| IVOD_ID |
17431 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17431 |
| 日期 |
2026-05-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
公聽會-2026050515 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
舉行「空氣污染防制法」公聽會 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
公聽會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會（事由：舉行「空氣污染防制法」公聽會） |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-05-11T14:23:31+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-05-11T17:29:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:05:29 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685979b49e85773c2c6f10737f9cc947168b7b695d4fecf9ee963a128c4f8a0c2685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-05-11T14:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會（事由：舉行「空氣污染防制法」公聽會） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:23:31 - 17:29:00 |
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谢谢大家 |
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33.046 |
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33.302 |
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MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO |
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78.632 |
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MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
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146.146 |
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感谢观看 |
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159.633 |
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谢谢大家 |
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669.206 |
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好現在開始開會今天下午本會舉行供氣污染防治法公聽會謝謝各位學者專家及各政府機關代表列領指教本次公聽會探討的議題以提供為準請自行參閱各位與會的機關 |
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680.057 |
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688.629 |
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政府機關代表、專家學者、產業界代表、公民團體代表以及關心空氣品質與國民健康的各位先進大家下午好 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
693.496 |
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711.524 |
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今天公聽會我們希望各位專家機關與民間團體能夠協助釐清幾個關鍵問題第一公法與法院管理法規之間界限應該如何劃分第二地方自治與中央以這標準之間如何取得平衡第三固定污染源許可證 |
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713.945 |
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727.294 |
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是否應採取風險分級第四產業可預期性與民眾健康風險如何在法制上同時被看見第五環境部經濟部衛福部是否應共同提出更完整的健康風險與產業轉型配套 |
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730.424 |
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751.954 |
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最后本席再次强调改善空气品质不是单一部会的责任也不是单靠一句维持现行就能够回应社会期待好的修法不应该造成行政混乱但好的治理也不能让地方政府与民众在污染风险里面面前没有工具期待今天透过充分讨论让这次空风法修法能够 |
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752.974 |
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776.402 |
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能從對立走向釐清 從口號走向制度從單純管制走向更成熟的風險治理謝謝各位 接下來我們進入今天的議場現在介紹在場委員歡迎理念秦昭緯陳昭之委員 |
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781.492 |
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807.062 |
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現在介紹在場學者專家第一 立法院法治局的前局長羅傳賢台大皇宮所助理教授嚴秀慧全國工業總會副理事長陳宏文長榮大學教授賴信治 |
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811.114 |
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834.578 |
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婦產科醫學會婦女健康小組召集人葉官凡陳大黃工系教授吳玉玲台中市徵好器聯盟執行長岳祥文台灣野蠻新竹心態協會常務理事陳憲政 |
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841.906 |
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858.019 |
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台中市大台中醫事工會前理事長魏崇耀台大醫防醫學研究所博士上均席屏東環境保護聯盟理事長洪輝祥 |
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867.301 |
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892.689 |
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行政機關代表 介紹在場行政機關代表環境部政務次長 謝燕如大賜環境師副市長 郭孟雲專門委員 謝仁碩衛福部社區健康組組長 劉家秀經濟部政務次長 何敬昌 |
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895.543 |
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905.689 |
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南雲署主任秘書 溫淑珍廠發署副署長 陳國勳國營事業管理師 中聯委員 陳建堂台電副總經理 鄭慶紅農業部永續利用師科長 杜啟華訓練師科長 鄭嘉鴻 |
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924.929 |
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952.122 |
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交通部國際事務司專門委員 林金生內政部民政司專門委員 董代淑黃國科院南部科學管理局主任秘書 關嘉明法務部法治司專門委員 邱立芬國務院環境醫學研究所研究員 林彬彬 |
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958.238 |
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962.646 |
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接下來請環境部環境部代表報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
971.957 |
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998.667 |
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主席各位委員各位先進大家午安大家好今天非常榮幸能代表環境部受邀列席社會福利及衛生環境委員會參與空氣環防治法修法的公聽會並向各位進行報告我們都知道空氣品質的改善跟全體國民的健康息息相關這也是社會大眾非常關心的核心議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
999.927 |
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1020.089 |
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空氣污染的來源非常多元包括工廠、電廠、機動車輛、餐飲以及露天燃燒種類相當繁多那針對這些污染源現行的空氣管防治法經過歷年來幾次的修法之後其實已經具備了相當完備的管制規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1021.482 |
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1038.012 |
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那在中央與地方政府多年的共同合作下我們的空氣品質已經有大幅度的改善這邊向各位報告兩個具體的數據首先全國PM2.5的手動監測年均值已經從102年的24.0微克顯著下降到114年的12.8微克降幅有46.7% |
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1045.916 |
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1068.808 |
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其次全國PM2.5的總排放量也從45000多公噸降到27000多公噸減少了4成這也是全國大家一起努力的一個目前的成果那這也顯示出我們現行的各項管制措施包含固定無燃油的許可管制方式可以有效的發揮預防跟管理的成效 |
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1069.528 |
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1086.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那另外環境部也協同地方政府依照空污法第40條授權化設空氣品質維護區那到目前為止全國有化設了105處的空危區那持續強化移動污染源等的一個管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1087.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1103.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
此外為落實健康臺灣的施政願景建構全面的空氣品質和國民健康守護的機制環境部已經和衛福部籌組成立了空氣污染與健康影響專家諮詢會這次由我們雙次長來主持 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1105.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
1115.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
到目前為止已經召開了三次會議我們持續整合了環境的防治跟公共衛生的策略來強化大眾對生活環境風險的防護實踐全民永續健康的一個願景 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
1119.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1135.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那對各位委員這次提出的空汙法修正草案本部在審慎評估之後那麼有以下三點的意見來跟大家說明第一點我們認為燃料的使用它是能源管理的範疇 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1136.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
1162.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那在一次修法的草案當中提到有關限制禁止生煤燃料的使用也明定了這個燃煤機組的太儲的其成那這部分其實我們認為是牽涉到國家整體的能源供應安全跟相關的法規那麼在法治層面上其實我們是覺得有一點超越了這個單純的空氣管防止法的立法規範範疇 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
1164.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
1185.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那第二點修改許可審查制度這個影響範圍比較廣那草案當中要求修改許可證的展延有效期間還有展延審查期間的操作規定那目前全國有將近8000家的廠商總計有13000多張的許可證那如果是修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
1186.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
1211.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
過的話其實預期會有大幅增加業者申請還有地方政府的行政作業的負擔影響的範圍我們認為比較廣泛那第三點是法制面在草案中那賦予地方主管機關在許可審查展延的時候可以單方面來變更許可條件縮短有效期間那甚至要求停止操作 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
1212.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
1238.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那這些條文在法律的明確性方面跟現行的法律還有信賴保護原則是不是也要去檢討一下它的這個是不是有抵觸對這個相關的規定那麼草案內容也可能跟地方制度法中的地方政府制定的自治條例規定以及行政程序法中有關行政處分付款的規範那這些都我們是希望都能夠來釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
1239.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
1255.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那最後環境部非常感謝委員們對改善空氣品質的用心跟利益任何只要對空氣品質有提升的這個做法我們都非常的歡迎也願意來配合那當然這一次呢基於這次修法內容設局 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
1256.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
1285.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
可能有包括能源管理權限而且對於其他法律的相關性也有一些疑慮需要來消除所以我們環境部建議以現行的法規來維持暫時不用來修正但未來我們一定會持續跟地方政府緊密來合作落實並精進各項空汙改善作為把關大家的呼吸健康以上報告恭請各位委員以先進來指正謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
1288.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
1291.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
謝謝次長現在請經濟部代表報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
1301.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
1319.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
主席 各位委員 女士先生們 大家午安今日貴委員會安排公聽會針對大院羅委員 庭委等43人與台灣民眾黨團提出《空氣污染防治法》相關條文修正草案僅代表經濟部向貴委員會提出報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
1321.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
1340.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
空氣品質攸關國民的健康為社會大眾所關注在環境部及各地環保局積極的管制目的事業主管機關和加強輔導及業者的配合改善的情況之下全國PM2.5年平均濃度從2019年降至2025年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
1344.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
1360.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
比例達到改善21%中南部的改善成效更為顯著降幅達到24.4%顯見在各單位的積極配合下國人的生活品質逐漸提升本部依據行政院核定的空氣碗防治方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
1360.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
1381.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
所属各机关皆积极执行空气网防治及辅导的工作具体的推动措施包含台电公司逐年推动电厂防治设备升级改善中油推动石化厂更新废弃回收系统等产业方案署及园区管理局积极推动产业空污防治技术宣导工作等 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
1383.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
1400.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
針對這一次的提案修正第30條及27條、28條全國工業總會和工業區廠商聯合總會已經在日前發布新聞稿表示相關內容將使產業面臨停工的風險影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
1401.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
1431.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
投資可預期對能源及產業的營運穩定造成以下巨大的衝擊第一許可證未完成審查及失效讓產業會面臨停工的風險提案修正第30條規定展延申請的期間操作許可效期期滿只要地方政府兩個月內未完成審查及不得操作這個後果是由產業承擔地方政府未能及時審查完成這樣的一個情況是極不合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
1431.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
1446.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
第二下修許可證效期及縮短三級房市區展年的期限會衝擊產業的經濟的一個發展提案修正第三十條將許可證展年有效期間由三至五年縮短為二至五年增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
1447.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1462.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
營運的業者及主管機關行政的負擔而且不利於穩定操作會違背信賴保護原則另外修正30條新增三級防治區可縮短展年期限至兩年以下 恐使西部 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1463.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1491.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
多數的電廠與高科技的產業許可證有效期限大無縮短而且會增加頻繁申請的一個負擔第三地方政府可片面強制要求業者減量造成中央和地方管制規定不一提案修正第27條刪除鼓勵業者主動申請新舊式製程同步改善污染的友善機制且直接授權地方政府可以加碼要求業者配合減量不但 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1491.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1506.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
會增加營運的風險而且缺乏中央監督的機制容易產生中央跟地方管制的標準不一的情況第四 地方政府可片面公告禁止電廠使用燃料將可能衝擊全國的一個用電 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1507.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1532.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
這次提案修正第28條的規定一及地方政府得直接公告禁止或限制使用生煤、燃油、SRF等燃料此舉將會導致全國各地的公民電廠將會面臨運作受到限制的一個疑慮影響國家能源供應的穩定同時各行業的工廠、鍋爐業者也可能因為燃料遭禁而無法營運 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1534.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1562.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
第五法律不明明確影響企業投資的可預期性提案修正30條允許地方政府在展延審查時得以認定有削減或加嚴操作條件的必要性有健康風險之餘為由並更原許可的內容該修正的條文規範模糊空白授權反而可能會衍生執行不確定性與重複管制的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1564.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1585.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那針對這次公聽會提案本部有以下幾項的回應的說明第一穩健推動能源轉型逐步汰換既有燃煤機組且不再新增我國從2018年開始就不再新增燃煤機組整體燃煤的發電佔比從2014年47.3%降至2025年的35.4%減少11.9%第二近年台電公司火力電廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1594.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1616 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
減煤減污成效顯著台電公司過去十年重要的時機包括第一台電全火力電廠空污排放量減少近七成台中電廠第二台中電廠規劃明確蒸汽減煤及無煤化其成空污減排已近八成減排績效 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1619.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1624.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
佔全台中市79%第三 興達電廠四部燃煤機組已於2025年全數轉為備用燃煤機組排放量減少99%用煤量減少97% |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1635.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1660.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
第三 環境部公布整體空污排放的數據火力電廠空污排放影響占比低非主要污染的來源依據環境部資料指出電廠空污排放量占比僅占整體空污的9%力酸物污染物PM2.5影響占比只有2.3%經濟部認為空污的改善一定要全力以赴 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1663.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1679.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
並從點線面等多種面向切入治理不能只針對電廠持續將衝擊民生及產業的用電的權利第四本次修正禁止燃料使用以及委員主張強制提早太除燃煤機組等將嚴重衝擊穩定供電 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1682.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1708.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
本次修法授權地方政府限制燃煤使用量甚至可以禁止燃煤使用將嚴重影響全國的電力調度及供電的穩定性而且也進一步強制要求2028年底前汰除亞林界燃煤機組2033年底前汰除超超林界燃煤機組等將會使我國的供電系統失去關鍵機載的電力導致嚴重的缺電的危機 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1715.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1727.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
將對全電力的系統區域的電網以及產業的產業鏈造成不可往的衝擊在全系統供電的風險方面會有2028年缺電危機以及2033年供電人會有疑慮的這樣的一個風險第二區域 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1735.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1753.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
供電嚴重的一個失衡在北東電網的部分包括台北大同中山區與東的地區約有480萬人高度仰賴外部電網的一個融通若和平電廠提早在2028年底除役北東供電缺口將達500萬千瓦 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1755.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1778.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
無法滿足北東地區用電的一個需求台北市內湖科技園區以及基隆河谷等用電可能會受到影響第二中部地區未來中部地區用電的一個需求持續會增加尤其中科園區以及後里園區在2030年前將新增用電約150萬千瓦 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1781.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1795.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
若中國其他六部機組330萬千瓦於2028年提早退役中部仍將陷入缺電的風險更將衝擊中科及後里園區的用電需求影響中部及我國經濟的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1796.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1818.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
第五台中電廠燃煤基礎將逐步除役規劃2034年達成台中電廠無煤供電的一個目標各界關切中火無煤其成行政院已責成台電公司2032年重新檢討六部緊急備用燃煤基礎的存費並宣示2034年底達成台中電廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1819.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1841.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
無煤供電的目標 敬請各界支持政府兼顧穩定供電及降低燃煤發電的務實規劃我國已經全面停止興建燃煤機組過去十年 電力業積極推動能源轉型 以氣換煤投入聚資 升級空污防治設備 整體減少空污排放近七成 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1844.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1849.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
當電業已經窮盡一切的努力做到最大的減量的作為的同時空的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1852.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1872.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
卻罔顧影響空品的原因忽視空品改善必須多元的治理單單將空污減排焦點加諸電力恐將導致用電用減電來換減排的困境結果不僅嚴重威脅民生的用電需求重創臺灣高科技產業的國際競爭力又無助改善我國的空氣品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1873.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1891.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
本次空污法修正的條文恐使已有固定污染源操作許可的8000家廠商面臨許可證未完成審查及失效的停工風險因此產業界也已經對外公開強烈呼籲維持現行管理機制不宜貿然通過修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1893.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1919.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
修法應建立在明確且具備可預期的前提下原理為避免對企業營運能源韌性造成重大衝擊本部再次預請立法院能體察明摩維持現行空污法的管理機制以上報告敬請各位委員及專家學者指教謝謝謝謝次長補充介紹南投縣健康空氣行動聯盟發起人林翠蘭 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1923.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1932.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
大衡國際法律事務所律師李全和國立中心大學皇宮系教授莊炳傑 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1940.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1960.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
本次会议不汇集学者专家所提供之相关书面资料均列入记录刊登公报与会人员发言前请先宣告以下事项学者专家及本院委员每位发言时间6分钟为简报方便学者专家发言请至主席台右边的发言台 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1961.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1987.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
原则上有学者专家先行一千道顺序发言委员如要发言请到主席台登记我们会议委员登记发言顺序及学者专家发言顺序交错安排进行全部人员发言完毕后再请行政机关做整体回应暂定下午四点休息十分钟现在请登记第一位罗传贤发言 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2000.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2028.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
主席 國務委員 還有各位教授 還有各位來賓因為我本身是研究我的研究領域是行政法跟立法學所以我今天請就這個我所學的背景來跟各位分享我們今天的議題的一個法律的演者第一點請那個幫我翻一下 翻篇那個有沒有這個好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2030.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2057.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
好那麼我們今天我看到因為107年我們空屋法修正的時候是用還給過地方政府有有有那個規劃錢現在已經全部歸中央那麼我們從立法學的原理來看我們雙贏互補各奪其所就是我們家在各種利益裡面來驚鴻來考量那我們立法學有一個很重要的原理就是原錢尊重於受惠福祉的調和換句話說就是我們要對 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2060.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2078.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
這個先天不利益 或者是我們這個等於受惠情境 在我們現時的受惠 特殊的情境下已經不利益的人也就是我們所謂的弱勢 弱勢族群我們要給他最大的照顧 這個在立法學裡面是很重要的原理 譬如說我們對殘障者 對幼兒 對老人 對這個低收入戶我們為什麼給他很大的照顧呢 我們另外的照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2089.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2107.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
對地方對那個那個區域來講也有照顧的比如說我們現在的原住民區市裡面的原住民區跟部落我們都是法律都給他們就是公法人的地位既有公法人他透視地位透視另外我們也給離島建設條例給離島 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2110.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
2124.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
給他免關 減免稅階給他這個管制的一個比較優惠寬容這些呢 就都是對這個人權尊重所有福祉那我們知道這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
2125.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
2142.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
地方的洗口錢或燃煤的洗口錢只要沒有改回來的話那我們會認為有背離對人錢的尊重這部分對弱勢族群是不利的因為我們電廠所在地的人民是受苦的以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
2143.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
2167.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
第二個 我們要注意因地制宜 規劃難免使用洗口這個才有正當性因為空氣污染既有高度的地域性質 這個我不再強制我們為什麼過去很多的法治都給地方政府很大的權力譬如說都更啦 都市建設啦 或者是交通管制啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
2168.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
2187.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
還有環保的問題的部分包括垃圾都是下放給地方為什麼呢因為地方政府有地方的民力比較貼近地方一方面他們也會提高他的行政效力就從這個地方政府的權力來看要下放給地方有他的好處在內 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
2188.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
2208.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
比較符合正當性因為我們這個燃煤這個東西因為燃煤電廠所在地的人他是一個受害者他是一個非常不利益的人我們希望能夠盡量做到這一點第三點我認為地方燃煤使用吸口症才能達到立法目的你們知道我們所謂的立法第一條我們所謂法治第一條都有立法目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
2209.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
2225.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
第一條 那我們空氣污染防治法第一條說為了防治空氣污染維護生活環境及國民健康這一計畫維護生活環境國民健康這個就是最重要的就是我們達成因為這個我們的第一條立法目的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
2226.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
2249.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
我們一般我們在食物上我們叫做火抽土他帶動了所有後面的條文他也說是一個我們門檻的一個要素他的創造了後面的條文那我們看後面條文呢這個有沒有增加維護生物環境國民健康呢目前真的是有爭議的嘛目前是爭議中所以這一次才有修法的空間我們就知道這個PM2.5這個東西造成我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
2253.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
2275.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
當地的政府的 我們人民的國民健康跟他的恐懼感 空污的恐懼感這就是我們第一條沒有達成嘛 表示我們現在還沒有達成所以第一條目的沒有貫措接下來我們現在有定環保基本法那麼因為各位知道我們本來是定在那個基本國措現在基本國措當時候講說經濟與 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
2278.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
2296.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
環保堅守並細應該兩個共同發展但是因為環境一直改變中我們還訂了一個環保基本法訂除了基本國座以外還訂了一個基本法這個基本法這是一個核心的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
2297.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
2315.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
他這裡面有特別提到很多條我現在這個proport裡面所提到過級政府啦還有這個地方政府啦這個就是他們要給他們進到有空污防治的一個權限那麼我們再要符合功能最適的原因我們立法裡面說我們要找到那個公權力要權力分配的時候我們給他功能最適的機關才做 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
2325.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
2330.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那我們公有罪事機關,我們陣內應該是地方政府來做比較,要看它裡面的事項我舉個例子,我以前當過,我最早期當過新聞局的廣電處長那廣電處裡面管那個有線電視跟無線,它是不一樣的法源無線就管電視,廣播電視,廣播電視因為它有頻道的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
2350.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
2371.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
有線電視沒有頻道問題頻道的稀少性我們能夠有幾家無線電台300多家廣播電台沒有另外其他增加的空間因為頻道是稀少性那麼這個有線電視它是拉線拉線就是造成地方的政府的我們說都市觀戰的問題所以要注意功能最適 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
2382.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
2383.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
謝謝羅傳賢局長接下來請嚴秀慧教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
2398.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
2414.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
主席各位委員各位先進大家好今天很榮幸能到這邊來跟大家分享一些我對於空法修正草案的看法還有我們今天所要討論的議題那因為這些年來在學校裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
2414.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
2437.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
所教授的是環保法規的課程所以在這個研究的過程跟教學的經過歷程中那大概對於我們空污法的行使還有一個立法的順序還有立法的理由大概都有一些研究跟探討所以想這邊跟各位報告一下那首先對於我們議題裡面提到的減煤 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
2438.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
2456.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那減煤的確是有它的重要性跟必要性不過因為我們國內的行政法體系其實是非常的完整所以在空法的修法過程中期待能夠在我們行政法體系之下還有符合各項的法律原理原則的前提下來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
2457.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
2484.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
譬如說不當廉潔的禁止還有平等原則還有我們比例原則等等那如果這些原則都可以符合的話我相信我們的空污法它的修正跟它的執行都更能達到我們希望達到的目的那第二個想要談到的是我們有看到立法委員所提出來的一些修正案那裡面對於空污法的第27條有所修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
2485.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
2512.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那27条这一条如果查询我们立法院的立法原由立法历程里面的资料可以看得出来其实它是在民国81年的时候新增的那这个新增这个条款呢倒也不是无中生有它是参考国外的政策那在我们立法院的资料里面很明确的写到27条它是参考国外所谓的污染泡 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
2512.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
2516.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
污染源的改善是由於防治技術的不同所需的投資也不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
2529.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
2550.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那基於數個污染源排放總量管制跟經濟效益的考慮所以在有利於空氣品質的前提下希望個別污染源的排放可以不受到排放標準的限制那我想這樣的立法考量就是要將有限的資源來做最有效的配置那我們目前在 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
2551.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
2569.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
講究永續發展那各位也可以知道永續發展其實是除了環境以外經濟跟社會其他的面向也都非常的重要所以我想這個污染砲的政策它其實是非常符合我們三大面向兼顧的這樣子的目標跟精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
2570.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
2588.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
所以我想這邊還是建議我們要保持維持原來27條這樣的立法精神至於立委想要去增加的一些規範是不是我們可以使用空法其他的條款來達成一樣的目的我想這可能有進一步探討的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
2589.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
2616.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
那第二點想要提到的是地方制度法的問題地方制度法第三章第二節的自治事項就是從第18條以下我們看到能源事項其實不是地方自治的事項所以如果我們在空污治理的時候希望在空污法裡面賦予地方政府比較多的權責而這些權責是涉及到能源事項的話那可能要請立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
2616.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
2636.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
要考慮到我們是不是同時要來修正地方制度法要不然不同的法律之間可能會有衝突那這是第二點那第三點呢因為我們行政體系整個法制其實非常完整從88年到現在很多行政法的前輩一直把 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
2637.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
2664.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
行政法體系架構出來那現在行政程序法裡面有特別提到法規命令是抽象規範那行政處分呢才是具體規定所以在這邊我想建議的是我們如果是法規命令的話盡量還是要用抽象規範的方式來訂定不要說在法規命令裡面去針對特定的單一的污染源去做規範因為如果是這樣子規範的話它就變成是具體個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
2666.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
2687.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那其實就跟我們行政程序法裡面的規範是相衝突的所以在這個部分的話可能也是請我們立法委員來考量一下我們空運法的規範是不是完整還是要在行政程序法的架構下去進行檢視所以像這個主管機關的裁量權界限 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
2687.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
2702.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
可能这边也可以一并的探讨所以基本上还是建议法规命令还是要抽象规范不特定多数人都可以适用比较好不要去针对特定的对象去定法规命令这不太符合法律的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
2705.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
2731.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
時間快了還沒到好那最後一點剛好可以在時間裡面講到我們訴願法第二條其實有規定人民應中央或地方機關對依法申請的案件如果應作為不作為的話是可以訴願的所以審查超過時間的話其實是可以訴願的所以我想這個部分主管機關的嚴當人民是可以救濟所以這個部分我想如果是因為審查嚴當 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
2733.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
2754.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
造成的許可空窗期應該不應該對人民造成不利益那這樣可能對我們整個空污管制的完整性會有所傷害那因為我事先有提供檔案那各位手上可能也有書面的資料如果沒有講解的很清楚的地方那麻煩大家參考書面資料以上謝謝謝謝嚴教授接下來請陳昭之委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
2768.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
2776.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
主席 各位專家學者 各位同事還有關心臺灣供給品質的國人們我代表臺灣民眾黨黨團來發言感謝同為一二體系出身的盧縣議委員願意排勝《空汙法》的第30條大家一起為各地 尤其是中南部鄉親的健康權益而努力今天的公聽會討論《空汙法》第30條的修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
2792.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
2796.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
事實上新達34號這個燃煤機組許可證早在2024年9月30號就到齊了那去年民眾黨接貨陳情了新達電廠偷開燃煤機組的訊息所以黃國昌主席就帶領我們黨團的立委跟高雄在地的市議員我們在5月27號的時候前往新達電廠去做實地考察 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
2814.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
2818.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
我們也與台電還有在這個高雄市政府直接對話當時也有很多非常很多關心這件事的在地的居民他們在電廠外抗議表達反對反對偷開燃煤機組那我們在考察這個興達電廠的時候發現興達電廠還有其他電廠包括台中發電廠有好幾個燃煤機組事實上它的操作許可證早已經到期 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
2841.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
2854.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
但是依照現行的空污法第30條只要台電向地方政府申請展延在申請展延的當中不論多久台電可以繼續使用已經過期的許可證就是繼續使用這個機組來做發電這是非常嚴重而不可思議的事情我想請問大家便利商店過期的一袋麵可以吃嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
2864.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
2876.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
超商食品販售標準尚且比民進黨政府的燃煤基礎要求還要嚴謹喔無論是超商或小吃店我們他們都知道每天他們最繁瑣最重要的工作之一就是不斷的確認食品或用料有沒有過期我要再舉例醫師藥師這邊在場有很多醫師藥師護理師等專業人員他們的證照只要一天過期只要你沒有補足繼續教育學分 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
2888.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
2894.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
去update最新的知識跟技能他就一天過期一天就不能執驗藥品許可證也是過期一天就不能夠販賣因此廠商都會提前半年提前半年去申請展演以免供貨停止了影響到病人的用藥權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
2909.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
2915.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
但是我們的政府卻讓台電的燃煤機組利用空無法的後門條款我為什麼說它後門條款呢這是2018年民進黨這個全面執政就是說國會多數的時候偷偷改掉的在那之前並非如此這個後門條款在操作許可證過期後允許繼續發電 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
2925.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
2945.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
環境部二行程機車都知道要淘汰要實施救換新那麼大的一台燃煤機組開啟究竟排了多少空氣污染物現在被高雄人發現了為了拉升這個被軟容量的需要硬是偷開燃煤機組空污法第三條本來就是一條開後門讓台電無照燒煤的法案那經濟部在上週剛剛也報告了是說會影響8000多家產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
2954.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
2960.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那請問這個不就是拿民間業者來綁架立法院嗎要讓台電繼續無照消滅我要請問經濟部這8000家公司反對修法是怎麼來的哪8000家我們需要索取這個資料這數字怎麼來我們要知道是哪8000家公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
2972.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
2976.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
所以在草案的法規細節內容如果大家認為可以排除中小企業或排除低排放相對比較乾淨的天然氣鍋爐的業者這個都可以討論這個都可以討論因為法律不是死的但是台電無照消明 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
2989.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
2996.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
沒有人可以接受啊臺灣民眾今天再次表達我們強烈的反對電廠無照消明我們在本屆第三會期兩個會期前其實已經提出了第30條的修法草案我們把公司場公司場所固定的污染源的許可證展延時間有效期間從3到5年縮短為2到5年我們希望讓地方主管機關要求申請單位能夠及時去檢討污染排放的情形此外 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3016.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3037.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
許可證期滿之後如果還在審查期間按照原來許可證的內容繼續操作兩個月時間到了機組就必須停止操作設一個停止點避免現在允許無限期的依照原本舊的許可證內容操作的不合理狀況這兩個月也有它的合理性就是不會造成像中火 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3038.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3058.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
當地方政府根據地方的需求要求台電提出減少排放的一些承諾卻越補正知道整個卡住了所以台灣民眾黨在此我們要再重申我們支持國家開發用電但開發用電不是允許過期的機組繼續燃燒發電這樣子吸收民眾的健康你想要重啟燃煤機組就必須設立許可證展延申請停止點而不是說只要準博還沒有下來未定就無限上綱 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3068.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3070.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
那如此還需要做審查嗎 以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3088.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
3103.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
各位先進還有各位關心空屋治理的朋友們大家好今天談空屋法的修法我的基本立場很清楚空屋治理要更嚴謹但不能夠更混亂因為這次修法最大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
3105.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
3124.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
不是不要減污而是我覺得在野黨的版本把固定污染源的管制地方的自治跟能源管理產業供應鏈跟許可證全部混在一起卻沒有明確的標準也沒有完整的衝擊評估我認為這場討論不應該變成中央跟地方誰權限大 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
3128.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
3150.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
然後比來的一個競賽真正要回答的是人民到底吸進去的污染有沒有變小有沒有變少健康風險有沒有下降污染熱區有沒有被看見還有我很關心的兒童長者甚至如果是慢性疾病的人這些敏感族群跟人口密集區有沒有被制度保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
3151.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
3176.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那現行的固定的污染源的管制呢也涵蓋了整個的各種的管理措施那這幾年呢固定管理源排放確實有改善可是代表制度不是失靈可是但也不代表可以滿足啦我主張的是政府治理呢成效要接受公開檢驗但修法不能把已經有效的制度打散空治理要更嚴不是更亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
3177.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
3204.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
要補強監測公開稽查跟熱區的管理不是用法律不明確的修法來製造新的風險反而會更不宜那環境部顯示全台PM2.5的來源當中藍莓電廠對全台平均濃度影響約1.4%那如果修法高度針對我們的藍莓電廠對整體的空污改善成效有限 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
3205.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
3233.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
卻可能牽動供電產業跟地方治理的風險我們必須關注的是住在火力電廠工業區大型鍋爐氣電共生場旁邊的居民他們每天面對的是家門口的風向煙囪排放量空瓶不良品然後降載時機跟備用機組的啟動以及長期暴露風險我們在意的不只是PM2.5而是各種污染物質對人體的危害 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
3233.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
3251.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
因此重點應該要擺在空污法的管制措施的落實是不是能夠保障有保障到固定污染源周邊的民眾而不是把法律搞得更混亂我認為要加強治理可以依空污法的第15條22條23條強化大型 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
3254.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
3262.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
固定污染源的周邊管理特別是我們在意的學校醫療院所跟人口密集的社區建立空瓶的監測與追蹤改善的機制那CMS的那個數據也是要強化獨立查核跟即時公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
3271.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
3293.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
治理要對準我們的污染跟破物風險不是把法律再三強調不要把法律改得更混亂那第27條呢不是整個工廠區的總量管制那因為這套制度的原因本來就不是放水而是讓容易改善的製程做到優化於法規的標準困難製程保留技術彈性但前提是 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
3294.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
3309.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
整个厂区的总排放量量必须符合标准换句话说就是用弹性换取更低的总排放量可政业党的版本呢把业者主动申请改成地方主管机关可以要求业者即应配合问题在于 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
3310.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
3339.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
請問一下什麼狀況可以要求污染熱區違規紀錄累積曝露風險健康風險評估條文都沒有去講清楚那就會造成兩個問題第一業者已經符合法規和排放標準的時候能可能被地方要求改善因為法律的明確性不足第二現行第8條到12條已經有總量的管制第20條也有地方加嚴的標準這次修法可能會形成重複管制所以我一直在強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
3340.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
3357.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
總量檢污可以談 地方主動治理也可以談但適用門檻 判斷標準 技術可行性改善騎乘跟救濟程序都必須要講清楚不能把原本促進減量的彈性工具變成法律不明確的強制命令 這並不適合 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
3359.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
3384.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那第28條呢那因為現行28條已經透過我們的染料分成成分的標準混燒比例搭配第20條的排放標準第23條的防治設備跟操作規範第24條的許可制度形成管理架構了那這一檔版本的問題是適當地方可以限制燃煤訂定燃煤減量跟鈦煤的那個期程甚至把這些條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
3385.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
3405.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
作為許可展現的薄荷的準則這已經不是談空污治理而是能源管理環境部也明確指出限制禁止生煤的使用跟藍煤機組的鈦煤的提成涉及到國家能源供應跟能源相關法規的時候以超越空污法的規範範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
3406.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
3421.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
更重要的是第28條影響的不只是中火也不只是大型的鋼鐵廠還包括石化業氣電工生廠以及食品加工廠跟紡織洗染等依賴鍋爐熱能的中小企業製造業所以我認為南門要管 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
3423.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
3447.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
但也要管污染物排放量跟健康風險不能讓各縣市各自禁燃料然後各自訂規則中央只剩下備查能源轉型要做但不能用空污法來製造政策能源政策的碎裂化那第30條呢談到固定污染源的需可展延我要講清楚需可展延不能變成是自動續照重大 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
3449.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
3455.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
我們的污染源當然要嚴格審查 重大違規者也應該縮短許可的期限 要求改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
3456.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
3482.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
但這樣的嚴格審查不等於是製造我們的行政不確定那因為環境部的顯示我想這些數據也在上面我就不追溯 可在業黨版本呢如果規定期限已到的話尚未完成我們的博准就不能夠繼續操作等於主管機關如果他審不完後果是由依法申請的業者承擔這還是一樣我要講是不是空污自理而是把行政 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
3482.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
3499.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
拓延變成是停工的風險而且我們現行的展延期效原本3年到5年已比美國的5年歐盟的8到12年的制度更嚴格了如果要往下限縮的話那產生更多的一些問題點所以我覺得檢務要做了但不能夠以斷鏈跟供電失衡來作為代價以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
3513.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
3513.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
工業總會副秘書長陳鴻文發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
3529.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
3557.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
這個主席還有那個各位前輩各位先進大家好那個今天很高興代表產業界來參加今天這樣一個公聽會那首先就是因為剛剛聆聽那個我們那個環境部跟經濟部長官的報告其實我們都可以瞭解就是我們近十年其實整個空氣品質跟整個空氣的整個空氣污染的這個排放其實是都大幅的改善成一個下降的一個趨勢那包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
3558.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
3585.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
就是如果我們從那個全國的一般策戰空氣品質也就是AQI的那個來做統計分析其實從105年開始去做統計之後其實那個AQI大於100的這樣一個比例其實是逐年下降到113年是有改善大概68%左右那我想這個部分都是顯示不管是政府也好還是從固定污染源還是那個移動污染源其實大家都共同的往這個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
3586.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
3612.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那個就是空氣污染減降低排放的這個努力共同這個方向去做發展我覺得整個空氣品質的一個改善成效都有目共睹那我想我們固定污染源這部分也是會持續去做努力跟改善我想這首先去做續名那接下來就是針對我們整個立法院提出來針對那個空污法第27 28條跟這30條的一個修正草案其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
3614.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
3636.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
產業界非常擔憂這個修法如果一旦通過以後其實會對整個經濟或者產業的發展會帶來很大的一個衝擊那因為我們工業總會有代表160個團體的一個工會那轄下的會員廠商大概有10萬家左右所以也因應這樣子的一個修法的一個提出來之後我們工業總會也針對我們的團體會員有做了一些調查跟意見的收集 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
3640.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
3667.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那以下我大概就是針對今天整個那個公聽會有三個討論提供裡面其中是針對燃煤管制的中央跟地方分權如何去兼顧中央地方的這樣一個原則我大概表達幾點的看法那提供就是那個各界還有立法委員將來在修法討論的時候去做參考第一個就是如果我們按現在草案的規定就是地方政府可以要求業者改善他的空氣污染的 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
3668.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
3683.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
物的一個總量跟濃度業者應該配合就這個事情來講其實本來看起來無可厚非就是你地方政府要求我業者他就來配合可是這裡面有兩個很重要的因素就是說如果沒有一個明確的一個改善的一個條件或標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
3685.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
3703.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那再加上我們有台灣雖然地不大可是22個縣市裡面如果不同的縣市之間的管制標準不一樣的情況之下其實企業會面臨高度不確定的這樣子的營運風險我想這是第一個部分那第二個就是針對地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
3703.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
3719.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
可以得公告禁止使用燃料用量以及那個有更嚴格的一個許可標準就這件事情來講其實也是同樣的意思就是說地方政府得公告禁止那到底是什麼樣的條件跟標準可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
3720.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
3745.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
禁止其實在我們法規條文裡面其實都沒有去續名那如果是這樣子的話就會導致全國各地的這些公民營電廠那包括各個行業的工廠或鍋爐等等可能會因為招禁而無法去做營運所以我們是非常的一個就是說建議就是說如果貿然禁止或限制燃料使用的話我想對全國能源跟產業的正常營運也會帶來很大的一個衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
3748.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
3765.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那第三點就是草案裡面有增列一個就是認定有削減跟加嚴操作的必要者就可以在展演的時候變更許可內容那這裡面也又是同樣的問題就是說認定有削減加嚴的這個必要這條件到底是什麼其實我們法規 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
3766.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
3790.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
也沒有載明等於是一個空白授權那這個時候就是如果業者必須無條件配合的話沒有配合其實就會失去這個許可證那企業的營運就會面臨到一樣是很大的一個傷害那第四點就是就是如果允許地方政府在展顏審查的時候得以有健康風險之餘就可以去變更原來許可內容的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
3791.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
3815.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
那這個所謂的有健康之餘的影響這個之餘的之餘其實也是一個沒有客觀標準他很主觀的去做認定所以可能也會產生一些不確定的疑慮所以綜合這一到四點裡面其實都有兩個很重要的問題就是說缺乏明確且一致的這樣一個標準那產業無所適從第二個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
3816.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
3837.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
就是如果各縣市競相效尤的話其實會造成一國多製的這樣一個亂象企業無所適從那因為我們知道企業要永續經營其實最擔心最害怕的就是不確定性所以一旦產生企業無所遵循的時候事實上就會影響投資意願跟一個穩定經營所以我想在立法的時候不可不慎 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
3838.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
3857.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
這是以上四點的部分那第五點尤其我覺得個人覺得也是很重要就是說把展延審查的期間限縮僅得兩個月由產業去承擔地方政府沒有及時完成審查的這個後果我覺得真的是非常非常的不合理因為地方政府如果因審查的因素導致停工的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
3858.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
3877.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
會造成上下游他會斷鏈那尤其我們從實務上來看很多連續運轉的設備他一旦停工了以後事實上他會造成重新來的這種不可逆的一個損失所以以上五點我們是非常建議立法委員助攻在審查的時候能夠真正的那個從實務上跟產業發展經濟發展角度來考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
3880.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
3902.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那至於說我們其實對本次立法委員提出來的這個修正草案這個立法的原意是要強化地方環境的治理其實我們也是肯定的只是這裡面就是說我剛講的就是說從很多就是不確定的那個概念裡面如果在法條的修正能夠讓它更完整或者就是說不要讓企業陷入一些不確定風險的話我想這個對整個投資環境跟經濟發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
3906.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
3926.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
是有正面幫助的所以我們是強烈呼籲就是說維持現行的空污法的現行管理的機制不遺貿然的通過修正草案那最後就是我可能要附帶再提出來就是說因為今天是第一場公聽會那看起來邀請的是除了主管機關之外是專家學者所以如果可以的話應該是擴大溝通層面 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
3928.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
3948.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
然後廣邀更多的相關利益團體利害團體再來多辦多場的公聽會多聽聽那個就是各界的聲音再來作為那個立法院在那個立法院審查一個很重要一個參考依據那以上的意見提供大家參考謝謝陳鴻文副秘書長接下來請賴信治教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
3961.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
3989.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
主席 各位委員還有各位先敬大家午安我想今天來參加這個公聽會前面很多委員都提出了蠻多這個有關法制還有其他部分我想來跟大家報告一下一些空汙上面的研究也就是說我們今天其實很在意的是空汙對健康的影響我們也很在意空汙的濃度到底會對台灣的人民產生什麼樣的一個效應 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
3990.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4009.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
但我們在這十幾二十年的研究裡面其實我們一直希望的是我們在檢污法令的一個方向上能夠對到真正的目標而不是眼睛看到了我們就開始去做所謂檢污的這種策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4010.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4033.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
所以想先跟大家報告一下影響空氣品質大概有五個因素一個就是空氣品質政策一個是天氣一個是地形另外一個是所謂的排放量這是大家最關心的接下來就會連鎖到所謂行政區域的管轄所以這五大因素我們要綜合考量的時候其實缺一不可 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4034.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4058.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
那以一個科學家來講我們過去比較在乎的是排放量到底會有多少的濃度產生那在這裡也要跟大家報告一下其實在經過這個十幾二十年而且我們用了大量的國際上通用的這個研究工具來做研究的時候我們其實真的發現排放量不等於最後的影響度也就是不等於濃度 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4060.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4086.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
這個我覺得是要跟大家先強調一下因為這會鏈結到後面的修法好 所以呢跟大家報告兩個數據一個就是其實現在如果最新版的排放量我們發現交通員的排放已經大於固定員的排放所以在這個過程裡面我們很擔心的是這個數據到底對不對所以我們回去做一些檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4087.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4106.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那怎麼檢查呢?其實呢我們就把排放量拿出來透過這樣空氣品質的模式去模擬說電廠的影響有多少交通的影響有多少那第一個數據是這樣如果我們把車輛全部改成電動車然後電動車所需要的電改成用煤發電 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4108.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
4128.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
這個我們在國際上已經發表一個論文了其實我們發現如果改成電動車它的這個對於空氣污染濃度的一個改善會大於把這些電動車要充電的量全部放成燃煤電廠大概增加改善的效益有3% |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
4130.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
4154.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
這是第一個意思是什麼?當我們一直在思考說電廠的這些排放燃煤的排放對台灣的這個空氣品質濃度的影響到底有多大的時候我們是不是其實也要思考一下在我們的這個管制策略方面在法令的一個鋪陳上面有沒有另外一個方向能夠來增進台灣民眾的健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
4155.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
4176.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那第二個數據是這樣我們把所有的這個電廠的排放拉出來看看他對於現在最新版的這個排放源的一個濃度影響的濃度大概有多少剛剛其實幾個部會都報告過我們可以看到這個濃度的影響大概是最多最多1.5%所以當 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
4180.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
4197.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
我們身為納稅醫護人也身為科學家我們其實很擔心的是我們要付出的這些努力有沒有對到真正對民眾健康影響有效的方向所以在這邊其實要提出一個建議也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
4199.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
4226.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
在我們考量那五個重要的影響空氣品質的因素裡面排放量的管控當然我們需要處理但是建議應該要對到真正的方向去第二個我們要用法規來限制如果回到地方的這個限制上面地方就能夠規範我們的伯爵錢放在地方的話那跨區的效應怎麼去處理台灣的地形非常特殊我剛剛也跟各位報告過 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
4228.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
4246.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
五個重要的關鍵之一有一個是地形台灣的天氣搭上地形之後事實上有某些地區我們受到尤其是交通源的影響會遠大於固定源的影響在這個跨區的過程裡面假設我的上游區我不減量 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
4247.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
4275.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我下游區是不是就沒辦法動了我的健康是不是就沒辦法得到改善我覺得在看了這個草案之後其實還蠻建議還沒有釐清所有所有的這些細節之前建議最好不要這麼快的就去把這些法令做一些調動因為過去我們也可以看到這從2013年一直到現在我們其實可以看到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
4277.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
4290.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
這個空氣溫的濃度是一直在改善的所以如果可行的話應該經過更縝密的一個檢查才能夠來動這些法條以上是我的報告 謝謝謝謝賴信治教授接下來請葉光鵬醫師 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
4305.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
4311.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
沒關係,我先開講。感謝主席,感謝王委員,感謝劉建國。2011年5月5日,台灣健康空氣衍農地母親節前夕,我的民進黨立委跟我協助會,到今天已經五年了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
4324.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
4353.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
根據恐怖法修法,我要感謝全台灣的人民共同努力,在2011年開始,算這條路,如果沒有全台灣人民,我們台灣空氣不可能這樣。所以我直接用感恩的心情,直接看到吳亦林老師,剛才跟他說頂回省大聚焦年會,我去開會,一直都不知道你,但是白老師就給我有機會,去講SIP跟FIP, |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
4355.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
4384.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那時候我印象我還不太會聽,我說我那時候是郵遞行三年,郵輸辦的三歲而已,那時候後悔說,但是我印象中就是說,SIP,就是你沒辦法履行完成implementation plan的時候,就中央政府要接起來,理論上應該地方政府要再管,我那時候2011年,我現在想法也可能好像是一樣的,當然我現在是高中而已,我在老師面前我是孩子而已, |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
4385.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
4404.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
今天很高興看到莊平傑老師,15年來,那PM2.0的健康,如果沒有你,不可能那本,也不可能國光時報有機會觀看,PM2.0也不可能,所以我幾十年沒看到莊老師,很高興看到莊老師是我的偶像,今天也是我的偶像,所以今天我會用你整個Power Point, |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
4405.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
4426.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
很高興看到王振旭移植點維本社交媒體親自再來,令人感動,點維說子宮內膜癌跟NO2也有關所以我是台灣婦產科醫療學院,2019年就有一個婦女與環境健康可能全台灣醫療學院裡面,有一個環境跟健康可能還可以互相可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
4428.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
4452.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
環境跟健康,就世界衛生組織講得很乾淨是環境是很重要的,基因可能不一定重要我看就是這樣一看啦,我們的基因會被表觀遺傳被改變所以抱歉,這包分就出來了,我在這感謝盧委員,雖然根據我們的立委出國提案人羅天偉,我也要感謝他他年輕時為總會絕食 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
4457.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
4475.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
這十幾年來,台灣健康空域希望關心空汙,關心交通,所以我們認為說一家子宮內馬來,那是一個民進黨的市議員走勢,很辛苦的,那跟NO2有關,NO2跟燃煤也可能有關,但是最重要的是交通,台北市最重要的交通。 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
4476.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
4495.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
但是國民黨的時代到這時,都說交通很重要,但是交通經濟差有沒有增加?到今天我不知道,我還沒有看到,至少我們的頂頭裡面沒有看到,你的沒有增加。30年,號稱交通很重要,沒有看到交通經濟差進入法規。 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
4495.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
4519.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
我們台灣的標準,空瓶表面標準,沒有把交通納入我們的法規裡面,管控的東西所以在這裡我要感謝劉建國15年來,他很為難的,但是他都幫忙陳昭智立委,他的提案,也感謝,王一鳴立委剛才有去支持當然今天邱惠如立委,他在衛反會,他今天也出國,但是我剛才 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
4520.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
4529.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
一張看到他在立法院,我們補定公平的位置,我有點難過好,抱歉,現在可以開始下一張嗎?我自己去嗎?抱歉,請大家包容我花時間比較久15年來,這條路這麼長我剛才看到謝彥如副部長很高興當年聽說是八八節 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
4547.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
4559.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
因為國防司法,它是科長專綱跑去講法,姿態很假所以國民黨時代的控保署,是很低姿態,主動喔,主動所以民進黨當然很厲害啦,台灣沒有民進黨,沒有經營但是民進黨如果我看,我年輕的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
4572.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
4586.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
民進黨出事後,我就在跟民進黨作算了,抱歉這張,2018年918,這張頭這個人就吳國昌所以我今天,我是代表民進黨,我也公認代表民進黨所以這民進黨有點困難,雖然我跟建國15年了雖然2011年5月6日,母親節前夕,那陣子我的都是民進黨立委,都是民進黨,吳淑英 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
4601.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
4612.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
田秋晴,還有中華的王金珠,跟吳承哲,那時候我都罵的,那時候都站在我旁邊,抱歉我講太久,請包容一下,好不好,抱歉。感謝黃國昌立委,那時候他就去台灣, |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
4618.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
4637.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
這件事有台化條款,就因為台化之後,他說不行了,這又下去之後,因為引領地方自治條例,整個困難然後台化也這樣,台中也被逼之後,地方自治條例出來但是我要感謝林佳龍,當年如果沒有檢視層,給中央就不會檢視層 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
4638.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
4656.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
就不會 抱歉所以我要勸頂林佳龍當然不是林佳龍 那是全台灣共同關心台灣那天 遊行之後關起來也不是台灣 也不是中華人是台灣人 很多人 台北人都在那邊支持我感謝五十年前 五十年在台灣 在市中心荼毒中華人那是我起床和閉床的事情所以我感謝吳國昌所以 抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
4669.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
4671.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
這是向後的所以在這裡抱歉你要花很多時間 抱歉因為民進黨就是說萬年國會當年就是說 喔 國台都要選舉 國會都要開選但是我們這個平台 哇 會這樣你如果不這樣 就會再燒 會再燒 會再燒這不是跟當年的萬年國會一樣不是 我們反對的民進黨不是這樣所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
4697.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
4709.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這是以前我去成員莊老師 莊老師 當年我頭髮也是黑的那時候我們不敢 我的老師紅膏所以你看很多 江聖醫師也站出來我的老師瘟疫受難柯文哲醫師也吹他 柯文哲醫師也說 哇 怎麼樣怎麼樣所以莊老師 剛才經濟不講 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
4723.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
4738.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
經濟部國民黨講的跟民進黨都一樣很多老師都用PDF講濃度就像一個人賴清德也是一個人賴清德跟別人一樣嗎川普也是一個人他跟一樣嗎王正旭也是一個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
4739.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
4753.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
跟別人一樣嗎?王正旭想我必須要繼續老的所以我們兩個同樣的一個人,別人是醫生,人是教授,必須要老,我是孫子啊所以同樣的煤是不一樣的,有乾淨的煤,也有啞鈴車的煤所以鍾老師說,這燃煤電廠中心是非常毒的,這鍾老師說的不是我說的喔,好嗎?2019年,以前深澳燃煤電廠乾淨的煤 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
4765.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
4784.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
你錯了啊燃煤電腦是連乾淨的煤都錯了啊這莊老師說莊老師是說深澳的重金屬啊這裏的重金屬啊這裏的2024年依依依然為什麼PM都那麼低為什麼人的空氣好但世界很毒啊所以不是看濃度啊剛才在說的我相信我們環境部不是看濃度吧看結構吧剛才 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
4795.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
4820.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
不像以前,孔寶出生,已經全港為中華,為台北總結,沒工嘛同樣是,沒工啊,未來我看,我早去找他,人家也都很客氣啊國民黨的時代,我都很客氣,民進黨認為他可能很進步、很民主、很厲害的一款,我不知道啦,不好意思這2016年,鍾老師說,用法規可以督促工廠改善,這一說的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
4821.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
4841.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
所以燃煤入伏可以做健康啊,莊老師是不是?所以今天莊老師去訴綜活動,我也不敢啦,直接感謝仙汝,我感謝你。2011年,台灣PR2.0一直在管控,什麼大家都不知道,感謝吳亦林一直在幫忙,我們這促成手動消磨,不然我怎麼看不見? |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
4842.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
4850.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
我們在世界衛生組織2005年P2.2是多少?是10我們頂15是全世界很厲害的我們是超過50%而已我們是超過5個立法會我們頂了15個 日本跟美國一樣美國2012年改12我們15也差不多但我們AQI我們在未來用AQI我們就15掩飾綠色我現在也很不滿為什麼美國是12綠色我們現在改成12 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
4867.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
4893.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我們跟世界衛生組織5比起來是差7捏是差512是2.4倍捏我們是落後的捏所以時代你只要說5是不好當年謝燕竹做空保科長他在那裡主持平安2.5的公聽會他以前說平安2.5實施終極目標我媽最害羞不好意思不敢多開刀 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
4897.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
4922.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
謝彥柱說我沒有終極目標謝彥柱跟我們的科長罵笑說對!好!該!這就是當年的孩子的謝彥柱以前的科長馬上喔他沒有遲疑這就是以前的國民黨的時代的謝彥柱但我不知道民進黨的謝彥柱當然是現在你要看上面我的偶像喔我的偶像現在做保齡嘛好!這是我的偶像我跟他認識 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
4923.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
4942.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
一段時間,他當年要辦集會的時候,他也出了六千塊來,當然六千塊可能比他還小一點那來看這張,我們認為最近定例白是七百八,七千八百萬預算,通過但是我認為,如果我們人民兩千三百萬,身體如果破壁,可能就很困難了 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
4946.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
4956.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
所以大家看到右邊的地圖是歐盟最近公佈的他們的帝都大家看東歐比較紅紅所以最近馬鈴薯這麼紅所以發覺可能不能吃但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
4962.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
4982.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
燃煤裡面的燃煤排泥可以輸嗎?燃煤排泥是一級致癌物啊黃醫師,是不是一級致癌物?我們食品裡面有管控我們的空氣沒有管控,所以我們裡面說燃煤排泥不是給你致癌,不是給你肺癌,不是給你大腸癌不是給你睪丸癌,不是給你肝癌,不是它還會讓你免疫,會造成勞力危險,會給你 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
4986.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5003.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
腦力學習所以我們的孩子我們的年輕人在韓軍官校在江山空軍基地在左營在陸戰隊都在那裡那空氣都複合式的汙染有燃煤有柴油有什麼偏煙淋在衣身上都汙染讓我們洗不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5004.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5033.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
所以這才是健康的煤台北經濟部說健康的煤我沒有意見但是如果環境部說健康的煤我就覺得可能要注意所以在這裡我只要說最近中央大會說台灣國立公司如果台灣國立公司真的脆弱一定要再燒星達的燃煤一定要再燒我們賣料的煤表示台灣國立脆弱表示台灣要再抓葉光鵬去做後備軍人非常可惜了所以在這裡要拜託 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5035.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5055.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
抱歉這裡面有你說這裡面我們比較好的就是有健康教育委員會所以我在這裡裡面有要拜託大家我們不用排練是不是要管控這裡面很毒的也不是這樣而已HAPS我們的莊老師有你說HAPS也是很重要的原因我們的PAO在 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5056.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5081.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
你先如一尊,哪能變成十五?我們現在離五更遠是不是要加強公平?所以在裡面彭啟明的電話裡說你可能沒有經驗一個堂堂的部長對我們的委員委員是明顯出來,你這樣跟他說你可能沒有行政經驗,這種人是非常可惜的所以在這裡要說彭啟明,你是環境部長你忘了你的職責,這是這是我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5085.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5112.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
朱祖堅下來,所以古年五月我就在說台灣有沒有環境部?有,環境部很多大家都盡忠職守但是部長可能沒有環境部長這就是朱祖堅最近下來,忘了我是環境部長地方政府是有責無權,中央政府是有權無責,抱歉所以在這裡我要說,民進黨2018年把他收回來之後,他有沒有主動採買? |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5114.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5128.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
我沒有看到,沒有主動探明,我們的內閣現在是Active,Innovative,Active是什麼?主動,不是被動,不是Passive,是主動要創新,結果我還在講那些東西,舊的東西,還在講那些東西,這2021年,這次,這次我們看小英說的,小英說600萬噸, |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5136.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5148.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
它是歷史上最大的,但是從2019年,中火就沒有再減了,就沒有再減了,為什麼?我們看那一陣子,曾孫暉很厲害,全面翻修空污法,他說2021年,那陣子要管控72項,結果被減成22項, |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5155.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
5167.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
所以民進黨那時候說的用記者會的成方式是後面的人把他冰倒只打三折國防不能打折但是HAPS你可以打三折然後施成延運來不斷非常誇張這裝備也不用排練這裏面我們上面說的修映2016、18這八年協定出來能源產業要持續產業轉型要加速 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
5177.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
5187.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
有沒有加速呢?責任傳承要公正,中火那邊還在燒,星達老建國還在燒所以感謝台灣人宣出總統是一個健康的 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
5188.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
5208.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
台灣的總統,但是不健康的台中,哪有健康的台灣?如果不健康的分林,哪有健康的台灣?如果不健康的台南,哪有健康的台灣?不遺漏任何人,不遺漏屏東,不遺漏我們的飛翔所以在這裡感謝蕭英當年選公衛做環境部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
5209.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
5219.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
用健康做核心,也感謝大聖節今年終於把環境部跟甲座位,兩個甲座位以健康做核心但是,這是當年2015年我辦遊行的時候,理事長說你中央比較保守 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
5223.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
5250.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
現在是不是2026年的民進黨中央是比較保守呢?但是我們的總統,他說不要,要相處我們現在要用低碳,所以燃煤是高碳,沒有能源韌性所以拜託中央放手,莊秉傑老師這是你去年,你說的,空汙來源,你有去搞結果環境部甘有助,甘有助所以莊秉傑老師,你在4月30日苦活的火星環境部對HEP的管制沒有做也是該虛心檢討啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
5252.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
5273.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
民進黨執政已經10年了,HAPS只管控22項,然後延後今年4月,我們死亡人數1萬6千個,我們生不出來所以民進黨執政10年,罪毒燃煤,民眾派你不管控,這是民眾派你會造成跌的,一直在確定的,世界危險零點一二,這是已經說很久了,我們剛才說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
5276.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
5290.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
公益中沒有要排行,台灣沒有標準台灣為所欲為,你要排什麼就怎麼排,沒有,沒有人知道台灣人比較用,歐盟你看,都做外帝島人家看歐盟2014、16,都帝島,它的標準裡面綠色的就是比較紅色的就不好,都是東歐台灣現在跟東歐一樣,你看法國 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
5298.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
5326.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
西班牙,他們那些都藍色,都大標,小於世界衛生紙世界衛生紙以美說沒有安全紙,SAP,VAP啦所以我昨天看到彭齊明他在2014年做一個研究海基會,不是海基會這是兩岸齁,這裡面行政大陸委會研究兩岸的空瓶他做一陣子中華民國環境保護協會秘書長他在那裡做一個研究中國 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
5327.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
5352.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
會加免費派人VAP有一點他也是用VAP喔他中間沒有多少括號這是彭啟明喔 這不是我喔好 中國其實2011年他就管控VAP了但是標準能判說以前0.12012年變成0.01加減10倍所以這是彭啟明的授意喔彭啟明2012年修正他也知道2014年知道中國要2012年開始管控要加減10倍採用歐盟的標準建構他兩年做 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
5354.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
5371.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
保證沒有管控,他是你害惱性中傷,難道台灣的Vendor Party你沒有讀嗎?你就證明給我看,那我就尊敬所以梁安空在裡面,這是年輕的彭啟明,2013年12月彭啟明這是2013年12月彭啟明,他是秘書長,簽名在這裡所以我想應該是他寫的,所以他知道,為什麼不講管控 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
5377.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
5401.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
所以臺灣不能輸中國臺灣什麼國可能都可以輸就是不能輸中國站在立場裡臺灣要輸中國不行啦所以要講好不好在這裡拜託為什麼今天跟燃煤有關因為緬州排冷是600度C以下最慢超超臨界可能580度亞臨界超臨界都是580度到565度那裡暗時也在放毒也在放來台南建國低效益產生很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
5406.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
5417.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
所以是什麼?會讓我們生命出來,搞完,搞完來,你來看,當年清的,清的延宅的,都是搞完來,顧腦力,讓我們的記憶力不好,讓我們的記憶力不好,讓我們學習,讓我們平常要學的武器也有困難,會證明你,腦力不是受損,強國力,民進黨愛鄉土,當年, |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
5426.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
5442.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
你盡量說這中央比他保守 盡量說民進黨不是進步 是保守不是主動 是被動 不是創新 是保守所以拜託 貝里 你沒有證明你能夠主動解媒你已經 人民給你機會 就像 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
5443.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
5468.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
羅總統你說的,那過去已經過去了,不是說合,要達成,所以新的開始嘛所以在這裡要拜託,就像民進黨當年的萬年國會民進黨台灣的歷史,台灣今天做主人就是萬年國會但是我們今天有萬年的星達,有萬年的東西,我們的環境部長當年知道中國在管控民主派利,為什麼台灣的民主派利不用管控咯 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
5470.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
5478.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我們的馬鈴薯有毒我們可以選擇不吃沒要吃 沒要吃就不要吃但是你空氣 氣勢這樣子為中國 也會收到台北人因為會擴散所以在這裡要拜託泰美是最好的國防泰美是最優先的國防它比馬鈴薯更毒在這裡感謝不分草野 不分蝦這是感謝蔡議長時間的關係差不多最後 最後我們要拜託這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
5499.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
5508.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
游詩坤要離開的時候,她說讓台灣變成一個國會至上的正常國家她說美國憲法是國會議員得到,所以她在國會至上,在這要困窮王振旭委,公務修法,來擺綠河今天地方政府起來也要選舉,她也不可能刁難政治,也不可能去刁難什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
5527.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
5532.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
經濟殭屍如果要殭屍是天然氣啦所以非常可惜用8000家我不知道發生什麼幽靈我想經濟部講那個話 環節部要回應經濟PA2是不一樣的經濟PA2對我們那12更小的我們AQS綠色是騙人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
5545.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
5563.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
美國十二年,綠色就十二了,我們現在還在綠色,還是十二,還在騙人所以拜託大家,咱支持莊秉傑,支持台灣不分難力,共同努力,我們發起不達目的,絕不終止不達目的,絕不終止,台灣的Battle Party一定要管控,請彭啟明 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
5567.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
5578.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
你2014年就已經知道了,中國已經在全面管控用open方式,為什麼台灣mantel派你沒有讀嗎?比馬鈴薯還沒有讀,請亂代總統出來回應感謝主席,請大家原諒,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
5593.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
5612.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
主席 各位委員 各位先進 大家好首先感謝讓我來跟大家報告一下我做空氣汙染的研究三十幾年來的結果尤其是對PM2.5應該大概從我民國八十一年回台灣甚至更早之前我就一直在研究PM2.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
5614.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
5637.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
我習慣上來把整個第一個我們大概談的今天大家談到說到底PM2.5濃度需不需要再降低那因為就像前面先進提的我們過去幾年的PM濃度確實是有逐年的下降可是夠不夠我想這個第一個東西就是說在PM2.5從那個全世界的 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
5639.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
5654.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
公認裡面的就是PM2.5對健康的影響其實是沒有預知也就是說它基本上一直到零因為這個從北歐的公共貴賓的研究裡面就看得來因為我去北歐訪問我看這個大概十幾年前的事他們的溶度撤出來大概很少超過1 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
5656.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
5675.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
可是他們在公共衛生學的研究裡面它還是對人體有影響這個就是當初支持聯合國就是PM2.5對健康的影響基本上是沒有預指的跟很多其他污染物不一樣的地方所以站在這個立場裡面其實我也是呼籲其實平衡濃度的趨勢還要繼續下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
5677.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
5705.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
可是台灣有一個比較特殊的現象這個現象其實應該是說我大概差不多十幾年前提出來就台灣的PM2.5有將近有大概三成到四成其實不是台灣自己來產生的當初被罵得要死啦就像我當初十幾年前害了我們那個林彥柳署長嚇跳一樣說要管那個大貨車那個都是我最早提出來的可是現在可能大家慢慢的接受這樣的概念就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
5707.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
5716.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
整個供應汙染的管制裡面如果從歷史的軌跡上來看的話大概我們可以把它分成幾個時期就是從1970年代大家談了看誰的排放量大小然後到1990年代我們看看誰的影響比較大 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
5722.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
5745.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
排量大的不見得影響就大 這個剛剛賴教授有講過這些影響的因素的變化那到最後我們會把到90年代我們把它變成成本效益尤其是以健康為基準的成本效益大概在這20世紀末的時候可是到21世紀初期的時候就開始建立一個叫做多污染跟多媒介的綜合管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
5746.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
5774.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
其實這每一段都有科學上面的工具的發展然後它一直一直進展從最早的排放量的管理不過呢我覺得台灣在這個管理上面的步驟上面稍微慢了一點我們知道現在很多時候還在談用排放量的管理也就是說我們在談管制措施我記得剛剛葉醫師提到的2011年在成大辦那一次空污研討會那我記得那時候那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
5776.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
5799.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
謝處長剛剛上任處長那我到那時候就跟大家講說應該要從排放量的管理進到貢獻量的管理那這個是我覺得第一個為什麼我講這樣呢我提一個很簡單的例子這個也是我們幾年來學到的我們從80幾年開始在測我們台灣的PM2.5裡面的成分組成的時候我們發現硫酸根是它最大的組成大概佔了30到40% |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
5802.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
5827.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
可是因為個人研究室的人工測的大概都有限我當初做了最多是從台南測到屏東測了九個站同時去測可是這些站看出來的結果還是流產量最多一直到2013年我們環境部成立了剛剛葉老師葉醫師提到的三十個測站全部都是同一天採樣那我們就把那些數據拿來看就發現一個很有趣的故事 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
5828.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
5853.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
硫酸根還是最主要的成分可是硫酸根的占比是北邊最多一直從30%降到高雄剩下25%然後你把這個同場的東西看一看發現北風吹的時候台灣自己硫酸根增加的大概只有6.5個micron可是硝酸根的增加大概將近8個micron也就是說我們自己對硝酸根的影響比硫酸根要大 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
5854.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
5881.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那這個從這個管制裡面就造成了就是說為什麼貢獻量的影響其實是一個很炸的概念在這個裡面那應該一樣我們在大概15年前我們在AE發表了一部一篇paper那這篇paper我當初是去幫忙做中部的代耗性的研究當然跟今天的主題不大一樣可是呢那時候我們做出來的結論呢那時候這個代耗性最大的排放源是總共大概占台中市的三分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
5882.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
5910.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
可是我們做出來的大躍興主要供電是中部地區的第一個排放源影響最大排放源是非鐵金屬的二次元鏈因為那邊其實我們知道中部地區有很多我們的水晶工業所以說那個其實影響很大所以我想要提到就是說這個概念裡面應該要提到就是管制策略上面的進步就是說應該想要至少能夠做到以台灣來講目前進行到 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
5910.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
5933.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
以供鮮量為主的這種管制措施應該是這個技術是綽綽有餘啦但是要增到勤本效益因為我們的健康的基準跟防治設備的成本資料其實還蠻缺的啦我覺得這個是在管制上面能夠去補充那這樣才能夠帶我們往下一步去做甚至進步到所謂多媒介的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
5933.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
5962.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
而不是說我今天只看到空氣味來PM2.5那忘了廢水廢氣物就是說這個地方其實是要一起整合的去看這個是時間有限我最後建議一個的所以由這個角度去看的時候其實我提醒大家一個油煤轉到天然氣其實在鋁化合物跟氯磚物裡面會有顯著的下降可是在氮氧化合物其實沒有什麼太大差別可是我們剛剛有講的2.5裡面主要是氮氧化合物要管的 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
5963.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
5986.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
這個就是一個要去前面思考的就是說沒降低是當然一定要降低可是它的配套措施到底夠不夠真的讓我們由美轉成天然氣的時候是不是對我們PO2.5濃度是真的會下降那麼多嗎我的個人研究其實是有一點但是沒有大家想像的那麼多這個提供給大家參考 謝謝謝謝吳亦林教授現在請劉建國委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
5996.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
5998.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
好 那現在休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6033.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6033.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6045.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6047.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6063.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6063.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
臺灣公會 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6084.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6084.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
陳建盛 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6110.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6111.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
謝謝大家。 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6139.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6148.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6151.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6179.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
謝謝謝謝謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6181.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6183.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
冰淇淋都沒吃 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6216.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
6229.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
6235.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
6262.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
我們玻璃工程師很厲害我們玻璃工程師很厲害我們玻璃工程師很厲害玻璃工程師很厲害玻璃工程師很厲害玻璃工程師很厲害玻璃工程師很厲害玻璃工程師很厲害玻璃工程師很厲害玻璃工程師很厲害玻璃工程師很厲害玻璃工程師很厲害 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
6269.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
6269.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
謝謝觀看 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
6285.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
6305.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我單裝幣給你拿我單裝幣給你拿我單裝幣給你拿我單裝幣給你拿我單裝幣給你拿我單裝幣給你拿我單裝幣給你拿 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
6316.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
6316.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我來我來 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
6334.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
6336.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
我能一種出口 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
6365.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
6375.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我能演唱的都對 音樂也對 文憲風電 但是聲音還會變成文憲 氣跳也會變成文憲 急診也會變成文憲 甜美 甜美也可以解鎖急診 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
6385.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
6388.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
重啟人的交代啊可以多拍一拍 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
6406.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
6407.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
你自己口誌 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
6433.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
6458.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
我老婆老婆 我知道她是千名小老她就是完全學會的藝術阿姨百分之九十九點九 我不跟百分之九十九 從來不會講到一半我做男生我做女生我做男生我做男生我做男生我做男生我做男生我做男生我做男生我做男生我做男生我做男生我做男生我做男生我做男生我做男生我做男生我做男生我做男生 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
6459.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
6463.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
这边算,这边算,这边算,这边算,这边算, |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
6480.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
6491.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
有見證人本座嗎?沒有人回應嗎?人家又被拘捕了嗎?我準備給他打電話我準備給他打電話你準備給他幹嘛? |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
6516.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
6527.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
應該這五點半可以結束了他們這個還好,都算是接手時間這時候就我來然後我們就好好的因為祥文 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
6551.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
6555.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
11位12位12位12位12位12位12位12位12位12位12位12位12位12位12位 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
6572.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
6601.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
繼續開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
6602.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
6604.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
現在請岳祥文執行長 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
6622.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
6641.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
現場的朋友大家好,我是台中市政豪暨聯盟的執行長葉祥文。我的本職工作是一個特教老師,我的學生都是重重度跟集中度智能障礙。我在台中特教已經任教了二十幾年,我看我的學生上課很多過敏的小孩,非常辛苦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
6642.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
6671.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
常常一直流鼻水沒辦法好好專心上課眼睛紅皮膚癢一直抓抓到都流血那我們長期在中南部很多的孩子就是遇到這樣的問題非常非常的辛苦那今天我們知道有這樣的公聽會那我們在中部地區也長期在關注這個空污的議題知道有這樣的修法其實我們非常的關注所以今天特地從台中請假半天趕快過來跟大家分享一下我們的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
6671.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
6698.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那剛剛提到這個授權地方這件事情到底會不會造成一些混亂我覺得我們不要空口說白話也不要製造恐懼我們來看一下國際的案例國際上到底有沒有這樣的例子有啊 比比皆是日本 美國 德國 北歐都有啊而且在什麼時候開始有這樣的地方授權讓地方政府有權力把標準定到比中央政府的標準還高 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
6699.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
6723.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
針對污染的部分,什麼時候開始的?60年前60年前就已經有了耶日本1964年就開始了美國德國1970年代也就開始了我們台灣落後國際一甲子啊到現在政府還在說授權地方政府是空白授權啊這會造成混亂啊,廠商會擔心啊那我想問的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
6724.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
6747.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那奇怪了其他這些先進國家好像經濟也沒有比我們差嘛人家好像也沒有怎麼擔心嘛那為什麼其他國家可以做台灣做不到成功的人為成功找方法失敗的人只會為失敗找藉口好不好這是一個部分國際的標準其實都已經有那日本呢1964年德國1974年那 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
6752.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
6776.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
中火無煤這件事情我們來看中火無煤這些事情到底能不能入法我在想2017年非核家園可以入法那2028中火無煤有什麼理由不能入法你說入這個法不行那沒關係我們入別的法電線法可不可以環境基本法可不可以那空污法為什麼不行空污法當然也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
6778.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
6801.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
他的第一條就寫嘛為了保護大家的健康嘛環境的品質嘛所以空污法為什麼不行當然可以啊符合他的目的而且燃煤電廠是空污來源很大的來源啊剛剛那個葉醫師在講我們一直知道說PM2.5很多地方都會有PM2.5但是那個土性不一樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
6803.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
6831.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
這大家都知道嘛毒性不一樣毒性的濃度不一樣威脅不一樣啊那燃煤電廠是PM2.5裡面毒性最強的嘛那最汙染的嘛尤其是我們台中那個電廠那麼老舊那剛剛經濟部的資料我看到我還是非常的生氣經濟部到現在還在講說什麼2028中火烏梅會造成缺電還在用那個裝置容量在談這件事不要在那邊騙不懂的人不要拿裝置容量來談 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
6832.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
6860.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我們就談發電量我們就談發電量我們幾次的記者會就已經幫你們算好了燃氣電廠中火燃氣電廠上線之後我們現在這幾天都在關注那個有一台燃氣電廠上線之後現在幾乎每天都是運轉然後百分之九十幾%以上雖然他現在在試車還沒有正式上線但到年底兩台機組會上線兩台機組上線之後我們早就已經算過了那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
6861.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
6877.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
把中火剩下的燃煤機組關掉都還有剩欸燃氣機組可以完全汰換欸完全替代燃煤機組欸所以我不懂經濟部為什麼到現在還在拿這些資料在欺騙國人以為大家都不會算數學齁這個非常的可惡啊 非常非常的可惡齁所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
6879.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
6893.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
我們今天看到這樣子的修法我們其實非常的期待也希望不同黨派的立委能夠來支持這樣的提案譬如說我們中部地區要選縣市長的江啟臣譬如說何新淳 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
6895.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
6920.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
這你應該要站出來我們台中人都在看嘛看立委有沒有人在支持這個法案誰在支持誰在擋這個我們一定會認真來關心那另外一個部分地方政府到底能不能剛剛有一些法律的學者說如果是在這個地方授權這個好像有違背一些法令的一些規則啦那我現在想的是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
6920.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
6938.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
如果有違背那其他法令能不能稍微修一下地方自治法如果目標是對的方向是對的大家都覺得這件事情是重要的大家都覺得解決空污維護人民的健康是重要的那能不能來看一看什麼地方可以調整這件事情不是做不到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
6940.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
6965.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
剛剛有人講說我們環境部有在做啦經濟部也有目標啦問題是什麼問題是我們等不及啊問題是我們中南部的人在付出生命 付出健康 付出金錢啊我們還要等多久如果照你們經濟部的規範的規定中火要到2034年才會除疫耶我們中部地區還要死多少人我們還要花多少的錢為什麼是我們中南部的人來面對這樣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
6968.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
6980.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
用電大家都在用 但是死人是中南部的人在死加州 美國加州 他們曾經因為加州有特殊狀況所以他們允許他們能夠訂定地方的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
6982.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
6999.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
加州也遇過這樣的問題那中南部地區地形非常的特殊環境非常的特殊所以它會有一些譬如說被封渦旋會造成污染那有這樣子的條件為什麼我們在台中地區我們不能訂定自己的標準要求加研規範那些污染 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7000.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7022.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
我希望今天在座的不管是中央部會也好或是立法委員也好民意代表也好希望大家能夠一起來正視這個問題幫中南部的人幫中南部的人幫這些老的小的然後沒有權沒有勢的人今天我們很多南投來的鄉親坐了兩個多小時的車來到現在他們現在在另外的地方聽為什麼因為他們很關心這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7023.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7041.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
希望這些在台北呼吸著乾淨空氣的人能夠幫我們中南部的人幫我們爭取一下讓地方有權利來做這件事情跟國際接軌謝謝好 謝謝岳祥文執行長接下來請陳憲政理事 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7050.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7072.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
主席 各位先生大家好我是臺灣滿眼新竹商業協會的常務理事陳憲正我本身也是律師那我首先來先講一件事情就是大概在20應該2016年嘛那個時候有一個生媒就是在雲林的時候那個時候的李靖勇他其實就有發表過一篇說明他的講法是這樣他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7073.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7101.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
環境保護事項是屬於地方自治事項當然這個是按照地方自治法第89條相關的規定中央政府專屬立法事項為憲法107條所明定但憲法107條沒有規定環保事項乃至於它也沒有規定更具體的空污防治事項因此就環境保護事項中央政府應該沒有專屬排他的一個立法權限 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7102.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7128.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
所以環境保護事項按照目前地方自治法確實是屬於地方自治的事項這個完全沒有任何的意義那我剛剛其實聽完之後我覺得蠻遺憾的就是說我們不管是環境部也好經濟部也好他們的說帖裡面正如同李靖勇當年講的一句話他說中央政府你都站在財團的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7130.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7145.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
沒有正視地方民眾的健康他深表痛心結果我們今天呢換了一個執政的顏色我覺得這件事情應該也是沒有改變的那其實這件事情我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7146.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7175.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
他在地方自治法跟中央兩個的權限上他其實本來就有一定的一個衝突存在能源經濟我們大家都可以理解他是屬於這個中央的一個重要的一個政策或是立法的一個事項可是如果今天能源碰到污染碰到這些空污水污染我們居然選擇都是退讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7177.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7184.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
是以經濟優先的 把我們孩子洗不掉就對了不好意思喔 這講的比較不好聽所以其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7185.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7209.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
我們考量的都是企業要怎麼活下去我們沒有考量這個受到汙染周邊的人要怎麼活下去這件事情沒有人在考量所以反正倒楣不是我嘛我有錢賺就好我聽到剛剛的邏輯就是這樣那我們不否認經濟它很重要可是你在考量經濟的同時你並沒有去做更多的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7211.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7234.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
一個政策就像剛剛講到的交通的政策也好對啊我們當然知道移動污染源它的排放量已經超過了這個固定污染源等等這個都有數據這都是科學但問題是我們政府做好管制了嘛我看不出來對啊然後在現在回過頭跟我說那邊污染比較嚴重你要管制那邊啊不是管制這邊啊這個邏輯不是很奇怪嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7236.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7257.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那我們來看一下那個全國電力供需報告書齁其實這個我每年看每兩年看我都覺得非常的驚訝今年最新版的我們說賣電他是在我看一下二號集是113年然後呢三號集是114年新達的三號集是114年 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7259.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7277.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
4號集是115年然後台中的12號集是115年台中的3號、4號集是120年這些資料你相信嗎?我一開始的時候大概10年前我剛開始從事環境運動的時候我也來看然後後來我就發現這些都是反指標為什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7279.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7292.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
因為假退役蒸發電啊民眾看到的就是這樣子啊興達電廠今年4月23號到25號測試60個小時當時的環評是說他全年的限制是720小時備轉容量要低於8%才可以去做運轉台電給了回答說當時是測試那請問這60小時要不要算到720小時裡面我看到數據他沒有算進來邁亞電廠113年5月30號依照契約要停役 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7309.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7337.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
台電呢在合約到期的前一個理由他說因為他的發電容量沒有達到契約的這個約定所以呢他認為這個部分要延續到去年的12月31號這部分我們協會有提出監察院的糾正這個也成立了他認為台電第一個沒有溝通而且呢就罔顧了區域民眾的這個健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7338.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
7353.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
然後對於空污的疑慮也沒有回應然後他還針對經濟部去糾正說他沒有盡監督之責在換月上面過度倉促他甚至違反了環評承諾再來今年好不容易拖到去年114年12月30號過了今年115年因為中東戰火 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
7358.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
7376.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
用電吃緊結果現在賣電繼續耗用我們看到的是什麼我們看到是永無止盡就是這個電是永無止盡煤電是永無止盡的在使用所以為什麼法規要明定退廠機制亞臨界機組台中的3號4號機組120年才要除役對啊那或者邏輯上說賣電賣電他更新超超臨界 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
7386.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
7403.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
今年明年就要除役那為什麼台中要等到120年除役這邏輯上也很奇怪啊所以這個除役的時程表上面根本就沒有一套邏輯啊對所以重點來了會無限延後 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
7404.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
7425.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
這個才是真正的重點所以有關於法規應該要明定這個清楚的包含煤電的亞靈界超超靈界的相關的機組的一個這個時針表我們認為是非常重要的謝謝謝謝陳憲政律師現在請王月明委員答言 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
7435.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
7441.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
謝謝主席更感謝今天有多位長期關心我們空瓶跟環境議題的社團的領導來到我們的公聽會現場在公聽會之前也先去出席了葉理事長所發起的記者會我們可以看到現場有很多來自中南部的鄉親他們希望他的空氣品質是可以更好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
7463.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
7476.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
因為他擔心他的健康他也擔心下一代的健康但是在今天的公聽會我們看了這個環境部看了衛福部看了經濟部所提出來的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
7477.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
7505.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
沒有一個部會在在乎國人的健康沒有特別是像衛福部你應該要提出來就是空氣污染對於身體健康的相關的衝擊評估報告還有就是這個空氣污染現在的衝擊如何對健康的影響完全不敢提知識未提那環境部的報告相當的簡單等於把你的權利就是直接交到經濟部的手上經濟部的報告最多 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
7506.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
7521.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
但是經濟部的報告告訴大家一件事空氣污染防治法不能修法因為會缺電用缺電來作為不能改善這個降低空氣污染的理由有沒有很荒謬 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
7523.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
7536.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
很荒謬我們今天在談的是空氣污染經濟部告訴我們說不可以喔因為會缺點但是大家知道嗎在這個2023年的時候如果大家去翻這個當時王美花經濟部部長他告訴大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
7541.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
7566.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
2023年經濟部說為什麼台灣不缺電哇經濟部的數據很漂亮可惜現在是公聽會不是直訊要不然我一定叫次長上來當時經濟部告訴大家說我們到2030年大家知道嗎我們可以淨增加910萬千瓦因為我們有大型的機組會進來所以台灣不缺電 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
7568.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
7592.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
請問經濟部如果2023年王美花部長拿著一個大棒子告訴大家說為什麼台灣不缺電你們圖表超漂亮的這個大家可以回去找淨增加910萬千瓦結果今天你通篇的報告你告訴大家什麼不可以啊我們燃煤機組都不可以關即使是和平電廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
7594.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
7596.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
它130萬千瓦你都說不可以關那為什麼你2023年的時候告訴大家說我們2030還會進增加那麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
7605.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
7629.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
之前提到核能電廠要不要除役的時候經濟部告訴大家說完全沒有問題啊完全沒有問題我們台灣的電不缺我們的被載容量率非常的高通通沒有問題為什麼今天我們在討論如何改善空氣品質的時候缺電的議題通通寫在你們的報告上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
7630.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
7652.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
很嚴重啊告訴大家說北東電網這個沒有辦法我們現在只有協和跟和平苦撐那既然是這樣子當時的核二廠為什麼不讓他研議你知道核二廠的發電量是多少嗎197萬千瓦那如果你說這麼缺電的話為什麼不關和平電廠然後讓核二廠繼續研議呢你這樣子還有剩啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
7658.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
7680.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
那你的整個能源政策為什麼這麼的荒唐結果你今天我們討論空氣品質的時候又來威脅大家說不可以是因為會缺電所以沒有辦法是沒有辦法還是你的政策失能你的所有的能源政策你當時在考量的時候為什麼不是用一個國際的眼光跟長遠的眼光來看待整體的能源政策這是你經濟部嚴重失職啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
7683.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
7690.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
結果你今天還好意思拿缺電作為藉口來告訴大家說不可以 不可以修法 反對修法有這麼荒唐的事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
7694.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
7722.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
所以這件事情我真的覺得不要再拿缺電這樣子的一個理由來做藉口是你經濟部告訴大家說2030夠春啊910萬千萬你們把你們自己的資料調出來看你們說大潭這個整個燃氣機組上來之後都沒有問題所以你們當時訴求的是非核家園所有的核能都退沒有關係完全不缺電現在要講 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
7723.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
7737.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
減少燃煤你就說缺電可以這樣子嗎那到底哪一件事情才是真的對啊到底哪一件事情才是真的所以這個基於對大家的這個健康的保障我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
7738.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
7763.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
去檢討這些老舊的燃煤機組讓他處理這個是正確的方向更何況國際上面現在減煤才是國際的趨勢減煤才是國際的做法台灣我們要跟上世界潮流我們不可以是這麼的落後所以今天國民黨的羅勤偉委員他所提出來的版本基本上就是想要來解決這樣的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
7764.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
7779.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
而之後這個本行的版本也會進來我認為這次的修法其實有幾個很重要的意義第一個就是從被動轉為主動就是之前我們都說公司場所得申請改善總量 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
7780.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
7797.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
之後應該改為要求他們改善總量就是我們應該是要更主動的去做一些要求第二點授權地方自治條例剛剛前一位先進所提到的當李靖勇李靖勇是民進黨李靖勇他說這個地方有這個權利去捍衛這個地方的這個環境的權益過去林佳龍也擔任過台中市的市長他當時也提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
7808.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
7835.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
這一個生美條例要減少這一個燃眉喔那現在我們看到換黨執政顏色不一樣就不可以這個盧縣市長繼續堅持的時候被中央打回票說你地方不得去增訂那這個環境部講的理由更好笑了就是說這樣子會造成這個執行不一然後甚至上次還有個說法我覺得這個說法希望你們收回去還說地方政治裡面呢會有人藉著這個來挾持這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
7836.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
7839.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
電廠或是做什麼我覺得這樣說法太荒謬地方首長請問有任何人是這樣子做嗎大家都是為了民眾的健康所以希望降低他整個這個燃美的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
7851.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
7868.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
燃煤量所以我認為這個部分也應該要改善另外應該要導入全民的監督未來這一些的降載跟改善計畫應該要上網而且呢應該要辦理公聽會讓專家學者還有在地的居民可以參與共同審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
7869.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
7884.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
就是不是只有單方企業說了算最後應該用科學數據說話不是讓行政單位隨意裁量而是要基於最佳可行控制技術還有連續自動監測的科學數據來調整許可條件讓法規具備科學的公信力我想這個台灣的台灣氣候 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
7894.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
7921.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
績效年年墊底這是一個事實主要就是我們的減煤跟減碳我們的力道都不足那現在真的是到了關鍵時刻我們應該要好好的來做一些調整跟修正了那經濟部不要把自己錯誤的能源政策遇到要減煤的時候就說缺電然後之前配合要說非核家園的時候就說我們電很夠你這樣子是自己前後矛盾 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
7922.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
7941.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
然後一下子就被看穿了所以麻煩這個經濟部去找一下你們之前的報告告訴大家2030我們還有競爭家910萬千瓦的電趕快把它找出來那這樣子你就沒有任何理由跟藉口說減少燃煤機組會缺電 以上 謝謝謝謝王燕鳴委員的發言接下來請魏崇耀醫師 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
7958.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
7981.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
主席好 各位委員好 各位在座的政府代表還有學者大家好我想剛剛各方 政法兩方都有陳述了很多意見我想今天這個主題這個環境 空污法的目標是為了環境跟健康最後還是要回到健康的實證的醫學其實我在海鮮那邊三十幾年從遠眺台中港 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
7986.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8014.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
中火的火力全開之後就完全變得一樣那地區的其實很多不管立委還是民意代表在跑那個跑那個商里啊 跑黑白鐵的那個我聽到很多立委跟我講跑10個跑10個去殯儀館的那700個都是肺腺癌過世的那更可悲的是不抽菸 婦女女生比男生還多 不抽菸那也也沒有其他的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8014.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8016.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
特殊的這個墨影比較那個墨影比較的會陷害這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8019.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8045.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
很可惜這個真的問題非常的嚴重那我周邊大家都過敏那更多的小孩子更過敏其實這個健康還是經濟為了健康我們最目標最基本的最好的投資最基本就是健康的環境健康的空氣你有汙染的水我可以趕快去自己去找可是這個空氣真的無處可逃這是很可悲的等到大家發現說已經來不及了那今天這個這個公務法其實一定要從 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8047.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8051.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
從嚴去界定啦那剛剛我們葉理事長講的其實很重要的一個一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8055.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8076.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
本病比這個Lenzor & Perrin這個非常的嚴重其實它是重中之重這是一起致癌物PMS有降下來台灣市市井的努力大家有降下來但是它是附著在上面的顆粒它經過血液肺泡到血液到全身那大家知道除了對心肺腦感染的影響最重要它是跑到嬰兒媽媽孕婦胎兒裡面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8078.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8107.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
染色體DNA它直接改造它直接造成致癌物它是一代傳一代的喔它屬於基因的毒性致癌物喔不同一般的影響你個人它影響到你下一代現在下一代所以呢健康台灣要有健康空氣要有健康的環境要有健康基本的你花再多的健保費一兆再多下一代過了幾年我們花再多的錢我們的下一代他二三十年之後他會產生各種癌症欸他已經槍千菜他的DNA裡面去沒有馬上發作等到成人之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8108.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8135.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
他會發生各種癌症出來 這個很可怕的所以我只要強調我們的這個本病比進落後的落後很多世界國家的那個更可更可悲是落後我們的口口聲聲的那個對岸的中國那2012時候歐盟就訂的標準他是訂的1 1奈米克那世界衛生組織更嚴格1 10分之1是0.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8137.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8149.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
那我們台灣我們每天在呼吸都是都是一二以上冬天的時候去北部或中南部輪流啦回到山長期高於幾十倍那事實上世界衛生組織講得很清楚這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8151.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8168.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
這個本病比是根本沒有沒有這個所謂的絕對跟相對的空間最好就是零嘛它有一點點就是會致癌的吸進去了那幼兒或是胎兒在體內是完全抵抗力比我們成人更弱的那這個濃度我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
8170.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
8188.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
一定要去好好去制定這個檢測把它降低就像當初我們努力去檢測這個PM2.5所以今天大概很多的討論都相當的好我想要懷疑一個事就是這個空腹法是為了健康那健康根據這個科學醫學的事實現在很多世界研究缺都是很 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
8188.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
8205.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
很精確的數據都出來了所以我們除了說這個把這個空氣的標準在定義不只對我們對我們下一代你經濟再怎麼好可是身體下去一天要看病也沒用啦這個是很嚴重的事情它會穿透了而且影響到下一代 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
8206.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
8225.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那第二個是說今天一個重點是這個是中央地方分群還是怎麼樣誰那個其實我覺得啦真的因為你污染源在那個地方比如說中火這個荼毒了在地那麼多年那南部的興達各地的現在叫深澳等等應該要尊重當地的狀況那個濃度的擴散不一樣那是 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
8225.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
8247.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
污染源的產生不一樣你怎麼可能一刀切呢 對不對所以這個很多的地方自治市以的精神或是因地因人而治癒我們在看病或在處理事情是一樣啊這個個案就個案來處理重要是一個大原則個案來積極處理才是真正面對的方法才能夠解決 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
8251.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
8256.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
謝謝魏崇耀醫師接下來請上軍喜博士各位好我是傳染病的專業我目前在台大公衛學院行政院的防疫體專案辦公室工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
8280.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
8305.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
其實我的論文一直是研究登革熱我一直覺得台灣最嚴重的問題是傳染病那在我們30年前念書的時候那個時候傳染病是沒有人要念的那老師們申請計畫也相當不容易但是從2000年開始情況完全不一樣為什麼呢因為全球暖化那大家知道嗎這個過去這個疫情COVID-19 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
8306.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
8333.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
改變了全世界讓大家很害怕但是在這個實驗室的病毒分類裡面COVID這個冠狀病毒是一個很弱的病毒那如果這樣的變動都可以改變國家那我們不敢想像就是這個全球暖化如果一直持續下去各式各樣的效應天災人禍增加我們面對的傳染病的疫情絕對是越來越嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
8333.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
8354.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
那昨天當大家都在慶祝母親節那非常的溫馨那我想要講一個非常傷心的事情就是我們現在台灣的婦女特別是40到60歲以內正在走向一個肺腺癌的一個好像是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
8356.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
8371.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
沒有辦法避免的宿命那在過去三四十年女性肺腺癌至少增加了三倍高於男性也高於全台灣的平均 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
8373.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
8399.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
我們知道現在台灣正在走向少子化高齡化各式各樣的危機所以現在還願意生養孩子盡心盡力照顧家庭的這些媽媽們特別如果他們還是有一個職業婦女的角色這個社會應該是非常非常寶貴非常非常重要的資源但是令人遺憾的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
8401.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
8417.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
女性的癌症急速的增加 特別是乳癌跟肺癌那肺癌而已 肺腺癌最明顯這個我們的政府目前看起來就是一個好像坐一個雲霄飛車 只能讓它往前衝完全無計可施 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
8419.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
8442.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
在我們念公共衛生的時候都知道有一個很重要的領域叫做婦幼衛生因為今天媽媽跟孩子的健康非常重要就是未來國家的根本再加上現在環境變遷的這麼厲害我們去看一下這個十大死因裡面大家覺得空污不嚴重十大死因裡面幾乎每一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
8443.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
8462.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
除了這些很明顯的這些飲食的這些問題幾乎每一個都是跟PM2.5直接間接相關那不管這個大家覺得資訊夠不夠國際已經很早就認定PM2.5是一個對很多疾病都是一個重要的因子甚至包括這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
8464.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
8486.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
甚至包括憂鬱症甚至包括D型的糖尿病為什麼?因為PM2.5太小了它對人造成的影響是一個全面性的毀壞那大家知道一旦這個免疫系統被毀壞那幾乎什麼病都會發生來的疫情也會更嚴重那所以我們越來越多這種年輕的媽媽一年早逝 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
8489.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
8509.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
他剛剛講過其中大概超過九成都沒有吸菸的沒有吸菸史那這樣的壽事對於國家對於家庭的衝擊大概不是靠那些錢GDP可以衡量的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
8511.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
8532.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
我們講到碳排 現在全世界都在把碳排當作最重要的任務的時候我們就好像一個鐵達尼號 大家已經快要沉船了想辦法極力地力挽狂瀾但是台灣政府現在竟然就是明白地跟整個世界潮流對槓 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
8534.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
8543.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
所以我們很想要進WHO很想要去WHA我們不會受歡迎因為我們是髒店我們這麼小的國家我們不產煤不產油不產天然氣我們卻是要千里迢迢的進口這些東西然後燒給大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
8554.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
8567.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以煤炭 火力發電尤其是煤炭發電它從來都不是最便宜的發電因為它的成本是外價出去它是隱藏的 它是隱藏在環境的污染 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
8569.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
8594.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
以及我也來健保的負擔裡面的所以我在這邊我想要提出三個訴求第一個就是我們國家很可惜今天來的衛福部的官員不多我們國家可不可以針對女性肺腺癌乳癌因為這個很明顯從國外的研究都知道是大部分是從環境污染來的可不可以提出一個比較有效立即立竿進你的防治政策那第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
8595.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
8610.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
其實我們都落入了一個缺電的假議題我們很多時候可能根本不需要這麼多電這些高耗能的產業他們可能賺了很多的錢他們其實是有責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
8611.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
8631.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
那去來發展產業升級我們的政府在政策上面應該有義務去引導這些產業因為這些產業他一旦面臨CBAM一旦面臨這個國際的碳稅的這個壓力他這個產業出口的這個產這個不好意思我再最後一點是沒有競爭力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
8632.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
8659.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
第三點我想要補充的就是在這樣的環評的機制裡面我們常常看不到公共衛生醫護人員也很少未來我希望在各級環評的機制裡面都可以加入公共衛生的專業醫療的專業我想我們並不是要跟誰作對我們只是希望這些東西我們可以理性的來面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
8661.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
8685.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
還給大家一個乾淨的呼吸空間這個是最基本的因為空跟PM2.5跟所有的癌症都有關係那降低所有癌症的發生為社會安寧跟健保的永續經營留一條活路這個才是多贏的局面好 謝謝謝謝上君寫博士接下來請洪輝祥理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
8692.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
8715.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
主席 各位專家學者 各位夥伴我是屏東來自屏東一個農業縣 觀光大縣但是卻吸的是污染城市的髒空氣屏東的平均壽命比我們台北市短了6年7個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
8718.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
8731.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
我們的罹癌尤其是肺腺癌是增加率這個是學者的研究部分的學者共同研究今天也在場南部是北部增加率15倍之多 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
8732.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
8759.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
那短壽六年多增加肺癌又這麼的高難不人難道不生氣嗎當我們生氣的時候我們找周邊的立委找周邊的朋友沒想到我們才發現2018年悄悄的被修法改變了地方政府不能去管制他的燃煤許可的license這個license不是管制燃煤是管制鍋爐操作許可 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
8760.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
8783.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
所以他根本跟能源政策無關他是跟地方首長要確保他仆人的生命權憲法賦予他的天職有關結果他竟然被凍結了原來2018年民進黨執政的時候竟然偷偷被休掉了以前是可以的我們好憤怒 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
8784.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
8798.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
我就覺得怎麼會一個地方首長根據地方自治根據民主主權在民這些基本邏輯他都應該為他的僕人善盡地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
8799.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
8820.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
這個健康照護的責任 結果他兩手一攤我跟我們的環保局長討論 他說他唯一可以用的是好鄰居條款打電話跟高雄市政府的環保局說咱何處逼 你應該檢排 什麼都做不了所以我們應該建議立法委員把地方這個選舉沒收 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
8824.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
8849.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
我們地方首長是照顧不了他的選民的我們應該要官派就好了中央政府去官派屏東縣縣長 高雄市市長所以我在2022年的時候就送給陳其邁市長一個奶嘴因為他管制不了中鋼中鋼確實是我們南部的Particle的貢獻高達45% |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
8851.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
8873.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
中油在VOC的貢獻超過55台電系統在南部貢獻的PM2.5NOx都超過一半以上結果我們高雄市政府說他什麼都管不著因為這個都不是他的權限真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
8874.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
8893.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
所以我們幹嘛還在花那麼多的錢勞民傷財去選縣市首長我們縣市首長就中央政府派就好了嘛而且今天也蠻符合環境部的主張環境部竟然講這些能源政策都不應該交給地方來管 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
8894.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
8921.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
主權在民在你的認知裡面好像完全我們好像不是完全完全不是民主國家這是讓我很驚訝然後經濟部又講8000個企業然後剛剛前面的幾個朋友都說了嘛玉敏立委也說了嘛最新更正版的工部長講的是2032年一概不缺電幾個月前才跟媒體說的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
8922.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
8945.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
2032年都不缺電喔我們怎麼還在擔心它這個幽靈在線的星達 中火還有賣電這些燃煤機組它本來就依法就不應該存在了結果你們還在幫它護航然後工種還出來說如果不能讓這些燃煤電廠護屁葉子還會受創 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
8951.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
8978.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
我終於懂了我們在這邊咳嗽我們在這邊一個一個倒在那個癌症病房送進病院原來我們的公務部門是不在乎的我還以為天真的以為說我們的公務人員會在乎我的身體健康我錯了很抱歉我真的要跟大家致歉跟經濟部致歉跟環境部致歉我錯了誤解你們了我們納稅養的不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
8980.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
8998.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
這個公僕啦 我們養的是天底耶燒一堆一級自來物給公民這已經是我們所有科學知識 你們都知道的是一級自來物了你還不斷地在幫它合理化 尤其經濟部次長我覺得我對你失望透底了 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9001.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9027.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
對啊 一臂的認為我們就是不能讓產業靠背產業都已經在殺人了你還要讓這種產業 一集一支不斷地排放還在為它找下台階你這不是標準公務人員 你應該被彈劾才對憲法賦予你的是保障你的公民 你是公務人員保障主人的生命財產權 不是保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9029.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9039.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
台放一級自來物的產業主除非他給你利益輸送謝謝謝謝洪輝祥理事長接下來請林翠蘭我們行動聯盟發起人健康難道 健康難道 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9056.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9072.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
大家好 我們的時段可能已經出去了早上就來中島的時候開記者會當時在802看時光轉播南島的鄉親 六分清六分清 我就想說 我做二空一年台灣健康空氣聯盟來跟我說我們第三空氣的四人的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9084.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
9104.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
我現在開始算六分錢 我要說我的辛苦兵我所知道的 丟丟 肺腺癌 肺癌 相關疾病往生死期的 萬分我看六分錢 我說不算 我真的說不算啦我 日空一三年 加日民主進步黨我 正經選舉之旅 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
9111.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
9125.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
中國黨代表兩年前說要把我開除黨籍因為我要去過地獄 要去過農場那時候說要把我退黨我自己就退黨了 我就你們把我開除了剛才來的一車 郵輪車 我那一輛是大林道七 水利 第三六角那一輛都是民主進步黨的 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
9138.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
9148.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
基隆總大哥帶頭的在台東移動的時候就在走街頭沒動變成有動有動變成現在現在才知道說怎麼會這樣啦六分鐘我知道我不知道我要說什麼會的啊我們在日本的開記者會的時候有一個陳大哥 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
9165.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
9179.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
有來一句話都不說因為在南島他也有一些地名都說不盡管退休事實說他也不過以後他才知道說他沒有當年年輕五十歲五十歲就發生了事件當時就是跟這個空汙跟小偷偷有關係真的說到現在南島人第三六角 六里很多人不知道他怎麼死的 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
9194.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
9212.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
今年一萬八千多人都是知道的啦現在中間第四期的自己不知道要一大堆啦我在第三座社區的理事長我們那個社區三百多個委員是中部最大最最社區的人我跟你們說無論如何你們一定要去做在這張電腦當成掃描在這個當中一年的時間也十多個 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
9226.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
9237.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
發覺說因為這個檢查 知道說自己肺腺癌經過為我一個最好的製作朋友50出頭費一個成功的企業家肺腺癌掛掉 把他一部分都掛掉我看我繼續講下去 我時間到了 我要怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
9249.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
9259.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
我很感謝台灣健康空氣聯盟在這兩年來 用電話主動聯絡我說我住的那個地方有四人那個時候 同樣找到我的時段剛才蔡佩蕙就要送去 不放空入圍在送去的時候 她說這個時候 人才會看到你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
9274.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
9284.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
組織的時期開始 原本我是藍豆縣健康協藍豆縣環保聯盟的理事長我們就懷疑說 我們把第三我們的燃煤 重油 都已經把它停掉了我們覺得我們吃夠了我只知道當時有一個更大的 更嚴重的 讓我們四名 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
9300.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
9318.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
會不會失敗?會中邪嗎?竟然我也不知道我覺得台灣的環境教育的愚民化我是彰化時代的碩士了蓮花藥 我也不知道我今天在台灣正在講這個問題就告訴你 我就知道了時間就要到了 還要怎樣?問一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
9324.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
9336.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
坐高鐵 我就要開車去黑日50分鐘反倒大地上 我就高鐵坐在台北 開去吃飯當晚我的鄉親街頭運動 今天是金剛門公廳飯 我可以做什麼我南島有我家族人 我家族人如果沒辦法生就請他們家的主人 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
9350.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
9379.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
我小時候看到我們出民團會的一些老闆 如果這樣忘記了一些男人酒喝到無奈的時候 你會叫他的酒餐我喝醉了 我要在這裡酒餐如果把這個空污修法斷掉只要你讓人民的心碎 國家的心碎 學者 立委 也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
9381.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
9395.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
那些什麼部長 經濟部長 我現在氣死了 又忘記了經濟部長 給這國民選票再來彭啟明 彭啟明 六千億我告訴你 你家的人只要動這個法案的報告總社民 老建國中部議員 中南部所有民主黨的立委任何一個人 你如果動 你家一定會中獎給你中獎 你才會知道 怎麼可以 怎麼靠 怎麼會 最新 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
9411.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
9425.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
好不好我希望我代表藍投線因為燃眉造成癌症死亡或現在還不知道這些人這些亡靈詛咒你們謝謝林翠蘭我們行動聯盟發起人現在請鍾嘉賓委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
9459.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
9481.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
好謝謝今天我們是一個空氣污染防治法的公聽會那麼這個規範的涉及到了不只是氣候還包括產業還包括能源那為什麼排放標準最好由中央來統籌制定呢我們來推演一下首先這次修法的重點我們看到不管是羅廷偉的版本還是民眾黨團的版本他這裡面都有說地方政府得這表示呢這是開放給地方一個選擇權 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
9482.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
9511.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
包括什麼包括制定更嚴格的標準變更許可證我想這兩個都是可以說是進步的一個象徵甚至可以強制配合要求其改善或者說把審查當作一個工具超過兩個月你沒有完成就停工那也可以禁止部分燃料的使用同時他們的手段都包括許可證的展延期限都可以縮短到兩到五年或者說部分的縮短到不到兩年兩個碼都會這樣情況了解這次修法的一個概況之後往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
9511.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
9533.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
就是那地方去規定之後會有什麼樣的結果我們來推演一下因為你禁止使用部分的燃料那有可能這個電廠原來的煤電廠他就要不就改善要不能改善了他就怎麼樣企業會怎麼做可能是電廠可能是產業因為地方政府做了這樣的規定在法律授權之下因此呢他的燃料被禁止了那麼排放標準呢更加嚴了 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
9534.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
9559.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
那請問企業會怎麼做我們來思考一下往下看所以企業會怎麼做呢因為地方這麼可以制定那比較嚴格的地區可能產業或電廠他選擇搬到其他沒有家園的縣市那這個時候他轉移進入之後那有可能成為了結果其他縣市為了防堵他們跑過來所以我們也被迫家園是不是這樣子呢有現在有一個現象叫什麼叫做企土 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
9560.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
9575.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
氣土已經在造成這個情況了往下看好那麼如果是空氣流動跟氣土不同啊如果就算是我在某個假地方成功靜止結果電廠移到隔壁那請問在我們台灣這個大氣的氣流是不是會再回來呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
9576.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
9591.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
所以為什麼過去我們有關於這個空污的制定都是由環境部做全國一個包括總量的限制目的是要思考到氣候的因素單純的授權給地方政府能夠達到比較好的局部改善嗎我們來繼續往下討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
9593.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
9607.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
所以說如果A縣市加嚴 結果跑到B縣市 B縣市不動所以他們就跑到B縣市去了那B縣市有可能兩個做法 一個是他被迫法規也加嚴另外一個他說什麼 那我不加嚴 我請你們來 譬如說台積電大家喜歡台積電過去對不對 那台積電現在它是耗電量的大電力用戶現在經濟部說這些大電力的用戶請你們自備發電 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
9618.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
9647.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
那這時候就一端一個兩難了到底地方他為了要吸引特定的產業要不要接受在法規上容許他進來的一個籌碼其實這很可惜的空氣品質如果變成跟吸引產業的一個投資籌碼可是更嚴重的是什麼B縣市沒有加鹽他爭取到了結果空氣跑回哪裡跑回加鹽的A縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
9648.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
9657.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
那個就是我們要思考一下立法能不能達到我們的目的我們的目的都是值得肯定的但是手段要怎麼做才能達到效果我們下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
9657.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
9684.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
所以說今天一個火力電廠尤其是藍莓的它被認為是高度的污染所以它是零幣設施所以所在的地點我們把它加嚴了有可能電廠就因此關門了但是如果說地方有電力的需求它在面對到發電設施又有電力需求的時候零幣設施它都不要那就產生一個什麼補償的機制如果地方只要電卻不要電廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
9686.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
9706.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
那沒有補償的機制會造成什麼大家都要電可是沒有人要電廠那如果我不用電廠來講我講什麼我講垃圾焚化爐在我的所在屏東我們最早開始的一個垃圾焚化爐在A鄉好了為了這樣的方式那時候的環保署給了這個鄉一個設了環 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
9709.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
9720.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
垃圾焚化爐因為是處理全線的垃圾所以給它補償機制可是那時候忽略了這個補償機制剛才設立的時候煙囪很高啊所以那個箱很小啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
9721.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
9741.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
菸都跑到哪裡去跑到其他縣市去啊其他縣市說在你那邊蓋結果補償你拿但是我們受害我們拿不到所以就算有補償機制也要思考到這個補償機制能不能將這些環境成本怎麼樣的有效的做一些適合的平衡再往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
9741.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
9764.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
所以我們來看一下空污的排放法規它的影響是多面向如果目前我們授權給地方做寬延不一的標準行政資源不一樣啦會造成污染的避風港啦跨縣市營運的企業它就可以開始挪移啦然後呢還有會排擠了一些必要的基礎設施那考量到氣候因素電力調配跟產業佈局其實我個人認為整個空污法規還是要有一個全國一致穩定且科學的標準最後結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
9771.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
9784.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
就是說由於空氣污染物質難以透過人為的行政區的劃分去決定它的影響因此我們應該要建立穩定可預期的標準那這就應該要求環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
9786.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
9805.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
根据科学证据来严格的制定那在考量到空气品质产业发展跟能源需求的情况之下我们应该要有一个全国一致的规范如果有不同的抉择譬如说准许假地而不在已地那么你这样的补偿机制也要建立而且在补偿机制建立的时候 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
9806.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
9829.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
也要注意到它的補償的效果的對應對價方式因此我在這裡我覺得剛剛我們今天在討論我們公聽會所說的這兩套的修法是否可以從這樣的原則來審視我想就我個人立場是非常的清楚以上就交給各位謝謝謝謝曾嘉斌委員接下來請李全和律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
9839.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
9850.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
大家好我剛剛這個從第一位先進聽到剛剛委員在報告我的內容之前我有點想法想跟大家先分享一下就是說今天我們來討論這個法條的修正似乎支持這個法條的內容的就會比較重視空氣品質的改善不支持這個法規就不重視或反過來講如果我們今天來提到一些能源的 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
9864.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
9874.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
調度能源的供給的平衡好像就是要去反對這個法案但是我認為這個問題他應該是不要被單純化成我支持這個法案的與否就當然性的表示我比較支持空氣還是我比較支持能源的穩定的發展我們常常有時候都會說台灣人不要既要且要既要這個又要那個但是兩個東西看起來有點衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
9890.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
9908.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
但是我今天就想要試圖做一個既要且要的人既要且要的觀點就是我既重視好的空氣品質因為剛剛幾位先進的報告也是讓我很有感觸但是同時間能源大家其實還是很在乎所以我們把能源的問題提出來不等於在反對這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
9908.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
9927.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
我真的想說的也就是我今天要往下談的內容雖然時間很短但是就說法條的內容法條的修正本來就有很多可能性那我就只講今天的這個修法的草案因為我個人是學憲法的如果我看到他一些憲法的問題我不提出來提供給大家有其他更多的可能性當然這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
9929.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
9953.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
以律師一個很務實的角度來說如果這個條文就算通過了那它裡面的違憲一定被提出來甚至有人申請釋憲就這樣子被幹掉那或許也不是大家所樂見的結果所以我想它的憲法問題很重要也就是說談了那麼多大家在談空氣品質但是又同時又在談能源那這到底是一個什麼樣的問題其實在法規設計的領域本來就很多這種複合性領域 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
9954.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
9983.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
那我們不能說我今天是空污法我只思考空污的問題同樣的我們當然也不能說能源很重要所以變成在談的時候都往能源那個方向去偏重所以它會形成一個什麼問題我覺得問題的核心還是在分權這件事情所以我今天還是要談一下那個權力分立地方分權這個問題也就是它的關鍵可能還是會到憲法因為我們就是一個有憲法的國家憲法就是有規定權力分立有規定中央跟地方的權限分工好那今天的因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
9984.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10009.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
要對環保事項做很多的管制他其實不同的領域有一些屬於中央有一些屬於地方有一些可能屬於分權的可是就以空污這件事情來說為什麼會一直談到他可能會跟能源有關能源又會是中央事項因為那個憲法107條寫的這是我必須提一個就是在那個修法的草案有提到的我們修法的28條裡面的修法理由有特別提到4-738跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10011.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10033.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
最高憲法第94年11月的決議可是他反而沒有提到再更後來也就是前陣子有憲法法庭的時候當然現在也有之後更早的憲法法庭111年憲判是第6號那容我念一下這段話他有說表面上看似涉及到各地方市民的事務的規範對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10034.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10051.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
但是規範效果或試用結果如果會對轄區之外的居民事務產生直接密切的影響可能就會涉及到全國形勢下這段話能不能來做我們現在討論的重點這時候我又再提兩點一個其實是常常大家在討論的能源的供給 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10052.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10074.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
就台灣的地方那麼小那是不是各縣市能夠自給自足然後大家會提到比如說南電北送這種現象我們今天不是說南電北送的現象是不是實際俗世因為這不同的看法但是大家沒有辦法否認一件事情是台灣的能源電力的調度它其實是互相影響互相支援的不管今天是南電北送北電南送就各有說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10074.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
10090.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
所以你從能源供給面來看這件事情他確實會有剛剛一年憲判制所說的他其實實質的結果可能會導致轄區外的居民這是一個憲法上我們沒辦法迴避的情況那第二個是剛剛也先進有提到一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
10091.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
10119.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
造成污染的因素有很多好像有五大因素等等如果我們看真的是比較就地的因素主要還是排放遠這件事情可是排放量的結果或是地形天氣甚至剛剛也有先進提到那個二次污染轉化就化學反應這個問題它其實絕對是跨縣式的就是我們知道說空氣它不可能就是說我的地方畫一條線之後它就會停留在那邊所以我一直在想一個就是說我們要怎麼去務實的看待這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
10120.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
10136.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
今天如果大家覺得說中央的法規標準不夠嚴格或中央執法那不是我今天要來這邊談的因為我們今天在談的是修法既然是修法我們就要面對法條本身是不是真的符合地方制度法一個憲法所授權的情況所以我講了剛剛那個事項來說為什麼它會被憲法界定為全國事項是這樣來的那當它以全國事項為這個前提之後我們來看那個新法的28條3項它產生了一個很明顯的憲法問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
10148.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
10166.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
他允許讓地方更嚴格好那他在不是地方事項的情況底下在能源管制上面如果可以嚴格當然他是透過空污管制來達到能源管制的效果好那這樣的地方更嚴同時是中央只有被查權他有兩個問題第一個是如果中是屬於中央事項地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
10167.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
10181.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
怎麼樣更嚴格他一旦更嚴格他就會破中央事項他就顯然抵觸了地方制度法跟憲法上的預設除非你當然要說這應該是一個地方事項或是共享事項那當然會是另外一個議題所以他會架空中央法規這是一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
10182.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
10212.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
那中央只剩下被查權它又會再形成一個問題也就是我們的地方制度法那個26條三項事項有明寫如果你地方涉及的其實是限制禁止行為這種裁罰或管制性不利處分它其實是要核定的是不涉及的情況才能被查所以它要明顯抵觸地方制度法那我再一下下把它結束掉所以剛剛也有五位先進說那如果方向是正確的目標是正確的目的是好的那我們是不是也要搭配去做這些修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
10212.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
10235.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
沒有錯或許大家就要回頭來討論那我要不要去修地方支付法我要不要去修憲法可是如果光以現在的這空法的這一策修正草案我認為把權限用這樣的方式使給地方他會有問題好那他的問題其實是一個憲法問題好那再回到剛剛其實周委員剛剛有提到也是我的另外一個想法是說他的那個0b效應也會發生在法規中 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
10235.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
10251.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
好大家其實會有一個禁足的效果禁足什麼禁足一個法規標準怎麼樣最嚴格最低最後那個標準會是零比如說零排放好那還達到空氣管制的目標不過當各縣市都是這個結果的時候那不就在講一件事情是那這個標準不就應該要一致不就應該要統一 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
10252.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
10270.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
至於這個一致統一你覺得應該是中央好還是地方好大家可以見仁見智有不同想法但是憲法現在的規範以及剛剛講的那個憲判制他講的就是中央所以這是我從比較憲法的角度跟大家的一點點補充當然如果還有其他想法我可能會在事後再跟大家再就教再補充好 謝謝謝謝李全和律師接下來請專案秉傑教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
10292.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
10310.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
其實今天主要是要討論說每年新增的一萬八千個這個費線來如何去把它降下來我這邊其實從2011年就是被台塑告了之後或者是把國防司法停到之後其實那個問題到看到現在看了14年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
10310.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
10339.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
那當中間把PM2.5變成一個國家標準我覺得其實是滿大的突破啦但是現在一直沒有辦法突破是那個肺腺癌還降不下來但是肺磷狀細胞已經降下來了那核心觀察這一點是就是我們中山醫學大學有一個李輝教授他在十幾年前就在研究肺腺癌只是我最近開始好好看他的paper那他說像 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
10340.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
10364.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
虐跟弱虐跟弱經過PM2.5進入呼吸系統之後那它可以抑制DNA的修補能力並加速P53跟EGFR的基因突變而提高肺腺癌發生的風險這是李輝教授的研究那他提到特別兩個致癌物質是虐跟弱 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
10365.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
10387.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
那生他沒有研究了那他說孽跟弱就主要是增加女性的肺癌他覺得是主要的一個因素在那個時間點他沒有分得很清楚肺腺癌是磷狀血斑他基本上只是講女生不抽菸得肺癌的問題所以他主要是女生我想他主要目標應該就是肺腺癌 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
10388.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
10416.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那我大概為這個問題我大概看了十幾年對那鎳主要的來源就是油品譬如說船舶重油電廠譬如說協和我一直希望把它淘汰掉因為那是排放鎳很大污染源汽機車也很多但汽機車裡面有些小爭議我們最近看了一下可能不是油品可能是機油可能是機油那如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
10417.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
10434.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
葛洛來講的話有部分是來自萊梅電廠沒有錯那森主要是來自萊梅電廠那森我們最近做很多研究發現森應該是造成磷狀細胞癌的主要因素就是磷狀細胞癌也是剛剛葉醫師看一下在我們的海線 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
10436.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
10451.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
那在宜蘭還有在我們彰化雲林這邊非常多的肺癌那大部分是因為跟生有關係那跟藍莓電廠的生大概占了50所以很有關係對那從大器的監測對下一頁好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
10454.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
10470.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
那從這張圖也是要講一下這張圖是很早以前的研究是2008年到2012年13年前的資料所以那個時間點台中市的女生肺腺癌是全台灣最高的那台中市 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
10471.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
10488.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
的費線會高過台中縣那下面是台北市嘉義市也高過嘉義縣那台北市高過台北縣就那時候的新北市那台南市高過台南縣那高雄市高過高雄縣新竹市高過高雄縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
10489.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
10506.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
所以從2018到剛剛說的2012年這個時間點其實費謝來這個名詞還很少人知道甚至那時候有錢人也不會去做LDCT那時候十幾年前大家不知道所以這個資料是跟大家講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
10508.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
10534.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
都會的費縣來高過非都會的費縣來是在2018、2012年那時候就是這樣子的所以費縣來的高在都會的高跟大家做這費縣來篩檢其實沒有關係的因為很早以前2012年以前就是這個樣子的所以這回來衍生費縣來到底什麼造成的那回到上一頁那費縣來造成就剛剛說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
10536.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
10551.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
可能李惠教授的研究來講應該是逆跟弱應該是逆跟弱所以想讓大家想一題就是說如果我們這一次主要目的是想要降到18000個肺腺癌的話我們的策略是什麼我們空法要怎麼修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
10553.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
10578.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
那剛剛提到一個生物累積的一個資料或者大器的監測在下面那張圖在下面抱歉抱歉在下面的圖抱歉這個就是現在鎳的分布2022年鎳的分布那你看台中市這邊的鎳特別特別的高高雄市的鎳也特別特別的高 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
10579.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
10604.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
那是不是跟大家講那台北市已經降下來了甚至雲林這邊也降下來了所以跟大家講說你如果要把這個一萬八千個廢線來降下去就要想辦法把台中市跟高雄市的內要把它降下來那這策略是什麼不是簡然美不是簡然美從剛剛的提示來講的話交通源可能是關鍵可能是機油是關鍵 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
10606.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
10635.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
那所以我覺得我們一直在打鬧不曉得在鬧什麼那當然這些很多結果我只能跟大家提醒一下我絕對希望把肺腺癌降下來也希望肺磷狀腺癌持續下降藍莓持續下降那藍莓的部分在我來講已經不是重點了我想從經濟部的報告也講出來了興達的藍莓的污染已經減了99%了為什麼剩下那1%那個1%就是在去年5月的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
10636.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
10661.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
去年剪了99%的新達台中市也剪了80幾%了那剩下那1%那10幾%為了什麼呢因為我先講完已經我就問你去年的5月如果你把你如果把新達來沒停掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
10664.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
10688.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
我跟你講你去年五月如果你把新達你新達如果你真的把它停掉你如果把新達不讓啟動沒有我先講先講去年的五月去年的五月新達為什麼啟動 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
10690.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
10718.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
為什麼啟動那時候飛河那時候和平藍莓電廠三部機組因為颱風土石流全部沒有台灣一下子少掉五個機組那個時間點新達不得不啟動那如果不啟動會發生什麼事情你們高雄會限電你台中市會限電限電的時候有多少阿公阿嬤是拿個呼吸器在家裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
10719.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
10741.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
你叫他停電嗎你忍心把他呼吸管排掉嗎就是只有幾天有多少阿公阿嬤在家裡我主張新達在當所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
10743.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
10751.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
辛達當全台灣有五個燃煤機組或燃氣機組當他跳的時候當他跳的時候你辛達必須起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
10761.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
10778.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
他只是一年啟動個五天你都不能接受嗎那個五天是為了要你醫院那你醫院那你在家裡的父母你家裡的阿公阿嬤拿著呼吸器的時候讓他不會你知道你知道你知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
10780.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
10806.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
你知道那幾天你知道再更早一次再更早一次新達跳電的時候那高雄市也停電那一天多少阿公阿嬤在高雄市至少有兩個阿公阿嬤因為呼吸器拿掉而死掉你要造成這個死人嗎所以我跟大家講 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
10808.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
10825.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
我跟大家講那幾天那幾天新達的啟動救了很多阿公阿嬤那現在大家要減少一萬八千個人的費線來你要找到目標你的目標是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
10829.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
10835.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
那幾天五個大型機組同時沒有五個大型機組同時沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
10853.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
10869.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
那只是才啟動個五天才啟動個五天他才啟動個五天而已他已經減掉百分之九十九了剩下百分 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
10870.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
10891.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
他只是增加百分...他只是回來百分之一那個救了很多阿公阿嬤在呼吸器好好 結束了好 謝謝在庭宿命資料謝謝謝謝選手專家及委員群已發言完畢我們請行政機關做整體回應我們先請環境部回應不好意思請請坐 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
10900.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
10913.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
請坐下來聽我們長官的回應 謝謝請雙方冷靜坐下來好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
10930.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
10937.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
結合男氣之主哪上上來馬上有錢更多請莊炳傑教授來主張言後先達南北電廠連你來發起 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
10939.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
10959.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
好 不好意思 我們請環境部做回應壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力減少 壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
10966.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
10985.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
謝謝主席還有謝謝各位委員跟各位先進那麼今天的這個公聽會裡面其實我們對於各界所提出來有關於可以改善空氣溫暖的作為我們都會來把它納入來做後面的一個規劃跟考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
10986.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11001.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
但是這一次的修法的部分在各界的意見也都非常的多其實我們還是建議能夠有更多的討論讓修法可以更加周延那麼如果有關於其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11002.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11024.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
我們剛剛有提到的疾病跟空氣管的關係的話那我剛剛在報告的時候我們彭部長已經跟衛福部這裡有一個雙次長的會議就這個部分來做對那我們也是從這裡來規劃這相關的研究還有把這方面來為一個提升那以上簡單的說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11026.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
11038.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
電動牌裡面管控好謝謝環境部次長現在請經濟部次長電動牌裡面管控電小啦730天百日新政可以7年7年的百日新政 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
11040.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
11064.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
主席各位專家學者謝謝各位今天的指正那我想很顯然大家對這個空法的修法需要更多的討論那因為許多的數據許多的科學的論證其實更需要更多的這個各界這邊來蒐集而且提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
11065.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
11094.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
穩定供電一向是經濟部非常重要的一個任務那協助產業的發展以及協助民生的各項用電的需求那都是經濟部重大的一個任務重大的責任那我想台電在穩定供電上是有許多的電源調度的一些責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
11094.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
11119.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
那我想今天各位大家的指正我想我們會帶回去作為政策的參考那我希望更多的公聽會能夠透過各界的討論還有意見的交換能夠來形成共識再來決定是不是要做修法以上是經濟部的一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
11120.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
11143.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
好謝謝次長回應做一下結論依據立法院之前新司法規定委員會應提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及出席者公聽會報告作為審查特定議案的參考我會把各位的寶貴意見及書面資料匯整成冊分送給本院的全體委員及與會的政府機關代表學者專家參閱 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
11144.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
11151.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
今天非常感謝各位的出席並提供寶貴意見本次公聽會到此結束 散會 |