| IVOD_ID |
17430 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17430 |
| 日期 |
2026-05-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-36-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
13 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-05-11T08:33:40+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-05-11T11:56:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:22:20 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc979b49e85773c2c6256888a197c3faf3b7b695d4fecf9ee90659268439c3c4d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-05-11T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查
（ㄧ）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「法官法第九十條條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「法官法第四條及第九十條條文修正草案」案。
【第（二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】
二、繼續併案審查
（ㄧ）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。(11-2-1院會付委)
（二）委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百零四條條文修正草案」案。
（五）委員李柏毅等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十條文修正草案」案。
三、繼續併案審查
（ㄧ）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。(11-3-8院會付委)
（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法第九十三條及第一百零一條條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員翁曉玲等25人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百十三條條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第九十三條及第一百零一條條文修正草案」案。
【第（四）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】
【本次會議僅進行詢答】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:33:40 - 11:56:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1651.977 |
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1655.782 |
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報告委員會出席委員八人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會委員還有現場的官員們大家早安我們現在開會首先先進行報告事項請先宣讀上次的會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1668.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1689.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第十一屆第五會期司法及法治委員會第十二次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十五年五月六日星期三上午九時至十一時二十八分五月七日星期四上午九十二分至十一時十一分地點紅樓三零二會議室主席委員吳宗憲委員等十二人列席委員鍾嘉斌委員等八人 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1690.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1712.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
列席官員五月六日行政院人事行政總署副人事長張秋元等人五月七日考試院秘書長劉建興等人主席莊交及委員瑞雄五月六日報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項依審查一百一十五年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院人事行政總署及所屬主管收支部分等二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1713.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1735.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
本日會議有委員吳宗憲等10人提出質詢委員蔡啟昌許新穎提出書面質詢決議一第一案及第二案報告及詢答完畢均另定期繼續審查二委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關尽速送交個別委員及本會三審查會委員針對本日已成所列討論事項之預算提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1736.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1762.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
請於5月13日星期三下午20前送交本會 預時不予受理5月7日討論事項一 審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於考試院及所屬主管收支部分等四案本日會議有委員陳昭芝等9人提出質詢委員蔡啟章等3人提出書面質詢決議一 第一案至第四案報告及詢答完畢 均應定期繼續審查二 委員執行運使要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1763.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1776.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會三審查會委員針對本日議程所列討論事項之預算提案請於5月19日星期二下午20前送交本會預時不予受理宣讀案必請問各位委員上次會議的議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏沒有的話我們就議事錄確定那接著我就先介紹到場的委員及應邀列席的官員首先介紹是陳昭之委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1793.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1804.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
然後吳宗憲委員謝謝然後今天應邀列席的有司法院的秘書長高秘書長法務部的馮承馮長賜好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1810.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1832.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
其餘未及介紹的列席代表請參閱名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄本次議程討論的事項共計排定三案分別為第一案病案審查法官法第90條條文修正草案等案以及第二第三案繼續病案審查刑事訴訟法的部分條文修正草案等案本次會議僅進行詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1837.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1855.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我們接下來就進行委員提案說明每位委員發言的時間原則上三分鐘因為今天是三個案一起並案說明所以必要時間的話可以再延長那麼就請提案人進行提案說明我們首先先請陳昭之委員代表民眾黨黨團來做提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1865.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1889.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
謝謝主席 各位同仁今天我要說明兩項司法改革的提案一項是刑事訴訟法的部分條文的修正案另一項是法官法的第90條修正案這兩項修法的核心目的都是想要找回司法公平正義避免司法淪為當權者的工具首先是刑事訴訟法對於偵查審取程序的人權保障是不夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1890.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1893.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
甚至出現長時間的詢問疲勞徵詢的狀況還有部分不肖檢察官透過押人取供讓當事人在身心俱疲的狀況下做出不利的陳述這對基本的人權是非常嚴重的侵害跟傷害另外羈押裁定常常出現 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1910.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1939.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
裁定 勘告 撤銷 撤發毀不斷循環的一個情況被告究竟要不要羈押遲遲無法確定案件久懸不絕不僅影響當事人權益也讓社會對整個司法公正性產生了質疑因此本黨提出修法強化對被告人的人權保障我們拒絕 杜絕這個疲勞訊問也避免因為上架級的法院見解不一讓整個案件一拖再拖 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1940.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1957.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那第二項是法官法第90條的修正案近年來社會一再質疑檢查跟司法體系的人事安排遭到政治力的介入掌握權力的人透過人事調動安排安插自己人打壓不聽話的人這個甚至會影響整個司法偵辦的一個方向因此本黨團主張要改革檢察官人事審議委員會的組成 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1965.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1992.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
減少官派委員比例並引進據公信力的外部委員參與讓檢察官的人事制度更透明更客觀避免行政權黑手深入司法體系我想沒有人可以否認司法存在的目的不是服務當權者是要保障人民的權利今天這兩項修法就是要讓人民相信司法可以不受政治操控 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1993.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2020.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
也不會在程序當中任意侵害人權敬請各位委員可以支持謝謝謝謝陳老師委員接下來我們請提案的翁曉琳做提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2025.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2040.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
主席各位委員各位同仁大家好那今年本席提出三項與司法制度改革密切相關的修正草案那這三個修法呢看起來呢都是屬於不同的條文但是其實都有個共同的核心重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2040.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2064.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
就是司法權力再大都不能夠失去制衡程序再有效率都不能夠犧牲人民的自由那麼首先本席要說明的是法官法我所提的第一個修法提案法官法第四條及第九十條的修正草案那麼這個法官法處理的問題就是現在司法人權人事權過度集中 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2066.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2087.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那麼司法最重要的不只是法官怎麼判案而是由誰決定法官檢察官的人事身兼與獎懲因為人事權呢就是司法體系真正的權利核心那現在的司法院的人事審議委員會是司法院院長可以指定11位委員那麼檢察官的人事審議委員會也是由法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2088.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2098.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
部長以及檢察總長掌握高度的主導權結果是什麼呢結果呢就是本來應該是作為集體審議相互制衡的人事制度逐漸就變成少數高層主導的封閉體系那麼這也是社會長期對司法最 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2104.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2123.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
深最不信任的來源之一喔那麼人民不一定要懂法律條文但是人民會觀察為什麼有些檢察官或法官申請的特別快為什麼有些檢察官和法官總是能夠掌握重要的位置為什麼司法體系看起來越像是自己人決定自己人呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2124.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2138.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以本次的修法就是要把這個過度集中的權力重新拉回到制度的制衡我們將司法院院長的指定委員由11人降為5人同時要增加外部學者專家人數引進社會更多元的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2140.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2160.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那麼檢察官人事審議委員會的部分呢也是降低官派的比例增加外部委員並且明定主任委員是應該是要由委員互選不再由法務部部長指定我想這不是削弱司法獨立相反的這才是真正的強化司法獨立因為真正的司法獨立不是讓權力更集中而是要讓權力能夠受到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2162.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2172.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
節制不是讓少數人決定一切而是要建立透明多元以及可監督的人事機制那接下來本席要說的第二個修法就是刑事訴訟法第93條以及第101條的修正案那麼這是涉及到羈押制度太擴張的這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2179.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2203.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那麼這個修法要處理的就是台灣司法長期最嚴重的問題之一就是我們已經把羈押常態化了那羈押是國家在法院判決確定前直接剝奪人身自由依照憲法第八條的規定其實那羈押是只能夠作為最後的手段但是我們現在看到食物的運作卻早已經變質最常見的羈押理由就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2205.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2222.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
將有勾串共犯或證人之餘問題是什麼叫做有勾串之餘很多的時候是因為還有共犯還沒有到案或是證據還沒有查完或者是被告否認犯行甚至公詞不一致就被認定是有串證的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2224.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2252.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
換句話說很多案件呢是只要檢察官想要羈押被告幾乎都可以找得到理由那麼這已經不是例外的處分而是接近常態的運作更嚴重的是這種模糊的這種標準極為模糊很容易就淪為押人取供的工具所以本次的修法非常的明確就是要第一要明定羈押必須是無其他替代手段的時候才能夠使用第二個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2254.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2272.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
勾串共犯或證人不能夠只靠抽象推測必須要有明確具體的行為第三就是如果檢察官要限制辯護人越卷防禦權就必須要提出具體的事實理由以及必要的證據而不是一句偵查不公開或是保護偵查的秘密就封鎖被告辯護人的權利這個修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2274.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2299.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
不是在保護犯罪而是在保護所有的人民不會在法院上位判決確定之前就被國家以模糊的理由來剝奪自由因為司法最大的危險從來就不是沒有權力而是權力失去分寸權力被濫用所以這個部分是我們所提出的修法案最後是有關於刑事訴訟法第413條的修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2301.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2320.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這個修法是要處理近年來司法實務最荒謬的現象之一就是羈押裁定反覆的抗告反覆的發回那麼下級法院裁定不押檢察官抗告那麼高院又撤銷發回下級法院再做裁定檢察官再抗告高院又再撤銷這個羈押的問題可以來回好幾次 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2324.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2349.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
過去甚至有出現過檢方五度申請羈押法院五度駁回然後檢方又再五度抗告高院又再四度的發回請問各位這還是法治國家嗎被告不是訴訟程序中的司法人求人民的人身自由不應該要在法院與法院之間被反覆的踢來踢去 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2350.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2373.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
所以本次修法明定就羈押、拒保、責負、限制住居等等抗告案件抗告法院應該要自為裁定不得一再的撤銷發回因為人身自由是經不起訴訟程序的空轉模號各位同仁今天這三個修法雖然都分屬不同的制度但是在本質上都是在做同一件事情就是要節制司法權利讓司法權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2374.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2393.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
回到憲法上面的合理必要性的界限裡面司法固然需要有效率但是司法更應該要有所節制檢察官當然必須要打擊犯罪但是國家不能夠被無限制的擴張強制處分所以司法體系必須要自治不能夠形成封閉 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2394.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2414.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
權力的結構一個真正成熟的民主國家不是要讓國家的權力越來越大而是要即使面對犯罪面對政治壓力仍然願意堅守程序正義以及人權保障所以今天這三個修法絕對不是在削弱司法而是我們要挽救人民對司法的信任以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2427.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2441.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
接下來我們就有請機關代表來報告每位發言時間原則上三分鐘因為今天的案子也比較多所以必要時候可以再延長一兩分鐘我們首先先請司法院的高金之秘書長來進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2450.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2479.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
主席各位委員各位先進今天奉邀列席貴委員會就五位委員所提出以及民眾黨所凝聚的法官法還有刑事訴訟法相關草案代表司法院進行報告並被質詢請說明本院意見如下就法官法第四條修正草案修正司法院人事審議委員會之委員組成本院建議不予修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2481.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2502.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
司法獨立是由審判獨立和司法克責兩個大支柱所組成法治國家的司法行政應嚴格捍衛審判獨立並肩負確保審判己負之品質與效能故司法院院長以及各級法院院長是各法院法官的職務監督人 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2503.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2520.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
擔負運用司法行政手段監督所屬法官的行為舉止對不適任法官進行克責的法定責任人審會的審議事項及內容常涉及法官的敬業精神、辦案程序、裁判品質、案件控管、領導 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2522.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2534.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那個能力還有法官倫理規範等所以法官法賦予司法院院長經由指定具有法官身份的法院院長以及廳處長為人審會委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2538.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2562.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
才可以在人審會上就攸關法官的各項議案中 適切的完成人事權的責任實現法官自治與司法行政監督的制衡落實人民殷切期盼的司法課則現行人審會的法定成員為主席人 司法院院長指定11人其實在這個11人都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2563.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2583.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
三中省院長還有台灣高等法院院長以及具備法官身份的業務廳處長並沒有其他的人各級法院法官互選的法官代表是12人學者13人院長指定的人數是11法官互選的人數是12就可以看出他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2584.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2601.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我們在這邊彰顯了法官自治的核心價值同時最重要的是要保留司法行政監督的司法課程降低法官同僚間互相保護的隱性影響然後外部委員是殆盡司法透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2602.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2623.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
然後在109年至今人審會對於法官取得專業證照的審核還有法官從五年的候補到一年的次數到時任法官的審查還有監督法官風氣以及法官委事行為是進到了很大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2624.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2641.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
公效在109到現在有十件那個專業證書的申請是被否決然後候補法官身為事主法官到時任法官有七位是要到場陳述意見有四位是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2643.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2663.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
這個經驗精神不足而被否決還有對於法官委屍行為更有實踐送到監察院其他的五件是由司法院院長給予書面警告或口頭告誡這些意見都是司法院院長指定的委員在人選會審查時提出來的所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2664.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2691.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
司法院院長指定的委員是落實了對於不適任法官的把關達成司法課則的功能並沒有草案所稱司法院院長指定成員盲從貫徹院長意志的情形修正意見降低司法院院長的成員為5人相較於12名法官代表其人數比例明顯失衡違反權責相符之原則而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2692.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2715.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
嚴重弱化法官職務監督也就是人民所期待的司法課程那對於法官法90條部分本院尊重貴院以及法務部之意見關於刑事訴訟法修正部分大院這個外界所注意的對於抗高裁定強制處分的 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2716.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2745.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
抗告自為裁定部分這個涉及是否應賦予被告再抗告至第三審之機會不利於變更禁止原則下級審法院於本案息時後是不是可以變更原抗告法院的裁定等等重要事項而且強制處分裁定的抗告審是本於第一審法院裁定的事實審查是否符合法定規定重在快速決定如由抗告審自為裁定 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2745.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2768.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
急需再行傳喚被告重啟調查事實反而是延宕10日甚而促成被告逃逆的誘因所以是否規定應由抗告審字為裁定有進一步審慎討論的必要其餘本院尊重法務部的意見還有大院的決定謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2772.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2776.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
好 謝謝高秘書長那接下來我們請法務部的馮承馮長賜來進行報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2785.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2811.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天奉邀列席大院貴人會病案審查法官法及刑事訴訟法相關條文的修正草案僅代表本部列席報告並被質詢首先呢 感謝各位委員長期以來對我國刑事訴訟法 法治與健全司法體系的關心本部由衷地表示敬佩針對提案的意見呢 簡要報告如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2812.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2834.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
關於法官法的部分 針對檢察官人審會增設外部委員的提案本部認為現行的民選委員已經實質上過半了 也具備民主的正當性而且現行的遴選跟評鑒機制都有外部委員的深度參與監督的機制也已經有完備了 所以現階段尚無增設的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2835.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2860.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那關於刑事訴訟法的部分 在特殊強制處分救濟 也是第153條之10的部分對於擴大救濟的課題 納入司法警察的處分 本部是競表尊重那關於草案明確辯護人代理救濟權的性質 本部也是競表贊同那為針對刪除程序配套 也是第二項至第四項的部分 見請在座 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2861.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2882.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
另外在賦予辯護人偵查中搜索扣押的在場權的部分本部是見請慎酌因為搜索扣押具有高度的一個秘密性跟急迫性如果預先的去通知了辯護人那容易造成了受搜索人提前知悉 趁機去做一些滅證 勾串 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2883.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2894.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
逃亡嚴重的削弱證據保全的效能所以現行搜索扣押有嚴格的法律的保留而且有司法救濟證據排除這個部分足以保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2895.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2917.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那另外在積壓要件跟限制月件也就是第93條跟101條的部分在限制月件的部分若要求檢察官申請限制月件的時候必須揭示具體的事實跟必要證據這恐怕會造成了我們要保密卻必須先公開的這樣的一個矛盾現象反而增加了 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2918.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2933.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
滅證跟篡證的一個風險所以現行的這個續名理由已經有法院實質審查的機制就已經足夠了那再來這是羈押的要件部分有現行有事實主任勾篡之餘屬於預防性的一個規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2934.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2951.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
如果我們要把它改成有具體行為這樣子將導致偵查機關有時候會造成了做事證據被破壞之後才能救濟的現象會失之過晚那這個部分也見請再酌那另外在法院抗告自為裁定的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2952.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2974.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
對於抗告法院認為抗告有理由因自為裁定以縮減程序避免訴訟懸當的部分本部就是尊重大院跟司法院的一個決定那另外這個羈押申請第24小時計算的時間關於這個搜索扣押時禁止離去情形納入24小時計算點 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2975.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2999.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
本部認為這個情況跟拘提逮捕的強制性質強制處分的性質是有區別的所以如果把他強行的去併入這樣子會影響到偵查的一個時效這個部分也見請在座另外禁止夜間訊問擴及檢察官的部分因為偵查程序它具備即時性還有秘密性如果一律禁止檢察官在夜間的訊問 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3000.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3016.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
這個部分也恐怕造成了這共犯有勾串或逃逸的風險影響真實發現與國家刑法權的實現這個部分也見請在座其餘的部分呢 詳盡今天的書面報告以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3019.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3043.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
好 謝謝馮次長那麼機關代表報告完畢相關的書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄那麼現在我們就開始進行詢答那本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答的時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記我們就首先先請登記第一位的吳宗憲委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3053.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3079.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
謝謝主席 我們麻煩次長好 有請馮次長好 次長早安我先跟次長說明一下我們看到這一次賴慶德總統他在律師節的時候他說了一句話他說行政干預司法的時代已經過去了他講了這句話那今天我的質詢 我先破題第一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3080.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3099.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
先跟市長報告司法信任度目前在我國是很低的我想這個應該是跟鄰近國家比起來大家所謂的先進國家跟鄰近民主國家比起來其實我們的司法信任度是很低的所以再怎麼樣還是不宜往自己臉上貼金啦說都一切客觀公正什麼那這個我想我破題先提這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3100.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3122.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
第二個我剛剛所提到的總統在律師節曾經講過這句話那我記得民進黨在野的時候其實也是天天罵說什麼那個政府啊國民黨啊把檢察官當打手在做政治攻擊但是呢今天我看到的卻是我們的政府直接把政治的黑手直接伸進警察體系的最深處而且演都不演了 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3122.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3144.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
演都不演了 現在已經不是事實認定的問題 是整個體系被破壞的問題請教次長 這一次許錫祥代理檢察總長黃謀信正次兼任中選會委員請問這兩個嚴重嚴重嚴重破壞體制的人事案請問一下府院高層有沒有正式詢問過法務部的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3146.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3154.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
首先跟委員報告就是說我們的檢查總長的這個人事案事實上他沒有獲立法院的一個同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3155.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3176.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那我們這個是為了使最高檢察署選舉督導查查所以非常上述這些業務可以如常進行不影響人民的權利所以我們才本部是報請行政院陳請總統指派代理總長的人選所以這個部分先跟委員報告這個沒有所謂的這一個就是檢察體系為政治服務的事你們報請總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3179.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3187.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
指派代理是不是跟委員講我們的程序就是本部報請行政院請問一下貴部的法律依據為何 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3189.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3211.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
代理的法律依據為何 最高檢察署的處務規程的第十一條檢察總長應務不能執行職務時由其指定的主任檢察官或來謝謝次長來我先說第一個法院組織法明文規定這是法律未接的法院組織法明文規定初缺時由總統在三個月內提新的人選這是法院組織法規定第二個您剛剛說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3212.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3227.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那個儲物規程第11條但是儲物規程第11條過往是檢察總長還有檢察總長的時候他是檢察總長可能是出差或什麼不在的時候有某人代理吧過往有曾經檢察總長 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3229.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3254.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
有這樣處理嗎跟委員報告事實上檢查總長之前我印象中在陳聰明總長跟黃世民總長的時候都有請曾永夫主任檢察官好那我們又講到一個最重要的點了你講這樣沒有錯但我請教一下那過往我們如果出缺的時候我們的代理指派會依據資深與否但是為什麼這一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3255.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3272.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
會跳過我們最資深的呂主任檢察官那我們直接總統他指派這個許主任檢察官但是貴部又一點意見都沒有我想請教一下跟委員報告就是最高檢的一個代理 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3273.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3292.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
就是總長的代理這個部分不是以最資深來做判斷它是以最適合來做判斷最能夠把總長的所以你們是覺得李主任檢察官的資歷不好是不是也不是這麼說就是說因為在這樣的一個判斷之中這個是機關的一個權利就是誰最適合去做代理所以是 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3293.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3305.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
你們推薦給總統要由徐錫祥主任檢察官代理嗎程序上這個部分我還不清楚但是我們的制度上這個部分是由我們報告的所以這部分你不清楚嗎但是我必須在這邊說明一個點 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3307.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3325.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
我們對於儲物第11條我還是覺得那個的定義是在檢察總長還在的時候那代理的問題那如果你認為第11條可以用的話那過往的做法也是由最資深的主任檢察官來來做代理的動作但是這一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3326.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3345.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
卻跳過最資深的主任檢察官那今天如果我是法務部不是由我推薦的話那我一定會質疑總統你憑什麼把手伸進司法不依照過往的例子去指派最資深的主任檢察官來代理那如果今天是由貴部自己跟總統說我就是要徐主任檢察官的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3347.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3375.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
貴部也必須讓所有的檢察官知道呂主任檢察官他到底哪裡不適格對不對他最資深但是你們認為他不適格一定要由許主任檢察官來做的話你要讓全國檢一千四百名檢察官大家要服氣啊那因為這15我在15 20年的檢察官我很清楚這個東西就是不對就是不對勁嘛對啊而且而且他我跟市長報告因為市長以前是我的長官嘛我跟市長您報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3376.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3391.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
許議主任檢察官是被國會否決的人選欸那你今天等於總統硬幹我就要跟你國會對著做這個其實我們還叫民主國家嗎你連一點點尊重都不給了欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3392.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3408.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
先跟委員報告沒有不尊重大院的問題事實上因為總長的這個必須要經過立院的這個部分都一定會尊重立法院那是屬於一個總長的資格那現在我們談的是有關於代理代理是一個事務性還有一個暫時性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3409.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3436.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
當然市長我都尊重你這個說法但是喔你跟大家說民主國家國會否決的人選藉由行政的方式直接就指派他來代理我跟你講這個東西全民不會認同啦那你們一直這樣做一直這樣做我跟你說越做司法的信任度越低啊你除非就把大家都騙的嘛像現在用媒體來給大家洗腦告訴大家我們活在一個泡泡裡面大家好棒棒皇城之內一片祥和 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3436.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3453.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
你除非這樣騙人民嘛否則看久了以後我都覺得莫名其妙人民一票一票選出來的國會的代議制度所否決的人選但是被行政權直接指派國會不要沒關係我指派你那這樣子人民對司法的信任絕對繼續打一個大的問號 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3456.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3476.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
那我剛剛有說即便符合大家對於法律的解釋認為說檢察總長現在已經任期滿了沒有檢察總長的時候你可以用指派代理的方式但是依據過往的做法也是由最資深的主任檢察官出來代理你也沒有告訴我呂主任檢察官是哪裡不合格不適格 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3477.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3501.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
你也沒有講清楚就直接只派第二順位這個也是我在一線第一線我的這些檢察官的同學跟我講出表達不滿的地方他們非常不滿我的國會同事是告訴我不滿是說被否決了行政權還是要他我的檢察官同學告訴我的是明明有旅主任檢察官依照慣例可以派他為什麼要派第二位 次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3502.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3531.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
跟委員講就是說事實上來講第一這個代理是有先例而且他是一個暫時性的部分那總統提名新任的總長這部分都程序都還是要經過大院的一個同意權所以沒有繞過大院的問題那再來就是說您提到的這個資深那當然資深是一個選項但也不是所有資深上都一定是我們唯一的標準其實當事人的意願以及就是在請次長跟我們說到底選任許主任檢察官是 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3532.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3547.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
貴部給總統的建議還是總統自己清點的好不好因為我們這位總統非常喜歡清點人從官員到地方的一堆事情他都要清點我再講因為總長他帶領的是1400位檢察官他的任何一個動向 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3553.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3577.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
他其實是會讓整個檢察官的體系整個往不同的方向去走他是檢察官的大家長他不是部長部長他只有負責行政事務但是所有檢查偵辦案件你也很清楚依照法案組織法63條檢查一體制檢查總長就是我們所有檢察官的總指揮官他會帶著我們走向不同的方向那你以為基層的檢察官不擔心嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3578.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3595.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
最近的一連串的作為其實基層的檢察官告訴我一句話我們司法官身份會不會早晚被立法院剝奪掉我說我不敢保證因為現在整個手伸進檢察體系伸進成這樣我在這邊一直在保護大家的司法官屬性會不會到最後有一刻被拔掉我也不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3597.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3622.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
一連串的事情 我說真的 我自己也覺得很莫名其妙啦那我覺得最可怕的是 因為徐主任檢察官其實我們平常私交都很好但是他曾經擔任過國安局的副局長他等於有國安高層的背景那國安體系他講求的就是一個任務導向嘛他是對總統負責結果今天呢 我們檢察體系講求的是要對我們的法治跟程序正義跟全國人民負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3623.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3637.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
結果一個導向是向總統負責的人你要把他拉來要做到向法律以及全民負責其實這兩個東西完全不一樣所以當徐主任檢察官他曾經是國安高層也是政務次長這兩個東西一個向 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3640.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3658.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那個總統一個向行政院院長負責就你要突然把他拉來向全民跟法律制度負責其實這是我們很擔心的地方那我也再次說我們對我們今天對的是事情不是人這幾位我都很熟包括黃謀信他是我的老師但是今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3659.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3682.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
該怎麼樣公歸公私歸私我就必須點出這在制度上面很荒謬的地方那為什麼我一直講國安的問題我們現在很頭痛他完全不尊重立法院因為之前我們那個國安會發生共諜案的時候我們請國安會秘書長吳釗燮到國會來吳釗燮連理都不理多次請他來他連甩都不甩我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3683.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3702.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
連請假都不用請假 連理都不理所以一個充滿國安思維的人而且被立法院所否決掉的人選他卻變成是全國檢察官的最高長官拿著上方保健來 這是我們擔心的地方在這邊跟您說明一下然後我再跟您說另外一個問題 我已經點出非常多字 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3703.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3722.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
多次2024年總統選舉的時候那時候我們的檢查體系大量的用反滲透法選罷法到處抓人抓到大家嚇得半死結果呢超過八成的案子都是不起訴跟牽結剩下的20%不是已經判有罪大部分是還在審理中 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3723.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3742.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
所以今天就我們遇到一個非常荒謬的事情檢查體系跳進來跟大家一起搞政治一個東西八成以上的人千劫不起訴或判無罪那這樣子你不是在搞這種你就讓全台灣就是肅殺之氣嘛那你要知道一件事情喔其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3743.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3759.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
一個一張不起訴處分書你是救得了他法律上的清白但是你把他的人生都打爛了因為這些很多被告後來有到我們國會辦公室來他們講那一段涉案的期間每天怕得要死從早怕到晚他不知道什麼時候要被抓去關 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3760.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3780.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
什麼時候我們從民主國家走回專制獨裁的國家這是我擔心的如果今天執政黨要走向專制獨裁我們至少司法體系的人要努力捍衛我們國家的司法獨立啊但是如果司法體系也跟著這樣子搞我真的不知道我們台灣該何去何從這是我心裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3781.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3801.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
很擔心很擔心的一件事情那我剛又提到黃謀信次長黃謀信次長是我非常尊重 也是我的老師但是我們今天把一個正次放去獨立機關去做選務的委員 中選會的委員其實何其荒謬 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3802.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3818.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
結果徐錫強的事情也沒有人出來 櫃部也沒有抗議黃某信的事情 櫃部也沒有抗議我相信今天黃次長他也不想去這個位置我自己猜啦 但我沒有問過他因為他今天去這個等於是躺一個渾水嘛那你今天讓一個政治跑去獨立機關做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3820.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3848.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那個去當一個裁判者你今天檢察官是查緝犯罪的抓人抓賄選你跑去獨立機關去當裁判這個其實都很莫名其妙啦所以我還是覺得貴部該抗議的時候還是要抗議而不是永遠都是跟著執政黨在那邊繞來繞去啦那其實我們今天很多委員有談到檢審會像剛剛翁小林委員或剛剛我們陳昭志委都有提到這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3850.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3877.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
問題我還沒講一個你們的報告我有看過你們一直講說你們從這個人數上面啊那個八席是官派九席是民選所以從人數上面我們是公正客觀的但是我跟市長報告我就說我一線出來的嘛裡面是怎麼回事我們不是不知道啊裡面很多都是會還一二審要升遷的人嘛他們在等待升遷的人所以他們相對於很多基層檢察官其實他們是比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3878.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3886.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
比較會服從上面的想法那這也是基層很多檢察官一直以來的認定我自己在當檢察官的時候我也常常心裡會有這樣的疑問所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3889.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3912.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
今天很多檢察官來跟我談的是說他們覺得問題不是在於什麼八人九人不是在於法條而是在於目前的檢察體系就是整個高層在主導的文化高層叫你往東就往東高層叫你往西就往西常常跟法律制度是不一樣如果今天檢察體系真的獨立然後服從法律的話大家是可以啦但是你現在狀況不太 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3913.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3941.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
真的不太一樣了啦那你像我們現任的那個林達委員嘛那我學弟林達委員他就有講他的這次公開參選的理由就是說杜絕人事群帶避免政治干預改良深淺歷練其實他的參選的理由是這個顯然就是連他也對於我們目前檢審委員到底能不能夠杜絕人事群帶跟避免政治干預連他都有這種質疑啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3942.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3952.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
所以當貴部的報告說我們很公正我們客觀我們沒有不公的沒有公正性不足的狀況那你不是就在打臉這個領導委員嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3955.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3972.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
跟那個委員簡單簡單的回覆三個問題就是第一個問題就是有提到說我們就是徐錫祥以及黃謀信還有我們呂主任其實他們都是我們法律界非常學養跟我們的獨立性都非常強的一個長官事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3973.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3992.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
因為委員之前也在檢察官體系對這些人都很了解事實上他們的能力專業都是其實檢察官的訓練我們都會依法行事這個部分請委員參看他以前的過往他的現在所以在他們以前過往跟現在我講的是制度 對啦我講的是制度 不是人對 我先替他們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3993.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4019.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
避免誤解 就是他們的人的部分沒關係啦 那個次長不用 這兩位我剛剛已經說了 我跟他們私交多少甚至黃某信是我這一輩子非常尊重的一位老師那第二個部分就是有關於就不起訴牽結那個佔的比較多的比例事實上因為有告訴 或者有告發 或者一些情資來我們就必須要去做一個偵查嘛那當然這個部分上牽結跟不起訴處分也是一種我們查證以後認為說不構成犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4019.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4036.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
代表是也是一個責任的部分他跟一般的案件不一樣其實到選舉查查期間本來就會有很多的情資這個委員也能夠了解所以我們在這個部分上會很慎重的看待選舉這是第二個部分那也關於第三個部分就是關於我們的這個人審委員的部分事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4036.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4046.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
因為委員也知道檢勝委員都是由各地檢選署全部檢察官票選出來的那現在目前這一次是10席選了9席他是經過一個嚴格的選舉那之後我們人選的候選人也是這9位經過會選會他們去決定的委員應該跟我們都很清楚所以在這個部分上就是說其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4061.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4084.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
長官有高度主導這件事情好 那我就在這邊講不管怎麼樣今天代理檢查總長其實是一個很不聰明的做法為什麼檢查總長法律規定保障四年任期就是要讓他不被換掉不被政治手伸進去但是今天是代理代理的話他沒有那個身份的保障隨時會被換掉所以更容易被 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4085.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4113.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
政治給干預這我要向您說明的我想這句話全國的檢察官不會否認檢察總長真的很重要那我也在講您剛剛說的那個檢審會的部分如果今天齁民選委員過半就沒有行政高權主導這問題的話那為什麼建金檢改會出來主任會出來為主任檢察官臨選翻盤第二個二審蓄留門炮掌握在少數高階的長官手中他們都為了這個事情出來抗議過所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4114.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4136.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
我覺得今天我們的檢察會還是有很多需要我們在法治上面給他修正的地方那這一次你們說到民眾黨跟我們的翁昭偉他所提出來的17位委員裡面希望引進四位社會公正人士你說這個會侵害檢察官獨立權獨立性的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4139.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4153.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
但是今天17位裡面4位其實不到四分之一的外部學者這些人進來開會你覺得會影響到檢察官的獨立性但是我必須強調的第一個你們難道就不怕國安體系出聲 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4154.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4177.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
當過國安局副局長的政務官來當總長而造成我們檢查體系的不獨立嗎而且他還是被國會否決第二個你難道不怕我們法務部的正式兼任中選會的委員造成查會跟選務分不清嗎這兩個才是真正侵害檢查獨立性的最根本問題這兩個人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4180.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4192.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
都跟我很好這兩個人個性上都沒問題但我今天跟你談的是一個制度面的問題假總長用上面指派的代理這會出問題正次拿去獨立的機關中選會也會有嚴重的問題所以你們認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4197.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4222.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
外部的這些學者進來會侵害檢察官的獨立性但是對於我剛剛講的這兩個你們也覺得沒什麼所以我覺得這東西很矛盾更何況你們無視慣例你就直接跳過那個呂文忠主任你就直接跳去由徐錫祥接任這一點我也覺得其實會讓基層的檢察官覺得原來越靠近權力核心越容易升官那呂文忠主任他沒有跟著 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4224.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4245.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
這些政治人物一路這樣走過來 結果真正該由他來帶領全國檢察官的時候 他就被跳過其實我看到的是這樣 這也是第一線檢察官 非常多人跟我反映這件事情最後我想我要強調 當你們容許檢察總長可以用代理的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4246.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4269.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
當你容許政務官 政策可以坐進獨立機關來去當裁判者或者是你們容許這些側翼抹黑檢察界的這些專業前輩我想您知道我在講誰 最近他被抹黑得很慘你們就變對上唯唯諾諾 對下又抱著權力不放給他們這個時候 我覺得基層檢察官都會覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4272 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4300.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
是誰在抗拒改革 其實大家心裡會有一把尺那這種搞法會讓大家覺得原來啊 靠近權力核心的人大家才能夠生千生的快這等於是拆掉全國檢察官的尊嚴防線我今天用比較多時間以及比較生氣是因為不好意思我當過檢察官20年 這是我這一輩子做過最久的職務我一輩子也以當過檢察官為榮所以我非常的 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4302.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4321.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
氣憤侵害檢察官獨立性以及破壞檢察體系的這些政客們所以我今天講會比較重一點因為我自己看到雖然賴總統說行政干預司法的時代已經過去但在我看來行政實質控制司法的時代剛剛開始了這幾個都是過往看不到的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4322.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4349.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
結果今天一個一個發生那天我們談到黃謀信的事情連莊瑞雄委員也說奇怪 這個很怪怎麼可以這樣子尤其是一個司法官出身的檢察官出身的人好 那我還是希望法務部不管怎麼樣找回自己的尊嚴不要變成這些政客政治鬥爭的工具好 謝謝次長最後補充一句因為這個代理都是之前有先例第二 人選的部分委員也都知道他們都是很優秀的人選 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4350.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4363.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
所以在這個部分上 我們在代理期間 我們也會有外部的監督這一點請委員放心啦 謝謝好 我在談的是制度 好 謝謝謝謝胡委員好 請先回座那我們接下來請陳昭之委員發言謝謝主席 有請高祕書長好 有請高祕書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4385.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4410.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
秘書長知道 新北戈河案之所以引起全民的公憤不是 不僅只是因為大家心疼被害者還有家屬他們生命所遭受的這個痛苦那更令人無法接受是在整個一連串的司法過程當中整個過程基於因為加害者是年少對於他的保護等於一次又一次的撕裂了楊爸跟楊媽的心 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4411.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4429.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
因為他沒有成年所以特別的個資保護很多案件的細節連楊爸楊媽他都不知道發生了什麼事情可是楊爸楊媽的個資卻又直接透過法院系統直接洩漏給兇手知道他知道名字知道地址 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4431.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4459.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
另外法官為了所謂的修復式的司法竟然問被害家屬說你願不願意讓兇手來孝順你們這麼荒謬的司法人民能不憤怒嗎祕書長最近我要告訴你就是說在YouTube上有一個頻道叫做謎案追蹤他做了一整集的那個新北戈河案的這個影集影片而且在當中他公布了公布了兇手的照片跟個資短短三個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4461.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4482.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
有450萬人次去點閱那在Thread上面也有一個中國的網友他公布的是兇手的個資而且說台灣的法律管不到他但是超過13萬個網友去點讚秘書長我們當然絕對是不贊成不鼓勵這個明翠市的公審但是所以造成這個現象我認為是荒謬的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4486.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4497.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
司法制度讓人民無法信任所以人民不信任司法所以請你看右邊他們只好尋求自己去自求多福尋找司法私人司法正義 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4499.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4516.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
秘書長請問你對這件事有什麼看法請你簡短回答謝謝關於那個加害少年那個部分那個確定不是從我們法院出去的那那個那個範圍我沒辦法回應那關於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4517.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4543.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
楊爸楊媽他的資料會出去真的很抱歉那是在我們民事案件的判決裁定裡面因為當事人他是原告他是被害人所以就寫了出來那關於這個你說抱歉的意思是什麼是不應該給還是說抱歉就是要得給不是不是照理說他那個應該要公告那是因為裁定公告的問題那時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4545.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4569.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
妳就那個加害者後來對 妳出來後我找妳所以說對於採定公告的那個地方的遮掩我們沒有見到妳剛剛說IP不在境內啦但是我要讓妳知道妳不能說我管不到 我管不著這個民意案追蹤好像不是在可能是在境內喔這麼多人去回應妳要思考的是為什麼這麼多人做這種事情秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4571.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4574.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
上個月本黨團召開這個邵氏法修法的公聽會我們就把楊爸楊媽請到現場戴口罩的那一對夫妻就是我們希望對於邵氏法的修法司法院絕對不要關在這個巨塔裡面象牙塔裡面閉門造局啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4587.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4604.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
你要聽聽親身經歷這個痛苦的受害者家屬的心聲當然在場還有還想陪你長大聯盟就其他的受害的這個家屬好像很多這個主張正義的人在現場他們主要的訴求有三點那我想聽你稍後表達你的看法第一個提高假釋門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4606.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4618.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
再來是限縮前科的塗銷現在是一律三年就塗銷光光然後保留重罪死刑因為很多國家就開始檢討這個肇事法部分我們這幾個方向祕書長你們支持嗎關於提高假釋門檻限縮前科 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4623.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4644.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我們草案已經出來我們5月22號就要院會要討論就會通過以後我們就會送會所以這兩項你們有已經做了那第三項呢關於重罪死刑這部分在目前是違反重罪對對對是違反就少年不違反公約當然那個在澳洲他們是有在討論這一塊這也有利用我們討論的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4647.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4674.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
我現在先確認一下 你說在已經把這個你們修法已經送到司法院 已經送到行政院了嗎還在司法院嗎你知道我那個公聽會 三月舉行公聽會 邵氏廳廳長承諾四月底就要把這個版本送到行政院了他跳票啦跳票啦因為我們四月多就完成了 可是我們要完備他 還要請 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4675.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4692.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
大家來 法官們共同來 五月二十號一定會出來所以現在還在 還離不開司法院就對了五月二十號一定離開啦更狂說要送到行政院 送到立法院來那我們會競速盡快 今年做得到嗎可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4693.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4720.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
這件全民公憤的事情已經延續很久了民主黨2025年9月24號司法院一族公告引起社會嘩然當初法院組織法修法立法院的原意是要提供法院一個彈性就涉及重大公共利益或是社會主義的案件對於事實審的部分得依職權裁定用適當的方法去實施公開播送那執法的授權當然是要依照母法的立法原意來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4722.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4738.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那什麼叫公開播送呢 什麼叫delay life呢請問 我想請問你喔 當時立法 修法的原意是有同一法院要先錄製整個法庭程序的審判狀況而且拖到整個審查程序都結束後 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4739.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4758.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
才播送嗎?當初是這樣講的嗎?就這個回答是這樣嗎?跟委員當時我雖然沒有參與可是就整個立法的過程的記錄應該是要錄影完畢因為最重要法規裡面那個關係人可以申請變聲變音這勢必無法在法庭之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4758.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4773.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
我給你舉很多例子你的意思就是說你們的解讀是這樣你們自己解讀司法院10月送來立法院報告根本就是扭曲公開播送的意思同樣的字眼為什麼在限訴法當中憲法法庭可以同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4774.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4791.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
即時直播 而你高等法院 你地方法院都做不到 為什麼因為那是法律審 而且他播送的方 完全不一樣喔沒有 我們就是在法 法寫得很清楚 直播本來就是說法律審是原則公開嘛 那另外才這個就是說 就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4793.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4815.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
你意外才不公開那但是這個已經進入我剛剛你講的這個事實審的部分是原則不公開遇到重大案件已經有條件了吧你不要再跟我談另一個部分就是說你現在的解讀你人家做得到憲法法庭做得到你高層法院法庭做不到啊沒有啊公開播送因為變聲變音我們怎麼可能在現場就直播呢變聲變音一定是錄製後的後製 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4818.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4840.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
等一下我來告訴你為什麼你這個解讀我完全不接受司法院訂立的辦法就胡扯三讀通過以後我們給了司法院整整三個月的時間去設定這個訂定授權的執法結果你們利用辦法來架控立法院三讀通過的這個母法本來就是一個被視為一個美好的司法改革進步的陽光法案淪為法院影片剪輯比賽的笑柄 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4842.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4867.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
也提供了側翼可以用可笑的授權法授權辦法來做來為執政黨洗地請問全世界實施法庭直播的國家有哪一國的法律司法院需要這樣剪輯影片呢才放上錄影檔的你知道哪些國家有執行法庭直播嗎我們是完整播放我們沒有剪接只有除非當事人是你等一下再聽你知道有哪些國家有執行這個法庭直播嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4869.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4887.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
當然有很多國家有妳隨便講幾個國家印度 中國連中國都有啦美加澳紐帶著連中國都法定直播我說還有拍攝的方式竟然全程對著旁聽者的臉究竟是哪位法官在主持會議有這麼見不得人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4889.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4907.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
就在他是一個角度的播我們沒有特定的沒有 秘書長這一項當初司法院就一直反對啦反對的理由大家都心知肚明七成民意支持的這個法輪直播通過以後讓法輪直播有機會讓司法院做出改革你們卻寧可置地劃線把自己置之高閣秘書長這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4909.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4929.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那我請問你 我們現在我們現在的這個 為什麼在國會改革的部分為什麼你跟我現在就可以即時直播呢這個有問題嗎 需要再剪輯嗎 需要整個結束嗎現在全國人民在看你我的這個 我們的巡檔沒辦法 法官法你規定當事人可以申請變身我們已經三讀通過的新法這是一定要做到的啊秘書長 今天你對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4938.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4953.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
立法院的主張的做法是全程直播跟事後你們寫的理由你看看這一張你們寫的理由法庭錄影延後播出是為了避免被任意剪輯散佈局二次濫用我想請教你 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4954.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4969.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
全程直播跟這個會被下載剪輯任用有什麼關係難道你現在這個閹割版你這個剪輯過的版難道就沒有人用難道就沒有人被惡意剪輯嗎你什麼狀況都有人惡意剪輯啊我們是完整版我們絕對沒有剪輯 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4970.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4983.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
還有人試圖醜化不是你們 你一擔心的東西都在做 都別人在做試圖醜化法庭旁聽人還有嘲笑當事人的辯護律師這都看到啦 影片大家都看到啦所以你不能用這個理由所以你不能用這個理由說我們為什麼不這麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4988.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5016.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
立法院問證過程嘛現在你我就這樣哪一場委會或院會的推議是由立法院檢擊過的 安過過的才慢慢吞吞的放上這個全民檢視2018年開始議事直播到現在即將邁入第九年代表我們國家是有能力有技術做得到全程即時轉播現在的問題是司法院你做不做嘛你肯不肯做嘛立法院做得到你肯不肯做嘛那只要不要求變聲變音當然有可能那最重要一定要那個現場即時直播 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5019.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5049.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
當事人如果要申請變身變硬或者甚至要馬賽克這怎麼辦因為事實上牽涉太多人了秘書長裡面的法條都寫清楚了當事人申請經過職權一定可以公開直播你們現在秀出來的樣子沒有你們秀出來的樣子法律也規定他可以申請變身變硬羞辱旁聽者看不到法官然後也羞辱辯護律師然後後來那個對反方的另外一方的律師還被頒獎包獎公播必然會被使用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5049.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5068.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
所以我們一定要在...秘書長 國會進行了這麼多年你跟我說你們做起來有問題限數法庭說可以的 你們認為法院都做不到法律規定要變聲變音這是法律要規定變聲變音不怪 現在大家怕你司法院的分數 司法分數都是三全三四十分 死當到不行啊不會啦 沒有死當 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5069.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5095.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
有啊,你去做,不然你做個民調我來看看好,有,我們市法院有民調,我再送給委員參考我希望你的民調是公正,有方法學也有各種好,我來看你們自己做的民調秘書長,今天排審的刑事疏漏,我剛剛也聽到你說了我們本來是希望能夠禁止某些檢測方案無限抗告、濫權羈押法官法就是剛剛每個委員都提到的我們希望這個人事審議委員會就有多元代表性公正性 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5096.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5115.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那你一開始報告的時候就覺得不以為然啊剛剛這個吳宗憲委員歐偉業一直在強調你們都不以為然啊所以你現在再說一次你們司法院的態度是不願意改變的嗎不改變現況對嗎如果你要達到司法課則我建議不要改變但是外部委員要增加我尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5116.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5138.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
這個可是必須對於法官代表人民旁聽有限的情況下我們都看到很多這個檢察官如何濫用制度無限抗告濫權計壓人取購辦案不看證據去揣摩商議看顏色辦案靠政治案來升官靠政治案來升官那個委員妳講的是檢方我沒辦法替他代言 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5140.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5150.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
整個羈押過程法官法院某些也很配合啊也很配合我看他很無奈他很無奈可是他還是配合啊跟委員報告我不相信有法官會配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5151.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5179.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
這我可以跟你用生命保證我們也都相信醫師是救人啊但是醫師有狼醫的意思啊因為我現在開始在偷拍這個好 我們都願意相信那是我們相信人 我們願意做但是我們的制度上就是要防病嘛不然今天 我相信他們都是好人我們都不用法律 除了法律都撤掉啊我們相信每個人都做好事啊不會有人做壞事啊沒有 在人選會上面這個比例是要達成 反而是保障人民的司法課程這非常非常重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5180.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5200.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
秘書長我今天提的從少事法從整個法庭直播我現在淪為笑柄你們好好再去看一下原立法的原意然後看看你們現在定的辦法看看能不能對人民交代你們做也許我們要請別人做我們來看看大家對台灣對司法的評分如何謝謝秘書長 謝謝主席謝謝陳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5208.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5227.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
好 接下來我們有請林倩琦委員發言好 謝謝我們翁昭偉主席請法務部 今天是我們次長 馮次長好 有請馮次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5238.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5254.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
本席 今天一開始還是要針對檢察總長人事同意權的部分來跟您做一個討論跟溝通這次檢察總長的同意權沒有通過但是檢察總長整個職務代理的問題其實也引起各界的話欄 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5256.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5283.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那這次呢因為檢察總長沒有獲得立法院的這個同意基本上應該是懸缺的可是依照這個法院組織法總統必須應該在三個月再向立法院再來提出檢察總長的人選這是法律明定的一個程序那也反映檢察總長應該是要能夠經過民意機關的這個同意取得更高正當性的一個檢查體系的最高職位我想這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5284.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5312.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
制度面那我相信剛才那個吳宗憲委員其實自始至終他在質詢的時候一直堅持在制度面我們還是希望能夠了解相關單位在制度面的一個態度所以本席這邊要請教次長那第一個部分就是說法務部是不是已經就後續檢查總長的提名時程跟總統府還有行政院來做溝通那再提名是不是已經有了明確的一個作業方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5313.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5329.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
那麼第二個部分是在新任檢察總長任命前呢由最高主任檢察官來代理檢察總長那這個代理呢究竟會是過渡還是長期喔那麼依照這個最高檢察署 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5329.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5350.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
這一個處務的一個規程那檢察總長是因事不能執行職務時可以指定主任檢察官或檢察官來代行職務並呈報法務部但現在的情形是沒有被立法院同意的提名人選那基本上應該實質上正式的總長是沒有產生的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5351.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5369.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
所以法務部是不是認為這個可以這樣無限期的一個被否決的人選來代行檢查總長的一個職權我想這個各界都有這樣的一個疑慮所以是不是您先就剛才本席這邊所講的先跟本席做一個回應好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5369.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5385.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
是謝謝委員那有關於說這個總長的人事案沒有獲得立法院的這個同意但是因為我們最高檢他的業務裡面也不能停擺所以事實上在以往的時候也有一些慣例 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5386.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5415.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
就是有一些例子就比方說當時在陳宗明總長還有黃世民總長他們後來就是說那一段空缺的時候我們也分別找了這一個曾永夫的主任檢察官跟臨街的主任檢察官來做代理所以這代理這個是有有潛力的是是是代理上有這個潛力但本席這邊這兩個主要的問題就是說那你們現在在再提名的這樣一個程序上是不是已經啟動然後跟總統府還有行政院來做溝通還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5416.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5427.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
究竟這樣代理對你們來講是一個過度還是長期呢跟委員講就是說我們目前處理的就是說他現在的這個代理的部分他的一個必要性就是因為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5428.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5455.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
他這個我剛剛有提到就是說事實上他有選舉啊還有這個上就是說非常上訴這些東西所以我們這個代理制度是基於一個短期性跟事務性的一個代理所以說外界上就是說會說為什麼說我們今天會不會有疑慮說今天是立法院我們跳過沒有這回事因為事實上這個同意權本來都在大院嘛我們也會尊重我們那個沒有同意的結果實質上還是進行沒有同意的一個作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5456.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5482.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
沒有委員並沒有這個說今天這個我們的人選有什麼不妥嗎剛剛吳宗憲委員也說了我們的原選還是回到本席的這個問題所以接下來你們在這個程序上是不是已經開始啟動了這個在提名的相關的這個作業然後有沒有跟總統府還有行政院來溝通那第二部分你剛才講的態度應該是過度應該是過度如果本席聽起來沒有錯那所以時程上你們有沒有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5483.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5486.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
想法跟概念呢可以先回答本席第一個問題嗎我們這個就是說檢察總長這個是屬於總統的職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5491.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5518.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那所以說再來就是說有關於代理的這個部分我們挑選的當然就是說今天這個目前核定下來的這個徐總長他也是極為優秀的人選嘛也是具有專業性目前我們對於人選的這個專業性不是我們今天討論的一個重點其實本期還是呼應剛才吳宗憲委員一直講的制度那這個制度是不是可以被人民所信任那這個制度是不是依照他的整個制衡來走這個是我們最關心的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5519.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5548.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我們要跟委員報告對 本席知道你說這是總統的職權啦但是就法務部來講那你們有沒有一個相關的準備跟程序的一個啟動然後能夠主動的來跟政府行政院這邊來溝通呢就是我們任何的一個這樣提出來的人選到最後也是要經過大院這邊來行使同意權嘛那我們這部分的話就是說到底後續的狀況是怎麼樣那法務部這邊到時候我們如果推出有人選或者是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5549.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5574.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
我們現在這個部分就這個是由總統這邊總統的職權我們這邊我們不再做預先的說明所以本席強調的就是這個制度面那麼為什麼檢察總長需要國會來同意就是避免檢查體系完全受到任命權的一個單方的一個影響所以藉由同意權來引進民主的制衡來提升檢察總長來指揮全國 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5576.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5590.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
檢察官的一個正當性我想這是制度最需要去鋪陳的那如果一個沒有獲得立法院同意的人他長期來代理檢察總長我想這個部分會引起各界的疑慮所以本席再請教那如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5590.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5605.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
代理期間遇到重大的政治敏感案件還有重大的國安案件或高爭議的司法案件那麼法務部如何確保檢查體系不會因為代理總長的所謂正當性不足而進一步傷害司法的公信力 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5606.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5627.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那您的看法呢?事實上就是我們的這個我剛剛講嘛我們的檢察官他都具備專業性而且獨立性事實上來講就是說大院他今天是沒有同意我們那個徐代理總長的一個他的一個資格但這個資格只是說他沒有這四年的一個保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5628.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5656.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那不代表大院就認為說這樣的一個我們的這個人選是屬於會將來會在這件事情上有疑慮的那我們今天這樣的一個代理的一個人選我這邊還是強調一下本席這邊一直談的是制度陳錫剛才吳宗憲委員的其實他對制度面也是很重視的那本席這邊談的還是制度那對於這個專業的人我也是跟委員談的是制度因為我們的制度就是說總長是需要同意權 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5657.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5673.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
那至於代理的話,是以機關上面來講最適合代理的人來做這件事?其實這邊做一個提醒檢查中障是全國檢查相關體系的核心那麼關係到您剛才其實也講的非常上述檢警檢查一體跟司法的一個信任 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5674.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5702.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
代理制度雖然有它的必要但是呢只能解決短期的一個空窗本席希望你們在後續重新提名的作業進度要積極並且要溝通尤其是人事的僵局不能讓制度的底線被模糊好不好這是本席針對這個議題做的一個提醒那你一直在講人本席對於人這個部分沒有太多的一個講法但是制度還是希望能夠在制度面我想我們應該有一個尊重的共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5702.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5730.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
是啦 就委員我為什麼一直要 你說一直在講人其實我說真的 我們也要替他們我們這個可能這個議題我相信剛剛吳委員這邊講了很多那我們如果聽得懂我們就可以繼續下去那如果聽不懂我們還是會繼續的在不同的一個平行線沒有辦法溝通嘛好 第二個部分本期在這邊要談的一個最近很重要的一個案例我想這個詐欺是現在全國性也已經變成國安的一個問題但是這個詐欺其實在最近有個個案涉及的司法正當性 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5731.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5749.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那也就是中華民國的刑事審判權的一個界線似乎會被政治語言來作為一個抗辯的這個工具那麼最近有一個境外的詐欺案件那被告被指控在菲律賓成立了詐騙公司然後他騙取的是大陸地區的人民財產結果辯護人當場當庭來主張總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5754.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5769.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
多次宣稱中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬且中華民國的統治權僅限於台澎金馬總統講的所以法院對此類的案件沒有審判權那他竟然他的這個訴求說那應該不予審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5772.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5787.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
但是呢 本席想就法務部的立場做一個了解因為現行台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例的第二條大陸地區是指台灣地區以外中華民國領土那麼第75條也明定在大陸地區犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5787.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5810.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
在大陸地區曾經受刑罰仍得依法來處斷那麼本席請教一下這個次長那麼你們是不是認為我們在刑事審判權在涉及大陸地區的被害人犯罪結果如果是在大陸地區或犯罪行為跟大陸地區高度連結的案件中是不是應該依兩岸人民關係條例以及刑法體系來加以判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5811.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5840.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
那麼第二個部分是那麼法務部是不是會針對兩岸的跨境詐欺案件提出明確的指引避免未來犯罪集團把整個犯罪鏈切成境外行為地大陸被害人台灣金流成台灣或台灣成員那再反過來主張說那麼我們的法院無權來審理那這個是會是一件很可怕的事情那麼是不是先聽聽您的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5841.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5870.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
跟委員報告我們國家的刑法第三條規定本法是在中華民國領域內犯罪者適用之在中華民國領域外之中華民國船艦航空器內犯罪以中華民國的領域內犯罪那所以事實上目前的兩岸的一個詐欺的這個部分其實警方的目前的部分他們是刑事局跟對岸的這個都還是有保持著一個相當所以那現在在法院裡面出現了這樣一個案例所以那法務部的態度呢是 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5871.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5879.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
阿部的態度當然我們對於這個我們的這個詐欺案件的部分我們是都我們的這個案件是從來是認為說這樣犯罪是不被允許的 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5880.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5897.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
所以本席在這邊提醒這個犯罪鏈如果被切割然後成為法院的一種抗辯的訴求這是一個蠻嚴重的事情所以本席要指出的是當中華民國的總統在政治宣示上不斷歪曲中華民國的主權敘事把中華民國的主權跟治權講得越來越窄 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5902.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5928.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
甚至還被辯護人拿來在法庭上主張我國法院沒有審判權這已經不是一個政治口號很抽象而已已經實際進入了一個司法攻防最後甚至影響跨境犯罪的一個追訴那本席認為這非常嚴重所以政府不能單方面說要打擊跨境詐欺保護人民的財產安全又因為最高領導人的這個模糊的一個講法就是自我限縮的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5929.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5952.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
結果被犯罪嫌疑人拿來挑戰中華民國法院審判權這個是非常嚴重的一個事情我覺得法務部要正視這件事情跟委員報告總統講的兩國互不隸屬但是他講了總統這樣講結果被拿來在法院上這個抗辯這個是蠻嚴重的一個事情這是總統對於主權的一個我們的一個堅持跟態度但至於說在法庭上辯護的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5954.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5976.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
誰要提出什麼樣的一個辯論這個方式那個是那個人的一個這個他訴訟上的一個權利所以本席提出來這樣一個案件那這個請法務部應該先通常很多的個案他就可能會變成一些通案所以法務部應該開始注意這樣子的議題好嗎好謝謝那麼接下來我們請司法院秘書長那麼高秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5988.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6005.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
本席前面有談了檢查體系跟刑事司法權制度的正當性最重要的就是要被人民所信任每一位當事人在程序中能不能真正理解這點很重要所以本席最後要提醒司法院的通譯制度尤其是原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6006.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6030.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
司法同意的一個改善的進度這個其實本席在過去也提到過那麼2024年監察院的報告其實也有指出我相信本席先前的一個質詢你們可能有一些記錄原住民族共有16族42種方言但是原住民族的司法同意很明顯不足雖然在本席上次這個質詢完之後呢那麼司法院有說我們可能增加了一兩種的這個族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6032.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6053.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
但是其實今年在國家人權博物館也還是有一些提醒法院目前也只有11種語別跟16組還是有明顯的一個很大的落差監察院也提醒同意的語別人數不足也會使特定族群在司法的程序中屬於弱勢甚至影響公平審判跟防禦權 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6054.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6078.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
所以在國家人權委員會今年4月再指出司法同意的結構性問題本席這邊提醒一下第一包括我們剛剛所講的同意人力不足第二報酬偏低保障也不足甚至常常在同意還會連續工作很長的時間可能24小時有的時候到場以後才發現還要協助辨認大體等等的這樣一個工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6079.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6105.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
那看起來是語別不足但是整個制度的支撐可以再更強勁一點所以在第一個部分是那麼本席想要請教的是在2026年法院跟檢察署目前建制多少原住民族司法的通譯語別那麼相較於2024年的是一種那麼檢察署的七種那目前增加了多少那是不是族語跟方言別有沒有可用的司法通譯 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6106.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6124.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那第二個部分是針對語別不足的問題那司法院跟法務部目前有沒有策進的一個方向是不是跟原民會跟這個族語人才資料庫還有地方的原民體系合作然後建立比較穩定的一個通譯招募然後培訓跟認證的一個制度那最後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6125.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6151.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
就是除了人數跟語別那同意的品質和權益也很重要那目前呢報酬低責任重那保障不足就很難長期的進行這樣一個穩定的流採那目前是不是有檢討同意的這個報酬還有派案的制度教育訓練等等一些工作保障的這個部分是不是可以請秘書長就本席所講的三點做一個回應感謝委員注意這個問題我想這個特別同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6154.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6174.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
跟委員報告我在民國93年特約同意是我在司法行政廳設立的我們司法院當然我們不到16組可是我們已經現在有13組語言那誠如委員說的特約同意的品質的提升是每年都在促進的這是永遠要增進的 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6174.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6192.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
尤其在法庭審判語言的了解還有同意他的傳譯的內容的正確都是我們永遠永遠在加強剛剛委員也提到這些這個語言從這些族群從哪來我們也跟原民會 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6193.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6216.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
跟相關機構我們也請他們能夠提供我們這些人才因為人才庫的建立才能夠讓各法院能夠很順利真的跟委員報告一定要在審判中讓他能夠很順利的請到程度很高的特約同意來為我們這個人民服務以上先簡單跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6219.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6236.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
謝謝那我這邊提到的這個有關於這個相關的這個報酬我們也在研議這一定要提高真的我們必須說在法院很多報酬都不夠高這個吸引力一定會降低所以我們這個也是我們在努力的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6237.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6255.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
好謝謝所以本席這樣的提醒也希望你們在演繹的這個部分能夠特別注意一下這個通譯的這個問題最後還是一個提醒不僅是您講的就是說這個族語的品質是需要去做一個處理那很重要一點就是說在原住民在國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6255.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6278.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
就整個中華民國還沒有成立的時候它就已經在台灣所以這個文化上跟歷史脈絡上的一個議題它其實也關係到我們在法庭上的一個語言的傳譯所以我想整體在司法的體系下應該就這個部分還是要有長期的一個教育培訓就像您講的要一直持續跟繼續非常謝謝委員好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6282.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6285.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
謝謝林前期委員那接下來我們先請謝龍介委員發言嗨 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6309.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6317.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
主席我請鄭水鴻比順請出座好請馮次長你好說聽話我請教你 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6338.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6348.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我們總統來主席我們立法院同意最高檢察署這個檢察總長比提名人這個齊錫雄這個案件經過立法院報告之後有什麼法務部要去聽報給總統來指定比報告人 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6369.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6375.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
來做代理的檢測中段為什麼為什麼這個時候要有一個代理的中段為什麼不是說第三個月來趕快再提名為什麼跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6384.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6407.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
就是說本部尊重立法院的職權所以說立法院認為說這個需要同意權所以沒有過但是因為我們的最高的檢察署葉康奎他的工作裡面他負責了非常上述還有大法官的一個法庭的程序那如果你懸缺 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6409.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6432.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
總長在5月8號他就離職就已經現在離職了嘛你現在如果最高檢沒有人代理的話他這些事情救濟這些事情重要的事情都沒有人做一個代理的話那整個會最高檢的這個狀況就會停擺啊所以必須要有人代理要代理我告訴你我們放映的組織法66條第4項就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6436.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6441.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
檢測中長若是因果出虧,那這裡是沒辦法始終總統要在三個月來重新提出人選嘛,是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6447.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6469.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
阿為什麼要用代理?委員我們的代理是一個事務性跟暫時性阿他沒有的那一天就該有人代理阿這本來就是行政責任上必須要有的阿那也可以想像一個機關像檢察長他如果生病阿你現在的意思就是要繼續代理就對了不是阿現在的意思就是說您剛剛提的是說要繼續代理或是譬如說你有要再提名一個來這樣我可以提兩次阿如果沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6478.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6493.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
實地定點要拖下去這我可以說全民沒辦法接受啊跟委員報告啊 代理的就插心不明啊做一個代理總長也很漏氣代理的你檢察總長 你是檢察總長還是代理檢察總長還是要代外顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6497.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6526.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
委員沒有漏不漏氣的問題齁 要代外顧啊這不是有沒有漏氣的問題 要代外顧啦我給你報告嘛 你讓我說一下 要代外顧啊今天檢察總長他沒有獲立法院的一個同意他這個是屬於任命程序沒有完成他不是所謂法院組織法第66條第4項講的因故出缺在法律上這概念要先跟委員做一個報告那再來第二點就是說 啊沒有一條一條你說我聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6527.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6544.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我剛才說啊 我們現在講的是說 他今天的這屬於任命未完成跟我們法院組織法第66條第4項的因故出缺是不一樣的概念那我再跟您報告說 您剛剛講的 要不要代理一定要代理啊 沒代理怎麼行呢那不是因故出缺不是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6545.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6565.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
沒有啦,我們跟委員報告,你像任何一個機關裡面的首長,過去覺得代理過?有啊!過去覺得代理過?有啊!怎麼代理的?我跟委員報告,我們的代理裡面,代理總長體體非常上述的例子,以前前代理總長曾永富跟林接德,在99年1月26號到99年1月...你他有什麼條例來代理的? |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6569.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6592.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
跟委員報告我們的這個最高檢的這個就是儲物規程的第11條這個部分就有規定啊這個是屬於說最高檢他的政務跟行政程序要依據這個儲物規程來處理維持最高檢的一個功能運作跟日常的事務嘛不可以說不代理啊不代理的話這個沒辦法做以前都是這樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6594.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6604.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
你說 依照最高檢察署 署名規定第十一條嗎?是這第十一條是怎樣?是怎樣?你剛才黏黏的 這樣鑽下去就過了不是這樣啦 第十一條我告訴你啦檢察總長啦 因訴過 不能執行任務及時有機 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6620.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6639.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
指定 主任檢察官 實際是檢察官代行節目 並定報發布報我問你來 他說檢察總長因故不能執行職務時由其指定主任檢察官或檢察官代行職務 這個旗是什麼人 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6641.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6649.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
跟委員報告那是檢測中調基庭三名人主任檢測官起來代行執務你現在跟我說用這條變總統基庭你要害老青庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6658.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6668.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
今天應該是部長來還是你來的跟委員報告 其實您的那個說法上就是說跟我們的這個做法上的最大的說法這規定就是這樣啊是啊 第一個這是有潛力可循的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6674.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6685.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
你剛才跟我說之前啦 曾永福總長代理的時候也是代理啊 林鄭月娥總長代理的時候也是代理啊你現在給我解釋一下 你跟我說曾永福那時候啦 不然你歡迎同意啦 對不對我們跟委員報告齁 我要跟委員報告齁 我要跟委員報告齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6694.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6713.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
你還能夠理解說一個機關上他不能群龍無首啊因為正常的事務功能還是要運作啊但人民的一個救濟能夠輕視嗎委員不行啦你現在本地啊法律沒要修啊你現在總要用古法要拿澳啊再來怪不得他怪社會不是這樣你現在就是要害他總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6718.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6731.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
含總統一不宜啦 含一張小規約就不要掛了這樣你不是要害總統 叫你說要報保證哪有那個去報總統 總統就沒有這個權利啊他叫你的金額 你這第十一條 總統沒有這個權利喔是檢察總統才有這個權利喔好來 如果叫你現在說的話 我現在說給你聽啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6746.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6772.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我們司法院議員啦 司法院議員 組織法第七條 第五項他規定什麼 司法院議長 副院長 同時出席那麼由總統就代法官 制定一個人 代理院長在代理的期間 到總統提名解任者經立法院 同時總統任命立志 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6775.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6786.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
人家所謂的就是米霧丟霧先把法律收起來放所以總統就可以製定大法官大理 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6787.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6795.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
甘參議員也一樣啦甘參議員人也修法啦甘參議員組織法第六條第2項甘參議員要出國要訪問到台立在台立的期間到總統提名假臨時將立法院董議一日總統臨時開始到台立都依法有股啊你發不報你依法無股啊你放在茶館裡面你現在還在這裡大聲罵我 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6816.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6829.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
沒有大小聲喔 委員我們很尊敬你喔其實我在跟你說的就是阿我就說了 你說了就沒得你現在還跟我說你這樣嘛 你要跟我說一下嘛你總統就沒有權利之定啊不是這樣的我告訴你這是你補還是補到補來 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6833.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6850.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
跟委員報告齁這件事補充知道不知道啦 要停補之前跟委員報告齁 讓我說一下嘛齁跟委員報告就是說其實我們的這個補充很厲害啦 你現在跟我說你就是針對我自己問的問題跟我說嘛我有跟那個委員報告啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6850.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6866.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
就是我們今天第一我們尊重大院的一個同意權嘛那大院如果認為徐代理總長不適合當就是沒有那個總長的一個同意的話這個部分我們也再來如果有任何人要當總長都要經過大院的同意嘛這第一點第二點我要跟委員講的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6868.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6879.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
機關一日不可無阻啦所以代理是必然的我說給你聽啦我沒有反對代理啦可以代理啦但是這個代理不是總統基點的你聽到沒有沒有人好一條法律誰說總統可以基點嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6884.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6896.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
是要由檢察總長 指定主任檢察官 讓檢察官代行這部 不是代理喔你說的11條是代行這部喔 不是代理總長喔現在的檢察總長他已經認滿了嘛你聽到沒有 認滿就變成什麼 這是法務部裡面 完全跟總統不協 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6909.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6917.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
你補充資金就好啊 為什麼 補充就是要說他發不股 他不敢 所以讓我向總統答我啊 你們站在一起 請他答 我當然要請他講兩句話啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6926.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6940.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
不是這樣的不是這樣不是啊現在進行到今天就是這樣啊我已經講得很清楚了嘛就是委員如果你能夠你剛才跟我說的是不是用這十一條這條依附十一條所以你才可以派遲適雄來帶你檢查中調跟委員報告就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6944.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6952.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
80一條就完全沒有總統的權威了總統賺一點錢你都沒有喔為甚麼你要報給總統為什麼不可以發布部長直接派人代理 代理裡面還有總統代理補來就能處理了呢總長的部分這就是總統的職權嘛那是要臨命 上來就歡迎 主持就歡迎是由總統主文來不是代理 代理跟總統沒關係啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6974.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6990.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
你們每天都要叫我請帖給你打啦你以為這都是以前你給我答覆的我告訴你 你答覆了你第十一條的規定不是這樣你們要把第十一條特檔給請帖的新規定用總統來指定這個來做第四年自己的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6998.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7023.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
必須要委員說啦做官不用做到這樣啦因為委員說其實我們的一個總長的部分事實上來講就是會尊重大院的一個這樣的我才要尊重啊尊重你的後果後果就好這個代理你應該在補來解決你這個代理你不能把總統拖出來你想說整個叫總統黨啊在野黨給我尊重這樣喔在野黨不一定會每天都反對六成的總統會有內部程序嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7028.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7054.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
阿你內部程序都不對阿這個跟委員講喔就是說我們在做任何事情都...我現在還在唸給你聽你告訴我 你說11條嘛齁最高檢察署處務規程第11條規定檢察總長因事故不能執行職務時由其指定主任檢察官或檢察官代行職務並稱報法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7057.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7072.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
沒有總統啊 沒有總統為什麼你們要把賴清德總統砍下來 我想都沒有我想沒有 你們是要害他 還是要撐他 我也不知道到底你們來補償什麼單位 什麼派系 什麼勢力在這裡害賴清德不讓你們害到民調落到30% 你們不可以感恩的樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7083.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7105.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
這跟他完全無關的 這跟總統 台立跟總統完全無關的你們全部要殺給總統打你們現在 總統他也沒有每天在看這裡發抖這是大人看著在跟我說 這樣不對 這樣走 穿著就害到我們這個相關的這個人事法令的一個部分都是有基礎的後來 基礎 要請總統派台立的時候 你有參與作業嗎你有參與作業嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7110.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7139.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
我參與作業嗎?我沒有參與作業你都沒有?我沒有參與作業你沒有 你可以再說什麼?不是這樣講啊 當然今天來我們代表機關當然要做說明嘛啊 你的說明 叫你的說明就變成你在害老青帝了我沒有這樣子的意思啊我剛把你的說明已經都念出來了我原本要這樣子說 把我們的話這樣帶進去這樣子這也沒有意思沒有沒有 我不是帶你的 因為規章規程就是被抓有理由我們今天在國家做事 我們也都是照法律做好 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7140.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7167.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
建議啦 本身建議你們修改中庭 組織法啦就像我講的 司法院議長 副議長的代理 監察院議長的代理 都有修法嘛發入病庭 主任就有法依存嘛現然在監察中庭過去不用經過立法院議長 現在要經過立法院議長以後現然這個代理的部分 法由欠款啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7167.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7171.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
是不是這樣這我們回去可以討論我們不用討論 你有要修嗎回去研議沒關係就對了是好好謝謝 謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7197.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7208.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
好 接下來我們請翁小玲召位好 謝謝主席首先有請馮承峰次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7217.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7243.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
市長好我想今天前面幾個委員都有提到有關於代理總長的問題那麼事實上今天我提的問題跟剛剛謝龍介委員所提的問題基本上是一樣的我們來看看就是說現在這個檢查總長被提名人徐錫祥那麼經過立法院人事投票人事案投票否決之後沒想到我們的賴清德總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7244.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7267.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
第二天就立刻指派一個被立法院否決掉的這個檢察官然後又去代理檢察總長那這個事情當然引起社會嘩然這個看起來就是立法院認為他不適格他不適任結果呢現在又找他來當代理檢察總長那麼當然就是說從行政倫理上面來看的話因為這個徐錫祥這個檢察官他也不是現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7269.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7289.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
在檢查體系裡面算是比較資深最資深而且最受敬重的人所以難怪就是連檢查體系裡面也看這些事情看不下去那麼剛剛謝榮介委員他有提到從法律的角度來看到底總統有沒有代理權的這件事情我想先跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7291.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7298.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
次長還有在座委員我們要來講一個現行的其他機關的法律制度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7300.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7324.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
在司法院的組織法裡面其實明確的有規定如果說是代理如果是院長副院長出缺的話是可以由這個大法官裡面來指定一名代理那麼在考試院監察院中選會還有公平會國家通訊委員會等等的這些組織法裡面其實都有明文的規定如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7326.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7351.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
有這個機關的首長出缺的時候是可以指定一個人來代理主任委員可是呢現在就是說在我們的法院組織法的第66條第二項裡面基本上總統他只有提名權看起來他沒有所謂的代理權這就是剛剛為什麼謝龍介委員在那裡爭執的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7354.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7368.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
總統去指派一個檢察官代理檢察總長這看起來就是很不適格的事情而且更誇張的是說他的代理令上面說一直代理到新任的總長產生可是我們看看現在司法院的情況總統根本就不提名他就擺爛 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7378.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7400.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
大法官儲缺這麼多總統也不提名司法院院長副院長然後就指名一個資深大法官一直代理代理了一年半也難怪大家為什麼現在會質疑賴清德是不是他接下來他也不提名檢察總長了就讓這個代理檢察總長再做個四年是這樣的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7402.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7423.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
對所以我們要講就是說是你從現在的組織法第66條第二項裡面你看他所謂的因故出缺的時候可以有代理什麼叫因故出缺請問剛剛馮市長您說之前有也有這個代理的情況曾永夫還有林潔德檢察官當時你代理那當時為什麼他們會代理是因為之前的檢察總長是出了什麼事嗎辭職 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7432.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7450.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
因為辭職嘛因為他主動辭職然後臨時出缺了那趕快再請一位資深檢察官來代理而且他代理期間非常短耶大概就一兩個月所以我認為說其實法律的檢視我們都是法律人 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7452.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7463.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我們也都曉得法律怎麼解釋那今天大家在質疑代理總長的這個事情第一個就是他可能不合法第二也不符合情理 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7464.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7486.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我當然知道說今天談論這個議題跟馮次長您也很無能為力啦這個指定代理也不是您去代理那麼看起來法務部對賴清德可能也沒辦法有什麼建議權但是我們只是要澄清這個議題就是說是基本上代理這個制度不要被現在的賴清德總統給搞亂搞爛了 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7488.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7511.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
他明明就只是一個短暫的時間過渡的時間可是呢現在因為賴清德總統他不提名這個大法官行政院院長然後也不提名NCC委員然後今天還有個新聞還在講說有可能NCC委員馬上因為他們現在的這四位對不起現在的三位馬上到7月31號任期屆滿就要謝職了 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7518.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7533.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
但是行政院到現在也沒有再提名新的NCC委員的名單所以有可能NCC的七位委員全部都掛零以後NCC就沒有委員了它就是一個空機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7535.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7560.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那麼行政院長現在是又要再搞一個代理嗎就要再指派一個三八點然後來代理主委嗎所以我的意思說就是代理制度真的不能夠被賴清德政府這樣子亂搞都把它玩到就是讓所有的人民無法接受怎麼會有出現這樣的情況很諷刺的是說今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7562.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7578.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
此時此刻正好兩公約的人權委員會應該是兩公約的第四次國家報告國際審查會議正在召開這也是為什麼今天法務部部長沒有辦法來我們思委會開會的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7580.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7602.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
今天還在開兩公約的人權國際報告審查到底賴清德政府有沒有好好重視人權有沒有好好重視機關制度機關制度沒有確立起來你還去談什麼人權保障真的是叫笑死人我真是感到很遺憾啦所以請次長麻煩你回去跟部長好好的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7604.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7620.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
要把我們現在檢察總長代理制度這件事情弄清楚你甚至要告訴賴清德不能夠這樣搞而且要儘速的要提名新的檢察總長我想我們大家不會忍受一個檢察一個代理檢察總長又開始繼續代理了兩年三年四年 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7623.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7644.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
這樣做的話整個司法公信力是這個會被完全的糟蹋大家根本不相信司法了這是本席感到很遺憾而且覺得很可悲的地方怎麼我們司法是可以今天到這樣的一個程度那接下來我要請教的第二個問題是 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7646.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7669.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我們知道現在刑事訴訟法對於通常程序的起訴案件依照第264條的規定起訴書的記載事項事實上它有明確的規定就是起訴書裡面應該要記載一些什麼內容包含被告的姓名、性別、年齡、籍貫、職業、住所、居所或者是其他足資 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7670.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7684.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
辨別的特徵以及犯罪事實及證據所犯的法條然而我們現在在實務上面常常看到一些社會矚目的案件檢察官在起訴的記者會上一定會喊出說我們會從重量刑對於這種求刑的主張是應該要在起訴書上面一開始就要寫的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7694.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7722.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
這樣子的一個做法會不會影響到法官的審理的壓力同時也給社會一個印象就是我好像現警察官起訴他求刑的刑期很長很重可是到了最後法院法官判可能只有判一點點然後就會開始質疑是不是我們又是恐龍法官然後法官又審判又不公正所以我想請教次長就是您怎麼看這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7723.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7730.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
跟委員報告就是分兩個部分第一個部分就是委員剛剛提到那個檢察總長的那個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7731.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7754.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
我們就是一開始我跟那個就是前面幾位委員有提到說我們的檢察總長是經過我們立法院的一個同意這個部分我想檢察總長這個事情您不用再說剛剛已經好幾個委員都已經有講我提一句就好了就是說因為那個我們的總長對於總統對於總長的一個人事任命權跟他的代理我們認為現在目前雖然法律上沒有但是他的法源的系統應該是相同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7756.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7777.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
所以在代理上的部分我們目前我們還是認為說這個職權在總統所以這是第一個第二個就是委員剛剛有提到的具體求刑這個部分具體求刑是檢察官基於公益代表人促請法院良刑的一個建議這個沒有違反無罪的一個推定原則尤其是現在在詐房條例第50條已經明定了檢察官起訴的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7778.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7796.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
得具體求刑他就是要表達出我們檢察官對一些嚴重犯罪的一些我們的態度以及我們也明確的負責任的講出我們對這個案子裡面我們希望建請法院能夠判多少那這個部分上也不會說今天說今天法院經過審判以後判的部分以後認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7797.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7818.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
是要想要讓法國院被罵這個恐龍法官不是這個意思這個馮次長我想在這邊這個還是先回到我們剛剛第一個講的代理本身要講的是說在現在法院組織法的第66條裡面根本沒有訂定這個所謂的代理制度這個剛剛講的因故出卻的代理他是有特別的條件那麼對於這個實際上 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7822.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7836.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
檢察總長出缺總統是不是可以指定代理這個是現行法律沒有規定的所以就代表說立法者可能當時就是有意的要去禁止不可以有所謂有檢察總統又再去指名 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7836.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7844.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
一位檢察官來代理檢察總長這是我對法律的解釋那接下來就是說我們回到今天所問的問題刑事訴訟法第288條跟289條裡面都已經明文的規定良形的辯論應該要在調查證據與事實詢問之後進行我們法律是這樣的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7856.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7866.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
也就是要先定罪之後再論刑可是我現在我們的這個做法是不一樣的對這部分可能或許也可以請那個高秘書長來表達一下您的意見委員是 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7875.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7904.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
因為檢察官起訴跟法院辯論是一件事如果他那個法律規定有加炸防條例有這樣規定他要依法行事可是到我們這邊你要求情當然尤其量刑辯論是非常重要的在這個言事辯論事實調查完畢就是要進行量刑辯論這是非常重要其實委員問到一個很重要的就是你要不要起訴狀憶本 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7906.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7911.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
對其實是這個問題是沒錯可是一線刑法他不是我只能跟委員這樣回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7913.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7938.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
好 那本席這邊提出這個問題我是希望就是檢查體系回去要去思考這個議題因為呢其實在我們的刑事訴訟法264條以及289條其實都有清楚的規定那麼是不是適合像現在檢察官的這樣的一個做法在其實書裡面同時就已經提出了這個求刑的主張我認為說這個部分基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7938.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7941.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
可能會影響到法官的這個審理同時也會引起社會輿論上面對於就是被告的一個先入為主的一個觀念畢竟就是說像我們在現在的日本應該是說我們如果以日本為例的話他們在他們的刑事訴訟法裡面其實就 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7956.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7975.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
有清楚的規定那麼可是在在他們日本的刑事訴訟法裡面的特別規定就是說起訴書是不可以貼附可能夠使法官對案件產生預斷的文書及其他的物件或是引用該文書等等內容所以檢察官是不可能在起訴書當中為具體求行的宣示那本席認為說這個議題希望你們可以去檢討那麼同時呢我可能在這裡要請司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7985.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8005.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
是不是可以一個月內可以提出就是起訴書具體球習的記載對於法官的審判影響的一個延續報告那麼也要請法務部也提出一份報告就是你們是不是要檢討有關於檢察官辦理刑事訴訟案件的陰性注意事項因為你們還是要回到原來的刑事訴訟法裡面相關規定更何況你法務部早在101年跟102年的時候當時就曾經發函要求檢察機關通常程序的案件是不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8013.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8031.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
而是不得在起訴書當中具體求刑的要回到辯論階段再表示意見這是法務部你們自己101年102年的時候曾經有做過這樣的一個發函給所有的檢察官所以那這樣子的一個是這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8033.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8059.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
這個見解或這樣的一個立場我希望法務部回去可以再重新檢視是不是應該要回到我們法律原來的規定好 那個可以請秘書長先請回那我接下來還有一個問題就是有關於刑事訴訟當中的附帶民事訴訟這個部分應該可能是跟司法院比較有關的麻煩請秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8062.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8076.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
因為現在的刑事訴訟法第488條規定提起附帶民事訴訟應該要在刑事訴訟起訴後第二審辯論終結之前為之所以呢我想請問秘書長這個規定有沒有適用檢疫判決的處刑案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8078.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8094.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
也就是說在檢疫判決處刑的時候也是需要嗎也是一樣 一定是在二審言辭辯論終結前一定要維持的可是呢 我們會有發現一個問題就是依照現在刑事訴訟法的規定檢疫判決的處刑案件法院通常不會開庭審理 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8096.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8124.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
然後直接就根據被告的自白或是書面證據就會直接判刑所以被害人他往往根本不知道說這個刑事判決的審理的進度刑事案件的審理進度那等到發現的時候這個刑事判決都已經確定了那導致他們可能會喪失了提起附帶民事訴訟的法定期限那麼這個對於犯罪被害人的保障似乎是不夠的那麼請問秘書長你怎麼看這個事情就是在法院體系裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8126.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8151.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
尤其在針對檢疫案件的時候要做法進行改變委員有提到一個重點就是說因為檢疫案件都是認罪的所以很容易就會辯論終結可是如果有被害人的話尤其像這種金額比較大或者是有調解和解或者給付的可能那必要時法官是會通知被害人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8152.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8175.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
可是有時候就是他的那個時間往往就是太緊湊了沒有辦法就是真的好好的去維護到受害人的權益就是說怎麼樣把這個適當的時間讓法官通知被害人可以使用這個附帶民事訴訟這個程序我們會請法官要去注意其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8176.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8203.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
以前有請他們要注意就是尤其對於你這個整個案件的內容你認為應該要讓被害人獲得適當的賠償這種就是說也讓被告能夠實質補償我們是有要求的另外主要還是就是說你這個附帶民事訴訟是不是可以由原來的法院就自己去審理而不是又一道民事庭因為在制裁法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8204.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8231.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
財產案件審理法的第63條裡面其實早就已經明定了除了特殊情況之外法院是就附帶民事訴訟案件要自為判決所以呢這個部分是不是未來司法院可以就是告訴這些刑警法官盡量的就自為判決就不要又把民事訴訟又移到對沒錯其實我們是強烈要求刑警法官要自為判決除非你裡面有些調查的證據過於冗長 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8233.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8259.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
你才可以移民庭不然像你一般車禍的像那個精神胃戒菌我們希望你在這邊就判掉不要再移過去這個司法院都有強烈要求好那我是不是可以請秘書長提供給我一份資料就是說現在我們看就是近五年吧就是把這個刑庭這把案件然後又移到民庭去處理的這個負擔民事訴訟的這部分然後給我一個數據資料好不好好謝謝你 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8275.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8289.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
接下來我們有請審發會委員發言主席我們是不是先請馮次長請馮次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8305.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8315.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
黃市長,我今天本來是準備要針對今天所排定的議程幾個有關於刑事訴訟法修正案來跟你做討論不過因為剛才從一早到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8321.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8342.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
這個都是在野黨的委員,大家都在詢問有關於代理檢查總長的問題在整個諮詢的過程,我看又好像都沒有一個委員讓你好好的講清楚所以我想我今天就先就這個部分來請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8343.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8360.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
這個剛才其實你在這個斷斷續續都有表明啦但是因為大家都沒有給你完整的時間來說明所以我現在來請問一下請問這一次這個這個徐錫強這個主任檢察官代理這個檢察總長齁在過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8364.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8386.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
他是第一個代理的嗎第一個代理檢查總長的嗎跟委員說不是喔我們這之前曾經有兩位的代理的總長出現過一位是這個曾永夫就是他曾經代理過這個就是當時我們的總長另外一位是林接德也代理過分別是就是說在99年 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8388.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8414.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
還有這個103年所以其中在103年的時期這個時間點那時候已經有在經過立法院同意了這個其實市長我跟你講其實還有一個在我們第一屆1949年的時候就有那時候就有代理那時候叫檢察長那時候還不知道檢察總長那時候就有楊兆龍檢察長代理第一任的檢察長鄭烈鄭檢察長 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8417.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8433.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
不過這個是在檢察總長需要立法院同意權之前請問檢察總長需要立法院同意之後任命這是從幾年開始在103年的時候那時候在黃世民總長那時候就是後來是臨接的 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8441.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8459.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
代理他的時候,那時候是從103年開始那時候就是不是,我是說這個檢察總長的任命必須經立法院同意那是101還是101年,就是立法院同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8460.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8481.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
經立法院同意後任命的檢察總長第一任應該是陳聰明檢察官吧陳聰明檢察總長那2007年2007年所以2007年之後的檢察總長都是經過立法院同意任命的那剛剛所提的這個代理第一位你提到曾永夫 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8484.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8498.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
這個代理檢察總長,他是代理陳聰明檢察總長陳聰明檢察總長也是經過立法院同意認命的,那請問是在哪一年?時間有嗎?這個部分我...有資料嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8506.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8510.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
可能要再查一下我告訴你也是2010年2010年1月26號的代理因為陳聰明這個檢察總長被彈劾所以請辭了所以這個2010年請問2010年的總統是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8527.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8541.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
馬英九馬英九總統所以在從一權任命之後由總統任命這個代理檢察總長是馬英九是歷史上第一人是由他開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8543.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8566.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
那你剛剛講的第二個林接德這個代理檢察總長林接德代理檢察總長他代理兩次其實他代理兩次第一次是這個在這個曾永夫代理總長之後接著又林接德總長再繼續代理這個是他第一次在2010年3月22號第二次是因為黃世民檢察總長他因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8568.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8584.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
捲入這個政爭那這個在一審判決有罪之後他就請辭了那他請辭之後這個由林潔德在第二次代理這個是2014年4月7號那時候請問2014年的總統是誰也是馬英九所以馬英九可以指定代理檢察總長但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8594.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8621.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
民進黨的總統不行就對了是不是這樣 我們法律是不是這樣規定國民黨的總統可以指定代理檢察總長但是民進黨的總統不行我們法務部我們做事情都是依照法律所以它原則上原理是一樣的所以原理是一樣的嘛原理都一樣的那大家剛從頭到尾一直罵一直罵是在罵馬英九了嗎這些國民黨的委員從頭到尾一直在罵罵說總統指定代理檢察總長是一直在罵馬英九你們不能因為馬英九現在失智了你們就欺負他啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8626.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8639.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
所以這個都是我是覺得說這個現在這個在野黨一再的這樣子針對這個都是有慣例的那我請問那時候這個代理的曾永夫 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8641.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8655.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
代理檢察總長 臨接的代理總長那時候是什麼職務本來是什麼職務來代理主任檢察官就是主任檢察官代理嘛 對不對那請問現在徐錫祥是什麼職務也是最高檢的主任檢察官也是最高檢察官 也是主任檢察官嗎對 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8657.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8680.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
所以這個完全就是按照先例按照馬英九的前例在做的事情為什麼可以接一整個早上在野黨這樣子搞一整個早上所以我剛剛也跟委員一直報告說他這個是有前例的嘛對剛剛你一直講有前例有前例但是在野黨委員一直不讓你說明說清楚這個前例到底是什麼前例嘛這前例到底是誰剛剛還有講說這個指定代理檢察官不是總統的職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8682.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8704.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
我這裡一個新聞稿2011年8月2號新聞稿標題是馬總統批示曾永夫站帶檢察總長那個時候也是總統批示的捏沒有錯 代理的這個也是之前那個權源相同所以都是總統這邊的職權是啊我在這裡是這樣子啦這個東西我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8705.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8722.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
我覺得這個我們檢察總長這個我們本來就是希望本來檢察總長他就是應該是沒有政黨色彩他就是這個司法的中立那現在大家因為說在黨因為政黨的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8724.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8743.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
這樣子又罵罵罵其實主要是想找理由罵賴清德然後再上來講說我跟徐祥的私交很好我對他個人沒有意見我意見是賴清德結果所有的這些都是前例都是馬英九總統任命的代理 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8744.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8765.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
所以我覺得這個東西我們要講清楚,我們不能讓這樣雞飛塵世大家上來輪番羞辱一番就變成公理了,這錯我們就要大家講道理來了你看他有講這麼久,我現在真的要進入我們今天的議程,這沒有時間有關於今天我們排的法案也很多,有法官法、刑事訴訟法、刑事訴訟法好幾條 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8769.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8771.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
我個人認為比較重要知識體大的是有關於刑事訴訟法第404條的修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8780.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8799.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
404條就是有關於這個審判中有關於羈押、交保這些裁定提出抗告的這個部分不得在審判中提出抗告審判中的這些羈押等等這些裁定不得提出抗告偵查中可以審判中不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8801.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8830.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
這個這部分全法務部的意見怎麼樣跟委員說這樣會限制檢察官的抗告權會削弱了這個監督法院的功能也影響國家刑罰權的一個實現而且在這個德日的立法例中都沒有限制檢察官對審理中的案件強制處分決定的一個抗告權所以個案之中也不罰審理中的案件法院交保就我們抗告權不用用面子這個我們就把它簡單的講清楚我國的刑事狀法是當事人進行處理是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8832.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8850.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
是不是 是改良市的這個當事人改良市的對 改良市的當事人進行署役嘛那什麼是當事人這個在這個刑事訴訟法第三條規定得很清楚啦本法所稱的當事人為檢察官 製訴人及被告是所以當事人進行署役檢察官也是進行訴訟的當事人之一是所以你在這裡這個 在偵查中你可以救機啊的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8861.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8873.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
這個裁定可以提出抗告但你在審判中你剝奪了這個審判的當事人之一的這個訴訟武器就是整個所謂的這個審判中關於羈押等拘束人身自由的這些強制處分他的抗告的目的有兩個第一個是法院的審極 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8889.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8913.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我這個比較下級的法院我認為認為不用羈押但是我的上級的法院有一個機會你如果看不到我上級法院有一個機會可以予以糾正萬一你所做的裁定有問題上級法院可以做糾正這個是基於審級對不對審級的問題這是第一個第二個是當事人進行的訴訟他的權利平衡跟武器嘛對不對對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8917.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8930.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
那現在你現在把這個一兆的當事人的這個武器這樣子拿掉這樣子是橫平的嗎?這樣是對的嗎?所以我們就覺得說像這個部分上就是不宜做這樣的限制啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8931.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8947.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
所以這個我們在被告你被告有救濟權但是你的檢方卻沒有救濟權你這樣變成武器失衡你這樣子造成程序地位的不對等 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8949.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8960.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
你也整個就剝奪破壞了這個省級的監督的這個機制對不對所以這部分我個人是認為說其其於其其於也不可啦尤其是我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8962.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8987.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
現在實務上面我們在詐欺案件我們在所有的這些水房、機房這些都勾串證據你一旦做了針對這個停止羈押這樣子的處分它事實上對於整個案件的發現真實它會有很大的影響所以我們賦予有這樣子一個救濟的機制我認為是好的那這個時候要把它廢除掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8988.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9016.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
我個人認為說這個不只是這些詐騙案件啦齁你這些組織犯罪組織犯罪對於證人的這些威脅對於相關當事人的這些竄共這些齁都影響這個是否進行羈押都是非常關鍵的裁定啦齁那這個這樣子關鍵對於發現真實重要的裁定的這個機制你現在要把它廢除要有相當的理由嘛現在這個在野黨就因為柯文哲一個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9018.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9040.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
柯文哲一個人在他的訴訟過程中對他有利了他就主張結果一發現不利了現在就叫在野黨來修法直播的時候覺得要直播對他比較好他就一直強力在我們民進黨反對之下要求直播結果直播出去他在裡面講的話一笑大方在網路上面流傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9042.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9069.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
然後這個旁聽者 黨主席在旁聽席睡覺被人家善笑然後現在就說啊 又來了 今天就又來這裡質詢了你們為什麼直播 為什麼針對 為什麼照旁聽席你又不能照你整個輸送過程裡面 你所有對柯文哲不利的你就要來進行修法啊修法下去就不是針對柯文哲一個人欸要不然你就修說 針對柯文哲案羈押不得上訴那我同意 好吧 你們更針對個案 你去吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9070.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9093.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
你這個影響到這個不是你做這樣子的求法是影響到整個司法體制的運作我個人認為說這部分我們法務部要堅定我們的立場針對這種我也希望說本委員會大家在做這些相關我其實今天還有很多啦今天因為我們今天主席依成列這麼多的法我本來一條一條要講結果還有今天只有一條都還沒講完時間就已經到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9096.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9123.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
那這個我尊重後面發言的委員的時間我再講下去後面的委員大家又要等那所以我希望說針對這些其實還有其他的像翁小林委員提的就比較有道理他一樣是要救濟這個羈押中的這個被告他就提說上訴法院應自為裁定這部分可以討論我個人我個人不是很同意但是我覺得這個是比這個什麼不得抗告這個合理多了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9124.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9145.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
好不好那這個以上我希望說我們法務部就針對尤其這個我看到今天的議程裡面有很多都是針對個案的修法針對個案發生的狀況所以提出一個通盤的修法我認為這個非常危險我希望我們法務部在這個修法過程中能夠把立場講清楚好不好謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9148.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9165.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
謝謝省委員那麼我們待會在范雲委員發言結束之後我們先休息五分鐘好那現在請范雲委員謝謝召委有請秘書長有請秘書長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9175.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9201.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
委員長好秘書長早我今天是想請問您就是我們的民法的修法在2009年那它引入了所謂的調解離婚的制度那想請問您就是說當時的希望得到的是說對弱勢的一方能夠保障那過了這17年您覺得調解離婚制度有達成當年修法的期待嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9202.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9214.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
跟委員報告其實調解離婚跟委員報告那時候我是少家庭廳長的時代其實不是為了弱勢的一方是為了有未成年子女 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9215.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9239.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
未成年子女是最重要的如果夫妻有子女最重要是這一個然後再過來就是說當兩個大人所以你的意思是調解離婚制度主要保障的是未成年子女沒有包含婚姻裡面弱勢的一方當然所有的弱勢都應該要被保障並不是在任何的一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9240.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9255.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
所有的弱勢 婚姻裡面的弱勢也是一樣 也是要去了解只是說你的保障方法是什麼是這樣而已好 那我是想提醒您就是婚姻裡面的弱勢不是只有子女當然子女的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9255.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9277.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
一定要保障喔可是條件你看我這邊是用的是學者的研究喔就是當時修法的是黃淑英委員嘛那她是提到說其中協議離婚無法保護婚姻弱勢之一方就容易造成等等好那沒關係喔這是學者講當時修法的原因喔那我回來提喔CDO的國際審查委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9279.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9295.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
他看到我們的離婚調解的部分他認為家暴案件採調解離婚可能會對弱勢的一方造成不平等拒絕調解的當事人會被認為不配合父母是不配合的父母 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9295.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9321.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
或者是沒有解決問題的誠意所以委員會建議涉及家暴的離婚案件應該要禁止調解請問司法院有沒有掌握就是我們有看到家事事件法說離婚訴訟都要先強制法院調解可是我們家暴法會提到說涉及家暴案件原則上不得調解 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9322.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9351.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
但符合若干特定條件則可以那司法院有沒有掌握事實上涉及家暴案件就是採調解喔佔所有的家暴案件裡面的百分之多少如果委員要這個資料我會去整理因為我手上現在沒有可是這是我們強力要求各家事庭法官一定要注意家暴案件是不能夠隨便調解的這個是一個簡直是天條啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9353.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9372.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
那因為你沒有數字顯然就是說我們對於家暴法的這個原則上不調解跟家事設計法的這個要強制調解中間這是一個特別法嘛家事設計法原則是要調解可是有家暴的時候是不準的除非你有符合這個其他單數的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9374.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9394.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那這邊這個禁新聞的報導就是家事條件委員居然在這個過程中說夫妻吵架難免吧我也被我老婆打過家裡的東西也有被破壞過我都沒有還手你要跟對方結婚要經營婚姻關係就是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9395.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9411.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
您覺得這個調解委員對一個受家暴參與調解的就是關係人這樣子的說法OK嗎委員我很訝異一位調解委員怎麼會說這種話這個如果在Qualified裡面應該是不會過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9412.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9434.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以你認為這個調解委員講出這樣的話是不合格的所以這樣子你應該可以認同要擔任家事調解委員他本身的性別平等意識一個先生被打跟老婆被打在性別平等意識上當事人的被威脅感是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9435.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9454.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
當然先生被打也是要注意所以這個條件的律師雖然有律師資格可是他應該就不具備家事條件委員的資格如果有我絕對會去看這個具體案件不是具體案件所有條件委員都 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9455.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9477.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
那你們如何確保家事調解委員有性別平等意識呢你們如何確保因為這個發生了一件可能只是鬧上新聞的不止一件吧這是發生在台南的我希望只有一件好 您希望 但是你如何確保因為你們連家暴多少人去調解都不知道啦沒有數字我是手上沒有 不是說沒有手上沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9479.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9503.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
因為今天是奧家庭同盟沒關係那你事後給我我想問的是你們的制度如何確保來調解家事紛爭離婚案件的委員有足夠的性別平等意識當然我沒辦法說怎麼確保可是沒有辦法確保我的意思是說我不可能在口試中去知道可是我們會加強他要去上 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9503.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9530.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
性別平等很多課程的訓練他們在參與調解前上過多少性別平等的課程那我再把資料給委員不是不是我現在是要問您我們當過老師都知道上了課他可能坐在那邊滑手機有可能對那你如何確定他說因為他想當家事調解委員這個還律師對不對那他上了課如果沒有效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9530.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9546.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
那你如何確定他可以去當家事調節委員其實跟委員報告這是所有我相信任何你即使口試的時候他也會表現得很好可是所以你如何確定所以我沒辦法沒辦法確定那這個制度不是有問題嗎不能這樣講對可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9550.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9567.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
因為我們交通安全去開車可以用那個上課上了30個小時交通安全課我們就知道他能不能開車嗎沒有委員我不知道這位是怎麼樣我們是要上30小時跟一樣我剛講我當過教授上30個小時課他如果上課都在滑手機他可能什麼都沒有學到但是時數是滿的這樣沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9576.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9599.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
所以如何確保他上了30個小時的課性別平等不是30小時嗎可能只有有多少小時30小時裡面性別平等的課有幾小時我相信最少8小時上線8小時那他如果8小時都在滑手機那他有學到嗎當然就沒學到啊對啊那你如何確保他上完課是能夠合格的家事調節委員那就是整個上課過程的了解啊如果要去確保零是秘書長都說不出來了保護委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9607.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9626.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
妳要給他上課妳要知道他有沒有獲得當然是要事後來有什麼機制有一個考試機制嗎我們是沒有考試機制連我一個教授我都不知道滑手機那個人搞不好他本來就很厲害根本不用來上課但是也可能他是零嘛如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9627.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9648.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我當老師我都不知道上完課的學生有沒有學到了沒錯沒錯那你們法院怎麼知道對所以我跟委員說上完課我也沒辦法確定他那你這樣這個機制不是讓很多人來受到二度傷害嗎對有這個可能嗎當然有可能那是不是應該要修正對沒有錯委員所提到的就是整個訓練課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9649.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9675.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
跟他的Qualified的程序我們一定要持續再加強因為家事調解委員是代表法院沒錯吧那人家已經走到要離婚了都已經很多很多故事跟也有可能有一些創傷嘛那不能再造成二度創傷對不對而且調解你剛講的是為了子女的權益也可能要顧及這裡面婚姻的弱勢者的權益對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9676.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9703.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
那現在看起來就是說你們這個家事調解委員的辦法就是我剛講了上了30個小時也不一定有用對不對應該要好好的修正看看怎麼樣才叫做合格的家事調解委員好不好另外我也發現為什麼會發生這種事搞不好跟你們相關的辦法中調解委員的平淨標準還有調解成立率 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9705.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9715.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
為什麼那這樣子會不會讓調解委員就一定希望大家就是死守在一個婚姻裡頭因為這樣子有助於他調解成功率啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9716.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9739.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
不一定啊沒有啊什麼不一定那你這個第八個是什麼台北新北地方法院家事調解委員會的評鑑標準還有調解成立率耶今天好像我們莊瑞雄委員當調解委員結果他覺得雙方聽起來破綻已深就說他覺得好吧就讓他們離婚了結果莊瑞雄委員得到的評鑑率會比較差耶委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9741.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9766.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
為什麼會放到第八點因為調解委員來他就是要促成雙方去對談去達成他們的共識如果能夠離婚當然就是離婚不能離婚那他就是維持婚姻就是這樣啊那什麼叫做調解成立率宣論撤回率撤回什麼撤回什麼你告訴大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9766.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9787.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
撤回我的請求啊請求離婚嗎那不就是我剛以莊瑞雄為例他也是大律師對不對他會尊重雙方有些婚姻走到那一步可能沒有辦法撤回離婚嘛那你把勸論撤回率調解成立率放在對調解委員的評鑑作業不是誤導嗎委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9790.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9799.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
一件婚姻他可能會維持可能會離婚所以調解委員最重要的尤其在家事調解一定讓兩方 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9801.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9826.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
和平共識的做家來談所以當時黃淑英才會有這個修法我們都認為這是好的機制可是你過程中不應該強迫大家沒有強迫 絕對不能強迫可是調解委員怎麼說話像我剛剛講的我再跟你講一下她說連我都被我老婆打過了所以要經營婚姻關係就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9829.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9851.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
這個條件委員是應該被檢討的她為什麼這麼講她就希望這位被家暴的女性要忍受這個家暴男然後繼續經營婚姻嗎那這個會不會跟你們的那個評鑑有關她想繼續當條件委員啊我不相信有關因為其實當你不相信有關你又不認識這位律師沒有沒有委員一個婚姻事件是離婚或者繼續維持 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9852.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9875.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
這兩個都會存在當然可是他不需要真的一個無法挽回的婚姻不需要在調解的過程中被這樣對待您同意吧我同意對可是你們的制度我們看到這個問題而且你們對這個制度的成效到底調解委員有沒有一個基本的素養看起來沒有一個好的檢核機制啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9875.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9892.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
那委員我們關於這一點我們回去怎麼會有讓這種調解委員會存在這是我們該檢討的那我們該去怎麼檢核我們一定會去那更加的加強那調解委員現在的退場機制有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9893.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9911.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
有那這個他怎麼認定就是要當事人來申訴嗎不一定其實當事人申訴是一個最重要的原因另外一個你要看他對這件事情的投入還有他當然上課可能委員認為上課有什麼用可是上課還是有用 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9912.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
9934.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
那你幫我查一下剛剛你認為很不合格的這個台南的案例到底退場了沒有那了解一下你們的退場機制到底是不是有問題是不是要修正好不好謝謝至少你認同我講的這裡面確保弱勢者然後關於家暴就是到底能不能夠調解你們的比例是多少然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
9935.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
9962.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
檢視性平培訓到底是不是上課8小時是不是有用如何知道有沒有用不只是性平嘛他還有很多其他的東西不是上了30個小時就叫做有資格可能上課都在滑手機還有不適應的退場機制那我們要的是保障子女權益還有兼顧保障弱勢配偶的權益好不好弱勢不分性別那多久可以給我本席一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
9963.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
9992.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
我這樣整理下來 兩個禮拜到一個月可以嗎好 一個月啦 兩個禮拜我怕你們做不好好 謝謝好 謝謝范園委員我們接下來休息五分鐘之後再開始不好意思剛剛張召惠我們已經先宣告了就先休息五分鐘等一下等一下等一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
9995.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
9997.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
我們還有去辦公室我們太忙了 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10299.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10303.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
好 我們現在繼續開會 那接下來有請莊瑞雄委員發言謝謝主席 先有請我們防護 封城次長抱歉抱歉 我們先程序上先中斷一下 因為我剛剛就是看到現場莊瑞雄委員在 然後忘記我要在 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10327.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10337.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
繼續先請鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在好那接下來才請好謝謝謝謝主席請馮城次長次長好我要來請教然後我看在野黨的朋友他們也一直關切也一直在詢問這一次總統提名的檢察總長的人選在立法院新的同意權的時候是被封殺掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10356.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10357.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
這本席就覺得很可惜了因為對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10360.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10387.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
總長的人選從專業、獨立、公正還有整個人品來看的話其實徐次長過去在我們司法法制委員會大家是表達一次的一個肯定但是封殺掉以後人事同意權就不同意了可是你不同意你憲政機關的一個檢察總長那你當然說一個人選懸缺這也不是辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10389.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10415.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
我要請教的就是說那以現在啦你就派代理了嘛那你派代理以後呢會有一個麻煩啦社會大眾會開始疑慮就是說你代理你們現在是用計劃警察署的儲物規程嘛那你們這個不是一個法律的一個依據那當然是一個類似你們內部的一個行政命令 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10416.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10436.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
那可是呢,這產生一個麻煩,就變成說,那個法律授權到底足不足,因為畢竟這是一個憲政層次的一個問題,會有法律跟政治上,尤其是憲法層次這樣的一個爭議,可是呢,我要就教的就是說, |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10436.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10453.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
過去有這樣用嗎你不可能檢察總長的人事同意權就是說過去全部都是選缺的時候立法院行使同意權或者什麼樣的一個原因選缺了那產生的方式跟現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10454.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10468.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
立法院同意權沒有通過以後你的兩種做法還完全不同所以我要請教過去的做法是怎麼樣現在的做法跟過去有何不同的地方你講不清楚你用教示請你回答是謝謝委員給我一個機會說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10470.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10490.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
這事實上來講就是說從我們的檢察總長需要立法院來做同意之後的那個時間以後我們事實上就是說在最高檢的這個總長有兩次的一個代理的一個情況一個是在之前就是陳聰明總長後來是有這個是幾年就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10491.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10502.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
2010的1月26日的時候2010的1月26那另外一位是黃世明總長然後當時是由臨街的主任代理主任檢察官來代理那這個時間點也是2014年的這個4月的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10506.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10534.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那這兩次代理他都是由總統府的職權然後來做一個這個代理的所以說事實上來講就是說我們是因為說在人事的任命權跟他指派代理權的權源他應該是統一依照慣例那目前法務部的做法跟之前的兩次是一模一樣的都是由總統的這個代理的部分所以說他跟之前的狀況是完全是一致的所以說他是原慣例來做一個這樣的一個代理 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10535.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10564.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
是啦 所以解鈴還需要系鈴人立法院停止同意權那被封殺了那當然有人會問那到底要代理多久那這個代理多久其實也不是法務部這個地方或最高警察署可以來去做決定我看這就要下一次總統再重新的提名人選那我要請教啦另外要請教啦我們請司法院的秘書長也可以一起上來一下因為今天翁委員提出這個版本那法官法這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10564.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10580.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
其實司法院人審會還有檢察官人審會這個部分啦就是說檢察官跟法官你的進場跟退場或者說這涉及到整個升遷職務的一個異動簡單講啦站在樓北線的看法就是說生光的啦這個部分啦我看司法院這個地方好像你們表達的態度就是說不用啦我們來就可以啦那 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10593.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10607.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
法務部這個地方看起來也認為說沒有必要去做一個改變但是我是覺得 翁委員這個提案有他的意義存在就是說你要大家談到的是司法改革那司法改革大家就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10608.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10633.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
仲正的目的就是提高法院的一個公信力司法的一個公信力不管是檢察署也好或者說法院也好公信力的一個提升甚至於公信力提升就是說你減少一些外部的一個干預行政上的一個干預社會的監督你去把它加強那站在法務部跟司法院的立場你們反而認為說我這個司法獨立這我這我 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10638.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10665.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
跟檢察官 我們現在來這裡的制度這樣就有夠了那可是呢 司法獨立這個部分是不是單純的角色就只有法官跟檢察官這樣的最主要的一個結構的一個組成強化民主可問責性這個其實是可以討論的一個地方啊不然 你看你們司法院裡面因為現在你們如何去舉證說現行司法院院長指定的11位 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10666.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10690.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
外界會認為講 你七十一年這是不是你一定的藝術要怎麼發揮實質監督的一個功能你加一些外部委員會之後你覺得這樣會不會你外部專家 你如果說有三個提升到五個這樣來說就大家會認為說多了一點點的外部的一個監督這些人去之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10694.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10711.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
當然我們也怕說不是屬於在你們整個司法界在運作的人到最後還是留意說好啦不然這個法官專業的問題尊重法官的專業就好這也麻煩啦我這一題我一直想幫你們想了很久啦但是我還是要就教秘書長你真正的核心看法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10712.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10734.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
謝謝委員其實那個院長指定跟法官互選這個是法官自治跟司法克責那委員提到的外部委員是司法透明所以我們本來原來三人那如果大院認為這個外部委員可以增加外部對我們人審會這個決策的 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10738.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10749.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
這個監督性那我是覺得多於三人我們是可以同意的可是我們堅持的只是在不能讓法官互選的 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10750.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10772.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
比例過高因為這個會牽涉到司法課則的問題以上簡單跟委員報告我一直在認為就是那個獨立性還有那個客觀性當然也要包括有足夠的一個專業能力對這個領域要有所了解有所了解所以我覺得這部分來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10774.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10798.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
這個大家都期待 施法的一個公正性 獨立性讓民眾可以來做一個更加強的信任可是我就一直覺得說 我覺得這樣就有辦法這當然不只這樣做就可以做得到但是很值得討論 也可以了解到說我們整個司法院的一個態度但是我要請教法務部 王次長就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10800.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10805.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
檢察官這一塊,我看你們大家檢審會啊,我看你們大家如果有主任檢察官要升遷,還是要到二審去當檢察官,或者說檢察長的一個臨選啊,所以你們自己檢審會,你們就拚拚拚了啦,你們自己,我們進步之後,你們就這樣, |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10815.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10843.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
蔥哥 你說你們的監督性到底足不足會不會有好像說讓人家覺得有性徑之徒啊就說我沒轉嫁了因為好像比較會拍馬屁然後經營人脈 然後就會上去這個似乎在每一次在臨選的時候你們有人批評的只要人選不夠好的就會有人去開砲 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10845.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10847.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
檢察官這一塊 我反而會覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10849.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10870.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
看起來你們那個外部的一個監督還有你們內部不同的一個團體的一個組成裡面也發揮蠻大的一個監督的力量可是這一次的一個修法我不曉得你法務部的看法是怎麼樣跟委員報告其實我們跟司法院的那個模式不太一樣司法院是由大院這邊的院長這邊的名單我們的這個就是領選出來的名單是由我們的這個民選的監審委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10876.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10897.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
然後民選的檢審委員也是由檢察官一票一票投出來的所以這些檢審委員對於哪一個檢察官適合擔任主任檢察官或者二審的檢察官又甚至是檢察長的這樣的一個資格他們是經過了多方的詢問跟徵詢所得出來的一個這樣的人選那部長只能從他們的人選中去挑出 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10898.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10923.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
那個就是說其中的這1.5倍名單挑出的這個一倍的人這樣子的情況所以前提在於說他已經經過了一個檢察官基層大家的共識民主的一個共識專業的一個共識認定出這些人都是符合資格的部長才能挑部長不能自己想說哪一個人他喜歡他就把他放到名單裡面這是不行的所以在這件事情上其實我們是有嚴格的專業性跟民主性的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10924.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10946.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那在於就是說而且我們現在的這個所說的這個公正人士其實在社會上所謂公正人士他對於我們內部的專業其實也不是那麼了解因為他要評量的是領導統一書頁寫的那個跟問案各方面的一個考量那只有內部上面大家的一個這樣的彼此之間才會了解說這個人適不適合領導我們當我們的主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10947.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10976.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
當我們的二層檢察官跟當我們的檢察長以上這個當然實務上政策法務部理事長都會去提這一些啦但是外部參與本席倒認為翁委員這個提案不是不能做而是要制度設計你必須要去講清楚你說要讓真正專業的外部力量來改變我們整個檢察體系讓它會更完善我相信翁委員起心動念是這個啦你像司法院也好你說像法務部也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10977.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10981.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
你譬如說我在刑事院長、司法院院長、治療院院長裡面其他跟你比較不一樣的情況就是你的貫徹首長的意志啦,那都你自己人啦,跟我比較好啦,這個快起來,這個去做硬幣電話,對這個比較好過就你去 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10994.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11007.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
難免你知道嗎 因為有時候你挑到最後專業都一樣 表現都很好 那個都是量化的東西啊量化的東西 當你做秘書長 你就主觀印象說 那個比較好 那個我長期在觀察 那個比較好難免啦 這不用想 你也不知道 這個叫做人性啦所以我才會覺得說 這個是可以 其實是可以討論的但只是說 制度設計的 我們說得清楚說得清楚 如果可以做的 我覺得都不用抗拒啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11024.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11045.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
讓司法提高對人民對他那種公正獨立我感覺外部的一個參與這個不是壞事好不好那次長請回我繼續要來請教我還有兩分鐘我要請教你們這一次刑事訴訟法這個擴大檢視審判程序跟協商制度這個我一直認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11047.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11064.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
這個法制越來越完備或者說現代化的一個犯罪尤其現在我們整個社會裡面這個詐欺這個部分讓我們整個案件的一個數量越來越多那如何在訴訟經濟跟公平審判就是說被告的防禦權跟訴訟經濟訴訟經濟就是在說我要檢驗我某些案件案中越來越多不要讓他那麼痛因為人家你保不住嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11072.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11094.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
可是被告的防禦權這個部分其實你也必須要去做一個考量你現在原本是說你被告犯死刑無期徒刑罪金本金三年以上現在不可以排除你現在變五年以上現在有一個麻煩你現在你準備程序裡面整個我們起訴 陳述起訴要紙抓好被告的就起訴事實我只要做有罪的陳述好 案情都很明確你現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11099.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11127.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
法官說我告訴你審判檢視的一個審判程序內容以後檢察官 被告 律師幫你問問之後就進入這個檢視的一個程序這個檢視審判程序之後不用受騙了調查程序的一個證據的一個方式那真的確實就很省略了因為法官如果這個案子我來審的話我會認為你自己本身你都已經認罪啦那你對於關鍵的證據那到底要不要去調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11128.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11149.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
或者要去排除審查那以這樣來看的話那這一次針對擴大檢視審判程序範圍我有一點點疑慮就是說你可以確實可以減少司法機關的一個送累但是對於被告的一個保障會不會造成侵害秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11150.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11177.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
跟委員報告前提一定是有罪之陳述沒錯委員講到檢視審判程序就是審略證據調查這個幾乎就是要聽取他們的意見他們要同意啊不然檢視審判程序不是隨便就進入啊那當然啊那當然啊其實這個就是一個安全法檢一定會檢啦我告訴你檢一定會檢現在就是說我們要那個都是取捨的一個問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11179.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11190.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
那個法官在審判的時候 你看喔 站在被告的立場啦他搞不好認為說 我這麼嚴謹的對我是優利的啦我就這裡索索的了 不要給你截我的生殖啦不然你檢察官那裡 開始我再給他看了之後我再給他追加 有的沒的所以我是比較擔心的就是說 像這樣子對於整個被告的防禦權來看的話這也麻煩 我覺得有些人會誤會 沒說得清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11209.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11214.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
我現在也是重罪起條到最後不要讓民眾認為是這個檢視的審判程序就會是我一定會幫你拼 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11220.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11243.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
一般民眾會認為這是違罪 我跟你講你不講清楚的話 所以本席的看法是說制度要來減輕送累 可以想像 也值得去做但是被告防疫權的部分 我們也要顧好尤其是要加大去做一個宣傳不要讓民眾會認為說 啊 特等啊這檢視審判程序 那一定會判很輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11244.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11262.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
未必有對 跟委員報告要進入檢視審判程序一定要告訴被告你會喪失什麼樣的調查證據的權限這是非常非常重要如委員所說的一定要聽他 你知道嗎那委員當然有提醒我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11262.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11286.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
如果我們要擴大檢視審判程序會讓民眾誤解說這個判決我們一定會擴大宣傳讓民眾了解其實在進入檢視審判程序一定要告訴他程序調查權有部分會被捨棄這一定要讓被告了解這我們一定要做到的這個我最後要語重心長的講 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11288.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11297.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
這個要減輕法官的一個送累這麼多年來 其實這種話我聽了三十年了越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11299.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11321.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
越來越累 暗件也會越來越多制度的一個變革我們來支持但是過度去對於被告訴訟的當事人產生太大的一個衝擊的部分這個被告的防禦權的部分其實我們也不能去做一個忽略好不好是好 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11324.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11349.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
好謝謝鍾委員那接下來蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在接下來我們有請張雅玲委員謝謝主席我們有請司法院跟法務部次長好有請秘書長跟次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11356.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11374.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
謝謝我想今天大家很多的委員都非常關心有關於我們這一次就是人事審議會的一個組成那我想就是說因為剛剛前面都有聽說但是可能我想再請教一下就是說因為現在其實大家其實都是蠻期待啦可以做一些改革啦但是又會擔心這個可能又會被 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11375.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11401.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
沒有缺乏專業性的時候又會造成一些問題所以我想請問一下就是說在我們現行司法院對於這個人審會的外部學者專家呢我們現在是只有三人我們是不是曾經評估過沒有需要增加那增加的如果有評估過要增加那我們有沒有針對這樣子的一個人選呢我們期待是有什麼樣子的一個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11402.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11417.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
跟委員報告當然當時學者三人在法官法立法的時候我相信是有評估因為我沒有參與所以不清楚其實對於外部委員的增加本院是沒有意見的 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11419.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11441.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那當然為外部委員的多元性因為外部委員是排除律師或承認檢察官這些一定是學者專家等於各方人就是重要的是學者專家來參與這我們是沒有意見的我們主要有意見就是不能夠讓法官代表過多因為這樣我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11444.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11462.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
這是我們最擔心的同僚保護沒有辦法達成司法苛責其實外部委員部分我們是沒意見的所以聽起來就是你們對於這個司法院的人選會呢人數來增加上面是沒有任何意見的但是就是有一些例外條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11463.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11486.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
那我想我今天就是也強調就是說因為其實大家都很期待但是我也是希望就是說我們還是要維持利益迴避跟專業這還是非常非常重要的一件事情避免我們的司法人士受到不必要的一個干預那接下來我就是來請教一下法務部就是說因為其實不管是人審會嘛大家其實對於檢察官的人事審議委員會的組成大家民間也是有很多的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11487.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11502.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
跟想法所以我也想要請問我也了解就是說人審司法院的人審會跟司法院的人審會運作上面是略有不同所以我想要請問一下就是說那你們是因為大家有期待嗎那你們的看法又是什麼呢是跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11503.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11524.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
其實現在目前的檢察官的這個主任以及二審的檢察官以及甚至檢察長的人選的一個這樣的一個討論出來的這個我們的人審的代表他事實上是經過很長期的演變而成的所以一開始也不是這樣他演變到現在為止其實事實上他有一套制度我們所有的這個九個 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11526.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11555.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
咬格上面的這個現成的檢察官代表這九位都是經過各地檢署全體檢察官一票一票投出來的所以他的競爭也是很激烈他這樣投出來是代表整體檢察官的一個名義所以他具有專業性跟他的一個民主性那事實上來講跟委員報告可能這是內部的一個我們的一個實務上多年的做法在我們的做法裡面我們真正的檢察官的這個提名主任的提名他其實是有內部上的一個票選機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11556.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11579.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
看哪幾個我們的檢察官要去報名參加當主任他會有一個排名各地檢署會有一個排名那這個排名要進到這個檢審會之中這九個人會有一個會前會針對這些的排名以後去挑出所謂的1.5名單或兩倍的名單去給部長讓部長來挑人所以他的這個名單是絕對檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11581.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11596.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
這個沒有所謂高層可以伸手他就是那九個人九個委員來做這個部分上其實實務界的都很清楚這麼多年了法務部沒有去針對於說甲官的這個領選的人選去做一個就是說去建議或什麼都在會前會就討論完畢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11597.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11620.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
所以我們的那個就算說我們現在講的這個公證人士加他減的是部長跟總長的這個代表人選他進來他也是這九個挑出來的人選也就是這個1.5名單之中他也沒有辦法真正的去做到挑選人選所以你的意思是說因為根據這樣子的一個層層的關卡中其實他已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11621.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11643.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
相當的有民俗跟專業了對 就是可以維持你們所謂的這個中立跟客觀專業嘛對不對 是的 是的了解 好那這部分的話我想就是說因為其實大家還是有期待啦就是檢察官人審會呢是可以增加外部專家學者那你自己對增加外部學者專家的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11644.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11657.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
跟委員講就是現在目前上面的這個修法上是講說社會公正人士其實社會公正人士這個太廣了這太寬了我們對於社會公正人士這個到底是哪些人對我們到這個也是有疑慮的 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11659.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11687.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
再來專家學者的這個部分上事實上對於我們的整體上我們講說我們要挑一個主任檢察官好了這個主任檢察官是經過十年的檢察官的養成他必須是大家要了解說去打聽這個人的領導統一怎麼樣他是不是就是說會不會對我們的同仁是不是有關懷然後領導統一能力專業能力他的辦案能力各方面他會有比較專業的一個考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11687.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11706.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
那我們外部的這個人進來是不是能夠對這個有所了解還是說他的意見反而會透過一些報章雜誌會透過一些他的一些朋友們的一個說法然後去做一些影響這才是我們真正憂慮的我們現在的檢察官的主任跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11707.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11728.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
就是高檢的檢察官跟檢察長都是透過檢察官自治的一個角度出來的那反而是說引進外面會不會達到大家希望的一個目的還是反而是剛好顛倒這個部分是我們所有所疑慮的地方謝謝我覺得次長說明的非常清楚那在接下來我想要請問另外一個問題就是說前上禮拜四的公佈的這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11729.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11743.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
王子教的判決我想你們都非常清楚的知道民間其實有非常非常多的爭議最大的爭議就是大家認為說其實今天只要有錢人可以和解那基本上我怎麼樣傷害那些兒少都沒有任何的後果 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11744.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11763.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
這是民間的一些想法那我也想要請教一下就是說在這一次的司法定驗之下我也可以理解就是在刑事程序中的確會考量被告是否有認罪是否有賠償是否與被害人和解所以會取法官就有這樣子的決定可以自己來裁決說是不是要判什麼樣子的刑責 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11764.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11781.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
但是我想要再次的强调就是说上次影像的犯罪它其实和一般的财产损害不一样它一旦被购买下载保存分类它甚至是在论坛或是平台中流通所以这个伤害是持续性的它是反复的 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11782.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11800.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
而且通常這個被害人選擇和解很多時候其實並不是兒少本身他可能是法定代理人做了這樣子的一個決議可是這個等於是說在我們的兒少在這個整個過程之中他其實並沒有確實的被保障那我也想請教一下就是針對於我們性騷擾防治法第12條我們對於權勢性騷擾是已經有懲罰性賠償的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11805.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11823.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
法院可以依被害人請求鑿定損害而一至三倍的懲罰性賠償金這個制度的精神就是不是只是補償而已而是要有一個嚇阻的效果所以我想要了解就是說在這個兒少性以上的犯罪既然是有長期性跟反復性的我們是不是可以跟衛福部一起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11824.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11844.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
研究呢就是說讓我們現在在兒少性剝削的條例裡面呢可以增訂重大兒少性影像犯罪的懲罰性賠償制度例如就是針對這個付費購買大量持有多名兒少等等的是不是可以用這樣子的方向來去思考呢不曉得說司法院跟法務部的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11846.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11868.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
關於損害賠償其實對於懲罰性賠償金我個人是非常贊成的那就是一定要入法你用法律來規定這種一個有賠償金在就是一個嚇阻那當然賠償金存在再怪就是被害人我們也希望他獲得實質的法院判決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11869.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11886.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
沒辦法執行是零最重要我們也希望被害人能夠獲得實質的賠償這也是為什麼和解要存在的病要剛剛簡單回應一下那個黃子嬌那個事件最重要是37位被害人我知道全部和解而且全部同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11888.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11901.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
這個法官在這件案子裡面真的是很費勁要讓被害人能夠獲得他當然我們不敢講他獲得最大數的可是他獲得他心理上想要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11902.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11923.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
得到的對這個但這個就是今天要討論的重點就是說它並不像一般的財產損害賠償它是一個長時間的就是它現在這一次這個事件結束之後下次可能還是會所以會造成這個兒少我指的是這個兒少本身他這個性影像是在網路上面持續的流傳所以才會今天想要來跟你們討論除了就是說我們加重這個剛剛講的這個陳漢陳 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11928.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11945.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
損害賠償的部分那我不想請一下大家再請一下那個法務部您的看法是那個兒少的條例這部分是衛福部的一個主管對一起來研議來這個的一個一個看法那麼對於這樣兒少的一個性向的一個侵害 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11946.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11959.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
本部是覺得這種事情是非常的可惡而且對於這樣的一個犯罪是絕對不能容忍的所以因此我們會針對我們也會請那個就是高檢署針對這類的案件絕對是不能夠容忍一定要辦到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11960.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11984.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
好我們可以看到就是說接下來想簡單分享一下就是說雖然說在現行的刑法第57條法院量刑的時候應審酌犯罪動機目的手段犯罪所生的危害或損害危險或損害犯罪後的太陽等等但這畢竟是一般性的規定並沒有針對兒少性影像的犯罪的特殊傷害建立一個更具體的判斷標準那我想就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11985.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12005.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
這整件事情應該都要看得更細緻就是說例如我們可以看到英國跟美國他們的量刑指引就是像英國他是先分了影像的類型就是有分插入性的性行為性虐待或者是Category B的非插入性的性行為那Category C的就是其他猥褻的影像 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12005.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12032.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
然後英國還會根據影像類型分了之後再看加重的因素是不是有高數量是不是長期持有等等的所以英國的重點就是說如果內容越嚴重它的行為越系統化的話它的刑度就會越重那美國的聯邦它基本上就是影像數量所以你可以看到就是說它只要10張以上它就是加重刑罰那只要一部影像它就算是75張的 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12035.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12056.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
照片所以呢他就會去呈現說數量越多刑度也會越重所以我想請教司法院跟法務部是不是可以面對這個兒少性影像的犯罪我們建立一個更具體的專屬的判斷標準讓檢察官在偵查起訴求刑的時候甚至要判緩刑的時候都可以有更清楚的參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12058.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12073.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
其實我們在113年的時候我們就有一個重要的刑事案件妥適量刑法其實是針對各項的犯罪因子我們要具體的提供讓法官要去注意要去參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12074.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12097.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
就如同這個委員所說的像這種各種的量刑因子我們在這個妥適量刑法裡面都會規定那只是因為沒有過所以可是我們內部會把它具體化讓法官能夠有一個指引跟參考了解好那 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12098.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12126.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
我覺得一致性這部分真的是很重要而且尤其是有些我覺得這對社會上這種犯罪我們是覺得是非常的可惡所以希望是說我們尊重院方這邊但希望在判決上能夠有一致性好所以這個妥適量刑法裡面其實也有包含到所謂這些所謂的訴好 了解那是當時沒有經過 當時沒有過 現在沒有過了解 好那我們會來持續追蹤這個部分好 謝謝喔 謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12129.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12148.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
好 謝謝張委員所有登記發言的委員均已發言完畢 詢答結束那委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或已書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員以及本委員會那委員徐宇甄 蔡其昌 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12149.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12165.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
所提的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆本次會議我們就進行到這裡結束那麼議程所列的討論事項三案均作如下的決議就另定期繼續審查我們現在散會謝謝大家 |