| IVOD_ID |
17422 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17422 |
| 日期 |
2026-05-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-35-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
15 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-05-07T08:34:48+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-05-07T11:42:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:07:12 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d6c7ff8226c1adb82a5bee36096d8813692d343e5acb26ceb20afdc66c00aaa185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-05-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於國家安全局收支公開及機密部分。（僅詢答）） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:34:48 - 11:42:00 |
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立法院第十一屆第五會期外交及國防委員會第十四次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十五年五月六日星期三上午九十二分至十二時四十七分 |
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地點紅樓301會議室出席委員陳永康等14人列席委員鍾嘉斌等8人列席人員國防部部長顧立雄及所屬人員行政院主計總署公務預算處專門委員陳台偉基金預算處專門委員戴群芳主席陳昭吉委員冠廷 |
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1721.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
報告事項一宣讀上次會議意思錄決定確定二邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況並被質詢國防部部長顧立雄主計局局長謝其賢政治作戰局局長史順文軍醫局代理局長陳元浩及軍備局局長林文祥報告委員沈伯陽等15人質詢軍有國防部部長顧立雄全民防衛動員署署長廖建興總督察長是總督察長盧建忠政務辦公室主任孫立芳 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1723.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1737.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
陸軍司令部參謀長陳建義海軍司令部參謀長朱惠民空軍司令部參謀長李慶然後備指揮部參謀長薛淵泉憲兵指揮部參謀長文煉忠及國家中山科學研究院院長李士強等及其答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1738.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1763.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
決定一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢討結束二委員黃仁所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報三委員所提書面及口頭質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊請國防部與二周內書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員令指定期限者從期鎖定討論事項一審查一百一十五年度中央政府總預算案關於國防部主管收支公開及機密部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1763.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1787.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
瓜虎部罕國家安全局部份僅詢答2.審查115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於國防部主管非營業基金僅詢答1.作業基金國軍生產及服務作業基金2.國軍老舊眷村改建基金3.國防醫學大學軍事教育基金2.資本計劃基金國軍營設及設施改建基金決議以上二案令則其繼續審查宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1789.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1813.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
請問在場委員對上次會議事錄有遺漏或錯誤需要更正之處?沒有議事錄確定另外更正國防部預算提案收案時間是5月12號中午12點截止請各位委員留意請議事人員宣讀討論事項討論事項審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於國家安全局收支公開及機密部分僅詢答宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1815.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1831.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那我現在介紹在場的委員跟官員首先是陳永康委員 謝謝羅美玲委員 謝謝那接下來是這個列席的官員名單國家安全局局長蔡明彥局長 謝謝行政院主席總書專門委員邱碧珠 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1834.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1848.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
謝謝邱碧竹女士那本日會議審查一五年度中央政府總預算關於國安局授之公開及秘密部分請作詢答報告區分為公開及機密兩部分先公開後機密詢答先秘密後公開時間並記那 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1856.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1867.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
本會委員4加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘10點半登記截止發言如果有臨時提案請於10點半前提出11點左右處理現在請蔡局長上台就公開部分進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1878.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1898.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
謝謝主席 主席各位委員 先進 各位女士 各位先生 大家早澄門大院安排審議本局115年度的預算案以下請就本局公開預算的部分做簡要的提報如下第一大部分是有關於114年度預算執行的情形整體的執行率有達到99.25%各項施政工作都能夠按照計畫的進度來順利的來推動跟執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1901.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1923.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那第二大部分是有關於115年度的施政重點那這部分我們大概分為幾個主要的一個重點的工作那跟委員逐一的做說明跟報告那第一部分是前瞻科技趨勢健全治安的尾韻那這部分本局為了因應治安的威脅日增以及害輕的趨勢變化我們會持續來精進我們治安檢測的技術以及來強化我們弱點集合管理的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1924.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1949.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那主要的目的就是希望能夠來落實安全修補跟風險的管控那另外也透過我們追蹤年度軟硬體維護執行的情形維持我們設備的高妥善率以便來確保整體情資系統穩定運作第二部分是有關於運用創新的思維提升行政的效率那這部分大概有幾個重點包括我們會加強公文檔案的作業那透由檔卷管理系統的更新來完善我們全班管理的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1949.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1967.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
另一方面我們也會針對我們跟國際友方外文的情資還有國際即時的情訊結合AI技術的運用來辦理專案翻譯的工作同時我們也會來落實我們施政計畫的管考配合到國家政策的方向還有安全情勢變化的趨勢來掌握相關工作推動的一個進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1968.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1997.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
同时我们会持续来推动跟社会的沟通针对影响国家安全扰乱社会安定的相关讯息来适时发布新闻稿或是对外做澄清的说明以便来强化政府跟社会之间大家在对于各种重要议题认知的一致性第三部分是有关于策进后勤的事项跟资源情报的工作在这部分我们会持续的来完善我们财产管理的作为同时也会来提升我们采购作业的一个效率 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1998.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1998.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那也會針對我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2001.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2027.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
機關的辦公環境積極來做必要的改善同時也會強化營區安全的管理跟防護的作為好那第四部分是有關於完善人事的管理跟提升人力的素質那我們會持續的來運用本局多元均文增補的管道那來捕食相關專業的人才以便來提升我們在特勤情報科技等等工作的一個量能那第五部分是有關於提升我們校 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2028.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2043.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
預算的一個效益那妥善的做好資源分配的工作那針對這部分我們都有定期來召集會議那檢討本局預算執行的情形來提升我們整體預算資源運用的效益那確保我們的市政目標計畫都能夠順利的來達成 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2045.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2061.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那第六部分呢是有關於落實聯能的政策確為我們內部的安全那這部分本局向來非常的重視那所以我們會持續的來推動我們政風法令的宣導那深化本局同仁在廉政紀律保密跟安全等等的法紀觀念那同時我們也會堅守我們採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2064.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2078.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
兼辦相關職責持續依循政府各種法令規章兼辦各種採購業務防止任何可能的貪賭案件發生第七,我們會加強特勤訓練提升本職學能這部分我們會持續辦理各項特種勤務專業訓練課程充實專業職能提升特勤人員應變處置各種突發狀況的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2090.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2113.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那第三部分跟各位委員先進所提報的是我們在115年度公開預算編列的情形在稅務的部分本局編列有1,079,000元那另外在稅促的部分本局在115年度編列有11億6,776萬7千元那這部分有包括到行政管理費我們編列有10億7,940萬元在情報教育訓練費用部分我們編列有4,679萬3千元在情報建築跟設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2120.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2148.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
業務部分我們編列有四千一百五十七萬四千元那以上大概是針對本局一百一十五年的公開預算編列情形跟大家做說明跟報告那最後結語的部分那本局在一百一十五年度公開預算主要是基於前瞻國際情勢並且橫走未來情報特勤工作推展的一個需要遵照行政院所核列的額數那何時來編列也希望大院各位委員先進可以持續給予本局支持跟各種的指導以上報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2149.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2159.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
公開報告結束接下來進行秘密會議我們進行清場移動時請全部由前門出場參與秘密會議員由後門通過檢查後進入請議事人員清場 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
3258.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
3260.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
現在開始公開質詢 委員開始詢答我們現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請蔡局長謝謝主席 羅委員早 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
3286.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
3303.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
局長早 局長 首先想要跟局長探討的是我們國安局人員的招募近十年來我們可以發現國安局在招募志願士兵的狀況其實是不理想的 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
3304.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
3318.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
從106年到111年我看到我們的這個目標數都有訂定到60位可是我們看招貨數或者是招貨率來講其實一直都不是很理想像招貨率的話一直都是在2 30%左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
3322.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
3347.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
可是到了112年到114年也許前面的招貨數真的是很不理想所以我們到了112年到114年我們的目標數直接腰斬只剩下30位那除了113年招貨數有到27位那剩下來的112年114年其實也就只有十幾位而已那我們到了115年目標數 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
3350.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
3370.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
又再次的再減50%只剩下15%那當然因為數據還不曉得嘛所以我們不曉得今年的這個招貨數是如何可是我們所看到的就是說當初我們會訂定這個目標數不管是30也好60也好一定是有這個人力的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
3371.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
3395.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那像這種狀況我們因為帳戶數不足所以我們一直腰斬一直腰斬那請問我們這一個人員的招募我們要如何去補足這人力的不足呢請問局長好 謝文關本局志願役士兵招募的一個情形事實上志願役士兵在本局主要負責的還是一些比較基層的情報行政的工作以及營區的安全衛戍的工作這大概是 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
3395.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
3423.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
就工作屬性的部分先跟委員做這樣的一個解釋那第二部分是在招募的數的預計的目標的部分過去確實便利的比較高那但是我們後來有做一些檢討我應該沒有記錯的話應該是三年前也是在預算審查的時候也在委員會裡面有很多委員提出來為什麼那個招募數跟目標數會有一個落差那我們後來回去做深切的檢討因為他那個招募數還有涉及到流盈率的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
3424.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
3437.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
早期我們確實在人力的流失上比較嚴重那所以我後來回去我還親自招會我想在場一集主管大家都知道我們去檢討為什麼我們的流盈率不好那我們包括去改進包括我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
3438.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
3454.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
志願醫師兵他的那個值班還有他留營的時間那比如說我們用比較彈性的機制去讓他們不必全部都留在營區待命而是能夠用彈性的方式讓他們也可以到外面去上課也可以跟家人相處 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
3455.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
3474.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那也可以有自己的一個社交活動但是只要緊急召回的時候他們必須要在多少的時間之內在名單上都必須要緊急召回我們用這種方式讓他們的一個作息比較有彈性那另外也去改善他們的一些生活的條件跟設施還有他們的那個住宿的地點我們也都做一些重新的一個規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
3475.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
3501.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那各種的一個管理上我們也甚至指派更多的女性的軍官來協助我們女性的志願役士兵所以我們在制度上確實有做一些測進那這也讓我們後來這幾年的流營率有明顯的改善那也因為你流營率比較好的話你在那個招募的目標數就會隨之降低因為大概人力流失的狀況不嚴重所以跟我們說明的是那個目標數會有這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
3502.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
3521.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
調整也涉及到流營率以及我們對於我們志願役士兵相關工作環境改善的情形是那局長你這樣子講就問題就來了因為在之前檢討的時候呢我們有做了一些精進的措施嘛那如何去改善他的環境或者是流營的時間等等剛剛局長都講得很清楚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
3524.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
3529.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
照理來講的話應該在115年竟然有做改善了115年為什麼我們又要調降這個目標數只有15而且我們114年4月份其實政府已經調高了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
3540.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
3563.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
志願役官兵的這個待遇我們又提高了待遇那他的這個環境就是他的可能就是工作環境也改善了那時間也有做了一個彈性的調整等等再來講的話為什麼我們目標數為什麼不是維持至少30好了我們改善了這一項我們還是115年的時候我們還是把目標數調降到15好像跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3565.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3586.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
局長你剛才所提到的這些改善好像並沒有掛在一起你覺得已經改善你應該有信心嗎?看起來你好像也沒有這個信心說可以留下這些人對我懂我的意思也就是說在改善之後那應該是我們的志願義士兵的招募會更容易因為大家覺得環境改善願意來 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3587.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3603.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
但是一體的兩面是因為留下的人更多我們需要的那個員額確實沒有像歷年來的那麼大這大概是我剛剛跟委員解釋的一個角度跟原因那當然另外有一部分是本局招募的志願義士兵他比起其他政府機關來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3604.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3632.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我們的要求確實比較多各種保密的作為各種的那種出國的各種的一個管制作為它確實比較多那也造成我們確實在招募上然後可能在競爭力上跟其他政府機關來講我們確實是處在一個比較弱勢競爭的狀況所以我們要去檢討我們到底人力需求的實際狀況是怎麼樣那來訂定我們的目標數委員擔心的可能是怕是不是因為我們因為招募數不好所以目標數不斷地往下降我當然理解委員的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3632.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3647.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那不過剛剛跟委員說明報告是因為他有涉及到流盈利率的問題那有涉及到我們實際招募跟其他政府機關的一個競爭性的問題所以我們現在訂的目標數是比較審慎的所以並不影響到我們國安局的人力的配置嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3647.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3671.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
沒有沒有 因為他們主要 我一開始在說明的是這些志願役士兵主要是做比較基層的行政工作跟營區維安的工作所以局長就覺得還行所以在人力的這個配置算是還行當然我們是看到這個目標值一直往下降所以我們就覺得說這個對我們後職人力是不是有很大的這個影響那當然我在想說目前雖然說114年4月份我們已經調高的這個待遇可是這可能並不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3673.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3688.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
各種誘因的質疑這是其中的一項可能其他的誘因還不太夠所以我們做了改善所以我就在想說這個部分的話看看還有沒有努力的這個空間我們就覺得說這部分的話我們還是要國安局本身還是要增強還是要來做改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3691.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3720.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
因為每次委員提到這一類的問題我個人都蠻重視的所以我才跟委員說明我記得很清楚的是三年前我還記得是哪位委員提出來那我回去還徹底的去檢討了我們的一個制度面包括更換他們的制服讓他們不用在執勤的時候大熱天穿著大禮服還要燙還要整燙然後滿身大汗我們後來改的就是跟府前的憲兵警衛一樣穿的是比較那種服勤的服裝會比較舒服一點我們連這部分都有列入考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3720.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3721.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
謝謝羅美玲委員 接下來我們邀請陳永康委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3749.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3774.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
主席有請局長今天早上聽取了公開的報告我對報告內容的一部分提出一些關切就是有關我們的AI的問題現在AI在國際上面它的技術精進動作太快 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3775.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3792.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那麼最主要就是說有國外不同的廠商提供的AI運算的平台那這種是付款用的可能短時間可以提供你很多的資訊但是你所有問的問題的答案全部在他那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3793.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3818.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那尤其是云丹在国外那对我们来讲是极不安全的那因此发展AI对抗AI是我们局里面一个很大的一个挑战那现在我比较关切的就是说我们AI的人才啊因为这个不是一般性的就是说用聘雇啦或者专业的有很多是要做这个运算逻辑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3819.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3834.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
還有一些是過去長年在這裡面研究的他的年齡可能不受聘僱人員的限制他的經驗也許有的是國外有的是國內但是這批人才要有效的整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3835.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3858.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
可能不是说是比方讲三处四处五处是各抽几个出来未来可能在局内要有一个独立的AI主导那么这个主导的办公室还要包括跨部会现在美国在这个国家安全战略底下他的国务院战争部 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3860.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3877.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
國會以及CIA他們通通有對中國大陸的特別研究小組但是他們可以分享AI的共同資料這一段目前我們還沒有做到是應該要大家朝這個方向去努力美軍啟動了Marvin的這個方法這個圖表 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3882.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3909.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
就是如何预期演算法针对锁定的目标尤其是动态非动态很多的统计资料堆叠持续累计这个东西的范畴太广资料量太大也不是我们每天统计说比方讲骇客来多少几万次什么几万次那个只是去敲你的门做个假门号但是真正传播出来的假讯息 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3910.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3937.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
非常大连包括厂商的卫星啊都可以把假讯息套上去就像这个美国去抓抓这个这个中美洲的那个总统啊当时的前后几天他在图上面都把他的周遭的位置全部取消掉也就是说你在Google Map当天的时候这些图都不见了 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3939.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3963.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我們臨時要用的時候可能要有我們自己的資料庫現在因為美國的DIO跟我們國防部成立的DIO我認為運作的觀念跟規矩將來要有更大的整合因為時間很有限我用最後一張圖給大家看這張圖圖的右上角就是現在所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3966.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3982.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
資訊戰 網路戰 心理戰 媒體戰那它是交錯交叉比對除了國外的媒體以外還有現在所謂的個人的各種公開的網情不管是小紅書 TikTok你看到的東西95%都是人工製造假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3983.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
4004.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
因此所謂的misinformation disinformation fake news然後變成深偽的制度影響太大但是這個東西終究是有人事實地物到底對不對對於我們國防現在所謂的神盾台灣之盾也是整合也運用到了AI的東西這些交錯比對的過程中間 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
4005.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
4026.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
国安局要有一个您过去在地底下地板上有做一个大图涵盖但是现在可以用超大萤幕细放就是套叠那这个东西有很多的工具方法也可以提供这些资料作为运用就是不同的事件不同的时间不同的地点不同的人物 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
4027.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
4053.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
不同的行动前瞻反推去对比一个月前的动作预判两个礼拜后的动作那这个部分AI可以提供很大的协助尤其是我们现在政府都在讲台湾之盾嘛还在省这个预算所以不是光买硬体这里面最重要的一部分因为AI全部是商业软体这个部分的过滤啊就很重要那像用这个图啊在图的左边的几个里面啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
4053.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
4068.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
有包括資料的整合演算的整合UI整合各種整合這個全部是AI的功能因此我們甚至用公開的民航局在國際航線上您看左下角就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
4069.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
4085.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
往這個非洲去的那個路徑我們都可以把它做出來在哪個校正點要向哪個FIR的管制區做航管的做報告像這些東西要整體的整合所以不只是國安局本身的一個工作我相信透過國安會 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
4086.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
4104.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
國安局來主導協助把這些功能跟國防部甚至外交部速發部要做一個完整的AI的運用整合因為要AI對抗AI局長請您回應一下那爾謝委員提到那個AI的問題那這部分也是我們現在跟國際情報合作交流的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
4104.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
4120.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
關切的重點的議題那大概我們的做法有幾個部分第二部分是商規版的公開的AI因為他們能夠應用的網路的資源跟資訊是最多的那這部分我們有一個作業規定的辦法在運用過程當中要避免可能洩露身份跟去識別化 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
4121.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
4142.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那第二部分是我們內建版的AI那這部分的內建版的AI我們自己要去生成一些大語言的模型那也能夠來運用我們自己比較機密的內部的一個資訊那讓這些延續報告的產制比較符合本局的一個期待的一個一個撰寫的一個方向那另外也運用AI去查找網路的一些認知作戰跟正義訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
4143.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
4169.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那能夠去進行溯源以及相關的傳散的網絡來透過所謂委員所提到的AI agent這種代理人的狀況來掌握相關的一個資訊比較大的挑戰是在於影片的這一些爭議訊息因為一般AI能夠去查找的是文字的他對影片講話的那個內容比較不容易掌握但是部分我們也開始有研發一些軟體大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
4170.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
4191.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
已經在測試過程當中讓我們針對AI生成的影片我們可以用委員所提到的AI 反制AI來進行掌握了解它的一個傳善的一個管道那另外針對一些公開情資以外委員提到有那個飛行的圖資以外還有包括到一些公開的相關傳資的AIS的一些訊號那這部分確實有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
4194.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
4216.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
商規的AI軟體可以做一些初步的分析那這部分我們也有在做運用那所以我們是有成立一個專案的跨單位的小組由我本人親自主持定期的來看我們這部分不管是在收研科技情報的收整或是認知作戰的一些爭議訊息的查找都能夠來充分運用AI新的一個技術那也謝謝委員的指導跟提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
4216.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
4239.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
好大家都曉得AI是一個有效的工具是但是對我們來講也是一個嚴肅的挑戰是希望大家共同努力為了國家安全好不好把這個觀念技術成果跟政府的跨部會做分享對對這是我們努力方向謝謝委員好謝謝我們謝謝陳永康委員接下來我們請陳俊逸委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
4261.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
4288.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
好 謝謝趙偉 我們有請蔡局長局長早車委員早局長 下週這個全球矚目的川習會就要在北京展開了對那這是去年10月以來美中兩國這個領袖再次會談那也是區域局勢的一個動盪美伊衝突持續之際的一場關鍵的會晤那看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
4291.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
4307.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
美中的外交還有經貿首長最近頻繁的互動而且美國的運輸機也在近日抵達北京進行相關的前置作業甚至伊朗的外長也搶先到北京和王毅會談顯示雙方 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
4309.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
4338.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
都在為這場會談進行最後的準備先前盧比歐和王毅已經在4月30日進行通話在通話後中共官方表示王毅提到原所外交始終是中美關係的一個定盤心以及台灣問題是中美關係的最大風險點甚至要美方做出正確的一個抉擇以此打開中美合作的一個新空間等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
4339.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
4366.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那相較來說美方對於這場通話的敘事似乎比較低調那我在此我想請教局長就是針對這場通話國安局所掌握的實際情形為何那雙方外長是否已經就台灣的議題進行到實質的討論那從美中在會前的這個動作來看這場元首外交對雙方來說是否具有什麼不同的意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
4367.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
4381.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
好 謝委員提到這個非常重要的問題那正委員所提到在川習會之前美中雙方都有進行一些外交部署的工作那我大概分幾個面向跟委員報告剛才也跟媒體朋友做說明第一個是就美中整體關係來看那雙方目前的爭議的議題錯綜複雜 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
4386.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
4409.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那他們是希望能夠透過這次的川習會領導人的會晤來管理這些紛爭那避免紛爭擴大或是升高那透過領導人的會晤來鋪陳一個比較友好穩定的氣氛那但是我剛才在跟我媒體朋友說明是這種氣氛感覺上是比較一種脆弱的穩定的氣氛也就表面上也許有一個鋪陳那是可控管的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
4410.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
4434.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
但實際上在爭議的議題部分,雙方立場真的是有點南轅北轍。美方比較關注的是委員剛所提到的,希望能夠來改善經貿失衡的問題,以及中共能夠採購更多美國的農產品跟商業客機。同時對於稀土還有分泰尼的問題,美方也很關注。也許在不同場合還會提到人權的問題,包括美國公民被扣押,以及香港人權的問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
4435.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
4455.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那中共比較關切的是在於那個關稅戰希望能夠這個停火能夠持續那還有中共最大的一個關切是在於美國能夠放鬆對於高科技的管制所以大家可以看到這些議題大概都是美中之間比較結構性的爭議的問題那另外在地緣政治跟區域安全議題上雙方立場也並不一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
4455.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
4478.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那委員剛剛有提到在台灣議題的部分那我想中共可能會在川習會當中做一些涉及台灣議題的操作那當然委員有提到不管是王毅或盧比歐已經有進行通話可是應該委員有注意到在昨天的記者會當中那盧比歐也特別強調那不希望發生任何會去破壞台海或印太安全穩定的一個情勢發生來表達美方的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
4478.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
4497.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
所以美方在這種公開的或私下的場合也不斷的來進行一個重申對於台灣的政策並沒有改變不過後續的狀況我們還是會持續的關注有沒有一些比較特殊的狀況值得來注意好 那剛剛局長您也就他們雙方可能會要取得的一個目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
4498.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
4523.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
有一個很明確的說明因為川普這次訪問中國只有短短的36個小時的時間根據我們國安局掌握的相關預判這一場會談的核心議題優先順序會是什麼雙方尋求的目標又會是什麼最終可能會達成什麼成果或形式我們台灣的議題會不會在這一場川習會上 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
4524.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4546.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
會是另外一個他們要討論的一個議題是跟委員說明一下可能那個經貿的議題跟貿易失衡的問題還是重中之重因為這牽涉到雙方的關稅戰停火能不能持續的問題那美方很多的前置會議可能委員注意到主要是由財長Basin在跟中共的副總理何立峰來進行磋商那談的都是經貿議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4547.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4564.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那另外美國USDR也就是他們的貿易他們代表格魯有大使也特別強調他們的主要關切就是在於貿易的問題所以我想可能在優先的比重上那經貿問題會是重中之重那除了經貿議題以外那其他可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4565.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4581.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
連動到就剛剛提到的商品採購的問題那以及稀土管制問題高科技管制問題這些議題可能都是雙方會花比較多時間來進行討論的地緣政治跟區安全問題也許會觸及那剛剛針對台灣議題的部分我已經有跟委員做一些說明了好 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4584.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4607.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
近期我們台灣也有這個對內跟對外不同的一個重大議題那可能與中美兩國相關的對內包括這個國防預算還卡在我們協商的階段還沒有進入真正的一個審查機制那對外的部分先前有這個國共會談以及近日我們賴總統這個出訪非洲友邦斯瓦帝尼這些因素或多或少都可能會 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4608.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4622.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
間接影響到川習會談判桌上的籌碼我想請問局長我們要怎麼評估這些因素對於我們雙方處理涉及台涉台的相關議題的影響我們又如何確保我們台灣利益不會被犧牲 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4623.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4642.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
對,這部分剛剛媒體也在討論,大概兩個面向一個面向是在於中共對台可能後續的一些施壓的動作那這個手法我們會持續來注意,不管是文攻武嚇還是可能的相關的認知作戰、揮帶襲擾或是外交的施壓,或是這種所謂的跨境鎮壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4643.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4670.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
但是除了施壓的手法樣態以外我們還注意的是時間節點包括剛剛講的五月中旬的川習會520總統就職兩週年以及今年下半年的軍事演訓的期程還有11月中國所主持的 擔任主席的APEC峰會那我們把樣態跟時間節點結合在一起的話我們會去推演出一些可能的情境劇本在不同情境劇本 假如中共對台施壓的話我們怎麼樣來做應處作為我們也會做一些相近的規劃來支援我們的決策參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4672.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4687.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我們面對大國之間的博弈台灣不能成為被犧牲的籌碼下週的川習會仍然會隱藏不確定的相關因素我也請我們國安局能夠準確的來判讀各方的所釋出的相關訊號 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4690.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4712.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
與友方保持密切的溝通與聯繫提供最新的情資給我們各部會能夠及時做反應確保我們相關的利益不會因為這場談判之後受損以上再請我們國安局持續關心好這是我們的工作我們持續來加強謝謝委員來告訴我們提醒我們謝謝陳俊宇委員接下來我們請黃仁委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4723.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4748.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
尤其局長謝謝主席黃委員好局長好這個川喜會即將來到了我想大家都是議論紛紛到底川喜會對我們台灣有什麼樣的一個動向或是針對我們經過的議題裡面來做討論當然檯面上 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4753.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4760.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
不談 台邊下可能就會談因為他們之間的一個談判裡面當然除了伊朗的問題之外那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4764.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4791.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
主要也是對我們台灣的經過到底造成什麼樣的影響或是對我們台中華民國經過的問題裡面是不是在台面下有討論過去川普已經不是一次反垮而已從2017年的11月就是因為北韓的核武議題所以後來造成他們所謂的一個核武談判包含經貿的談判 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4793.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4817.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
我們可以看在2017年的4月就是營造友好的氣氛重點涉及北韓的一個貿易的問題2018年的12月貿易戰休戰2019年的6月重啟貿易的談判這就是過去經驗的發現川普更重視經貿議題對於兩岸事務川普最多重申美國的一中政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4818.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4833.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
其實是有討論或共識也不會放在檯面下所以這顯示國安局在勤研或這個勤收的工作的重要性所以局長川普川喜會 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4834.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4855.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
你們大概有會情收或情演的一個議題上你們會有怎麼樣的面向好 回答一下好 第一個各位報告是主要的情收情演面向是在於美中整體的關係那川習會只是美中在管理它整體關係的一個峰會它只是一場會議但是我們在看的是比較從 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4857.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4878.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
這個會議當中所牽動到的美中整體關係的變化那包括在經貿議題上在地緣政治的議題上那以及在區安全議題上雙方到底交鋒還有能不能達成一個共識或是有哪些的爭議點解決不了那我們就用這個來觀察整體關係的部分那第二部分是在經貿的部分因為美國希望能夠來平衡美中的貿易失衡問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4879.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4898.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那這個還有牽涉到美中的關稅戰的議題老實講他牽動的不是只有美中雙邊的經貿往來他還有牽動到可能是會有涉及到全球供應鏈的相關的變化那這個也當然對於台灣我們這種高科技產業產生的衝擊也是非常直接那這也是我們關注的一個面向 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4898.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4914.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
那第三個部分是在地緣政治跟區域安全的部分美國因為現在跟伊朗在中東的情勢還沒有完全的解決那他假如在川習會之前跟伊朗之間能達成一個協議的話當然情勢就比較有緩和的跡象但假如沒有的話情勢繼續延宕的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4915.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4938.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
那可能會對我們的能源安全又會產生影響所以這也是一個我們必須要關切的議題那第四個面向是中共在過程當中會不會去操作台灣的議題那因為這部分在王毅跟盧比歐的通話那已經有做初步的一個接觸那盧比歐在昨天的記者會也重申了美方的立場就是不能夠發生去危害 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4939.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4961.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
台灣跟印太地區和平穩定的事情發生所以美國也有表達這樣的立場那不過幾個面向來講我們會持續的來注意實際的狀況是怎麼樣這個說明的一個面向當然是很精闢那當然每一個都有一個研究的議題或者說去研究美國為什麼會去跟習近平會見面的議題是在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4962.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4975.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
今天國際的動盪是兇手 我們講兇手好了如果不是美國主動去挑釁各國的這一些這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4977.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4993.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
這些國家也不會今天會求救以中共會來找他們勢必是不是要伊朗要撫上檯面來談判因為現在伊朗已經不願意跟美國來談了 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4994.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
5019.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那這個狀況也造成了整個的一個中東的地區包含我們現在的物價石油都已經漲了讓我們很多尤其是我們台灣現在已經民不聊生對我們的這些經濟油價包含物價都已經上漲都已經受不了了那伊朗也不願意再談判那這個情況之下是不是要借用中共 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
5020.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
5046.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
然後順便把我們台灣的議題做一個討論當然在台面上是不是討論台面下是不是討論到我們經過的議題未來可能會怎麼樣那你回答一下好不好針對那個美伊的核戰的一個磋商的過程那目前看起來雙方都有各自的堅持美國比較重視還是伊朗的去核那以及荷姆茲海峽的開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
5047.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
5072.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
但是伊朗強調的是他擁核發展核能的基本的權利那以及要求美國要撤除對於他港口的封控所以雙方對於那個條件目前還在磋商當中不過也跟委員說明一下我們所知道的說雖然雙方各有立場的一個表態各自陳述他們立場不過他們的溝通管道還是順暢那他們也許像委員講的不是直接的溝通不過他們有透過第三方就是巴基斯坦在傳遞雙方談判條件的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
5075.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
5091.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
所以至少那個管道並沒有完全的斷掉所以這部分我們要繼續來關注那委員也提到這樣會牽動到全球的能源以及經濟的穩定度那不過也跟委員說明另外一個角度就是說台灣本身因為高科技產業的體質比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
5093.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
5114.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那在不管是在股市或是在高級產業目前委員也看到一些可能董事會的一些獲利的報告都還基本體質是不錯的那我們當然希望維持這樣的體質不要受到外環境太大的衝擊跟變化去影響到我們後續經濟成長的一些相關指標的達成我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
5116.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
5141.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
這個最主要就是說上次的這個川普訪華已經十年的一個事情十年前的事情那國際歧視也改變很多國安局這是一個判斷在這次的川普的訪華那川喜會重點你們應該要掌握重點是什麼還有這個台灣議題會會有幾項的重點那我想一定是會納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
5143.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
5166.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
那是不是在俯上台面還是台面下不曉得我相信如果俯上台面的話一定會討論到我們經過包含台海的這些戰略的一些位置上或者說整個國際的情勢裡面我們台灣站的位置有多重要這個是不是你們都要掌握好不好各位說明一下因為昨天 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
5167.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
5189.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
盧比歐在記者會有針對這一部分有他一個基本立場的陳述那委員的提醒我們後續再來做注意那不過就川習會來講我們跟委員報告我們關注的不是只有單單這一次今年的川習會因為他今年這一次五月中的川習會是第一次他今年後面還有好幾次所以第一次他很有可能只是在鋪陳一些基本的立場那後續的川習會實際的狀況怎麼樣這也是我們後續會再持續追蹤跟觀察的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
5193.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
5219.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
當然希望我們希望能夠勸導美國不要再挑釁各國各國的一些造成我們很多一些不管是中東台海或者說整個國際的情勢裡面造成整個的石油物價都頻頻的上漲這是一個對我們台灣的民生議題非常的重要非常的一個關心好不好好我們繼續注意謝謝黃仁委員接下來我們邀請王定委員上台質詢謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
5235.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
5263.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
好 謝謝主席 麻煩局長我們請局長好 王後援早喔局長你聽到美國在台海挑釁你會有什麼看法我想美國在印太戰略裡面它一直希望是維持區域的穩定的現場誰在台海挑釁我想中共在區域裡面的軍事擴張應該是主要的變數跟主要的衝突的分源我剛才聽到國民黨委員的質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
5266.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
5289.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
下巴都要掉下來啦那個論述是中共的論述欸台海是美國在搞事所以解放軍在保護台灣所以我們就不需要軍購我們不需要國防預算他有一套邏輯說著也許沒那個意但是進入到那個邏輯很危險在第一島鏈在第二島鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
5290.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
5313.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
自由民主聯盟不管是韓國日本台灣甚至現在菲律賓菲律賓被200艘中國的漁政船圍了兩個多月海巡船被中共的軍艦撞成要撞就撞到自己人還有越南啊還有澳洲啊澳洲在去年2月中國的軍艦跑去澳洲外海實彈軍演嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
5315.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
5336.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
所以在第一島鏈的民主國家為什麼成為一個安全網絡不管是川普2018年揭露的所謂的印太戰略架構或者現在是高市找苗要修改安保相關的法案或者是菲律賓或者好多國的二對二、三對三的會議唯一的理由就是中國在這邊的軍事擴張無視國際規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
5341.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
5354.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
侵犯他國領域灰色地帶威脅台灣是這些受害國之一所以我剛才聽到是中國在這邊挑釁啦美國在這邊挑釁叫美國不要挑釁啦免得大家很緊張 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
5356.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
5384.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
我想請局長你待過國安會 待過外交部現在在國安局你嚴正的態度是什麼我想基本上在整個區域的安全態勢來講中共的一個武力的擴張還是造成區域不穩定最主要的一個根源那我們也看到了美國的印太區友們不管是在安保防衛的合作議題上經濟安全合作議題上還有稀土供應的穩定度的合作議題上都已經發展出一個新的架構 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
5385.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
5413.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那主要的目的就是在反制西土聯盟台灣是聯盟之一啊是是所以也跟我們說明一下可能我也注意到最近在菲律賓進行的兼并兼演習是歷來參與國家最多規模最大的一次演習你提到兼并兼我額外問你一個兼并兼演習的當中賴清德總統從斯瓦帝尼的專機經過那條航線飛回來嘛就在兼并兼演習的範圍內啦我請教一個菲律院那個演習附近的區域 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
5414.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
5434.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那美軍跟菲律賓參與演習的方面第一個應該要被告知嘛有飛機要穿越嘛第二個有沒有提供保護的飛航對於那個總統的飛行安全事實上我們都有一個機制來進行友軍跟友方之間的一個通報我們總統的搭乘這個我們好朋友的專機飛回來美軍在那邊剛好進行軍演日本有參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
5443.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
5471.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
菲律賓也在那裡那在那塊區域的飛航當中有沒有提供適當的協助它本來就是一個國際的航道那美方他們的演習比較是靠近呂宋本島的海空域那所以在這部分來講的話美方他們的那個演習並不會去干擾或影響到因為那個飛航的路線就我了解我以前在六聯隊服務如果油料各方面問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
5472.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
5482.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
有可能是要落小港的這都有相關的整配計畫這都有我這個不追問啦其他會經過的部分我還是回到我今天要問的題目因為我剛才講如果按照那個邏輯美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
5485.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
5514.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
美國在第一島鏈惹事情所以金小胖的北韓發射飛彈是為了嚇阻威脅然後中國在維持著區域和平這套論述是中共的論述現在把它套到台灣這邊來還有台灣的在野黨這樣呼應然後擋台灣的國防預算然後在野黨的領導級的人物說習近平愛好和平這荒謬 這真的荒謬 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
5515.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
5535.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
這以前在國安局的話這個可能可能要cooking一些東西啊我回到我們現在要關注的川普即將訪問中國我看他的那個monster他的那個beast他的一些車隊都已經在那邊在做一些預言了我們現在比較關注的幾件事情第一個Rubio |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
5537.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5551.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
擔任第一個也許是定調的人他接受訪問昨天他取代了發言人的角色這故意的啦他一開始還開玩笑說我今天取代了這個發言人的角色他特別提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5553.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5579.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
台灣當然會在這個conversation的topic always is永遠都是的中國每次都要找美國談台灣的議題那他這邊特別提到說不希望對他說to Taiwan還有這個區域的任何地方有破壞穩定的事情發生他還提醒中國這個對美國跟中國應該都是符合共同利益的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5580.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5607.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那這裡面又牽涉到我們長期以來不管是六項保證以及六項保證的第一條第二條也就是不足您這個第一條沒有設定對台軍售的日期第二條沒有同意就是不會跟中國討論對台軍售的項目如果這兩條再加上雷根前幾年的雷根密件解密雷根密件解密說 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5609.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5637.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
美國沒有保證逐年減少對台軍售喔它是有個前提必須中華人民共和國如果它持續敵對威脅的態度的話美國那個逐年遞減軍售的項目跟品質呢是沒有要執行的那個是雷根密件這個都已經是官方文書了然後呢六項表證的第一條第二條在2025年美國的所謂的台灣保證法裡面它其實已經入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5638.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5656.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那我現在要請教的就是現在外界擔心的川普會不會跟習近平討論對台軍售的事情就我們國安局掌握的情資以及分析跟研判你們的觀察是什麼我想剛剛委員已經非常正確的提出來了昨天盧比歐 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5657.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5678.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
本人去參加白宮的記者會他就是一個非常刻意的一個動作那我覺得他的主要的目的是在讓美國對台政策能夠透明化以及一致性那他傳達的訊息主要在這裡所以他才會提到委員所提到的不應該發生任何會去破壞台海或印太地區和平穩定的事情發生所以你詮釋的是一個定調對這就是一個基本的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5681.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5705.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那他也很透明化的跟大家講他在跟王毅的通話過程當中有觸及什麼議題那他在把針對台海議題的基本的立場做一個定調所以我想這是表示美國我必須進一步追問既然他是一個定調我們可不可以就你們的觀察是不是川習在對談當中有關台灣這個topic不會超過這個範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5706.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5725.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
對 這也是這場記者會的一個主要的目的就是把美國官方不會有脫稿 超出區分之外就像我剛剛提到 他不是由發言人出來講他是由國務卿兼國家安全顧問負責國家安全 國務卿負責外交這兩個事務的主管的一個國務卿出來定調 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5726.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5743.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
所以他是重新來重申美國對台政策的基本立場是沒有改變具有延續性的而且表達對於中共可能會去破壞台海或印太安全的關切那這就是美方的一個基本立場因為他那個用字遣詞很精準喔是是是他是講說to Taiwan over anywhere |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5745.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5769.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
在這個Indo-Pacific region所以他是不希望中國對台灣採取任何破壞這個區域穩定的一個事情因為基本立場我們還是要小心啦因為川普有時候脫稿演出但是基本的美國跟台灣之間的互動的政策其實是建立在這一段話裡面脫稿也要拉回來立場非常清楚那我就要問最後一個問題啦因為時間關係那台灣遲遲不能在川習會前 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5775.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5795.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
通過我們國防特別預算我們看到不知道是暢酸華揚還是無能為力甚至於國民黨這麼多大咖都認為應該要通過結果竟然在川習會前看起來第四次協商破裂了遲遲不能通過甚至於年度國防預算延到現在都還在開始審查而已那 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5796.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5820.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
我要問的問題是不能在川習會前通過或者有一個定調台灣就你們的評估 國安局的評估台灣可能會面臨什麼樣的風險因為我們接待外賓 我陪同在旁邊我聽到太多次外賓一直在講川習會前如果不通過那可能會增加很多對台灣也許我們應該擔心的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5822.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5848.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那國安局的立場是什麼對 因為現在目前在印太地區來講各個國家為了應對中共的可能的一個威脅在國防預算跟經費的挹注上是越來越多這是第一部分那第二部分剛委員也在跟委員說明的是包括美國透過連眼聯訊像是見病間的方式他要達到的目的就是提升島鏈國家的區域聯防以及所謂的主角防禦來嚇阻中共改變區域現狀 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5850.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5875.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
在這種背景之下台灣是站在第一島鏈最核心的地方那承受來自於中共威脅的第一線那假如台灣沒有辦法展現自我防衛的決心的話它很有可能會造成外界對於台灣自我防衛決心的一個質疑第二個它會變成是整個區域聯防體系裡面的一個可能的一個破口那這部分它所出現的問題不是只有國防的層次的議題它會涉及到是戰略面的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5876.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5903.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那這次我們比較這影響很大你這個講的是它產生的影響那我的意思是說在川習會因為我們遲遲我們看了半天不知道為什麼會這樣子自己的國家國會在拖自己的國家的安全體系的提升川習會前沒有通過你們評估會有風險嗎對這次我剛剛跟委員提到的那在戰略面可能會造成外界質疑台灣自我防衛的決心那也會造成風險會在川習會前後 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5907.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5932.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
展現出來 展現出來也許我們看不到 他就不宣布啊本來答應的就沒有了啦 有沒有這個風險對啊 當然川習會前跟川習會後 那都有他相關的一個意涵在那我們當然是希望這樣的一個軍公案 假如能夠盡速通過的話那在這個部分可以讓外界減少對台灣在這方面的支持我還是很遺憾講 我們都希望國家安全 外交 國防 這個都沒有黨派之分 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5934.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5957.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
但我們聽到很多 甚至在野黨的同仁說應該啊 要通過啊 怎麼樣甚至侯友宜都說應該要支持行政院版結果我們看到的是 到目前為止不管是在野黨的藍 在野黨的白我們沒有看到曙光這個對我們來講是很遺憾的事情對 我相信從國家安全的角度來講我們希望看到這樣的協商能夠盡快有一些進展出來好 謝謝局長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5959.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5965.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
好 謝謝王定宇委員看起來國民黨要凌漢分裂了接下來我們請林祖英委員謝謝主席 主席有請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5984.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
6006.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
好 林委員早好 局長好 不會請您回答您和分裂的問題但是我要請您回答的是其實就像您所說的我過去一直以來都非常關注因為我本身是媒體出來所以對於媒體是不是在有意或無意間成為中國的在地協力者這是一個我們一直值得探討的問題那麼過去一直以來可以說是 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
6007.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
6033.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
要說指紋樓梯響沒有見到人下來又或者是我們沒有正確的實據在這裡但是現在從這個馬德案我們是不是真的可以找到一個證據那就是這個特定媒體不論他是自願或者是不情願他就成為了一個平台來幫中國當傳聲筒言下之意就是說馬德案我們看到的他是一個系統性的攻擊政府的官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
6034.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
6054.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
攻擊執政黨的政治人物而甚至於連在野黨的政治人物都變成了配合演出的角色之一而這個所謂的配合演出是主動抑或被動我相信相關單位都在調查當中但是就像局長您所說的個案我們不討論但是這個通案 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
6057.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
6077.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
是不是讓國安單位已經掌握了舊式紅色資金滲透而中國舊式扎扎實實的在做一個介入台灣選舉甚至於台灣的這個相關的應該說社會安定的這個部分而這個通案是不是讓我們已經拿到了一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
6079.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
6094.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
算是犯罪手法的這樣的一個模型而這個模型或手法局長是不是可以趁這樣的一個公開場合也說明讓媒體或讓外界知道好我想基本上中共對台的一個滲透它是全面性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
6095.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
6120.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
計劃性的、針對性的然後當然台灣因為是一個比較自由開放的社會那媒體就自然成為是中共希望能夠來吸納為協力者的一個對象跟目標那這個基本上的狀況是存在的那第二個是在處理這樣的所謂的通案過程當中我們第一個必須要有一些相關的事證那包括協力者跟中共之間有沒有一些相關指示或交辦任務的這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
6122.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
6144.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
情資或證據那第二個就是金流的交付那到底金流交付的情形是怎麼樣那協力者在接受這些金流跟指示之後他在台發展的網絡又是什麼那以及有哪些的違法的行為跟樣態那這部分當然也是我們在國內進行查處跟徵收的一個主要的一個重點的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
6144.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
6161.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那必須跟委員做說明的是中國這樣的一個網絡它已經發展出非常多元的一個脈絡去推動這種所謂對台灣的這種統戰滲透的工作那所以大概就本局來講一方面我們會統合我們國安情報機關做必要的查查 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
6162.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
6175.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
那有必要的話我們就把具體的證據來細檢由檢方來指揮偵辦大概我們現在我上次也跟委員報告過我們現在看到所有供電案幾乎所有供電案過去幾年我沒有記錯的話大概只有兩個案子例外其他大概都是由我們國安情報機關來發動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
6177.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
6197.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
我們因為跟國安情報機關跟檢察機關調查機關跟軍中保防機關我們各聯訪的體系所以在資訊的分享情資上這部分我們是做得非常的完整那第二部分剛剛也跟媒體朋友在做相關的說明我們國安情報機關移送到檢察機關的國安案件的起訴的起訴率有96% |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
6199.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
6224.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
那再由檢察機關移送到審理機關法院的定罪率有85%所以這部分也可以看到全政府在打擊這種共諜滲透的很具體的成效那在具體的成效的過程是因為有辦法掌握除了金流之外的這些指示的訊息資料都是很健全的對嗎這一定要有否則在起訴的要件他沒有辦法達成 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
6224.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
6243.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
所以這也是我剛剛跟委員特別說明的不管是情報機關檢調或是軍中保防這一塊我們是有一個非常綿密的網絡那老實講這幾年也開始累積一些我們的實地作戰的經驗不過我們必須要注意中共也不斷的在調整他的做法跟手法所以這部分我們不會放鬆會持續的來注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
6244.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
6252.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
好就像這個局長你所說的喔這個中共就像詐騙集團一樣詐騙集團的手法也是會隨著不一樣的工具不一樣的這個所謂環境它的樣態會做改變喔但是我們需要講的是當馬德案讓我們找到了更完整的這種所謂樣態的手法之後那我要提醒的就是像這一次總統成功的外交突圍但是從中國的媒體官媒就批評總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
6272.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
6295 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
是偷渡用偷渡這樣的字眼從中國的官媒出來之後台灣開始又有一些媒體名嘴開始引用這樣的說法跟這樣的論述也就是北京下指導旗而在台灣的媒體作為一個延伸者甚至於發聲者而這樣的所謂認知作戰的組合權喔那麼在這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
6295.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
6324.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我不知道國安局或相關的單位是不是也把它列入你們所謂觀察的手法甚至於接下來剛剛前面也有委員提到的就是川習會也即將開始而在川習會的過程當中包括昨天我們在立法院我們的軍購再次的破局而且在破局的過程當中你會發現國民黨到現在還在爭執到底要給多少軍購預算的這個版本而我們在協商的時候常常不只一次的說 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
6325.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
6337.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
條例是給一個天花板真正的條例空過之後預算還要進來可是裝睡覺不行啊他們就是一直堅持在金額上面打賺甚至於是從去年11月到現在這個版本送進來經過半年了他們會搞不清楚嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
6342.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
6345.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
原因就是因為現在也有說了因為要送給習近平當成川習會的伴手禮要讓他成為一個可以做論述兩岸之間就是一個和平不需要軍購的狀態言下之意 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
6357.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
6378.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
中國在下另外一個指導棋從講總統出訪是偷渡再到現在川習會之前要去醞釀說兩岸之間是和平的不要軍購而這種所謂中國北京給指令台灣在地協力者去延伸發展的這種組合權我想問國安單位是不是也有注意到 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
6379.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
6396.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我想委員沒有很正確指出來沒有錯誤的指出來也就是說中國在對台灣進行統戰滲透的同時他一定有搭配的認知作戰的手法在操作那這部分針對所謂總統出訪的過程當中我們有去做相關的正義訊息的查找我沒有記錯的話應該有將近40個問題帳號 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
6399.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
6416.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
不斷的重複的內容在到處傳散大概傳散了有400到500則不斷的在傳散那主要的目的就是希望能夠透過這些錯誤的資訊的傳散來影響到國人的認知那另外中共的官媒也透過相關中共立場的一個陳述來針對這個問題做一些批評 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
6419.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
6435.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
然後再引用台灣相關一些媒體的評論再反過來塑造成好像台灣內部對於總統出訪有很多的一些批評質疑的聲音那當然我剛剛跟委員報告這個手法對於我們的一個軍購的採購那中共也是有同樣的一個樣態在進行當中那我們這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
6439.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
6465.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
會不斷的查找他們這些正義訊息散佈的一個網絡以及主要的一些問題的帳號那假如說那個問題帳號是在國內的話那有涉及到違法的話那我們會啟動我們的機制甚至進行必要的約談那假如是在境外的話我們現在也發展出一個新的機制境外的問題帳號那只要有涉及到我們國安層級我們列出九類涉及到國安層級的話我們會通知電信商進行封阻讓他的問題帳號IP不能夠再繼續傳散正義訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
6468.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
6498.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
好就是本席要特別提醒的就是在這樣的一個所謂組合權的情況底下對於國安跟相關的這個警教單位當然來說這個負擔會加重但是找到了這樣的一個所謂犯罪的模式模型甚至於是整套組合權來影響台灣的政治選舉甚至於社會安全的部分的話我相信這個會有助於我們直接找到更多的線索而最後一個問題我想問的不好意思主席因為剛剛有特別提到就是除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
6499.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
6525.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
中國給指令之外當然還有金流但是我想問的是如果沒有金流就不能定罪嗎還是說其實事實上接受中國的指示來影響社會的治安甚至於影響我們的選舉影響我們的政治那這個是不是就可以定罪它只有中國相關的一個指示以及在台灣不管你是竊密或發展組織或是進行竊選的話這個還是可以成為一個法律的一個立案的一個成案的一個要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
6530.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6548.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
謝謝委員我們接下來請沈博洋委員上台諮詢好 再次謝謝主席 又請局長 謝謝我們請局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6558.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6579.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
因為這個要進入到預算的審查我問幾個跟預算相關的事項第一個就是這個服裝的問題就是說這個特勤人員的服裝那因為這一次我們這邊自己的預算中心有提到說似乎能夠延長服裝的壽命避免不必要的採購但是我覺得當然以我們的特勤人員來講應該也有他自己的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6580.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6600.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
這邊是否可以請局長稍微說明一下謝委員提到這個問題特勤人員他因為勤務非常繁重跟委員報告一下去年我們的特勤執行的維安場次有3600多場代表每一天平均有10場那在不同的維安的場合當中特勤人員他也許必須要更換他的服裝配合那個場合的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6601.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6628.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
今年可能還會更多對 所以它本身會有很多的一個服裝上的需求這是第一個第二個他們的執勤是從早到晚風吹日曬雨淋的情況之下都要執行勤務所以在服裝上是有些必要需求但是我們為了要節省經費的開支我們的服裝不管是工作服或是他的訓練服我們有分期程每四年我們就採購不同的服裝來避免到重複採購的狀況所以這部分大概有做這樣的一個規劃跟安排各位可以做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6629.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6655.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
因為我是認為我們的軍人我們的特勤人員這個對國家來講都十分的重要所以如果是必要的花費我是認為不要省只要是確保說他能夠有利就是他是確實能夠利用到然後耗損的時候能夠汰換我覺得這樣就可以另外一個就是說這個現在基層均值人力的補充就是說因為這個當然有提到說配合未來十年的這樣的一個禁用規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6656.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6671.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那但是在115年的時候呢我們的這一個招募的這個數目看起來好像是比較不如預期那當然我知道這個可能是一個系統性的問題那不知道目前來講是有什麼樣的解決方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6672.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6700.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
大概系統性的問題一個部分是少子化的問題那第二部分系統性的問題是因為國安局的工作屬性我們的要求比較多就這些志願役的士兵來講他不一定要到我們的單位來接受這麼多工作上的要求那另外跟委員說明剛才跟羅美玲委員在做報告的是我們的目標數會有降低的部分主要是因為我們的留營率有改善那以前因為人員的流失比較嚴重所以變成我們訂的那個招募的目標數比較高 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6701.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6729.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
但這點因為我剛剛已經有說明過了就是說我們在營區的管理的制度還有他們的服裝以及他們的一些輪班的制度都做一些調整所以流營率有比較好從流營來補足對 從流營的提升之後我們的目標需求數就會稍微降低一點所以大家有這種狀況因為人口基數的減少自然一定會有影響這是結構性的對 那流營的這個數目如果是能夠補足當然是最好 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6729.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6744.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那它當然不只是我們傳統想的津貼而已還包含它的福利還有像剛剛講的它的裝備等等之類的我們在軍方也是這樣子在這邊應該也是一樣就進來把這個提高看能不能解決這個問題好 謝謝文關心這個問題關心我們基層士兵然後接下來就是這一個這個是在講這個輪胎 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6747.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6762.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
再講這個特別中心這個警備車特殊輪胎那我看到預算中心有提到就是說呢這一個輪胎的這個價格那但是局長是否能夠說明一下比如說這個的用途還有呢它的規格是否有特殊性等等好 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6763.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6789.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
因為就我們的特行中心的車輛來講我們不是只有台北地區我們為了我們安危對象在全國各地的活動我們在全國各地都有相關的車輛的配置因為你不可能比如說到屏東我們從台北調車輛下去不是 而是我們在當地就有車輛配置所以第一個跟委員說明的是他的車輛的量體本來就比較大那第二個是輪胎因為涉及到行車的安全所以根據評估我記得應該是五年 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6790.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6816.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
五年到八年之間我們就必須要做必要的一個汰換因為車輛數目比較多所以這一方面也才會有這樣的一個輪胎的一個預算的一個規劃那特別當然那個輪胎的品質會我們會要求比較高因為你只要臨時車隊出狀況它造成安慰對象形成的延盪甚至造成有可能各種經滋擾事件的話那這個社會成本非常的高 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6816.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6839.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
好 沒問題 這個我覺得我們等到在預算的時候 詳細的時候再來討論我覺得這樣應該是OK那這個是跟發電機有關 就是說舉本部的這一個發電機跟科技中心的這個發電機它一樣都是發電機 但是看起來 我看它製造的這個廠商也是不同所以它的這個價格也不同 但是明顯科技中心的比較高 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6840.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6861.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那是否就是說比如說科技中心現在所配置的這個的發電機並沒有那麼多局本部有比較多嗎還是倒過來這個是否可以稍微說明一下就局本部在今年我們會採購兩部的發電機各是都是750千瓦的那過去居然替換的金額比較低因為只有一部400千瓦的 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6862.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6884.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那科技中心它是今年要替換的有兩部650千瓦的有兩部那科技中心它主要的是它的那個年限已經25年了然後零料件大概都出了一些狀況所以我們是希望做一個徹底的更新而且因為它年限已經超出比較久了所以它可能不只是只有發電機本身它連周邊的那些線路還有電盤這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6886.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6910.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
對 通通都要做翻新所以預算有稍微高一點那這個 但是因為它的就是說它650千瓦如果平均跟它單價的話它反而比750千瓦的要來得更低是因為說比如說是製造的廠商不同還是說是因為像剛剛講的它還包含一些比它比較大批的汰換就是比較長久的一個汰換所以在這個汰換的時候需要的一些工錢啊什麼這些這個的理由是什麼對 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6911.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6930.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這部分應該在發電機有另外編列那個翻修的工程費那對還有剛剛各位說明的管線配置的重新的更新的費用所以他如果有包含其他費用的話有可能這個平均單價是他的這個計算技術不同啊這個我們在詳細審預算的時候我們再來看細節 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6935.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6952.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
資訊提供給委員做參考因為我們要確保這些東西都是就是我們預算放在刀口上我不認為說這些預算沒有必要這些預算都是有必要的就是我們要確保每一個預算能夠用在正確的地方接下來當然剛剛因為儲運委員前面有提到借選的問題這個當然呢今年是大選年一定會越來越嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6953.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6975.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
這個我們等到之後應該我認為應該也會有專門的這一個專報在討論這個問題我們今年二月就成立了我們今年二月就成立一個專案來處理大選查查的一些違法的狀況那我們就在這個過程當中我們在立法院再來詢問相關的問題好 也謝謝委員關心這個問題謝謝局長 謝謝主席謝謝沈博亮委員接下來我們請王安祥委員上來質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6984.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
7001.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
主席好 有請蔡局長王委員長 局長早這一陣子有關高的地圖的部分引起很多大家的討論內政部劉部長也公開說如果有資安的風險會影響到國安他覺得應該要禁用 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
7010.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
7032.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那基本上好像影響國安這個部分好像這個夜館的部分應該是這個國安局這邊嘛依照國家情報法我記得去年的時候好像有幾種APP我沒有公佈所以你們現在有初步有對這個高德地圖有做了一些分析嗎高德地圖的部分因為速發部他們已經請資安院在做他的資安檢測那我的理解應該下個月會報告提出公開的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
7033.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
7051.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那我們這邊也有針對高德地圖的資安做我們內部的檢測因為我有關心我簡單說明一下大概在15項的檢測項目裡面有9項是有資安的問題的那這9項的資安問題包括他會持續的去收集你的那個用戶他的通訊錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
7052.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
7081.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
他的通話的內容他的即時影音視訊的一個狀況以及更重要的是他會回傳資料到中國的server即使你把APP關掉之後他繼續的傳送相關使用者的個資到中國的伺服器去所以他確實存在比較高的資安風險另外也許其他的外國製的APP也會有一些這樣的一個資訊的收集但是沒有像高德他擺明了就是說他的資訊是會跟第三方分享的 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
7082.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
7107.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
沒有,所以這個部分確實是存在蠻嚴重的治安的狀況所以局長就是指那五個構面有15項這個指標嗎?對,15項裡面有9項就是大家比較好奇的就是說它現在跟現在的比如說像這個一些MAP它的差異性主要是在哪裡?剛剛那個局長說的對,我剛剛有大概跟委員說過會有回傳嗎?對,它會有跟中國的那個伺服器的資訊的回傳而且高德它在它的跟用戶的 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
7109.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
7129.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
這個協定當中也特別強調他就是會回傳給第三方那我應該也知道因為中國基於他的官法制是會要求他的中國籍的企業必須要分享所有企業的資訊或是用戶的資訊所以這部分確實存在比較嚴重的治安所以局長現在還沒有發布那個因為未來會發布那個這部分我們尊重這是我們自己內部的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
7129.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
7152.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
但是對外的發佈我們尊重疏發部在做治安檢測之後因為去年那個APP的部分好像是國安部當時是我們來做的那因為這一次的高德地圖的這個個案那疏發部他已經有對外疏發部他要來進行那我們就不會越權尊重他的做法但是我們的內部調查報告的資訊也會來提供給疏發部做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
7152.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
7174.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
所以局長的意思是說現在初步看起來是有一些我們知道在立法院委員有時候關切尋答我們必須要有一個依據不是只是我們主觀的猜測是必須要有客觀的指標的查驗才能跟委員報告以上的情形第二個問題就是我想總統這次出訪碰到一些狀況現在已經事過境遷總統都已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
7180.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
7183.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
這次第一次中國採用這樣的手法 局長是不是可以 事前的掌握跟我們事後的一些預計可以跟大家做一些報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
7198.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
7210.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
各位委員大概就能夠報告部分做個簡單的說明也就是說在總統出訪之前大概我們國安團隊都會有一個專案來整合相關的情資也針對總統出訪做好相關的儀節規劃還有維安的整備 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
7214.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
7242.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那另外還有通訊安全的保障這部分我們都會做好規劃那當然也必須要排除中共外力的介入跟干擾那這部分我們又想定一些相關的情境那做事前的一個預判不過比較重要的重點是當有特殊情況發生之後我們怎麼樣來做必要跟快速的應處那這部分這一次因為有中共的一個打壓運用那個政治因素來干擾飛航的FIR的批准 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
7243.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
7268.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
這是以前沒有發生過的所以第一時間團隊經過評估之後為了總統的安全出訪行程是有暫緩雖然暫緩相關的計畫持續的推動所以後來才會有總統順利的到斯瓦帝尼來進行訪問那過程非常圓滿那國安局在過程當中我們也提供相關的情資在總統出訪期間國安會秘書長我本人跟國防部部長也跟總統做保密視訊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
7270.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
7296.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
會議來跟總統報告國內的情況讓總統可以在第一時間都掌握全局所以整個的過程當中我想我身為國安局的議員 國安團隊的議員我們予有榮焉來參與這項資料讓計畫可以順利推動因為後來採取的策略是用這個他國的飛機這個也是國人很關切就是說這個部分就一些情資或保密或者是總統的人身安全的部分這個也是局長是不是可以講的部分跟大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
7297.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
7313.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
因為我以管局長的身份我不適合去批評外國元首的專機他的安全性這已經僭越了我們一個中華民國政府官員的立場那就總統出訪過程當中我剛有跟委員稍微說明到不管是維安的整備或是通訊的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
7314.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
7336.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那在飛行的期間以及在總統車隊行進的期間以及總統在外訪期間停駐的行管我們大概都做好相關完整的一個保密通訊的系統讓總統可以隨時掌握國內的狀況包括JOCC軍事的一個動態甚至可以跟我們國安單位的重要的相關的單位來進行多邊的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
7339.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
7364.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
對 因為我們不是質疑別人的那個設備或裝備怎樣 而是說因為有一些畢竟現在有一些系統啦 尤其是communication的部分啦那我們比較擔心就是說 剛剛局長的意思就是說應該是沒有什麼問題啦就保密啦 或者是安全上大概沒有什麼問題而且飛航安全也有華航團隊的協助跟評估可以多做妥善的規劃是 好 感謝局長好 謝謝王委員 謝謝謝謝王委員 接下來我們請王建斌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
7377.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7378.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
好 謝謝主席 我們有請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7386.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7413.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
黃委員好 局長早安我想這幾天我們國安局同委應該是為了總統出訪真的是安慰 煞費苦心剛剛黃委員也有提到這件事情我們比較好奇是整個過程裡面從原本高調的宣布然後因為總統我記得我還在外交委員會問說會不會給我們驚喜 果然又給我們驚喜我想要了解就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7415.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7434.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
總統出訪這個是高度機密的這個國安任務你包括局長也提到他的行程啊 飛行路線啊 包括整個飛機上的狀況那個如果這樣子搭其他國家的專機 他的安全性這個是可以預測得到的嗎可以可以嗎 可以確保他裡面都沒有其他的東西嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7435.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7464.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
委員指的是那個飛行的路徑是不是包括這整個飛機的安全然後我們委員怎麼去控管總統出訪這是很重要的事情對假如就我是不是假如理解正確的話我大概分幾個部分跟委員報告一個部分是飛安的安全的部分那這部分剛剛有跟王委員做說明那華航的總機師相關的團隊都有進駐包括空服務員也有進駐轉機來提供必要的服務你的航程安排你的機組可以自然安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7465.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7466.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
這些東西從國安局的口中就像你說的是一切都在掌握當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7494.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7511.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那未來是不是要遇到中共打壓我們就要用這樣的方式那我們都要靠這個友邦的客機來轉接嗎以後是這樣子的模式我想我跟文說明大概有兩個部分一個部分是整體面的規劃總統出訪他一定有一個國安團隊的專案來做相關的一個整備第二部分是個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7513.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7527.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
對 個案的部分他可能每一個狀況會不盡相同那所以針對不同的個案他出訪的時機那這部分再針對個案有一個專案來進行相當的追訪那未來如果遇到中共再次的打壓的時候我們還是要用這樣的方式嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7528.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7554.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那就看未來的情況是怎麼樣我們也必須要做好完成的規劃才會同意讓總統來進行外訪的工作是 本人強調就是說其實國安工作其實局長你很了解它最忌諱就是臨時這種應變那種取代長期的這些制度你不可能因為每次那你只要遇到打壓你就要採取這種祕密模式那其實這對整個總統的安全是很大的威脅那另外就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7557.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7571.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我們的總統他不是靠轉機他不是靠轉機他不是靠轉機他不是靠轉機他不是靠轉機他不是靠轉機他不是靠轉機他不是靠轉機他不是靠轉機他不是靠轉機他不是靠轉機他不是靠轉機他不是靠轉機他不是靠轉機他不是靠轉機他不是靠轉機他不是靠轉機他不是靠轉機他不是靠轉機他不是靠轉機他不是靠轉機 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7582.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7609.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
委員你的意思是說就是最近巴拉圭的那個專期不是要在台灣嗎已經到了他抵達了對會不會又這樣子回去總統又透過這樣的模式去巴拉圭沒有啦我想相關的出訪的專案他不是臨機性隨性的啦我剛剛在跟王委員跟委員說明的是他一定是有一個規劃跟整備的一個過程那會非常詳細的來做比較多 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7611.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7630.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
出國這件事情本席絕對支持因為這是向國際展現我們中央民國主權的機會那當我們在致力在展現主權的時候我覺得還是要注意元首的安全因為不能把元首安全放在這個安排沒有很重視我們很重視這個部分要請局長這邊要再多多注意謝謝委員提醒我們很重視好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7637.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7650.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
謝謝黃建斌委員 接下來我們請許巧欣委員上台諮詢謝謝主席 我們是不是有請蔡局長我們請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7658.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7676.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
謝謝主席 薛恩好局長好 我想要請問一下就是說您對於國安局長這個職位或是說我們國安局這個系統您覺得它是屬於一個目前的就是在目前的還是在一個幕後的一個單位您是怎麼樣去界定您的這樣的一個工作的 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7676.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7705.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
跟委員說明一下我有幕前的也有幕後的因為國安局的國安局組織法還有我們情報工作法有不同的身份第一個身份是國家情報首長那這部分我們一般是站在幕後的在進行相關國際情報交流合作我們必須要尊重慣例跟雙方的互信低調的保密的在檯面下來進行但第二部分我有一個其他的身份是特勤維安的最高指揮官那這部分我是要站到第一線去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7706.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7729.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
所以在這部分我們的維安整備維安整備對 維安整備的部分我是站到第一線去做相關的規劃跟說明所以委員只要記得的話像我們每一屆的總統大選我們都會成立安委專案那國安局都會邀請我們外委會的委員來指導我們會有一個成軍典禮展示裝備那目的就是在讓大家知道我們整備的情形所以在這個情況之下我是要站到第一線去說明的 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7729.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7749.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
了解了,那因為呢今天大家也都相當關心就說史瓦帝尼出訪過程當中的這個波折,很多的波折嘛那在這個波折過程當中那也很慶幸的就是說最後能夠完成這樣的任務不管是國安局或是各個單位我想在過程當中你們都辛苦了 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7750.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7774.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那從我們立法委員的立場來說我們中華民國的總統能夠出訪到友邦這本來就是一個應該而且必然的事情過去也不是只有賴清德賴總統那蔡前總統馬前總統陳水扁前總統只要是中華民國的元首他無論他的黨籍無論他的政黨傾向那其實對於我們的友邦能夠來做一個比較緊密的互動 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7775.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7800.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我想這都是值得肯定的那只是說在過程當中我有看到這個新聞我等一下給你一點時間做回應那是這樣的就是呢有一些這個他當然也沒有具名但他也是所謂的情治界的人士他就了解說確實您剛講的沒有錯就是說國安局他必須要先去走訪採點還有你剛講的維安特勤的部分但因為有這樣的一張照片在 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7802.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7829.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
這是你們國安局公開的一個照片吧這是市國政府在官網公開的照片那他們在官網公開的照片好謝謝你告訴我因為這個媒體上面都寫說照片是由國安局提供的所以您現在第一個澄清的點是說媒體的照片不是由國安局提供而是在史瓦帝尼的網站上面也有都有還是都有都有都有都有就都有嗎對都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7831.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7849.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
都有就是都有那就不是單方面史瓦帝尼國安局這裡也有提供給媒體朋友做參考是吧那是這樣子的所以說這個從過程當中那變成某種就是說當任務還沒有完成之前也就是說總統他還沒有成功地抵達史瓦帝尼 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7850.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7868.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那我們也都會擔心就是無論哪一任總統都一樣都會擔心過程當中受到一些的這樣的一個擾亂而無法抵達過去無論哪一任的總統大家都會有這樣的憂慮而最後大家也都不負眾望的能夠完成這樣的使命那邊有人就在問就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7870.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7885.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
如果當這個任務還沒有完成的時候我們就發佈了相關的照片會不會增加相對應的風險您認為不會那可不可以說明一下理由因為還蠻多人關心這個事情謝偉給我這個機會來進行說明這大概是我們現在的團隊在作業上總統出訪他有各種的規劃那國安 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7892.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7903.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
局長的一個採線那也是在整體規劃過程當中那我們現在的做法是像委員剛剛說明的包括在總統大選我們的維安整備我們會在總統大選結束之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7904.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7929.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
進行之前我們就開始做一些相關的說明那這個也一樣你直接回答就是發布這樣照片的必要性在哪裡好不好必要性第一個它有外交上的必要性因為以國安的首長到斯瓦帝尼他們非常的重視是總統接見抱歉國王接見以及副總理接見所以在接見完之後時國的官方網站就已經公佈了接見我的資訊那副總理德拉德拉 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7929.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7951.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
也在他個人的網頁上公佈了這個資訊所以有對待公佈另外跟我們報告當地媒體的頭版是在報導我到訪所以他有外交上的意涵也就在總統到訪之前我們危安整備工作已經做好完善的準備無論是事前或是事後的評估你們都不認為這樣子提前的公佈你的來訪會影響到後續的總統的出訪我們之前的作業大概都是這樣做但是我跟我們報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7956.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7984.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
也就是我們在相關的新聞訊息的提供我們還有特別提到國安局跟當地的安全機關有合作去打擊當地中國籍的跨國詐騙集團200名原因是在哪裡原因是因為死國現在有大概1000名的中國的僑民但我們也很注意他會不會在總統出訪期間有經滋擾的活動所以我們還特別對外說明說我們跟死國安全單位的緊密合作來嚇阻可能的經滋擾的狀況發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7985.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
8006.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
這是我刻意的規劃的好 了解那我想今天主要是給您一個時間做這樣的說明因為確實有人做這樣的質疑那另外我想要問一下就是上一次我在委員會質詢的時候在講到這個總統維安特勤就是他們有偷竊囚的這個案子那我們都覺得就是這打擊到了國安局的這個形象 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
8007.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
8026.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
那上一次您回答的時候是說這個國安局的人員是知情不報不過北檢的起訴書現在提到就是說他不是知情不報而已啊他是提供公事包演會配合的犯罪行為所以他這個跟知情不報我覺得又有點落差他這叫做共同作案吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
8027.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
8045.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
你們要不要修正一下上一次你在這個委員會的時候你給我回來因為我聽到當初是叫做知情不報的時候我以為他只是說因為知情不報我們一般理解是什麼就是我知道他做這件事情那跟我無關所以呢我就裝作沒看到或是我就沒有往上報這叫知情不報 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
8045.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
8063.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那但是呢 北檢的起訴書裡面寫的是國安局的人員是提供公示包幫大家掩護這叫做配合犯罪行為我覺得兩種的層次上面無論在法律上面或是民眾的觀感上是截然不同可不可以針對這個部分再進一步說明呢我會要謝委員再給我這個機會來說明我當時在詢問的時候有提到我們因為是擴大調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
8067.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
8076.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那所以除了原來那一位縣執部資源的情員已經被撤職查辦移送罰辦之外對我們後來又查到有兩位那我當時有跟委員說明我們第一個認為他是知情不報而且我還有跟委員說明我們經過法務單位的評估我們認為可能涉及共犯我當時要講這句話但是你沒有說說因為你覺得那個事情在偵查當中所以你沒有去把他的這個過程當中做一個解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
8096.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
8122.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
那等到這個起訴書出來之後上面有明確的做了這樣子的一個說法之後那你才能從這個偵查中的案件把案情講出來那現在因為北檢已經有正式起訴了可不可以因為我時間也不太夠可不可以30秒的時間把國安局的人員他到底配合了這樣子的一個不良的事件那做了什麼樣的事 什麼樣的程度就你可以說的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
8123.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
8147.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
因為還在偵查過程那我跟委員說明的是當時因為我們是只能進行行政調查我們沒有司法調查權但是我們在經過法律評估之後他在知情不報以外他有各種的說辭我當時還跟委員講他在被懲處的時候還進入了我們的行政訴願的程序他還去打了訴願對 他去打了訴願關訴所以我沒有辦法去轉述他的說法但是法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
8148.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
8176.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
團隊的評估是認為他有涉及共犯所以我們就已請檢查機關來進行進一步的調查因為檢查機關他可以去調閱現場有 因為他現在北檢起訴書出來了對對對他就聽到我剛剛所說的這個部分那部分才能夠補齊包括他可以去調閱現場的錄影帶以及去針對偵訊調查過程當中再去判斷相關人員的說辭來做比對來做出最後的一個司法的裁決所以這部分我們是抱持一個尊重的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
8177.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
8182.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
我了解了,謝謝好,謝偉,謝謝好,謝謝小秦偉,謝謝局長接下來有請陳冠林、趙偉上台質詢我們先請局長,謝謝有請局長,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
8209.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
8231.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
特務院長局長好其實剛剛幾位有提到川喜會那我針對川喜會特別先來詢問一下那台灣議題應該是會被討論到那討論到的部分目前我有聽到有幾個是特別針對台灣的措辭從不支持台灣獨立或者是反對台灣獨立或者是相關的措辭這些有沒有掌握到他們可能會觸及到這些的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
8232.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
8257.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
對 那我剛也跟那個王定宇委員在做說明那我也同意他的觀察就是昨天的白宮記者會由國家安全顧問跟國務卿盧比歐來親自主持來說明到他跟王毅的通話確實有提到台灣議題他有提到這件事那但是他也提到了他對於台灣議題的基本的立場也就是說不能夠發生任何破壞台灣或印太安全那我覺得這是一個基本的定調 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
8259.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
8270.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那你目前掌握到的資訊因為我剛才講了兩個不同的措辭一個是不支持台灣的獨立一個是反對台灣的獨立這是完全不同強度的話語那 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
8270.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
8294.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我方的立場就是要主動的告知美方哪些說法會造成台灣的傷害哪些不說不會造成我雙方利益的傷害所以我不希望說我們被動的等待事情的發生我們要主動的去做所有的外交 國安 情報上面的溝通這個部分我們現在做到什麼程度有 這部分我們有自信他們不會講到不支持甚至是反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
8294.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
8312.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
對 我們會透過各種的管道 像委員所提到的我們台灣有我們的一個立場那也希望美方在跟中方互動過程當中那可以來秉持既有的對台政策的基調那我再次強調昨天盧比歐的那個基調大概就是一個把美國對台政策透明化以及他 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
8313.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
8335.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
具有延續性的這樣的一個立場來做一個非常公開的一個說明好 主動他們主動來那個說明我們主動的要告訴他們我們必須要還有時間盡全力然後把這樣子的哪些是我們的紅線要主動的去跟他們把立場講清楚那避免所有傷害台灣的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
8336.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
8352.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
接下來我剛才有聽到局長你剛才有提到關於AI深圍的影片然後你說要反制那有說相關的研發請問是局本部在做這樣子的研究那在主本部在做這樣子的程式的研發都是我們自己局本部 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
8353.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
8366.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
有,我們自己有發展你們有足夠的能力跟資源去做這些事情嗎?你們覺得你們會比民間做得更好嗎?這部分也有跟民間在做一些諮詢來瞭解到底怎麼樣的軟體設計會比較好這也有一些討論跟溝通這一個介面是烏克蘭的Brave1那來下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
8377.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8405.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
那這是什麼基本上原則上就是我之前我十年前的時候在國安會的時候提出希望說我們盡快的來去仿效美國的DIU那時候我有寫相關的報告那也呈上去那經過了十年之後那我們總算有這樣子的一個平台那這個平台在美國DIU的時候是基本上是向民間徵案那徵案可以用各種的科技解決的方案也有包含情報解決的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8406.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8430.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
那首先我們國家的DIO現在連網站都沒有那就是落後人家又是10年那每次都落後人家10年10年前人為言輕10年後我再講大概也是沒什麼用因為大家做事的方式或者是更新的方式總是要落後人家一代但沒關係現在烏克蘭有一個叫BRAVE1那這個平台也是一樣我們來直接到大概下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8431.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8450.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
Brain1是什麼原則上就是把前線需求民間科技測試導入串起來的平台也就是它不僅僅只是我們要無人機我們要哪一個軟體不是的它是所有國安目前遇到的問題跟挑戰剛才我們提到的情報的議題它是不是也可以用這樣子的經過北約 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8452.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8478.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
還有合作機制延伸到北約合作機制的方式來去把這個平台收案來去做原型測試來去做輔助跟採購來去做前線的回饋也就是說我們不用在自己重新再發明輪子嘛你一定會想說那我在我們就是看深圍的影片我們自己在研發這樣子的軟體你們不是我們也不是我們沒有最好的工程師跟軟體工程師最好的永遠都是在民間但是我們首先要經過驗證 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8480.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8499.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
也要經過這個安全背景查核那安全背景查核就是我們兩年來一直在談的問題我也有送出修法但是還沒有真正的通過這也不是大家的問題就是法律上面的修正就是需要這樣的事件這樣子我們才可以快速迭代快速導入我們各種情報上面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8500.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8527.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
問題剛才提到的這些特勤人員的行程外線剛才提到的這個身為認知的作戰剛才提到的反滲透與人物質的這些更新等等的這些我們你說要AI你說要人工智慧什麼樣的人工智慧軟體怎麼樣去導入還是國安局自己一個一個研發嗎我們國安局有這樣的人員去研發嗎如果沒有類似這樣子的平台的話我們永遠都是自己說自己做那等到我們完成一個軟體之後大概已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8528.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8551.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
大概也是離這個現況也是差很久的所以如果沒有政府聯合協調的平台串聯國家軍方產業跟投資甚至串聯串投企業進來的話那我們永遠都慢下一步那沒關係我再說一次我建議國家安全局思考一下協調一下因為裡面有包含情報有包含應該說break one我們再重新到最前面那幾頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8553.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8572.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
在下面兩頁你可以看到它裡面是包含你要一般的民間產業可以主動去參與它在烏克蘭的測試它一般的民間產業不僅僅限於烏克蘭包含經過驗證國家的廠商都可以進入我認真的思考就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8574.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8596.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
我們的怎麼樣去應用這個架構它不僅僅是國安局包含國防部都可以去思考不過說實在話我們國防部的整平師現在的這個DIO還是在他們的政府採購網下面然後偶爾用那個非常無法理解的介面那那那去徵案來去提出解決的方案都要不知道民國幾年所以我知道局長你這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8598.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8624.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
都有在接受新的資訊那我是希望說能夠思考一下新的架構可不可以簡單回應一下就這部分謝委員的提醒就在開發一些新的軟體或AI的程式怎麼樣來建立起公司部門的一個協力那這是我們努力的方向那公部門當然是提出我們在業務上的需求以及我們的經驗那但是部門這部分他們掌握一些先進比較創新的技術那我們怎樣來整合進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8625.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8637.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
那不過因為國安單位還是比較特殊我們還是會針對那個廠商他的一些安全的查查以及有沒有涉及到中共的背景這部分也是我們在建立公司協作過程當中一個關切的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8639.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8665.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
需求定義安全審查測試驗證快速導入今天不是我要做哪一個軟體我要哪一個APP不是嘛就是這一個Pipeline它是一個工具箱我們要建立的是一個工具箱那政府的機構可以從工具箱裡面拿到你要的工具但是什麼樣的工具箱什麼樣的工具要怎麼樣經過測試跟安全審查怎麼樣去快速導入這才是我們現在遇到的最大問題那如果我們現在不做大概又要再落後十年等到我們做出一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8667.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8687.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
D.I.O然後這個D.I.O的界面連網站都沒有兩年的到現在你還是同樣的圈子嘛同樣的人去參與這個投標競標嘛你哪裡來的新哪裡來的新創哪裡來的創新的產業對不對也就有這部分的提醒那你的架構事實上也是我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8687.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8715.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
跟廠商在合作過程當中我們很注意的一些流程然後注意一下我們現在有聽到就是我們的國安人員在總統的隨乎這些那他們已經被建立人物誌了就是每一位他們的長相他們的背景他們的社群那中方都有一個一個去掌握並且透過他們的社群媒體來去探知總統副總統重要人物的形成 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8717.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8738.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
那除了這一個非主動因為他們是被動的被中共去找到的之外再加上他們之前滲透的這些人員他們可以做複查就之前有些被滲透的人員包含行程全部都給中方嘛所以這個是很綿密的他們現在不是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8740.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8761.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
他們不僅僅是要知道總統跟副總統去了哪裡他們要知道總統副總統的人跟的去哪裡也要知道總統他們也知道總統副總統見了誰之後他背後的這一些政商跟教育人文暨網路的關係我是很擔心所以這個希望再麻煩一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8761.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8785.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
好 因為委員一直長期關注這個問題 也跟委員報告一下我們前一陣子才跟我們所有特勤人員 包括總統府世衛室跟我們特勤中心所有的人員都要簽名來上我們的治安課程那一支一支手機不好意思 我上次剛好是在安排的座位在總統還是副總統的後面的後面然後前面有幾個特勤人員我就看他們在用其他的LINE啊 現場在用啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8789.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8792.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
這部分我們再來做了解看狀況是怎麼樣謝謝委員提醒謝謝謝謝委員謝謝局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8817.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8825.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
接下來我們請牛許廷委員謝謝主席這個國安局局長有請我們請局長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8832.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8862.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
劉委員好局長午安 辛苦了這個賴總統這次的這個出訪啊這大家都關注你是不是從幕後走到幕前有 剛剛齊小信我也知道 花了很多時間但我比較想問更多這個實務上的一些操作上的一些狀況嘛就是說你要先到或者是基於他的慣例也好或者是你有些工作要先做這本席都可以理解的這是很正常嘛但問題就是說這個我比較好奇的是你當初你人在這個史瓦帝尼嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8863.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8888.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
再說事前工作的時候 你是什麼時候掌握到賴總統當初按原定計畫出訪可能會受阻你什麼時候掌握到這個訊息受阻我記得是在出發前的兩三天才臨時有這個FIR的問題因為本來FIR都已經經過了同意了那他是在出發幾天前才又把它撤銷所以他是一個突發的狀況所以你兩三天前就知道這件事了 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8889.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8892.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
可能會有變故所以我們國安團隊就發現有這樣的狀況之下可能會影響到總統的非安所以才會有府方對外做公開的說明很多人在過程中都在談這個事 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8904.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8925.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
這個中華民國的處境本來就比較艱難這個你喜歡或不喜歡它是存在一個事實嘛這我想你們在崗位上工作啊也都會面臨這樣子的壓力所以本席都一直強調就是說不管大家政治立場是怎麼樣但是不管怎麼樣在談這件事情的時候的風險控管跟實際上你展現的應變能力是很重要的所以本席要非常嚴肅的提醒你如果是在兩三天前就已經知道這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8926.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8955.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那後面國內還有大張旗鼓的宣傳的時候它其實有可能造成反效果啊局長對不對因為就我們了解好像是出訪前一天還有報紙做頭版頭嘛說我們即將如何盛大的進行外交突破那你如果其實內部高層是有掌握到兩三天前可能會有變故的時候這樣做是一件好的事嗎局長你談一下你的想法是什麼我可以再勸一下時間啦應該沒有在出發前一天還做這樣的動作啦或者是兩三天啊在那個前一季如果是有變故的情況下還大做宣傳是好事嗎沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8955.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8978.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
因為在有狀況情況之下我們當然就要做一些可能的應變那看有辦法來解決這樣的一個問題透過各種的外交管道那第二個才會發現可能那個FIR的同意還是有問題的話那這就涉及到非安了那才會去考慮到是不是要來暫緩出訪的時間這個受阻的時候第一時間我是講我們非常尊重國安單位因為總統出訪安全第一嘛不管任何政黨的領導人或總統我們都是注意他整體的維安 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8984.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
9003.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
當時人又在國外可能有變故在國內很多人都想要借這種題目來炒作政治議題這些東西其實對於中華民國的總體國安來講它其實都是客觀風險所以本期特別要問一下這件事情要釐清一下這件事情我是有一點擔心的這個東西有些時候要低調有些時候你實質上的東西能夠掌握回來才是最重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
9003.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
9018.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
譬如說我本席就不贊成他還在那邊講說他到底算不算突破某一些層面你算扳回一層嘛對不對因為前面受阻反正你說去不了啦好大家顏面掃地但是後面你找到別的方式可以去處理那我姑且講他就要扳回一層但是本席都不希望這次都踏實的做但低調的做 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
9019.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
9042.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
外交也好 國防也好 其實用這種心態來處理是比較務實 也可以兼顧風險控管跟委員說明一下 主要出訪的目的還是在於維持現狀啦因為他本來就是我們邦交國嘛那我們的跟邦交國交往的方式 不能夠由中共來做政治化的一個超過我們都不接受任何打壓 但處理這件事情要非常的智慧而且如果提早掌握訊息 其實是應該有智慧的去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
9044.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
9061.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
實務上的戰場啦 沒錯 各種狀況我多問一下 反正這是尾安 我們就講一下尾安的一些細節比如說這次飛機的部分 也是大家很好奇的因為突破了特殊的狀況 採用了類似ATM模式出去中間當然伴隨著一些風險 比如說就有發現專機回程的油量可能是吃緊了因為專機是A340嘛 相對舊的機型 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
9068.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
9092.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
那它的航程啊,理論上是這個7400海浬嘛但這次因為我要繞開一些障礙跟一些挑戰嘛所以我當然是用繞路的方式處理,這實際上都是對的但我們就是問一下,相關當初的配套有沒有安排比如說,這飛機上因為航程的增加,你有使用比如說增程油箱啊,像這些配套嗎如果出現什麼變故,你們當初有沒有安排轉降等等,還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
9095.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
9113.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
這個因為這機型在這以前是華航在飛嘛但是這機型老舊其實也都退役啦所以直飛的當然是外國機師啊這國安局當初在整個這個航程尤其是返程這一部分的國安配套我給你一點時間你說明一下吧我剛剛有幾個問題你要回答我想基本上這部分都有做一個完整的規劃啦齁那委員大概關切的有幾個議題一個是那個飛航過程當中機師人員的部分對你們有沒有說安全調查這個理論上都要先做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
9122.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
9141.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
這都有另外也是因為有華航的總機師的團隊是有進駐的同步進駐對 他們的同步進駐那也整個飛行計畫都有華航的專業意見來做評估那也包括空服員也是由華航來提供包括食物都是由我們自己本身來提供所以這部分大概是這樣那另外是有涉及到航線的部分對 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
9142.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
9159.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
這部分也是有涉及到華航跟史國的一個機師的團隊的專業評估因為史國在王室裡面是有一位親王專門在規劃相關這種國王專機的運用還有相關的一些所以這一次你有安排比如說增程油箱這樣子的一個概念嗎因為航程看起來是蠻吃緊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
9161.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
9174.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
也就是說經過我們的一個估算它的航程這是沒有問題因為它本身就是一個四個引擎的一個飛機它本身就比較安全性比較高那第二個飛行計畫飛行計畫可能必要的臨時的突發點這個都 迫降點這是飛行計畫裡面本來都有都安排 這部分委員放心這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
9185.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
9197.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
局長你覺得未來啊這大家在那邊講ATA模式非常厲害我講你你講半圍一城我都沒有意見但是如果講說這是突破等等的那是不是未來都要我們在維持現狀我剛剛在跟我說我們是在維持現狀未來我們還是都會用ATA的方式出訪嗎沒有這個部分要看每一次的狀況那以這次的狀況來講我們當然是希望能夠讓總統可以順利圓滿的一個出訪那過程當中也要去考慮到可能中共因為已經發生了第一次的一個干擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
9214.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
9241.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
FIR的狀況所以我們後續當然是要比較小心一點大家當然不滿意但不滿意它還是存在所以我們就要用有智慧的方式去因應如果沒有ATA的方式因為你必須要保密到家嘛就是說當然前端是沒有辦法宣傳的我這是落地才做宣布那相對來講很多人有提醒國安專家或者是對於這些有研究的人講ATA比如說我總統因為前面都不能講要完全的保密才有辦法落實ATA的精神那完全保密的時候尤其在飛航的過程之中啊它的通聯啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
9242.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
9270.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
你有沒有辦法掌握有沒有辦法守密啊有沒有辦法順利聯繫我想這都是ATM模式背後的很多很多的配套措施我願意相信國安局這個認真做事嘛把這相關的配套都安排好每位總統我們都是用這種態度每位總統都要用這樣的態度沒錯的本期就是要特別提醒不用特別針對哪一種模式去做特別樣的宣傳甚至是考量我們的情勢有些時候要非常有智慧來因應掌握什麼樣的情報 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
9273.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
9298.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
這我想都是我們的政府應該要非常非常嚴肅面對這件事情也才會讓國安局好辦事好不好我今天問了一些跟比較細節比較配套的東西但國安局看起來有做充分的準備就希望啊這個好好加油這是一回事我們絕對給你們打氣是沒有問題的但我也要提醒啊這未來有外交等等相關的議題敏感的議題的時候我們也希望我們的政府可以稍微有智慧一點保留更多空間給你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
9299.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
9307.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
一切都要以安全第一樣,實務上可以做到的事情,那才是真的事情,好不好?對,安全是我們國安局第一信條,謝謝委員,謝謝謝謝劉許廷委員,那接下來我們請賴世保委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
9329.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
9332.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
謝謝主席 先請有請陳局長我們請局長好 謝謝主席 大委員好局長你好 國安局是不是掌握管道國家的財經的安定各方面的社會的安定 你可以管的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
9355.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
9380.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
我們說的是國家情報機關那假如涉及到經濟安全供應鏈安全有相關國際發展的趨勢或潛在的威脅評估這部分我們會來注意你有沒有注意到最近有一股台灣來講的話股市拼命漲拼命漲這個你會不會以國家安全的角度來講萬一崩下來的話會不會造成整個社會就一團亂現在我特別提供一個數字你要知道19歲以下的 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
9384.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
9406.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
開戶數七十幾萬啦中學生都在挽股票啦這個我們國安局有沒有注意這個老實講某種程度萬一啦齁我們當然需要他去預帳可是他也這個你就知道這上上下下啊這個對這個年輕的未成年就來就介入這個東西我請教你你蔡學長有沒有關係這個事 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
9407.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9437.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
我跟委員說明一下謝謝委員提醒有這樣的一個社會現象但是因為國安局我們還是要拿捏那個分寸因為股市它畢竟是一個自由交易的市場那假如我們有時候太過於用國安的理由來做一些介入或是評估我們會比較謹慎一點不過也謝謝委員提醒我提醒你這個事情就是說以國家的安全包括比如說人員的能源現在美伊是不是已經差不多 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9438.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9440.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
所以你們掌握到的訊息大概渴望很快的 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9457.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9482.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
真的聽到嗎沒有正在談因為美方的關切是在於伊朗必須要放棄核武那以及必須要解除對核武之海峽封控但是伊朗強調是他擁有發展核能核武的基本權利以及要求美國撤銷對伊朗港口的封控所以兩邊在這部分還在還在磋商有關於這個核能的管制部分美國是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9483.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9502.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
要五年 伊朗是二十年 對吧對 雙方還有包括還有相關的原料的管制還有現場的檢驗那由文記組織來檢驗這部分都還沒有我想剛才應該有文提到這個題目了就川習會大概快要上來了嘛 是什麼時候川習會啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9503.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9521.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
現在暫定是在五月中旬大概五月十六號左右大概只停留不到四十個小時吧比較短 時間比較短 而且有沒有到其他地方王毅跟盧比尤都提到台灣議題要上桌這句話是很有學問的 什麼叫上桌 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9524.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9548.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
主要是委員提到因為是盧比歐提到他跟王毅在電話會談的時候有提到台灣的議題但是委員也注意到昨天的白宮記者會盧比歐是親自出來說明他的對台政策就是不應該發生任何破壞台海或是印太區域和平穩定的事情發生所以他還是有對台問題在川習會之前做了一個基本的定調 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9549.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9558.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
所以就是status quo維持現狀我想我應該很了解美國的政策立場維持現狀是一個最基本的一個我能不能這樣講美中的關係越好對台灣越好這句話對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9564.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9593.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
沒有 這要看怎麼講啦 也就是說你不同意嗎我知道你的一個邏輯推論但國內有不同的看法也就是說美中關係假如很好的話會不會台灣有可能被邊緣化假如美中關係很不好的話會不會台灣變成要站到第一線去承受中國的壓力但我個人認為美中關係現在是處在競爭跟合作都有的階段美中關係現在好不好你告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9594.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9616.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
沒有 競爭他不是好或不好 他有的議題好 有的議題不好競爭關係不好啊對啊 有的議題是很不好 我今天早上在跟媒體說明他的結構性的爭議是沒有辦法根本解決他現在是在做管理 在做一種關係的管理你們掌握到信息有沒有說 川普會不會討好中國大陸 講出反對態度 會不會掌握到信息 有沒有這個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9617.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9642.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
對 我跟委員說明是盧比歐已經在川習會之前把那個對台政策立場做了一個非常清楚的說明那我想這代表美方的一個基礎所以就是status quo就是這樣子對 就是status quo你講得沒錯另外一個小問題這個也是很重要的就是有人有提到了說本來我看美國媒體報導第二批的對台軍售的發價數大概141美金 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9645.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9667.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
有沒有可能在川習以後被取消這個你們有沒有掌握到我想那個媒體各種的討論我們當然會注意但政府之間的溝通還有那個軍購案的推動他有一定的程序那這部分應該委員可以理解他這個不可能說隨時有任何的這種太大的騙局這會影響到美國跟盟友之間的一個關係所以不會啦所以有個小問題就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9672.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9695.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
就是根據通保法第七條國安局長是有權利直接下令監聽的沒有沒有沒有跟國安法沒有通保法的規定我批核之後我還要送高等法院的同意要經過法院的程序所以你為什麼問這個因為共諜太多喔不是你們要去抓不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9695.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9705.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
是是是 我要批核 但我批核之後還要走法院的程序由高等法院來採核 才可以啟動整個通訊監察可是你可以引力行 你可以發動這樣子對 我們的國安情報單位會針對辦案的需要最近有發動嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9710.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9731.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
這個部分大概有需要我們就會發動所以基本上隨時在發生嗎對 隨時在發生要有要件才能夠送到什麼要件包括你對於他共諜案的一些基本的案情案況那有相關的呈現上個月你有發動嗎 上個月只要有需要都會發動所以隨時在發動對 有需要就發動謝謝賴委員謝謝賴委員那接下來我們請馬文君委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9747.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9747.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩請局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9755.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9761.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
今天也非常多的委員在關切賴總統他附飛的行程受阻的狀況因為到非洲友邦也是我們現在唯一的一個到史瓦帝尼最後雖然在5月5號採取保密的行程 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9777.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9789.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
然後也搭乘使國國網專機的這樣的一個突破的方式完成總統任內首次副飛出訪的這個任務可是在這過程當中我們發現一些問題那未來會不會造成可能是 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9795.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9799.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
大概會變成常態化這個是我們比較擔心的還有這過程當中我們的處置作為或者我們事先掌握的狀況好像是有一點問題因為我們也觀察到就是說局長在前一週已經赴使國去採點那就這個部分16日也在媒體有相關的報導那局長去採點的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9820.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9845.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
照理說而且媒體也出現了應該是所有的一個準備都非常非常的完善那才應該不會有任何的狀況發生那我們到最後其實像這麼有把握然後已經都在媒體公佈的狀況之下總統出門前一天才宣佈取消而且像這樣子的一個做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9846.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9870.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
我們現在國安局作為國家最高的情報機關而且所有相關的重要任務都要掌握不管是對岸也好或者國際動態也好那現在卻被因為提出來的原因是大陸施壓嘛卻因為這樣然後直接就取消這樣的行程那究竟他的問題在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9871.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9900.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
好各位報告一下就總統出訪國安團隊都會有一個專案做事先的規劃跟準備那包括我個人到現場做現刊採點那這也是我們的SOP的一部分那另外是我到現場之後因為我本人除了是國家情報首長以外也涉及到是維安特勤的指揮官所以國家情報首長的身份會要比較低調一點但維安的指揮官我們一般是站到第一線去做好整備計畫所以我再到 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9901.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9916.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
訪此國之後就國防接見副總理接見他們政府的官網也馬上公佈了接見我的資訊所以它本來就是一個外交儀節的公開行程這大概先跟委員說明的那第二個委員是提到的是中共的干擾那以及我們事前是不是有預判 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9917.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9924.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
當然在總統出訪的專案裡面我們各單位都會提出一些可能的狀況來做一些相關的討論但是掌握相關的狀況以外在狀況發生之後怎麼樣來做及時的應處這才是我們工作的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9933.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9957.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
那以委員剛剛所提到大概中共對於FIR的干擾我跟委員報告啦我們是有透過管道去進行彌補啦我看能不能在通過之後被取消之後能夠再通過那過程當中去知道中共的住室真的是找當地國的外交跟國安系統去施壓要求說必須要取消不然的話他們會進行一些禁忌的包袱所以這是有點突發狀況局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9958.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9964.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
所有的突發狀況都是我們應該要預作因應他們會用什麼手段我們不曉得因為什麼手段他們都可以用或者甚至國際動態都可能隨時造成影響包括可能隨時有一些戰爭的風險或者有一些其他突發的風險都有可能可是我們沒有辦法去預估像這樣子的狀況所以我們能做的就是我們有相關的備案這是我們重要的應該的一個處置作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9987.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
10010.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
所以在這裡我們現在比較我們看到後續的一個方向包括我們第二個一個處置的方式就是要借到德國跟捷克結果他們也都沒有同意我們甚至只給他兩個小時去做決定是不是有這樣的情況那這一塊可能是媒體的報導這一塊我們國民團隊並沒有證實我們的備案是什麼如果這個是媒體的報導那備案是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
10014.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
10042.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
我們一定都有備案啊如果那三個國家突然說不給我們過那現在我們的所有的作為大家都說有備案那如果不是德國跟捷克那備案是什麼所以我們第一個是跟委員說明的是那三個被施壓的國家我們有透過管道去接觸第二個是也有其他的航線但其他航線的部分我沒有辦法去公開證實是不是委員提到的報導的國家那再來才有所謂死亡專機的接受所以確實是有各種不同備案 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
10043.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
10053.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
如果第二個備案不管現在沒有辦法證實說它是不是可是如果是的話因為空穴不來風今天你一定要備案如果備案還是失敗的話這是很大的問題而且這兩個國家我們會覺得這個可能是一個很大的警訊這個也是國安單位應該要去重視的 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
10063.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
10068.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
因為德國我們台積電已經去那裡設廠我們甚至把我們最好的就是包括美國包括德國包括日本我們選擇這三個地方我們讓他去那裡設廠而且我們一直宣稱我們跟德國的關係也都非常友好然後在互動上面也都是比過去可能有更多的一些可能在管道上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
10087.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
10102.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
大概可以有一些更好的一個溝通的橋樑可是德國也沒有同意那捷克就更難想像了因為捷克在過去這幾年來尤其蔡政府跟像之前蕭副總統其實他們都曾經到過歐洲去演講那他們對於很多國家 不管德國他們也去啦所以像捷克 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
10111.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
10128.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
對我們採取拒絕的這樣的方式我想這個是不可思議這也顯見我們過去的外交努力或者我們宣稱的這些歐洲國家對我們非常友善而且非常支持我們這顯然是不一樣的一個結果那就這個部分國安團隊會有什麼樣的一個想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
10130.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
10140.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
對 因為這次跟委員說明了這是媒體的報導那我的身份我不可能針對媒體每一個報導都去評論而說明政府的一些沒有 局長這個不是評論喔這個如果他們兩個國家他們發生的狀況因為這兩個國家比較特別你不可能去找別的國家嘛跟你沒有這麼多的互動然後你過去沒有這麼好的一個交往捷克就是因為我們所有包括我們的投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
10155.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
10160.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
還有包括捷克我們也做了很多很多投資啊我們也跟他採過了很多的東西不管在國防或者其他的東西還有甚至俄烏戰爭的情況底下我們還透過捷克不管是官方或者他的民間NGO的團體也好我們做了很多很多的一個雙向的一個努力尤其我們的付出也非常多 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
10176.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
10178.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
如果這兩個國家出現這樣的問題這不是評不評論的問題是如果這樣子的發生對我們來說是非常嚴重的打擊第一可見這個國際的態勢可能是有些轉變的因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
10193.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
10220.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
美國大概都已經調整他們有一些的方向川習大概已經很快的就要碰面了嘛那這個在國際的決定上面就對國家的可能在他的方向上面其實可能都會有一些相關的影響所以這兩個國家是非常重要的尤其在歐洲所以這個部分我們還是要請局長就這個部分去說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
10220.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
10244.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
好,對歐關係我們會持續的來重視也跟委員說明,我自己曾經擔任過駐歐盟的代表所以對歐關係我們會非常的重視那至於這個報導的狀況,因為我沒有辦法去做證實那也請委員可以理解那不過委員在提醒的是,對歐關係除了經貿往來以外怎麼樣來外溢到更全面的關係,包括在外交上的聲援跟支持,這個推動的注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
10246.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
10263.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
總統還沒有出訪之前這個部分你可能可以做保密或者不去證實可是當回來以後這個已經牽動到我們可能跟歐洲我們所有過去的外交關係或者我們所做的努力或者像整體的國際風向它的轉變這是國安單位必須要清楚說明的 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
10269.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
10293.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
這並不會影響賴總統他後續的就是他如果是剛要去那當然有很多其他的考量可是現在他已經回來了所以這個部分其實應該要清楚的說明因為這個就是他所謂的備案如果沒有備案你只是針對說三個國家他不同意以後我們再請他盡量的同意那個就不是備案因為你 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
10294.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
10323.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
事先根本就沒有掌握到說他可能會不同意這是第一點第二個總統後來他可以順利已經可以出訪那表示還是有其他的備案可是卻沒有在我們這裡面因為他是先暫緩以後才在一定有第二個備案也是失敗以後你才會尋求這樣子比較遠道的一個方式所以我想這個部分你照理說應該我們不要只有二 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
10323.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
10326.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
因為這個事件發生以後未來會不會變成犯例那可能有三有四這個都應該要準備的所以就這個部分我們還是提醒因為今天局長還沒有具體的說明德國跟捷克的這個狀況可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
10338.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
10344.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
已經回來了這個部分必須應該要公開的說明因為他已經沒有什麼機密這個牽動到我們所有的支出還有我們所有的往來還有我們所有對歐洲的努力應該還有什麼樣調整的空間這個可能是大家要做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
10356.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
10383.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
我想對於總統的出訪我們基本的原則還是在於安全尊嚴便利跟舒適啦那不同的一個備案那我們會來做最好的一個評估看哪一個方案是最好那我們最後當然選擇的是由國王的專機那由特使副總理來擔任特使來台灣那再迎接總統到使國訪問然後再用專機回來那我們覺得這樣子符合安全便利還有安全尊嚴便利還有舒適的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
10384.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10388.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
這個部分這個有關團隊去做這樣子的一個規劃跟努力那個沒有問題安全本來就是絕對的那尊嚴其實到我們邦交國沒有什麼問題啦可是現在用這樣的方式讓大家覺得是沒有尊嚴這些去替代的方式我們做的是別人國家的國王的專機照理說我們有自己的專機這個部分我們希望未來可能還會再有發生的可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10412.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10415.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
那應該要怎麼樣去做因應這個可能才是應該要重視的那另外還有一個齁我們接主持一點點時間因為這一次我們看到那個預算裡面我們在之前已經發生過幾個一些性騷擾的事件那也上了媒體嘛就是我們有那個國安單位的還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10437.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10463.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
像我們的小組的組長都有發生這樣的一個事件可是我在我們的預算裡面沒有看到性別預算這樣子的一個編列那今年的預算編在哪因為之前局長有答應這個部分要特別重視可是我們連預算都沒有看到我們不知道我們可以做到什麼有這部分有編列我們通常剛才第一那個預算有編在哪裡編在哪個項目跟我說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10467.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10486.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
報言在公開預算裡面我們包含了三個工作分支計畫那相關的這個有關於性便宜預算的部分包含聘請外部專家學者來去演講外部專家學者你們本來就有啊還有有關於性便宜這類專題的部分的專家學者還有相關的一些設施的改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10488.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10493.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
一些可能出席費用就是有一些參與會議的費用其實是全部都含在那裡面那從過去到現在都有可是你們沒有針對性品的這個部分特別編列相關的預算這是第一個第二個我們看到這個外部委員的部分我們那時候也特別提到因為國安局是一個一個非常同仁非常重視服從的一個單位所以我們希望可以有外部委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10516.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10535.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
的一個原因就是這樣因為你如果都是內部的那大概都大家會認為你是官官相護或者沒有辦法做到一個非常公平或者公開透明的這個狀況可是我們看到外部委員好像也沒有按照我們原來要求的有有有 各位委員報告一下我們局面是有性平專案小組的設置要點 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10536.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10553.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
那他有提到了我們在六個委員當中有兩位是外聘的而且還有規定到性別的比例所以外聘的兩位我們也都是女性的委員所以在六位委員當中有三位男性三位女性都按照那個作業要點的規定來聘任對因為局長我們那時候就是要求這個要做調整因為你過去這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10556.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10565.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
但今年顯然外部委員還是沒有按照我們的你到時候確認以後確認以後那再做詳細的說明好不好這個部分我們希望我們既然已經有發生這樣尤其國安單位是非常重要的一個形象的一個單位而且他負責這樣子的一個維安那整體如果再發生類似的狀況然後又不受到我們國人的信任那對我們的打擊跟殺傷力甚強這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10584.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10607.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
最簡單的如果都沒有辦法落實那我們都遑論說我們想要做的更好個人報告一下在那個性平的專案成立之後委員會針對我們內部的各種軟硬體的建置也會提出一些建議那包括建立性平的廁所各方面我們都有用我們相關的一些預算來支應這些性平委員提出來的要求也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10607.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10612.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
我們比較不擔心這個啦那個硬體你去設置我們現在說的是當你發生這些事情的時候怎麼樣可以去做一些追蹤改善或者甚至公開透明的一個解決的方案不要有關關相護可是我們現在還沒有看到如果有再會後提供相關的資訊好我們把那個設置的要點還有實際的 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10626.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10643.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我們沒有要設置要點就是你今年的預算編了沒我們的外部委員到底有多少個他佔多少比例因為如果我們內部的還是佔多數那大家還是沒有辦法去信任這個部分我們之後再提供再請提供 謝謝謝謝馬文君委員 接下來我們請邱志偉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10662.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10690.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
謝謝主席 是不是邀請國安局蔡議長邱委員好蔡議長你好這個高市找苗首相最近在出訪亞太地區的國家先到越南 越南在河內發表一個PoE大概2.0最新版的自由開放的印太戰略 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10690.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10712.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
他把過去的安全或者經貿的合作擴大到數據、能源、關鍵、AI等等海底電纜、衛星通訊所以是全方位跟國家安全相關的細節全部都在FOIP 2.0的範圍之中那台灣是第一島鏈的國家跟台日關係又那麼的友好先不談在國防或者是安全上面的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10713.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10735.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
我們從這個韌性方面的合作 韌性的領域包括能源韌性 海底電纜 或者通訊的韌性等等這個已經很具體的把這些FOID 2.0的內容跟亞太主要國家 包括澳洲 包括這個越南那國安局有沒有針對高市首相所提的FOID 2.0的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10736.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10756.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
視為一個重要的議題評估在其他的項目比如說通訊的韌性關鍵礦物或者是AI或者數據能夠跟日本的Wave能夠對接把台日的關係能夠融入在Wave我們也是Wave裡面重要的參與國 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10758.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10759.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
一個部分是針對那個海嵐安全任性的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10779.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10802.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
台灣跟日本都是島國那對於這種對外的通聯很重視這個海欄的安全那這部分因為台灣已經承受了很多中共在這方面的威脅日本也很想藉這種經驗有沒有台日合作的可能性有些沒有辦法公開的證實但我只能講這部分是我們的規劃那第二部分是還有包括海上的安全因為中共的海上揮帶襲擾台灣跟日本同時都是受害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10803.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10823.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
那所以我們相關單位有確實針對中共海上洗腦的一些作為還有一些相關的樣態來交換一些雙方的經驗所以你剛剛提到海底電纜跟海上安全對那關鍵礦物跟能源部分是不是也可以加強合作好 這一部分我們比較還有在注意的是包括像資安AI這一塊資安AI對 那這一塊因為是台灣的強行因為有三個領域了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10825.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10844.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
我覺得能源部分也可以 包括天然氣的供應 油源的供應等等也可以合作把南韓也拉進來 關鍵礦物同樣也是如此我們都是關鍵礦物的非生產國在美國有一個關鍵礦物的重要夥伴的一個台日都在裡面那衛星通訊也可以合作 另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10850.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10873.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
這個CPTPP也很重要我們今年要加入啊需要日本如果可以幫我們提案成立這個陸會的工作小組那我們就往前跨了一步這部分我想國安局也把它列為這個台日未來這個Forever 20年重要的內涵之一另外這個日本的首相或者他們的整個政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10875.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10888.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
針對國家安全的相關的戰略有提出一些新的看法安全保障主要的他們的依據國家安全保障戰略國家防衛戰略防衛力的整備計畫從戰略到戰術執行到防衛力的整個執行計畫都很明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10895.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10918.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
你一年之內 目標啊 目標一年之內來改定好 先把這個關於他們國家安全保障的這些主要的依據做一些的調整之後他們主要放在這個無人機的大量導入 AI的活用一個新的戰法第二個重點是巨戰能力 就持久戰的能力啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10919.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10947.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
另外怎麼樣去在防衛費用的水準能夠提高然後把這個經濟安全也把它納入裡面這個部分這個國安局有沒有相關的評估大概跟委員報告的委員剛剛講的沒有錯在三個國安戰略文件當中那高市首相在上海之後他做了一個蠻結構性的一個調整那第二個委員不知道有沒有注意到他針對防衛裝備出口的原則也在上個月下旬也做了一些變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10949.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10969.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
對,所以這個也是一個很重大的安保政策的變動這個,他那個救難輸送警戒監視的掃海對,五個類型那如果殺傷能力的武器這個原則上是可能的可以可以,因為這一次的要能不能與反,要經過他們國家安全會的審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10970.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10995.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
所以跟我們報告的是現在的日本防相小權正在菲律賓訪問那他也跟菲律賓的防長在討論日本要出口那個R52級的護衛艦給菲律賓然後日本也在評估那個最上級你現在五類型過去沒有辦法輸出現在主要是非戰鬥目的的他現在已經解除了 廢除了那有關於救難輸送警戒監視掃海這些防衛性的裝備非戰鬥目標的裝備 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10998.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
11015.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
台日有沒有辦法進行合作 或者能不能從日本移轉給台灣因為這個不是國安局的業管 比較是國防部的但是國安局就情報工作 我們來評估 這我們來做整體評估你要知道這個問題 你殺傷你武器移轉大概有它的困難再下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
11019.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
11038.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
防衛裝備移轉三原則不管是防衛性或者殺傷力武器它一個條件就是說要地盟國才能限定地盟國才能限定地盟國有17個地盟國台灣不是17國裡面那我覺得未來是不是可以努力一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
11039.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
11049.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
能夠跟日本簽訂這個協定最起碼從非戰鬥性武器防衛性的武器他測管之後那五項跟海上安全有關係跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
11053.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
11072.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
跟這個輸送有關係 跟監視 掃海這個就是FOIP裡面的內容嘛 海上安全嘛對不對 跟這個海底電的安全所以這個如果能夠先簽訂可以從日本有更多救難輸送警戒監視掃海等非戰鬥性的五類型的這些防衛裝備也可以移轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
11073.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
11085.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
我覺得對台日是很好的事情尊重委員這方面的意見在雙方的合作有很多的想像空間因為國安局是情報機關我們會針對各種的可能性來做更進一步的評估也是重要的幕僚機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
11095.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
11121.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
那裡面有多重要的國安會議你們應該把這部分跟相關的單位做一些分享或者做一些討論嘛我不要求說一定一步到位可以到殺傷力武器這不太可能啦那最起碼為了VOIP能夠落實台灣是扮演重要的角色你VOIP落實你這個防衛裝備移轉三原則裡面的非戰鬥性的五類型對台灣是有幫助的對台日的共同安全是有幫助的我覺得這個國安局 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
11123.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
11123.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
11143.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
11163.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
0欠勤委員0欠勤委員0欠勤委員不在已登軍諮詢委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束委員口頭諮詢未答覆部分或要求補充者請國防國安局兩週內已書面答覆委員有指定期限者從其鎖定以上如有涉及機密部分請確實應相關保命規定辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
11165.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
11180.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
15年度中央政府總預算關於國安局收支公開及經濟部分本日完成報告及詢答令則其繼續審查預算提案於5月19日中午12點截止收件本日會議到此結束散會 |