| IVOD_ID |
17444 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17444 |
| 日期 |
2026-05-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2026051246 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-05-19T12:31:01+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-05-19T13:56:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
01:24:59 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eaef928e0ebd2d78b5f0f11d6b89d01e5eb7b695d4fecf9ee9c75e4a62aa3f752d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-05-19T13:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：本院內政委員會報告併案審查委員林宜瑾等22人、委員陳玉珍等17人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員林淑芬等23人及委員翁曉玲等16人分別擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:31:01 - 13:56:00 |
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現在開始開會,我們今天進行的黨團協商主題是內政委員會報告並案審查委員林益菁等22人、委員陳玉珍等17人、台灣民眾黨黨團委員林淑芬等23人及委員翁曉玲等16人分別擬據公職人員選舉罷免法第26條條文修正草案的黨團協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2081.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2104.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我們先介紹黨團代表及行政機關的代表那這個先介紹民眾黨黨團許中興委員民進黨的范雲委員國民黨的張志倫委員還有王宏威委員那我們的與會官員有我們內政部的吳唐安常次然後有民政司的鄭英宏司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2105.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2122.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
中選會的謝美玲主任秘書法務部楊時瑜檢察官還有司法院的廖佩玲法官還有我們林淑芬委員也到場有關本日協商會議未立協商進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2123.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2148.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
本席建議由各黨團直接針對條文分別表示意見,如行政機關有補充意見,再行說明那因為今天民眾黨團有提出一個修正的文字那就是先請民眾黨團說明之後,再由其他黨團表示意見以上好,那議事人員,我們那個民眾黨團的修正文是先給各委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2353.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2378.754 |
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好 大家都有收到了嘛 會議資料 那個再修正動議那就是我先請你許中信委員說明一下召委 換委員 王委員 張委員那還有理事會委員 還有各位同仁有關於本黨這一個在公職人員選舉辦法二十六條第九款 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2380.458 |
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2407.119 |
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那我們根據上次我們在審查會的時候的各位的高見我個人提出一個在修正的動議也就是說在第九款增加一個但書宣告反省或得直接間接義扶社會勞動之自由行者不在此限 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2408.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2434.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那為什麼會做這樣一個修正呢因為我們希望把輕罪的犯罪者盡量能夠讓他恢復他的參政權選舉的權利所以我們把可以服社會勞動的自由型的異型來納入那這一點我準備了一個體系圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2437.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2457.374 |
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這個體系圖請各位看一下我們把刑法裡面的罪行法定主義然後主刑包括自由刑跟罰金刑罰金刑的刑刑是一胡牢一一胡牢一就是有可能要進監獄的這種罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2461.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2486.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我們在獎學章叫做重罰金可以罰到好幾億因為我們銀行法他們可以有經濟犯罰到好幾億這個重罰金所以他義乎勞役這個我們沒有去碰到他所以我們只針對自由行而自由行包括無期徒刑、有期徒刑、拘役他可以役刑自由行的役刑有兩種 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2488.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2505.9 |
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上面那一種我們在講學上叫做間接取代自由形那下面這一種叫做直接取代自由形上面這一種它是比較輕的也就是說它犯的最重本形是五年以下有期徒刑的罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2507.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2531.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
而受到六個月以下有期徒刑或拘的宣告這個時候可以一顆罰金那這個罰金叫做小罰金因為一自由行犯的罰金它是小額的不可能大這個小罰金它如果不繳它願意服比較重的社會勞動那我們OK你要自己願意去採比較重的社會勞動這個時候我們可以讓你回復參選那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2537.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2563.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
所以六個月以下下面這一格六個月以下有期徒刑或拘役而不符合第41條第一項的一顆罰金的這個呢齁他是直接可以異乎社會勞動也就是檢察官可以直接異乎社會勞動他是比較重的刑比較重的基本刑的那我覺得這兩個應該都是可以讓他回復他的參選權那麼我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2567.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2591.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
有些人士他會認為說 欸 滑金這裡可以讓他不繳服社會勞動那另外一個主刑的滑金 為什麼不一起處理我們不能把兩件事情處在一起 因為滑金有重滑金跟輕滑金自由行犯的滑金是一個輕滑金我們是要把這個輕滑金的一服社會勞動部分的異形讓他恢復回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2592.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2621.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
可以選舉至於你可能換了一個經濟化中華金的好幾億的那個是義務社會勞役我們沒有去碰他仍然不能夠讓他參選所以我特地為了讓我的表達能夠清楚我特地去畫了這個體系圖這個體系圖我有著作權是我畫出來的是我畫出來的以上我認為我們盡量的把人民的參政權回歸人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2623.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2640.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
回歸我們憲法保障人民參政權的義職如果真的這個犯罪人不宜參選應該就是褚獨公權那你要用選罷法來禁止他選舉就是要重罪那輕罪我們盡量讓他可以回復參選的自由台灣民眾黨這樣一個再修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2646.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2669.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
一個大學生為了賺取學費在大學聯考的門口去私自影印了補習班的試題在那邊販售他所犯的這個意圖圖利而重置著作之罪我們台灣民眾黨這個版本還救不了他所以各位從這個例子你就可以看到連一個大學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2670.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2695.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
印製試題在校門口賣他都不能參選我這一次的修法都救不了他那所以我們這一次的修法已經是在極小的範圍內讓人民可以盡量的可以參選以上跟各位做一個報告好 謝謝主播 剛剛您提的罰金刑的部分我抱歉我可不可以先請中選會說明一下罰金刑現在的規定可不可以參選啊總理 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2709.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2712.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我是指那個單純的罰金刑 不是自由刑的罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2720.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2744.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
對 只有有期徒刑所繳的罰金必須執行完那如果說他並沒有受有期徒刑的判決的話是可以參選的所以說現在的重罰金就是剛剛照曲中興委員講重罰金是可以參選的反而是輕罰金沒有繳完不能參選這樣子嗎對 他必須沒有受有期徒刑的宣告好 那我就請其他黨團表達意見主席民進黨先嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2745.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2750.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
沒有 我是要剛剛就你講的那個先回應我的意思是我們這裡講都是有期徒刑所以我們講罰金跟重罰金那個好像大家在這裡吊書袋搞得大家把自己搞得一頭霧水其實不是這樣 我們可以講完整一點就是一顆罰金我們講的罰金是一顆罰金所以本來都是在講自由刑沒有在講罰金刑這一件事這是不用在這裡提出來說的 第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2773.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2778.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
第二個 我不曉得要不要先請司法院來表示意見在表示意見以前 我個人先表示我的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2785.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2790.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
就是說許委員我也是尊重你你也經常說你自己是博士那剛才也弄了很多很薄的東西出來但在這裡事情就簡單的講你剛剛講說你們重新修正其實這裡完全沒有修正跟上一次的內容幾乎實質上都一樣而且呢我們在法律上從來沒有說什麼間接你這個條文叫 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2816.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2824.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
間接易服社會勞動什麼叫間接易服社會勞動這個在法律上在法律的條文上沒有這種名詞然後或者是你去找最高法院的判決哪裡會提到間接易服社會勞動沒有但是我可以理解我可以理解你講的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2840.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2842.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
因為宣告緩刑 我剛剛講了 我們宣告緩刑是三黨的共識因為他從罪職上被判了 不要講那個起訴的那個罪是最終的法官的判決 在罪職上緩刑是幾乎是我就給你留下查看 之後也不會留下記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2862.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2869.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
但是異刑處分在罪質上判決上不要講他原來所犯法律是最低刑度多少就最後法官判給他的異刑處分包括異科罰金啊異服社會勞動啊或是異服勞役啊都比緩刑還要重這個是事實然後呢重點不在那裡重點是什麼重點是你這個條文就是說異服勞役 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2894.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2898.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個的直接或間接亦服社會勞動之自由行者因為罰金刑本來就沒有所以你自由行啥你是會說的嘛罰金刑本來就沒有禁止他嘛所以你這個條文就是說直接或間接亦服社會勞動好 但我們就要想說直接或間接亦服社會勞動就可以參選被判直接或間接亦服社會勞動 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2919.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2927.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那我們 其實老實說徐委員你講的 我也支持有一些真的是沒那麼多人沒那麼多人不要這樣隨便輕易的剝奪了憲法賦予給人家的參政權這剛才說的大學生在聯考門口販賣這個什麼試卷你覺得你都救不了他那你都救不了他就不用拿出來講這個條文就跟他無關了嘛那你現在救了誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2948.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2963.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我其實認為我可以支持你們啦但是你現在不是為了支持這個大家你現在就看到一個原來高鴻安嘛高鴻安所犯的七年以下的誣告罪已經判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2964.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2979.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
第一個然後大家沒定讞但是呢他高雄安所犯的7年以下的誣告罪判決他偏偏發生了一個事情是誣告罪7年以下所以不能夠議科罰金那不能夠議科罰金他就不能夠繳錢以後就出來選 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2987.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
3002.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以這種狀況裡面因為這個他判了六個月不要講判六個月啦判五個月一樣不能夠一刻罰金因為是最低本刑是七年以下的有期徒刑但是他雖然不能一刻罰金但全台灣的檢察官在執行面全台灣都會允許他變罰社會勞動社會勞動所以在這種狀況裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
3014.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
3019.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
他就可以你這個間接亦服社會勞動就是這個意思啦因為法律上沒有這個間接服社會勞動的這種字眼所有法院判決也從來不曾出現過這個字眼第一次出現就是在這一個修正案民眾黨所提的而這個意思講的就是高鴻安這種在執行院最後他不能夠一顆法金會變成罰社會勞動 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
3043.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
3051.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那其實喔,不要講高鴻安啦,一般人是這樣子,一般人你不要以為,喔,許委員剛剛講的,有些人呢,法金沒得立,跳槓要去給人家,要去罰社會勞動,比較痛的,比較辛苦的,其實不是,有些善惡經濟困難的人,法金對他來講,很多錢,他攪不起。 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
3065.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
3075.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那一種人也可以先申請一服勞役所以你條文有涵蓋喔一服勞役有三種狀況可以申請社會勞動喔他先從不繳一顆罰金不繳一顆罰金可以變成一服勞役一服勞役有下列三種狀況可以申請社會勞動你也都允許他了好這三種就是一服勞役期間超過一年了乖 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
3095.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
3115.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
請官員做苦役、做求過一年他可以再去申請,所以他本來發官派他就是要再官員越久第二個,執行逾六個月有期徒刑病科或病執行的罰金這樣子也可以申請社會勞動然後因身心健康因素執行社會勞動,嫌有困難的話他就這個下列狀況還可以再去申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
3123.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
3138.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我的意思是說你這樣子繞了一圈啦其實大家可以討論說到底要到什麼樣的判刑你覺得才不要輕易剝奪那我們大家的共識都覺得說其實緩刑是絕對 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
3140.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
3142.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
絕對大家覺得是沒必要的但是你現在又放寬到一刑處分那你就坦承你們就放寬結果你上次跟這一次意思都還是一樣你們繞了一圈在這裡玩弄了這個字眼在玩弄我們嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
3156.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
3160.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
結果最後其實就是幫了高鴻安看起來就是為高鴻安量身定制而其實不應該幫他量身定制這個議題疫情處分也很值得拿出來給社會討論說是不是應該大家議題都應該要讓他們有參政權 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3174.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3177.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
這個是對的可是你現在繞了一圈繞來繞去讓人家看不懂看起來好像你指疫情處分改成限制在社會勞動其實是障眼法什麼叫間接社會勞動所以在這裡還掉了很多書袋你們讀書讀這麼多我們就沒有讀書沒關係自由行跟罰金行 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3196.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3223.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
真的不用去驅逐,反而金行人沒有被剝奪掉他的參政參選權啊這裡一律討論的都是自由行所以在這裡我的意思是說我個人還是覺得我們支持李博弈的修正版本就是受緩刑宣告者不在此限啊其他我覺得還是可以再討論,但不一定是現在就急著幫一個人解套啊,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3226.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3232.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
好剛剛宣告過委員先發言除非委員沒有要再發言了才請這個與會機關代表發言好那範圍委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3237.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3258.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我這邊就是剛剛林淑芬委員所講的其實我大部分都贊同不過還是就是幫民進黨團講一下就是上次立法院修法用意是良好的但是我們也發現就是他把判決後未執行執行未完成緩刑者都被剝奪參政權只要被法官宣布判過緩刑都不能夠參選公職這其實讓很多的民眾覺得有比例原則失當 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3266.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3286.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那我們大家都知道立法院裡面就你知道那個國民黨的黨鞭他判過兩次坐過兩次牢加起來的刑期我查了一下接近兩年那這樣子的人可以當黨鞭那可是這個緩刑卻不行這的確是就參政權的比例原則失當所以民進黨團討論過那我們的立場關於這個選罷法26條的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3292.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3314.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
就是支持李博弈召委他領銜的修正動議就如同剛剛林淑芬委員講的那因為疫情的情節其實就法律的專業來講他仍然高於緩刑他的原本質上就是有罪而且必須執行短刑期那只是考量到各種原因所以他這樣處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3315.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3336.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
可是呢受緩刑宣告者是法院在判決緩刑的時候已經綜合考量犯罪的情節的輕微被告是不是有悔意那給予被告一個改過自新的機會所以這個本質上這兩種就非常的不一樣那第二個上次我們修法其實是在反黑金反詐騙覺得這些人不適合來擔任公職 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3339.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3346.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
可是疫情處分中的一顆罰金對黑金詐騙集團等等幾乎沒有阻嚇力那這會違背我們上一次修法這個排黑條款防黑金政治的參政的這個核心的精神那它其實也會嚴重傷害到人民對民主選舉制度的信任那這是一個第二個我們反對的理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3363.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3379.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
第三個剛剛林樹芬委員已經也講到了外界都已經開始質疑民眾黨為什麼突然要加這個部分那明明三黨討論的已經有共識就只處理緩行這個不會留下前科紀錄的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3380.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3398.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
條文那一定要在這個時候加這個就是疫情的部分是不是要幫哪個個案解套我想剛剛林淑芬委員都已經講了那就是突然這樣子我覺得會讓大家更感覺到就是國會就是不公允 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3399.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3415.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
以多數的選票多數的投票就要為個別的個案而解套修法我想這是我們立法院應該要避免的事所以基於這些理由從比例原則到疫情的情節高於緩刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3418.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3435.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
到就是我們原本上次修法的這個防範黑金的這個修法的精神到就是立法院的修法不應該讓民眾懷疑是為了哪個個案檢討那民進黨就是支持我們只支持李博弈召委領銜的修正動議以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3438.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3464.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
好 謝謝 那有關范委員剛剛講的這個黑金的部分本次應該是不會放寬到因為我們只是討論第26條的第9款那1到6的部分1到6款的部分只要牽扯到黑金的無論它是不是緩刑還是任何的部分我剛剛是說一行處分它的結果容易有這樣的漏洞以上說明那往後會委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3468.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3492.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
謝謝主席再補充說明一下因為我想那個范雲委員沒有把這整個條文看清楚那我們現在呢是修第九款那但事上第七款非常明確曾犯前六款之罪經有刑判決確定並受緩刑之宣告者一同 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3493.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3517.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
所以就說第七款它其實就是把前面大家所擔心的有沒有什麼黑金啦犯罪啦 貪污治罪條例呀什麼等等之類都已經涵蓋進去了所以我覺得在這邊我們在朝野協商的時候一定要把這個事實面把它說清楚以免大家出現誤解因為我相信有很多人在看直播大家還會擔心說難道我們把什麼這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3522.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3544.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
貪污自罪條例啦 或者什麼組織犯罪條例是不是也給他開一個小門 不是的這個在條文裡面講得非常非常的清楚那第二點就是在宣告緩刑的部分 三黨都有共識那現在就是異形處分的部分那在異形處分的部分 在文字上 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3545.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3548.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
怎麼樣把這個民眾黨團他所提出來他們的精神能夠放進去再把大家的疑慮因為我們在會前的時候也有跟行政單位有做一個溝通那如果有一些疑慮怎麼樣在文字上把它做一個比較明確的這個說明我覺得可以我們可以來做協商這個疫情處分那第三點我要特別講 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3573.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3600.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
因為我覺得剛才呢兩位民進黨委員都提到今天民眾黨團的提案是對個人量身定做那我覺得第一點當我們條文修正的時候這絕對不會只有一個高鴻安適用如果有其他的其他的就是要願意參政的他可能也有類似的狀況都可以適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3601.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3615.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
至於高鴻安他現在大概是有兩個部分他的司法第一個是貪污自罪條例我剛剛在講貪污自罪條例一旦是已經有罪判決根本就不會適用到第九款了這個貪污自罪條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3623.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3626.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
對對 我現在就要講它另外一個是誣告案那個誣告案是什麼誣告案呢我要講一下那個誣告案就是當時大家應該記得就是有關於這個論文有沒有抄襲事件那當時呢 這個陳時奮我想有些人很清楚知道因為他到現在都主張林智堅的論文是沒有抄襲的 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3647.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3650.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
所以陳時奮說高鴻安學歷就是他的論文有抄襲後來高鴻安就告他誹謗結果接下來因為陳時奮被判決無罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3668.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3682.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
然後陳時奮再回過來去告高洪安誣告這個案子就是這樣來的就是這樣來的 這個是很特殊啦這個案例很特殊那為什麼我要發言呢我要跟大家報告啊我也有去告誣告啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3685.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3697.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
因為當時整個的論文的抄襲是從當時的林志堅開始那我就是我就是第一個爆料林志堅他論文抄襲的我就是第一個林志堅立刻來告我誹謗他立刻來告我誹謗 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3705.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3726.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
可是問題是 大家如果有印象林志堅兩個論文包含台大 包含中華大學通通以他論文涉及抄襲撤銷他的學位好啦 我講的是事實我現在講的全部是事實所以 按照同樣的狀況我再去告林志堅誣告我再去告林志堅誣告那我跟大家報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3732.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3754.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
這個案子 已經四年 四年了無消無息沒有任何的處理好 所以我要講的就是說大家今天講說 哎呀 這是為高華安一個人量身定做他的誣告罪 像這樣的政治人物碰到我這樣的政治人物也碰到啊那為什麼雙標呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3757.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3770.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
所以我要講就是說我把這個事實因為會有人看直播所以我要把這個事實面講一下那至於就是說當我們把條文做一些修正的時候它不會只是高鴻安一個人適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3773.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3785.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那如果大家對於這個疫情處分要不要列入這個他可以來參選的部分我想可能大家也許有一些疑慮或有一些論述我這個尊重那因為我們個人就是或者我們國民黨團我們支持把疫情處分的部分來 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3793.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3797.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
這個有條件的把它加進去所以我剛才講說那至於就民眾黨團所提出來的條文然後在我們行政機關有一些是不是覺得很治安然行或者是說確實有什麼不公平的地方那我覺得可以去尋找條文的修正但是我覺得不要變成說這樣子條文修正只是為了一個人而這個人我剛才講的就是這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3819.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3825.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
大家可能聽聽看那這個司法的判決到底公平或不公平而因為這樣就讓就為了他就說因為我們不要為了高鴻安我們就把這個門全部關上那是不是也有違反比例原則問題我覺得這個也是可以大家來做一些論述的以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3841.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3867.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
好 我們請許中信委員好 謝謝召委因為剛才各位先進有發表一些意見我稍微澄清一下我書沒有讀比較多但是我根據刑法的原理去分析第一點我上次說反刑我可以接受是因為有異刑處分搭配反刑我才同意如果單獨反刑我絕對堅決反對 為什麼反刑比較重 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3871.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3894.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
如果我們同仁認為說反刑比較輕你去看看反刑是兩年以下有期徒刑而我們義福社會勞動是六個月以下的宣告所以從這個兩年跟六個月就可以看到反刑其實它是比較重那為什麼反刑它執行期滿沒有再犯故意之罪不要讓它有紀錄那不是因為它比較輕而是因為它比較重不要給它有紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3895.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3916.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
所以邏輯上剛好相反然後第二點現在的組刑裡面的罰金刑根據我們銀行法可以判到好幾億的這種罰金刑他亦乎社會勞役他也可以亦乎社會勞動但是那一種情形沒有在我的修正案裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3917.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3932.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
而且各位要知道,我們較重的罰金組型可以參選而我們較輕的自由型換的罰金型,那個是小罰金型,卻不能參選 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3933.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3956.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那個邏輯就是不對因為較重的罰金主刑他可以參選而我們較輕的自由刑所犯的罰金役刑卻不能參選很顯然邏輯不對所以我個人認為我們還是要加入役刑處分而這個役刑處分範圍要限收到哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3957.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3984.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
我能夠想出來的就是直接或間接的義福社會勞動之自由行以我的法學讀那麼久的書想到的就是這樣子而已那你們如果說直接間接在刑法在法律上沒有我可以還很多直接間接的這一個法律的適用法律的解釋讓各位來參考直接義福社會勞動就是這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3985.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
4006.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
不符合五年以下的那間接一幅社會勞動就是有罰金他不繳罰金然後再一幅社會勞動這兩個都是自由行我個人認為這兩個都是輕罪小罰金不繳他一幅社會勞動一定是有他困難的地方小罰金不繳他一幅社會勞動就是他真的沒錢他願意去勞動 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
4007.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
4026.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
他跟那個重華軍大華軍是不一樣的所以我們用這樣來修法至於高鵬安我根本不認識他我也沒有他的手機號碼我也沒有主動打電話給他我那一天是徐信義委員接一個電話那個市長也不一定是誰全台灣多少市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
4028.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
4048.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
所以我個人認為說我們不要因為一個人我們根據這個制度把輕罪者讓他恢復他的參選權這樣才是重要至於疫情處分要修正到哪裡我想到的是直接或間接得一幅社會勞動之自由行這樣打擊面不會太廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
4050.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
4065.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那如果說這個文字有困難的話那個直接或間接五個字直接或間接五個字可以拿掉可以拿掉那這樣的話或許就不會有直接或間接領事務委員的疑慮以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
4067.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
4094.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
好 我想因為黨團協商就是必須要大家有共識才會有一個協商的結果如果大家沒有共識的話就不會有一個結果那我現在就先請教一下民進黨團我們這邊針對的意義是針對法條的內容認為說有討論的空間還是說認為這個法條可能涉及到特定的政治人物所以沒有必要再討論下去如果說是這個的話那我們協商可能就可以結束如果說是針對法條認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
4097.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
4107.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
可以去尋求大家有共同方向的共識的話那我們再請主管機關來做說明然後在對文字上面再做多多多多的討論這樣子我想才會比較有意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
4109.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4131.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
我要再講一下我剛剛發言的重點之一第一個就是疫情的情節就是還是高於緩刑因為緩刑不會留下前科這是很明確的可是疫情會那另外就是如果放寬疫情處分者參選那你等於是允許犯罪者用錢勞力可以處理完他的刑期之後就能參選 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4131.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4134.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那這跟我們之前修這一條的一個原則是違背的那當然就是民眾黨的代表可以說他不認識高鴻安你個人不認識他可是外界都已經有這麼多質疑了這不是說那這是民眾黨版的提案然後國民黨可能會支持這不是個人誰認識誰就能夠讓外界不懷疑我們立法院為個案開這個門 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4158.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4172.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那剛剛已經講到了之前大家只對放寬緩行是有共識的那你個人可能沒有共識好那我的理解那我想民眾黨團還是一樣我們就支持李博弈召委的修正動議的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4174.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4198.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我要再澄清一下就是剛剛講這個繳完錢好像繳錢就可以換參政權這件事情就現況的一刻罰金本來就是繳完就可以參選所以這個部分不會應該原本的法條就是這樣子不會說改了之後變成繳錢可以這個可能在條文上面可以再看得詳細一點這樣子那所以好林初峰委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4200.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4204.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
各位我還是要再講一個就是說因為我們沒有辦法看到民眾黨的這一個修正的內容所指的是什麼因為對我們來講我們看到這個條文的理解就是還是跟上一次一樣其實它就是整個疫情處分都可以參選因為它沒有任何改變我們的理解啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4219.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4236.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
因為一行處分我們知道醫科罰金嘛沒有繳的他也要放寬嘛然後醫科罰金沒有繳變成一行勞役的他也可以參選嘛那接下來就是說像高鴻安的他不能夠醫科罰金可是他可以變成義扶社會勞動的他也可以參選所以這個條文看起來不管怎麼樣看起來還是維持原狀所以我們不能夠理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4245.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4249.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
主席你說到底是這個修正條文大家有沒有共識可是連這個條文的內容所指是什麼它這個意涵是什麼我們真的看不出來不是啦 不是看不出來而是它所指的內容我們的認知就是三種疫情處分仍然維持原狀都是可以選的 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4265.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4275.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
他這個條文簡直是障眼法我說不好意思但我還是要說真的是障眼法這個叫做欲蓋彌彰那你就直接說你為此原狀就好了為什麼對我們來講從條文內容來看他就是為此原狀啊為什麼要故意轉一折然後變成這一種文字讓一般人也看不懂我就覺得是有一種有一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4289.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4308.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
取我不曉得不為人知的什麼事情啦所以我們是不是還是請司法院的部門來表示意見我覺得我們有必要先釐清再決定說我們要不要繼續討論或者是沒有共識之所以請淑芬委員跟那個范議員先確認一下你們要堅持李博弈的版本嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4309.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4320.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
如果說有要堅持李博弈的版本的話不是啊 要看他提案的內容是什麼為什麼不讓司法院的...可以啊 當然可以啊就是說我剛剛一直說如果說大家對於那個...他剛剛講說如果把直接間接拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4321.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4339.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
那還涵不涵蓋這個這個涵不涵蓋這個誣告罪的案子如果大家真的認為有要實質討論的話那當然就請市法院討論如果說大家認為沒有這不是實質討論是法理上的討論牽扯到政治人物認為沒有討論必要的話那就沒有協商的意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4340.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4343.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
我本來是想聽他們的意見,但如果你們堅持不要的話大家討論條文的話,我們就是聽司法院的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4366.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4382.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
主席 委員還有各位先進那那個司法院這邊代表報告那關於那個就是這個應該說司法院這邊就這個公職人員選舉的候選人消極資格的修正就是這個市政政策決定這邊我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4383.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4396.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
本院都予以尊重那關於緩刑的這個部分就是在但書緩刑的這個部分我們只是希望說這個緩刑的部分因為配合公職人員選舉罷免法第29條因為緩刑未來會有一個撤銷的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4403.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4407.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
那他在這個如果是在這個公告或者是投票前緩行如果有遭撤銷的時候這個部分在參選資格裡面他的當選的會不會有無效的情形我們希望在這個部分大家可以進一步釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4422.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4445.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那再来就是关于疫情处分的这个部分其实关于疫情处分它的前提都是依照这个41条的第一项还有第三项的规定它的前提都是受六个月以下的有期徒刑的宣告所以它其实都是六个月以下有期徒刑的宣告它会才来决定说 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4446.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4470.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
這個部分進入可不可以異刑處分那至於可不可以異刑處分這個決定權不在司法院在法務部要等到這個判決確定了送進去執行之後由這個法務部的甲官執行甲官來決定說我要不要給他一刻還是我要讓他進去服刑這個部分的決定權不在司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4471.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4500.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
那司法院依照条文的规定法官们可以做的决定就是说当他的有期徒刑是在六个月以下的时候我可以定定一颗罚金的标准就是说我这个如一颗罚金以新台币一千元折算一日或者是以一颗罚金两千元折算一日所以在司法院这边决定的我们的主文里面的一颗罚金我们只是决定一个一颗罚金的标准 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4501.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4524.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
對所以這個部分然後至於那個一服社會勞動這個部分這個部分是因為不符合一科法金的標準所以這個部分也要等到到執行甲官那邊去的時候他才會去決定說那這個部分我要不要讓他一服社會勞動好這個部分是這個法律概念的補充說明以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4525.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4533.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那最重要的是許宗慶委員這樣子的文字在你們司法界認為在理解上面有困難嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4540.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4556.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
就是應該是說我們可能需要進一步理性就是所謂的義扶社會勞動的這一個概念到底是指在執行的面向還是在宣告的面向因為在宣告的這個面向 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4557.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4575.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
不會有這個東西嗎不會有在法官的這個主文裡面不會出現一服社會勞動的折算標準因為一服社會勞動的折算標準在這個刑法的第41條第2項已經有明定了對 以上就是到檢察官那邊同意了之後才會有一服 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4577.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4593.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
社會勞動嘛所以說要達成這個條件就是要檢察官才有可能就是法院當然是有一個前提啦然後檢察官這邊也才同意這樣的方案才會有一幅社會勞動嘛所以說那個參考時間你應該是檢察官同意啦而不是法院的判決書嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4594.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4619.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
先說這個是屬於我們判決之後我們科處有期出行之後後端執行的問題這樣子主席這個事情不就是以高鴻安為例因為他的誣告罪是七年以下所以他不能夠議科罰金而他判六個月但是他不能議科罰金但是到執行面的時候現在社會上執行檢察官都會允許他變成罰社會勞動他本來是 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4622.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4632.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
不能夠一刻罰金到那裡執行會變成財事層是罰他社會勞動所以他所謂的間接社會勞動所指的應該是這個意思我不曉得你們的間接是什麼意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4638.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4661.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
直接或間接社會勞動 但事實上他不是判社會勞動啊 他沒有這種判決他是判他六個月啦他沒有 所以我們不曉得他的文字是什麼他的文字是什麼意思 我們不得而知對司法院來說 無論是直接或間接啦 依附社會勞動都不會在司法院啦一定都是要檢察官同意 才會有這樣子的行政處分嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4664.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4671.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
屬於刑的執行,所以是屬於甲官的執行好,那我們就請法務部,那個楊檢察官先對這樣子的文字的理解大家有沒有看不懂的問題然後接下來就講一下我們實務面 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4683.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4708.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
文字的部分因為的確在社會我們社會勞動條文裡面是沒有看到直接或間接這樣的用語我大概看一下是沒有這樣的用語當然剛剛委員講的我大概可以理解但是因為條文沒有這樣的用語所以最後實際上要怎麼樣的用語我想我們還是尊重這個主管機關跟大院這邊的審議結果是 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4712.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4730.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
主席另外一個問題是說就是實質的部分就是我們檢察官就剛我們剛討論到檢察官這邊就是法院的判決書下來了嘛那後續如果有得罰那個疫情的話我們這邊實務的做法是不是誠如剛剛廖法官講的這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4731.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4756.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
對 大部分就是說到執行檢察官這邊再來決定說是否給予這個因為可能當事人會來申請說這個醫科罰金或者是這個一福社的勞動那都是在執行檢察官在做個案的判斷那我們有這個檢察機關辦理一福社勞動罪的要點那裡面都有相關的一些要件啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4758.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4786.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
來判斷說是否應給他或是得給他這個社會勞動但是因為還是每個個案來判斷所以我在那邊沒有辦法告訴你說什麼案件一定會給或什麼案件一定不會給這樣子所以法務部的見解就是這個一服社會勞動就是一服社會勞動對你們法條說沒有直接或間接當然就是我們大概都知道許中興委員是什麼意思但是法令上或許沒有這樣子寫過那如果說真的要討論這件事情的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4787.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4813.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
那就直接把直接或間接拿掉對啊 因為沒有分直接或間接嘛只要是一副社會勞動就是一副社會勞動你這個沒有定義啊沒有定義法律上沒有這種東西啊就是檢察官同意了我覺得當然有一個判決書在前提嘛然後檢察官之後就看要不要會用那個不是啦 你這樣才是障眼法你事實上這樣一顆髮金沒有繳的也是可以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4813.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4836.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
因為一顆罰金沒有講到最後也是社會勞動啊然後被判刑不能夠一顆罰金的到最後也是社會勞動啊所以你現在這個就只要所有的你這個放寬到哪裡我們都不知道欸你聽了我的意思嗎像他不能夠一顆罰金的連一顆罰金都不行喔他的罪是偏重的喔然後這一種到執行面最後也是會裁罰他社會勞動這一種你也可以選 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4839.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4850.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
然後呢還有一種就是說剛剛講是高雄安的另外一種是一個罰金不繳的最後也是社會勞動所有的途徑重的不能夠一個罰金最後也是社會勞動輕的可以一個罰金最後的途徑到最後執行面也是社會勞動只要是社會勞動你全部都可以那當然是就有待爭議了 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4868.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4883.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
所以您有說德意科法庭是比較輕的啊不是啦 這個跟緩刑來比都是偏重的啦判決上都偏重的啦沒有 我們黨團是 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4886.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4892.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
是堅持李博弈版本那我個人是不老實說不不反對可以討論但是我反對在這個時候幫高鴻安解套我個人就是這樣子你應該是幫那一個在門聯考大考外面販賣考題的人去去幫他想辦法解套而不是幫一個擁有權力的人解套啦所以你更應該做的是幫那一個普通的人民而不是幫一個市長啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4914.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4918.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
至於說 誣告罪判決公不公平我覺得這個就是另一個問題 老實說啦另一個問題了 對啦好 那既然民眾 抱歉 既然民進黨團堅持的話就是這個 李柏毅版本的話 那有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4932.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4932.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
有關本日之協商會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4944.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4961.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
既然沒有共識,再要本席擬句結論如下本日協商過程公開,發言內容均已記錄因人代繼續溝通取得共識後續以請院長召開協商會議辦理那謝謝各位協商黨團代表及行政機關代表,現在散會 |