們要面對到臺灣社會這種形態提出更具體針對與失智症的建立更穩定根據延續性的國家戰略架構 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3938.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3957.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
而且還不見得能到底能不能支撐未來5年10年甚至更長期的制度的一個需求我覺得避免我們政策隨行政措施調整而出現斷裂或者碎片化所以想問部長你是不是可以回去盤點一下到底有沒有需要這個基本法那個必要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3959.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3978.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
我想這個確實這個失智的問題會越來越嚴重那麼我們過去在2.0的時代失智症綱領2.0的確實是按照聯合國當時候的頒布的這些指引來訂定那後來當然聯合國也評估過全球的 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3979.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3993.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
這個落實的情形並不是很理想所以他把他的這個政策本來預期的目標往後延了把它延到2031年但是我們並沒有因此停下來因為前面的那個可是你們3.0到現在3.0 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3996.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4007.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
今年大概我們就會在這個月下個月我們就會發佈了那我們會繼續納入這個長照3.0裡面繼續來推動會進入到3.0的這個方案裡頭來這中間事實上還是斷掉的一些時間當然我們還是會持續的來盤點來推進還是會的因為我剛剛也提過我們125年就將進入到極高極高齡化的社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4026.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4043.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
所以我覺得這真的尤其是我們是出生率低然後長輩也逐漸多的時候那這個失智的這個問題就一定是必要有國家完整的政策來處理好那司法院也在嗎今天是可不可以請主席請司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4047.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4055.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我想討論跟失智者權利非常密切相關的因為最近也因為馬前總統風波又引起的失智症監護 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4057.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4082.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
就是市政監護府的制度的一個問題其實這近幾年來國際上不斷在討論監護府的制度是否符合我們的身權公約的精神尤其是失智者的一個監護府的制度可能跟CRPD精神事實上存在落差問題不是在於要不要保護失智者而是究竟我們是在支持當事人做決定還是在替當事人做決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4083.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4100.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
這我想這也是生權法討論重點之一所以我們回顧一下台灣在2014年使CRPD正式國內法化的我相信我在座部長也應該知道就是誰簽署的就是馬前總統所以我們就來看CRPD在CRPD第12條的 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4102.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4131.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
講的是法律之前平等明確指出身心障礙者在生活各面向應享有跟其他人平等的法律上的權利國家也應該提供必要的協助使其能夠行使權利而不是因為能力受限就直接由他人作為完全取代其決定所以另外CRPD的第五條也明定不得因身心障礙者而受到差別待遇強調平等跟不歧視的原則但目前我國在這個制度下 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4132.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4156.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
一旦受監護宣告就可能全面喪失行為能力許多財產法律甚至生活上的重要決定都直接要由他人代理所以這樣的一個全面性固定式的限制方式我先問部長有沒有符合CRPD第12條所強調的比例原則跟個別化的支持原則那也等一下也請我們司法院也說明一下來部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4158.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4176.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
當然在這個CRPD的精神裡頭那麼對於這個如果是失智症患者他已經進入到某個程度的失能狀態那麼當然應該也要按照我們這個可是前期的時候並不是這樣如果說一旦是 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4178.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4202.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
應該是協助他怎麼去做決定而不是全面的幫他做決定不是嗎那就會變成不符合我們CRPD第12條的一個精神那也請司法院我再詳細問一下司法院目前法院在監護宣告案件當中除了醫療鑑定之外如何確認本人真實意願是否有支持決策或是意願表達的機制司法院這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4203.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4226.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
跟委員報告如果目前在要進行監護宣告或輔助宣告之前目前我們的法律有明定說法官應該要在應該要委請專業的精神科醫生來做鑑定那在鑑定的時候法官也必須要親自的去詢問這個受監護宣告或受輔助宣告的這個當事人那在精神科醫師面前去對他做直接的意願的確認跟詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4228.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4254.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
這是法律有明定的 目前我們實務上也都確實有在進行這樣的程序可是失任狀態跟一般那種失能的不太一樣 它是漸進式的所以如果現今依然是全面固定式的監護制度的話司法院是否已啟動成年監護的制度的一個檢討 因為目前這個失任狀態就是跟一般的不太一樣那是否朝向依個案需求來做部分限制 而不是全面剝奪能力方向來演繹 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4256.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4275.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
跟我們報告因為目前監護宣告跟輔助宣告的這個實體法的制度是訂定在民法總則裡面這個民法總則的規定並不是本院主管的那所以這個目前關於這個如果當事人如果受了監護宣告他的法律能力法律上的行為能力會完全喪失這件事情也是定在民法裡面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4276.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4294.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
那這個部分我們司法院這邊我們能處理的就是我們會依照法律的規定來進行審理那當然我們做了監護宣告或輔助宣告裁定之後的那個效果也會依照法律的規定來發生但是至於說監護宣告或輔助宣告制度要不要去做修改這個可能不是本院所執掌的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4295.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4309.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
因為我為什麼會問這個因為以馬前總統近期引發的社會討論來看一個人即使還能夠表達意願做出判斷安排自己生活如果進入全面固定式的監護制度的話會不會原本還存在的一些權利也 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4310.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4326.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
起被制度拿走像德國日本韓國等國的那個制度的改革方向已逐步逐步的由全面限制能力轉向支持決策模式所以我認為有必要要進行全面的檢討來修正比較符合我們生權公約的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4326.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4342.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那司法院請回那部長繼續留著接下來我們就想針對失智據點的分流政策來討論因為分流政策原本的目的是希望中度以上的失智或中度以下的失能的失智者 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4343.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4369.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
能從失智據點到我們立案的長照機構來提升照顧的一個層級讓照顧的品質能真正升級這個政策方向我相信大家都支持可是回顧我們看114年年底官方的數據實際執行情況跟政策原先預定的目標有似乎很大的落差因為資料顯示共有4246名的失智者因制度調整離開原本的熟悉的失智據點 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4370.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4386.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
我想部長也知道事實上應該讓他是在他最熟悉的環境就像離開 可真正依照政策能夠成功銜接到日照中心的只有730人佔了17.2%即使把居家服務 住宿機構等一併納入計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4389.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4407.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
進入到長照體系的也只有33.5%換句話說大約三分之二的失智者在離開原本服務後並沒有持續進入到我們的後續的長照服務體系所以部長這樣的結果真的是符合你當初政策原先規劃的目標嗎這個為什麼會離開我是不是請那個長照司司長來說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4411.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4434.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
好 委員這邊跟委員 其實剛剛委員一剛開始有提到 主要我們失智症是不可逆所以當他的情況越來越重 失智越重的時候 會伴隨失能那我們這邊的政策 主要考量是 因為我們的據點其實我們設定目標是預防他這個認知促進 我剛剛講三分之二的私人就離開原本服務之後就 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4435.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4464.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
不是不是不是不是委員說的這樣那事實上事實上這個我們目前這個屬於0.5CD20.5到1分的這個部分佔六成大概40萬裡面的六成那目前進到我們的500多處的失智據點的人數大概只有不到1萬人所以我們才覺得如果已經是失能四級的要讓他分流到我們的日照中心那邊其實有專業的人也有無障礙的環境空間其實對失智症的照顧會更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4465.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4480.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
市長如果不是我講的那樣的話 那我覺得很特別就是你們數據呈現的就是這樣狀態 因為時間關係 委員有一些誤會我們會後再跟委員說明 部長如果這三分之二未成功轉型的個案衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4482.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4504.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
如果障礙者究竟是什麼到底是部分中度失智者未達失能的標準因此進不了長照體系嗎否則為什麼後來他們沒有順利那還是這部分的地區的日照中心的量能不足還是現行的日照服務模式本身沒有真正符合失智者的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4505.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4526.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
所以我希望衛福部能夠對這結果分析然後重新檢視現在的整個的收案跟結案的條件是否增加彈性來提出具體的改善措施的時程所以希望部長這個多久可以給我一個報告我想跟委員說明一下因為這裡有兩個問題我們要釐清一個是失智的程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4527.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4549.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
一個是失能的程度這是兩個不同的分析失智的程度當然我們以CDR來看的話0.5跟1這個是屬於極輕度或輕度的這邊大概是佔65%那麼另外的35%是2以上就中度跟重度的這邊可是跟失能這邊又是另外一種狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4550.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4574.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我們的分級的方式又把它分成八個等級所以這兩個如何去match所以有失智不見的等於有失能那當然剛剛師長講的是說失能四級以上的我們盡量把它導引到我們的這個社區這個日照啦或者是進入到我們的長照體系當然還有一些屬於輕度的我們剛剛也提到希望用失智的共照去減緩它的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4578.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4600.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
這個疾病進程的推進我們來看一下把這兩個做一些matching之後那看看到底我們應該要怎麼樣去分流因為我們看你們數據就是這樣4246名因為你們當初要做這種分流政策然後請他們離開熟悉的獅子巨田然後最後看起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4601.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4626.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
只有那因為三分之二的失智者離開原本的服務就沒有進入到你們認知的說腸道體系我有想知道發生什麼事那就麻煩部長我們來回頭去看剛剛說的這個三分之二他是屬於失能到什麼樣的等級來適當的再麻煩多久那個報告可以給我那個多久我們盤一下一個月可以啦我們一個月我們盤一下好謝謝部長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4629.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4632.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
謝謝林業勤委員 現在請陳金輝委員謝謝主席 各位官員還有委員我也想請時部長請時部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4648.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4672.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
好這位院長史部長因為最近呢呃院長就是行政院長卓榮泰他聽到記者提問說支不支持施治正基本法的草案他的意思是說他就一個症狀的太陽就成立一個所謂的基本法是不是符合整個社會的需求或是整個基本法真正的意義應該用更嚴格的標準來遵守所以你認為院長所說的這句話是對的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4676.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4705.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
應該是這麼說就是說我們現在對於失智症那麼行政院的層級已經非常重視剛剛我在報告裡面也提到我們已經在行政院的層級長照這個小組是由副院長在主持也納入了我們現在的長照把它納入但你的意思是說你們很重視但納入基本法不是很符合邏輯這個是院長的意思這個您認為是嗎應該就是說不論有沒有這個基本法那麼失智症的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4706.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4717.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
跟我們應該要全力的去去關注這個議題去推動納入我們的政策裡面跨部會的協作這個都是一定要做的那如果納入基本法是一種更嚴謹的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4721.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4741.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
這句話你同意嗎因為行政院長質疑一種症狀就提出一個基本法似乎不夠嚴謹那當然你看這邊有跨黨派的委員剛有王玉敏委員林玉琴委員還有兩個黨團以及非常多的民團你也是這樣子認為嗎應該是這麼講就是說當然如果是要立法那當然他需要更嚴謹的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4743.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4769.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
所以你覺得目前他們四個都不夠嚴謹因為他有很多跨部會的這個法訂進去之後那麼對於我們當然要比我們現在以這個國家的這個政策綱領加上目前的各個法規所含納的應該要更具全面性所以他的立法的過程我認為他是需要更嚴謹所以你的意思是說目前這四位你都覺得不夠嚴謹 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4771.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4795.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
還沒有進入到主條我們到時候會來表示一些意見你已經看過了你已經看過了你現在就可以表達了當然有一些道理要不要比如說呢你這個設置一個基金那麼這個基金跟我們目前的資源之間那麼他的互相的這個這個如何搭配啦那另外跟財政基地的相關問題這些都還有還有這個分工 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4798.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4809.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那麼跟我們目前的推動上好沒關係部長這個你應該也知道因為你也去日本考察多次但是日本跟我們同樣面對超高齡社會的問題他們認為這個是超高齡社會下的國家治理問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4815.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4833.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
所以應該不如你所說的你覺得目前這四個版本都不夠嚴謹如果你贊成你就去把它修得更嚴謹才對而不是直接說目前那裡面不管是裁員或者是基金都還有待討論所以目前不做就是看你要不要做而已啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4834.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4858.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
我講的是說在這個過程當中可以更嚴謹所以你的意思是說要有更多的意見你不排除進入足條之後你最後也會接受修得更嚴謹的基本法對 如果進入到足條討論的話我們會來進行我們意見的表達但你們會有自己的版本嗎你們會有自己的版本嗎因為這裡面還有很多是跨部會不是只有衛福部所以需要有更多部會的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4858.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4874.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
最後也因為您的醫學背景嘛所以在這邊也提供這個您也都看得到所以我認為卓榮泰院長他所講述的東西並沒有很貼近那身為衛福部部長你應該去稍微更正拿一些最新的資料給他看因為根據WHO |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4876.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4893.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
每年有五千七百萬人罹患失智症每年新增是一千萬名案例那他是認為他是多種影響大腦的疾病的統稱那其中最多又是阿茲海默所以似乎不如院長所說的這個是單一病症的基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4894.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4921.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
單一病症因為這個失智症呢我想委員也是醫學背景很清楚它是一個症狀表現但是它背後的病因是多重那當然除了這個大家熟悉的阿茲海默症之外那當然也還包含其他的血管性因素那血管性因素造成的就有更多所以我們現在會從前端的防治這些三高啦研究這些都會有影響所以它的因素是多重的再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4922.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4937.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
要問一個最近非常急迫的問題因為幾乎每個週末都有這樣子難過的新聞那影片我就先不播但是呢你會看到非常多的人他是在沒有辦法預期的狀況之下失去他最摯愛的家人或是親屬那這個獨家的問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4941.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4956.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
在這幾年內狂飆所以我們今天其實就是要跟您探討衛福部該負的責任我們就必須要去負我們當然知道說臨檢是內政部交通財處是交通部刑責法務部但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4957.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4976.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
你也知道這個載體就是在電子菸電子菸是你主責的好第一是電子菸這個載體你上次跟我備詢的時候你說電子菸你們認為青少年是越來越低你們自己統計出來的報表跟數據但我等一下給你一些其他的數據再來呢這些新興毒品的成癮問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4977.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4985.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
是不是可以降低他的再犯率這個都是衛福部沒有辦法迴避的責任那接下來我們看一些數據啦這個應該你也都知道了我們從112年到115年他的查緝是335人到去年是8659那5月的時候又讓更大家更驚心動魄因為短短5天是抓到335人 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5000.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5024.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
較去年的同期成長65%連續4天發生毒價造成死亡的車禍那行政院他有一個反毒策略投入這麼多的資源400億喔大家要有感的認為說毒品到底有沒有變少毒價有沒有下降青少年有沒有被保護嘛青少年取得電子菸還有煙彈是不是更難 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5025.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5054.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那這邊我們要看除了剛我講到的數據它越來越多而且到了大家覺得失控的程度並且它是年輕化所以這個你沒有但你可以跟警政署要到他發現說12到17歲涉毒的嫌疑人增加122.6418到23歲也增加47.05表示他大量的往年輕的族群滲透那他們發現說喪失業難在18到23的比例升高的幅度最高 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5055.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5065.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
那我想具體的問兩個問題第一個問題是上次我已經問過你了電子煙你們自己的統計是越來越少你們後來有回去想修改統計的方法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5066.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5087.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
跟委員說明當然這個電子菸在我們當初修正菸害防治法的時候仍然沒有開放我們在這個菸害防治法修的時候讓它允許的是加熱菸同時它需要經過健康風險評估那電子菸的部分現在仍然是非法的所以才需要有這些查緝那麼至於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5089.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5114.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
這個趨勢上是不是如同這樣因為我們的這個菸害的調查就是吸菸行為的調查是一回事那第二個呢 這個是上次你說你是用匿名的問卷去跟學生做訪查可是我們現在隨便上網很多老師就在Threads上抱怨說班上他可能教小學 教國中班上幾個人就有幾個人在吸食電子菸我的意思是說你到底有沒有要去他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5115.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5142.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
真的 真實會出現的樣本數據去做調查嗎你到底有沒有要做這件事情我們是每年都做嘛對 上次我問過你了你說你是給學生匿名問卷你有沒有考慮到學校的附近或是他們常常會去的區域那既然電子業你剛都已經說違法了你其實很簡單的去青少年會出現的地方你就可以查到啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5143.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5164.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
好 這個跟委員說明 我們其實去年開始就已經改變我們的調查方式除了這個過去用問卷的方式之外 剛剛您提的是問卷方式那麼也採取匿名上網的方式 不需要由這個學校去收回啦你說匿名給每一個學生 還是學生來填嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5166.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5194.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
就是抽样完之后他可以上网去匿名不需要还是学生吗你还是只想问学生他有各个年龄层我们在那个没有我就是说你有没有想到要问老师还没下次我们我们明年做的时候再把对象因为我们都是问本人我们问的时候是问本人因为这个是如果你今年做的数据又是降低的话大家会觉得跟主观的体感差距太大了 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5194.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5218.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
應該這樣講因為我們做的叫慎行律你也知道所謂慎行律的定義是什麼當事人對那這是慎行律那跟你剛剛提到的這個是另外一件事情就是去觀察說那學校的老師你發現但是如果你做出來的數據跟謹慎署觀察到的現象不一樣因為你是在這個反讀綱領裡面的其中之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5220.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5232.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
這個是兩回事啦盛行率是盛行率那現在這個是查緝率啦查緝出來的結果是這樣那我也必須說有沒有真的增加還牽涉到你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5234.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5249.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
這個機查的頻率跟你的檢驗方法因為過去的檢驗方法比較沒有現在進步現在檢驗方法更方便我看到了你這兩天有在媒體上說你要修改檢驗方法那你現在就跟大家講一下你要怎麼修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5250.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5266.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
檢驗的方法過去是他有兩次這個標準上呢要不要放得更嚴一點這個是兩回事因為大家知道的代謝是比較快的所以他需要的那個level跟過去說比較長 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5268.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5285.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那个half line比较长的是不一样所以这个需要在科学上再去讨论所以我们要讨论的是第一个是检验方法搭配它的这个标准就是switch hole对对对那个switch hole就是要去调整那你多久以内会宣布因为我们只有在新闻上看到你片段的时候要修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5286.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5305.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
這個FDA會找這個專家還有跨部會因為這個還涉及到法務部跟這個警政署大家會一起來討論那最近跟新建司有沒有開新興毒品還有青少年的這個成癮如何降低他們在範率的會議還是還沒我們那個新建司的司長在是不是跟委員說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5307.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5329.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
跟委員報告這部分我們跟法務部都有定期的會議那在6月會開讀房會報那有關青少年部分就是除了剛剛部長說說明這個檢驗方法的部分提升部分那校園部的防治我們都會定期來進行你好沒有回答到具體的答案因為我們看了一下你們的防治計畫其實你們有跨部會院檢警教衛合作平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5330.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5353.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
花了這麼多的錢 最後沒有看到你具體說你要寫出改變的方法 檢討你的指標喔這個是你的績效指標 就是寫持續辦理新建市市長要不要給我們一個很簡單的結論就是你到底要怎麼強化青少年的毒癮 或者青少年的災犯率或是青少年的戒毒 因為現在新興毒品急速的上漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5355.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5382.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我們會先增加這個辨識就是包括校園內可以辨識因為這很多新的新的毒品他使用的一些產生的症狀產生的中毒的症狀或是一些脫穎或是成癮的狀況可能大家都還不熟悉這是第一個先做一個認知的部分增加這個認識率那第二個會配合這個教育部來做這個校園的宣導做後面的一些防治那你會如何把他們轉接到這個成癮的治療 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5383.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5397.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
那伊托米德就是如同剛剛部長有說明就是他的這個因為他的這個effet是非常短的他通常都是急性中毒的症狀為主所以目前大部分是先到醫院做這個在醫院做中毒處置的時候我們就會從這邊來做轉治 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5398.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5427.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
好那之後我們會跟你要一下數據你具體的改過以後這些人到底人數人次有沒有增加好在這邊也要提醒一下部長這個是你們的電子儀錶板電子煙查氣儀錶板之前是月月會更新到2020年年底就不更新了你們如果不更新的話我們到底要怎麼知道說你們的政策有沒有效要怎麼樣知道電子煙是不是越來越多網路販賣是不是失控你這個什麼時候要恢復 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5428.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5444.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
好 我們立刻回去一個禮拜內通一天內就把它通通更新一天內把它更新然後之後可不可以每個月更新OK OK我們趕快把它補上去因為之前可能是在做網頁更新的時候漏掉了這邊 這個也是你的業務喔你每年查了34家 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5445.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5471.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
次你去做採取結果你看你的採取率就1.42而且大部分集中在左邊有一個3700集中在機場如果你機場把它刪掉的話幾乎採取率不到1%我想問的是你是不是該去的地方沒去是不是用錯方法了這個我們在透過這個中央跟地方的協調會議來推動因為這主要還是在地方查緝為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5473.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5495.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
好我先跟你說因為這個東西也不分中央地方了網路上隨手我可能請助理一兩個小時就可以查到六七十件以上他們現在是公然的販賣而且你看日期是2024年的東西到現在都還沒有被下架喔我希望一個月內跟你要到你具體要怎麼修正稽查電子煙的檢討報告這個可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5497.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5522.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
可以可以我們其實我們在厭害防治法那麼也在修法要強化這個電子平台販賣的查處啦那這個我們也盡快把它提出修法為什麼這個這麼重要因為現在大部分的青少年你們跟青少年已經脫節了你們只要去問他們訪查他們你就會知道不要透露你的身份你就會知道他們都是從網路上取得的 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5523.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5527.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
對 這個非常的重要我們會盡快的提出請你一個月給我電子煙電子煙的檢討報告好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝陳清輝委員現在請邱輝祿委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5556.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5560.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
主席還有各位先進大家好那我們有請部長有請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5566.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5587.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
今天是想跟你請教就是我們的失智症人口攀升那我想跟你討論我們政府如何以數字以資料為基礎去制定有效的政府政策那我們來看一下就是衛福部其實之前有委託國衛院進行一個全國性的然後失智人口的流行病學 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5588.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5614.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
這個調查嘛那我想部長應該有掌握那相關私自證的資料呢這份研究指出來說其實有一些資料是欠缺的例如說社會照顧成本的資料是欠缺的家庭經濟負擔的資料是欠缺的那除此之外也欠缺以家庭照顧者為中心的統計數字特別是喘息服務已經實施15年了但是相關的資料卻付之確如 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5615.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5643.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那這樣的一個研究報告不只被審計部的決算報告所引用也被這個監察院的糾正文所引用這樣子所以如果欠缺這些資料我想對於政府在制定政策上其實會有一點是被公辦是被公辦那特別是呢衛福部呢根據身障權法每5年會進行檢討那也有一個調查報告那這個調查報告呢基本上是以不具有 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5644.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5667.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
基本上是以具有身障身份的失智症為研究對象換言之就是沒有涵蓋非具身障身份的一個失智症個案所以這樣的一個研究報告可能就沒有辦法全面性的了解所有的失智症那我們覺得蠻可惜的就變成說無法全面性了解失智症的相關資料那特別是這些失智症的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5667.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5683.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
也散落在目前的各系統當中資料非常的零碎的散落在各系統那例如說依長照服務法所設置的服務系統依身障權法所設置的身障系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5684.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5712.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
依私自證政策綱領所設置的私自證服務管理系統這些資料散落各處然後每個系統各自為證資料零碎化那其實也反映出來說這些系統只有部分私自證個案的資料沒有全面私自證的個案的資料怎麼說呢舉例我們來看這一個私自證的一個服務管理系統其實它涵蓋的對象只有6萬那為什麼只有6萬因為它只收羅 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5713.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5735.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
共造中心的個案還有失智症具體的個案所以你們這邊所掌握的數據只有6萬可是事實上失智症的患者在台灣初估接近有40萬所以這個資料非常的零碎化而且沒有全面的掌握好所以部長我的訴求出現了就是說有一個叫做癌症的登錄系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5736.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5764.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那這個系統上面針對這些癌症的一些原因分體然後一些人口學的資料都有做一些掌握那不知道我們失智症可不可以有一個全面性的能夠呈現失智患者的資料那作為政策參考政策規劃的依據還有部件裁員的依據那像一些失智症的病因失能程度生活服務的使用狀況家庭經濟狀態就說有沒有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5765.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5793.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
系統可以讓國人知道這些狀況讓政府部門知道這些狀況請問部長跟委員說明確實在過去我們有好多個系統散在像您所提到的但是我們已經進行整合當中了所以剛剛那個其實您剛剛說只有6萬是不止我們現在把它9個系統串起來大概可以掌握我們剛剛前面的學者的這個研究的推估 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5794.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5815.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
大概是近40萬人那我們現在這個系統裡面大概可以掌握到的是30幾萬大概7成不是只有這個6萬是指在那個供照中心的6萬所以大概掌握到7成左右那我們現在也把這個健保的系統也串進來了所以我們逐步在 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5815.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5828.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
在優化這個系統確實我非常同意沒有掌握完整的資訊你在不論是在做政策規劃或政策推動的評估上就容易有偏差所以這個確實應該要更完整一點至於這個系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5832.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5849.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
完成之後如何優化讓大家學者要使用也好或者是政府單位要做查詢能夠更清楚我們再來仔細的再看一下這個能夠怎麼樣來進行沒有問題一個澄清跟另外一個建議澄清就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5850.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5872.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
這個6萬是來自於你們這些各自為政的系統其中當中的一個叫做失智政防治照護的這個服務管理系統那個系統目前就是只有6萬人那為什麼只有6萬人就是來自於失智政的據點還有共造中心嗎那當然這個系統就是只有6萬人那當然你有提到說政府現在掌握的不只這6萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5874.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5903.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
系統串聯起來已經有37萬了那其實就可以顯示說真實的數字是什麼但是某些系統卻只有零碎的數字那當然部長也覺得說建立一個全面的系統有其必要性您剛剛也提到在串聯而且健保資料也會進來那我想既然部長願意跨出一步建置一個完整資料的系統那是不是可以讓這個系統更有功能性可能不是只有單純的這些人口學的資料是不是能夠有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5904.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5922.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
生活狀況資料的反應服務使用狀況的反應家庭照顧者照顧狀況的反應因為我在想不只政府部門一些國人特別是一些在推動失智症權益保障的這些團體都非常需要這些資料來進一步監督政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5922.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5936.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
我想後續我再請長照師找一些專家還有這些團體來瞭解他們的需求就是需要這些資料的需求那才能夠我們做出的這個系統符合大家的期待我們來優化這個系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5938.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5943.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
了解謝謝部長部長現在想跟你請教另外一件事我想長照的人口與日俱增我想費用的支付未來我相信也是會攀升這是指日可待也可以預期的我想WHO有提到說長照 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5955.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5975.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
失智證的這個衍生的成本其實高達1.7兆美元這是全球的啦我想台灣面對這個議題在經費的花費上也應該預作準備那特別是我們這個失智證的盛行率是7.99那剛其實很多委員都有提到這個數字在5年後在15年之後有可能會攀升到47萬68萬那這個經濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5979.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6007.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
失智政照護經費呢我想日後也是要面對一個挑戰跟課題那當然您有提到說有一些政黨的版本有提到這個失智政的基金嘛那其實就是民眾黨的版本確實有這個基金的概念那您剛好像有略為表示那好像提到不是很贊成那可以跟我們分享一下因為我們失智政基金是想專用避免去擠壓長照的基金以上請您說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6008.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6033.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
因為第一個我看到那個版本裡面的基金它的裁員的永續性看不到啦那畢竟我們現在的長照基金比較穩定它有穩定的來源那至於說新的這個要立法裡面的這個基金的裁員呢反而不如我們現在長照基金的來源穩定它那個主要是以捐款為主嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6033.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6052.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
捐款還有基金的支息然後我們提到一個長照保險經費的10%那當然長照保險現在是對就是未來努力的目標那我只想要請教您就是兩個問題第一個問題就是說因為基金的種類嘛其實也非常多我們看到其實我特別上衛福部的網站去抓 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6054.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6081.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
基金的種類你能滿目那當然都有他設立的必要性那我想也具有公益性那我的意思就是說如果其他的事項可以設置基金那失智證的基金也未必不能考慮那當然你剛有提到其實失智的照護就是來自於長照基金那只是說我們想把它獨立出來那只是部長您的考量是說因為我們我們的版本在您看來有四個基金的有四個裁員啦但那四個裁員你覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6082.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6106.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
比較不穩定那如果其實之後當然這些都可以提修增動益也許逐條討論大家可以提示廣益那如果把裁員因為長照的裁員也是來自於房地合一稅嘛 菸品健康捲碼 移政稅嘛等等的一些相關的稅款如果說我們可以把這個私製的基金把它獨立出來然後裁員也讓它穩定不知道你們不能這個認同啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6107.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6133.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
當然他從兩個角度來看就是說第一個呢他跟現有的長照基金所提供的私自診照物當中這個基金的用途那麼他的這個互補性如何他是要填補哪一塊不足的地方是不是現有的長照基金無法含納這個是第一個要去考慮的那第二個呢要設立一個新的基金當然他需要他的財源穩定 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6134.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6157.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
也要符合政府財政紀律法的要求的規定沒有問題反正就是部長我再帶回去思考一下也許日後我們有機會再交換意見那我問您第二個問題就是說因為剛其實就有提到為什麼要設立一個長照基金專款專用因為避免怕去擠壓長照的基金造成別的社會福利事項受到牽連除此之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6158.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6187.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
私自證本身的經費會不會因為長照基金的來源的那個來源不足而受到牽連那我為什麼會提到說基金的來源收入來源不足因為這裡審計部就有一個資料顯示嘛長照基金的收入年成長率只有2%但是長照基金的支出卻高達9至23%這樣子那所以其實有一點入不敷出啦那如果有一點入不敷出其實就是呼應我剛剛說的把私自證獨立出來有他的基金然後專款專用 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6189.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6204.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那不知道會不會破產 長照基金那不知道這個財源未來十年要如何規劃好 我跟委員說明這個為什麼在財政基地法裡面有提到要設立基金呢那麼你必須要考慮一下有沒有新生財源 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6205.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6228.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
那不然的話呢其實都是互相排擠的剛剛委員講說好像設立一塊有一個這個私日徵基金就不會排擠不會因為國家的預算如果沒有新增的部分那就是互相排擠部長沒有關係那個私日徵基金我們可以第二個呢我們的長照基金讓我們現在的成長的推估因為一開始的資源部件比較慢 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6228.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6242.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
所以大家可以知道在105年的時候大概一年只有40幾億的長照支出後來估計就越來越綿密了對所以它一定會先有一段的成長期然後再達到一個穩定的成長成績所以我們的財務推估大概在2035年前目前的長照基金是足以支應 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6251.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6276.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
所以即使是看起來收入是支出的這個支出是收入的4倍但你們覺得預估到203年還是可以支應可是可以支應之餘有沒有在想其他再更豐富的裁員能夠挹注進來那您對長照保險法長照保險法的推動的看法如何這個我們當然未來再來討論這個也不會完全排除不會排除長照保險法 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6276.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6304.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
好那如果不會排除長照保險法我們就更樂見我們就為失智基金看到一個曙光因為剛剛有提到失智基金有一個來源是來自長照保險法如果已經有cover進來的話那就更不需要再跌床駕屋再有另外一個基金沒問題我們就是之後如果真的因為我們的基金是來自於長照保險法那部長也覺得其實是可以討論的長照保險法沒有完全的排斥然後可以討論的長期而言要不要有長照保險法是可以討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6305.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6320.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那您對於陳時中之前提到那個證所證交稅證交稅要挹注健保那如果有一部分拿來挹注長照基金我講的是長照基金因為我們現在長照基金感覺就是支出是收入的四倍嘛你覺得長照證交稅是一個來源嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6322.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6338.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
正委所說的跟委員說明都是一樣這個是整體國家的財政那麼都是互相會有排擠的現象所以應該要從何來看那當然我們都很希望長照能夠永續健保能夠永續我想這是全民的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6339.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6356.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那部長我現在請教您一件事可不可以一個月給我這個升級版的實質證登錄系統的一個研擬方案時間表因為你剛剛說其實你們已經在整合了那可不可以給我們一個時間表讓大家不會隱隱其判然後感覺好像只聞樓梯響不見人下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6357.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6381.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
這個我們來細部了解一下因為到底這個查詢系統的用途跟使用者啦是我們的這個推動這些長照業務的工作人員要查詢的還是要跟外部學者或者是單位查詢的這個我們要把它理清理清之後才要知道說哪一些可以開放到什麼程度我知道讓這個系統的價值能夠發揮 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6384.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6410.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
可以給國人使用政府我們先把我們目前我們這個系統的規劃先給委員參考那除此之外可不可以給我們長照基金未來十年穩定裁員的規劃還有您剛也不排除長照保險法在未來其實是可以考慮的選項那可以給我們一個可行性評估報告那這三樣事項可不可以請一個月之內長照保險的可行性評估因為我們目前長照基金我剛剛提到到2035 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6411.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6430.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
都還是穩定未來十年這是穩定的所以是不是要開辦想說這可能要更長期的評估不可能在一個月內就把這個評估那您需要多少時間因為我們很希望知道政府這方面的想法如果您需要多長一點的時間我們其實是可以但是您可以讓我們知道政府目前的評估狀況嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6432.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6458.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
我們的意見可以表達給委員了解好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝謝謝邱慧若委員的質詢現在宣告待會在王一鳴委員尋討後休息10分鐘現在請邱政軍委員主席好我們請部長有請市長部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6463.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6478.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
教委很早部長好今天與會有很多單位我先請教一下在座各位誰接觸過失智症的患者或者是陪伴過失智症的家庭有沒有都有啦那我想問 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6481.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6508.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
有人說啦就是說失智患者是全家人的病那大家都知道一個家裡如果有一個失智症的患者的時候全家人都是非常忙碌的那我看到我們卓院長昨天在講說失智症基本療法僅針對一個症狀這樣符合社會需要嗎那部長你可以回答嗎你可以回答這個院長講的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6511.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6538.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
這個我比較不清楚因為這個院長指的應該不是指前後有一點斷章取義啦那應該只是說這個我必須要講一個連失智症是國家級風險都還搞不清楚搞不清楚把無數的家庭的崩潰輕描淡寫成單一症狀的行政首長不僅完全沒有執政的風範更沒有資格談什麼長照3.0 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6542.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6557.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
應該不是這樣因為在我們長照3.0這個也是抱怨核定的那裡面呢在長照3.0裡面你們自己委託國家衛生研究院進行的調查報告數據顯示我們私自人口呈現階梯式的暴增2025年我們有37萬名患者2031年 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6561.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6587.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
會增加到49.1萬那21年後可能會衝到76.8萬那台灣的失智人口是以每天36人的可怕速度在成長這代表這20年來我們的社會照護體系醫療支出及千千萬萬的家庭的照顧壓力都將面臨這個非常嚴峻的這個挑戰那結果我們行政院長卻用媒體說這種傲慢無知的言詞把自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6587.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6608.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
關在行政計畫的象牙塔裡面完全看不到這場即將到來的人口海嘯政府的冷漠才是我們這個社會最大的失智那回到你們的報告行政院報告說行政院會推這個長照推動小組結合財政部教育部勞動部經濟部衛福部國發會退府會園民會客委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6612.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6633.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
等9個機關副手長可是我看到你們衛福部說的報告確實施治鎮綱領3.0結合了12個部會那你們說現有的機制很完整可是我看到的是行政院跟衛福部連跨部會的名單都不一樣到底是9個機關還是12個機關我們長照3.0裡面的施治鎮綱領的專章是有12個部會那行政院為什麼講9個勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6643.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6671.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
那個是之前2.0的時候是大概10個部會所以你們現在還沒有同步就對了沒有 那個是還沒有 你跟行政院還沒有接收到訊號應該是不同不同階段因為現階段是12個部會對啊 因為你們連參與部會的名單都還不一致怎麼說全這已經清楚了那今天審查失智症基本療法行政院這份報告態度很明確那位常常3.0已經處理了那行政院院長推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6674.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6699.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
行政院這個長照推動小組在另外基本法這個基本法會重複分散行政量能衛福部的意思是可以研議但目前有國家計畫加既有法律雙軌如果另一專法要避免標籤化並先做跨部會的與中央的協調部長你真的認為不需要這個施政基本療法嗎還是你們還沒準備好所以認為不需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6701.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6716.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
應該是說我們現在進入到3.0是今年開始又擴大的那個跨部會的合作方案所以現在3.0今年才是3.0的第一年那我們也正式進入到施治鎮防治綱領的3.0所以應該我們是認為讓我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6720.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6732.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
因為我看你們現在不是有完整的制度只是把失智症拆散分別塞進長照法老夫法生權法精神衛生法裡面但沒有一部 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6733.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6749.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
法律是以失智者與家庭照顧為核心的一個法律正常的法治國家裡面通常都是基本法定方向計畫負責執行兩個本來就是上下位階的關係沒有衝突嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6750.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6770.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
其實那個現在講法是很奇怪他說已經有長照3.0所以不用基本法這個邏輯很奇怪應該是這樣子講跟委員說明我們有其他的作用法在支持失智症者的相關的需要那進一步的當然我們現在有一些法像在我們報告裡面特有到老扶法精神衛生法這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6771.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6790.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
其實都有含納到我們私自診的需要當然如果要更全面一點就是去檢視到其他相關法律這個就像你知道就像我們做我們平常在做防災防震演習但不會因為說消防局平常有在做就不用這個災害防救法對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6792.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6812.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
日本韓國本來也有生長法老人福利制度長照制度但他們最後還是另立失智政的專法就是因為失智政跨越老人生長醫療嘛長照金融交通司法等不同制度所以才需要一個一部法律來這個統整國家的責任嘛部長認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6814.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6835.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
應該這麼講,各國的考量跟法律制度當然都有所不同啦,所以就...因為你報告裡面提到一百多個年有開始推動當然有日韓,但是也有其他的國家,它也是很高齡化,像歐洲很多國家都高齡化程度也都不會比我們低但是他們也是按照他們現有的法律去推動,也沒有這個失智證基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6836.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6848.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
你報告裡面有提到嘛102年的時候這個跨部會推動施治症防護照護的政策也就是1.0那當初單獨把施治症拉出來做一個防治照護的政策原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6849.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6875.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
其實我們有很多計畫也都是因為這個問題很嚴重所以我們就會有一個然後那個世界衛生組織也好或者是聯合國也好他如果有提出相關的這些目標或什麼我們都會有這些像施政計畫當年的政府很有遠見嘛知道施政不等於一般長照所以我覺得部長你要加快腳步了好不好好我們一定加快腳步 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6875.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6897.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
那我再問一下警政署現在在擴大這個毒價的查緝送檢驗的檢體一定增加那衛福部作為濫用藥物的檢驗體系認證機構新興毒品監測與醫療通報主管機關目前全國後端的檢驗能量一天有多少可以完成多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6898.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6927.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
檢驗的量能檢驗的量能是應該是足夠啦但是詳細的數字我再提供給委員好那只是說剛剛也有提到說因為隨著這個新興毒品的發展也很迅速那檢驗的方法也是在跟上開發所以我們會來重新來找相關的部會跟這個專家來討論把這個檢驗的方法跟它的標準那個那個預值來做一些調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6927.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6955.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我看你衛福部115年2月的資料顯示非尿液檢體中這個伊托米子已經是第三名了單月764件佔12.6%那115年一到了2月就已經有3768件驗出了那114年全年則高達2萬多件這代表伊托米子已經不是零星個案而是毒品市場裡的主流那現在問題是 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6956.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6980.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
我們最近在炒這個毒價嘛那快篩完之後還要驗尿才能當最後依據可是醫推免醫止代謝快嘛你剛剛有講說部長有講說要這個採檢的方式要改變就是那個因為它的半衰期比較短所以它那個標準可能要它尿液濃度可能很快的下降所以現在毒價案件有沒有要求幾個小時內要完成採尿或者超過 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6982.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7007.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
多久的時間內一定要把它這個進行做拆解好像沒有特別我們要再確認一下所以你們我覺得這個都是問題啦我也希望你把它列入你們要改的這個部分另外我有在想到就是現在它這個伊東米子他們獨家的部分他們使用的是電子煙對不對電子煙的機器就是那個載具對它的載具嘛對不對那 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7009.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7031.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我想問部長 你們有可能會核准電子菸嗎沒有 現在在菸害防治法裡面是如果不會 現在我這樣講就是說我們要杜絕這種事情發生 是不是考慮從載具這邊直接就下手了你現在罰則低啊 對不對 你不能提高嗎如果你罰則提高的時候 大家都不敢拿了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7034.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7043.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
你這樣子你會讓基層的這個檢驗量能減少很多啦因為他還要去分辨他到底是抽電子鹽還是裡面加的乙酮明酯 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7045.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7070.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
因為我們現在對於那個販賣這個非法的電子煙就是我們在煙災防治法裡面叫類煙品反正你不會准類煙品這個罰則是到500萬嘛到500萬那是最高嘛可是你一般都不會罰最高啊對不對你最低是不是能夠提高讓這些業者他不敢賣嘛對不對 持有的人不敢拿嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7072.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7088.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
是不是就能夠又能減少一部分因為吸毒的人他都有一個僥倖的心態啦沒有抓到就不算嘛反正你們不會收我身啊但如果發現這些東西他就是違法是不是就直接處理對不對這樣也可以減少我們這個後面的壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7092.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7114.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
對 就是說現在我們在上次修煙害防治法的時候有一個漏洞就是對持有我們現在是對吸的是會罰嘛但是對持有沒有處分對 它持有它只是電子煙啊其實你也不能罰它什麼但是這個東西如果你修法把它改成你持有就不能罰持有就沒路啦沒路還要 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7115.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7131.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
要罰重一點吧對你要罰款吧可以可以對不對你當然罰款罰重一點他都不敢拿我們盡速把這個修法把他送入到這個大院來做這個討論因為現在警察在執勤的時候他是用快篩對不對現在快篩的準確度多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7132.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7156.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
春秋現在就比較高啦 比較快啦所以他才會這個件數明顯的上升因為現在的方式有快篩了啦以前用唾液會比較快我覺得這事情非常嚴重啦這事情非常嚴重部長請您這邊要加快腳步好不好這個東西你可能多一天就少一個遺憾 好不好另外再最後一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7157.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7181.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
你們115年就是今年編八千萬要買無人機嘛那其中一千五百萬是委辦費這是要請他幹什麼操作因為無人機需要有操控中心操控中心是一千五百萬委託他操控因為我們的無人機啊還必須要有操作人員然後要設定航廠他這一家這個操控中心他只負責操控不負責這個無人機的採購還是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7186.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7199.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
應該採購是另外的預算那個跟他沒有關係主要是我看你變成6500萬是要買啊對也就是說他們不負責採購嗎不會不會對那是用這個部分是怎麼樣他是未來用委託還是用招標 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7201.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7210.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
詳細的部分我想再提供給這個主要是要操控啦因為你沒有買了6500萬的無人機嘛對不對你買了當然你這個是未來是未來假如說有偏鄉用藥送藥對不對那除了這個之外你還有其他用途嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7222.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7241.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
我們主要有三個發展模式在一個是送藥無人機送藥到偏鄉或者是這個就是你們會服務單一的情況還是跟各部會都有合作這個部分是我們的那另外還有其他的對你買的你的那第二個呢是還有院紀監 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7242.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7261.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
對你可以跟其他消防啊什麼消防警政署啊或者是消防署啊這些來合作因為我不希望說你買了各部會都買了一堆他們自己用自己的平時都放在那邊不用對不對你應該要增加這個使用率而且達到他的最最大的效能吧會 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7262.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7269.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
會 因為我們還有幾個點 這個各個縣市不一樣 會同時來發展好 謝謝部長 好 謝謝謝謝邱政軍委員的諮詢 現在請王育民委員諮詢好 謝謝張偉 我們有請部長有請施崇良部長好 歐元好 部長好 部長你認為在整個長照的議題上面 失智症 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7292.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7312.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
的這個家庭跟患者還有他的對整個社會或者是跨部會的這個衝擊你認為他有沒有他的特殊性跟重要性當然有當然有當然有因為跟我們長照主要是按私人程序提供服務但是呢私自證剛剛我也提到在 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7313.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7323.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
這個集清度跟清度的時候其實它就會開始有一些生活上的困擾但是它不見得到我們現在所定位的很嚴重的失能狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7324.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7352.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
對就是因為他的特殊性而且他影響的層面比較大所以今天為什麼我們看到日本他也併出了這個失智症的基本法代表說在這個議題上面他希望透過政策的永續性跟落實性讓這一個議題是可控的甚至不要讓他影響層面再擴大而且是集中資源來把這件事情做好但是我剛剛聽到你在回答委員的時候你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7353.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7379.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
這個也不見得要立法這個專章就可以但是部長你有看到嗎之前我們在修這個耳托專法的時候一樣啊過去它其實是在兒少全法托育的議席只是其中一章但是隨著這個社會形態的改變少子化我們對於兩歲以下的照顧我們其實有更多的需求而且希望它更安全所以前陣子也才通過了耳托專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7380.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7409.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
那這個就是代表我們政府對這件事情的重視我們透過立法我們願意在這件事情上做得更好那我認為在施治政的這個議題上是同樣的道理就是說當政府其實是很正視這件事情的時候事實上立專法沒有什麼不好我聽到現在我聽不出來你說沒有必要性那請問立專法有什麼不好的地方嗎會妨礙到你們的地方會讓你們更難做事的地方嗎你可不可以講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7410.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7424.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
立專法有什麼不好就是說如果這個法的內容是這個我們確實實務可行的當然沒有什麼不好那可以討論啊可以討論可以討論對啊那為什麼你們的立場一開始就是反對的立場呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7425.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7446.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
沒有什麼反對我只是講說我們現在已經有相關的行動計畫啦或者是部長我想了解一下這件事情到底是行政院院長反對還是是衛福部你們主事者反對因為我看了其他單位的報告都是尊重立法院沒有人反對喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7448.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7455.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
對 我們也不是反對行政院也沒有反對只是說我們現在已經在做了行政院說沒有修法的必要啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7456.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7479.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
沒有反對啦就是說現在已經在做了已經在做了那你就尊重立法院我們往下走啊我們尊重立法院尊重立法院好很好我要聽到這句話因為事實上這件事情真的不用因為院長個人的意見立法院大家都很理性來看待這件事情那我相信部長你也是想要做事情的 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7479.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7494.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
那所以我們今天召委排了這個巡打之後我們可以召開公聽會我們可以再逐條那我希望在這段時間你們把你們的意見就是很專業的意見跟看法任何法案審查過程都是可以大家一起來商量商量出一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7495.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7520.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
最好的版本既能落實又能照顧到我們現在這些失智症者還有他的家屬還有這一些在服務的團體他們希望的目標我覺得這應該是最大公約數不用有一個特定的立場因為這個議題真的是大家要去面對的我們最近看到的這些社會新聞事件有人因為走失然後也有一人痛失了他爸爸就是在這種過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7523.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7546.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
現在有的家庭可能還沒有 但是未來也都會遇到所以我覺得這件事情應該是要用一個更客觀的角度我們共同來商議啦 我覺得這樣比較好了好不好那我們就繼續往下走啦那接下來我要問你的就是說在這一個這個整個施治鎮的這個服務量能的部分喔我給你看一張圖表你們剛剛一直說你們的服務量能總共已經達到37萬你們的串聯喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7549.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7570.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
但我做出來的圖表這再往下一張你的總服務量能我都不用重疊的我通常幫你加起來才二十萬九千你們的三十七萬是來自於哪裡我少算了哪一個部分現在你們整體的量能我算起來大概就是對應失智人口你的服務量能大概就是到一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7573.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7596.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
因為這個是現在是長照服務體系那另外還有是屬於拿到這個身心障礙證明的另外還有一部分他雖然沒有進入長照可是在醫療體系照顧的所以你把身障的加進來身障還有那個健保裡面我們有一些是就醫但是他不是他是就醫但是不是長照沒有進入長照你那個報告要給我37萬不能自己用喊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7597.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7615.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
因為我算起來大概就是20萬9千那這當中有一個比較複雜的就是剛剛我們那個系統串接完之後的那些人數這當中有一個BPSD就是據情緒行為症狀你們是用全責型的失智據點但是到目前為止才22個據點也才服務了256人 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7620.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7640.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
這一塊其實是現在很多這個是最困難的對最困難也是對家屬來講他們最需要政府協助的但你現在的量能你總共只有22個很少耶我也覺得這個是我們的重點啦應該要再增加因為這個部分是最困難你今年目標你要預計要增加多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7643.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7658.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
有嗎?你們有目標嗎?你們有目標嗎?你們全車型私自據點預計要增加多少?所以我們來努力增加所以你看你們自己也還沒有定目標,不敢定 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7660.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7685.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
這個推動是比較難對啊但是它很需要沒有問題啦這個我們來協調更多的醫院來因為這個醫療的需求比較高跟過去這個長照推動比較不熟悉所以這個需要我會來整合讓這個醫療的跨到這邊才有辦法對所以這個就是部長我要跟你講的今天我們服務這一些失智症它的特殊性就在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7686.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7696.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
所以這一塊我希望你們可以好好的去強化來解決這樣一個問題所以部長剛剛已經答應了我們修法繼續往下走 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7697.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7716.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我要再確定一次喔因為你有公務行程對修法繼續往下走尊重立法院尊重立法院好當然一向都尊重立法院好好謝謝你不要反對就好我們就繼續往前推喔好謝謝接下來我要問司法的部分喔你如果有行程你可以先走沒關係好司法的部分來他早上這麼晚就要走了 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7725.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7728.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
來今天那個司法院來司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7730.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7756.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
有進來在談這個失智症的時候事實上司法的保障還有法務部也上來司法的保障這一塊其實很重要因為民間團體跟我反映他們實務上有失智症患者他是輕度的但是他去到超商他有行動能力他去超商拿了東西然後也付了款但是他付款他就會少付 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7756.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7773.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
就是他知道要給付但是呢他給付的金額少了然後可能就要離開結果超商呢就把他當成是現行犯然後就通知警察然後家屬其實也來了家屬來了之後他說因為他是失智症患者他想要就是把金額補齊 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7775.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7801.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
然後給這個超商然後帶他離開但是這一個店家就很堅持就覺得他是現行犯就認為他要偷東西因為他對這個病症不了解然後就堅持要移送然後他就要走一連串的這個司法的訴訟我要問司法院跟法務部的是面對現在的這個失智症患者他們可能有這樣子的一個情況那你們在司法處遇上面有沒有針對這個類型家屬都願意出來了而且立刻趕到但是這類型還是堅持送 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7805.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7827.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那如果遇到這個檢察官也堅持起訴的他就要走一連串他變成是一個竊盜犯但他的前面是因為他有這個失智的症狀他還有付錢他只是沒有付足那像這樣的情況你們實務上有沒有遇過那這個類型未來你們要建立什麼樣的體系就是來保護這一些失智者不要讓他輕易變成是一個犯罪者 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7828.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7850.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
你們現在有在研議這些嗎委員跟委員報告因為我們司法院這邊會處理到像委員剛剛講的這樣的案子都已經是很後端了等於是檢察官要起訴了司法院才會收到這樣的案子那如果我們已經起訴的刑事案件裡面有這些失智症的患者的話目前我們司法院其實是有頒布一個身心障礙者監控司法指引那我們裡面其實也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7851.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7871.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
有提到失智者嗎你是身心障礙者對失智症的部分我們也是有說明的關於失智症的障礙特徵然後我們司法可以提供協助的重點可以使用的輔具還有溝通時候應該要注意的事項我們指引裡面其實都有說明那我們這個指引也有提供給各法院跟法官讓法官們在這個案件中如果有遇到失智症的患者的時候可以來做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7872.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7890.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那我們也當然是委員講到那個個案比如說個案到底有沒有構成犯罪那當然是法官個案去認定那只是說如果發現案件中確實有失事症患者我們確實有提醒法官說要注意說要比如說詢問的時候要注意什麼樣的事情那可能要盡量使用比較簡短淺白的語句那字體 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7891.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7908.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
跟詢問的時候的開訂的時候比如說資料的提供啊字體的大小的設置我們其實都有跟法官在執印裡面都有蠻詳細的說明那提供讓施政患者在接近這個法院使用司法資源的時候也可以獲得比較充分的保障好那法務部呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7910.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7925.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
你們有相關的訓練嗎?有那樣的敏感度嗎?這種類型的案件因為失智症患者他的特性是他不是像失能者他就待在家裡他其實是有行動能力的但是伴隨他的失智他有些判斷可能會出現問題那像這種類型你們在偵辦的時候有特別去提醒嗎?或者應該怎麼處理嗎?在實務上 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7933.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7944.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
我自己個人經驗是並沒有很常遇到失智症的狀況像委員剛才講的案例的話因為第一線是警方處理假設店家 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7945.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7966.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
就是執意要他提告那他的權益那事實上警方第一線處理如果他們依法處理也只能現行犯把他移送到地檢署那移送到地檢署的話那當然就有我們內勤執行的檢察官來認定他這個狀況那如果說能現場個案判斷他真的是有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7967.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7983.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
疾病上的因素或是施政狀況那當然處處於上就會有特應該就是說針對他個人的個案狀況來做不同的處理啊他不會說一定說他少付一點錢就不會把他起訴那一定是說個案的來判斷這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7984.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7994.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
因為在這一次的修法裡面特別有這個條文就是要提到這一些失智症患者他們的司法程序的保障整個風險辨識知識轉接還有專業培訓機制等等還有確保他在整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8000.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8013.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
偵查、審判、執行還有其他程序當中獲得公平、適切而且可理解的對待這個其實是很重要的那我希望司法院跟法務部你們回去因為未來這個剛剛部長已經講了我們會推進這個整個立法的程序這個跟兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8019.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8046.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
部會都有關希望司法院跟法務部回去之後也針對這一點你們要去演繹因為將來如果立法通過之後我覺得這個就是實務上已經有這個相關的團體他們提出來這個家長都會家屬都會產生這樣的困擾那我們怎麼樣避免司法資源的浪費然後更友善的去理解然後可以有一個更合理的整個司法的程序我希望這個司法院跟法務部回去之後好好演繹好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8047.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8055.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
委員我們都會再持續的再精進相關的措施好謝謝那兩位先請回那最後我提醒一下那個雖然部長離開了次長你上來一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8057.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8082.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
就是那個現在所有失智症的政策就是在決策資源跟預先規劃的部分其實我們是缺乏的所以未來在草案的這個第三條裡面呢特別有提到就是說失智症患者他在前期輕症的時候你怎麼樣尊重他的意願偏好生活脈絡跟權益資訊的保障你其實是要跟他溝通然後提供必要的資訊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8083.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8105.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
然後這個其實是很重要的但是我們現在社會的確有一些對於失智症患者會有一些汙名化或者是不理解以為說他在前期輕症的時候好像就完全失功能了然後完全好像他就不用去尊重他的意願或者是給他一些決策資源甚至在他在更前期的時候他有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8106.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8130.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
及早的規劃事項其實是可以預先規劃的那這個都是現在我們做的還不夠的地方那這個未來是不是你們也應該要好好去研議這個是團體很希望我們可以更往前推進就是說失智症患者不要被汙名化那我們可以在前期輕症的時候有一些我們能做的我們應該要協助他然後也適度的尊重他的意願那這一塊你們可以去規劃嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8131.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8146.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
好的 可以 感謝委員好 謝謝 感謝委員 謝謝謝謝王月明委員的諮詢 現在請廖委員向委員諮詢重新宣告 待會在本席訓導完休息10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8148.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8160.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
謝謝主席感謝主席今天排案那我想這個蠻重要的因為這次本席到WHA的時候跟部長私底下在聊也在聊這個失智症的問題那想要先請我們次長呂次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8170.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8188.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
市長我們今天就談制度沒有要談個案所以行政院長有公開質疑他說失智就是一種症狀一種樣一種態樣有沒有必要立一部基本法我想要先問你的專業判斷失智症是一種症狀嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8190.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8213.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
有需要立法嗎?你認同嗎?包委員,我要先澄清,我想那個院長的意思,他並不是指,他有一個上下脈絡啦那這個脈絡就是說,來次長您看一下,僅針對一種症狀符合社會需要嗎?這是我們卓院長講的話呀所以我就是要問你,你認同他的這個說法嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8216.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8239.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
我現在先說,剛剛部長也有回答,其實他現在他的成因,確實就是說醫學上面,現在目前大家有認為血管性...白鞋次長你可以簡單回答我就好,所以你是認同還是不認同他的這個說法,也就是說失智只是一種症狀有沒有需要立法,這個說法,這個質疑啦,你認同嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8241.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8256.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
他確實是一個病症的表徵啊失智症確實是這樣所以你認同他只是一種症狀嗎你要確定喔這個連台灣失智症協會都出來打臉喔他們就是認為所以你還是要認為是這樣嗎是上禮拜五其實台灣失智症協會就來拜會各個黨團喔他們長期在深耕在這個領域喔所以您是認不認同院長講的這個話 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8271.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8293.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
好 次長我跟你說 你講不出你認同 為什麼因為你也比誰都清楚 他不只是一種症狀連台灣失智症協會也都公開打臉這句話 問題就在這裡為什麼今天會討論這個事 因為行政院最高層對失智症的認知跟你的專業 跟這38萬個失智的家庭是差了一大截 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8294.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8317.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
所以一個連失智要不要立法都還在質疑的行政院怎麼可以讓我們的失智症的家庭放心呢所以這就是為什麼不能靠誰的一句話需要靠一部法律喔所以次長要問你一下喔你們依照你們委託國會院的這個相關的研究全國調查65歲以上的失智慎刑率是7.99%85歲以上更高達23.23%大約是每四個85歲以上的長者就有一個對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8324.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8329.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
沒錯 沒錯齁所以換算人數是所以換算人數現在有35萬如果包含年輕的就是有到38萬那他們育國2041年畢竟68萬等於是翻倍啊那請問這個數字您 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8342.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8370.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
你認不認同 你有沒有瞭解 掌握到這個數字有嗎我完全掌握 完全掌握很好所以就在我們的委託報告裡面對 很好所以這68萬的背後其實代表是68萬個家庭是的 沒錯那市長 施治鎮的政策綱領政策綱領2.0去年底就到齊了對不對對 沒錯那我直接問你新的獨立的3.0的行動綱領公告了沒 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8372.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8389.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
我們現在目前的一個做法就是我們現在目前就是把它在那個長照3.0裡面是一個專章所以就是沒公告因為沒有新的獨立的3.0的綱領已經公告了我講給你聽好您看一下簡報我講給你聽這不叫做公告這不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8389.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8406.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
失智症的獨立的綱領喔這個失智症2.0的綱領2025年底到期你們沒有獨立的3.0然後你降級成了2.0 plus塞進長照3.0的一個專章你剛才講是專章嘛你們放到長照裡面的專章嘛所以我說沒有獨立的綱領啊沒有獨立的3.0綱領啊 對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8412.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8433.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
欸 包委員 我們現在目前所以我跟次長講一下 這我整理出來給你了嘛沒有獨立的3.0 聽得清楚嗎你是降級成所謂的2.0 plus你塞進長照3.0的一個專章所以 換言之你沒有獨立的3.0綱領那 一個失智症 他不是一個獨立的綱領的情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8434.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8461.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
服務你可能會說服務沒有中斷或是有放到3.0裡面可是本質都只是一個行政命令它沒有法律的位階沒有強制力預算說砍可能就砍而且失智證這個失智牽涉12個部會你只把它放在長照底下一個專章夠嗎報告委員我覺得最重要的是要執行法律通過之後其實也是要執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8464.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8489.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
要執行是不是 最重要是執行的問題來次長我跟你講一個失智長輩可能的處境會發生什麼事失智最可怕的是我想你也很清楚他是不挑時間的一個失智的阿公他可能半夜就凌晨就突然起床出門那因為他人還可以正常的走動他只是忘了自己是誰要回到哪裡於是一家人在凌晨可能在街上就到處找 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8490.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8518.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
報警協尋我也有同仁也遇過這樣的事這個部分是內政部他可能被詐騙集團騙去開人頭帳戶一輩子的積蓄被騙光這可能是金管會法務部他還能不能開車上路這是交通部而照顧他的女兒為了他的工作為了他可能只能夠辭職那這是勞動部要管的所以一個失智者一個家庭他從凌晨到白天一整天他可能跨了四五個部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8519.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8543.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
然後你們會服務一個其實是指揮不動的你們沒有辦法指揮這麼多跨部會的事情所以最近也有這個相關的這個首都候選人就很重要的一個概念是要怎麼樣讓一個人順順的過一天要讓他跟家人的時間對齊對齊就可以發生很多事情可是失智症到底這個情況要怎麼對齊你要對齊你要跨很多的部會啊是 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8545.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8570.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
所以你要跨很多的部會啊你要跨很多的部會啊所以你在委員會裡面在處理這個問題啊所以沒錯所以他要跨很多部會所以我要講的事情是一個行政計畫一個行政命令是不夠的他需要跨部會的權力而且需要有人統治所以我們現在長照推動委員會裡面就在這個機制裡面處理好那我跟你講為什麼現在台灣施治政協會他們認為就是放在一個長照3.0裡面一個獨立的專章不夠嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8571.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8598.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
為什麼非要專法不可因為現在你會說現在有政策綱領有長照3.0在做何必立法那我就是要告訴你為什麼行政計畫不夠一定要立一部法所以我剛剛舉例了一整個這個生活的過程第一行政計畫沒有法律位階第一行政計畫沒有法律位階所以你的預算執行可能換個部長就換了可能就轉完了而那38萬個家庭的保障我相信這麼重要的問題應該不會啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8601.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8627.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
市長你這個態度有點不好喔不叫做應該不會我再跟你講為什麼非要轉法不可你剛剛說應該不會那你裡面還有一個應該的概念嘛所以應該不會還是有不確定性啊所以現在就是不能建立在看行政院的心情上也不能建立在可能人換了想法不同了就開始不執行了或者不對了所以第二行政計畫是指揮不動話不會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8629.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8655.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
只會不動跨部會的,你只能夠協調所以你有權指揮勞動部嗎?你有權指揮金管會嗎?所以只有法律才可以克與每個部會法定的責任針對失智症的患者和家庭第三,行政計畫也沒有克責做不好沒有任何人要負法律的責任所以這是為什麼今天我們要討論這件事情基本法才能夠把它變成國家的義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8657.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8670.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
我要跟你講的是這個部分我前面論述是一連串要跟你這樣說的所以這是為什麼日本2023年通過2024年他開始實施實質證基本法而且他拉到了首相的層級 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8671.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8695.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
這部分一定要讓次長知道包委員這個我了解對 韓國2011年就立法了對不對2012年實施 施行所以實質上在這些國家他們是當成國安的問題在處理在立法的那我們現在目前已經有38萬的家庭遇到這樣的事情他橫跨12個部會我想難道還不夠嗎所以我就是想要問次長我剛講這麼多是想問次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8697.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8722.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
所以衛福部你們支不支持施政基本法的立法支持還是不支持我們都會來多方來研議謝謝所以您是研議那你是支持還是不支持所以我們會來聽各方的意見剛剛部長是說尊重立法院對不對尊重立法院所以我們立了這個基本法你們會支持等於是你們就尊重就會支持是這樣嗎我們尊重立法院好尊重立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8724.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8751.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
好所以再來主條的來跟您討論一下因為我們希望說次長現在失智症還有個很現實的問題啦其實很多人可能根本也不知道自己失智了因為失智症有很多是往往是沒有病識感沒錯對所以常常要等到家屬覺察察覺甚至可能要壓著去看醫生壓著去檢查他才可能確診喔是那所以可是我們現在的成人健檢啊老人健檢到現在也沒有常態的納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8752.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8767.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
認知功能的評估所以我們是訴求是不是要回去把這個認知功能的檢測正式納入成人跟老人健檢然後並配套轉介的機制不要塞來塞去卻沒有處可以去這部分可不可以我們來研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8769.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8788.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
好 嚴懿 那你的嚴懿是要給的其實現在是這樣啦我們現在目前就是全責刑的這個醫院我們就是希望能夠在早期能夠來做透過這個方式來做一個早期的Screaming嘛對 就是要提早發現嘛你提早發現才知道剛剛部長在答詢的時候他也有說嘛我們現在會來加強有關於全責刑這部分所以我剛剛上一頁喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8797.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8825.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
剛剛所以這裡講的就是說早期這塊對你要趕快去推動因為如果簡單來講你納入一個這個一個認知功能的基本檢測然後就是補助讓他們去做的話其實他是大概率會比較多人去用的因為事實上我認為現在38萬人搞不好還是有黑數喔很多人他可能有但是他不知道他也不想面對也不會自己主動說我要去篩檢嘛所以其實他可能真正受苦的家庭是更多的沒錯沒錯所以這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8826.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8827.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
請這個次長回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8829.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8856.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
你們一個兩個禮拜可不可以給本席辦公室一個一個方向案報告兩個禮拜可不可以給本席辦公室這一塊好OK我們會來提問不過我也那個就是兩個補充第一個就是說現在目前全世界應該還沒有對於整個失事症的普篩因為這個裡面其實基本上還是有精準的一個整個的一個檢測所以我剛剛說我們就共造中心等這些的這個前端這邊來趕快來強化但是你剛剛也認同對不對是要提早發現會 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8858.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8884.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
所以精準度是一個問題沒有錯但是現在有很多不同種的方式所以現在只是說你要提供一種這種認知檢測讓他可以都去測試那當他出來之後如果真的有狀況再進一步的檢測嘛沒錯沒錯現在還有所謂的TAO的這個檢測方式沒錯沒錯大家就三個階段就是像委員說的就是先Screaming然後整個確認然後再自聯所以我本期要求具體的就是說早期的這個認知基本檢測的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8885.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8914.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
第二個就是年輕失智症的這個發病的時候他人可能還在上班那現在的制度大多是等到他失能失業家庭垮了才接手所以我認為啦這個可能要比照這個CRPD的精神雇主對於初期失智員工有一些職場合理調整的義務然後政府要建立對於年輕型的失智職場的支持那另外現行的家庭照顧假也只有短期臨時性那可能不足以 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8915.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8934.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
處理失智症長期的追蹤 陪診行為照顧或是照顧安排所以到時候應該也要去規劃有沒有另外的價別的規劃希望這個部分這個勞動部的這部分主要是勞動部的權責我在這裡講出來希望勞動部在這方向也要演繹勞動部有沒有代表來有 副司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8947.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8956.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
委員剛剛所提的勞動部的意見就是包含說這些假的研議或者是說相關的就業支持這一塊我們勞動部會帶回去研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8957.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8984.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
那研議的時間呢一個月因為委員因為這個部分其實我們之前其實委員會這邊也有做過討論所以有委員來要求我們勞動部跟衛福部這邊因為這個還是有涉及到跨部會對所以所以之前其實很好都有做一些所以你凸顯出的基本法的重要性因為跨部會啦你們如果沒有這個的話其實一直研議研議我也不知道研議到什麼時候這個真的需要有更高位的層級來指揮那 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8986.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9005.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
所以你說因為牽扯到衛福部那你還是總是要給本席一個時間吧還要跟他們溝通對不對所以好那我就再追問啦剛剛有說到現在有在執行那我想要請問一下你們針對失智症這件事情我請次長回答好了你們跨部會開會了幾次 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9007.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9027.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
包委員關於這一個相關議題我跟我們有一個雙次長跟勞動部這邊三次長雙次長我記得應該有三次有三次的會議從什麼時候到現在三次可不可以提供給本席辦公室一個時間和你們討論的內容以及結果好不好結論好嗎那這個會後就提供給我好不好一個禮拜後一個禮拜以內給我給本席 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9028.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9039.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
好再來這個也要問次長因為第三個訴求就是要比照癌症的登記我們希望可以更有數據可以掌握這個所謂的個案所以我們失智症過去癌症 |