| IVOD_ID |
17419 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17419 |
| 日期 |
2026-05-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-26-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-05-07T08:37:11+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-05-07T13:54:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:16:49 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6856c7ff8226c1adb82f0b09886a6aa8fbe92d343e5acb26ceb2d56576c8b5eb01b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-05-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。
二、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管預算。(公務及非營業特種基金預算案)
三、審查勞動部函送財團法人職業災害預防及重建中心115年度預算書案。
【所列預算案，僅詢答，115年5月15日下午5時截止收案】
【業務報告及討論事項綜合詢答】
【5月4日、5月6日、5月7日三天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:37:11 - 13:54:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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現在繼續開會本日會議稱為一 邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況並被質詢二 審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管預算公務及非營業特種基金預算案三 審查勞動部涵送財團法人職業災害預防及重建中心115年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1560.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1587.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
預算書案業務報告及預算審查事項採綜合詢答方式進行接著介紹在場委員王振旭委員盧憲宜召委介紹在列席的官員勞動部洪森漢部長陳明仁常務次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1591.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1615.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
那勞動力發展署黃玲玉署長陳士臻副署長老公保險局白立貞局長勞動基金運用局蘇玉清局長職業安全衛生署林玉堂署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1617.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1644.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
勞動及職業安全衛生研究所王厚成所長綜合規劃是丁玉珍市長勞動關係是王厚偉市長勞動保險是陳美女市長勞動福祉退休是陳維琛市長勞動條件及就業平等是黃綺雅市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1647.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1662.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
勞動法務司副會支司長秘書處林美玲代理處長人事處江碧玲處長政風處徐慶泉處長會計處林美信處長統計處梅家苑處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1677.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1693.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
資訊處劉淳坤處長財團法人職業災害預防及重建中心李伯昌執行長行政院主計處公務預算處李培源專門委員基金預算處劉雅飛科長 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1700.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1723.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
在部長報告前 請做以下宣告115年度勞動部主管公務及基金預算案及勞動部所屬財團法人預算書案委員針對審查之書面提案請於5月15日下午5點前以書面送交本委員會辦公室接下來請勞動部洪部長報告並就預算審查四項併案說明時間20分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1736.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1745.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
主席各位委員先進那各位記者朋友大家好今天很榮幸在提出本委員會的業務報告那首先先就整體的勞動情勢提出說明就勞動參與概況從114 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1748.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1758.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
到3月的勞動力平均為1204萬3千人較114年同期增加2萬8千人勞動力參與率平均為59.59年生0.27個百分點而性別勞參率差距減少0.29個百分點就業人數1164.4萬人較同期增加2.9萬人失業率下降0. |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1774.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1798.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
一個百分點薪資概況分析125年1到2月實質經常性薪資平均數為44,021元較124年同期增加1.49%接著就本部近期政策推動重點進行說明為因應美國關稅貿易政策不確定性對勞動市場可能造成之衝擊本部在去年8月13日發布 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1799.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1820.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
因應國際情勢支持勞工安定就業辦法推動多項加強支持勞工安定就業措施以放寬適用對象增加補助額度或延長受理期間等方式來強化勞工就業協助另自115年度新增委託經濟部產業發展署辦理製造業最低工資補貼方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1822.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1831.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
而今年在1月1號起勞工每個月最低工資有28590元調升至29500元每小時最低工資由190元調升到196元估計約247萬勞工受惠為強化勞工病假權益保障本部也已經修正勞工請假規則從四大面向保障勞工請病 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1852.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1866.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
請病假的權益避免勞工擔心請病假遭受不利對待而抱怨上班加強保障勞工健康權而從1月實施的育嬰留庭照顧彈性化心智內容主要為育嬰留庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1867.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1890.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
以日申請以及家庭照顧以小時申請來希望受僱者兼顧工作和家庭為強化性別平等工作權益保障新增性工法視訊諮詢服務讓勞工能有一個兼具專業隱私便利的諮詢管道為因應我國少子女化趨勢以在去年12月2日訂定勞工生育補助要點推動勞工生育補助方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1891.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1917.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
老保生育給付加計生育補助至10萬元那年預估10萬的10萬胎的新生兒家庭受惠為擴大育兒職場建置推動契托333政府來幫忙新制透過三松榜三加碼三新增等對策持續升級企業托育支持新制已於今年5月1號上路而為保障外送人權益這個外送專法以 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1918.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1925.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
於115年1月21號金總統公佈定於今年7月21號實施那本部課證研議本法實施細則外送服務契約應記載及不得記載事項及外送員終止契約經濟補償發給辦法等執法內容並規劃於本年度6月底前完成相關法制作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1937.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1962.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
另為鼓勵勞工自願提早退休金及落實退休金基本生存保障115年3月25號修正發布勞工退休金條例細則施行細則另外一方面在持續降低職業災害強化安全衛生管理及提升職場安全文化三大核心目標下我們推動強化職場減災行動計劃結合各界資源積極推展各項 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1963.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1983.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
降災相關作為落實保障工作者安全並推動職災勞工及其家屬法律權益協助方案強化訴訟輔助措施協助職災勞工或其家屬得到有效行使其權利而在面對國際供應鏈對防制強迫勞動及公平招募的原則下 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1984.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2008.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
本部在115年2月13號發布企業防治強迫勞動參考指引並協助企業接軌國際公平招募隨著家庭結構改變及雙薪家庭的增加我們也放寬未滿12歲子女家庭聘僱外籍幫傭資格提供育兒家庭多一種協助家務的選擇本部已同時規劃相關配套措施並盡快完成法規修正與系統整備 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2010.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2035.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
接下來 向各位委員報告115年度施政計畫推動與執行內容在加強營造友善職場環境方面將持續檢討最低工資推動友善工時制度並落實職場性騷擾防治機制加強防治年齡歧視並持續支持企業建置友善育兒職場環境在確保勞工保險及退休金制度穩健運作方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2036.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2052.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
為協助穩定及維持基金水位本部從109年起連續7年編列預算撥補勞工保險基金在政府撥補及多元基金投資下截至115年2月老保基金累存餘額為1兆4702億元為確保勞工保險制度之穩健運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2059.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2062.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
條例第69條及第69條文已於115年1月21日修正公佈將政府撥補及追蹤支付責任入法並建立定期財務檢討機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2075.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2080.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
勞退救治的主要提撥率已達99.82勞動基金投資方面截至115年2月勞動基金運用規模為8,854億元累計收益數是5,107億元為拓展運用潛在勞動力為在提升婦女勞動參與方面持續推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2095.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2113.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
婦女在就業計畫鼓勵婦女精進職業技能重返職場針對中高齡者持續落實中高齡及高齡者就業促進法以及中高齡者及高齡者就業促進計畫來協助續留職場至於青年就業方面持續強化推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2114.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2130.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
投資青年就會方案第二起統合11個部會資源協助青年順利進入職場就業另外也持續推動跨持續推動辦理跨部會合作解決缺工問題辦理各項創業協助措施創造在地工作上工機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2131.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2151.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
在外国技术人力引进部分推动跨国劳动力精进方案自今年1月起扩大留用制造业资深移工转任外国技术人力之比率并推动制造业加薪本国劳工增加移工名额机制兼顾制造业基层人力需求及提升本国劳工薪资与就业条件另为强化 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2152.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2166.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
直接聘僱服務量能增設職聘聯合服務中心的新據點而移工流財總共中心也新增職聘服務使流財職聘能夠一戰完成在推動公平穩定勞資方面本部持續推動各項輔導勞工籌組公會組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2170.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2188.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
辦理獎勵公會簽訂團體協約並新增提供職災勞工調解前法律諮詢及移工調解期間之同意服務及輔助資源擴大勞工法律支持措施另外我們也修正勞資爭議法律及生活費輔助辦法強化職災制 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2190.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2218.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
重傷或死亡案件的這個輔助補助此外治安法部分條文修正也與於去年12月19號金總統公布主要聚焦在營造源頭的防災包括承攬安全管理職場霸凌防治提高處罰額度增訂違法公布等五大重點以建構職安衛防護體系而在策進職場霸凌防治制度方面本部也克正 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2219.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2242.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
延提相關配套機制建置職場霸凌案件通報系統並規劃擴大辦理宣導調查專業人才培訓等相關措施115年度本部將全面執行強化職場減災行動計畫加強推動各項減災策略與作為並強化職業傷病防治與職災個案主動服務以保障工作者的安全與健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2243.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2253.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那我們會持續來經營相關的政策那希望讓每一份努力付出的勞工朋友都能有更穩定更幸福的工作與生活那以上謝謝各位委員指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2259.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2280.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
好 謝謝黃部長的報告現在開始詢答做以下宣告一 有關本次會議各項書面資料 均列入紀錄刊登公報二 本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘 列席委員4加1分鐘三 10點半截止發言登記四 委員如有書面質詢 請於三會前提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2281.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2300.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
預期不受理 五 暫定10點半休息10分鐘 六 尋例本日不處理臨時提案 現在請登記第一位林瑞群召委發言議員請謝謝主席 我們請洪三安部長好 也請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2305.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2330.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
林委員好部長早那5月1號勞動節全台大概將近7000名的勞工上街遊行當天我也代表民進黨到場直接聆聽勞工朋友們的心聲跟建議那遊行的其中一個訴求就是勞保我們的勞退薪資的急劇提高當然根據勞保局的一個統計截至今年2月 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2330.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2349.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我們的投保最高級距已經有374萬人 佔全體的35.9%現行投保薪資上限只有45800元將近三分之一的勞工都卡在這個天花板只能被迫高薪低報 這顯然不合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2350.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2365.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我們調整級距事實上是2016年那這10年來都沒有動 那現行上限45800元的時候 早就跟不上新制的現實 針對勞工的訴求 想問部長勞動部現在的政策規劃是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2368.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2384.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
各位委員報告因為勞保它是一個社會保險它具有所得重分配的一個功能那投保薪資又是計算保險幾戶的基礎所以有一個上限的一個金額的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2385.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2409.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那確實我們在老保的局劇最上限45800是在105年的時候調整的那主要是考量到我們只要一調整這個上限就會馬上增加我們財務的負擔那尤其是我們的老年一次幾乎是用最後的三年或者是年金採60個月所以這個財務的部分我們必須要來考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2409.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2425.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那這個議題我們知道勞工團體非常的關心所以我們也一直在就這個對財務的影響跟我們勞工權益的這個面向來研議當然這樣講的如果勞保級據證條件有太多顧慮的話 一時難以 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2429.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2456.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
推動 可是現行制度下 舊保的投保集聚也是準用我們的勞保的 那勞工高薪低報的問題一樣存在 那這也是在失業給付跟我們育嬰留庭津貼等補助上實際領到金額跟真實薪資有很大的落差那今天我們也看到報紙說那接下來我們的勞動部要去研擬那是不是也可以把這樣子的一個政策 因為我現在看報紙 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2457.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2460.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
不是這麼清楚那是不是可以 真的我們希望能夠這兩個脫鉤 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2463.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2487.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
可能跟文說沒有的確因為老保有他在財務上面的壓力所以其實在老保的薪資上限上面當然我們願意思考各種可能性可是這部分的確就會比較審慎一點那現在大家在講到最保險的這個頭髮薪資上限的部分那我們的確正在目前正在研議也在評估那是不是讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2488.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2496.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
舊寶的新上線能夠跟老寶這邊來去做脫鉤那我們自己初步 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2497.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2523.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
評估是認為這是有可行性的那尤其是現在大家在申請運營留庭那的勞工朋友越來越多那的確其實對於可能一些相對比較薪資比較高的勞工來說如果把投保薪資就舊保的投保薪資可以再拉高一些的話其實對於他們在薪資給付上面也會有多一點的空間所以這個事情我們會積極來研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2525.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2536.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
好再拜託我們的勞動部齁因為我覺得如果讓舊保保投保的那個集聚跟勞保脫鉤的話真的讓事業給付跟那個育嬰留庭的經費都會有機會再提到這個我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2541.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2560.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我覺得總是要往前進一步讓勞工感受到說那政府事實上是有考量到他們這一塊那部長接下來我就想談我們的就業保險法的失業給付的問題就保法授權勞動部在經濟不景氣導致大量失業的時候可以公告延長失業給付 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2561.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2578.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
可現行啟動的門檻呢事實上是非常的高必須要就保失業率連續四個月3.3%或者是失業率連續四個月沒有那個降低的話那這個辦法從訂定到至今連COVID-19疫情期間衝擊都從來事實上是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2581.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2600.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
發生過可以去這樣做 當前國際局勢跟就業市場的變化越來越快 當初定的一個門檻已經過於僵化難以及時因應我們的實際狀況 我認為這個制度應該更有彈性才能夠真正發揮效用那部長有沒有辦法勞動部可以來推動這個機制的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2601.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2616.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
跟委員報告就是我們救保的立法目的或者是他的歷程或者是他的資源的運用的順序都是希望我們先來穩定勞工在市場上面然後促進他的就業所以我們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2618.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2644.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
就是穩定優先以延長失業給戶的機制來為原則所以我們救保的制度在因應經濟不景氣的時候我們是透過調整雇用安定措施的啟動標準來協助勞工來續留職場所以如果在整個失業的狀況有持續的嚴重或者經濟狀況沒有改善的時候再會延長失業給戶所以我們是穩定就業為先所以我們剛剛才 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2647.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2673.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
委員才剛剛提到說我們雇用安定措施有放寬那失業幾戶就在看雇用安定措施的一個狀況那過去我們的條文就是連續四個月跟八個月要在救保失業率達3.3這個標準是參考日本跟韓國的一個標準那未來我們也會再看看再兼顧剛剛講的救保的財務的負擔或者是我們整個就業市場的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2674.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2681.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
跟對勞工保障的功能 可不可以考慮就是比照顧用安定措施的那個修正方向 嚴厲調整我們的延長失業 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2683.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2710.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
給付的那個啟動機制納入多元的一個指標其實就強化即時性這樣的工具才能夠真正在關鍵時刻能夠派上用場第一個其實就像委員說的其實公安訂措施在去年因為這個因美國的關稅的狀況其實我們做了一些調整那做了一些檢討所以我想制度的檢討我們會一直來持續進行那委員關心的事業給付的延長 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2712.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2740.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
的這個門檻跟標準我認為我們也可以來再參考一下各方的意見但是我覺得重點的原則還是剛剛市長說的因為我們其實就保其實制度的一個最重要的核心的精神是希望能夠更大的促進就業所以在這裡面可能會有一些先後順序上面的思考但是如果有一些制度長期以來我覺得我們並我們都願意開放性的來那是不是可以往這個方向去討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2742.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2756.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
再麻煩我們的勞動部這邊那謝謝部長 接著我要想跟你討論一個比較棘手的一個狀況就是在台灣有一群外國人因為母國存在戰爭或者是政治迫害的風險只能留在台灣尋求庇護 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2757.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2781.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
必須在台灣境內工作賺錢才能活下去可是按照現行的一個制度這些人一旦工作就會因違反就業服務法的第43條未經許可工作的話面臨裁罰拘禁甚至驅逐出境所以部長想問一下我們有沒有辦法保障這些人的工作權為什麼這樣問因為這些來到台灣庇護的外國人明明大家就是很想在台灣能夠好好生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2782.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2796.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
也有意願跟能力來投入台灣現在很缺工的產業可是因為政府不發給他們合法的工作證只能被強迫來打黑工就算遭到雇主不當對待也沒辦法對外尋求協助所以部長這類對這類人 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2799.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2816.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
在臺灣的勞動處境勞動部目前有沒有掌握有沒有相對應的處理策略跟我們報告其實因為這個議題從我自己在當立委的時候就我相信你一直很關心人權那其實在今年初我們其實有請移民 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2817.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2844.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
內政部移民署來提供相關申請庇護的名單因為第一個還是我們自己沒有辦法自行來認定還是需要移民署來做身份的認定那所以據我們目前知道的是移民署也在今年的3月的時候來提供申請庇護者的名單給地方政府那所以如果這個申請庇護者在臺灣生活期間因為經濟的需求或者是一些從事工作的這些狀況那 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2846.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2874.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
如果移民署這邊在身份認定後那我想我們會請地方政府那他的勞工主管機關來審做個案的情節來減輕跟免罰但關鍵會是移民署的身份認定他只要他那邊認定了我們這邊其實就可以來處理因為去年臺北市就有個案例啊尋求我們庇護的外國人因為在境內工作就被依著那個就業服務法來那個裁罰後來那提起訴願後成功撤銷處分那這起訴願呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2875.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2887.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
但我覺得這也是一個但我知道勞動部在4月15號的人權小組會議當中已經有討論到這個議題了部長也才是說要會去函地方政府請他們針對個案狀況來斟酌減輕處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2892.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2909.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
然後免罰並強調即使這些尋求庇護的人沒有工作許可的話只要行為具有勞動本質的話那個勞動權益就應該受到保障那勞動部最這個尋求庇護者工作權的關心我覺得值得肯定可是我還是要請教部長說這個才是目前在地方執行上 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2910.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2939.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
有沒有形成一致性的一個操作標準後來你看台北市也是經過溯源之後後來才是成功可是其他縣市真的是這樣嗎因為現在很多因為對我們移民署有所謂的就是可以去申請你的那個居留的臨時居留的這樣子可是問題是一直卡著都沒辦法申請通過所以我覺得如果地方這樣的裁量標準不一致不符合裁市的時候有沒有一個監督的管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2940.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2964.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
跟英文說的確地方政府在勞政事務上尤其檢查事務上會有一定的這個裁罰上會有一定的他的裁量的權限那我還是說這個部分一個最大的核心還是移民署他在做身份的認定可是我覺得我們也願意來跟地方政府來討論一下那是不是這些在裁量的樣態上面的看法上面那大家有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2965.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2970.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
有多做一些討論那這部分是可以可是我還是說地方政府確實有他在裁量上的權限 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2971.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2999.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我剛才也講說部長你一直以來也是很關心人權所以我覺得臺灣作為一個人權國家依照兩公約的原則除了不把我們的尋求庇護的外國人遣返回有危險的國家我覺得應該考慮到他們身份不穩定然後更容易受到勞動的剝削我覺得應該要提供一些保障所以勞動部作為就服法的主管機關是不是可以就現行的法規的適用做出比較明確的解釋跟適宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3000.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3010.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
讓地方有一致性的那個標準我們可以來跟地方政府討論好再麻煩部長謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝林業勤召委的發言也謝謝部長跟市長的答詢下一位請盧憲毅召委發言謝謝主席有請部長有請黃部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3032.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3053.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
今天有兩個問題要請教第一個是移工的問題第二個是農村民勞工的問題先就我們現在無證移工上下有一個近期報導說現在的規模大概9.5萬人農業部統計農業缺工大概是5%部分場地青農認為實際的缺工壓力可能遠高於官方的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3054.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3069.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
官方看見的是登記在制度內的缺工跟查獲案件可是現場面對的是我們的搶收、短工、拒絕信用工以及地下人力網絡的快速博為地下勞動市場成型的一個事實那我想說面對這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3072.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3089.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
這些狀況我看到115年的業務報告看到政府有擴大外國技術人力引進而優化聘僱管理強化直接聘僱多元陪伴照顧服務及強制防制強迫勞動公平照顧等措施我這是肯定這方面的作為可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3089.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3116.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
我們政策上都挺有在合法編國內制度內的一個調整是否能夠真正回應目前農村地下勞動市場已經成形並可能已經外移到山去 影響周邊的一個風險所以我想問部長的是現在政府對失聯移工的掌握是不是還是挺有在失聯人數以及查獲案件有沒有一個跨部會的一個整合機制呢可以進一步掌握失聯移工或許可能留留下哪些產業哪些地區以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3117.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3136.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
是否已经真的形成是地下人类的调度网络例如有看到很多人在山区看到我们的一共是不是流向农业流入制造业营造业造户市场也有可能是进入我们山区的茶园果园采收这些周边的产业所以我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3137.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3163.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我要講的不是要在失聯移工加上GPS也不是要求用電話定位是希望政府能不能在合法的狀況之下去識別化符合各自保護的前提之下把勞動部 移民署 農業部地方政府的資料串聯起來來分析地下勞動市場的產業流向區域熱區非法媒介網絡使用跟禁用移工的模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3164.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3187.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
可以跟你說我們其實非常重視私人移工的問題那現在社會也很關注其實對私人移工問題那第一個我想強化查處這當然是一定必要的事情那但是其實在這幾個月其實我們也很積極的來找各部會一起來討論因為其實私人移工的問題一定勢必是要從源頭管理來去做克服 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3188.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3208.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那的確我們現在看到各個不同的目的世界主管機關他們的移工失聯的狀況其實的確是有不一樣比方說農業就是比較高的農業失聯確實是比較高所以我們其實現在我們也一直在跟農業部來討論希望農業部來協助提供一個在源頭管理失聯移工的方法或管理移工的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3208.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3234.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
讓他減少失聯的誘因那甚至是要有效的管理的做法那其實我們已經張召開了這個跨部會的會議不只是針對農業甚至也包括營造那包括製造業對那包括環環境部然後其實我們都這個跨部會的合作我想這是在這個面對失聯移工是非常非常需要的那這都會比過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3236.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3254.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
可能比較偏重在後端的查處那希望能夠有一些進一步更新的作為對我跟部長提一個就是一個案就是類似像模範日本的模範就是我們看到我們的現在的處理商都是後端剛剛說了可是日本就2024年推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3256.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3270.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
育成就劳制度也就是把我们的那个他们有人才培育啊转集资源经理资源机关许可外部监察人都用透明化跟送出国等合作的方式来强化他们外国劳动者的制度内流动跟监督 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3271.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3289.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
所以看我們台灣是沒有一個獨立的外部機場機制或者是專責的機構來精準追蹤一共的實際工作軌跡還是無奈然後只能無奈的看任由地下公投在農村營造工地四處包地調度人力這樣所以而且日本也有合法轉職的空間就是說如果他在 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3290.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3315.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
日本在工作一两年内然后语文能力达到一定的水准它可以在同一个类别合法转职可是我们台湾可能在这个跨业转职的限制非常严格甚至如果一共无法适应或剥削的话只能选择逃逸或多入地下市场所以我觉得这个是我们两个国家很大的差别而且我们的那个罚金他们是如果是出犯物质是 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3317.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3344.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
有些比較沒有那麼嚴重的話大概只是不採訪然後入境管制一年如果是累犯才會寄出高罰金或者是5到10年那個嚴格入國的管制可是我們台灣我覺得我們像不是只要在末端抓人還要合法來怎麼講合法處理這些我們的聘僱過慢過貴不彈性以及非法媒介跟地下公辦這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3346.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3368.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
有利可圖的這些結構性的問題跟委員說明因為委員講到日本的新的做法其實日本新的做法這個遇成就老它其實有一點跟我們就是它有點相似於我們其實現在在推動的技術人力的就外籍技術人力的做法其實我們在推動外籍技術人力的做法的時候其實也有來看日本這新的政策的推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3370.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3392.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那所以我想我們其實在近期也包括對技術人力包括我們把他的這個名額上限給放寬過去是25%現在放寬到其實可以百分之百那甚至我們也可以直接從國外來引進技術人力如果他特定的產業有需求的話我們就來做所以我們的確也看到就是說的確當 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3394.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3410.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
這個我們整體的制度越強調人力的品質尤其是往更技術面的勞工來邁進的時候這部分的確他的失聯率也會降低所以這其實是我們也希望在技術人力的制度上面能夠把它做得更完備的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3411.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3440.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
最後就是講到部落的主人就是我們部落的勞工常常是升級很多的身份有的時候他是勞工有的時候他是小農有時候他是地主有的時候他是小包商所以可是他是同他作為一個人他可以面對不同的一個階段的一個所謂的或者歧視或者是困難我想就幾個問題來比如說他作為勞工的時候他面對是不公平的一個低成本的競爭所以他就會變成什麼呢就變成被 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3440.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3465.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
被那些非法的那個就是我們所謂的移工他變成領班他就變成是被管理者所以我覺得說他那樣的一個感覺就是非常的沒有受到保障他會覺得說他是一套不透明責任不清缺乏法定保障的地下管理結構如果是作為小農的時候他會被迫在守法的時候找不到人然後找得到人的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3466.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3492.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
就要承擔違法的風險也就是說他在要承擔未經許可人力的裁罰風險所以他作為小農是這樣那作為地主的話他們可能因為人力調度困難責任追究跟不公平的競爭的風險所以他的目前發生在原鄉的地區就是說他會有一種地下經營的模式然後會覺得說他們的競爭力也不夠那作為小包商的時候他要 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3493.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3518.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
他要做的是一些合法聘僱程序保險 治安 文書跟管理成本的一些所謂的保證成本所以他沒有辦法去跟一般的大企業來競爭所以我覺得作為原住民的一個小包商的話他就要負擔非常大的一個所謂的制度上的不公平所以我想說真正的問題是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3521.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3539.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
這些措施希望不是只有我們看到的是我們現在針對原住民是穩定受雇一把家寶連續留任這些所謂的獎勵可是我們針對原住民好像都是做農業營造觀光商區季節性的產業所以他們都是短期臨時移動式的所以我想說 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3540.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3561.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
我們的政策也像是接觸的是正式受雇者可是那些短期工、臨時工、移動式的工作者、小農小包商我們的政策也像沒有接觸他們所以希望勞動部這邊能夠去思考這方面的問題所以我希望勞動部能不能將這些比如說短期派工、媒合、雇主、法尊成本的協助地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3562.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3584.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
地方就地管理的一個專辦事辦計畫能不能就我們的就業安定基金來來去籌劃這樣的一個計劃性的一個補助先把地下市場拉回制度內的前端治理而不是只靠末端的查緝跟第一個委員說明其實委員剛才其實在講到這些問題我們其實也有一些觀察 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3585.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3603.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那這部分因為他的確涉及到用人單位的管理層面那尤其是目的世界主管機關他的管理層面那你剛才講比較多是農業的部分所以這也是為什麼我們很現在是很密集的在跟農業部討論我們很希望那 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3605.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3618.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
這個透過前端的管理那包括可能不同的行業別或有不同的管理的做法跟作為那就勞動部這邊來說的話我想我們很願意來降低合法聘僱的程序成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3620.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3644.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
行政上面的成本我們很願意來設法降低所以這也是我們目前正在檢討我們整個聘僱政策的簡化聘僱機制的簡化的原因就是希望讓可能是小的企業小的僱主小的事業單位他更有條件能夠來去做這樣子聘僱的作為降低他的行政上面的負擔這部分我們很願意來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3645.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3662.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
好 就原住民的那個身份就是希望還是都不能夠跟農業部 民屬 人民會跟衛福部共同研議合法談刑 用官與就地管理把真正的用官需求拉回制度內 讓所有人都放回法律可以保護的位置 可以嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝我們盧縣議召委的發言 接下來我們請陳金輝委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3680.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3684.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員還有謝謝各位官員的出席我們請勞動部部長 紅部長來 要請我們的紅部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3690.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3706.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
部長從總質詢還有剛剛其他委員關心我覺得我大家應該都一起認同我們希望可以讓更多人願意請孕假畢竟少此話我們希望更多家長覺得他們不需要在工作還有家庭之間掙扎剛有聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3708.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3728.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
你們是礙於這個裁員所以你們沒有辦法現在調動這個投保級距不過大概在一個月內本席有聽到您跟行政院院長有講到說其實你們認為啊津貼可以跟勞保脫鉤去做一個放寬所以我想知道說剛剛講那麼多裁員的問題請問裁員問題你統計出來大概是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3733.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3749.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
我跟文說明其實我說的財源問題主要是在勞保基金的財源問題因為我們這邊是兩個一個是勞保一個是救保我現在要講的是育嬰留職津貼因為育嬰留職津貼基本上他的財源是來自於救保 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3750.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3768.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那我們認為舊寶的確相比勞保基金他比較沒有所謂的財務問題所以這也是我們認為針對讓舊寶的這個薪資上限跟勞保薪資上限其實他可以讓他脫鉤的可行性比較高比較高對是因為這個原因因為災寶 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3770.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3793.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
其實已經跟老保的投保資金上限脫鉤了所以我們認為如果災保可以脫鉤那今天在救保上面假如他的財務這個基金的財務狀況是還OK的話那是不是也可以進一步來研議所以這部分我們是正向的來評估中因為家長會想要知道嘛對那你覺得你大概要研議多久我想不會太久 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3794.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3800.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
都可以講一下三個月寧寧說司長好像很想發言三個月太久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3802.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3828.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
所以三個月內你會告訴我們你有可能會調高這個投保級距第一個是如果要把他的薪資脫鉤的話其實這涉及要到修這個救保的母法所以我們目前的確目前是有在做相關的研議跟評估是不是要在救保裡面來把這兩個所以你現在的方向是要調高級距還是你要修母法 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3828.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3846.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
要修母法才能夠調高級距因為他目前舊保法裡面的天花板他是跟著老保的所以如果今天要把級距調高的話他勢必要去修舊保的母法所以你大概三個月內會提出來您的版本三個月太久了一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3849.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3867.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
我希望可以盡快市長很想講市長你說你說沒有沒有好好那我們就希望一個月內可以看到您的版本還有您的報告我們應該說我們的方案我們希望能夠盡快啦對好那我們就希望一個月內可以看到兩位的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3869.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3893.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那這邊因為上禮拜我們有看到一些勞團他們有開記者會也有走上街頭那因為這些勞團他們有講到說他們提出了一些訴求但是好像沒有得到勞動部部長正面的回應他們是說問A答B啦但在過去您的這個人生歷練裡面很多場合你也都有參加所以我知道您知道他們在問什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3895.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3911.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我是在這邊問一下他們還有一些疑慮沒有被解開的希望可以得到初步勞動部長的態度那第一個我想問說這個提高勞退薪資提撥率那這個的話大家當然是很擔心我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3912.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3933.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
關於物價或是薪資等等的大家也會想說退休後是沒有辦法維持基本的生活品質的因為現在算一算大概就是兩萬到三萬之間那這個方面您有沒有想說是不是逐步去做調升或者是由政府來協助雇主來做一些補貼等等的您的態度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3934.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3948.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
好跟委員說明第一個因為這次五一那勞團的幾個訴求其實當然我們都很清楚你們有發新聞稿我們有看那我想針對勞退的部分這次大家談的比較多我認為我們其實是願意來跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3952.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3980.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
這個各個利害相關方包括勞工團體包括雇主團體來去做更進一步的意見收集跟溝通我想勞團其實現在也表達他們其實也很希望能夠有一些多一點對話的機會所以我們也希望說那是不是可以來促成利害相關方之間的一些對話在像這樣的議題上面因為第一點他們的意思是說您之前的回覆都是正在研議神聖的評估所以你既然是想要把利害相關方都 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3981.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3997.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
召集過來的話你有沒有預計在多久以內你想要做這樣子的會議我先跟委員說明因為剛剛其實在講到幾個事情包括你看你的這個簡報裡面講到說救治勞退的部分其實我想救治勞退的部分我們也在研議把他的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3999.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4010.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
所以你的意思是說你1跟2想要同步進行應該是說我們認為可行性比較高12應該是可行性比較高的部分我們就盡快趕快來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4013.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4039.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
對勞工有利的改革哪一部分是可行性比方說我們認為就是純救治的勞工那我們怎麼樣透過更進一步的做法能夠讓他的退休金能夠增加包括現在在一些工會或者是有一些立委他們也來跟我們建議比方說讓這些純救治的勞工讓他們在老退新制能夠開一個帳戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4040.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4056.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
然後讓他們可以提前結清他們就職累積的退休金放在這個帳戶裡面那透過政府投資的效益來更大幅的累積他們退休金所以你的意思是說你大概會從二開始著手現在很多人可能65歲以上70歲以上還是會繼續投入職場因為現在很缺工 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4061.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4089.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
這個都是大家可能會一起面臨的問題我們覺得可以我們覺得在可行性上面做法上面是比較可以我們就快速我們我希望說快速的就來推進一些前進就一步一步往前所以我說我們希望能夠在整體讓大家的退休金都能夠增加的這個前提之下來去思考這個制度逐步改革的的可能性好多久以內我想剛剛在講包括救治 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4091.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4109.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
救治的部分其實之前有好幾位委員其實也很關心我覺得我們希望假設可行的話我們希望能夠盡快來推動多久不會太久你可以講一下我們來講三個月還是半年內三個月太久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4110.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4126.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
好 那今天很好 今天都是好消息耶今天都是三個月內 一兩個月內好 那第五點 這個落實工會的籌組權因為現在還是有很多人反映他們在中小企業工作所以他並沒有集體協商的能力關於這一點您的態度為何 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4129.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4146.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
這一次我們在跟美方簽的這個ART裡面其中有一個部分也講到關於團結權的部分那這個部分確實在跟美方的談判目前的承諾是有一個五年的的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4150.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4173.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
調試期所以我想在這段時間裡面我們會來跟各方也包括會有一些相關的因為工會的籌組權會涉及到一些相關的勞動權益他的勞動權益的設計其實說我們會來先做一些這個方案的演繹包括是一些委託計劃的方案來去做相關的演繹所以這是五年的一個調試期 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4174.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4190.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
好那最後第七個因為卓榮泰他自己也有講說2027的最低薪資要調到三萬我想問這個進度如何提升基本工資因為基本工資的審議其實有他的在他的程序那現在應該是進行到研究小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4192.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4215.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
現在是應該是進行到研究小組的報告那基本上最低工資的審議會是在第三季那諮詢的話會是在第二季所以他基本上就是在這個每年因為目前最低工資其實他在立法法制化以後其實他就有一個他的程序所以2027的進度是可以趕上的當然每年都會在9月來做審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4216.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4240.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
好下一個這個是從您那邊獲得的資料我們看一下近五年啊勞動條件檢查的場次可能持平或者是甚至變少結果違反的件數跟比例卻是提高的這個你要怎麼解讀這個數據呢我們是雇主手法的觀念變差還是代表勞動部過去對高風險的雇主掌握的不足呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4242.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4255.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
第一個是跟跟文說明因為他的檢查的場次基本上大致是應該是持平目前其實看起來是對可是你看你的處分率是越來越高 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4257.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4270.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
對 所以我想我們其實對於一些職場的勞動條件樣態我們其實都是希望這個檢查的部分要落實法準其實我們的原則就是落實法準那我們現在問一下您認為這個違法114年主要裁罰前三名的樣態是什麼這個我們可能要調一下資料各位報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4282.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4290.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
剛剛講那個處分率比較高我先回應一下大概是我們每一年鎖定的都是比較高違規的那如果說它過去已經符合法令規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4291.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4312.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我們基本上就排掉所以這個違反情形基本上每一年都在20上下那剛剛委員提到第二個問題是有關於這個基本上都是延長工時還有這個加班未預規定給付好我們來看一下那你講你現在講前10家前10家有什麼因為這個是別人幫你們統計的這跟你們掌握的一樣嗎因為你剛說你會針對高危險的去做做調查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4320.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4342.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
就是比較高頻率發生的那特別去做調查那這裡面確實看到客運業的加班的問題是比較多的然後航空公司也有左邊是你們提供的圖表所以裁罰的樣態主要落在勞基法、職安法還有勞退條例這三樣這前三名 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4343.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4366.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那剛剛講的也對沒給加班費或是工資不好記錄工時等等的可是呢現在我們從勞動部的網站其實我們是沒有辦法找出如果我現在問你違反兩次以上三次以上甚至五次以上誰是累犯的僱主這個我們是找不出來的喔右邊這個表是勞團他們一筆一筆進去輸入統計出來的你覺得你們可以提供這樣子的資料嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4371.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4399.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
就是反覆違規的跟委員說明第一個是我想我們是願意來檢討我們在我們在網站上面違規系統資訊公開的這個更高的揭露性我想我們是願意的那第二個是其實要做剛剛像這樣子的統計因為我知道有些勞工團體他們會自己比方說也許用開放資料用開放資料的方式來去做這樣的相關的排序對 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4401.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4417.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我跟你說這個就是你們的查詢系統是真的蠻不好用的因為你必須要先輸入縣市再選法規再輸入事業單位所以剛那個表格是他們一筆一筆的查出來做出來的統計所以我希望你是可以回去把這個系統升級 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4418.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4445.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
比如说它至少可以显示同一个事业单位近三年的违规次数然后反复违规的名单次数罚还违反人数重大职灾等等建立一个高风险的雇主排序否则资讯是非常的不对等跟委员说明第一个你刚才讲到说一个事业单位它近三年的违规的部分这应该是可以在我们系统上面查得出来的这个查出来对就下载Excel就是可以的 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4446.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4464.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
但是我的意思是說我現在想舉外國的給您看我們必須要主動去查那比如說像韓國他不需要主動他就是直接把它公開那大家知道其實韓國的勞工跟台灣他們面臨相同的壓力就是低薪高壓高工時等等的他們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4466.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4487.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
對這些這個高額或者是慣性欠薪的雇主他直接公開非常詳細的資料並且在網站上放至少三年那並且呢我們可能是做裁罰嘛可是現在的罰款你知道針對數十億資本額的企業他有時候就把他直接納入他的經營成本裡面所以你這個裁罰對他來說並不構成什麼威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4491.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4520.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
而他們南韓他們可能是比如說在他的融資或者是在他跟政府的標案等等求財都會讓他產生困難根文說明其實我來勞動部以後第一個我就發現其實過去我們這個財發系統是有些地方政府會在一段時間以後就把它給下架所以我其實去年已經要求你想做不是想做我們已經做了所以我們已經要求地方政府不能下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4521.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4541.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那就是希望透過不能下架的方式讓大家持續可以查得到這些違規的紀錄那我們去年的確花了一些心力跟地方政府來去做這些討論那以上希望可以在三個月內跟您要一個評估報告是不是可以把高額欠薪的雇主三年內反覆違反的重大職災職安違反的 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4542.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4571.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
還有次數高罰款高影響勞工人數多的建立就你這個查詢系統要有個名單化分級化甚至去評估是不是連動到政府的補助採購還有求財資訊我們來研議一下揭露的方式但是我的確都覺得更多的資訊揭露其實是有助於我們在法規上面的要求也對於違法僱主的壓力其實也會提高這也是為什麼我們去年要求地方政府不可以再把它下架的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4572.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4595.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
好 謝謝 那我再跟你索取這個報告 謝謝好 謝謝沈靜薇委員發言 接下來請邱惠璐委員發言主席 各位與會的委員 還有政府部門同仁大家好那有請那個洪部長 有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4599.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4623.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
好 部長您好我今天是想要跟你交流就是勞動節勞工看起來不太開心因為訴求非常多那就代表說勞動部替他們爭取權益的這方面還有加強的空間事實上這些勞工常常有那種錢少勢多離家遠的感覺所以我們如何提升他們在職場的一個勞動權益就顯得非常的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4624.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4629.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那我想請問一下部長就是說你知道我們現在平均薪資大約是多少嗎現在整體的平均薪資應該是四萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4638.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4664.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
4萬4萬多4萬4萬7千4萬7千接近4萬8那部長你知道有多少%的這個勞工呢他的薪水是低於這個平均薪資的嗎目前算起來應該是7成多對大概69靠近7成好那所以這個我們的政府一直在宣揚說我們這個經濟多好又多好那宣揚的依據就是股市4萬點 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4666.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4689.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那股市四萬點你覺得是一個經濟指標嗎股市當然是一個國家它總體的經濟指標之一但是並不是全部那事實上每個經濟指標都只能反映這個一個國家的經濟體制的其中一個部分那我知道你的意思就是不是唯一啦它是一個參考因素好那 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4691.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4718.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
所謂的參考因素呢我覺得應該也要從勞工他們到底平均薪資是多少來判斷嘛如果勞工所得越高那當然也可以反映出我們的經濟相對是一個榮景那現在就是我們平均薪資大概只有十萬八但是接近七成的人其實都是低於這個平均薪資所以我們的政府有時候在喊說我們台灣經濟多好那確實半導體那邊創造經濟的榮景可是大部分的勞工其實都沒有享受到這個經濟的果實 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4719.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4747.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
那請問一下部長你知道我們台灣的那個平均工時是多少嗎這我也應該說但是其實我們有去年有提供進一步的資料那我們的平均工時大概不是全球第五名不是你說是還是不是不是那你這2024的資料啊那這裡不是有一張因為在這個排名當時的這個排名裡面其實有很多國家所以並不是全國但是OECD國家的確我們是是在一個比較高的狀況可是並不是全國 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4748.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4771.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
你說不是全球,那這張表格是錯的嗎?你的意思是這樣嗎?而且這個是來自勞動部的國際勞動統計對,這裡面比較是OECD的排名比較是OECD的排名?對那全球你說不是第五名,那你有掌握第幾名嗎?40幾吧,後來我們看到的數字我們的平均公司是,有精確的數字嗎?好像有要補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4774.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4782.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我們的排名應該是53啦53對全球53所以你說這個是OECD的好那這個53部長覺得還有加強的空間嗎還是安於說53沒有關係比5還好我們不是這樣想的當然我們認為在公使問題當然有經濟的空間好那 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4796.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4810.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那部長知道說2023年2024年相較於2023年其實我們的工時是有提升的所以我的意思就是說他的工時勞動部應該因為高工時高壓其實會讓這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4812.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4837.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
勞工就是我們剛剛講的錢少勢多的那個感覺就出來了那可能有灰心可能有無力感那這裡的數字就顯示出來說2024的工時還比2023多10個小時多10個小時也許部長不會覺得怎樣但是對於一個身心俱疲的勞工可能就是一根壓垮駱駝的一根稻草所以部長您覺得這個工時的部分你會怎麼樣來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4837.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4844.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
跟委員說的確我們在看工時的時候的確看到這幾年尤其是有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4847.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4864.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
這個發展比較好的產業因為他的訂單可能比較多所以會增加一些加班工時所以你標示為理所當然嗎不是不是不是那也有一些比方說我們自己會比較關心或者說比如一些像運輸業運輸業的加班工時運輸業整體來說並沒有特別 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4868.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4884.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
好 我不管是什麼產業 FGC D E FG 什麼產業我要說的是說其實工時會增加有很多不同的原因不同的產業 但是老公就是覺得過勞這是不爭的事實 但我說不同的產業會有不同的原因所以會需要針對說我們是哪一個產業因為它的原因來去處理它的問題可是你剛剛就是要用產業好像要來回答我我覺得這是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4893.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4922.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
勞工我們台灣呢其實我們台灣就是給人家感覺是一個過勞之道的感覺那工時又高那工時高也就算了好像加班費有時候還拿不到工作做不完我們這裡有一個加班最主要的理由是工作量大工作做不完啊其實事實上能夠拿到加班費的人只有20%所以就是會有勞工的根深蒂固的概念就是我們工作做不完然後我們加班費拿不到然後呢就是錢少事多又離家遠所以當然就 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4922.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4948.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
有出現勞動節不快樂的這樣的一個情形那事實上能夠拿到加班費只有20%所以80%的人沒有拿到加班費所以114年了這個有統計出來裁罰其實有2093件那就代表說違法不給加班費這個現象蠻普及的那部長我現在想請問你不管高工時也好或者是加班費的給付沒有拿到你覺得這有什麼改善的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4949.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4970.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
除了開罰開罰再開罰還有沒有其他改善的措施第一個跟委員還是說明就像剛剛我們林署長說的其實我們現在是針對特別尤其比較是高風險高工時或者是高違規機率的我們其實正在加強查處所以這也是為什麼剛剛前一位委員有講到其實我們這幾年查出來的這個違規率其實也有在提高的原因所以查處部分我們會做 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4970.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4983.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
所以你們只能夠做開法嗎?還是還有其他的措施?其實我們對於其他的工時的部分其實我們也希望能夠更進一步目前也在研擬一些做法來希望進一步的能夠降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4985.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5004.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
對那你的做法好像講不出來是先報告我們現在其實已經跟地方政府溝通今年開始針對違反法令特別是公司公司的部分只要有違法的一定要請他們過來做教育訓練就是違法部分去做矯正的這個這樣的一個效果可以事後給我們這些教育訓練的資料嗎可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5007.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5023.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那關於這個超時工作又沒拿到加班費的情形在護理界更是普及那我們這邊有看到血汗護理超時工作就是血汗護理的一種現象那除此之外未給加班費在護理界也非常的普遍的存在那 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5024.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5047.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
關於護理這一塊 部長有沒有再其他的想法因為我剛剛問的是一般的勞工嘛那關於護理這部分 部長有沒有一些比較特殊的想法因為護理人員如果過勞 其實不是影響他自己的勞動權益可能影響到病人的安全啦根本說明第一個針對護理的加班的問題或違反勞基法的問題其實我們應該去年其實就把它列入在我們這個基準的 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5048.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5067.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
裁量基準裡面那你如果是我知道因為聽起來好像衛福部只能夠裁罰裁罰再裁罰有沒有除了裁罰以外的其他動作因為裁罰當然很重要我覺得裁罰很重要但是有沒有其他的相關配套措施像剛您提到說如果對於違法的其實你們會有一些輔導或教育訓練教育宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5069.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5084.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
我們其實現在有在跟衛福部討論因為我們看到的確會有一些在醫院裡面的主管是他其實對於勞基法對於整體工職制度不一定那麼瞭解是所以我們也希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5086.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5112.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
是不是可以尤其是針對護理的部分那有沒有可能是對於有比較有排班權力的像這樣的主管我知道你的措施就是做教育宣導好啦沒關係我們來到第三個問題隱形公室這個在3月12總諮詢我有跟部長來請教就是說護理界充滿一大堆隱形公室例如說8點要上班但是可能前半小時甚至前一小時就要來到醫院做事前的點班工作或交班 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5113.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5127.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那這個情況之下呢 在醫院的認知裡頭 這些都不算做工時因為醫院認為8點才開始上班 那這個就是隱形工時可是護理人員其實已經來到現場在做那個公務了好 那我現在想請問部長 我當時有跟您這個請問說可不可以用行政還是來規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5136.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5161.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
隱形工時這件事,那把隱形工時列為是一個工作時間,那兩個月已經過去了他如果到現場的話,其實應該是可以算工時對,有沒有函式,因為我們的法律認知就是認為是,就是沒有看到相關的法律秩序白紙黑字所以可不可以給我們一個函式,說隱形工時,你們可以列一些太陽說隱形工時他應該是為工作時間,一紙行政函式 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5161.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5182.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
這是兩個月以前就做的訴求我們跟惠福來討論一下這個事情那我現在要講的就是說隱形公使如果真的被認列為公使那當然這是替護理界爭取到一個福利因為認為公使就可以算薪資但是其實你把他認列為公使另外一個現象就是公使又增加了公使又增加了那公使的增加當然就對一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5184.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5211.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
護理人員的這個疲憊的狀況有可能讓他在雪上加霜雪上加霜那我們看一下休息時間也看得到吃不到我們看護理人員這邊這個沉痛的這個發生8個小時沒有進食上班前先吃中間頂多喝水怕上廁所所以不敢吃有些人索性不訂飯他上班也吃不因為上班也吃不到飯那請問一下這個休息時間都拿去工作部長覺得合法還是違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5214.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5240.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
跟我們報告勞基法規定4個小時的工作一定要有30分鐘的休息30分鐘休息對好那如果今天這個勞工忙到已經病人有10床然後忙到山頭落壁都沒有辦法負荷只得撐著自己的老命去把這些病人醫的照顧撐老命犧牲中午休息時間他自己自願放棄因為事情做不完啊那請問這有沒有違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5241.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5267.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
法令的強制規定沒有說權力放棄基本上但是很多雇主並沒有這個認知所以我的PPT也打在這邊嘛35條就是一個強制規定所以呢這個大家不知道啊很多護理人員就覺得說我做不完我自願放棄他根本不知道這是一個強制規定連雇主也不知道都不知道大家以為說這個強制規定其實是這個休息的時間其實是可以放棄的所以你們這邊可不可以再做一些宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5268.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5283.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
可以嗎跟委員說明這就是我剛才說其實我們看到有一些僱主或者是有一些排班權力在醫院裡面排班權力他其實對於法尊的了解掌握度不夠所以說為什麼希望那所以你們既然都知道原因出在說 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5284.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5303.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
不管是勞工或者是雇主他們的這個法律概念都不夠所以你們這邊有沒有一個比較系統性或者是比較好的idea可以去增強他們的法尊意識說不定這個做下去之後這部分就是我們覺得要跟衛福部討論的地方好那請等一下我時間表可以給我嗎思考一下等一下給我時間表一個月一個月可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5303.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5330.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我們給我們一個月跟衛福部來討論怎麼樣來加強部長有效率很好加強那除此之外我也想請教你我先把問題丟出來因為我覺得你應該是想請教衛福部確保休息的措施因為剛我們的這個應該是師長嗎已經講過了休息時間他是一個強制規定勞工自己要放棄也不行那所以你有沒有確保休息的措施我知道你可能要跟衛福部再商量那我先問 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5331.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5349.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
部長請問一下這種延長工時到底有沒有什麼方法可以去緩解措施可以去緩解你覺得合理的護病比是一個方式嗎如果一個護理人員他合理的工作量就是照顧6個病人可是你卻讓他照顧9個病人難道他不會延長工時嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5350.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5373.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
你覺得合理的護病筆是不是一個措施跟委員說明第一個當然現在我知道救衛服務這邊正在討論跟研議這個護病筆入法的議題那這當然比較是在前端的管理上面除了我們勞動的法規的管制以外有一些更前端的管理作為的規範是不是能夠進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5373.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5389.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
我知道你說衛福部在你訂的碼所以你應該也是認同嗎就是合理的戶併比應該可以某程度的付款錢他們目前其實應該是在研究這事情那當然我們從我們是勞基法勞動法規的部分但我覺得我們會加強來去做執法的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5390.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5418.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那我現在想請教部長最後一個問題就是說因為這裡有一個叫做裁處的共通性原則嘛那如果是區域醫院或醫學中心如果有違反24或32條等等的他就會加重處罰二分之一那這裡為什麼沒有出現地區醫院這是我的第一個問題那第二個問題呢就是說你們去年8月1號實施實施之前呢只有6件被裁罰實施之後有21件被裁罰那這個現象還蠻吊詭的你們有研究原因嗎例如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5420.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5444.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
你們有研究原因嗎因為這個法看起來就是要讓他加強處罰嘛然後產生恫嚇力可是數字卻比較高跟委員說明第一個數字高有可能有幾個不同的原因啊因為當時因為這個包括這個共通性原則的討論所以可能也讓一些工會那更了解這個這樣這樣的一個措施的作為所以他們也可能對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5446.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5467.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
所以這個原因你認為有蠻多的嗎那可不可以分析給我們知道因為我覺得勞動部也應該進一步真的有系統去分析因為你剛講的可能是個人臆測那有沒有一些比較實證的資料統計的資料那我那個地區醫院沒有那請問一下那個部長地區醫院沒有是什麼原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5468.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5484.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
其實當初其實當然就是先把比較大型的事業單位先放入原則是這個我跟你請教就是一個月內要請你提供的資料第四點可不可以去研究一下地區醫院違法的太陽建樹有多少那它違法的太陽不能夠說因為它規模比較小就不採法如果是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5487.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5514.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那不是就會遁入違法的一個空間嗎那所以地區院這邊可不可以放進去那當然放進去之前要做一個實證的資料去分析到底原因是什麼這是我的第四個訴求那當然第一個訴求就是說隱形公室給韓式你們剛剛說衛福部會跟衛福部討論那休息時間要如何確保護理人員可以休息到也會跟衛福部討論那你給我的時程是一個月嗎那我再跟你問第三個問題就是說其實這個再犯率 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5517.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5543.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
8月1號那個共同性的原則出爐之後可不可以比較給我資料就是說在8月1號之前犯罪違反行政法的人到了8月1號之後因為你們說那個產生恫嚇力嘛那有沒有再犯有沒有再犯可不可以給這個資料我們做一點相關資料的彙整再提供給委員辦公室好不好對這樣子好好OKOK好謝謝謝謝謝謝主席謝謝部長好謝謝朱薇如委員發言接下來請王育民委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5552.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5580.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
來謝謝主席我們有請洪部長有請洪部長那個友善工作職場是不是勞動部很重要的工作任務是那這個性工法第19條他的他的那個法義很重要的是彈性工時加上縮減工時是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5581.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5587.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
主要他應該是說減一個小時的工時調整工時也有彈性工時那現在台北市推出來的這個育兒減少工時2.0半事實上我會覺得這個就是性供法第19條我們應該要再修法它的升級版因為原來的性供法裡面的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5604.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5630.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
他其實可以減少上班時數但是是不給薪喔而且他的規模只在30個人以上的企業那他的年齡層呢是3歲以下那我們去對照現在台北市市辦的這一個育兒減少工12.0呢他在年齡上面他是放寬到12歲然後減食不減薪我想這個是對於勞工朋友最實質的一個補貼跟幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5632.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5637.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
而且沒有企業規模的限制現在他從原來的10萬已經調高到最高補助20萬那今天這個部長接受媒體訪問的時候有提到說彈性工時跟縮減工時一直是勞動部會持續去推動的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5652.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5679.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那既然是勞動部要去推動的目標我個人覺得台北市現在推出來這個版本事實上是非常友善勞工的而且是可行的現在開始有些企業也開始去申請了所以這個部分我要問部長的就是既然原來在新公法19條的相關規定你們施行下來全國依照新公法提出減少工時申請只有不到3% 2.9% |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5681.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5710.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那表示這個成效是沒有達到預期效果的既然是這樣子是不是性供法19條應該要修法而且你應該要展開事辦計畫跟進台北市他的這個育兒減少工時這樣的一個方案我們不應該只有台北市因為他有財力他去推中央你有錢啊中央應該補助其他財力比較差的地方縣市我們可以一起來推動啊你個人對於這個方案的看法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5711.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5737.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
跟我們說明其實我想地方政府做這樣的嘗試我們是正面看待但是只有台北市做得到但的確因為這裡面也會需要去考量其實可能不同地方它的這個企業的樣態其實又不太一樣比方說輪班排班的企業它在這方面它就會遇到比較多的挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5739.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5766.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那所以我今天從中央的角度來說的話我就是需要去多做考慮不同地域不同產業上面的考慮但是我還是要說不管是彈性工時或縮減工時的部分我想這部分我們還是很希望能夠再往前推動那這部分政策可行性的關鍵其實這段時間很多專家出來說其實關鍵是在於配套的完備所以如果今天中央要提出鄉鎮分行我們認為應該要把配套做得更完備 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5767.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5780.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
你現在缺是哪一個配套?最缺的是什麼?是錢嗎?還是什麼配套?不只是錢因為這涉及到當一個勞工如果他減少工資的話那他的這個工時是誰來補? |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5781.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5807.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那民團已經開始給你具體的建議我們來看一下這個昨天我們看到民團開的記者會訴求非常的清楚第一個就是他很贊成要把這個年齡放寬他們認為可以放寬到6歲如果一下子沒有辦法像台北市這麼好到12歲至少你現在把3歲放寬到6歲就是6歲以下他的確有接送孩子的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5808.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5823.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
另外一個你剛剛提到的代班津貼就是說如果請了一小時之後那他的工作可能需要其他的工作人員來幫他代這個已經幫你思考到有所謂的代班津貼所以政府你可以來補充的就是這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5824.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5843.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
另外一個取消30個人的企業規模因為台灣是中小型企業30人以下的非常多不要讓你現在的性工法利益很好但是呢事實上只有全國不到3%的勞工可以適用那我覺得民團的這一些建議都非常的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5844.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5861.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
而且也是非常的具體我認為現在政府如果你真的想要縮減育兒家庭的工時給予彈性工時那這些都是可以去做到的有沒有哪一點是你做不到的部長先為你說明第一個因為這段時間我們也一直跟民間團體保持聯繫對 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5863.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5883.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
所以我們也一直在做,也不只是左眼攻勢,包括相關制度的討論,都一直在做討論所以現在昨天民團開的這個記者會,那這幾個建議,我想我們都可以來綜合的考量我覺得都做得到啊,其實我如果當部長的話,我馬上就會說這個我們都會列為我們未來的方案,而且一定可以落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5889.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5908.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
各位說明其實確實一個關鍵在其他國家裡面看到一個關鍵就是針對職貸的部分這是為什麼說如果我們要提出方案的話政府你有錢可以來補嗎我們要有一個更完備的配套的方案部長這件事情很簡單中央政府只要扛起責任願意去補這個經費其實問題就解決了那我們就來看你有什麼樣的錢可以來補這個錢呢這個我們來看一下你的就業安定基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5918.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5941.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
你的就業安定基金事實上你累積的淨資產一年比一年多因為我們聘的移工也是一年比一年高那另外一個就是你的就業安定基金原來你的這個本來是說為了這個失業各方面的這些理由事實上都已經救保這邊都來指引了所以坦白講你現在的就業安定基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5942.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5960.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
是一筆你可以好好去善用如何友善職場然後讓父母親可以安心的在職場然後去補助他們育兒的這個項目那我也幫你算過如果以台北市台北市現在是拉高標因為它2.0已經補助到20萬了用它的最高標來看的話如果你是一萬家的企業事實上也只需要20億 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5967.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5985.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那你也可以不用到那麼高標你如果是十萬的話事實上才十億一萬家補助一萬家企業對你來講這筆錢相較於就業安定基金來講這個真的是一個小數目但是我們此時此刻一個就是說友善職場我們怎麼樣支持這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5988.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6015.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
父母親我覺得已經變成現在政府最需要去考慮的事情所以你剛剛也提到嘛你這個救保基金我們待會會來談救保基金他的這個天花板可能還可以稍微再打開讓育兒今天可以領得更多那這個部分我認為既然你覺得這個縮短工時減少工時是可行的我個人認為啦這個是直接在你的性工法19條的升級版你真的做得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6017.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6034.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
錢這邊可以出這邊真的就業安逸基金他的用途裡面其中有一個你就是也是在改善你這個職場啊這友善職場說明第一個相關的做法我們其實正在評估中那包括財務的部分真的不是問財務需要考慮但我們會盡力爭取 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6036.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6054.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
對啊我幫你算過了就是不是大問題嘛而且就在你經濟就掌握在你手上但是這裡面假設要推動相關做法會有好幾個環節會需要財務的支持那我們有綜合思考那所以我要跟委員說的是說財務需要考慮但我們會盡力爭取 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6055.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6085.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
好我覺得部長你可以有更有魄力一點該做的事情對的事情而且你有能力在你主導底下就可以完成的事情我希望你盡快給勞工朋友一個清楚明確的訊號也不需要因為說這個育兒方案蔣萬先推出來我們這樣好像跟進也沒有跟進的問題你今天作為一個勞動部部長你是中央部會的首長你要照顧的是所有的勞工所以我們不可能一個政策只是因為首都他有錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6086.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6109.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那這邊的勞工就可以他減少工時他可以要補助其他縣市的勞工我們都要照顧啊根本說明絕對沒有說因為哪一個地方政府先做的事辦所以這樣很好那今天中央政府在這邊因為第一個會考量的點一定會比地方政府多很好啊甚至如果要推出方案的話勢必我認為配套也要更完備 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6110.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6131.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
可以但是我希望這一塊本席的主張就是一定要推勞工很有感民團也很支持而且這也符合我們性工法第19條的精神我們第19條本席會提出修法要把這個不給薪的這一點就是直接拿掉給這樣的一個彈性我們應該就是要給薪另外一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6131.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6158.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
既然這一邊可以改善就是讓這個父母親減少工時然後我們政府去補貼他另外一個就是說他拿到的是這個孕流子津貼的部分這個錢應該也可以再提高那我必須肯定這個政府現在已經你們應該是會上路啦現在孕流子津貼六個月你要多延長一個月嘛就是可以七個月嘛父母親加起來就可以14個月嘛對不對什麼時候正式實施 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6160.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6167.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
第一個這涉及到修法第二個其實針對整體的雲流停制度我覺得我們在整體的檢討中 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6169.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6192.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
那我們希望有幾個重要的方向第一個我們希望能夠更加鼓勵爸爸參與然後希望能夠讓育兒的父母更減輕一些負擔那也希望能夠更包容更彈性我們基本上在這幾個方向上我們會來總體的思考相關制度我具體的主張第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6193.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6195.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我非常支持這個要延長就是把原來6個月延長到7個月這個我是非常贊成的第二個我贊成的是應該要符合現在的薪資跟物價的狀況舊保的天花板45800這個天花板應該要打開 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6213.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6216.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
有機會再上調不應該是一直維持在這樣子那所以如果把這個津貼上調的話最高可以比照災保是72,800但是你們可以去衡量這所有的這個經費就是救保的經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6229.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6256.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
但是一定要調高我覺得這個會讓家長實質而且是非常有感的這個也是在國發會最近一再對大家講說少子化政策我們會推出一些新的坦白講我覺得勞動部在這當中扮演一個非常關鍵的角色一個是育嬰留子津貼的這個部分時間拉長金額加高然後這個父母親雙方都可以來而且之前已經講過了可以用 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6258.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6275.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
這個這樣的方式就是讓父母親可以得到更多照顧另外一個就是你的這個減少工時然後給薪我覺得也會非常的有感我希望國發會將來要推出來的勞動部佔了一定的比例很多我現在覺得你們比衛福部更有力 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6276.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6300.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
就是你們獅子給勞工的你們出得起錢你們給的是最獅子的又能給家又能給錢你知道嗎部長你對於勞工對於少子化的貢獻是可以很大的這個部分我希望你加油這部分我們剛剛今天跟媒體說明之後我們部分會來正向的評估那我們也覺得這個做法其實對於提高比較高薪的勞工你可不可以一個月之內就把這個方案端出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6302.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6323.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
還是說你一個禮拜你很有魄力不用了這個禮拜我就直接我們會盡快盡快好那我希望你一個禮拜之內把好消息告訴大家好不好我們會盡快好一個禮拜那最後一點我要問你除了剛剛講的勞保最高級距45800大家看這個圖表10年動漲高薪低報 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6325.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6343.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
這個勞工的退休金他再怎麼努力拼命他可能加薪了但是他的退休金被偷走了你看看這個圖表完全不合理我們的地板就是有一直在調可能隨著物價一直往上調但是我們的天花板數十年如一日完全不動就是不動這個也是勞團的訴求我請教部長你覺得這個合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6347.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6373.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
這個是不是應該好好研議就是怎麼樣去突破這個天花板你根據物價水準也好這十年來已經漲了多少但這個部分不動如山這個合理嗎跟委員說沒有第一個確實在勞保的投保級距的這個最高級距的問題上這當然大家都很關心那我想各方的意見我們其實也都掌握那我們也願意來思考但的確是因為涉及到比方說在勞保上面相比於 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6375.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6393.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
救保因為它涉及到更多的在財務上面的壓力我知道但是現在政府已經要負擔最終責任因為它涉及到更多財務上面的壓力所以在這個議題上面我們也會比較謹慎一點你這個的調整你要多少時間你一個月可不可以把你們到底要不要調整一個月之後研議出來告訴大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6395.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6415.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我們的確這邊會比較多考慮是在財務上面的部分所以我說所以你要多久時間我跟委員說明能做的部分我們會盡量來做就像剛剛講到好那你知道承諾本席舊保的部分好不好舊保的部分剛剛縮減工時的部分你這個對爸媽立即有感的政策我希望你趕快上路那你這個我當然也知道他需要一點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6416.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6438.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
但是我覺得這個天花板還是得打開不合理啊十年動長真的不合理調整幅度多少可以在意但是都不調整你看看這一個曲線圖所以你如果一直都不調整將來的樓地板跟天花板就是一樣的你知道嗎這個是非常荒謬的事情我希望這個部長你這個可以好好演繹好不好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6439.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6457.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
好 謝謝王玉民委員發言 待會等邱政軍委員詢答完畢後休息10分鐘 接下來我們請邱政軍委員發言主席好 我們請洪部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6463.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6469.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
球員好部長好部長你還記得你當初是什麼理由讓你從這個立法委員洪森漢變成勞動部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6474.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6495.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
當時勞動部是爆發職場霸凌然後救安基金被當成小金庫亂花大家才寄望你這個有理想的我們洪聖翰委員來撥亂反正那你那時候就說要讓救安基金回歸本質你說基金的每一分錢都用在勞工身上絕不能用在官員的行政管理或大外宣上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6496.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6514.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
部長是說那時候你有講過這句話對吧第一個我們希望用在勞工身上然後第二個是我們其實在當時在1月的時候去年1月的時候其實提出來一個改革方案也就是說我們直接希望如果要用在行政上也是用在直接服務勞工的這個預算中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6515.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6534.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
這個報告指出115年度勞動部及所屬的公務預算案與就業安定基金的預算案互有移編那你上任之後把原本不屬於就業安定基金用途的部分移回公務預算的支出就移走了2.4億這一點大家都非常認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6535.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6554.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那但是你又反手把原本的公共預算像執訊啊 檢定啊 甚至關於出國費林明總統就3827萬又塞回國安這個救援基金了然後在預算中心報告第二點點名公共預算跟基金互有一邊這代表勞動部在 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6556.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6583.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
這個編密115年預算的時候為了減輕公務這個預算的壓力把原本用於出國的行政辦公行政的經費改由救安基金來支付那加上其他的部分讓救安基金出現行政化社福化公務化預算化的現象又伴隨資訊接力不足跟預算界線混亂的問題不然你怎麼可以這樣你是怎麼贏的 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6584.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6604.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
跟委員說明第一個我們的確是把比方說有一些過去大家比較會詬病的梅宣的部分我們認為就應該移到公務預算裡面去那第二個其實剛才委員剛才講到有幾個訓練的部分訓練的部分本來就是救安基金的任務他是直接服務勞工的任務所以我們把他 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6606.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6630.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
過去他這其實是用到公共預算裡面訓練的部分我們應該把它移回救安基金所以你這個很如同你知道嗎因為你勞動部你本來就哪一件業務跟勞工沒有關係不是勞工沒關係是職業服務比方說像職訓職業訓練本來就應該要用救安基金來去做服務我整理出來這個大概有40億你有沒有更詳細的說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6635.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6654.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
跟委員說第一個你剛才講的這裡面有29億其實是生育補助然後有5億其實是這個以日申請育嬰留庭津貼所以其實每一個預算的增加或減少我想我們都可以提出說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6655.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6684.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
並不是這樣說40億並不是說40億好像我們就是亂花亂編是這樣的我希望說因為我看到這個我們勞動部的業務啊當然一定是跟勞工有關啦那這個界線我希望你能夠把它弄清楚那希望部長給我這個你自己要承諾的事情你一定要做好因為我也說明其實在去年的我們的經濟方案出來以後其實已經增加了內控跟外積 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6686.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6709.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
去年的救安基金不管是在編列跟執行上面目前都已經進行內控跟外積來去檢討那一些過去讓他認為有爭議的使用我們也直接在救安基金裡面把它給移除也不可以在救安基金使用你不要像那個美國的花生拿到台灣來磨碎的加點糖包個罐子就變成花生醬就變成媒體影台灣你剛剛說的像執訊我們認為就是可以用救安基金的項目不要預算拿過來洗產地這樣好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6711.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6736.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
訓練的部分我們認為就是可以用到我希望你們就一定要做到這一點好不好那我再問一下就五月街頭的抗議有三場這個街頭抗議一個是企業老闆的控訴這三加一的具體內容這個部長清楚嗎清楚那五月一號是勞團嘛他們訴求增加保障那勞退12%這個本外勞全保那部長的看法勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6738.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6744.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
第一個這幾個訴求大概我們都掌握了那我想我們也會在退休金 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6745.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6753.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
這個希望能夠讓勞工的退休金能夠增加錢5月2號這個家務僱主訴求的是減輕負擔廢除空窗期然後停徵就業安定基金這個就業安定費那5月5號我們專業醫護訴求安全公司以專業的價值護病筆錄法反對降考門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6769.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6780.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
那最後一個是一個企業老闆一個泰伯的董事長陳朝旺控訴現行移歸政策與勞權過渡的擴張部長針對這些你有什麼看法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6785.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6803.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
根本說明這裡面有很多的主張會跟他的角色所以其實很多主張之間是不一樣的甚至方向是不同的那這跟他的角色有關那我想對於這個企業僱主尤其是企業僱主來說的話我想我們就是必須依法 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6805.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6830.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
我們就是必須依法你還是要取得平衡啦我們必須依法來處置我覺得還是要平衡如果說這個法規是以前設的那你現在要出現其他問題的時候是不是有必要再檢討部長這個你可能要你們議務單位可能要討論一下文法規當然都可以有檢討的空間但是當法存在的時候行政部門我就必須要依法來處理好那你會不會檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6832.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6856.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
我認為檢討大家都可以一起來討論可是法存在的時候我就必須要依法來處理當然我當然我不是叫你違法我是說你要不要願意願不願意去檢討這個事情所以我們願不願意嘛所以我們你覺得哪一個部分我們可以坐下來談啊對不對你覺得哪一個部分需要檢討我覺得剛剛我們這個企業控訴的這部分我覺得也是可以談的你覺得勞權過度擴張有一點有一些啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6860.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6885.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
你覺得沒有必要談嗎我覺得各種的方向我們都願意一起來討論我覺得這是互相之間的一個討論我覺得這個應該是開放的但是任何的裁罰不管是中央不管是地方我想都是裁罰上都必須要有所根據要有所理據我想這是行政部門必要遵守的事情那再問你護理人員數學的部分法規在 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6886.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6906.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
衛福部嘛那但是九成以上的護理人員都是勞保身份護理人員走上街頭那就因為他們發現身為勞工我的勞動條件卻不受勞動法的保障那身為專業醫護我的專業法規卻不保障我的勞動安全那對於三班護病筆錄法你的態度呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6908.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6936.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
委員你不是覺得勞全過度擴張嗎沒有我是說都可以討論我現在講的是說第一個我們第一個勞動部非常的努力我們也很願意來看怎麼樣來提高醫護的勞動權益所以在去年我們其實也做了好幾個相對應的制度的調整就是希望來維護醫護的勞動權益的部分那當然三標互不秉入法的問題現在是衛福部目前正在討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6937.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6966.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
那我們當然希望 我的確也認為尤其現在護理人員的勞動權益是需要來提升的所以是支持的嘛那我們希望說這個部分能夠盡快因為剛剛講說勞權是不是擴張但是我們也要考慮我們僱主的一個運作那整體下來才是健全的而不是說我們多偏袒任何一方我覺得要公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6970.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6992.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
我們是勞動部那任何的政策當然都需要有一定的橫評也必須要考慮雇主的可行性這部分在政策的規劃上都需要考慮包括法規的嚴定上也都要考慮雇主或者是企業的可行性我覺得這都需要考慮但我們的確是勞動部我們很優先的工作是勞動權益的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6993.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7012.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
那關於印度移工的部分你們現在決定怎麼樣你是要進還是不進跟文說明第一個印度移工的議題我們來說有兩個前提第一個是企業端要有這個印度移工的需求第二個印方所提出來的一些執行的做法要能夠符合我們的要求跟把關 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7013.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7031.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
那在沒有達到這兩個前提之下就沒有所引進的問題那2026年來提案四大具體的訴求那第一個是無限期暫緩引進嘛第二個公開治安風險評估第三建立性別意識篩檢機制第四強制性法律責任與壟斷機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7033.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7056.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
那我要求就是說你們在社會還有疑問之前你們不能引進如果真的一定要引進就要符合這些要求可以嗎可以做到嗎第一個我們目前並沒有一個時程表好那我再問一下我們現在失聯的移工大概有9萬多人那目前你們打算怎麼樣是要你們有上限嗎你要讓這個黑數 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7058.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7087.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
要繼續降呢還是有一個有一個封頂的人數第一個跟委員說明在世界銀行我們很關注所以我們的確都會繼續強化後端的查處這部分我們跟移民署會來做你們移民署才一萬多人啊那負責這個查處的人只有五百人你要不要去查這個九萬多人我覺得他們要怎麼做所以跟委員報告所以這是為什麼我們必須要再精進前端的管理作為尤其是 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7089.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7095.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
企業或者是目的世界機關目的世界主管機關能夠提出警戒署所有的員工警察也才7萬多人 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7097.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7121.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
他都比我們警察還要多啦對所以我們其實最近很積極的來找這些包括像農業部像國土署像經濟部來討論我們怎麼能夠更精進前端的管理的作為來降低失聯的人數那也包括其實在一些國際景點也看到如果可以對讓移工可以減少這個負債的話也這部分也會有一些幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7122.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7144.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我這樣講啦就是說我們既然查不到他的人你可以控制他的金流嗎因為他錢做了馬上就匯回去啦如果這部分你把他擋住咧我以為金流不是勞動部這邊可以控制的你是勞動部你主管單位你可以邀請這些相關單位來協助嘛來討論嘛有沒有想過這個問題如果當然涉及到違法的狀況的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7147.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7167.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
他們就是黑工啊我想這部分可以跟金管會這邊再討論但我們勞動部不太可能我自己去管我主張金融斷根啦當他在這邊賺的錢沒有辦法匯回去的時候這個部分他就自己會跳出來了他就不想在這邊做了啦就是看勞動部有沒有決心要去處理這個事情有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7171.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7187.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我還是要說對於帳戶的管制這件事情不是在不是啊我是說你有沒有決心要管這個減少這個失聯乙工的問題我們當然希望更積極的來去面對這個問題因為社會也很關注積極是什麼意思是要積極然後我很注意然後我什麼事都不做當然不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7188.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7212.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
所以包括我們要去協調各部會必須來針對這個事情做好他目的世界主管領域下面的移工的穩定的聘僱方法那我這樣啦剛剛我有講這個意見啦你一個月給我資料可以嗎我可以給你資料好 謝謝好 謝謝邱正軍委員發言重新宣告待會兒在廖偉祥委員詢答完畢後休息十分鐘接下來請廖偉祥委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7221.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7221.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
謝謝主席 請紅部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7231.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7258.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
部長好部長這個五一勞動節剛過我想今天應該也很多人關心相關的議題那我想要先請教針對勞工團體有提到有關於勞保年金制度有關勞工退休保障但勞保這個投保薪資上限自2016年的時候調高至45800元之後至今10年沒有再調整好那所以有很多高薪低報的問題比比皆是 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7259.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7267.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那例如呢勞保局在2月份的統計數據投保的薪資級距落在最高級的45800的有3749710人但對比提繳上限為15萬的勞退薪資這個月繳 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7279.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7284.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
45800元以上的人數有2747890人所以呢這2747890人的勞保救保都是屬於高薪低報並且勞退薪資的平均提繳是 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7294.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7310.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
8129元也是高於45800所以翻開過往的投保薪資級距是從18級又變成11級原因是因為最低基本工資也有上漲但上限卻是始終不動已經嚴重的失衡的現象所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7311.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7329.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
2006年的時候勞保天花板是基本工資的2.77倍還能有效區分出不同薪資階級的勞工但是到了今年基本工資已經來到29,500距離45,800的上限倍數已經縮短只剩下1.55倍所以基本上就是樓地板要撞到天花板 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7330.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7354.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那過去20年也不斷的這個宣傳調升基本工資但是又關於廣大勞工退休勞本的勞保上限20年來也只微調過一次那這個漲幅也是幾乎是微乎其微的4.3%所以你再不調整的話以後全台灣有一半以上的勞工不管是薪水有多高投保集聚全部都塞在同一個天花板裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7355.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7374.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
所以這算是什麼樣的分級制度呢況且如果增加一組最高投保級距到四萬八千二也會連動到影響請領育嬰津貼的金額那每個月他可以多領一千九百二十塊所以想要請教部長何時可以正式的公告提高級距 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7375.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7402.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
跟委員說明第一個其實在我們幾個社會保險的級距上面尤其是那個最高投保級距上面的確這部分大家討論很多那的確因為勞保他的財務的狀況壓力是比較大的所以在提高級距方面上我認為大家我們可以一起來討論但是這也是因為他的財務的壓力比較大所以這也是為什麼一直以來在這個議題上面勞動部是比較審慎的 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7404.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7411.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
那但是你剛有說要研議嘛你們有在研究嘛評估是嗎對不對根本說明第一個我們現在在評估的是救保 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7412.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7439.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
你說舊保跟這個老保要脫鉤就是我們現在在研議評估的是舊保跟老保的最低上限是不是可以來脫鉤我們目前在研議這部分所以剛剛委員說的那個雲林流停的幾戶他不是來自於老保他是來自於舊保那請問你們脫鉤是這兩個問題第一個你剛剛老保的這個提高這個你們應該也要同步的去研究我們願意持續的思考跟研究但我說因為老保的財務壓力是比較大 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7440.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7467.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
對 但是你什麼時候可以研議出來呢就我們都知道勞保的財務壓力啦那舊保沒有我知道舊保相對比較沒有財務壓力所以舊保如果可以先做的話那就是兩個問題要問部長第一個舊保勞保勞工你一直說這個你們在研議那請問時程到底是什麼時候會有具體的具體的這個成果然後另外一個問題就是剛剛說的你要研議說因為勞保的壓力比較大那盡快請問是什麼時候是一個月還是兩個星期 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7468.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7474.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我們覺得應該可以在一個月內一個月內一個月內可以有成果好 那你另外一個勞保的部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7476.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7503.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
老保集聚的部分呢請問老保集聚它涉及到的財務壓力就真的是比較大所以比較大還是要面對嘛因為你這個地板已經快要撞到天花板了那請問你這個部分是不是也應該要同步的微幅調整或者是怎麼樣去分批的去調整它這部分請問有沒有相關的研究有沒有在啟動研究我想這部分我們會持續的來檢討跟思考啦對但是我還是不想你持續的檢討跟思考沒有具體的因為因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7504.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7522.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我們從整個勞保基金的財務的角度來說我也必須考慮勞保基金的財務你必須考慮沒有錯所以你必須去算嘛你必須要有報告你必須要去研究到底怎麼做那請問這個部分你們有在研究嗎我們有那什麼時候會有具體的成果研究的成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7523.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7549.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我想我們衝擊是多少那怎麼慢慢調我想我們可以這個也許可以兩個兩個月左右來來提供委員一些項目兩個月嗎對好所以一個月一個月是有關於這個你們一個月內可能會提出版本有關於舊保跟這個勞保脫鉤的部分就一個月內會有版本提出舊保這邊上面的想法啦對對嘛就是舊保針對舊保我剛說第一個問題一個月內會提出想法可是不會有版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7550.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7566.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
因為他要有一些法制作業所以一個月內是會有方向和成果具體的承諾但是修法的部分還要看後續的法制作業這是第一個那第二個的話就是有關於這個勞保的天花板的集聚的部分你說兩個月內會演繹出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7570.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7590.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
我們會給委員進一步評估的資料好 那兩個月內就是勞保的部分那請給本席辦公室你們的資料然後到時候是不是也給未還委員會相關的資料好不好 委員會的委員們那另外 部長3月1號的時候台北市也率先推出育兒減工時的補貼制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7592.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7617.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那也要延長試辦到12月底而且現在其實有332家企業響應喔好 推出之後我想好評也是不斷那也有很多地方政府都想要跟進喔但目前地方政府很多是反映說這個各自的財源不一呀那也有限那我也詳讀了一下你們救安基金的預算書以及勞動部的114年的施政計畫的各重要計畫項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7619.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7645.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那其中在勞動扶植退休業務中本來就有推廣企業辦理有限職場措施提升員工工作跟生活平衡或是促進婦女在就業等重要的計畫項目那想要請教部長勞動部是否可以將這個補貼育兒減工時的納入勞動部的政策計畫中並且協助補助地方政府辦理這項業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7647.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7667.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
第一個跟委員說明地方政府做這樣子的一個嘗試我們還是說我們是正面看待那第二個是我們認為這個不管是彈性工時或縮減工時它的可行性要拉高的話關鍵是配套的完備那我想我們其實有針對這個議題在做研議有在研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7671.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7687.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
預計什麼時候那如果我們要提出相關的做法的話那我想我們要提出一個更完備的配套部長我們這本席是希望胡宇老可以一起做啊好由中央政府統一來做來推動所以我是說關鍵是要讓配套更完備 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7687.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7712.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
是 那請問配套打算什麼時候會有個完備的研究方案出來就是我們其實也是在近期綜合的在檢討所有的少子化相關的做法是 剛剛本席10點才開了一個記者會就是跟這個全國家長團體聯盟啊他們對於當然除了這個育兒的經濟支持很重要之外還有這個職場友善所以我想如果地方政府推動覺得目前都還不錯我是認為勞動部應該主動出面 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7716.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7736.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
負責的來推動這件事情況且我覺得關鍵是要讓他的配套能夠更完備配套很重要我也認同但是配套更完備是他能不能夠更可行適用方法更大的關鍵會是在配套的更完備那我所以就要進一步問部長那你所謂配套完備有沒有時程有沒有要在這裡可不可以告訴大家你打算怎麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7736.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7763.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
配套完備我想我們也是希望在這一兩個月內可以提出一些相關的做法所以第三個承諾就是這一兩個月內會提出相關的修法方向對不對相關的做法相關的做法好那因為我也要在這裡給你看我去翻了一下救安基金呢預計今年底的現金也會來到438億那也比114年底390億然後還有113年底的305億有大幅的增加那況且今年4月勞動部實施 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7765.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7781.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
這個家中有一名12歲以下可以併顧外傭的政策這部分的收入也還沒有計算進去所以今年底的現金跟根本是有機會可能會突破440億所以我想這部分部長您應該要趕快來把配套完善之後來 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7782.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7797.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
來補助地方政府因為我想這個如果是一個大家都很期期望的政策而且可以幫助所謂少子化幫助讓這些職場友善的話我們希望部長這部分如果要做資源的投入應該不是補助地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7798.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7819.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
是要對於勞工或對於企業給予協助不是補助地方政府由他們去第一線去幫忙啊對不對因為他應該是要給要補助但是他們還是要幫你們這個但是我們希望呢地方政府但是補助的對象其實主要是補助當然是補助給勞工啊但是你給到但是你這個錢必須支持地方政府也去推動這件事吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7820.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7843.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
現在其實看起來救安基金的這個錢也蠻多的那項目也符合我們在相關的措施跟做法上面第一個我們現在當然也要做財務上面的評估那我們會盡力去爭取相關的資源部長這裡今年真的就是超過440億那這個東西又很重要所以請部長兩個月內提出具體做法那再來另外有關於這個勞工退休金 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7845.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7855.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
條例的第12條規定部長知道現在一個勞工如果工作滿12年發生資遣的話這個勞工可以領資遣費最多是幾個月的薪資嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7856.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7874.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
六個月六個月好那再問部長如果一個勞工工作滿30年那他也為了公司勞心勞力近半輩子他可以領多少的資遣費目前法規上面也是六個月也是六個月對所以我就想問一下部長如果一個人呢為公司付出超過12年甚至20年到30年 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7876.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7892.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
那其實他要再去找另外一份工作他被資遣之後要找另外一份工作其實是很難的啦難度可能比他年輕的時候更高那他同樣只能拿六個月的資遣費這樣是不是對於長年付出的勞工來說是不公平的 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7893.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7920.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
文第一個我知道文其實在擔憂的事情是之前費的比例跟雇主是否會輕易支錢這事情的關聯性那這當然我們認為應該還是必須要從個案的一些事實去認定那目前法規上如果要解雇一個勞工他其實有在勞基法上面要相對應的要件部長不是我現在要跟你說剛剛我也講時間了你12年你工作12年是6個月那你工作30年也是6個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7920.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7943.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
而且他工作30年之後他如果要轉職他如果要轉職去找其他的職場是更困難的那所以本席在這裡呼籲你們是不是應該要去研議取消這個資遣費6個月的上限然後呢這個部分才可以比如說每一年就是多半個月所以就像現在嘛12年是領6個月嘛所以換言之每多一年是多半個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7945.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7962.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
這個部分是不是可以去做推動呢關於自檢費的比例或上限的問題的確還需要從各方去考慮這個部分的確會需要各方去考慮需要各方考慮那你可不可以去研議一下這個部分當然我們可以研議你可不可以去研究給本席報告我們可以評估一下我認為這個應該做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7962.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7989.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
因為12年跟30年如果都一樣6個月其實是不公平的我們可以評估這個議題所以請部長去評估但是的確在這個時候可以給本席初步的評估會需要多做一些各方的考量譬如說有哪些考量其實因為就像我剛才說其實你要支撐一個其實請一個員工甚至有些部分還會涉及到預告期等等等等所以沒有你那是細節配套啊但本席講一個大方向啊是30年跟12年是一樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7991.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8010.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
對所以我們願意來去做更多的來去思考跟演繹那我再提報告給委員對也是一樣一個月嗎初步的兩個月好不好兩個月所以是跟剛剛前面的勞退的部分一樣兩個月內好那最後因為王宏偉司長也上來最後因為7月份即將上任即將實施這個外送專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8011.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8033.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
好那我想要請教想要掌握一下現在各部會的狀況因為當初有說各部會有各自的各司其職的定型化契約應記載不得記載事項請問一下目前的進度怎麼樣是不是部長可以說明一下目前勞動部我們這邊會進行的執法跟應記載不得記載事項的要求這部我們都在如合如圖進行中 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8034.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8058.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
你們中間有沒有跟他們開了幾次會議呃呃太多多次了十幾次的會議但是本席也接到很多這個反應說好像開會的次數沒有很多呃這是非常非常密集的討論是然後第二個那經濟部那些的那經濟部跟交通部他們其實也在進行他們的部分對那你有去掌握嗎他們現在的進展有因為剩下兩個月囉對有進度有進度所以沒問題齁好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8062.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8071.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
好 謝謝廖偉祥委員的發言重新宣告待會在蘇清泉委員詢答完畢後休息十分鐘接下來請劉建國委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8074.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8093.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
好 謝謝主席 部長不用坐了 回來 嘿 謝謝注意勞動部發布新稿 公布115年第一劑全產業的重大職災死亡統計 截至3月31日這個全產業重大職災死亡人數為50人 較114年度同期59人 減少9人 降伏約15% 部長滿意嗎我不敢說滿意 我們會持續努力 持續努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8100.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8114.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
那其中營造業的死亡人數是27那佔全產業的50%也就是營造業仍然還是植栽的死亡率最高的一個產業別最多是最多的好 那請教部長去年114年度的這個第一季營造業的死亡人數是多少114年的第一季 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8123.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8138.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
對不起,我要看一下,沒有去背他的數據我這邊有資料,是8,都沒有記起來然後剛剛是27,所以你這樣對照起來是增加是18對啊,就18嘛18、27,所以營造業是增加增加50%,對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8141.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8159.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
所以這個我就必須要提醒部長你說這個數據帶來一個警訊沒有錯今年的第一劑整體的職災死亡人數它是有減少但是在營造的職災死亡率他每年都已經佔了一半然後在今的第一劑又對照去年的第一劑又增加到50%是 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8161.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8182.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
怎麼處理 怎麼應應 怎麼防治第一個跟委員報告因為營造業其實絕對是接下來重大職災死亡的重點所以當然我們其實在去年11月也是在委員的協助之下修過了職安法以後那接下來就是在營造業我們就開始希望能夠做這個源頭或者是業主責任的 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8183.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8211.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
相關的要求跟管制所以我們的相關的執法其實會在7月1號上路當然不一定每一個法條都是7月1號開始啟動會有一些輔導期但是我們都希望法規的上路以後都對於尤其現在大家最關注的營造業的部分會有更多的幫助不然你在看上面那個數據14年來對照13年其實你在營造業的整個死亡率它是有下降的 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8212.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8216.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
但是我們今年對照去年第一劑就增加50%這顯然 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8219.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8248.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
有很大的這樣的一個調整跟因應的作為可以來降低啦那我當然知道7月的話我們子安法在去年12月19號通過之後7月2號就要上路了嘛所以也希望給整個職場給所有的全國勞工都有更好更棒的這樣的一個環境跟保障嘛但是但是我們看整體的支持能力照理講應該要對比14年更低啦這個目標是大家要努力要打拚嘛那去年前全行業的 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8249.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8263.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
這個職業列比的死亡率259營造業則是113我覺得這樣數據部長今天可以承諾1.5年度他可以再更低嗎我們當然希望我希望你承諾不是你希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8265.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8286.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
你的希望是前面兩個字我是後面希望承諾就是更低我們會努力推動啦我們會盡最大的努力來推動我用這樣的數據很清楚啦1.13對照1.14那就是減少嘛對不對但1.15對照1.14的低劑在營造率它增加問題是所在在什麼地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8290.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8312.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
第一個當然第一劑因為113那個113人是他是全年的嘛那我們會盡力來維持讓他可以相比114再減少啦這個數據很簡單啦但是他事實上很有意義啦其實我們做得到不是做不到為什麼這一劑就破功了 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8314.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8335.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
是不是提部長跟書長再思考一下因為其實這幾個月我們其實也很努力跟我們營造產業跟包括安全促進會在溝通甚至結成我們的合作聯盟和安全夥伴聯盟就是希望更正面的來面對這個問題所以我們其實同仁現在很多的心力都在跟這些行業裡面在做前端的管理跟溝通來做前端的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8336.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8357.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
好我要接下另外一個題目了在雲林我的故鄉去年一百一四年度的時候這個全國的這個職災首例已經在減少唯獨雲林現在職災首例它持續在增加一一三年是十二年一一四年不減反正是到十五年了這下一個表格然後然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8358.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8374.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
這五年間就有五十一個人因職災死亡在雲林不能有了解到這個原因還是署長知道嗎就是全雲縣的這個全產業的職業的全產業的職災的首人數它是持續的在往上升 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8376.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8401.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
跟委員報告 確實我們也發現這幾年雲林縣重大紫災的死亡人數在往上升那我們也去分析在雲林縣它的重大紫災跟我們在都會區的類型不大一樣雲林縣大概集中兩個區塊一個是在工業區裡面 就一般的工廠另外一部分是在比較有地方產業特性的就是像農作或是透天處 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8402.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8430.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
或甚至宮廟這樣的一個非例行性的一個作業裡面去發生所以這部分我們希望說是可不可以跟地方政府這邊來加強合作來做檢查有啊你們已經有合作了你們就是有合作還持續的死亡數還是晚上在攀升去年林先生跟我們這個營造業中區職業安全衛生促進會然後締結安全夥伴契約好 廣東部這邊沒有角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8432.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8454.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
沒有?沒有?就是沒有嗎?有,有角色,但是現在就是說我剛剛講那個產業,很多像農作或是像剛剛講這個非地域性的修繕等等,這個有時候是在地方產業部分,我想我們一定要跟地方的相關的局處來合作。沒有,所以他們還喊出一個口號,所謂勞工賣相臨時債,你看部長馬上笑了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8462.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8489.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
這個數字會說話啦 在六都之外啦彰化是第一 雲林是第二然後死亡率 職災的死亡率就是居高不下而且階級上升所以我們再拿第一劑來對比114年度的時候 第一劑雲林兩人職災死亡那今年第一劑也是兩人死亡也完全沒有監管的跡象以這個第一劑來講我想這個職災死亡的數字不只是代表這個代表這個人而已啦 代表一個家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8490.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8511.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
還有代表有為人母為人父為人母為人子整個是這個家庭中外的經濟支柱嘛對不對所以五年內雲林只有五十一個家庭因為職業砸害死亡的然後到現在為止強調他就是他就是一座節節往上升我們怎麼來處理怎麼來營業跟剛剛上面那一題道理一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8512.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8541.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
跟跟我們說明其實我們從今年開始我們把各地方政府就各地各個縣市他的自災自亡的數字公佈以後其實有一些縣市也很積極來跟我們討論他們改善尤其在去年比較增加的幾個縣市其實很積極來跟我們討論一些改善的作為希望強化所以我們有會來跟雲林縣政府討論他們是不是應該有更大幅度的改善那中央我們也願意給予更大的幫助好啦我就拜託部長跟署長如果他們沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8542.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8567.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
如果沒有來找你們,你們就主動找他們?當然那這兩題就兩週內給我一個完整的一個因應的報告了,好不好?謝謝,謝謝主席好,謝謝劉建國委員發言,接下來請蘇清泉委員發言好,謝謝主席,有請部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8575.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8587.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
副長辛苦了我今天有三個問題請教你第一題就是印度的移工今年是什麼時候會進來沒有時間表現在開始要進一千個 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8593.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8621.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
就是要符合兩個前提才有引進那如果沒有符合之前講的兩個前提的話就沒有所謂引進的問題所以哪兩個前提第一個是切端要明確提出對於印度移工的需求第二個是印方的執行的做法要符合我方的要求跟把關要這兩個前提下如果沒有達到這兩個前提的話那就沒有所謂引進的問題你第二個要求比較空洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8624.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8629.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
好,那這個印度移工企業,他是要做營建業還是要做什麼?我們原本規劃基本上是在製造業營建業?對,原本的規劃,一個瞬間的規劃那有沒有看護、長照,這個還沒有啦那營建業,現在應該會越來越缺缺得越來越嚴重,如果有對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8653.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8673.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那日本,韓國都在籌人,日本最近要引進印度勞工,要引進五萬人,還要給五萬人我看他們的統計,說他們的犯罪率什麼的,也沒有比較多啦所以我們對於印度的移工的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8675.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8695.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
嗯,可能也有偏差啦,保證你對這個案件你是贊成還是反對?嗯,跟委員說明,第一個,勞動部的角度就是一個把關者的角度,我們就是一個把關者的立場所以剛才說就是這兩個前提之下,才有所謂的引進,那不然就沒有所謂的時間表 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8699.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8727.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
我們第一題的問題,我們現在失聯的移工差不多將近九萬十萬人嘛,這次失聯的移工,我們平常就這麼多了,這次失聯移工在台灣,現在有在扮演勞動力的角色嗎?當然現在會有一些失聯的移工,當然他現在可能都是在其他地方,這個非法的形式工作,對。 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8729.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8752.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
沒有 他們這些人的因為沒有健保也沒有保險就變成失聯所以就是黑戶啦那偶爾會出意外或者生病來到醫療院所這個是一個麻煩的點那這個這一種的保證你的生活你要怎麼改觀我們又多少次這樣下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8757.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8774.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
報告委員我想我們有幾個面向要處理包括從源頭處理的話我想我們跟幾個目的事業主管機關也都有在討論就是在申請這個開放進一步擴大開放移工的時候他們也應該要提出相應的配套措施如何在他們的產業裡面去遏止他們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8777.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8803.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
失聯情況一再的發生那我們上個月也跟相關目的事業主管招會那他們也有提到說像特別是農業部門的失聯狀況有比較偏高那農業部在這個過程中也提出了一些相對應的措施他們願意在這個第一線的食物工作上跟本部一起合作看如何去遏止這個失聯的情形你現在移民署如果抓到 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8805.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8810.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
後來就在當地的大樓買頭,如果有的是要遷送回國,還是要讓金錢進來買,就幫他們照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8820.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8845.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
這台婆都這樣,處長你知不知道?知道,有一些因為收容替代,所以他們可能...那個就不是勞動部...對,那個是依法,他們也是依法行政那是移民署的事情對,但他們也是依法行政,所以可能會有這樣的情形發生這些移工,失聯的移工,事實上對臺灣勞動力扮演的角色有幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8847.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8874.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
這個是我在壁棟、閣樓要看得到啊宿舍也要看得到所以這個部長你還是要想想看要怎麼來規範解決或者是要怎麼配套各位有什麼第一個我們還是覺得現在需要從這個後端的查處要做更多前端的管理源頭的管理我覺得這部分還是重點所以這也是為什麼剛剛署長說我們很積極的找農業部 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8876.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8897.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
那這些目的世界主管機關部會是不是可以拿出更多在前端好好有效管理的做法不然如果只是單靠這個後端的查組的確是沒有,後端查組我們會努力後端查組我們也會強化但是也要搭配前端的管理來降低他失聯的誘因 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8898.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8914.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
因為這是外交,事實上我們印度要進來的,我們也是考慮文化、生活習慣、語言、宗教印尼的也是一樣,越南的也是一樣,泰國也是一樣所以印度加州參選的,我們要反對的問題是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
8918.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
8943.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
我不知道這個社會排斥的反對聲音是要多少,我到現在都想不通啦事實上,我們台灣現在有三四十萬人失業嘛,差不多嘛,我們不認同給失業的人口啦那我們的職缺現在有三十萬嘛,差不多嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
8944.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
8960.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
所以我們每個人來採取這些職業應該就夠了為什麼外勞這麼多?是我們每個人本身勞工有問題是不是?我們不能這樣說啦因為不太能夠去說好像失業的人就直接把他 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
8960.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
8986.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
他們就因為這個也會牽涉到就業的意願或者是他們做職業上面的選擇跟技能那我們會持續的來降低包括的失業率或者是失業人口那第一個當然勞動力還是需要發展的那勞動力的發展第一個當然還是要先從本國勞工的優先來所以不管是就業的協助技能的提升這部分我們都需要再更大力的做這是確實的 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
8987.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9009.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
那的確以現在整體的勞動力或未來的人口結構的話外國的人力的確看起來還是非常非常重要的這部分沒有辦法去迴避那只是在這個外國人力上面我們是要去加強管理那怎麼透過管理的手段讓他可以更好地在台灣穩定的工作來做貢獻也相關的勞動的權益怎麼樣來 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9011.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9040.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
對於外籍漁工來台灣給我們對產業啊各行行業業對我們的貢獻我們不能抹煞他們真的是給我們貢獻了很大的力量這要人珍惜,要人珍惜那你剛才說的就是農業部的問題農業外勞像我們屏東啦、高雄、台南這裡鳳梨啦、鮮魚啦養殖,尤其養殖啦養殖很辛苦的乳牛葉籽啦,蝶蝦啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9041.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9051.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
乳牛,部長你怎麼知道乳牛,你怎麼知道乳牛在乳農的伯母啊,就要開始幫人家給乳牛聽,給牠聽到爽差不多12點多就開始倒在牠的...在牠的鼻孔裡面,用嘰嘰的這...沒有一個台灣少年站得住的我有去看過你有看過嗎?對,有來來來,你來到差不多3、4點 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9071.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9083.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
那些牛靚下來,現在衝衝就來燒啊,看是要臨風雨淋,要什麼就來燒,燒一燒之後,就要開始再洗牛條,再給它牛腥褲,煮到好,差不多七點,然後就開始去睡,所以都是沒有鬼魅的,所以台灣的孩子沒有一個動的條,你去看,都在那裡流血在做,都六十幾個七十幾個,在拚老命,所以你這個如果沒有農業外勞, |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9099.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9122.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
我跟你們說,這行業出事了,所以很需要加我們屏東的領土,三萬多頭,彰化、北京、台南、紐約,再來就屏東、萬丹,那是很需要人的,所以農業院老,我要特別的要請部長,你要好啊,屬客啦,現在農業院老有多少人? |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9127.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9141.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
現在我們其實應該在現在大概是兩萬嘛那我們近期其實有在做做以改善失聯率為前提的名額放寬所以近兩萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9144.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9171.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
我們會分階段分階段他如果有達到我們做我們的失聯率改善的要求的話那我們會再多給所以也希望用這個方式來去請目的世界主管機關要再更重視失聯率的部分好那最後一個問題齁時間到了我們這個長期照顧看護現在有23萬看護差不多23萬那這些每個月救援定位是2000嘛是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9173.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9194.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
牽扶是兩千那如果家庭幫養的,你現在要開戶,12歲的孩子可以請,他的家庭會是五千嘛一個小孩的話一個小孩但是特殊家庭的話會是兩千一次回到兩千,五千太貴啦年輕人,阿嬤阿嬤在賺錢,在拚啊,你還叫他五千,就稀哩哩啊誒,不對,先哭了一下,這樣想 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9203.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9221.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
我們在新制公佈了以後我們會來觀察一段時間但是我們就是希望比方說如果是經濟條件比較不好的或特殊家庭或特近或者是他是身上的家長等等的原因的話我們把他的救安費可以降低到兩千就是希望特別考慮這個事情那這個案子已經開始有進來了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9223.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9237.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
現在應該還在很剛開始的階段4月13還沒有開始密切觀察好不好謝謝好謝謝蘇清泉委員發言我們現在休息10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10063.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10078.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
現在繼續開會接下來請林淑文委員發言好 謝謝主席是不是請我們洪部長有請洪部長洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10090.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10109.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
各國都有這個職業傷病低爆的問題尤其是在這種非致死的職災或慢性發作的職業病上更容易被低爆那其實這種低爆的問題各國都有那也涉及很多的因素那在我們的這個職災保險及保護法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10109.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10128.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
我們其實也重新規劃了和調整職業傷病的通報機制那除了專科醫師以外 僱主 醫療機構或其他人員知悉勞工遭遇職業傷病者還有遭遇職業傷病的勞工本人都可以通報職業傷病所以在這種實務運作裡面關鍵資訊就是傷病的診斷 聯絡的資料還有工作相關的性質判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10135.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10162.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
其實這些都是仰賴第一線的醫療人員所以醫療體系很重要醫療體系真的是關鍵的通報的來源但是我們雖然開放了僱主、醫療機構一般人民可以開放通報但是在制度面我們其實都沒有強硬的規範、克責醫療人員必須有這個通報的義務和責任沒有 因為我們怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10163.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10184.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
就是我們在那裡擔心在那裡怕可是我現在要講的是說我們現在只有在重大職災上一定要通報的強制規定重大職災那我們也把法律改成說以前是三死吧還是什麼的現在下修到只有一個死亡或者是這個罹災人數有三人以上或者是有一個住院 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10186.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10194.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
就可以直接通報這樣子雖然有好像放寬可是呢我們必須要講說8小時以內這個傷病的通報這一點其實還是不夠的那這些職業傷病的 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10201.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10226.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
的責任在醫療機構裡面我們大概是仰賴這個專責醫院還有網絡醫院在這種狀況裡面19家的專責醫院99家的網絡醫院在這個職業傷病上去扛起全國的這個職業傷病的這個責任不管是認定的通報的事實上其實還是不夠所以我們在這種狀況裡面要來看幾個數據你來看這個一般醫療機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10234.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10263.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
一般醫療機構就不是專責醫院也不是網路醫院一般的醫療機構因為大家都知道有時候緊急狀況或者是說緊急狀況的傷或者是病他其實到一般醫院裡面去有可能是在急診裡面有時候可能去骨科有復健科什麼科的因為他沒有意識到所以在這種狀況裡面沒有意識到自己可能是職業傷病的那一種勞工其實是最弱勢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10264.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10282.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那他到一般醫院裡面看診可是一般醫院的醫師第一個就是說行政程序上成本很高或者是很繁瑣或者是一般醫師自己的事情就很多也不想把責任攔在身上或者是說其實我們缺少一套讓醫事人員操作起來可靜性非常高的通報系統我們也沒有這樣的系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10292.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10307.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
導致於一般醫師你在一般門診看診的時候發現可疑或者是疑似的狀況要去通報他也不會幫你通報那一定是非常嚴重了他才會幫你通報所以我們看這個通報率113年他一般醫療機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10312.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10338.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
通報了7件然後這個專責下面的認可專責醫院及網絡醫院他是他雖然是那個醫院但是是那個醫院傷病門診以外的其他科別通報的其實就是一般科別不是傷病科別他通報的件數就是29件其實很少幾乎沒有都是沒有就沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10339.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10356.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那我們看下一個數據下一個數據就是說我們的職業傷病的通報數其實是仰賴專責醫院還有網絡醫院一年通報了8000多件大概就是這樣子所以在這種狀況裡面我們要來討論幾件事情就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10361.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10380.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
一般醫療機構我剛剛講行政成本還有可操作的可進性太低所以或者是醫生他有自己的事情他也沒有被法律賦予通報的義務所以幾乎沒有再通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10382.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10387.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那在這種狀況裡面沒有法律強制性苛責於醫師然後仰賴這一些專責醫院的通報所以有可能沒有辦法主動更進一步的去發現這個職業傷病的這些勞工所以難以達到擴大通報和服務的這一個目的所以我剛剛講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10406.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10420.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
這一些沒有進入傷病科去看診的然後到一般醫院急診的骨科的復健科的所以這些就是可能是最弱勢的連認知到自己的狀況都沒有能力的最弱勢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10421.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10442.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
那我要講這個先開頭講這個是因為我要告訴你說丹麥丹麥的經驗2025年12月台灣公共衛生雜誌他們有一篇論文這個論文講職業傷病的通報跟監測以丹麥的經驗對我國制度改革的啟發保證丹麥 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10446.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10469.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
丹麥的經驗 我們就現行的制度就是這樣子強制通報的就是要重大這個事件重大事件就是限縮在有人死 三個人離齋或是有人住院那除此之外都沒有強制責任了那我們要講丹麥 我現在希望你聽清楚丹麥它這個制度不具就是說我們這個丹麥 我要講給你聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10472.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10492.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
他其實是重大職災通報後要連結到勞檢而且要連結到個案管理服務還要再連結到職場的環境改善制度他們的通報門檻非常非常的低不是我們重大職災才通報他們非常的低低到什麼狀況呢他們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10496.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10511.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
政府他們的法律要求僱主或醫師包含牙醫他們只要懷疑任何一個醫師只要懷疑患者傷病跟工作的相關只要懷疑都必須要向勞動保險部門就是AES通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10516.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10542.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
通報前他都不需要問你這一個勞工這個個案可不可以同意都不需要直接就要通報了客責他們直接通報然後他的通報的資料進入了AES整合以後就是勞保局簡單來講就勞保部門勞保局以後他就直接上傳到丹麥的工作環境管理局就是我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10544.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10564.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
職業安全的管理的規範他是自動通報然後就跑到這個勞動工作環境的管理局然後就納入職場風險評估所以他們的通報資料會引導勞檢要出動和啟動換言之他們要去找什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10565.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10583.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
他不一定是因為個案的這個狀況而是特定產業或職業出現比較高的職業傷病的通報率他的被勞檢的機率就要提高但通報的個案個別職場不一定會進入勞檢所以他們這個是其實他們的通報狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10585.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10609.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
是有連結到後面的勞檢的所以這個是很標準的我們通報的目的是什麼職業傷病通報的目的是什麼而且這個制度設計是對醫師也很友善的他們建構了一個非常清楚的法律責任第一個他們要求僱主跟醫師再發現疑似勞工無法工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10610.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10638.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
抱歉這個是另外一個他們現在另一個體系就是說發現勞工超過一天沒有辦法工作就有通報責任第二個他疑似覺得是罹患職災了職業病了就可以啟動通報然後就我剛剛講交給AES嘛所以在這種狀況裡面最終的這個職業災害的因果關係的判斷不是只有一時還包括你的勞動 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10639.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10662.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
部門進去確認所以在這個進去確認的時候他就依法可以取得職災者的工作和曝露的相關資訊然後因為你取得了曝露的資訊然後你就要進行職業傷病的調查和認定所以第一線的醫療人員就是通報責任和義務但不需要負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10663.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10681.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
實質因果判斷的責任這一種通報的設計降低通報門檻強化通報義務然後避免醫事人員去承擔過高的判定責任然後也讓醫事人員免於通報後的法律風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10683.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10690.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
所以他會非常的讓醫師啊有意願而且他們就覺得責務龐大要去通報那為了鼓勵通報他們還怎麼樣呢設計了一個誘因讓醫師鼓勵他們醫事人員去通報他每完成一次的通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10700.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10721.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
就可以申報給付如果需要進一步的檢查這個勞工的職業傷病啊 聽力測試啊 肺功能等啊還可以申請額外的費用除了補償這個醫生說 你在這個程序裡面的行政成本也認同通報行為的公共價值我們要在這裡再講一次 保定 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10722.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10734.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
要認同他給這個獎勵給這個補助是要認同鼓勵第一線的醫事人員他通報的這個公共價值所以這個很重要啊 保證你敢不敢勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10740.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10766.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
第一個跟委員說明其實我們也包括跟我們治安署包括勞保局其實之前也幾度在討論要怎麼能夠讓這個因為其實很多職災的勞工他領給付的時候他一樣也會通報可是往往是在很後面的階段我們希望能夠把他拉到更前面的階段所以剛才委員說醫院如果他願意或醫師職災給付通報你們根本都亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10767.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10784.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
你們連數據都不願意公開你們的職災給付率多少申請案件多少你們連這種資料都不開放給我們查所以我說我們希望能夠讓通報在更前端就能夠進行所以剛才說醫生跟醫院如果在前端願意通報我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10785.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10789.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
我現在告訴你的制度面法治面就有缺失了好的經驗我們都願意來參考對但你們法治面這個都法治面包括你們對專責醫院的補助你要講說每週開設職業傷病門診五個診次以上每年求診人數130人以上求診人次500人次以上我一年給你補助600萬事實上你的這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10809.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10819.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
光是專責醫院都是靠他們來的可是專責醫院如果開在都市裡面求診人次很高如果你叫他開到農業縣市去你這個根本就不符合這個門檻你要叫他拿了領補助成為專責醫院也不可能六百萬而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10825.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10842.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
都做不到了 做不到了就不可以做了嘛所以你們專診醫院整個不可以開啊各一種我也可以找人家來衝啊 衝量啊 衝完量補助啊但這個診斷證明到你們勞保局去申請給付能不能給付 不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10842.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10871.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
所以你們的補助跟人家這一種通報的這種制度那一段時間自己會差很多所以我現在一直在講說我們目前的通報制度第一線醫療體系的人員他參與度就是這麼有限法律工具也不足法律的設計不好當然就不足也沒有具體的誘因所以我們要你提升一般醫療機構的通報意願跟制度運作的成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10872.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10885.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
第二個你專責醫院金碼的制度運作起來也是門檻很高我剛才剛才說的沒有就不可以做,沒有就充按量但是如果有支付沒支付你去跟老保局大家殺價這不是問題,這不是解決的辦法嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10888.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10904.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
第二個我們希望獲得認可的專責醫院要擴大那他的連絡的那個網絡醫院的數量也必須要有但是你就是說你要做專責醫院你要負責輔導多少的網絡醫院達標以後才能領到六百萬的補助所以你們對專責醫院給他六百萬你們要求要做多少門診人次要輔導多少網絡醫院六百萬而已這個市民這個國家對這件事根本老實說不是很在乎啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10918.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10936.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
因為我們職業傷病的勞工你開的越多可敬信越高我最越容易去看職業傷病門診科他有可能給付要增加但您勞保局就是在這種狀況裡面他願意給付多少這個你們連數據都不敢公佈所以我們在這裡講 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10938.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10949.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
開了診斷證明書了但到你們那裡幾戶多少 幾戶乘數多少 幾戶案件數多高比例不知道我們立委也不知道 一般人也看不到因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10952.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10976.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
攤開可能不好看攤開行政部門不好看所以我們在這裡講說台灣有看起來好像有多重的這個通報和監測機制但是呢制度根本就是沒有真的沒有實質沒有實惠啦所以在這裡我剛剛講的連一般的統計分析公開的報告資料然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10977.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11004.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
你要建立一套完整的資訊統整機制整合職災通報特殊檢檢職業商品通報職災保險給付這些資料庫的統計跟分析通通都沒有那你沒有這個你怎麼作為職場危害預防的措施跟職災這個勞工保護制度的這一個檢討的依據呢我再講一個你的通報數跟最終勞保局給付的核定數 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11005.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11026.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
然後呢你的這些門診傷病專科的門診的診斷證明跟給付之間它的落差有多大給付率幾成這個也是一個問題再來講透過這些數據我們還要看到哪些產業它的風險是高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11027.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11046.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
這個是我們要透過現在是大數據時代AI時代你把這些資料跑起來我想五分鐘以內通通都跑得到建置起來馬上都看得到可是你們都沒有建置光是這個系統的建置你就應該立即馬上做不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11047.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11062.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
根本說明我應該的幾個建議我會請我們治安署跟勞保局我想兩個月好不好那做一個整體的檢討那能夠再改善的部分尤其是系統端能夠改善的部分我們就來改善好那我最後再講 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11062.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11066.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
我不是要否定說你們其實都沒有作為但是就是說我們更應該檢視你們現在這一套職災的通報的制度是不是真的能夠把主動的去把職業傷病的勞工找出來而且是最弱勢的沒有自己傷病的這個意識的 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11080.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11088.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
那能不能讓通報的資料轉化為職場的改善把那些停留在少數職業醫學專科專責醫院和網絡醫院的那個通報的局限給他打開所以通報的這一個系統我們要講說不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11100.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11123.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
這個系統不是說作為累積、統計數據而已而是要接觸到真正的潛在的職業傷病的個案因為我剛剛講過很多勞工他看的是門診、急診、復健、骨科、皮膚科、胸腔科、鼻喉科、身心科他們的疾病可能跟工作暴露、長期滋事負荷、化學物質粉塵、噪音輪班過勞和職場壓力有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11125.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11134.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
但你們在於第一線的醫師如果沒有足夠的意識沒有明確的指引沒有制度的優因沒有法律上的設計沒有責任單上的分散那就可能他們就沒辦法接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11141.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11162.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
接起這一個職業傷病的勞工這個個案可能就不會被接住所以我跟你講職業傷病的統計通報不是為了累計統計資料而是應該要知道有多少人傷病那我們還要把這個曝露的原因環境的改善然後政策的回饋通通要給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11163.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11191.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
這個一個架構給他框起來那我們現行的制度就只做了一個骨架只有統計然後統計還不公開我們根本都看不到人民也看不到那更不用談到這個預防的功能你知道說職災最重要的預防始終是大過於補償的預防才是最重要而更何況少子化勞動力短少在這種時代我們真的是希望他山之石可以公厝 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11192.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11220.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
合理的懷疑就通報作為原則醫生不必在第一時間完成完整的因果認定在這種制度裡面避免的這個承擔全部的法律責任然後主管機關要擔負起這一個責任很重大的一個現場的調查然後這個責任的確立因果關係曝露的歷史 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11221.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11229.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
他都要進場去蒐集的所以這個是要法律工具也必須法治化的所以我們是希望說保定 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11231.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11259.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
我們不是把勞工的名字登入進去通報的系統而已我們要讓每一筆通報都成為下一次傷病的線索這個傷病不是運氣不好有可能他是長期工作環境長期累積下來的通報找出風險促成改善那我們希望第一個你要盤點一般醫療機構通報案件數偏低他在制度面的缺失是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11260.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11278.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
第二個檢討是否對醫事人員或醫療機構要建立合理的懷疑就通報然後明確區分通報跟最終職業病的認定的責任不要全部都叫醫師扛起來這個制度要怎麼設計第三個設 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11279.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11307.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
既合理的誘因包括通報的給付必要的檢查費用行政成本也要給醫生你們應該建置一個操作起來可靜性非常高非常容易操作給醫生做我想通報的成本也會下降不要讓通報成為額外的負擔而是被制度承認的公共任務啦我覺得是應該這樣子不然這樣子要做的真的很多很多欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11309.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11331.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
可以嗎你剛才講的層面真的涉及到很廣但是基本上的主題就是危要的通報這件事情通報要跟環境的改善這一個個案的服務然後再加上下一場職災的避免因為環境的改善有可能到現場去的時候你就會發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11333.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11359.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那個風險和暴露的風險是什麼我覺得我們願意來在這事情上認真的檢討啦只要能夠做的我覺得我們會盡力因為這東西對職財有幫助對未來的友善的職場也有幫助我再強調最後一點我剛剛講說我們連看這個診斷書跟最後幾副落差是什麼申請案件數跟最後幾副案件數是多少然後相關的資料你都要優先 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11360.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11370.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
知情權先讓我們社會大家知道 資訊公開啦我們一併來檢討 好 謝謝好 謝謝林淑芬委員發言 接下來請王振旭委員發言好 謝謝主席有請勞動部紅部長 有請紅部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11389.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11405.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
部長你好首先還是要感謝勞動部最近的努力先前請勞動部協助的這個利害勞工權益保障的函式我們有看到最近在4月13號有收到看到相關的訊息正式發函內容非常完整感謝部長跟勞動部對利害勞工權益的這個關心 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11408.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11424.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
今天是勞動部預算的詢問主要是要講針對勞工保險跟就業保險脫鉤並調整就業保險設限的部分以提高育嬰留庭津貼的薪資替代率這個大題目來跟部長做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11426.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11448.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
我們最近在媒體上有看到行政院好像有在研議針對零加六歲國家一起養的這個政策進行全盤的調整除了以這個鼓勵生育陪伴養育支持教育為核心提出新成長計畫會再加上從居住職場等五個面向來提供生育家庭所需要的支持那最近包括國科會葉主委到經濟委員會備詢也都釋出相關的訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11451.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11466.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
同時部長在備詢或回應媒體的時候也多次的表示針對這個育嬰友善的政策目前正在研擬希望下半年就能夠提出這個修法的版本那現在已經也五月中了我們還是很期待最後可以看到勞動部提出這個勞救寶脫鉤以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11469.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11496.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
能提高育嬰留庭薪資的這個實質津貼的這個替代率的修法那這個議題包括我在內還有早上本黨的這個林業群召委還有剛剛在現場的黃姐委員都有提到這樣的建議因為這是很多民間團體包括婦女薪資跟托育及就業的這個政策垂成聯盟的長年的訴求之前大家在討論是我要透過育嬰留庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11496.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11505.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
月數6加1來鼓勵雙薪貫穩育兒的時候薪資跟托盟的意見也都建議應該要同步來提高薪資替代率跟放寬請假的彈性 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11506.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11527.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
我們也看到最近這個彈性育嬰留庭新資的成效看起來是蠻好的包括整體的使用率的提升還有燃性使用率的增加都是很好的現象所以接下來我們也希望能夠再提高育嬰留庭期間的這個實質新資替代率這樣的一個討論內容那我們先來看一個數據根據內政部的統計現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11530.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11536.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
我國生育的主力年齡是落在25到39歲這個區間我們可以看到在2024年我國25到29、30到34、35到39三個年齡層一共生育了113、176胎那佔這個同年度的總生育率的83.9%如果我們用這個2024年的同年齡層本國籍全職受僱員工新位中 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11556.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11583.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
薪資的中位數跟平均數來看的話25到29歲平均數每月是53166元中位數是每月44750元那30到39歲平均數每月是62916中位數是每月50666元所以無論怎麼看好像現在這個就業保險以45800元做上限的話都不符合現在的薪資現況跟政策上的需求因為都會擠壓到雙薪債清零這個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11585.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11606.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
育嬰留庭進貼的實質薪資的替代率因為看起來這個投保薪資是8580元的80%的請領的可以請領到36640元就是現在所有可以請領到育嬰留庭進貼的父母領到的這個最高的金額所以如果以這樣的30到39歲本國全職員工 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11609.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11638.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
薪資中位數約5066元為例的話如果不工作而清零的育嬰留庭家庭的收入就會減少將近一萬五千元我想這對這個家庭來講應該是有很大的影響目前男性的平均薪資要比女性多16.1%如果育嬰留庭的這個實質薪資低在不提高的話最後更容易造成薪資較高的男性會繼續工作針對這個薪資較低的女性就會選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11639.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11667.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
做這個育嬰留艇的這樣的現象這個目前制度上的設計呢所能夠符合經濟理性的選項那就不符合我們目前希望父母都能夠請這個育嬰留艇的政策的方向那我們再看一個數據就是根據OECD針對會員國2025年的統計女性換算全新育嬰假的週數就是用有心育嬰假週數乘以薪資替代率日本是26.9週 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11669.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11684.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
南韓甚至高達37週那台灣我們目前以這個投保薪資80%做基準的話6個月就是26週乘以80%最多也是20.8週也都是比日韓還要低更可以提到說現在的薪資 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11685.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11705.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
實質薪資的會有越來越多比這個救保投保薪資上限45800元還要高就等於說我國這個育嬰留庭的實質薪資的替代率真的是遠比80%還要低所以我國育嬰留庭的實質薪資的替代率實在是有提升的空間還有它的必要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11706.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11721.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
那另外我們再來看老保跟舊保投保薪資的上限投國應該是一個未來無可避免的一個需求跟趨勢因為老保因為這個老年年金給付的關係用60個月最高投資的這個平均作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11722.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11746.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
年金清零的計算基數再加上給付到勞工過失的不確定性在目前勞保財務的狀況下就算真的能夠打開這個投保的上限可能都是10年或更久以後才能夠提高一級其實是遠低於現在的物價跟薪資成長的幅度那跟其他的社會保險或者是保障的投資薪資上限比起來舊保實在是真的太低了因為最近我們就過了這個通過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11748.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11768.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
勞工職業災害保險也都是把這個投保薪資上限跟這個勞保投國處理現在的勞保跟救保投保上限綁在一起的原因我們也可以理解主要就是法規制度的這個歷史因素就是當年還沒有就業保險法當時又遇到這個官場潮 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11772.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11791.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
當時希望能夠推動事業給付的時候就會先用這個勞保支付的這個方式來進行事業的給付那所以後來就因為保險法立法的時候很多規定就直接沿用這個綁用綁在這個勞保來施行這是歷史因素而不是現在的政策要求所以我們認為呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11793.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11820.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
因應現在少子化危機以及這個新勞動力的市場趨勢的衝擊應該要配合當下的需求來做法規的調整這是我們目前可以看到的部分那其實我們之前跟部長做諮詢的時候也有討論過這個勞救保托工提高這個救保托保的上限在政策上可能會有兩個因素會互相的衝擊包括就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11820.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11836.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
主要考量財務上能不能夠維持這個平衡跟穩定那是不是同時也會動到這個失業給付跟對這個就業市場的影響這兩大因素會大家會比較擔心可是如果我們從2024年就業保險的這個全部250億的給付 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11841.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11857.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
比例來看的話的確失業給付占到112.5億那育嬰留庭津貼占了107.9億這是這個目前救保給付的兩大支出我們認為不管是失業給付或者是育嬰留庭的津貼來看的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11859.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11879.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
他的給付性質都是比較明確的實現上的限制那像育嬰留庭津貼就是一胎父母各六個月那失業給付原則上也是六個月特殊狀況才會到九個月那請滿的時候呢要重新計算年資而且需要非自願性的離子才能夠請假所以我們認為這些救保的津貼都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11880.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11893.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
相關的勤領的這個條件上的限制跟勤領時間上的限制就在預算上相對是比這個過世的這個勞導年金相對是有限而且是他的這個預算是有他的可控性 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11895.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11911.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
再來多講一點我們也理解勞動部在政策上也會擔心說如果失業給付提高會不會影響到就業白話的說就是失業給付提高會不會讓勞工更不想回去工作那其實我們也了解勤領終究還是有個明確的月份的限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11912.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11936.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
我們也認為在現在這個新時代的就業市場的環境恐怕有越來越不適合用經濟壓力來逼勞工出來工作因為這個會被這個制度設計所逼到最後通常是本身跟家庭就經濟就比較弱勢的勞工就算他被逼著回來可能也都是原本比較低薪的工作中進出其實有更有溢價能力或 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11937.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11961.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
這個家庭條件更好的勞工特別是現在年輕世代的勞工們他就算不勤領失業給付也越來越不會去做不喜歡不想做或者是忍耐不下去的工作這個我們很容易理解所以因應這個新世代的勞動力還有變化這麼快速的就業市場跟環境或許配合調整失業給付也是應該要一併考量方向所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11962.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11987.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
最後我們當然也是理解要提高育嬰留庭實質薪資的替代率至少還有三個途徑我們可以來做選擇第一個就是勞救保的偷鉤打開救保投保的上限第二個就是將現行的這個投保的薪資80%的替代率可以再提高第三個就是直接來增加可知領 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11988.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12003.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
預言留庭津貼的月份因為現在少子女化問題真的非常非常的嚴重所以大家也都希望政府能夠大大擴大來進行改革那針對最近的少子女化的全盤這個政策的檢討我們是希望就算最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12004.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12022.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
不走這個勞救保透過的途徑還是有機會能夠提高育嬰留庭的實質薪資的替代率所以最後要麻煩部長來說明跟回應一下目前勞動部針對這個救保法修法還有如何提高育嬰留庭薪資的替代率還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12023.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12041.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
他現在的這個最新的進度還有部長的規劃跟想法是怎麼樣那看看是否能夠朝著勞救這些勞救保法脫鉤的方向來處理那現在是五月嘛那部長有說下半年度會提出相關的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12043.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12062.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
更完整的那種給大家參考所以是不是能夠在6月底以前提供給我們一份比較完整的書面報告那各位請部長來回應謝謝跟外國人說明一下第一個要謝謝外國人因為外國人其實一直都在督促或者是也在倡議這個勞保跟救保的上限脫鉤的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12064.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12079.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
那現在其實這個問題包括今天媒體很關注那也很多人也都一起在關注這事情我想我們目前已經進入到評估中那的確在這個做法下是可以對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12079.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12107.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
與像申請雲流停經貼的勞工朋友他們的收入有機會假設比較高薪一點的勞工的話他其實是有有更多的空間提升的空間所以我想我們是很真我們是正面的看待這樣這個做法的可行性那我們會盡快的研議那因為這涉及到要修法所以我想我們盡快研議一下包括也把相關的財務評估給做出來因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12108.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12123.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
確實救保基金它是一個社會保險的基金你還是要去做它的財務相關的評論因為這也深受到它的費率或費率的平衡那我們會盡快把這個做法我自己是正向看待那我們趕快來把它演繹出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12124.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12149.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
那來讓大家知道那也希望這對於一些目前少子化的情況也會有一些幫助那委員其他的主張那也都是在針對育嬰留庭部分我想我們針對育嬰留庭我們會綜合的來思考因為現在今年1月1號上路的部分其實我們已經讓他可以一日申請了那現在我們聽到很多的聲音希望他從三歲是不是能夠再提高那這部分我們也在研議中 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12149.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12166.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
所以這裡面會牽涉到很多整體運營留庭政策是不是要更系統性的來去做檢討但我一樣說它會牽涉到我們在給付上面的財務的情況那也包括是不是能夠爭取到這個其他的一些做法的裁員 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12167.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12182.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
所以我們會盡快來提出應該不會太久好 希望六月底我們可以看到書面報告同時也期待這個部長大刀闊斧的這些改革能夠回應社會的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12183.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12198.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
我希望可以,甚至可以更快好,那就麻煩部長,謝謝謝謝王振旭委員發言,接下來請黃秀芳委員發言本委在黃婕委員發言後,我們就休息30分鐘好,謝謝主席,我們請部長有請黃部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12215.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12236.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
秀芳委員好部長好部長這個今年這個彈性育嬰假開始上路在今年上路那上路了也將近半年的時間其實我聽到很多的聲音那我想請教部長的就是在我們這個彈性育嬰假經過半年的這個實施那原本我們就是0到3歲那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12240.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12252.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
就是如果說家長要申請的話就是每天減少一小時的工時那也有明定就是說事業單位不得拒絕那因為其中就是雇主可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12254.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12282.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
減發工資所以導致這個家長申請的這個意願低落我不知道說勞動部這邊有沒有收到這樣子的一些反應那我看到勞動部在114年當時有針對這個部分有做一個調查就是說81.4%的這個事業單位有同意就育嬰勞工申請減少工時那事業單位也有提及如果需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12283.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12308.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
給付薪資的話就有55.6%的這個事業單位就轉而不同意勞工申請所以我們看到實際上目前有申請的這個勞工就是彈性育嬰假的這個部分也不多委員這是兩件事情彈性育嬰假是以日來去做申請的育嬰流是今年1月1號上路 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12309.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12330.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
那目前其實實施的效果蠻好的申請的比例蠻高這是委員左邊這邊談刑金流的部分那右邊是針對性供法下的這個減少工時的部分這其實是兩個不同的政策好那我想請教就是說針對這一部分就是你們這個我接到了一個反應就是說僱主這個可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12335.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12349.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
減發這個工資所以導致這個家長可能他申請的這個意願不是那麼高確實有這個狀況那另外就是說我們曾經也有原本可能勞動部這邊原本也有打算就是說獎勵補助企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12351.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12369.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
的這個補助原本你們我看原本你們有規劃就是有2200萬的這個要補助這個企業就是給予這個雇主就是如果育嬰的這個勞工依法減少工時的話就是給予一些補助那後來好像也喊停了 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12370.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12397.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
跟委員說明第一個這個研議並沒有喊停不然你們現在是其實這個研議持續在進行中那目前是還在研議當中我們還在研議進行中那我們現在希望是在這個彈性工時或減少工時的這個政策上面的關鍵是要把它的配套是做得能夠更完整所以我們並不是喊停也不是暫緩都沒有基本上是正在研議把它的配套能夠做得更完善 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12397.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12401.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
好那你們現在的配套是怎樣因為我聽到的家長他們就覺得說這個因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12405.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12430.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
還需要減薪所以他們可能申請的這個對我說的配套的部分包括是因為大家可能需要綜合考慮今天如果一個勞工他減少工時一個小時那他這個小時的工作因為不同職場的狀況不同有些職場他這個小時他可以減但有些職場他這個小時的工作他就是要找別人來代那這個代理的這件事情是不是也能夠給予一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12432.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12449.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
誘因讓其他的同事來帶的這件事情能夠有更多的這個誘因跟機制的處理我說這裡面也涉及到這樣子的配套所以我們沒有暫停也沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12450.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12475.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
喊停這個都沒有其實是一直在研議這相關的配套那甚至我們是希望真的因為從中央的角度我們會需要思考的會比台北市再來的多因為各個縣市他的職場狀況跟產業樣態往往是不太一樣的所以我們當然會需要全盤的思考但我要說我們是在研議中那當然就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12477.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12502.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
有一些勞工也會反映就是台北市的目前的這個他們的這個整個制度新的這個制度跟勞動部比起來就是他們這個制度是比較優渥的就是說他整個這個資格是家裡面12歲以下的這個小孩的爸媽只要公司願意配合那工資不減那我覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12503.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12516.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
這個變成說一個國家有兩種不一樣的一個同樣是勞工那為什麼住在台北市的這個勞工他的這個福利感覺就比較好嗎所以我希望就是說勞動部針對這部分應該也要再去討論一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12519.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12548.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
怎麼樣讓所有的這個新手爸媽這個所有的這些爸爸媽媽他為了這個要養育小孩當然他會碰到很多的狀況很多的問題小孩子尤其是在幼兒園的時候或者是在托嬰中心可能會碰到孩子們可能就是這個生病那可能他需要帶去看醫生一小時兩小時的這個時間所以我希望就是說不要變成說一個國家然後是兩種不同的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12549.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12571.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
根本說明的確我們是很希望因為當然有地方政府願意在這嘗試我們是正面的看待那我們也在想說我們要怎麼讓這整個的制度運作起來更可行可以適用的人可以更多也可以讓他其實可以適用的層面可以更多我想這都是我們在考慮的點所以我剛才說其實在 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12572.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12592.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
減少工時的政策上面當然大家會從這個新工法第19條的角度會來切入那台北市也是從這個角度來切入但是相關的配套我們怎麼樣設計的更有誘因這是現在不管是對企業或對勞工更有誘因我想這是我們目前研議的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12593.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12620.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
其實我也看到就是說有一些企業他們是適用的對象是擴大適用的對象就舉個例子就是中華電信中華電信他們就擴大適用對象是你只要有6歲以下的子女的員工那他的薪資是照給然後也不影響考積那會讓員工申請的申請率是蠻高的讓員工也覺得有幸福感 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12621.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12635.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
我想請教部長就是說針對全台灣有類似這樣的一個福利的企業到底有多少你們有大約去統計一下嗎跟我的說明的確會有些企業願意他給予 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12636.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12665.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
高于法规的相关的待遇或福利那这部分我们当然非常鼓励所以我们也透过我们其实会有一些这个友善职场的奖项甚至我们接下来可能我们也会来推动一个友善职场的标章来去对这样的企业做鼓励因为我们也听到其实很多企业的人是说他们把职场友善做到更好对于他们招揽人才或留才都很有帮助所以这部分我们我觉得我们也希望大力的来鼓励 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12666.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12681.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
對所以我覺得部長像這樣子的話就是說企業他願意優於法規的話其實我覺得你也要給他們一些獎勵給他們一些鼓勵譬如說也可以跟財政部這邊討論一下是不是可以有某種減稅的一個方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12685.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12704.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
尤其如果他特別是中小企業的話那因為大的企業相對來處理這樣子的勞動議題是比較有能力的那中小企業的部分那我說我們會會跨部會的來討論這事情但目標很清楚就是希望讓職場能夠更友善讓更多的育兒父母不會因為要照顧小孩必須離職 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12707.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12723.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
這個是非常重要的所以剛剛很多剛剛那個王委員有特別提到少子化的少子女化這個真的是非常嚴重我不知道部長你可能每一年的這個新生兒一直在遞減 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12724.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12745.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
那當然就是我們要從這個友善的育兒環境開始所以這個我覺得勞動部在這邊應該也責無旁貸也是要能夠讓所有的勞工未來他要生育小孩他會覺得說我不會因為這樣子然後我的工作就丟掉所以這個是非常的重要所以也希望勞動部在這一部分我們應該還要再加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12746.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12768.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那甚至就是鼓勵所有的這個企業 當然如果優於我們的法規的話 也要有一些獎勵好謝謝黃秀芳委員的發言因為黃婕委員與鍾嘉斌委員調換發言順序我們重新宣告在鍾嘉斌委員詢答後休息 接下來請黃婕委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12775.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12777.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
好 謝謝主席 我們請洪部長有請洪部長歡迎好 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12784.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12810.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
我想要先跟您請託我們有想要關心這個運動員的勞動權益因為其實運動員過去他們大概是在15到29歲就會在體育班裡面上課然後之後到了競技系那之後可能不一定會直接進到運動的市場那這個運動相關的產業的職缺他們也不一定會進入市場之後可能就會退出體育圈了但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12811.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12827.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
這個運動員生涯規劃發展協會的曾理事長有提到說只有大概1%的運動員能靠比賽獎金來跟代言來過活那剩下99%的運動員幾乎不被人知道那我們跟女足公會就有討論到說那這些運動員他們對於勞動權益可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12830.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12855.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
可能是非常意識非常不足的那他們也很需要這方面的資訊所以呢我看了一下我們勞動部目前有五個青年職涯發展中心然後也都會提供這些青年們提供職涯的諮詢甚至有模擬的面試還有職涯的講座等等的服務那我想問我們有去跟體育班的學生或是競技系的學生或者是這些年輕的運動員有提供服務過嗎有接觸過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12858.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12881.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
跟委員說沒有因為我們在青年職涯包括就是我們之前職涯中心或者相對應的資源當然他沒有限制是哪一個領域或者是哪一個專長都可以但是的確你剛剛說到說如果很多運動員他在他的競技生涯上面其實他會需要在他生涯上做很多的考慮那也許也可能會有很多的選擇在思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12883.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12905.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
那所以我自己是認為說我可以請文化安署來研議一下尤其是我們很多運動科系的學生不管是從高中階段或者是在大學階段那怎麼樣讓他們可以更了解我們的這個青年就業相關的資源或者是訓練上面的資源我想我們都願意 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12906.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12923.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
好謝謝部長的承諾我必須要說因為其實體育班的學生或者是他們就算畢業之後要進到相關的市場他們白天幾乎都在練習都在練球都在練他們各式各樣的比賽的訓練當中所以他們就算想要去了解其實白天幾乎都沒時間嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12924.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12930.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
那所以這個相關的諮詢的服務我是希望說我們有沒有比較是針對運動員或者是運動領域相關來替他們開的課跟這種諮詢的內容因為他們的需求可能跟一般的就業市場也不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12940.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12962.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
所以我在這邊希望說我們跟女足公會有討論到說是不是可以來辦理相關針對他們的這個需求來開相關的活動那來跟這些體育班的學生分享到底運動員的職涯發展未來可能會面臨到什麼樣的困境或者是他們會需要的需求是哪一些那在甚至在職場上面怎麼透過這個相關的權益的保護來自我進行賠利 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12969.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12988.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
我想我們是有很高的意願我們可以找我認為我們可以再找運動部一起跟運動部一起甚至跟這些相關的工會或協會因為我就像剛才講到的幾個女主工會或幾個工協會其實我認為他們也非常非常有心所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12989.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13004.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
我覺得大家可以一起來討論用什麼方式可以讓我們這些資訊的可進性再提高讓他們更容易接觸的到或更容易可以掌握這些資訊我覺得這部分我想我們是願意來做這個事情好那在這邊也拜託部長希望說看可不可以今年年底我們就先來試辦一場看看年底太久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13006.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13033.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
太久了嗎?太好了如果可以提前是更好我們三個月內就來試辦好了我們夏天就來辦太棒了好謝謝部長的承諾相信這個女足公會跟很多的運動員都會很開心聽到這樣的消息那再來就想要繼續問我上一次在總諮詢的時候其實就問過部長這個打開救保上線的問題那我想問現在有沒有新的進度了因為當時其實總諮詢完我接到雪片來的雪片般飛來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13034.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13044.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
意見說這個他們太需要了比我想像中的需求還大不管是公務員還是勞工大家都覺得打開上線是必要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13045.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13068.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
跟委員說明的確我們現在在評估中那我是以希望這個評估的結果或者方案的結果其實盡快可以提出來那但的確我們現在在整體在因為少子女化的議題或有算資產的議題其實在評估的點也不只是這一點其實我們都希望對整體的制度做一個檢視所以那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13071.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13088.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
這個在就業保險裡面或就業保基金裡面它涉及到財務所以我們也要必須對財務的因素來會需要多做一些考量但是也很謝謝上次也是上次委員在院會的質詢是的那我們很清楚的知道委員其實對這事情的期待我想我們會盡快 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13089.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13104.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
來處理好啊那看可不可以也是儘快可能這個會期結束之前先給大家一個初步的方向說你們對於救保基金的財務有基本的研究那成果可以讓大家知道我們也是希望金再儘快 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13105.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13132.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
好 那這個拜託部長因為這個舊保基金的財務其實上次也很多人提到說既然可以用基金那或許會是一個比較好的方式但是我還是要提醒說因為舊保基金它涉及到費率的橫頻所以我們也要很小心的來去思考這個費率那它的整個財務的健全跟費率是這個費率是哪因為它現在費率是1%所以我們整體在財務上面如果增加太多那後面就會問到 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13135.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13150.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
這個費率的橫屏上要不要去做檢討所以這裡面牽涉到蠻多的議題但是我想我們會盡快來來做演繹好這個拜託部長我會持續追蹤好謝謝好謝謝黃姐委員發言接下來請突謙級委員發言好謝謝主席那麻煩請一下我們洪部長有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13166.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13188.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
部長那其實剛剛的委員跟前面好幾個委員然後今天也針對我們救保這個天花板調高的部分我也聽到好幾個委員針對這一部分也都有提出表示大家對這一部分的重視啦那也可能因為五一勞動節有很多勞團針對這一部分也有提出那目前我們知道我們就業保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13191.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13210.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
投資薪資級距這個天花板目前最高級距是45800那這部分相對的當然這部分它就影響到我們的失業給付跟我們運營流停津貼那像我們失業給付針對這部分是我們最高級距的六成對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13211.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13235.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
所以當然我們六成的部分就兩萬七千四百八那其實針對以目前來講他如果又要顧房子又要顧生活其實像這失業給付的部分確實也是不夠那當然當然很多委員針對育嬰留庭的部分也是因為目前我們國內有少子女化的問題所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13235.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13258.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
本席其實也有提案那也希望我們這個救保最高級距45,800是不是可以比照我們植栽的部分72,800來做這個處理因為我剛剛聽部長好像對於調高其實也是樂觀其成而且好像信心滿滿根本說我們還在評估中不敢說信心滿滿 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13260.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13285.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
因為制度的調整都必須要很謹慎但是我們的確在這個脫鉤的政策的研議中但是對於委員剛才當然談到說要提高到假如要提高提高到哪裡這部分當然這還是另外一個議題我說這裡面也還是牽涉到整個舊保險的財務的收支的橫頻的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13287.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13296.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
對 那就是說因為本身我們有提案啦因為這個其實也是很多勞工團體的期待那麼多年沒有去做調整那所以我們提這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13298.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13321.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
比照職災這個保險當然也是希望能夠在各種財務財政狀況允許之下我們盡量去提高那當然職災保險這七萬兩千八也只是一個目標啦那所以今天也聽到我們部長也都給予正面的回應而且前面有聽說三個月部長說三個月太久了一個月而且我看 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13321.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13340.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
部長看起來連一個月都覺得有點久所以我們也是很有期待我們很有期待啦應該是說我們會盡快啦然後只要有方案再綜合大家的意見跟考慮然後財務上可行我覺得我們盡快來推出這樣子好 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13341.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13362.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
那今天也感謝部長對於這個部分都給予正面的回應我相信這個勞工團體知道這個訊息應該也都非常高興好那接下來我們針對也是勞工的部分那像我們勞退薪資我們針對個人自體比例的提高不知道部長這邊有沒有針對這部分做一些評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13363.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13385.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
跟有人說明的確我們知道現在這個新制的固體你說字體還固體字體字體字體的部分當然我們希望盡力的來鼓勵大家字體尤其這幾年其實投資的效益好那已經其實字體也有一定有一定的比例的增加但是我我們當然希望可以再增加一些對 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13386.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13409.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
因為我們看字體從105年到113年字體6%勞工人數的比例都高達90.5%以上表示大家對字體6%這一部分也都非常支持而且剛剛部長也有講我們看了一下我們114年新制勞退基金收益7469億那個收益率是15.6%那勞保基金收益數是 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13415.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13431.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
1598億收益率15.57%表示我們整體勞動基金這個收益數歐歷年來的新高這兩年啊我們不敢假設未來都一定這樣這樣假設我們那個運融局會睡不著 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13432.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13460.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
所以我們是希望那如果有這個機會因為我們也是有提案那希望這個自提的比率是不是可以做個調整是不是可以再提高跟人說明因為你剛才講的數字應該是有自提的人百分之九十幾大家都提6%但是我自己是希望是說因為我們希望可以再鼓勵更多人來進來自提然後尤其是 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13461.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13480.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
我們其實真的在這個相關的推估上面的確是提了以後就算不要用這兩年十幾%的這樣子的收益率其實對於勞工的退休金的退休經濟安全都非常有幫助所以我們還是希望能夠把它給 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13481.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13505.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
自體的比例拉高那當然這個自體6%是不是要再往上我覺得這當然大家可以綜合來想對當然我們也希望說自體的人數可以盡量再增加那自體的這個比例增加那當然也希望資源提早這個上限也可以研議一下是不是可以再做提高那可以增加我們勞工這一方面的收益 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13507.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13515.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
那也希望這部分部長也盡快幫我們評估也希望看有機會在這個會期有沒有辦法提出來處理一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13519.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13539.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
因為的確跟退休金相關的制度涉及到的層面真的比較廣所以我們會在能做的部分或者我們研議相對可行性比較高的部分先趕快來做這部分我們會用這個態度希望部長針對這部分幫我們好好評估如果可以的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13540.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13568.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
尽快来提出我想我们最大的目的还是希望劳工的整体的退休金或实质的退休金能够增加我想这是最大的目的对因为这个也是很多而且这个字体来讲听说很多劳工基本上几乎大家都是支持的那也希望说这部长针对这一部分做评估能够如果可以的话尽快来帮我们来评估来尽量把这个比例来调高是好那还有请问一下我们目前有推动 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13569.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13578.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
台灣資安卡對好像在108年就開始提出推動那當初提出台灣資安卡的目的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13580.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13604.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
當初其實當然是希望能夠給我們的營造工地的勞工多一些在這個在職安意識上面的經驗尤其是一些無一定雇主的勞工因為他們流動性高對那職安卡我們我們職安卡教育教育訓練的課程跟我們一般營造業他在勞工在開始施作前 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13605.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13622.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
他上的安全衛生教育訓練這應該是一樣的對不對應該是有重疊啦應該幾乎可以說應該都是一樣的嘛各位報告他是特別針對營造業常常發生的一些災害類型去做一些安全衛生的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13624.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13646.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
對那可是為什麼他有職安卡那雇主又還是要求他去上這個教育訓練這不是重疊嗎我們當初職安卡的目的就是希望像一些沒有特定雇主的沒有特定雇主那他已經去上過了所以他就有這職安卡他下次再換一個地方工作的時候就不應該再去重複受訓浪費他的時間吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13648.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13662.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
跟委員說明我們其實就是因為考慮到這樣所以我們才希望在今年要上路的這個減災計畫裡面那我們認為政府應該要在治安卡的推動跟訓練上面多擔負一些責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13663.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13682.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
就是如果把一些這些營造業的勞工所需要的安全衛生的概念其實透過政府的推動跟資源讓他有了以後可能雇主他可以針對他反而他針對他自己特定工地的需求再去做特定工地的訓練這樣子然後盡量減少那個重複的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13683.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13711.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
對啊我說當初推這個職安卡就是一個證明嘛那表示你再換一個僱主我有提供這個職安卡表示這相關的教育訓練我已經上過了可是也有很多人在反映我們在修法裡面並沒有直接禁止說這個僱主要求勞工再一直去上這訓練課程我們當初發這個卡就是希望不要一直重複去上尤其有些移工他有語言的隔閡那都已經上過了結果還要 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13713.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13739.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
雇主還要求他用自己的時間再去上課那我是認為說應該我們就已經有資安卡了那雇主又一直要求要去上課這對當初發資安卡的目的就是不要重複訓練嘛對 所以這個上課的這個課程的效率我們就是希望接下來能夠也做出一些改變啦那尤其最基礎的部分透過資安卡的掌握那他們有些這些基礎的概念我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13741.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13759.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
這是一個基礎的那另外如果要再更進階的或更特定的工程現場的那僱主可以再自己特別做自己的安排這樣子對 而且好像我們職安卡的目的就是說在118年以後我們在營建業這些工地如果沒有職安卡是不是就不能進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13762.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13781.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
不是到不能進去啦對但是但我們是希望能夠完成訓練然後但不過這部分我們其實在這個這個會有一個緩衝期對因為我看好像你們目的是希望在118年開始推動沒有資產卡就無法就不讓他進去施工嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13783.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13812.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
不是法令不是這樣規定啊不是這樣規定但是我們希望就是讓資安卡更普及對啊那當然我們目前看到從108年開始實施到114年年底這6年的時間其實好像只有26萬那好像部長說在118年的時候開始希望有50萬那你有辦法前面6年才26萬那你有辦法在3年的時間就把它達到50萬嗎我們希望今年到30萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13813.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13830.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
所以我們是樂觀其成啦可是也希望你們提出一個完善的計畫因為目前你看六年才達到26萬然後你要縮短一半的時間達到前面六年的時間你有這個信心嗎我們是抱持 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13831.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13852.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
樂觀的態度這不只是樂觀啊其實因為營造業的治安問題真的嚴重對啊所以應該要訂定一個期程嗎一個計劃因為真的嚴重所以我們希望要用最積極的態度所以其實同學也非常努力在改進跟執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13853.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13876.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
那我請問一下你針對營造業以後其他行業你有打算嗎因為我看好像有時候除了營造業以外我看製造業好像也有這些職災的死亡好像也是影響很大跟委員說明因為營造業第一個的確我們現在看到在營造業現場發生事故的機會比較高第二個因為營造業常常勞工在營造業其實它是一個流動的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13877.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13900.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
那製造業相比起來它是在一個固定的廠房裡面固定的場域那製造業當然我們也會有針對製造業包括火災防爆包括一些機械捲匣的部分要提出強化的措施這部分也會有但它的性質跟類型會跟營造業是很不一樣那可以請部長針對這後面啟程一些工作計畫你怎麼樣達到這50萬可以給我們看一下這個計畫好 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13904.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13932.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
謝謝朱建基委員發言 接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言二主席 在黨委員先進 列席的政務機關首長 官員會長 工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生 邀請洪部長還有勞基金局書局長以及福祉退休司的黃司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13937.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13963.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
麻煩三位好謝謝中委部長好 那麼局長好 市長好來 今天大家都在關心勞退我的題目勞退救治要代鄉投靠增收益充水庫新制自選年輕勞工共享成長果實來本席跟包括承認勞動部次長的郭國公委員我們在4月17號就開了一個記者會部長要瞭解吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13964.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13976.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
我們那時候在關心的就是說目前仍在職的就職下的在職職工他有沒有辦法增加他的退休權益那先請教一下部長勞退的就職跟薪資退休前的退休金在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13978.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14000.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
舊置的話他是在台銀的帳戶但是這是在雇主的台銀帳戶裡面是新置是在個人帳戶裡面是所以說我可以這樣簡化說舊置他在勞工退休的時候會公司會提撥然後呢在這之前他的公司的小金庫啦我說台銀的帳戶嘛等於是公司的小金庫那如果是個人的話呢就放在政府的大金庫就是我們勞退的基金可不可以這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14002.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14015.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
應該是這樣說大概是這樣但是如果是在公司那邊的時候公司都把他的都準備撥他的退休金拿來操作的話他的收益是歸誰但他不是自操 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14016.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14035.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
他是基金我也要講的是說這是公司公司的嘛是不是就是說我說公司就是歸給雇主嘛但是新製的呢是歸給勞工是不是這樣子但是在這個圖上新製的是政府鈔對舊製的是基金啦也是政府鈔但是那哪一個績效等的比較高 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14038.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14056.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
差不多因為郭柏文委員他提出來是說好像這一塊呢績效高這邊績效一般雖然最近績效不錯啦但是整個來講分論不太一樣一個是雇主拿走了一個是勞工拿到了可是這樣說但是其實效益是差不多的效益如果差不多但是拿到錢的人不一樣啊一個是雇主啊好所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14058.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14083.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
所以來下一頁所以我們之前勞動部也大家一直在討論那麼假如說還有11萬5的純就職勞工還在在職可是他可能已經到達45個基數是上限了或者說他已經屆齡可以到退休年齡了依法公司他要把這個錢幫他提組是不是這樣子但是他這個時候不管什麼時候退 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14084.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14101.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
足了就是足了不可能再往上累積了但是呢他吃不到投資的收益所以他的退休金的成長就暫停了是不是這樣那我們現在呢如果讓他在雙方同意之下帶到我們新制的基金水庫那麼未來他的收益是不是還可以拿到 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14103.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14120.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
剛剛委員在講是說當這個舊置存舊置的老公他在滿退休條件之後雇主就有法定的義務要把他在這個階段提足提足但是這個時候不一定都會達到45個基礎上限 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14120.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14146.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
對 但是兩種表現都可以成就對 那可以那當然如果接下來因為我知道委員跟現在一些工會在建議的是就是如果讓他們這個在舊置的賬戶台銀賬戶裡面累積的退休金那讓他可以有機會到新的這邊來開一個戶那讓在這裡面的投資就會變成是這個投資的效益跟投資的累積就變成是個人老公可以所有部長會支持嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14148.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14174.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
我們是很正向看待這部分很正向看待好那請問一下往下看那可是呢我們還是有個問題啦儘管你說兩邊的收益差不多但是如果我們一看目前我們不管是新舊制的勞退跟勞保它的收益率比起大盤來講是差一截啦是不是這樣子那個哪位講雖然我們就最近賺很多啦但是比起大盤來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14176.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14192.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
還是少賺了一些啦報告委員我們退休基金我們政府的基金我們在操作上會考慮到長期所以我們不是只有投資台股那我們會建議不宜跟只有跟台股跟台灣的大盤比嘛也不要只跟0050比啦對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14195.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14208.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
所以我們這個基金性質特殊比較保守是應該的也沒有比較保守我們很穩健那我們如果保守跟穩健是同一副我們如果台股跟台股比其實我們應該是績效很好我沒有在質疑你選股的能力我只是說從投資的角度來看可能我們的基金的操作是比較穩健或者保守好往下看好那現在來了那為什麼剛剛有很多委員在討論說為什麼我們的字體的覆蓋率不高 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14222.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14228.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
而且呢自體者呢都提到6%而且都是屬於什麼都是屬於平均性是6萬6的部長為什麼年輕的勞工他不參加自體 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14232.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14253.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
跟委員說明第一個我自己覺得可能不一定是年輕勞工但是的確我們在把或者說低薪勞工資料分析起來的話的確低薪的勞工但他會覺得說他一個月他的薪資比較低的狀況他還要拿出個一兩千塊對他來講他可能會覺得壓力比較大是這部分主要是我們認為比較主要的原因是這個是倒不一定只是因為年輕或年長 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14254.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14282.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
可能是因為他的收入較少可支配所得較少所以最好的方法就是提高他的薪資所得但是我們也知道自體對這些相對薪資所得較低的勞工是更重要的保障對不對也可能他認為投資率太低其實可以給他們的幫助是有很多低薪的勞工他反而自己去買零股買0050為什麼你說他因為薪資所得較低他就放棄了理財嗎不會啊他想要投報率要高一點是不是這樣子所以如果要提高自體的意願 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14283.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14311.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
那有沒有可能我們增加一個選項 自選的選項也就是說目前我們的新制是屬於保證收益的那我們知道私效的制度是有穩健型跟積極型那未來有沒有可能在我們的勞退的基金的管理上可以開把私效的制度架在上面讓勞工來選他也可以選我們原來新制的保證收益他也可以選類似私效制度的這個積極型跟穩健型您覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14312.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14332.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
跟委員說沒有因為這當然是勞工的錢那尤其是因為就像委員知道他其實是有保證收益的那因為他是有保證收益所以連動起來的話其實就會比較是由政府來做但是如果他願意選擇類似像私校的制度呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14333.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14349.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
那他要放棄保證收益當然當然就是他的選擇嘛現在去買0050的也是啊沒有保證收益的啊所以很多的勞工相對不是高薪的勞工他也買0050啊跟我的說明我覺得這部分確實會需要比較審慎的是就是因為你的這句話我下一頁就幫你講了會有什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14350.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14376.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
不要說年輕啦叫低薪的小資族一起團購他可以得到團體的保障遇到什麼問題如果有開放自選可能原來的大水庫的水位會下降這也是為什麼我們希望說讓舊資結清後來增加他的水位這就是代價投靠的目的但是呢另外社會黨的質疑是說沒有保證收益我不要那沒有保證收益的你就進入什麼進入原來薪資的基本底嘛保底的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14377.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14403.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
另外一個有人說這樣是幫助金融業者的獲利最多但是我是覺得這些部分勞工有分成有可能去買零股的沒有時間去看這個投資理財的反而是這些能力跟時間較缺乏的人更需要政府制度性的保障換言之現在的較低所得的勞工呢又分成兩種一種是他沒有想要去高等投資理財你不理財財不理你他的退休保障就沒有辦法得到保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14403.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14414.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
所以是不是我們可以請勞動部呢幫這些相對他比較沒有這個時間跟能力去為自己的退休做投資理財的也開放一個政府集體性的制度保障集體性的制度保障對就是多一個讓他來參加我們的自體然後在這個自體當中他有一些自選的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14427.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14446.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
跟委員說第一個我們是很希望我們的確是希望再用各種方式在鼓勵大家多願意來自體讓大家讓尤其是低薪勞工願意自體我想這部分我會持續來努力看能不能設計出更多的誘因這部分我們會來進行那委員現在在講到的就是說勞退但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14447.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14463.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
我們不會說他叫做轉新制因為就像我們那時候在開記者會的內容轉新制的意思是他不是我用錯了應該說他的代鄉投靠人家跟你買我結清舊制年資我來把我的退休金拿來投靠新制他還是舊制的身份他還是舊制沒有轉新制對不起應該說 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14466.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14488.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
轉投新智基金啦轉投新智基金比較重要轉投新智基金多三個字好那這個部分可以評估嗎評估到的規模跟效益這部分我們當然我們現在其實已經我是很正面的看待這個是我先讓你們一個評估好不好對好第二個那麼勞退自選的可能性會遇到三個問題這個是四個問題三個問題這三個問題是不是你們一起來納入評估給本席一個書面的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14489.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14509.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
好 我想給評估報告應該是沒有問題沒問題但的確這部分我們是比較審慎一點是 但是就你們提評估報告比較審慎就提評估報告那比較積極的我希望你們提預期規模跟效益好不好好好 那兩個月內好可以 謝謝主席 謝謝部長謝謝局長 謝謝市長好 謝謝宗教兵委員的發言接下來我們休息30分鐘到1點10分 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
16454.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
16477.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
好 現在開會 接下來請郭玉琴委員發言謝謝主席 那有請這個治安署林玉堂署長謝謝 謝謝署長不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
16481.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
16509.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
署長午安我想接下來我要來討論的就是跟這個影視的質案有關那我想在這個4月份我們有跟其他的一些影視的一些平台包含電視那這個影視局他們也做了一個討論那我想剛剛之前我已經在這個樓下文化部的部分我已經問過了但現在我覺得真正的這個關鍵就是它的這個拍攝現場其實是會一直不斷地改變跟輪動 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
16510.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
16527.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
這跟一般我們所謂的面對所謂的這個勞動的一個條件跟環境其實是影視的產業是相當的不同那原本可能只是走位但是如果現場可能突然加高了所謂的這個高空 水域 爆破等等這就是我一直不斷地在強調的 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
16528.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
16545.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
如果我們的制度還是只有停留在所謂的一次性的申報但是在現場是很容易失靈而且會失準那我想第一題我就想請教一下那之前其實我們有特別提到說要建立所謂的高風險拍攝的一個事前通報的一個機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
16546.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
16575.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
那這個勞動部這邊其實也有說到要補足這個勞檢人力沒有辦法及時進場這樣的一個問題啦就關於人力的部分喔那我想請教的是這個高風險作業的定義那麼目前針對影視的文化的工作那包含他們的這些高風險作業的一個定義有沒有一些具體化的一個就是規範然後再來就是修法跟這個制度的一個命令目前的進度在哪裡大概什麼時候可以正式上路這是第一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
16581.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
16597.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
確實這個影視作業的這個目前他的這個作業形態跟我們一般在場場的作業形態是明顯的不同所以我們這一次在經過上市委員主持的這個座談會以後我們已經跟影視局還有相關的工協會跟職業工會也討論過 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
16599.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
16609.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
是什麼樣的一個高風險作業必須要先自己做好風險的評估高風險的這個定義我們定義出來了嗎跟委員報告我們高風險是從過去災害類型比較高的像墜落像這次發生的那個高空墜落還有水域爆破 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
16622.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
16643.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
這個三大部分目前是比較有共識的那就是說在作業前他先做好風險評估然後呢他的期程也讓我們知道那我們才有辦法去做有沒有給他們一個期程所謂的期程的部分委員剛剛提的是說什麼時候上路那是我們這個法規預計7月1號會實施但是這個條文會有一個緩衝因為緩衝畢竟他要適應嘛目前我們的緩衝是 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
16650.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
16669.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
我們是緩衝半年半年的時間緩衝等於說半年當中我們可能再加上一些調整然後進現場去看那人力的部分我們有沒有補足就是說我們這個勞檢的人力的部分我想之前其實就是勞動部這邊也有提到就是人力進現場的一個問題這個部分有規劃嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
16672.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
16681.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
有 我們也經營這次職安法的修法我們也已經提報的這個修法的人力計畫那目前正準備要送去到行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
16682.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
16709.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
好 那第二個問題其實我擔心的就是因為影視現場它其實不是固定的形態它不是固定的形態那當劇組如果他臨時會改變拍攝的場景或者是他更改所謂的這個比較高風險的動作那這個通報制度有沒有也跟著輪動或者是有沒有這樣子的一個動態的更新的一個機制因為通常實務上我們會擔心說他早上報一套 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
16710.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
16724.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
可是可能下午他其實整個所有的場景跟他要拍攝的一個內容可能就會開始變更了那如果說碰到這樣子的一個狀況的時候我們對於所謂的重大變更的重新的通報這個機制有沒有在我們的設計當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
16726.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
16742.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
好謝謝你的提示上次我也有提到這部分在這次法規裡面也有特別增加一項是變更時一樣要通報對要通報要通報好所以也寫在這裡是好那第三個問題我想現在最大的問題其實就是我們一直說當然他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
16742.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
16765.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
很多的劇組是為了要拍攝的進度要趕快因為其實多一點時間多一個班不管是早班晚班或者是這個午夜班他可能多一個班他就要多支出很多的這個成本但是問題是他可能就因為為了拍攝的進度在防護的措施的部分就變成是他可以降低成本的 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
16766.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
16787.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
一個範圍啦那我想這個未來我們的補助就是對於這樣子的一個補助跟所謂的違規的紀錄的勾基我們當然從一年到兩年現在已經要提升到兩年到三年了嘛這個應該就知道那目前我們跟文化部這邊有沒有橫向的連結跟借劫來掌握這些部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
16788.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
16809.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
跟委員報告 其實我們跟在上次委員主持的這個座談會後我們跟文化部已經開過至少一次到兩次的一個雙方面的跨機關的合作協調這個部分都已經在裡面討論了那文化部也希望可以跟我們的相關資料違規的資料做一些串接那我們也在做了嗎絕對配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
16811.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
16833.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
好那接下來我想談的就是剛剛我有提到特別講到這個補助喔那其實有很多的拍攝的場景或拍攝的劇的類型包含什麼長壽劇啦或者是一些所謂的八點檔是高密度的一個拍攝它風險相對的來講也高但是問題是這些是沒有拿到補助的但沒有補助會不會變成漏網之魚變成我們沒有辦法掌握到的一個現狀這個有考慮進去嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
16836.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
16846.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
跟我們報告我們現在法規裡面並不是以補助為主我們是說你有從事這樣的高風險作業就要向我們通報我們希望由業者主動通報到變成我們主動的去稽查可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
16852.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
16867.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
可以 這個部分 好不好我想這個影視的質疑還是非常至關重要好 那今天因為時間的關係 之後有一些書面的這個資料再提供給我辦公室好 謝謝署長 謝謝郭益勤委員發言 謝謝主席下來請楊耀委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
16880.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
16885.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
謝主席部長不在了是次長是不是對請一下陳次長來請陳次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
16891.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
16917.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
市長好市長上個禮拜六呢就是工廠漁工農業漁工雇主在凱道抗議大概就是希望台灣優先照顧林空窗還有生活經濟不崩盤為主軸提出了八項訴求那我現在就其中的一項跟市長做個探討就有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
16919.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
16947.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
他們的訴求裡面有一個是反對移工零付費主張移工零付費最主要是在避免經濟上的剝削可是還是有一些問題來請教你一下台美對等貿易協定中明定台灣在三年之內要禁止從事製造業和漁業的移工收取招募費和相關費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
16948.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
16968.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
也就是說該費用由僱主在僱傭契約期間內支付那這樣子是要保障移工不過相關的僱主可能就必須要吸收這筆費用那因為漁業呢我不知道你們現在跟漁業署 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
16969.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
16984.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
因為台灣是這樣子就是我國境內僱用的外籍移工屬於近海醫院工作的全部都適用勞基法那近海醫院其實的僱主 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
16985.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
17001.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
那其實在經濟上其實也是相對弱勢那我不知道你們就是就這一假如說實施移工零付費以後對於近海漁業產生的衝擊評估和降低產業的衝擊有沒有配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
17005.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
17029.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
是,跟委員報告我簡單從幾個面向來講第一個部分就是說禁止強迫勞動是IOO的國際人權標準那這部分反映在ART裡面我們也爭取到三年的調適期那在這個情況底下也就是說這三年其實是我們在對等貿易協定的談判中爭取到的我們爭取到的調適期那次長我先 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
17032.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
17037.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
跟你們建議一下就是說譬如說像這一種就是我們有爭取到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
17039.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
17063.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
相關的有利的一些規定、協定應該要讓大家知道啦要不然像因為我朋友近來一月的從事人員多嘛他們會覺得好像因為他們對於國際貿易國際的相關談判可能比較沒有概念所以我覺得假如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
17066.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
17089.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
三年的緩衝期是我們爭取到的這個應該要向大眾做說明好不好政策的說明是很重要的一件事情我跟委員完整的做說明第一個是我們爭取到三年的緩衝期第二個是陳儒委員剛才所講的他其實講的並不是要求在聘僱的時候一次要給付他說在聘僱期間要支付這個費用那回過頭來講我們覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
17092.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
17106.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
符合這樣一個IO的防止強迫勞動趨勢對僱主來講某種程度上也是好事為什麼因為移工失聯有一個很大的原因是他背負了太多的經濟債務就抵債勞務所以如果在這方面抵債我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
17107.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
17120.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
有一些實證上的經驗顯示就是說如果他沒有背負這麼大的經濟上的債務他其實失聯的動機成因就會降低很多對於我們漁船組在使用移工的部分相對而言會比較這個應該是事實對 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
17123.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
17144.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
然後對於我們進來漁業確實會有一些衝擊陳儒委員所講的我們對於漁船組會有一些衝擊那我們跟農業部這邊漁業署大家有充分在就這邊做一些處理第一個事情是我們未來會跟來源國的政府就所謂的公平招募的費用盡量讓他的項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
17145.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
17158.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
數額能夠越透明然後越符合實際越好不要中間變成有一些灌水或者是多的成分第二個部分我們也在嘗試的優化我們的職聘管道讓國隊 優化什麼管道職聘 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
17160.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
17185.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
國對國的職聘建立起來之後那基本上面他的那個所顧主所要負擔的招募成本相對的就會減低到一定的地步所以這部分我們也跟農業部在協助他們配合農漁業增加移工的名額務實的去開放的時候我們也希望一起來努力失聯的部分那所以有一個職聘的部分將來農業部不管是農業漁業都會在這邊專門會去做協助那我們也跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
17189.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
17204.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
印尼方印尼政府他也同意我們在這個有關這個相應的部分可以用職聘的角度來引進因為來源國不是只有印尼嗎是越南我們也都在談這些我們都在做相應的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
17206.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
17223.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
這中間有一些調適轉換的過程那漁業署現在也在思考重要的配套措施那這邊勞動部會跟他們一起來努力協助在這三年的緩中期讓我們的漁業漁船的船主可以盡量降低他的不適的負擔然後減低他的負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
17223.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
17251.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
負擔讓他的所要負擔的費用不要一次性的就就一開始就要付付出來那這某種程度也會解決說大家說那如果萬一他跑了那是不是我的那我們希望在這中間有一個比較完整的機制去做相應的處理我們正在跟漁業署大家在協助這個就是我剛才聽聽市長的的說明想要提出的就是是我們費用由雇主在企業企業雇傭期間內 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
17253.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
17267.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
來支付那譬如說我是三年的雇傭契約一年就變成逃獄外勞勞工那怎麼支付 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
17268.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
17290.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
所以我們就這樣講就是說第一件事情就是說如果我們走到公平招募這個地步其實移工失聯的程度就會大幅的降低那第二個部分就是萬一真的還有失聯那因為我們跟台美ART裡面我們談的並不是說在這三零緩衝期我們談的並不是說一次性就要支付我們講的是說在僱傭期間要來處理所以僱傭期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
17292.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
17299.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
如果去處理公平招募的費用的問題我們其實在跟那這個你們可能要研究一下因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
17305.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
17328.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
勞工逃逸企業可能還存在我們的漁船組就擔心說我雖然配合公民招募付了錢但是漁工如果跑了變成我兩頭落空我們有注意到這個問題我們跟漁業署、農業部會來思考完整的配搭案協助措施我們當然是一定會支持漁工 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
17329.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
17346.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
移工零付費讓他避免經濟剝削可是小型的僱主的處境我們這邊也必須要做相對應的措施事實上時間的關係我最後問你一個問題就是你剛才又提到職聘制度勞動部的職聘一直被監察院審計部認為成效不彰 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
17356.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
17370.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
就覺得勞動部把一個失靈的職聘制度當作配套措施是一個必須要檢討的課題你們職聘中心到底有沒有職聘制度有沒有辦法把它精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
17371.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
17386.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
我跟委員報告就是說執聘是一個好的制度其實韓國也在走執聘不是市長執聘制度是好的現在是你們運作上不好不是制度不好是我了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
17387.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
17414.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
謝謝所以因為這樣一個殖病制度目前的成效不彰他有一些原因第一個他可能服務的點太少第二個他可能相關的行政流程非常的複雜冗長或者是難以克服讓我們的雇主變成還要回過頭來還要委託仲介才能做所以洪部長基本上對這件事情非常的關心他有指示那個勞發署要把整個工作流程拆解 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
17414.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
17441.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
然後把所有的可能的阻塞的節點通通要逐一做檢討那包括跟跨部會要協調的事項不要譬如說我們那個有一些僱主不要讓他重複跑不同的單位這邊我們都在做那洪部長大概每兩三個禮拜就會直接來督導開會一次我們希望也許在未來兩個月左右會有一個完整的報告兩個月齁對對因為看樣子就是要讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
17443.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
17469.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
移工受到保障其實執聘制度是最快速的可是這樣子的制度你們在運作上遇到的問題包括程序怎麼簡化怎麼讓大家知道要使用這個都必須要去做一個很精進的檢討跟改進好不好謝謝委員長謝謝市長 謝謝主席謝謝楊耀偉委員發言 接下來請張阿玲委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
17477.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
17499.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
謝謝主席 我們請次長有請陳次長好 次長你好今天最主要我是想要來跟您討論有關於我們的這個育嬰的這個議題是等一下 好沒有關係 節目還沒有出來那就是說最主要就是說我們最近可以看到我們育嬰留庭的這一個以日慶嘛今年在元月上路之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
17499.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
17518.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
男性的比例增加了16.5%整個成長到了44%我覺得這是一個非常好的一個激勵因為其實就是保持了更多的彈性其實是可以讓更多的男性願意來參與育兒的事務然後也可以更得到所謂的兩性平權性別平權的這件事情那但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
17519.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
17544.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
我想要再爭取的一件事情就是說暈暈流停只有到3歲那之前我有看到討論到6歲但是我想要跟您爭取的是到12歲原因是什麼原因是說小孩子不會在6歲以後就不生病了吧對不對小孩子也不會說在6歲以後他就可以單獨在家裡嘛對不對所以那6歲之後家長生病的時候還是要去學校帶回還是會因為流感各種原因他必須要在家裡好幾天來顧小孩 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
17545.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
17571.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
所以如果只到三歲的話那到底上小學之後誰來育兒那再來另外一個問題我覺得也需要考量的是我們現在的兒少呢其實在十歲的時候九歲十歲就會進入一個所謂的前青春期那前青春期的性身心的變化其實非常的大那是不是也可以讓家長可以有更多的時間來陪伴所以呢我才會希望說我們的這個育嬰留庭是不是可以到十二歲讓家長有更多的彈性可以參與陪伴孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
17571.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
17592.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
不曉得市長您的看法是什麼跟委員報告就是有關於談刑運營留庭在過往的實施經驗上來看其實對家長是一大的幫助今年開始我們談刑運營留庭可以以日申請確實我們對沒關係這部分我們都清楚了我只想聽12歲的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
17593.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
17614.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
本來原來是0到3歲那我知道各位委員還有大家家長都有很多的意見希望是不是可以可以增加到6歲增加到12歲那這天洪部長在早上答詢也說我們會正面的來檢討考量這個問題那至於說是6歲還12歲那這邊我們可以再仔細的在政策評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
17616.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
17639.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
就是會做政策評估那我就是希望可以把這一部分一併的評估下來那再來第二個部分就是說我們的談性工時這件事情談性工時我們現在在性工法第19條裡面有可以減免透過勞資協商減免一小時但是大家看社群其實都會知道其實那一小時要跟勞資協商非常非常的困難那所以我自己在想我們在醫院流停 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
17639.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
17659.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
當開始在示範也是一個示範計畫開始嘛那我們是不是可以有更多的政策引導來鼓勵我們的企業往這個方向來走那同時呢因為我們在淵流停之前就是說我們勞動部去年也有講說我們會補助這個雇主的部分有一些補貼那這個部分其實我得到很多中小企業主的肯定啦他們認為就是說部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
17661.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
17688.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
政府們在思考這個政策的時候沒有只有要求他們來吸收所以我也想知道說這個彈性工時是不是也可以一併來做調整有一些更積極的鼓勵的方案呢這邊跟委員報告早上洪部長在答詢的時候也有提到說怎麼樣思考讓彈性運營流停更方便更好用更符合家家長和業界的期待是我們努力的目標那所以我們都正向來看待 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
17688.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
17716.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
但是確實他也會涉及到他會涉及到企業端負擔會涉及到如果這個縮減工時一小時的時候這個事情事務工作到底可不可以處理那誰來做這部分可能不同的業界不同的情況需要做完整的評估所以勞動部在這件事情上面會覺得在配套的部分需要做更完整細緻的思考和設計所以我們為了處理這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
17717.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
17735.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
好但是我希望還是要從一個角度來提供給勞動部就是說我們現在願意生養的孩子非常非常的少對不對所以我們國家有少子化的危機那目前現在這也是整個國家包含其他國家都也非常關注這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
17737.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
17761.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
那既然我們的孩子已經生了這麼少那這些願意生養的家庭不就應該得到更多的支持嗎因為他們就會支持了國家未來的勞動力跟國家未來的經濟發展所以我認為我們應該要更積極的去從他們的困境上面來協助他們因為這個等於不然就說好了我們雖然說鼓勵大家生小孩可是所有的支持很多家長的感受就是到小學之後就通通都沒有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
17762.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
17784.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
那這個小學之後或者是說所有的成本我全部都要自己去承擔所有的困難我都要自己扛起來因為坦白講我們現在小學的一般的社團下課時間大概就是5點半如果可以彈性工時的話那家長就可以在5點左右的時間去接小孩所以我希望還是可以更積極的啦包含不管是職帶的部分是不是有一些職帶獎金或是代理支持呢這部分是不是可以從這個角度一起來思考呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
17785.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
17809.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
整個配套的措施我們會來完整的做那有預計到什麼時候會有一些初步的規劃嗎這部分我們可能需要一點時間大概多久的時間可以給我們一個你們初步的方向規劃等等的這部分我們會努力的來做完整的評估但是時間上面可能我們要再多聽取大家的意見因為確實不同的產業別它的情況會有一些差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
17810.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
17828.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
同意理解我完全理解啦那不然這樣好了我們就一個月之後好不好再來請你們跟我們報告相關的進度好不好好謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員發言謝依鳳委員謝依鳳委員謝依鳳委員不在邱志偉委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
17828.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
17839.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員不在吳思耀委員 吳思耀委員 吳思耀委員不在沈伯洋委員 沈伯洋委員 沈伯洋委員不在接著請陳盈委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
17852.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
17861.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
部長好像跑了什麼大事因為那個行政院開會好吧那放他一馬那個那次長嗎有請陳次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
17867.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
17884.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
你好次長好今天是勞動部的業務報告也是這個預算巡打那我想就目前勞動部最受關注的一些這個外勞聘僱的問題來向次長請教那我想先請大家看看第一張投影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
17885.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
17904.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
這是外籍勞工職聘中心的網站裡面有非常多的宣導檔案幾乎所有的檔案都是由勞動力發展署跟外勞職聘中心一起掛名的我想要請教一下這個職聘中心是勞動部的正式單位嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
17905.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
17930.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
不是 執聘中心是我們一個任務編組是一個任務型的公務單位好 那本席查了一下這個執聘中心是由這個勞動力發展署以這個勞務採購那由中小企業總會來承作115年採購金額是5300萬元那想要請教一下目前執聘中心全國總共有幾個辦公室 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
17932.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
17949.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
目前殖民中心大概台北然後我們發展的彰化跟高雄三個目前有三個那有多少的這個專任的聘僱人力等一下我我等一下對不起你剛剛次長剛剛講是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
17952.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
17966.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
現有總共就有三個我們本來是只有台北一個今年新設的彰化跟高雄就最近成立的所以現在有已經加了那有多少人力本來有多少人力現在要加到多少人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
17967.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
17983.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
包委員那台北中心總共有36人那我們彰化中心有8人那我們高雄中心有7人好那因為這個中小企業總會他同時也是外國人申請案件外包計畫的這個承包單位嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
17984.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
18006.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
那它更是這個技能檢定就業服務還有移工留才久用青年就業旗艦幾乎所有你們發展署的重要業務都是由中小企業總會來承作每年超過10億的預算超過20個重大的計畫那我想請教一下勞動部你們有評估過他們每一個計畫的績效嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
18008.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
18025.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
跟委員報告第一個部分就是說我們所有的採購案件當然都是一定要依照政府採購法的規定來進行那第二部分就是說在標規的規定一定都有履約的部分那履約的部分針對履約的內容來做管理才會有付費的付款的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
18026.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
18044.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
至於說這裡面如果哪一個特別的事項我們委員有指教的話我們可以再來仔細的來不是啊你沒有回答我的問題啊我是問你就你們在每個計畫績效就是有沒有去評估它的績效有沒有檢討評估它的績效嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
18050.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
18070.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
報告委員那我們每個方案我們其實都是依政府採購法那還有我們在採購的時候我們都依契約的規定來進行履約然後要求這個廠商必須要符合我們採購的這個要求你有要求那有沒有達標所以要評估要看有跟沒有而已我的問題沒有很困難如果沒有就說沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
18071.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
18087.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
不是因為因為很抱歉因為我沒有那個應該說從沒有那麼catch我人的問題就是說那你們三個一起都沒有catch我的問題從履約管理上來看如果他沒有達到合約的要求當然就是違約有罰則有扣款有各方面的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
18090.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
18107.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
好我們再來看一下有一個本席比較不解的採購案叫做110這是110年度及111年度外國人申請案件處理業務的外包計劃是在今年115年 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
18109.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
18131.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
3月1號才決標那金額是1億3千1百萬元那本席想要請教就是為什麼四五年前的這個外國人申請外包計畫現在才要發包然後然後就是那你這幾年業務是完全停擺的嗎然後還有112年113年決標了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
18136.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
18162.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
包委那我們這個是屬於我們事務中心這邊受理外國人申請的時候那一些申請案件的一些執行細節案件的這個外包的方案那針對過去的這標我們是以兩年為一個採購的一個流程所以在剛剛委員所垂詢的1213其實我們都有持續透過外包方案來處理那這個整個外包流程都依照政府採購法規定來進行發報 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
18165.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
18173.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
那所以为什么为什么110年度跟111年度的115年3月1号才绝标 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
18177.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
18201.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
這個可能我是我們回去查清楚再來跟我們報因為我看起來他這裡寫一個更正公告所以是不是那裡面有一些內容你們查清楚嗎因為你看喔現在都110年喔110跟111然後115然後絕標然後我就會質疑那你的112跟113年 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
18203.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
18214.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
是再晚一點才會決標 還是比他們更早決標 我就搞不懂所以我剛剛提的問題 麻煩你們做會後一併回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
18216.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
18242.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
那我們再回到職聘中心的業務看一下這個你們網站上的內容其實幾乎都是業務宣導看不到服務統計的數字而且在你們發展署公務網站上它也有相同的資訊所以對民眾而言從網站上要看到符合需求的資訊然後要書表下載要準備好資料送件 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
18243.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
18249.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
其實非常非常的複雜跟困難那光是下載的書表你們有算過多少嗎超過200種耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
18253.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
18280.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
是 包括因為整個申請移工的流程裡面它包括了各個類別的不同它所謂出招重招各個細節所以它申請書表確實是比較多但是我們現在會持續來強化如何讓它簡化這個申請的流程跟書表你有講到重點啦就是說我現在隨便講你們通常要上網去申請個什麼如果你看到那裡有超過200個書表你光找 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
18281.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
18295.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
你連關鍵字要搜尋你都不知道要輸入什麼了所以我就會很懷疑就是說那一般民眾有辦法這樣上線去申請嗎我不知道次長你自己有沒有申請過我沒有申請過部長有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
18296.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
18318.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
應該沒有不過謝謝委員指導啦我們確實知道說職聘中心在這職聘方案裡面有一些地方不夠清淨不是你們不要忘了職聘中心它的本意是什麼它最終的目的最初的目的是什麼你就是要直接方便嘛所以現在我們真的有一個專案在針對職聘的流程在做檢討優化我問你喔就是說如果你們有沒有想過說在這個過程當中民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
18327.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
18347.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
有沒有民眾是因為你們的網頁設計過於複雜結果最後放棄申請然後他們又回到仲介或者是一窩蜂就直接衝到這個執聘中心找專人處理所以難怪部長說下令還要再多開幾家 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
18348.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
18362.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
所以這是我們要去檢討優化的部分就是如何讓整個職聘的流程讓我們一般的中小微的事業單位或個人的僱主可以方便好用所以我才會剛剛前面問 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
18365.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
18380.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
你20個重大計畫這些你們有沒有做評估它的績效那這個就很明顯啊你們如果前面都有在檢討應該早就改進了嘛因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
18381.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
18399.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
我講到這個我就會想說好如果如果是績效很差你有沒有想過這一年5300萬的預算你是不是直接就補助給民眾去申請這樣子會比較快大家都開心對不對你也不會浪費政府5300萬的預算在那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
18404.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
18423.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
其實我們也上網搜尋了這個職聘的優缺點從AI得到的答案是直接聘僱外籍勞工的主要優點是節省仲介服務費但是他也有可能在後面會花費更多的律師費跟罰款 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
18425.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
18450.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
好那雖然說雖然他減輕了這個移工來台的負擔但缺點是你們自己講的行政程序繁瑣然後需要自行處理的這個語言溝通還有這個住宿的管理如果說發生這些失聯勞資糾紛或者是其他一些緊急的突發狀況的時候或緊急事件那僱主他是需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
18452.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
18463.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
獨立去面對這些法律風險跟這個管理壓力的所以可見你們這些行政流程很繁瑣已經是這個整個執聘制度一個最大的難題 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
18465.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
18494.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
你們勞動部要怎麼解決這個問題我跟委員報告就是洪部長非常在意這個職聘中心的如何能夠更貼近民眾的需要所以我們把所有職聘的流程逐一來拆解然後發現了有十幾個節點我們針對這些節點逐一來做檢討案調整那原因都是要讓我們的事業單位也好讓我們個人雇主也好在這一方面能夠有一個簡便好用方便的 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
18495.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
18507.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
的一個途徑可以來使用我來問一下好了就是你們今年才多成立兩個嘛那所以前面成立的第一個的時候部長來之前你們有檢討過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
18509.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
18528.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
我們之所以殖病中心因為現階段只有一個台北就變成所有的人都要跑台北嘛所以我們基本上就是先擴大一個分區有幾個分區的中心然後接下來我們會在我們各地的不是啦等一下啦我很不喜歡你們在這裡跟我打太極然後不針對問題回答大家在立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
18529.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
18544.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
你們 你是老鳥 我也是老鳥的齁那個 針對問題直接回答問題沒有很複雜 我是說在在 你們做我的疑問是說好 你成立一家的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
18546.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
18567.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
你都沒有做全面性的檢討為什麼會人力不足那肯定你搞的那個上網很複雜所以民眾就一窩蜂會跑去嘛不是嗎那你光開一個你都不好好檢討先把它整個問題解決之後你再去開分店 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
18567.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
18585.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
你一家老店你就一大堆問題了然後你趕著開分店我覺得你們是這個整個程序是怪怪的啊謝謝文指教啦但是因為其實真的只有在台北一家無論如何都是滿足不了大家的需要那我們在相應的職聘的部分一方面在分區設的點 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
18586.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
18611.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
那另外一方面也正如委員所指教的我們將來希望推線上推單一窗口然後讓大家不一定要親自到現場就能服務但是在現階段而言我們很多的問題需要同一個時間分別的去做處理但沒有辦法等到說一個問題改善了再往下一個步驟因為目前是目前是這樣就是說你你第一個點你們解決的點 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
18612.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
18632.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
只有說我多開設幾個店但是造成人家麻煩的真正問題你們都沒有解決所以你們開了更多讓更多的問題這個加倍加速的散播出去其實你們我相信他的誠意啦但我更希望看到他的成效啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
18633.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
18657.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
就是職聘還有一個很嚴重的風險就是法令掌握不易那外籍勞工他的相關法規他還有這個救福法、勞基金法變動快啊那如果稍有不慎說漏半的文件或者預期了那雇主可能要面臨的就是6萬到30萬的高額罰款嘛而且法令上也不允許說 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
18659.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
18674.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
直接就是說對雇主來免責所以到時候不要說我們好像大家為了就是省了那個仲介費然後付了這個預期罰款或者是說執聘中心可以扮演仲介的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
18676.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
18700.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
謝謝委員 委員確實看到問題的重點那洪部長也理解到這一塊是應該要解決的問題所以如何讓雇主知道法令的規定我們如何去給雇主足夠的支持甚至於對於雇主自己辦理的情況如果有一些刑刑是不是可以為罪的部分可以再做一些檢罰免罰各方面的處理這部分我們正在盤點當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
18701.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
18727.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
那所以我剛剛講說你們執聘中心正在扮演仲介的功能嘛那主動協助所以就是說這個有沒有主動協助然後可以不用被罰這個是你們自己要對這個很重要啊那你們再問一下114年台東這個直接聘僱的這個使用率是多少總共有幾件 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
18729.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
18755.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
我們14年服務的雇主人數有8887人 直聘中心台中分中心我們在今年2月台東我們南部的分點是設置在高雄 但是我們高雄的服務據點可以擴大到我覺得你們這一組人很奇怪啦 主席不好意思我沒有要 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
18756.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
18782.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
我實在不想我等一下也有事情我沒有想要占用很多時間可是這些人你們為什麼上來都要在那邊繞圈圈問題是有跟沒有幾件數字而已或知道不知道這樣而已啊你要跟我扯到高雄然後扯到台中去然後南部又幾家中部又幾家不好意思這個部分數字我們會後再來提供所以就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
18784.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
18794.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
等一下那個好啦我要趕快結束那主席可以先請坐一下嗎你知道我會腦筋思緒很亂不好意思喔那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
18796.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
18820.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
我想最重要的我還是希望可以知道說職聘中心的實際成效那去年114年服務有多少件成功引進多少件你剛剛有稍微講了一下嘛那都是哪些類別的外籍勞工那引進後的管理啊有沒有逃逸啊你們現在目前我都可以馬上抓出數字嗎可以嗎可以還是不行好 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
18822.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
18828.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
那還有就是這個外籍勞工如果生病或懷孕的時候執聘中心你們要怎麼處理你可以馬上回答嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
18831.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
18853.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
包委員那如果移工有涉及到懷孕的部分我們會跟這個來源國駐台代表處那還有我們有這個非營利組織這邊的安置中心來合作那對於有這個懷孕的移工他如果雇主沒有辦法申請他的這個照顧責任那我們會跟非營利組織來合作那來協助你講你還要找別人合作是不是你沒辦法處理的意思啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
18854.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
18871.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
所以我剛點這幾個然後都是預算執行績效這都跟這個有關都是有關係的所以勞動部你們有責任公開執聘中心的實際成效那本席要在這裡要求就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
18872.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
18887.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
96年到114年的這個成效的這個評估那你們兩個禮拜要給我而且更重要的事情歷年來透過職聘中心申請而衍生的裁罰案件和訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
18889.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
18917.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
總共建樹費用是多少你們好好算一算這是很重要的數據那我就是請你們要做好這些評估不然我真的要具體建議就是說你們就是說不要一直就是說又想要去批評否定仲介但是你們又沒有辦法去提供比仲介好的服務去取代仲介 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
18919.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
18944.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
如果說真的不行的話那你們真的要好好考慮本席的建議就是說直接把職聘中心的這個整個預算直接加惠在民眾的身上我想這個更能夠彰顯部長的這個德政跟人心啦不好意思 我還跟委員報告兩件事第一個是說勞動部從來不否認仲介是有相當的貢獻的我們也從來沒有意思要消滅仲介這個制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
18949.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
18965.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
那第二個部分是剛才委員所講的希望我們從民國九十幾年九十六年提供到現在那橫跨的時間比較長是不是多給我們一點時間那你兩個禮拜後可不可以先給我近兩年的然後前面你們再好好整理好好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
18967.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
18983.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
好 謝謝陳英武委員的發言林倩琦委員 林倩琦委員 林倩琦委員不在本日會議詢答全部結束委員沈伯陽 邱志偉所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊論公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
18984.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
19000.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
現做以下決定及決議一 報告說明及詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及於答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
19001.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
19015.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
三中華民國一百一十五年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管公務及基金預算及所屬財政法人預算書案令則其繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝 |